Comments by "Hunterchuck" (@Hunterchuck) on "Bhaskar Sunkara: Socialism and Communism | Lex Fridman Podcast #349" video.

  1.  @brianbagnall3029  Sure, I'll name what really lifted people out of poverty. It's called Socialism. There's a reason why Socialism became a thing in the first place and it's because in capitalism people were still in poverty. Do you think the Russians did their soviet revolution for fun and giggles? Do you not know about the thousands of other revolutions and battles that were fought because capitalism was so bad? Never heard of the battle of Blair Mountain? You think capitalism started off with the 40 hour work week, vacation time, sick days, decent pay (for some jobs anyway), a weekend? Learn some history lol
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  2. Workplace democracy is merely a different way of doing business, but not at all the point that socialist make. Socialist have always pointed out the flaws between the relationship of owners and workers and sure enough given suggestions such as worker place democracy as a solution to those problems. If you are not able to understand the socialist stance then you are doing very well for yourself and we are happy to hear that. Your circumstances don't reflect others though so just be aware of that. For example, the railroad workers went on strike for better working conditions and got snubbed really bad because the company they work for asked the government to threaten them. Workers in many industries have been struggling quite a bit for a long time and honestly it's the main reason why you are in a good position for yourself. Don't you think if it wasn't for working class people rising up and demanding better, you would probably work in a coal mine or factory for 12+hours and still not have enough to put bread on the table? Things are better thanks to the fight the working class puts up.
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  3.  @The_Rude_French_Canadian  Has America become so pathetic that all people can do is make excuses for problems and not bother fixing them? This nation has truly fallen since the days we reached the moon for the first time.
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  4. What about the Nordic model terrifies you? You mentioned taxes but the average person in these nations only pay around 5% to 10% more depending on variables and they get lots of expenses paid off that a typical American cannot afford. It doesn't sound bad to me so fill me in.
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  5. I'm not sure where you got your perspective from but socialism and capitalism don't have anything to do with government. These two terms are specifically describing how the economy is organized. Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production, so basically a small group of people control how the economy works and obviously benefit the most from their decisions. Socialism is collective ownership of the means of production, which is the working class democratically running the business. Socialism was primarily a critique on capitalism first and foremost. A great quote by a great mind puts things into perspective: "The purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein
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  6. That's not what the guest was saying at all lol I mean you are right that there is no such thing as true freedom. Socialism's greatest weakpoint is the same one that comes with a democracy. The many will determine how things are done and the few who disagree will have to abide by that ruling. But if that frightens you then the only other alternative is that a few rule the many. I suppose it's a pick your poison situation. right now, the few rule the many and the many are starting to have a problem with it whether they call themselves socialist or not. That's just how the power struggle goes my friend lol
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  7. Yeah he doesn't represent me (i'm a socialist) but it's good to have people like him roam around talking about the problems of capitalism and pointing to examples of success that we can adopt. Nothing wrong with that.
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  8. Yes you are.
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  9. Collective companies are thousands around the world. In the U.S.A alone there are around 300 businesses that are collectively owned. The reason why there aren't as many as you might believe there should be is because: A) People don't know about them. B) People don't know how to get them started C) People might not want to start a collective business because they seem more complex D) It's much easier and practical to start a typical private business, for the same reasons why it's much easier to have a dictatorship than a direct democracy. There's a reason why direct democracy only existed in 508 B.C for a handful of years. It requires a great deal more to actually function than one person ruling over others from a throne.
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  10. You got your info from the wrong place. It's probably better to not play telephone with peoples ideas. Instead, be an honest person and actually investigate what socialist are actually talking about. The Russians put a scar on your face, now you can take some time to heal and wipe that red scar away. Also, do a better job listening. He didn't say that people would be forced to work less hours. He's simply saying that people shouldn't need to be forced to work 40 hours or more every week. There's no freedom in being forced to work long hours.
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  11.  @hime273  You're telling a socialist that is well read on the subject that they are confused. This is funny, thanks. Let me give you a little treat for giving me a good laugh. Karl Marx talked about labor and the value that workers bring to a business which he called "surplus value", or in other words profit. So to put it plainly in an easy way for you to understand, i'll give you an example of the socialist critique on capitalism: There are two stores of a business and one business gets more traffic than another. This means that the workers in that store are becoming more productive from this higher traffic and in turn, the store makes a greater profit. Why then in capitalism do the employees of both stores get paid the exact same as if they are doing the same exact workload? Shouldn't people who are more productive see the success they are bringing to the business reflected in their paycheck? Why does the profits only go straight to the top, only making the owner ever richer?
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  12. Historical facts seem to conflict with your narrative though. Socialism started as a critique on capitalism and socialist have always been the critics of capitalism. Karl Marx wouldn't have written the communist manifesto if things worked the way you probably imagine. As stated in the communist manifesto, "Workers of the world unite! You only have your chains to lose!", and when you look at history the working class did just that. Many revolutions and battles were fought because capitalism has been so bad. It's not like the Russians decided to do the soviet revolution for fun and giggles. You can argue that how they went about it afterwards was wrong and can make a good case since what the Russians did is definitely full of problems. But to say socialism is the problem is clearly a lack of understanding on your part. Even in America there has been countless revolutions and battles because of capitalism. Ever heard of the battle of Blair Mountain? Anyone with a brain understands what socialism is. "The real purpose of Socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein, from 'Why Socialism?'
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  13. You're welcome to try your hand with me. Ask and drill away. There is a lot of education to be had with a conversation like this.
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  14. You have done well to acknowledge that Capitalism has flaws but you are forgetting the elephant in the room and don't seem to have listened to what is being said. 1. Flaws that can be fixed, should indeed be fixed. 2. Democratic Socialism is just another way of saying "Social Democracy", which is basically the Nordic model. This isn't actually socialism at all. 3. Capitalism had way more flaws then it does now thanks to the working class rising up and fighting for these changes that we now benefit from. A brief look at history, even reading about what caused the soviet revolution will show you clearly how bad capitalism used to be. 4. The fight for better conditions and an economy that works for everyone, not just a few, still continues and will do so as long as the economy remains lopsided.
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  15.  @alexanderg8466  "So you don't think the poor can compete if they work and save money.. Socialist LOVE victims and undermine people dividing them into Oppressed and oppressor's. Have a little faith on people." ---Your narrative of poor people competing doesn't reflect reality. I don't see any examples of poor competing with rich anywhere. Sounds utopian. "Poor people or workers these days WILL NEVER have a company.. Because the system is for the rich who have a lot of money to pay lawyers and politians and other rich people." --- oh wait nevermind. You basically contradicted yourself immediately lol "The current capitalist system is for the rich." --- That's the point lol. Also, you said that capitalism is the best system as if it doesn't need to be fixed. You keep swinging back and forth between capitalism being great and then horrible. You seem very confused but i'd say i've already spent enough time on this with you. We are already getting into silly back and forth rants when i was originally seeing if you could see the major flaw with capitalism in my first comment. You failed the test immediately but i tried to see if i could salvage something with you but was wrong. This convo will go no where and i see that. Good talk though.
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  16. You are the lowest common denominator and he didn't appeal to you at all. So, false.
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  17.  @lukejohnson7282  Maybe you were unaware of this but when people talk about collective ownership, they are talking about the working class owning the businesses in a democratic way. I just told you about worker cooperatives. These kinds of businesses have existed for many years and so far they statistically keep proving to be better in every way compared to a standard privately owned business.
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  18.  @lukejohnson7282  Uhhhhh, no. He said he favors collective ownership by the working class and mentioned businesses with that model in mind as worker cooperatives. You clearly didn't listen....
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  19.  @senseofmindshow  I see that you edited your comment to attempt to answer my earlier question. But it's still illogical because there isn't any real world examples of these businesses being forced onto people by government. I'm talking about how the real world works, not some fantasy lala land. So I ask again, how do people not achieve what they want from their business in a worker cooperative? Edit: Dude. You gotta stop editing your one comment over and over again. Are you hoping that i'm not noticing it? With each change to your argument by erasing and adding anew, you are still wrong. You're dishonest as heck lol
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  20.  @senseofmindshow  Wait what? How are we going from worker cooperatives to government? And you only repeated what he said and didn't answer my question.
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  21.  @derek_jesio  I like this "Capitalism gives the workers that choice" remark by you. So what about a democratic workplace would prevent people from forming their company the way they want? I look forward to your response.
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  22.  @chrisjanis_kiloterra  " I do not trust our elected leaders to handle my taxes now let alone then. I would rather all my taxes be decided at the local and state level." ---- Excuse me, what? You don't trust your elected officials with your taxes but you do trust them at the same time??? "Taxes are an investment into the community but I have zero say on how they’re spent." ---- Exactly. So tell me what you want your taxes to be spent on.
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  23. That's not true at all and you know that. Go ahead and test your theory yourself and see how hard it is even to get on welfare, let alone how much the government will give you. You will also have to prove that you have been applying for a job every month, which they will indeed fact check, much like how aggressive the IRS can be. I was in the military and i can't count the times the government didn't pay me and I had to wait on back pay. If you believe the government that doesn't even pay much social security to retired people and barely pays military folk on time, somehow treats unemployed people like kings and queens, then you're a looney.
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  24. Maybe he doesn't because he's clearly talking about the Nordic model where people aren't suffering under some kind of "regime".
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  25. Lofty aspirations? So when he mentions the Nordic model of the Scandinavian nations, this is what you call a "lofty aspiration"? When he mentions the worker cooperative businesses that exist as examples of collective ownership in practice, this is also "lofty aspirations"? Can you explain further for me why you believe this? You made very confusing statements and I've become curious.
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  26. Yeah, those were built by Aliens 100%
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  27. It wont change his perspective if he owned a business. I can confirm as a business owner myself who pro socialist. This is why I decided to work for myself in the first place rather than continue to work hard for someone else to live a better life than me.
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  28. If you're talking about worker owned businesses, there are already thousands of examples of them. I shop at a local grocery store that is worker owned all the time because they have the cheapest prices and I like to support that kind of business. Instead of outright rejecting what people have to say, try listening and even doing a bit of research into it. Be an adult for a change.
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  29. Nice lie that is easy to fact check. Your love for America is cute though
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  30. Capitalism = murder, thievery, and starvation. 1. One example of murder is found with the battle of Blair Mountain where coal miners went on strike from terrible working conditions and the business owner bought private planes to drop home made bombs on the workers, which was the first time bombs were dropped on American soil. The government was called in to finish the job. 2. One example of thievery is when workers in two different stores of a business get paid the same as if they are doing the same exact workload when both stores clearly do not get the same amount of traffic. It's not a mystery why these business owners and CEO's make so many millions. 3. One example of starvation is the many studies that are a quick google away showing that about 1 billion people are malnourished and the number of starving people is in the 100's of millions currently due to businesses creating artificial scarcity so they can engage in profiteering.
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  31. Well yeah his definition avoided government all together. If you're confused about that then you really need to educate yourself on what socialism is. I'll never understand why people put so much stock in how the Russians defined it after the soviet revolution. Sure, the Russian idea became very popular and many nations adopted it but that's just not it chief, sorry.
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  32.  @WhiteWolf126  There's a channel that's got a whole lot of videos on businesses taking advantage of workers. Just look up Joshua Fluke. Also, you are clearly not addressing the question which makes sense for someone who clearly has no answers. My example is definitely based in reality. Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that all of these stores get the same amount of traffic and make the same amount of profit? Your argument so far has just simply been that people that work certain jobs don't deserve much pay. This is fine if you want to stick to your guns with this but then that means you automatically failed and you're done here. I move back to the original poster of this thread and see if they can do better.
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  33. Honestly you have it completely backwards. It's not socialist that need to convince you of anything. Socialist are critics of capitalism and they have done nothing but point out the endless problems with capitalism. We don't need you to steel man our arguments at all and let me give you a very simple example of the socialist perspective to make it crystal clear for you. There are two McDonald's stores and one of the stores gets more traffic than another. This means that one of the stores is becoming more productive and generating more profit for the business. Why then in capitalism do employees of both stores get paid the same as if they are doing the exact same workload? Why does the surplus of the profits go straight to the business owner, CEO's and wallstreet instead of in the pockets of the workers who are actually being more productive and generating the business more profit?
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  34. Stop listening to them and leaving your 2 cents that nobody wants or needs. You said nothing useful at all.
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  35. I think you should pay a bit more attention to what socialist have been talking about and the history behind the socialist movements. You should also learn a bit of history about Russia to gain a better understanding of why things turned out the way it did. Russians back then were illiterate and books of socialism were burned and anyone who talked of socialism were publicly executed, so it should be no shocker that Russians were not sure what socialism even was and decided to do a centralized government run economy. Russia then spread their ideas of "socialism/communism" around the world and so the nations that we refer to as socialist or communist are that in name only. The majority of people don't understand the details of history so it's understandable why I see such a confused remark like your comment.
