Comments by "wvu05" (@wvu05) on "Why 'Force the Vote' Failed Miserably" video.

  1. I'll take "It was never a plan or good faith effort" for 100, Alex.
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  2. Well, I think it says a lot that her first project after Bernie was called Bad Faith, and she somehow managed to alienate the nicest, most forgiving man in national politics.
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  3.  @1neomonkey  Michael Brooks said that anyone who lives in a swing state should vote for Biden... and he said so repeatedly. Tells all we need to know about your honesty.
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  4. On TMBS, in August 2019, while Warren was clearly rising in the polls and almost ready to take the pole position, she said that Bernie was her first choice was Bernie and Warren was her second choice? I guess you're the one with the memory hole.
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  5.  @2727rogers  Why not support Force the Vote? If we "hold Congress to their word," 27% of the House and 13% of the Senate support it. You don't get a second chance with something that would fail that miserably. Not only that, but you alienate the people who might support you on something positive. It is high risk/no reward. Thank you for proving Emma's point about bad faith actors who conflate support for a tactic with support for a bill.
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  6.  @2727rogers  Did you do any actual work to get healthcare in your country, or are you like the guy who I debated last week who rested on the hard work of Clement Attlee and thinks that he is an expert on how to get it? I don't know how I can make it any clearer: there are 118 supporters in the House. This is exactly 100 votes shy of what we need to pass it in the House. There are 13 supporters in the Senate, which is 38 shy if it can go through budget reconciliation and 47 if you can't. How does forcing a vote that will fail miserably which will make it that much harder to pass change anything? The ask is to have a vote, not to pass. Maybe if you stopped acting in such bad faith, you might understand my argument, but you don't want to, because you would rather have your high horse.
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  7.  @ashesmandalay1762  What else does it say that she managed to alienate the nicest and most forgiving person in national politics? Now, we can see more of the why in action.
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  8.  @ellenstonehill678  *Tulsi, who not only opposed Medicare for All, but did so in a way that spread misinformation about what it actually was, calling one of the key elements of it "un-American," and is now partnering with PragerU. At least Michael Bloomberg was honest about his awfulness.
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  9. I think that she sees that her pathway to relevance is fading, and she is trying to get some of that cheddar before she becomes a trivia question.
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  10.  @joshuaknepshield4687  Then, you remember wrong.
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  11.  @joshuaknepshield4687  She didn't admit any of that stuff until after Emma said that Bernie was her first choice, and Tulsi had abandoned Medicare for All long before Dore supported her. A lot of us were predicting that she would go full mask off by the time her term ended, but I must admit that I was wrong. I thought she would go to Fox for their money instead of PragerU.
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  12.  @joshuaknepshield4687  "Bernie is my first choice." Emma Vigeland, Aug. 2019 I don't know how much clearer she could be.
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  13.  @joshuaknepshield4687  Even if we grant that she was dishonest from the start about PAC money, that isn't nearly as bad as calling Medicare for All un-American, going on a photo op to prop up a dictator who gassed his own people, praising another who killed protesters, having a relationship to a fascist that is even stronger than Trump's to Putin, and endorsing a war crime. And note that I limited it to things she did before Jimmy Dore endorsed her.
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  14.  @jshooper7819  Indeed. For all of the talk of how the protest the day of the Speaker election was going to get covered and force their hands, I would have never known there was a protest but for people online bragging about it.
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  15.  @deathstriker9076  You mean being mad at the woman who spent the whole campaign trying to win over Republican voters, who told Anderson Cooper that Bernie's health care plan was "un-American," and spread libel that Ilhan Omar stole her seat? You mean they're still mad at her? Gee, I wonder why.
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  16.  @2727rogers  No, the way you got your program was a) having a Parliamentary system rather than a Presidential system b) with much greater party discipline, and c) the NDP winning control of a province. It wasn't because Tommy Douglas kept forcing votes that he knew would fail.