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  36. Not at all. He's referring to systems that already have been working. He's a democratic socialist which means he's more of a Nordic model supporter. I don't see how you can argue with something that is honestly superior to how America is.
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  37. highly doubt he's as nuts as you though, so i like him.
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  38.  @zunuf  1. The employee did not agree to those wages. If they had the option of actually negotiating, then they would be asking for more. Your statement seems ignorant to how things actually work. Most companies set the wages and since the supply of working bodies needing work is so high, there is no room for negotiation. Otherwise, the company will hire someone else instead. 2. This is yet another ignorant statement. Do you have any idea how much income the store takes in? Your statement would only make sense here if the profit was on razer thin margins. 3. same as #2 4. Now you are getting into socialist territory. In a worker cooperative, the workers have a share of the business and therefore are stakeholders of the business. Their success is tied to the business. 6. "Why shouldn't the employee that sales more burgers get paid more than the one that doesn't?" ---- If you had the ability to understand my question, then you'd know that's exactly what I'm asking. In Capitalism everyone gets paid the same no matter how efficient and productive they are. The profits go straight to the top, which is called exploitation of the working class. Also, you're completely wrong about risk. Workers take on the risk of the horrible decisions their boss makes. They take a huge loss when the business fires them for mistakes the business made. There's been a youtube channel that pointed out situations like that more times than I can count. 7. Because I'm seeing if any Naysayers of the socialist perspective have any good arguments for Capitalism. I'm seeing if I can find an argument that both answers my questions and makes me think. So far I've been disappointed but I still have fun regardless.
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  39. Well there are a lot of people who have no choice but to think that way. The reason why is because workers in America zero power in a lot of industries. The only way they can gain some leverage to negotiate a fair contract is if everyone unionized. There are nations that don't even have a minimum wage because the economy is full of strong worker unions. Here's the socialist position which comes from the point Marx was saying: There are two McDonald's stores and one store gets more traffic than another. That means that the workers in one store are producing more value to the business than the other. Why then in capitalism do employees of both stores get paid the exact same as if they are doing the exact same workload? Should the workers not see the success they bring to a business reflected in their paycheck? Why does the surplus value only go straight to the top?
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  40. Einstein himself disagrees with you. He wrote a nice little letter to you before he died called "Why Socialism?" Give him a read. Also, your statement doesn't even make sense. You need to listen and understand what is being said a bit better.
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  41. I mean...... Right now people are actually forced to give their labor to some hippie POS. If you don't work then you can't buy the things you need like food. And you certainly wouldn't be able to make sure to pay your landlord your hard earned money so they can have that lovely passive income.
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  42. Soooo....... When he mentions the Nordic model of the Scandinavian nations, i suppose you can show me over one hundred million deaths and hundreds of millions suffering in these nations? Hmmmm. I don't even think these nations combined have a population of a hundred million so i'm a bit confused. When he mentions worker cooperative businesses, that exist all over the world including in America, I surely can expect you to show me millions of deaths from these terrifying businesses, correct?
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  43. You're dead wrong on that. These nations have a large population of people who are favorable to socialism. Recently in Brazil, they elected a socialist president after their previous dictator. What most of the people in the nations really want is for America to stop interfering with their country so much. Not to mention, socialism isn't even about government and nations. It's about making sure the working class doesn't keep getting screwed over by the rich elites in society. Governments full of rich elites that have control of the economy will obvious go against the working class. People will have to learn that one way or another. Most tend to have to learn things the hard way.
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  44. Cool.
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  45. I have no clue at all how you even came to the conclusion that the ones siding with capitalism articulate arguments better. I have had many debates and not one person who sides with capitalism makes a convincing case. The socialist argument is very simple and i'll give you a simple example to make it crystal clear as well. There are two McDonald's stores and one store gets more traffic than another. That means that the workers in one store are producing more value to the business than the other. Why then in capitalism do employees of both stores get paid the exact same as if they are doing the exact same workload? Should the workers not see the success they bring to a business reflected in their paycheck? Why does the surplus value only go straight to the top?
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  46. No, you're spot on. If we had a meritocracy monkeys like Elon wouldn't be in charge of Tesla, but instead someone who actually lives up to the name.
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  47. failed at every attempt? Your comment doesn't seem to make sense because you are clearly talking about the USSR brand of 'socialism' but forget that there are several nations that still have that branding and do just fine such as China, Vietnam and Cuba. I would say Russia still since even though they shaved away the USSR branding, their government remained the same, but their not doing so hot right now. As far as "Workers of the world, Unite!" as Karl Marx said in the Communist manifesto, all the facts show that Socialism has been a great success. The working class throughout history did just that and have made tons of progress for our economic climate right now. How are you enjoying your work-life balance? Pretty good right? You making a decent paycheck? You get some vacation time? Sweet right?
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  48.  @semsomify  "Just don't make them laws and force others to live according to what you think is the right solution for social and economic issues." I'm sorry to break this bad news to you but what you don't want already exists. Right now the system that everyone is forced to live by is forced upon them. It's even to the extent that if you don't make enough money to pay the over priced bills and buy food, then you don't deserve to have a home or eat. If someone is contributing to society, why should they not deserve those bare minimums? I really don't think you understand the gravity of all of this but socialism is basically the response/criticism of these glaring issues with how things are done currently. In fact, the privilege's you currently enjoy now is thanks to the socialist movements in the past. Now you don't have to work in a factory for 12+ hours, send your child to also work in dangerous conditions to help put food on the table and so forth. Working conditions were as bad as China's current working conditions, the 9-9-6 schedule where they work from 9am till 9pm six days a week. Be happy that people complain about capitalism's problems and "force those changes into law"
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  49. Yes i'm very impressed with Lex here. You are absolutely right that the people in America have become too divided and it's a shame. I do believe the important things are making sure everyone is taken care of and can live a decent life. Too much hatred has been spread and corrupted us without our realizing. The working class encompasses both those who identify themselves on the right and left. So why are we fighting against our fellow American instead of uniting? A good question!
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  50. Which things do you not agree with socialist on?
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  51. I don't remember him saying that Denmark was a Utopia as you are acting like he is. I'll tell you what though, some of us socialist would like some convincing from you folk. Here's how you might can do it and make sure you're thorough and honest, otherwise you get ignored by every socialist. Just list all the bad stuff from both nations so we can compare and contrast. For starters: America - No healthcare, and expensive prices Demark - (supplied by you already) if unemployed for three months the government employs you. Good luck!~
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  52.  @Teste-gp7bm  That's just not a true statement based in facts at all. But i'm always happy to hear people have your perspective because it means you're doing good, and that's a good thing. We need more people doing good as well.
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  53. You didn't make a good argument even with this narrative. Do you rather them stay unemployed and become homeless and on the street? The payroll tax isn't even high in Portugal either, it's literally the same as everyone else....
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  54.  @fatmanjoh  Would you agree with me that it's easy to tell when a person has bad arguments and their thought process is flawed when they are inconsistent and off topic? I just told you that he's talking about the Nordic model and then you immediately acknowledged "...with an affordable well run welfare system." Now you are acting like what the Scandinavian nations have is a system where socialist elite are in full control and it's socialism. You need to cover that red scar on your face because we aren't interested in the USSR model in the least. Nothing socialist talk about has anything to do with what the silly Russians did and spread all over the world. Listen and pay attention fatmanjoh lol
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  55. I love fan-fictions like your comment. You should write a fantasy novel about your idea of socialism because it sounds like it will be action packed.
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  56. So the nations he's referring to that have the Nordic model are just beautiful fairy tales that cannot work? What a silly comment by you lol
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  57. You have it backwards lifebeergolf guy. At the micro level it sounds great because it currently works fantastic at the micro level. He mentioned worker cooperatives, which are employee ran companies, since you seemed to have missed that part. At a macro level we don't know yet since capitalism remains the dominate economic system throughout the world. Micro= small Macro= big
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  58. If you think socialist are trying to convince then you haven't been listening or paying attention. As was brought up in this interview, collective ownership has been a thing for many years and there are about 300 of these kinds of businesses in America. The ideas of socialism has brought about more change that has improved your life without even realizing it. If it wasn't for the socialist movements in the past, you'd be working in a factory all your life for 12+ hours and would need to send your very young children to work so that you can at least put some food on the table. Of course your child might come home with missing limbs but a small price to pay for food. You just have to hope to God your children keep returning home alive.
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  59. Back to slavery we go then.
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  60. He's not a professional psychologist or economist though. This is just a guy with opinions and he even admits in the beginning that his ideas of socialism isn't reflective of socialist and socialism. He literally stated at the start that not all socialist agree with what should be done about the many problems with capitalism. The fact of the world is that capitalism has proven to be an total failure. Socialist are critics of capitalism. If you don't like socialist then find a way to fix those problems with capitalism. Tell me how you are going to fix the issue with two stores that belong to the same business, one of the stores get more traffic than the other and yet employees in both stores get paid exactly the same. Basically no matter how hard you work, you will get paid the same regardless. How do you plan to fix that problem with capitalism bud? I look forward to your response.
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  61.  @Pteromandias  Lex is pleading with you. Why? Because he already said at the start "I will often fall short of not pushing hard enough" and even despite asking his audience to keep an open mind about this interview, he gets complaints like yours saying he didn't push hard enough. You're a bunch of whiney babies. And you're dead wrong about the right-wing. Every single rightwing comment i came upon, i responded to with the attempt at a genuine understanding. Not a single one wanted to accept that there is more to this conversation than they previously thought. You'd be no different, i'd bet on it.
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  62.  @laurakosch  Your reply now is making no sense at all. All you are saying right now is that you don't like AOC but you have no substantive reason for why AOC is not fit for the job. All you are saying is that you hate the way she talks. I'm not sure at all how this is relevant to the fact that she continues to put her money where her mouth is when she's doing her job. It's so bizarre to me that someone like AOC gets soo much hate when our government is full of some the worst corruption in the world. Hate for AOC seems like such a silly distraction from the real problem with our government lol
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  63.  @laurakosch  OK that seems like an opinion though. You're free to your own opinion of course. I personally don't care how bad someone is at speaking when they do a good job. For me, actions matter more than some grandiose speech.
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  64. Her credibility is in her job. Her job pertains to bills and which ones get passed or denied. She's got one of the best track records along with Bernie Sanders when it comes to voting on the side of the average American. Other representatives only try to pass bills for the rich so that those rich Americans continue to donate money and give them deals. Some of these politicians leave office because they already lined themselves up with high position in a corporation that they gave handouts to. There's literally no good argument against AOC when she's already head and shoulders better than the rest.
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  65. Democratic socialist are just cowards that don't want to fully commit to socialism. It's the same problem that people had when Atheism was on the rise and the cowards called themselves agnostic instead of an Atheist.
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  66. It's always welcomed to hear people with a voice at the very least constantly drilling home the point of the current economy not working for the working class. Sometimes that inspires people to actually start doing something. Unions for example have been forming recently and that's a sign of change. People have to learn how to stand up for themselves one way or another but these people talking helps encourage those that need it.
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  67.  @truthmonster3290  Indeed! Down with the democrats! Grrr! Only the republican party are the angels that care deeply for you and me! That's why they always say they support the working class and veterans. I don't know why they keep voting against us and make our lives worse. As a vet myself i was very confused by the republicans choice to turn their backs on veterans exposed to dangerous chemicals. But yeah! Republicans are great and Democrats bad! WOOHOOOO!~
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  68.  @truthmonster3290  Oh my! That sounds horrible and all this time i've been thinking the left had no power at all. We've been bashing our heads against that democrat wall for ages and somehow we stole that much and gave it to our pal Zelensky?! I guess we're kind of more amazing than i thought. wowzers
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  69.  @truthmonster3290  What do they do?
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  70. Wow he sounds like a villain in your head! Scary!
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  71. "but his solutions are to make the government the only ones allowed to be capitalists" You clearly didn't listen at all. Don't comment if you didn't pay attention please...
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  72.  @darbyohara  On a serious note instead of giving you some laughing emoji's back and trolling you back, I should fill you in on something important. Trolling only works if it's effective. Otherwise the jokes on you. If you were to explain why you think they are privately owned, I'll let you know why you're wrong and then you'd understand fully how you're the joke here lol
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  73.  @darbyohara  What? LMAO Your comment actually gave me a good laugh. Thanks man lol
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  74. "I don't think socialism would work in America" --- There are over 300 collectively owned business in America. Also, it's not about whether or not socialism works but more importantly fixing the glaring issues that we see with capitalism. All people want is some kind of checks and balances on the insane greed and exploitation of worker/consumers that capitalism continuously produces. That's literally what the conversation has always been about and i'm always surprised that this has to be repeated so much. Albert Einstein wrote a very short piece if you can't be bothered to read Karl Marx. I don't believe this is hard.