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  17.  @2727rogers  How would it be helpful to reduce support? A lot of those may very well be soft support, but the time to deal with that is after you get to 218 and turn the Soft Yes into a Hard Yes. Being purer than thou accomplishes nothing.
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  18.  @2727rogers  If the majority of Americans are not also Hard Yes, how do you explain that the support gets cut in half depending on how the question is worded? And how can those numbers for support be counted on if a majority thinks that you get to keep competing private insurance? If Medicare for All was an issue where support leads to votes, Bernie would be President now.
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  19.  @aozf05  Dave Rubin said he was on the left for years, and at one point insisted that he still supported lefty positions while using his show to trash the left. If you spend all your time going after the left, and actively try to defeat people on the left, you are part of the right. Either you are controlled opposition who is trying to divide the left, or you are a useful idiot. Which one did you think they are?
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  20. @G R So, you think that punishing Democrats, which is clearly your goal, is going to make things better? Oh, yes, because the Republicans are going to make things better. You mean some third party is going to save us all? Yeah, that's going to happen.
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  21.  @2727rogers  I agree that you personally have a passive aggressive arrogance, and unless you are 80, you almost certainly did nothing to earn Medicare. You're not the left-wing paradise you make yourself out to be. You have some good things, but not as many as your reputation suggests.
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  22.  @Habeebea  Sam was very clear about his problems with the strategy, and she just kept going back to "your viewers were mean!" She may be good as a press secretary, but she is a terrible strategist. Is she going to be the Bob Shrum of the 21st century?
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  23.  @joshuaknepshield4687  And she backed off from it by then. She only embraced it again once she got desperate.
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  24.  @joshuaknepshield4687  Well, not really surprising given that Emma seems like the kind of person who would be drawn to detailed white papers. In fairness, a lot of the sheen did seem to come off in Emma's mind after she asked her about her vote for the NDAA despite complaining about its price tag and the influence of Raytheon, and the answer almost seemed like a subconscious confession that she got bought.
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  25.  @b.d.a.8719  The plan is to do the actual grassroots organizing to get to 218 & 50. Then, just to make sure those 218 & 50 aren't Soft Yes, you then put the pressure to get them to sign a discharge petition, which means it is almost certainly guaranteed to pass. Pretending that demanding a vote when supermajorities in both Houses are opposed will lead to Medicare for All is Underpants Gnomes stuff.
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  26.  @halcyonacoustic7366  Gee, I thought it was because only people who supported demanding a vote that they know will fail are the real supporters of Medicare for All. It's obvious that all you want is chaos.
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  27.  @aozf05  You mean that it's easier to have a strategy of doing nothing than it is to get something positive passed? No!
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  28.  @billbo747  And Parliamentary systems are different than Presidential systems. You got it because the NDP took over a province.
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  29.  @billbo747  Ah, the old trying to save face when you know you have lost the argument. I will continue to do the actual work until we get the sponsor list to 218 & 50, and then those of us doing the actual work will apply the pressure to make those Soft Yes into Hard Yes so we can get it done.
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  30.  @whoismsv8066  Do you listen to people who call you an evil sellout and prove that they are acting in bad faith?
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  31.  @bellyhead67  There is plenty of good reason for not doing it. He knew it was going to fail, and all it was designed to do was to meet his long term goal of discrediting all Democrats and helping Republicans because he thinks that will mean some brand new party will suddenly rise from the ashes. It also poisons the well for any other efforts to get anything passed. Do you want to get things passed, or do you want to become a reverse Freedom Caucus?
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  32.  @georgewbiden2821  You mean the video where she just kept repeating the same thing over and over again no matter how many times Sam tried to say it, and she kept misrepresenting his position? I had the same reaction as her cohost and left after 45 minutes. I guess by your logic, I can't comment because I didn't want to sit through another 2:45 of drivel.
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  33.  @deathstriker9076  Williamson wasn't running to trash everyone except Joe Biden, either. She was running because she had something to say that represented something on the left that no one else had. And Tulsi did affect things, negatively, when she went on Dave Rubin's show and said that she was the only candidate who loved America. When he tried nonsense against Marianne Williamson, she pushed back in a way that even his loyal, right-wing audience noticed. Marianne brought vision, and Tulsi brought spite. No one is saying that comedians can't talk about politics. We're saying that wilfully uninformed people should stop hiding behind their day job when they get criticized for their dumb takes. I've never heard Sam Seder say, "What do I know? I'm just a guy who did a Sex and the City episode" or "I'm not an expert, I just do the voice of Hugo."
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  34.  @ashesmandalay1762  I think she was one of the people who insisted that 30% support could win the nomination because the field would stay divided. Then again, she now seems to be going down the third party dead end, so strategy clearly isn't her strength.
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  35.  @willdasilva4459  The most amusing ones are the ones who get all upset when you point out that he takes money from Assad, and then actually show the documents.
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  36. You mean the thing the Treasury Department proposed years ago has finally happened? No!
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  37.  @Cancellator5000  Indeed. You can't admit that it will fail and then insist that its opponents don't want Medicare for All.
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  38.  @raptorreddelta3986  Almost like she was acting in bad faith.
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  39.  @captkiprogue  I think that person is clearly a troll, because all of those comments on multiple threads have disappeared.
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  40. I tried to watch the debate, I really did, but I got so sick and tired of hearing the host of Bad Faith living up to the title of her podcast and repeatedly misrepresent Sam's position, and those of us who (accurately) pointed out that step two was either non-existent or based on a total fallacy, so after 45 minutes, I turned it off.
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  41.  @georgewbiden2821  She said that Sam changed his mind for personal reasons. Sam never said that he wanted Force the Vote. He said to use something for leverage, but he seemed to be leaning toward committees.
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  42.  @Dan0TheMano  Impeachment is literally following their oath. How many people were at that big rally on the 3rd that was supposed to change everything?
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  43.  @Dan0TheMano  I think it's an indictment of the arrogance that thinking that a protest that no one outside the internet knew about was going to work. If this was more than an internet echo chamber, why not give an estimate?
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  44.  @Dan0TheMano  50 people? I was told this was going to be a big earth shattering thing that the MSM would have to pay attention to. I am not belittling the effort, just pointing out that this is what happens when people confuse online activism with actual organizing. If you're not talking to people close by you with a specific call to action, you aren't organizing. If you're not organizing, you're not going to get anything.
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  45.  @Dan0TheMano  Those of us who opposed force the vote did so because we knew that it would absolutely not pass even if you got your demand of a vote. The semi-honest people in this group admitted it. I would much rather devote my efforts to building actual support for the bill rather than posturing. Feelings about the people pushing this was not my motivation.
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  46.  @deadbutworking  Write letters, make calls, sign petitions. Oh, but that involves actual work.
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  47. @scirpus 123 YouTube didn't exist until 2005. If winning the Internet meant you would be President, why didn't we see President Dean, President Paul, or President Bernie? Why did Yang and Tulsi go precisely nowhere and get exactly one delegate between them?
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  48. @scirpus 123 The point was about political movements. In the United States, the Internet is little more than an echo chamber and an ATM. Someone was telling me ahead of time on these fora about this big protest that was supposed to move the needle on Force the Vote. End result? 50 people showed up. (DSA got more people to show up to knock on doors to get people to do actual action for M4A monthly from July to February.) If anything, the internet is counterproductive because it fools people into thinking they are doing something instead of actually doing it.
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  49. @scirpus 123 As far as question two, it was only good as a communication tool. If people didn't actually do the work, then it would have gone as far as the campaigns that I mentioned. Re: Belarus, people still organized without the internet, so that defeats your whole argument.