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  75. Socialist are very aware of this actually. This is why when workers go on strike, the demand and value of workers really starts to shine. CNN and other news networks started freaking out when the railroad workers went on strike for better working conditions. Workers have more power than they realize so the job of socialist is to keep reminding them because the capitalist, the real ones like our government and the ones that own the means of production and mold society to their fitting, constantly manipulate the working class to manufacture their consent to allowing things to persist.
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  76.  @ACzechManGoingHisOwnWay  Well you don't actually need to know how to be in leadership to vote on something that pertains to you directly. For example, if it comes to a vote on whether or not the company should take on certain jobs which would increase the workload but will bring in more income; That is a vote that doesn't require leadership skills to make. I'm not even close to being a leader but I have my own business and decide on what I want to do with it. I'm shy, not very smart, but I have the freedom to make decisions on how much work I'm willing to take on and what kind of work I think I'm capable of handling. I don't see why this kind of stuff requires skills in leadership or whatever.
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  77.  @mikeslemonade  If it's ideological to you then you can work for me and i'll pay you whatever little i can legally get away with. Not fair but fair is only ideological lol "The investor economics is good because it allows the market fund startups." ---- I've had many convos with you now and this is actually the first time you got something right. GOOD JOB! But sadly it doesn't change the fact that startups don't need investors. There are plenty of businesses that don't bother with investor and even need any. Some might due to the industry and the overhead cost to even get things in motion but these are niche examples. No, entrepreneurs are better off with worker cooperatives. Worker cooperatives don't tend to expand into other territories like most private businesses do. Expanding into other territories means saturating the market and therefore increasing the barrier to entry. For example, It is very hard right now to start a burger shop because the market is already too saturated with burger shops and there are quite a few of those same brands all over America. You don't know anything about how the economy actually works. You should really just stay in that one thread where I already dunked on you. You're a glutton for punishment aren't ya? lol
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  78.  @ACzechManGoingHisOwnWay  Why does a worker cooperative need everyone to be a leader and manager? I thought you knew a thing or two about worker cooperatives. You made some statements with such conviction that one would assume you knew what you were talking about....
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  79. Honestly there hasn't yet been any investigations on democratic businesses that show signs of "many practical challenges" 1. A business doesn't actually need investors to run so this is a silly point. 2. Even if someone lacks expertise, they gain it through training and practice. Every standard business still needs to train employees no matter what. So far statistically speaking, worker cooperatives have shown great resilience and perform very well in conditions where most standard businesses collapse. My assumption would be that since everyone has a stake in the business, the pool of resources from everyone makes it easier to hold the business together financially. For example, if some occurence in the market impacted the business negatively and would put the business in the hole for about $20,000, the burden of that expense is much easier to deal with when each of the 200 employees chip in about $100. The main point of a democratic workplace is making sure that business is being done fairly and not every worker cooperative is structured the same exact way. People decide how they think it's best to streamline the process for their own businesses.
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  80.  @derek_jesio  Honestly, I think you are just stuck. No matter how much i try to baby you and hold your hand you keep talking about random stuff like human nature lol I'm going to leave you with some goodies. Karl Marx mention the concept of surplus value (profit) in his labor theory of value. It goes like this: There are two stores of a business that get different traffic. Both are profitable but one store clearly gets more traffic than another. Why then in capitalism do the employees of both stores get paid the exact same as if they are doing the exact same workload? Shouldn't the workers see the success they bring to a business with their increased productivity reflected in their paycheck? Why does that success only go straight to the top? "The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein, from 'Why Socialism?'
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  81.  @derek_jesio  Apparently.
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  82.  @derek_jesio  I always love when the Dunning-Kruger effects proves true. I'm asking simple questions to lead you towards facts. But alas, you believe yourself too intellectually superior to answer simple questions. You can't blame us for asking you questions when you are putting yourself in a position where you have a lot to answer for. If capitalism is so great then why have revolutions and battles been fought over these issues of capitalism? For example, ever heard of the battle of Blair Mountain? Why did Karl Marx say "Workers of the world, Unite! You only have your chains to lose!"? There are soo many questions for me to ask you and it's your fault for putting yourself in this position.
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  83.  @derek_jesio  Not only did you avoid my earlier question, but now your new statement conflicts with your original claim. Care to explain why you've decided to acknowledge that workplace democracy does work.?
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  84.  @mindovermatter3328  So many examples of worker cooperative businesses crumbling? I haven't seen any examples as of yet and many research institutions have been investigating these businesses for a few years now. The stats show that workplace democracy makes the businesses more efficient and durable. Worker cooperatives keep proving themselves through market shocks when compared to the standard private businesses that typically ask for handouts from the government. But then again we are talking about your view of the world so I'm not sure how things are really working from your point of view.
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  85.  @mindovermatter3328  You better tell the people that own worker cooperative businesses that they are on a fools errand and their capitalist nature will come out sooner or later. I'm sure they would be grateful.
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  86.  @mindovermatter3328  Oh what a lovely way to think of capitalism. This is the first time i've heard of this kind of definition. I suppose if that's what capitalism is in your world then we are a little off topic, don't you think? lol
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  87. "We're all capitalists" Capitalist are the ones who own the means of production. Not everyone owns the means of production and therefore do the work that allows the means to produce. The Socialist stance is that there are flaws with this relationship between the owners and the workers, points those flaws out and gives a suggestion on how to fix that problem. Socialism is primarily a critique on capitalism. You can read Karl Marx, Albert Einstein or any other socialist that wrote about socialism and you will find that they all mostly give valid criticisms. We are not all capitalists.
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  88.  @hardikchoudhary1197  Dude, and I'm saying that you don't understand anything about what goes down in Russia. For one, the USSR isn't communism. Secondly, conservatism is going to be different in each nation since conservative thought is mostly about keeping things the same, along with nationalism. This means that conservatives will still be a majority in a nation that once called itself socialist. Thirdly, you keep acting like the election process in Russia is as good as America. There's no corruption? People who talk crap about Putin don't disappear? "If majority of people have voted to keep the USSR and loved to be a Communist country then why majority of them voted against the Communist presidential Candidate that ran in the 1991 election just 6 months later." --- Pay attention to historical happenings man. The referendum was put to the people for a reason because there were a lot of people unhappy with the government and its handling of situations. They voted yes to keeping the USSR but with changes to its operation. Why did Putin win popular vote against a communist party incumbent? Probably for the same reasons why someone like Trump wins over a Democrat incumbent. A recent 2018 poll showed 68% regretting the fall of the Soviet Union. The majority of Russians hate Gorbachev for what he did. The next in line, Boris Yeltsin because Gorbachev immediately retired after dissolving the USSR, made economic promises to fix the economic collapse that Gorbachev brought with the dissolution of the USSR. Now Russian leadership slanders "Communism" and its networks tell people over and over again that they are better off without the USSR. Propaganda effects peoples perspective no matter where. Right now, I'm not entirely certain that the Russian people understand how the Ukraine business is really going with how their government and news tells the narrative. How do you not know any of this? Edit: I also just now stumbled upon a gem of a video for you. Listen to these Russian people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN5BQcRf0s4 They don't feel like there is a difference most of them. Why is that? Because they didn't actually do anything differently to begin with. They did the same thing that humans did for thousands of years, which was overthrow a king to put another on the throne. Real change means doing things completely differently than what was already done.
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  89.  @hardikchoudhary1197  Guy...... Why do you keep asking me ridiculous questions? A better question is why do you think I care about anything in Russia? Because I stated a fact that most Russians voted to keep the Union and it hurt your feelings? Why is Russia conservative you ask? Don't know and don't care. Are most Russians still nostalgic of the USSR era? Yes, obviously. I literally linked a video showing a performance about the history of the USSR presented in a good light. Why would people in Russia support that if they operated the way you believe them? You don't know anything about the world around you and the people in it. You're as American as apple pie and I think we've already established this enough. Kick rocks already, you looked like a clown this whole time. I'd be embarrassed. Very Yikes
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  90.  @hardikchoudhary1197  I have no idea why you are so obsessed over the last portion of the referendum. My assumption is that it must be an American brain that fancies the words 'rights' and 'freedoms'. You completely ignore the historical context of when and why the referendum was put to vote. You also completely ignore how the voters saw it and why they voted the way they did. Oh and you also ignore what happened as soon as the referendum was voted on. There's a lot of politics involved in the whole process that you didn't even mention (maybe because you don't know) but there is a good video to explain that for you here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrNQeYYvabg So to recap, my first comment pointed out that about 80% of voters voted to keep the USSR, which is true. I also mentioned in my first post that Russia has always been authoritarian. You then take issue with my factual statement and believe that I don't understand it because you chose to hyper focus on the last part as if it was the most relevant part of the referendum. I corrected you and point out that: A) The referendum asks if the people want to maintain the Union but as a renewed federation. B) The statement "as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics" is the trick that fooled people into voting against their best interest. C) I don't even like the USSR, yet you continue to ramble on about how horrible Stalin was and yada yada. I'm done repeating this for you. Why are you so dense? Learn to read too, it's not hard.
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  91.  @hardikchoudhary1197  I did not misinterpret anything "Do you consider necessary the preservation of the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics in which the rights and freedoms of an individual of any nationality will be fully guaranteed?" It's the USSR, do you know what the USSR stands for? Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. It's literally asking if people want to preserve the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics.... How did you mess this up? You are the one who misinterpreted it just as the voters did. Read it! What does "as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics" mean? The voters wanted to keep the USSR intact but the referendum is written in a way where it suggests that the other governments in the union would become independent. This is why millions of Russians protested in the street when the USSR was dissolved after they voted yes in preserving the USSR. You are literally making the same mistake the Russians did by not reading the referendum dude. You say i'm the one who got it wrong? LMAO!
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  92.  @hardikchoudhary1197  You did well to take the time to give me what you found in wikipedia but you are making a wrong assumption, that i'm supportive how the USSR did things. I'm not sure why you took so much time to copy paste what i've already read a long time ago. It might make you feel uncomfortable but the Majority of Russians did want the USSR to continue. There have been countless interviews with Russian people that speak fondly of the time they lived in the USSR. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNGs5Ep7Xas Even events like this showing the USSR in a good light still happens in Russia because the people there take pride in that part of their history. Do you ignore how Russia feels about it because it makes you feel uncomfortable? I don't like the USSR but I won't deny that it did accomplish some great things as well. Be careful to not let your bias blind you to facts my dude.
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  93. Wait... You have to be lying because if you lived in the soviet union, you would know some things. One of those things is that more than 80% of Russians voted to keep the USSR before it was dissolved. That would make you the minority, and now that Russia isn't known as the USSR, Russia is currently not a great nation to live in. So, what point are you making here? That Russia has been a terrible nation to live in? Is this news to anyone? I don't get it.
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  94. The arguments made seem to reflect reality, no? He pointed out the Nordic model which has proved very successful and also worker cooperative businesses as collective ownership by the working class in practice, which has also been a thing for many years. All points brought up can be verified so i'm not sure how you missed this. Also, human nature is a bit of a silly remark. If you are claiming that humans are greedy then you would have to also acknowledge that they are also generous. It almost sounds like you want a system that encourages and rewards bad behavior, which ends up becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. If you raise children where you encourage and reward bad behavior then the chances of them becoming menace to society increases dramatically, no?
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  95. I don't know what was so bad about what he said. His points line up with verifiable sources that we can look at. I don't see how the Nordic model is communist. The countries that have a system that sets everyone up for success are still considered capitalist.
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  96. opinion.
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  97.  @charles-edouardbertrandfab6903  Thanks for proving my point lol. I love it
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  98. I always love when people think they understand economics and then prove that they have a bare minimum level of understanding. I'm talking about you. Which socialist have ever said Bitcoin should be invested in? I can point to plenty of capitalist like Elon Musk who did. Capitalist do love their ponzi schemes after all. You have much to learn grasshopper.
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  99. Unions are and always have been a way for workers in a business to negotiate better contracts. Most of the time, the workers in the business already know fully how much they should be making for the jobs they do. For example, a technician that installs a control box for a pump knows the cost of the equipment needed since they are the ones actually acquiring it at the wholesaler warehouse, and they also know what the company is charging for labor. So the technician in a union will use their collective leverage to negotiate for a better cut of that labor charge, since they are doing the labor. Instead of the company taking 80% of the labor cost, the technician will bargain that the company only takes 50% of the labor from the tech. As for your claim about socialism, i'm not exactly sure what you are talking about. I'm assuming that you are talking about governments since it's what the average person assumes of socialism but i'm not crystal clear from your wording.