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  50. @scirpus 123 If the Internet didn't prove mostly to be a distraction, how do you explain that so few people pushing Force the Vote actually did direct action and pretty much nobody did actual organizing? A turnout of 50 for something that is supposed to be a nationwide protest is embarrassing.
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  51.  @y3ee3e  And a majority (51% of opponents, 55% of supporters) literally think they can have private insurance with Medicare for All. We have a lot more education to do.
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  52.  @ckpalmeiras1318  That's not how it works in Canada, and that's not how it works in Bernie and Jayapal's bill, which is the one that these concern trolls are saying we need to push a vote on. It bans private insurance for things that Medicare for All pays for. Thank you for proving my point that we need to have an education campaign before we push for a vote so there isn't any backlash for people who feel like they were duped or were just expressing vague support for universal healthcare but balk at the details.
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  53.  @ckpalmeiras1318  No, it's not. Perhaps you may not have understood my original post, but Medicare for All is not a generic term for universal healthcare. It is a specific bill that is being sponsored in Congress with Bernie as the lead sponsor in the Senate, and Pramila Jayapal as the lead sponsor in the House. That bill specifically bans competing private insurance. What your particular system looks like is completely irrelevant to that question. If a majority of people think it doesn't, or that it is a generic term for universal healthcare, then any attempt to push that particular bill will fail.
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  54.  @billbo747  Doesn't change the fact that it is far different with FPTP and a Presidential system. Even if we were to switch to a Parliamentary system, the Republicans would never split, so they'd still win large majorities.
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  55.  @billbo747  Agreed, but a third party is a dead end in this country. The one possible avenue for success is to take over one of the major parties, and if you look at their records over the last century and the last few years, there is only one answer to which one we can take over.
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  56.  @billbo747  What is this "we" talk? You didn't do squat. If you think a dozen or so people out of over 200 can complete a "hostile takeover," you don't understand how math works.
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  57.  @billbo747  It takes 218 votes. I can say with absolute certainty that a dozen < 218.
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  58.  @billbo747  I can say with absolutely certainty that she didn't guarantee Medicare for All, and her effort has been finding more sympathetic votes in the House, unlike someone who thinks that a couple dozen people holding their breath will accomplish anything. Funny how so many people who actually got things handed to them don't understand the work involved. Does it make Bernie a liar that he has been talking about Medicare for All for the last 30 years in Congress?
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  59.  @billbo747  Bernie never said that he would do it alone, and Bernie is actually pushing to get things done instead of people line you who brag about what was handed to you as though you had anything to do with it. AOC eventually realized that forcing the vote was a stupid tactic, and good for you. Should people be forced to keep every bad idea they ever had, or should they learn and grow?
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  60.  @bellyhead67  You don't think that the man who said that Trump would be better than Hillary, talked up the Green Party, called AOC a sellout before she ever took office, called Cori Bush a sellout without pointing to anything other than that she got elected with a D behind her name, started talking up forming a new third party, and started this with the goal of "exposing Democrats as frauds" isn't trying to destroy the Democratic Party? How much more evidence do you need? And do not compare MLK to this fraudster. It is an insult to his memory and his legacy. MLK had actual goals and actually organized people so they could realize those goals. Did he call LBJ a sellout because he didn't put voting in the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Did he trivialize the Supreme Court? Oh, yes, Rosa Parks wrote a tweet that just galvanized everyone, and that's what caused the whole movement. I forgot.
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  61.  @bellyhead67  English translation: I made a bogus comparison, lots of people on my side have made that same bogus comparison, and I don't like that someone pointed out that I made such a ridiculous comparison. MLK also didn't try to force a civil rights vote after the Montgomery Bus Boycott. And literally everything that I said Jimmy Dore did is true. If he isn't trying to destroy the Democratic Party, what do you call it?
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  62.  @whoismsv8066  Indeed. Which means an awful lot of suffering before the supposed true lefties take over. Then again, he sees how much money the Green Party takes from its mark, so he wants his own sweet cash to pay for his $2MM house.