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  100. Well it's nice that the working class has AOC and Bernie Sanders as officials that truly support them and have the receipts to back it up. I disagree with your perspective of Biden though and no socialist likes Biden. For example, recently Biden did the opposite of supporting the railroad workers when they were striking for better working conditions. There are many in the working class that need to hear the words of "unite" and "organize" so they can work up the courage to stand up for themselves as a unit. Most of these rich elites don't seem to realize the demand and value of workers until they actually start to protest and strike. Supply and Demand is indeed a big part of the economy and working bodies are a very important piece. Business owners have always been complacent with the supply of working bodies being so high. That's why they feel like they can lowball the working class like they always have.
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  101.  @hectorftraducciones2785  I repeat again, he's favorable towards systems like the Nordic model that have safety nets to help people out economically. Yes these nations have a capitalist economy but they are still superior to the American system. Socialist, even 'democratic socialist', are always pointing out flaws and saying "We can do better than that." I don't see how this is so offensive lol
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  102.  @beni4366  I'll wait for you to act like an adult and engage with the socialist perspective. Whenever you are ready we can continue the discussion if that's what you wish, otherwise this is the last reply since it really does seem like you're finished and have nothing useful to say.
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  103.  @beni4366  Yes, you are arrogant because you act like your assumptions of a mans ideas are superior to the mans actual ideas. You decide it's better to play telephone with someone's ideas instead of actually engaging with them. All because you arrogantly assumed that capitalism is perfect and doesn't have major flaws that constantly need addressing. Some nations have found a way to address those flaws and have set up social safety nets that catch people who fall through the cracks of the system and help them get back on track. That's why socialism isn't even a discussion in these nations either, even though they are capitalist. And yet in places like America the conversation of socialism is very popular because people like you think the American system is so great and has no problems. Americans always act like they are the best when they clearly are not. This is arrogance 100% It is also arrogant to keep pointing to the USSR formula instead of actually hearing what others have to say, just because you think you're sooo right about your own narrative. Very arrogant indeed. You didn't engage with a single comment I wrote in this thread and continued to say the same thing over when I already addressed it to begin with. Arrogant.
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  104.  @beni4366  Yeah it's over because you don't know anything. All you keep doing is whining about your nation being fooled by silly Russians. Attaching Marx's name to what the Russians did and spread around the world is such an ignorant and insulting thing to do. You didn't bother to know anything that Marx actually talked about and instead choose to consume narratives. That's the level you are at and so yeah the discussion is done.
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  105.  @beni4366  Yeah exactly as I expected. It was a nation that adopted the silly Russian ideas and it was forced onto you. All as I expected. Well this convo is over, good talk bud.
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  106.  @beni4366  Tell me where this place is. I can bet millions of dollars it's some place that adopted the USSR model lol You just don't know anything about this topic and probably never will. Some people are just too arrogant to realize their ignorance
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  107.  @beni4366  LMAO! Yes those people might not have called themselves socialist but they are socialist. The reason why you didn't know this is because you don't even know what Socialism actually is. You were too lazy to do any reading from socialist like Karl Marx, Albert Einstein or George Orwell. Because if you actually did any reading, you would have already known that Socialism is about working class struggles and the predatory and authoritarian nature of capitalism. Do every one of those railroad workers think of themselves as a socialist when they went on strike for better working conditions, asking for some sick days? I guarantee the answer is no, but they are still rising up as the working class and demanding better conditions. I bet you didn't know that the communist manifesto literally says "Workers of the world rise up! You only have your chains to lose." lol
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  108.  @beni4366  lol well you've already been saved and if you feel like nothing else needs improving then you are doing really well. That's great news to hear to be honest. You now enjoy an eight hour work day option, better pay and probably vacation time if that's an option for you. All of this thanks to those fights in the past ^_^
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  109.  @beni4366  The benefits that you take for granted that i was eluding to has to do with the better working conditions. If you take a look at history, you would find that people were working in terrible conditions. Workers rose up and fought for better conditions, which allowed you to enjoy a better life where you actually have time to yourself and don't struggle so much financially. The socialist conversation is about the working class and the predatory nature of capitalism. If you have any questions about that, feel free to ask. And yes those nations that have a superior model to America are indeed capitalist. That doesn't change the fact that they have a superior model, which is our point.
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  110. Socialism is a 100% success rate. Worker cooperative businesses have existed for many years, the worker revolutions of the past have afforded you and your family better working conditions as well. All of the benefits you take for granted are successes of the working class struggle.
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  111.  @derek_jesio  LOL! Everytime I try to give you a number or something it gets deleted. I give up. You have no arguments anyways, i just really wanted to hear how stupid you actually sound while saying the crap you say. Oh well...
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  112. Yeah, I actually want to take you on the offer of the phone call or discord. I want to actually hear the stupid in your voice now. Tell me where you want to meet for that.
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  113. If you're the man in the pic you need to be very careful who you slap. I also recommend not slapping someone just because they have a different perspective from yours.
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  114. I'm not sure what is naive. The points he brought up seem fine enough to me. It might be hard to understand for Americans since they mostly live in the bubble of their own nation, so they don't realize that the stuff this guest talks about is already in practice for most of the world now. That might be why the issues of socialism being on the rise is such a hot topic for America compared to the rest of the world too, because America has been left behind and only a few realize it.
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  115. Opinion. Nothing substantive said, congrats.
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  116.  @mikeslemonade  If someone is about to stab a person to death and you stand and watch then by proxy you are ok with it happening. Don't know why you throw such a hissy fit about $125 billion to a nation in need of help when our government gives $100 billion in subsidies to large companies and many more billions in handouts every year when they pass some bill with loopholes in, made on purpose. Americans pay soo much in taxes and we get basically nothing in return for it, while other nations get a better public transportation system, healthcare, higher education, financial help when needed, etc. You have your priorities messed up. You whine about the wrong stuff.
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  117. Wow dude.... Just wow. Once upon a time we were worried about Russian expansion and Stalin. Now people have forgotten how horrible Russia is and support their invasions. Stalin is blushing.
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  118.  @allstarreject  Make a case against socialism then? Let me guess, you're going to point at Cuba and Venezuela? LMAO~ Yeah you're finished. I only wish this was in person so i can actually laugh right in your face with how ridiculous you are lol
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  119.  @allstarreject  I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Just thought it'd be fair to straighten out the facts for you. You can stay mad though lol why are you mad? because you clearly don't want to acknowledge that I already made a case for socialism in more ways then one. Even mentioned collective ownership being a thing in practice. Nice work making a fool of yourself lol
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  120. I didn't watch the conversation but instead wanted to see funny comments like this. There is no case against socialism because socialism has always been a critique on the many failings of capitalism. You can read Karl Marx, Albert Einstein or any other socialist that wrote on socialism and you will find that they practically only list problems and explain why. The proposition of socialist will of course be the opposite of private ownership and that's why there is conflict on this topic. Socialism doesn't have a "system"; The closest thing you can claim as an example of collective ownership in practice would be the worker cooperative businesses. This doesn't mean that every business NEEDS to be a worker cooperative though. What people want is checks and balances on the greed and exploitation that capitalism produces.
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  121.  @benjaminjacks1211  Yup, that's very correct. It can be a bit of a mind blowing experience for someone who's only believed in propaganda, rather than doing their due diligence in finding out the truth of things. I don't recommend living your life that way but i suppose it comes down to you at the end of the day.
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  122.  @domerame5913  Show me where I said Denmark is socialist. Maybe it's you who doesn't understand history because you can't seem to even understand a few sentences written lol
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  123.  @hugow.5973  NORDIC model --------> "That sounds like Germany and I don't want to move to Germany!" LMAO
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  124. I'm sorry to break the bad news to you but Milton Friedman already beat you to that idea presenting to us the Hong Kong experiment and praised it as a capitalist utopia. Right now in Hong Kong people have to live in cages and pay rent for it. Corporations acts as governmental power and so it's geared towards profit. There's a reason why the Nordic model made sure the government actually plays a larger role in making sure the greed of capitalism is checked and therefore the current best economic system in the world. Socialist want to do away with both powers corporate and government, and have businesses collectively owned by the working class. The key thing is making sure that we continue to improve on our society and keep evolving into a better form. Any socialist will say this. So we don't actually care if you like the socialist perspective or not, just come up with a solution to your glorious capitalist economy so that it works for everyone and we are cool.
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  125. Yikes man. Like, you honestly have it much better than America but yeah you guys in Canada can't even get it right and that's why you're ranked only 30th in the world for healthcare. We don't care to use you guys as an example of success for that reason lol
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  126. "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, has been against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell "The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." - Albert Einstein "Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for ALL of God's children." -Martin Luther King Jr.
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  127.  @dontstealmydiamondsv3156  It's how the Youtube system works. Most people who have engaged in very bad behavior have a sticker on them which will shadow ban most of their comments. It's best to stay away from channels that churn out crazy conspiracies because if you comment in them you'll most likely get automatically flagged and would have to deal with that same issue.
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  128. George Orwell was a Socialist my dude. Sorry to break that bad news to you.
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  129.  @sanjitdaniel4588  Literally you have zero reading comprehension, don't you? lol My response was right on mark with your statement. I agreed with your point that the government is no ally to the workers and gave actual evidence of why that statement is true. There's many more I can list too and btw there were more than planes dropping bombs on the workers. Read up on the Battle of Blair Mountain for a full story. This was recent in American history no less. And i even gave an example of the present too which basically pre-emptively swatted down your "ancient history" remark too. Are you an actual clown? Take those clown shoes off before you respond to me again! LOL~ Dude your comments don't even show up because even youtube thinks your too much of a clown. Pull your head out of your poop hole bud lol
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  130.  @sanjitdaniel4588  wtf are you talking about dude? LMAO The conquest of the Ottoman Empire and other nonsense is what you have as a response? Yeah you're done lol
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  131. You're right, about one thing. In the real world the government doesn't swoop in to save the day for the working class. In the real world workers have always had to fight with their lives on the line to get any better conditions. Just a couple of examples of many is the battle of Blair Mountain where the coal workers went on strike and the business owner bought private planes to drop home made bombs on them, which was when the first bombs were ever dropped on American soil. The government got called in to finish the job, any survivors were thrown into prison. The second example is when the railroad workers went on strike begging for sick days, and the government stepped in to make them stop asking for better conditions. This happened recently. Luckily some fights in the past actually brought some success and we all enjoy the fruits of those fights. Do you enjoy your work-life balance? Do you have decent pay? Are you not over worked? Do you have some vacation time? Can you call in sick? Pretty neat all of these benefits you now have. "Workers of the world, Unite!" -Karl Marx from the communist manifesto. The reason Marx said that is because things will never get better unless the working class unite and fight for better conditions.
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  132. That's the comment that confused you? I mean, even without socialism, human society has been evolving and changing into something entirely different than before for thousands of years. It's called seeing problems and fixing those problems. If a dictatorship isn't sufficient for people then you try something more democratic. If capitalism isn't sufficient for people then you try something more democratic.
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  133. You wouldn't know authoritarianism if it was right in your face. That's why you haven't figured out the nature of capitalism.
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  134.  @sebadbt7410  Yeah that's my bad. The period in the comment confused my mind into thinking you made a new sentence. I somehow read the next sentence as if you are saying that the "socialist" nations are in the top ten for corruption.
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  135.  @ameremortal  Exactly. Working hard doesn't exactly translate to wealth. But socialist say that business owners shouldn't cut too much into the workers paycheck. If the business charges a customer $100 for labor, then the one doing the labor should at least get $80 of that. That's the main criticism of capitalism that socialist talk about. The ones who ruin capitalism are ironically the capitalist themselves.
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  136. What do you mean by working hard? The idea of working hard has sort of lost meaning when it can be interpreted in many ways. For example, Jeff Bezo's can say he worked hard to get to where he is, but how much harder did he work compared to you and why are you not the richest person in the world? What does it mean to work hard? Should you work hard for a company so that they can charge a customer a labor charge and only pay you 15% of that labor money after you actually did the labor? The owner of the company then claims they worked hard to achieve what they have, but did they really? Are you working hard just to work hard because it makes you feel good or is there a purpose to that hard work? What if there was an option where you can get passive income? Would you deny that and decide to work hard for your money rather than allow yourself to get money easily without needing to work hard for it? When socialist's say that people who work hard should be making money according to that hard work, why is your response to them "Working hard is something none of them understand."? Do you favor the ones who work hard, or do you favor the ones that say they worked hard? Right now i'm assuming the latter based on your statement.
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  137. Isn't it funny that you harp on a few words as if that has anything to do with what the conversation is about?
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  138.  @Anticommunism99  Yeah you know everything about the silly Russians and their silly ideas of authoritarianism. Wipe that red scar off your face the next time you speak to me.
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  139. I'm confused about how but ok lol
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  140.  @WhiteWolf126  Your answer is yes so I have zero idea why you are arguing with me. The argument you're primarily making is that you don't feel like people who work for a business like McDonald's deserve to reap the success of the business as the store that they work in brings in traffic, which translates to profits. If you had just said that to begin with the back and forth thread wouldn't have been so long. Instead you opened up with the most stupid remark I've ever heard someone make. This discussion with you is finished now as far as I'm concerned. I'll see if the main poster will have a more interesting approach to the question.
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  141.  @WhiteWolf126  Honestly, you have made the worst arguments I've seen against my example. At your level of intelligence I have to actually dumb this down a lot for you. So I'll ask some simple questions to make this discussion very quick so we can get a firm conclusion. 1. Is a person who produced more burgers doing more work? 2. Should the person who produces more burgers make more or should they get paid the same as the one who didn't produce as much? 3. We are now in an age where certain jobs like a cashier can become automated. Back before we had this technology, why did resturants hire people to work that job? If they are working in the store and helped get the orders of the customers and the store gets let's say an extra $4,000 for the month from the traffic, do you think the cashier who contributed get a piece of that if it was divided up to each of the workers that serviced the customers?
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  142.  @WhiteWolf126  Yeah the discrepancies with your argument are still present but since your not smart ill try to spell it out for you. 1. The example is based on traffic. Your claim that employees are not a factor doesn't reflect reality. You'd need to point to a store that doesn't have workers for that statement to make sense. It doesn't matter how simple you feel the job is. There are lot's of jobs that are actually simple but the workers make a bit better income from. Examples of this are utility jobs like internet service, trash pick-up, construction, etc. The job being simple isn't a factor, it's the profit generated from the work being done. 2. "So the success is determined by other factors and not by simple workers" ----- Again, you need proof that these businesses can remain profitable without people working the jobs. So far, automation hasn't been fully implemented for every job in a McDonald's store. 3. "At McDonald's you could replace anyone at anytime" ----- This is true of any job where the supply of working bodies desperate for a job is high. In certain industries where coders and program development would be needed, there are a lotvof people who have those skills now and so we see companies treating them the same way a McDonald's employee gets treated. Your example here of businesses treating workers a disposable is favorable towards my argument of capitalism being flawed. Thanks. 4. "Are you distributing profits evenly with your workers?" ----- If you had the ability to read and understand my example you wouldn't ask a ridiculous question. My example pertains to people getting paid the same under capitalism. My argument is that people should be paid by the success they bring to the company. Even better is that if it's easy to track the work effectiveness, then the profits an individual brings should mostly go to that individual for doing that work. I work my company by myself. I like to earn my keep so I have zero interest in hiring workers to do work for me so that I can take from their hard work and get free money. That's the easy way but not how I do things. If I were to hire someone then I'd pay them accordingly to each job they do and not take from their labor like a thief, like most businesses do.
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  143.  @WhiteWolf126  Thank you for finally explaining yourself but I'm finding a lot of discrepancies with your argument. 1. My example is based on traffic. 2. You still haven't proven why my example isn't grounded in reality. Read my example and try again. I'll give you another shot at it since you might have misread or didn't understand it the first time. If you come to the same conclusion then you actually need to explain why it's not grounded in reality.
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  144.  @WhiteWolf126  You're already starting to spam this thread with a whole lot of nothing. You've replied to me multiple times and have not explained why it's not grounded in reality. I need an explanation from you soon before I decide to ignore you and wait for the main man since i'm more interested in hearing what their thoughts are. Yes, i've worked multiple jobs in different industries. I now own a company myself. This has no relevance on the question I've asked but I could easily ask you the same question after such a remark like "this example isn't based in reality".
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  145.  @WhiteWolf126  I used a very simple example and you failed immediately. You didn't realize that it was a simple example. You can look in any industry and find the same exact issue. Also, be very careful to make that argument in the future or you'll get laughed at. You almost sound like you're saying that a guy who starts a burger shop should get taxed very hard if he dares make more money than a monkey like you thinks they deserve as a small burger shop owner.
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  146.  @bigheadrhino  Your initial statements have been based on state powers which are inherently private ownership while at the same time acknowledging that the socialist position is collective ownership by the working class. This is very contradictory, no? I'm seeing if you can acknowledge that contradiction and figure out what definition of Socialism fits your personal preference and world view. Then we can move forward from there.
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  147.  @bigheadrhino  So you are going to deflect and distract from your contradictory statement? Before I move into the other stuff you're now saying, I do need to you to acknowledge my whole response to your earlier statements lol
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  148.  @bigheadrhino  My dude you still didn't get my point. You are soooooo close! You already understand that state/government ownership is still private, so why in the world do you think socialist want private ownership in a different manner? If you talk to any socialist they will always say that the working class should be the ones that have ownership of their own labor. The guest in this video literally mentions worker cooperatives which are democratically owned businesses. So I thought your comment was really funny because somehow you missed the plot lol
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  149. Socialism isn't central planning my dude lol Seriously, you get so close to figuring out how your viewpoint contradicts itself but you somehow miss it: "Central planning also means State ownership which means that whoever controls the state essentially owns the state owned property." Listen to yourself closely and realize it.
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  150.  @inebriatedgamer5058  Canada is not a socialist country. "If the ceo or upper management gets paid the same as a cashier, then they have no incentive to be in management and will instead just be a cashier." This is a ridiculous statement because nobody is saying that every job should be paid the same. Straw manning like this would get you laughed out of the room so try to engage honestly. To make this crystal clear, the success of the business should be reflected in the paycheck of everyone who works at the business. If one McDonnald's store gets more traffic then another, then the workers in the store doing more work should see that when they get their paycheck. Currently everyone gets paid the same no matter how hard they work because the sole and primary benefactor is the owner and shareholders. Are you sure you want to continue to argue with me about this and make a fool of yourself? This is silly.
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  151.  @inebriatedgamer5058  Well if you're talking about economic freedom then the socialist proposition is the most free you can get. Right now with how things are currently done, you don't keep what you earn. To give you some perspective i'll use an example: Let's say that each pool is being charged $40 for each weekly service. at the end of the month that is $160 for each pool and the standard weekly pool cleaning schedule that companies like to hire workers for is a 50 pool schedule. That's $8,000 a month for 50 pools. The worker gets paid hourly for $11/hr and it can take anywhere from 15 minutes to 1 hour to clean a pool. The fact that some pools can take only 15-30 minutes to clean is the main reason why the hourly rate is undercutting the worker for potential profits that they are missing out on and the business is taking for themselves. $11/hr for a 40 hour work week is $1,760/month $8,000 - $1,760 = $6,240 State sales tax depends on state, we can say that it's 6.25% and the monthly cost of running a pool company comes down to chemical and equipment cost which can vary from $1,000-$2,000 Winter time it's definitely less than $1,000 $6,240 - 6.25% (Sales tax) = $5,850~ $5,850 - $2,000 (Business expenses) = $3,850/month Payroll tax of 6.36% is shared between employer and employee and comes out of each paycheck the employee earns. However, we can clearly see here that the business owner just made $3,850 not doing any of the work compared to the worker who did and made only $1,760. It’s fine for a business owner to take a piece of the profits made for providing the work but to the extent of a 60-40, 70-30 or an even more disgusting 80-20 is why people have become unmotivated and burnt out by the current working environment. If workers are getting paid the same whether they work hard or not then obviously people will become inclined to work less and not bother pursuing positions that require more responsibilities. There is hardly any incentive to do so and there is good reason that a big part of that is the static wage of hourly or salary work. On top of that the working class gets taxed at a higher rate in proportion to the cost of living than the wealthy business owners/shareholders that take a chunk of the workers paycheck. At the end of everything people are left with only crumbs.
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  152. Hey inebriatedgamer, You might not know this but freedom doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want. Some freedoms do indeed need to be taken away to allow everyone to have the most amount of freedom possible. For example, It would be silly to allow a religious cult to have the freedom to force everyone into their cult. Another example, it would be strange to allow people to have the freedom to shove a gun in another persons face if the felt like they got looked at the wrong way. Probably a good idea that if we allow people to have the freedom to have a gun, we should restrict their freedom on what they can do with a gun. That's kinda why we have laws and not just complete anarchy. Hope that helped connect the dots.
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  153. Bummer. Ludwig didn't know that democratically owned businesses work and have worked for many years. Someone should clue that guy Ludwig in lol Also, someone should let Ludwig know that collective ownership of the means of production doesn't actually need to be necessary if business owners were not so greedy. If business was done fairly then capitalism would be just fine. The irony is that the ones that ruin capitalism are the capitalist themselves.
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  154. Your comment gave me a good laugh. I always find it amusing to see what ridiculous things people make up about what socialist want to do lol. Amatur fan-fics are always a fun read.
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  155.  @hardikchoudhary1197  Ok, I need to warn you really quick that i'm a business owner. You still want to continue this because I can use figures based around my own business and others within my industry to prove that you have zero idea what you are talking about. 1. "Business owners invest their own money and take on the risk of starting and running the business" --- No. Most business owners take loans out to start a business and use the profits from their business to pay it back. This isn't really "investing own money", nor is it actually risky to start a business. Define risk for me so I can better explain why your assumption of risk is wrong. 2. Wages are not negotiated for the majority of jobs and market value deals with assets, not with wages. 3. " Capitalism encourages innovation by rewarding businesses that create new and better products or services." ---- This was an embarrassing statement to make. Capitalism encourages and rewards? What are we even talking about anymore? lol 4. Patents are indeed there to protect rights but there are plenty of patents that block people from innovating. I'm baffled that people try to even argue this still. You're seriously going to sit here and say that large companies don't weaponize patents to discourage innovation by making it more difficult for new entrants to compete with incumbents that formed a patent pool? In conclusion, you lack any real understanding of what you are talking about.
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  156.  @anomaly_echelon7994  There are a lot of discrepancies with your narrative. 1. "Everyone works for a business that pays them for their work, and it's not about working the hardest in capitalism, it's about being effective." ---- if being "effective" means productive, that's been the socialist point these past 180 years. Karl Marx for example talked about the surplus value of a persons labor going straight to the business owner who owns their labor. To translate this for a kid like you to understand i'll use a simple example. There are two stores of a business and one store gets more traffic than another, which means that the workers in the busier store is being more productive and generating the business greater profit. Why then in capitalism, do workers in both stores get paid the exact same as if they are doing the same exact workload? Shouldn't the workers be fairly compensated for the profits they generate from their productivity? Why does that profit only go straight to the top? 2. Innovation cannot thrive in capitalism. It's a simple google search away for you to figure out how many people tried to innovate and the company took that innovation and didn't compensate the person who had that idea. The idea gets stolen and the business owner takes the credit for it and makes the profit form it. This is why stories of "I had an idea of how to do things better but i decided not to bring it up." are so commonplace in a capitalist economy. There's also a thing called patents that literally prevents people from creating anything if it's similar to what the patent details copyright. I will never understand why people like you always use innovation as an argument when you people are the least innovative people i've ever met.
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  157.  @anomaly_echelon7994  "you're delusional if you think people would work their ass off for anything but themselves or their family." --- That's just the nature of capitalism bud. Everyone works for a business that's owned by someone who is profiting off of their labor. On top of that, people who cannot afford to buy a home need to rent, which again shows capitalism profiting off of another's hard work. That's what passive income is. The passive income doesn't just magically appear in peoples accounts because they are such a good boy/girl. It's coming from other peoples labor.
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  158. Uhhhhh, The people that hate the idea of socialism are the ones who don't do work though. The only ones who keep fearmongering and making things up about socialism are always the people who don't actually earn their keep and instead live off of other peoples hard work. So your statement is idiotic. "Socialism works in theory only but never in practice." --- I'd love to hear what you think it is in theory. I'm sure to get a good laugh.
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  159. Explain yourself please. He's favorable towards businesses being democratically ran so that workers actually have the ability to negotiate their working contracts. Currently many businesses do not allow workers to negotiate at all. I look forward to your explanation.
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  160.  @mineshjogia9945  The direct question of "is Jacobin a co-op?"???? I mean i've never heard of it so I don't know and don't care. I'm more interested in the claims you've made because you haven't backed up a single one. You even immediately ran away from the first remark i schooled you on when you said "can you show me one example of a co-op that actually works?" You run away so much i have to wonder what you are afraid of.