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  63.  @deathstriker9076  Also, Tulsi is not anti-war. She is an isolationist. Not remotely the same. No one anti-war supports torture or ever has. We were critical of Tulsi because she was a fake. Her platform was to the right of every candidate not named Michael Bloomberg, and she appealed to the farthest right wing crowd in the primary. The way her cult treated her also had a role to play, which is also part of why there was a lot of criticism about Yang and pointing out that his UBI is right wing. Yes, AOC talked about forcing a vote before she got elected, but eventually she realized it was a stupid idea. Do you want her to have to stick to a stupid strategy for life?
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  64.  @deathstriker9076  If you are going to demand leverage, something that is guaranteed to fail is stupid. Use it for something you can get. Paygo was got.
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  65.  @deathstriker9076  We already have a list. We know it will fail. So, in exchange for getting something that is meaningless, given that you will get people giving a lot of fake Yes (which leads to demagogues like Tulsi Gabbard fooling people even as she is raising money for PragerU), you are destroying the goodwill of people you need to actually get things done. We are not the Freedom Caucus. We want things done. You just want to stop everything so you can pretend to be pure.
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  66.  @grmpEqweer  Oh, they were pretty bad by the 1920s. They had already embraced their hard right economic theories by then, and they were just less bad than Democrats on civil rights by then. The GOP's plaudits on civil rights pretty much stopped after 1877, and they completely went to the dark side in 1964.
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  67. Sometimes, I wonder if those of us on the left have a problem of beggars can't be choosers as far as why so many people pull the same grift.
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  68.  @joshuaknepshield4687  August is after July.
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  69.  @ChickenLeg0423  Did a majority support it? Or was it a vocal minority?
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  70.  @sergeikhripun  And would forcing a vote that was guaranteed to fail give a single person health insurance?
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  71.  @ryanisbelle6107  And she realized that she was wrong. It takes an adult to admit his/her mistakes. This argument also ignores the fact that there is a thing called a sponsor list that does hold people accountable or catch and release. There are three possible results if the vote is forced. 1) The sponsor list is accurate, and the bill fails spectacularly. 2) The Soft Yes members become Hard No, and you're farther away than before. 3) Pelosi uses catch and release and lets some of the more vulnerable incumbents in lefty districts vote Yes knowing that it will fail. Of course, those people will never vote Yes when it actually has a chance, so you are missing an easier chance to get a real supporter of the bill in the district. There was no grassroots movement behind this, as evidenced by my half of the conversation with the Dore Knob who deleted his comments. This was virtue signaling at its worst. If you really think it was going to work, how did Hillarycare go the second time around? Or the Nixon plan?
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  72.  @billbo747  Thank you. This is something that I and many others will never give up on as long as we have energy left in our bodies.
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  73.  @eminentbishop1325  I was part of a grassroots group that actually got a member of Congress (Brendan Boyle) to sign on to Medicare for All, G. If you don't think that it takes an actual grassroots effort to get things done, you are like that John Mayer song, but if you keep waiting on the world to change, you will have a long wait.
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  74. @G R You're the one talking about Democrats losing the majority as a result of Force the Vote, as though through some magical wish that this will be your long game and people will demand massive change and get it. As the Bush and Trump years have proven, too many become scared to dream and just want the worst of the worst gone.
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  75.  @blazedones  Gillet was a Republican. Why do so many of you keep repeating that he was a Democrat? And you can talk about leverage all you want, but if you ask for too much, you alienate people who just want to get to work. Do you want to work towards getting the gavel, or do you just want to be the reverse Freedom Caucus?
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  76.  @aes0p895  Hence, "less bad." The Republican Party had mostly abandoned civil rights, and Harding was one of those six million. I didn't say Democrats were better, but that the 1920s GOP didn't earn the label of good.
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