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  161.  @mineshjogia9945  "Yeah i'm the fool, when you are talking utopian" --- Tell me what i've said that is Utopian. Everything that i have put on the table exists in the real world. The one who's living in a fantasy is the one who makes a remark like "well when a capitalist fails then another capitalizes on their failure, hurr durr." You don't even know what is going on. You don't belong in this conversation lol
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  162.  @mineshjogia9945  You're a fool if you believe what I'm "preaching" is for an economy of only worker cooperatives and no other option. But I will tell you this, that if you keep jumping into these conversations with an attitude like we live in some utopia where everything and everyone is doing great because the economy "self corrects"; You will constantly run into people that will give you that vibe. In fact, you will inspire people to adopt that position because you're clueless what the conversation is about and people will feel like the only way to fix these issues it to force businesses to restructure into worker cooperatives. It's funny for me because a person doesn't need to adopt such a radical position if the problems, which are easy fixes, would simply get addressed. But soo many of you corporate simps go out of your way to defend the indefensible and radicalize people because you choose to be ignorant and unreasonable lol
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  163.  @mineshjogia9945  I'm not even sure how to give you the answer you're looking for. I'm not sure what you mean by "flourishing". Worker cooperative businesses are easy to find using a directory and there are businesses ranging from Publix super market to a standard hole in the wall restaurant. I'm not sure why you are so concerned with these kinds of businesses either because although I mentioned them as an example of the socialist perspective of collective ownership, it's not like I'm saying every business should only be a worker cooperative. If you understood the position you are arguing right now you would feel very embarrassed. The socialist perspective comes from the failures with the capitalist system. The ones who ironically make capitalism fail are the capitalist themselves because they don't go easy with their greed. You arguing with a socialist is basically pretending that we live in some kind of Utopia where workers don't go on strike for better working conditions lol
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  164.  @namenloss730  LMAO! Yeah you deserve to get laughed out of the room. You don't know anything. I own a small company so I at least have a base line understanding of labor and value. Most companies actually charge way more for labor because who's going to question it? A $100 service fee just to show up! LOL~ And the worst part about all of it is that the worker doesn't get to receive any of that money that the company is ripping off of the consumer. You're such a joke and don't understand how the economy actually works. Make sure you stay out of these convos from here on out. Save yourself embarrassment.
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  165.  @namenloss730  My guy..... Why are you trying so hard to resist this stuff? It's not hard to understand. I really hope that after i respond to your points, it actually clicks for you. "How are co-ops harder?" --- The same way a direct democracy is harder. People have more responsibility and involvement. When you join a worker cooperative, you are buying into it and investing your own money in it as if it's your own business because you will also be an owner of that business. You will be more involved with what is going on in the business and make decisions along with your fellow business owners. Not every co-op is structured the same because everyone likes to streamline these processes differently but that's the gist of why it's more difficult. Being an owner of a business means you bear responsibilities of what you own. "You do realize that "capitalism" hasn't been around much longer than 180 years either right?" ----- Capitalism has been around for thousands of years. Capitalism is literally private ownership. It must be very mysterious for you why the transition from the feudalistic era to the now republic era was so smooth economically. It's not like ownership of property changes just because people did away with the monarchy. To make this crystal clear for you and i hope to god your brain is capable of understanding this simple example. With capitalism, you have two stores that belong to the same business. One store will clearly get more traffic than another but workers in both stores will always remain with the same pay. Workers in one store work harder, producing more but where is that surplus value going? Socialists say that is wrong and has been the main conversations for these past 180 years.
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  166.  @namenloss730  Well he did say in the beginning that socialist don't tend to agree with each other. Everyone has their own perspective on things, and view things from a different angle which can give insight to something that another missed. This is a good thing. But yes something new like a co-op would be difficult because it's a new concept. Socialism has only been discussed for about 180 years after all. Are autocracies more efficient? No. If this was the case then we would still live in a dictatorship/monarchy. The math actually favors socialism and communism economically and there is an economic simulation game that kind of accidentally shows this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avyBvKvegIY&t=173s
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  167. Indeed but it's also very hard to get a cooperative started when the general public doesn't even know what they are and how they work. Also, his point still stands strong and you didn't give an argument against it. The same can be said not to long ago when every nation was ran by a monarchy. The simple answer is that it's easier and more practical to organize a society through an authoritarian manner, rather than a democratic way where people will have more say on what they think should be done. Democracy is much more complex.
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  168. Tim Collins, Before suggesting that socialist don't know history, you might would want to brush up on it yourself. Socialism became a term that describes the critique on capitalism. Karl Marx wrote A Lot about it, so why would he write "Workers of the world unite! You only have your chains to lose!" in the communist manifesto? It's because capitalism has always been terrible. History shows thousands of battles along with full blown revolutions. You think the Russians did the soviet revolution for fun and giggles? In America did you forget about the many battles like the battle of Blair Mountain? Do you actually believe that capitalism started out with a 40 hour work week, weekends, sick days, a decent paycheck, vacation time?
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  169.  @candorsspot2775  OK? That's called inflation.
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  170.  @Mpacitto  Ok now i have no idea what you are even talking about. I'm not at all sure how anything you are saying has anything to do with what I wrote earlier. I didn't think it was so hard to understand. What about it is so confusing for you?
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  171.  @Mpacitto  I'm honestly confused to your perspective. I own a business myself and it's not the end of the world if my business were to become unprofitable and I need to close it down. I just then find a new job same as everyone else. You don't even lose money unless you started a business barrowing more than 30% of the cost to start it, which is really silly and risky. Play with fire, you might get burned. Also, with the closing of my business, perhaps the market becomes open later for a new business to arise. This is fine and healthy for the economy anyways. Democratically owned businesses are perfectly fine and acceptable. The reason why we don't see many of them is because the markets are super saturated with private companies as it is. To put perspective on this, try opening a burger shop right now, even as a private owner. There's already big brands that have all the high traffic spots so to even start a burger shop, you have to put it in a place that people wont easily see it. I've actually seen a burger shop called Joey's burgers close down a year later because it just didn't get the traffic it needed to keep the lights on. If the markets are already saturated with private business, and those business owner choose to run it in a greedy manner, then socialism will continue to be a thing. If you support capitalism but are unable to figure out how to fix the glaring issues with it, then you can't complain about certain individuals thinking government should step in.
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  172. It doesn't, but there might be some people like this guest who are more social democrats than they are socialist. The socialist perspective is this: There are two stores of a business and one of the stores is located in an area where they get high traffic. This means that the workers in that store are becoming more productive with the increased workload and therefore are generating the business more profit. Why then in capitalism, do workers of both stores get paid the exact same as if they are doing the same exact workload? Shouldn't someone being more productive and generates the business greater profits see that reflected in their paycheck? Why do those profits instead go straight to the top? What solution do you have to this essential problem with a privately owned businesses that is top down and the business owner has the final say on this?
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  173. Private schools already exist and they are much more expensive and are not any better than public schools. Public Schools are funded through our taxes. Without the funding through taxes then you will have yet another expense to have to deal with and it's a very expensive one at that. You're a dunce to not understand that.
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  174. It sounds like you only want to hear a narrative that you've grown up hearing and become used to. Noam Chomsky wrote a book about this called manufacturing consent. A good read and puts some perspective on manipulative powers in society. Some good quotes from some well known great minds: "The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it." -George Orwell
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  175. He's not even a socialist lol And socialism doesn't mean you can't have sponsors, WTF??? LMAO
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  176.  @555salt  Yes you are done because value comes from production. Workers produce the value, which is why those businesses are profitable. Most businesses are definitely not 100% automated like the examples you kept trying to use to evade the questions i asked. You're a clown plain and simple. "Socialist don't understand prices or the mechanics of money to begin with." What a silly remark from someone who refuses to face reality.
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  177.  @555salt  "You've skipped past my example of two stores." Because it's irrelevant. You brought up a business that is completely automated. This has nothing to do with someone doing work and not being paid accordingly to the work being done. It's Honestly you who doesn't understand the economy. I've given you multiple chances to address the question I posed to you and you failed multiple times. You kept avoiding the obvious problem with capitalism and have done nothing but mental gymnastics. I would say this concludes this discussion and the final verdict of your original claim is that socialist do indeed know what they are talking about.
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  178.  @555salt  That's a cool anecdote but that doesn't at all reflect how the majority of situations play out and I know you should know very well that fact. All you are doing is deflecting from the problems and pretending they don't exist. Very silly behavior.
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  179.  @555salt  Contracts are not actually available in capitalism. Only a Union can viably form contracts for the workers. Workers as individuals have no ability to actually negotiate a reasonable contract. The reason for this is because of supply and demand. The supply of working bodies needing work is too high which puts the negotiating power wholly on the side of the business. This is why there are many unions being formed recently. The facts are on my side, don't you think? The arguments you are making makes it sound like you are perfectly fine with doing work for as little pay as possible. Very weird.
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  180.  @555salt  What are you talking about? I'll repeat it again and try to focus on what the labor theory of value is. This is about "the output of the work not how much toil is put into the work.": when the business generates profit (surplus value) or in other words what the business makes more in money than what is expected, then the workers should see that surplus value reflected in their paychecks doing the surplus workload to achieve that. For example, there are two McDonald's stores and one gets more traffic than another. One store is clearly doing more work because they are getting more traffic and therefore are producing more than the other. Why then, are employees of both stores getting paid the exact same as if they are doing the same exact workload?
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  181.  @555salt  But I just told you the labor theory of value earlier. Read it and explain why a worker doesn't deserve to make the extra they put in. I'd love to hear what you have to say.
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  182.  @555salt  OK, so far I've not been convinced that socialist don't understand prices and the mechanics of the economy, the claim you made. So far you have proven to me that socialist do know what they are talking about.
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  183.  @555salt  But there isn't a shortage of oil. Have you not looked into the supply of oil and price per barrel versus what companies then charge customers? This is public information that anyone can access and look at. Also, have you ever heard of artificial scarcity? I was thinking you would at least be aware of these things.
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  184.  @555salt  1. "value is subjective and determined by a humans goals and how something relates to those goals. " --- Very good. 2. "different factors such as difficulty to produce, and goals of the consumer will move the current price around. prices are never steady and require movement in response to these factors." ---- Yes and No. No because the producers that set the prices are not concerned with consumer goals. For example, there are plenty of companies now that have been taking advantage of using excuses to raise prices to ridiculous levels and therefore have made record profits. The raising of prices is against consumer goals but if the consumer has no choice and needs the goods/services then they will have no choice to pay whatever the provider decides to charge them. 3. "Socialists run on the assumption that value = prices = labor and that prices are somehow able to be objectively set by a central body completely ignoring the fact that prices currently work as an extremely efficient and democratic rationing method." ---- Confusing statement. Still don't understand what is being said but based on what i think i understand, that's a hard NO. Socialist say that when the business generates profit (surplus value) or in other words what the business makes more in money than what is expected, then the workers should see that surplus value reflected in their paychecks doing the surplus workload to achieve that. For example, in capitalism right now there are two McDonald's stores and one gets more traffic than another. One store is clearly doing more work because they are getting more traffic and therefore are producing more than the other. Why then, are employees of both stores getting paid the exact same as if they are doing the same exact workload?
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  185. Nobody calls themselves an economist. But I do want to test you on your understanding of prices and the mechanics of money. Explain what you think prices are and how it all works.
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  186. You don't have any arguments and actually make a case against yourself with the taxing remark. Very silly.
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  187. You came from a "commy" country? Good to hear! Now you can wipe that red scar the Russians put on your face and actually engage with what he's actually saying. If you need some time to heal that red scar then take your time, but stay out of these convo's so you don't look like a total clown.
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  188. I get what you are saying following the logic of how you believe things work. But how do you explain the profits that these businesses accrue if workers truly cannot have a better salary? And not to mention that the cut to working 40 hours to 35 seems perfectly doable in many companies that waste more of their resources due to production being too high for the demand of the products being produced. I would say that if a business has the means for workers to have better conditions, then why not? Or are you of the mind that the CEO's and shareholders should continue to make millions instead? Someone loses out here so who's side are you on exactly? Workers or the CEO's and shareholders?
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  189.  @kamilion100  Sorry but that's a utopian way of looking at the world. We don't live in dictatorships anymore because we can't count on an individual making an informed choice that is fair and beneficial to everyone involved.
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  190.  @kamilion100  Yeah the government shouldn't need to tell business owners what to do with the profits. I mean there are nations that don't even have a minimum wage because they have strong worker unions to begin with. The socialist question for you is this: There are two McDonald's stores and one store gets more traffic than another. This means that the employees of one store is producing more value for the business than the other store. Yet why in capitalism are employees of both stores getting paid the exact same as if they are doing the same exact workload?
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  191. You're basically saying that you would be willing to work for free since working for someone else's business means you have no right to whatever wealth you generate for that business. It is their business, their property and you should therefore respect the right they have to their property and what they want to do with it.
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  192. That's because Sweden didn't have any cases when they opened their economy back up. The problem is that if the rest of the world is struggling to actually get people to quarantine and get the spread under control, then you can't viably keep your economy shut down indefinitely. They did what they could so I don't understand why you expect anyone to criticize a nation that did its due diligence lol
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  193.  @peteygonemadarts4765  There are specific problems that come from capitalism and pointing them out is a socialist action. Socialism is primarily the critique on capitalism and socialist would be critics. Workers uniting and fighting for better conditions has been the theme for the 180 years socialism became a term to reflect the economic circumstances. And we all enjoy the fruits of those fights. The worst days of capitalism were back with the coal mines and factory conditions. But there's still a lot to improve on.
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  194.  @peteygonemadarts4765  I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it sounds like you're indeed a socialist. Your example of small businesses being targeted is a big part of the socialist critique on capitalism. By the way, when i brought up the point of collective ownership, I'm not saying that every business has to become one. Your company and your brothers wouldn't even qualify for what i'm talking about since it's a small business. The reason why you're a socialist is because you already see multiple problems with capitalism and you are pointing them out. This is what a socialist does. But i completely understand why you wouldn't want to call yourself one with the stigma behind it due to anti-socialist propaganda.
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  195.  @peteygonemadarts4765  You don't actually need a business license to sell to the public. If kids got arrested in Georgia for a lemonade stand then the city is in the wrong. I'm not even sure this anecdote is even real or any of the details to it so it's a moot point. I'm a business owner in the pool industry and I need a license to prove that I'm not just some shady guy going into peoples back yards. Hong Kong is not a great example, there are people who are forced to live in cages and pay rent on them. Also, large corporations in Hong Kong run the country, which is expected when the power vacuum left behind by less government, a new power fills that void. Small businesses are not allowed to succeed in Hong Kong. The other nations you listed are not all that free either. The problem with capitalism is that it doesn't allow for a free market. People think that competition is great but always forget that competition eliminates competition by nature. This can be fine as long as the ball stays in the court of the public. The socialist proposition is that the means of production should be collectively owned by the working class so that when businesses grow to a point where they have a lot of market power, there is already checks and balances in place through the democratic ownership of those businesses.
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  196. "weaponized regulations" --- Any examples? How do you propose to fix the abuse and greed within the capitalist system? That's mainly what a socialist will ask someone who defends capitalism. For example, capitalism is private ownership of the means of production, which means a small group of people will be the ones to dictate everything. How do you fix the problem of a dictators being ruthless in a dictatorship? Any ideas?
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  197. This video is three hours long so you got a timestamp?
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  198. Sapnfap, i'm sorry to break the bad news to you but everything you just said literally reflects what we already have. 1. "you need a state large enough to forcibly collectivize the means of production from people who do not wish to have their property seized" ----- We are collectively being forced to work the means of production who do not wish to have their property siezed and the large state forces us to do so. Otherwise we go hungry and die homeless. 2. "A state powerful enough to do such a violent task by force" ------ Every state is indeed already powerful enough to suppress the people. 3. "Authoritarianism is a feature, not a bug" ------ Indeed. Yes indeed! A true feature of private ownership ^_^
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  199.  @hime273  Sure 👍
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  200.  @hime273  "This is why nobody takes you seriously" - Guy who takes me and other socialist very seriously. If you didn't take us seriously, you'd never bother being involved in videos about Socialism, let alone talk to a socialist.
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  201.  @bloviatingbeluga8553  "You overthrow the dictator" --- Finally we can get to the meat and potatoes for you, THANK YOU FOR FINALLY ANSWERING!~ Now, overthrowing the dictator is not good enough. The fact that you didn't address what should come next proves why you arguing with me makes zero sense. You have no idea anything what you are talking about. You don't simply overthrow a king. What now? You put another on the throne? Humans have been doing that for thousands of years. After the soviet revolution, the Russians didn't really change anything with how their economy operates. Oppression still exists if you put all the power in the hands of a few. The correct answer is that you replace the dictatorship with something more democratic, that give the people more say in the matters of their lives. Don't we now have republics? We ELECT people now. That's the perspective of socialism. Did Karl Marx not say "Workers of the world, Unite! You only have your chains to lose!" in the communist manifesto? Haven't the benefits we now enjoyed come straight from the working class uniting? People formed unions, and demanded better. That's how you fix the problems with a dictatorship. That's how you fix the problems of capitalism. This is not even remotely complicating and if you actually acted like an adult and did a tiny bit of reading, you wouldn't have looked like a total clown this entire time.
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  202.  @bloviatingbeluga8553  1. Learn how to read. I didn't at all say that one of the stores are unprofitable. This is a narrative you are making up in your head so that you have a strawman to attack. 2. Your narrative of competing doesn't even make sense anyways ( "The point is to either take a spot away from competition, or to advertise, or plenty of other reasons." ) This narrative only works if someone is super wealthy. By your own logic, it is impossible to compete unless you are so rich that you can afford to plop down a store in an area just to advertise and see if you can pull customers away from other businesses. This doesn't even work in reality and you would know that if you even dared attempt it. To put it plainly for you, try starting a burger shop right now while all of the best spots have been taken by other multi-billion dollar businesses. I've seen a couple of burger shops in my location close within the first year due to that fact alone. You cannot compete in a market that is over saturated with already successful businesses that have already taken the spots where traffic can easily see and access the business. 3. "This said nothing at all other than "Well they agreed to a set wage lol" --- Why I said this should be easy as hell to understand. You understand how supply and demand works? When supply is high, the ones who buy have the advantage. When demand is high, the ones who set the price have the advantage. Demand for work is high and supply for working bodies is high. If you try to get hired at McDonnald's and ask for $20/hour because you looked into the profit and loss statement of the store and know that they can easily pay you that much due to the traffic the store gets, they will turn you away because there are plenty of other more desperate people who will agree to as little as the business wants to pay. This is also why companies have always taken their factories to other low income countries so they can exploit the fact that there are desperate people who are willing to work in sweat shop conditions. 4. "In all of the capitalist west you are free to leave any job at any time for any reason." ---- Now we go back to the same boring dialogue tree with you now where I bring up an analogy that makes you feel uncomfortable and write it off. I already went over that in an earlier post..... 5. Answer now, how to you fix a dictatorship that is authoritarian. Quit avoiding after claiming you wanted a serious discussion. We apparently need to hold your hand and REAAALLLY baby you through this.
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  203.  @bloviatingbeluga8553  I literally told you why it was silly. It doesn't at all make sense from a business perspective. You are literally talking to someone right now that owns a business. The moment my business is not making the money I need, then i'd drop it just like anyone else does when their business isn't making the profits they are looking for. Why in the world would I have two stores and have one subsidizing another? That doesn't even make sense. So try again. Fix that core problem of capitalism and its greedy business owners. Better yet, let's dumb this down even further for you so you can have an easier time grasping what is going on. Tell me how to fix a dictatorship that is authoritarian. I'll wait.
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  204.  @bloviatingbeluga8553  1. What in the heck?! So you're argument for #1 is that the one of the stores needs to pay for the other one? This doesn't even make sense from a business perspective. When a store is not as profitable it closes down 100% What a silly thing for you to say 2. This said nothing at all other than "Well they agreed to a set wage lol" Why did you even bother attempting if this is what you were coming with? wft?
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  205.  @LevisH21  Honestly, i don't even need to respond to you any further because you're obviously not right in the head. I've been on this platform since 2006 and not once have I had the issue where my comments get ghosted. You can't even answer simple questions so you're done.
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  206.  @LevisH21  I'll tell you what. Take a look at history and you can find thousands of battles and even a few full blown revolutions because of how bad capitalism has been. You think the Russians did the soviet revolution for fun and giggles? Even here in America did you not hear the many battles like the Battle of Blair Mountain? You are an absolute clown if you think capitalism started with a 40 hour work week, weekends, a decent paycheck (depending on what is "decent" compared to the cost of living), sick day, vacation etc. These had to be fought for and people died to achieve it. Karl Marx wrote "workers of the world, unite! You only have your chains to lose!" in the communist manifesto for a reason. Albert Einstein also wrote an article "Why Socialism?" explaining that the real purpose of socialism is to advance beyond the predatory phase of human development. If you want to defend capitalism so badly, then you have a lot to answer for and a socialist is going to grill you real good. Let's use an example of the socialist perspective and see how you answer: There are two stores of a business and one gets more traffic then another due to its location being in an extremely high traffic area. This means that the workers in one of the stores are being more productive and through their increased productivity, they are generating the business greater profits. So why then in capitalism do the employees of both stores get paid the exact same as if they are doing the same exact workload? Why do the profits go straight to the top? Shouldn't the workers who are being more productive see the success they are bringing to the business reflected in their paycheck?
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  207.  @LevisH21  "to even suggest that capitalism and slavery are the same is the most asinine comparison I have ever heard. " ---- Well it's just not unfortunately for you. Even conservatives have mentioned being wage slaves because that's just how it is. Your reaction is funny because your feelings are clearly being hurt. I'm not sure why you feel like you need to rush to the defense of an economic system where the vast majority of the wealth in concentrated with a few who don't actually earn it. "and give me a break with Scandinavian countries." --- These are not socialist countries and to understand how socialist view these nations here's a great video explaining that for your undeveloped brain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRq3pl17C8M&t=6s "there is no such thing as "free stuff" in any country. you pay taxes to get "free stuff"" --- WOW! Look at captain obvious over here! Do you have anything else to add?
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  208.  @LevisH21  You fail as a troll when the jokes on you, just so you know. You make sarcasm but your comments make it look like that's exactly who you are. To make it crystal clear how ridiculous you sound, i'll have to make an example that might help puzzle those pieces together. Let's say that slavery was still an excepted trade and part of the economy, but we gave slaves the ability to employ themselves with any slaver of their choosing. When the slaves point out problems of slavery, you then come along and say "Quit complaining and just find a new master.", we all will look at you like why does someone like you even bother opening your mouth.
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  209.  @LevisH21  Sorry that your feelings are so hurt that you need to go out of your way to belittle the working class. You are so superior to everyone else and so great, we get it 🙄
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  210. As the guest said, not every socialist agrees with him. If you were to ask someone like me, i'd tell you that you can read Karl Marx, Albert Einstein, or any other socialist who wrote on socialism and you'd find out very clearly that socialism is primarily a critique on the many failings of capitalism. Many socialist have their own idea on how to fix those glaring issues but mostly it stems back to collective ownership. Examples that clearly work can be seen in the thousands of worker cooperative businesses around the world so you can't say you don't have any examples. For as long as the problems of capitalism exist, then people will obviously give protest to those issues. This is expected and natural.
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  211. Hey Peerseemann, I'm not sure if you realize this but just so you know, even if you point out one example of something not working out, there are thousands of examples around the world of worker cooperatives doing just fine. Even in the U.S.A there are about 300 collectively owned businesses. Anybody can point to a privately owned business that failed but does that mean that a privately owned business doesn't work? It's a ridiculous proposition so I wanted to make sure you're at least aware of this.
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  212.  @derek_jesio  "Nothing is more dangerous than someone who is too arrogant to understand how ignorant they are." ---- Yes! This is exactly my thoughts too. Thanks for the chat for what it's worth.
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  213.  @derek_jesio  So it's impossible for you to say what problems you have with these nations unless it's secretly on the phone between you and I? I'm having a hard time understanding why this is difficult. Most nations, not only the Scandinavian ones, have free basic healthcare. Most nations choose to invest into education as well which allows them to have the most educated population. This is great because it increases the pool of experts for any given field that needs skilled and knowledgeable people. The crazy thing is that these nations have all of these great programs that accelerate the economic oppertunities of the people and the people don't even pay that much more in taxes. If you actually look at their tax brackets the average income earners only have to pay maybe 5-10% more in taxes which isn't unreasonable. Who gets taxed harder though? Of course the high earners. So if you're a high earner then yes, you have good arguments for why you don't like this and don't support it. You got me there. Selfish but understandable.
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  214.  @derek_jesio  You seem to have plenty of time to keep posting in this video with new threads. Please, i beg you to rip me apart. I'm always open to arguments that are convincing enough to change my mind. Tell me why these nations are so bad to you.
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  215. You've been posting a lot but always run away from my prodding of your illogical statements. Universal healthcare and education paid for through taxes is what the rest of the developed world already has and there is nothing authoritarian about the nations that have achieved this. The majority of the people that live in these nations fully support the way this works. The average American pays 5% less than the average person in these nations and yet what do we get in return for the taxes being taken from us? Quit running away, sit still and let's discuss this. I know you've been told to fear socialist but i promise i don't bite.
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  216. Saying that will convince nobody. You have to contend with people addressing real issues with how business is done and how can you argue against their valid points?
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  217. It's honestly SO EASY to assume that what was written in a book you didn't read has anything to do with nations and governments. It's much harder to actually read the book to learn what is actually said.
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  218. They already do. Worker cooperatives have been a thing for ages and there are already thousands of them. The problem with your "Start a business" remark is that it's really silly. Anyone could ask you to start your own burger shop but i promise you that you will fail. Why? because the market is already saturated with burger shops and how many of them are the same brand you see all over the world? Seems like certain companies have a great monopoly of the market and they already have bought all the hotspot land to build their businesses on. You are at a huge disadvantage starting a business right now. The market isn't so simple as "why don't you start your own business?", a silly statement that shows economic ignorance.
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  219. You seem to have a lot of hatred for the two people in government that actually have a track record of supporting the American people. I guess they both can step out and let our government be 100% corrupt instead of only 98% lol Receipts matter. Even if someone says mean things and makes people hate them, if they continuously vote in favor of helping everyone then they are genuinely a straight shooter. Seems like you enjoy politicians that only whisper sweet nothings in your ear.
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  220.  @kejkus  I didn't forget that businesses exist to make money at all, not sure how you gathered that assumption from what i pointed out. You asked a question and i gave you an answer. Now you ask another question and i will give yet another answer. "Why do you think it’s fair for them to share “excess” profit then?" --- Because these businesses don't generate that profit on their own. Show me a business where they don't hire any working bodies to produce the goods and services that generate those profits. Does Jeff Bezos deliver the packages or do the workers? Does Elon Musk design and produce the tesla cars or do the workers? Do any of these business owners work the business by themselves or are these businesses successful because the workers make it so?
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  221. The excess profits is basically what the business makes more than what is expected from production, and shouldn't the workers in the business determine that? That's why he brought up the point of worker cooperative businesses lol
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  222. Wow dude. He was making a little prediction but you took it waaaaaay out of context. He's not even saying that he likes or wants Biden.
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  223. People who work labor do actually turn into socialist whether they realize it or not. I'm sure that the railroad workers that went on strike for better working conditions aren't all socialist, and yet they realize the problem of corporate greed and how it impacts them as the working class. I'm sure there have been plenty moments for you or there will soon be moments when you turn into a socialist without even realizing it lol
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  224.  @fatmanjoh  That's like asking us to show you a nation with flying cars when people are talking about innovating a new method of transportation. It's really silly. Your comments are very conflicting too because you talk about socialism as if it has existed like Venezuela but then now your new comment suggest that there has never been a pure socialist country. You can't seem to make up your mind on what argument you want to go with. Typical of a sheep that knows nothing and can only parrot propaganda. One sheep goes "Baaah" and the rest also feel they need to say "Baaah" too.
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  225.  @fatmanjoh  "But I do it of my own choice" ---- You said it as if everyone should do that though. You claimed that it was why you were a successful capitalist, which is just wrong anyways because a capitalist is the one who controls the economy. "Danes aren't socialist." --- Nice observation captain obvious lol. You really need to learn how to pay attention.
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  226. He's describing the Nordic model, and yes it's very successful. Working 60-90 hours a week sound silly. You sound like you should be living in China because they have the perfect work schedule for you. It's called the 9-9-6, you go to work at 9am and get off at 9pm and work six days a week. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqd7q0RTe0g
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  227. You wrote a lot but i don't really understand what you are talking about lol Nothing you wrote is on topic with the conversation in this interview.
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  228. Socialist 'ideas' have nothing to do with government though. I can't blame your confusion though because it can be very confusing when people who will call themselves socialist, talk about programs that the government could enact that would help people out economically. They point that out though because the government already deals with the economy because that's how the tax system works, and there are already nations that do a great job providing good services for their people. The Nordic model has been a tremendous success. It's a shame that America didn't beat anyone to the punch and has fallen way behind.
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  229. If you paid attention to his opening remarks, he said that he would love to have Trump on next. Calm down and don't get so triggered when someone comes on with different ideas lol
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  230.  @MrJosefsundstrom  Oh I also think I should point out to you that you are actually part of that problem. You called your countries social policies socialist policies. You should think on that.
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  231.  @MrJosefsundstrom  Yeah blame that on the right-wing for constantly telling the public that Socialism is government doing stuff. I have already seen thousands of Swedes in comment sections from other videos calling their own country Socialist so you should probably have a talk with the right-wing in your own country too.
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  232. Yes and since you are a Swede and don't understand what you have as a Swede, you might better educate yourself on what American's don't have in comparison to a typical Swede. There are other nations other than Sweden that do better than America too after all. Bernie Sanders had a good talk with the Ambassador of Finland that puts a lot into perspective.
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  233. Any names?
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  234. Be very careful Chris. Those who believe themselves to be the ones who understand history and economics, tend to always prove that they know nothing at all.
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  235. That's easier said then done dude. Markets are already plenty saturated so starting a business isn't going to be very profitable. It's also very expensive, which is why it's geared towards people who are already wealthy. Thousands of startups end every year my dude. If there are already successful businesses that are providing to the market, it makes much more sense to organize those businesses in a manner that works for everyone, rather than just the guy who owns it and the shareholders.
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  236.  @cyberft  That's fine if you feel that way. Many people who work in very greedy industries need Unions. If you don't work in a job where you feel that way (if you even work at all) then that is excellent news and we are very happy to hear that you are doing great.
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  237. You should listen to him again and listen to him closely. He's also giving an example of trade offs lol Not the best example since socialism can handle any kind of persons motivation to work as many hours as they please, but meh.
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  238.  @bradojacko8247  Nah, my point has already been made bud. Have a great day!~
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  239. Maybe the far right are too crazy to talk to and the far left are the more reasonable ones. Maybe someone who calls this guest a "lunatic psychopath" is already too far gone for any genuine discussion lol
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  240. From my understanding, labor unions are a way for the workers to actually have the ability to negotiate their contract with the business. Unions that become corrupted due to leaders ending up taking the side of the business can become a problem, yes but it's much better than being an individual that is isolated and easy to take advantage of. Union workers still have the ability to organize and go on strikes because they actually have unity as a whole. If you believe that people in unions don't know anything then I think you should make a video of you going to these workers in Unions and giving them a piece of your mind. Tell those railroad workers that went on strike off and let them know what's what. Because you got it figured out and they don't know anything lol
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  241.  @TheGerogero  Those two you listed are not socialist. And sure, the definition of socialism is collective ownership of the means of production but that's not really what socialism actually is. Read any socialist like Karl Marx and you would find that socialism is the critique on capitalism and socialist are the critics of capitalism. In the communist manifesto for example Karl Marx said "workers of the world, Unite!" because if they don't then things will never get better. And the working class has united and fought for better conditions ever since. Ever heard of the many battles such as the Battle of Blair Mountain where coal miners went on strike for better conditions and the business owner bought private planes to drop bombs on them and then even called in the government to finish the job? All of the benefits you enjoy now is thanks to the working class uniting and demanding better. Do you have a good work-life balance? Are you not being overworked as much? Do you have a decent paycheck? Do you have vacation time? Do you have sick day? Even now some of those things you might enjoy, are still being denied to others. Just recently the railroad workers went on strike for something as small as sick days and the company called in the government to force them to stop striking. I can go on and on and give many more examples of capitalism being a very flawed system. We can discuss this more so you understand a bit better what the socialist perspective actually is.
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  242.  @TheGerogero  Because we've had this tired convo for ages. Its not even hard at all to just be an honest person and go straight to the sources. But you'd rather play telephone instead and that's why you get the snarky comments. If you want a genuine convo then you're going to have to make sure to wipe that red scar off of your face.
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  243. You are wrong about us not achieving capitalism. You also need to learn what bots are so you don't get scammed.
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  244. So pointing out that worker cooperatives are a socialist example of collective ownership in practice and that the nordic model works (which it absolutely does) is unaware of the real world? Sounds more to me like you are completely unaware of anything in the real world.
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  245. Your perspective has many discrepancies. You are suggesting that Greed is the only human nature characteristic as if generosity doesn't exist. Are you a parent? If your child behaves badly, do you make sure to cater to that bad behavior so they can freely continue to behave that way? I would think that a good parent would set up a structure where their children are rewarded and encouraged for their good behavior instead of rewarding and encouraging the bad behavior.
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  246.  @elrevesyelderecho  Maybe you didn't know this but i'll go ahead and fill you in. Nobody cares what someone's opinions on Marx is. The economy was much different during his time when he wrote about his labor theory of value. What he wrote then isn't applicable in todays economy and has become outdated. Sadly for him, he's not immortal and cannot give us an updated version. Tough luck, but the position of socialism will remain as long as capitalism continues to fail. That's just the reality you will have to learn how to accept.
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  247.  @elrevesyelderecho  No buddy, those are government jobs paid with tax money. The market has nothing to do with that when it's our tax money that should be paying for those things. You don't seem to understand how things work. If you go out to a busy street and juggle some apples, maybe every passerby throws money in your bucket because they thought you looked funny. You're not generating value. People are just giving you money for making them laugh. Again, for the third and last time and if you still can't provide proof of someone working under the restraints of capitalism getting rich on hard work, then you're finished. Provide me proof that your system works. Show me an example of someone producing the needed goods and services that keeps the economy running, getting rich because they were working hard. Spoiler Alert! You can't actually show me proof because how things really work is like this: One store gets more traffic than another but employees in both stores get paid the same all the same. One store works harder than another but the current economy doesn't allow for hard work to be rewarded because the individuals who get to decide what they want to pay workers want to keep it for themselves.
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  248.  @elrevesyelderecho  I'll repeat again and try to make it more clear for you. I need you to point to someone that isn't in entertainment. The reason is easy to understand because i already mentioned the Bernie Sanders example in my first comment to you. I watch streamers on Twitch that make millions just playing games and that's because they get lots of donation money. Entertainment works waaaaay differently than the actual economy that keeps the lights on. I need you to point to any of these workers that keep your lights on is what i'm asking. Hope that made things a bit more clear for you.
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  249.  @elrevesyelderecho  You're only bringing up entertainers that are mostly independent and make their own contracts. Where are any examples of people participating in the production side of the economy, not the entertainment side. Anybody you can point to that works for someone else for example?
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  250. Well i think most people believe this because there has never been any example of a person becoming rich through genuine means. It's probably impossible to be rich being honest and hard working. The only example I can think of is Bernie Sanders becoming a millionaire after his book sold millions of copies. But this kind of example isn't what socialist have a problem with so it's a moot point.
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  251. Define "growth"
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  252. Yes, you are indeed. Anything else you need to add to your resume of "i'm the lowest common denominator."?
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  253. He's not saying Sweden is socialist and every socialist will tell you Sweden is not a socialist nation. The right-wing online who claim to live in Sweden disagree with you when thousands of them say "You don't know how bad socialism is. I live in Sweden and our socialist government [insert boohoo crybaby comment]" AND you made a mistake saying "socialist policies" and this is why people (rightwing) keep mistaking Sweden as a socialist nation. Those are SOCIAL policies not socialist. So to clarify things for you i'll use your own quote, thank you by the way: "It is actually one of the easiest places to do business in the world" --- An example of why we would point to this nation doing something good that America fails at.
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  254.  @johnsnow9887  I don't even understand what you wrote to be honest with you.
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  255. That's a question you can ask the Russian people directly. Russians are weird. A question i would have asked is why they allowed the USSR to be dissolved if over 80% voted in favor of keeping the USSR structure. Nothing ever makes sense with those silly Russians.
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  256. It doesn't. If funny that you believe that though.
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  257. You're at the bottom too. I'm quite certain that being at the bottom of society in wealth doesn't make someone useless and incompetent. You shouldn't bring yourself down so much with negative thoughts like that.
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  258.  @rustyyb8450  OK? This didn't answer the question at all.
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  259.  @drunklerob225  I've already pointed out the reality to you. If you want to convince socialist that capitalist do work then your task is very simple. Point us to any of these businesses that have workers and explain how these businesses can produce anything without them. Good luck!
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  260. Capitalist don't make things. That is honestly a silly remark because if someone owns land and rents it out to a contracting company to build on that land and extract resources from it, you are basically saying the landowner is the one extracting resources and providing it to the world. This is as bad as religious people taking their loved ones to the surgery room and then praying to God to heal their loved one, then when the doctors do a great job and have a successful surgery, the people then attribute their loved one getting healed by God. You will need to learn to face the facts of reality that workers are extremely important and are the ones who actually make the machine of the economy function in the first place. No business owner keeps their business running without workers except for sole proprietors like me.
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  261.  @oilselevated4808  I really do love the 'waiting in line' arguments lol It's funny because it's painfully obvious deception and dishonesty. It always comes down to what kind of surgery it is. Actual surgeons will say that depending on what surgery you are getting, you will need to wait a few months if it's not an emergency. This is a thing in America as well. This is because surgeons have their hands tied a lot of the time with actual life threatening cases on a daily basis. You'd be surprised how many patients are needed in the emergency room on the daily, and if the local hospital is overwhelmed with patients, then even someone who is in serious need of attention would be backlogged. It's not like we have an endless amount of surgeons that can see everyone as soon as possible. Maybe our fast food culture has warped your brain into thinking everything should be given to you immediately at your beck and call.
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  262.  @oilselevated4808  Silly is believing that it isn't a good thing. Americans pay 300 times more for medicine than anyone else that is on the better system. That's why America is ranked as low as 37th in the world.
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  263. All of the best healthcare systems are what you would call "socialist" though. Bringing up Canada doesn't help you at all since it's only ranked 30th, so basically you are pointing to a team that ranked 30th and suggesting that the top ten teams are just as bad as the one that's ranked as low as 30th. You're silly.
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  264.  @IgorGuerrero  Yeah I agree with you. I don't agree that the nations you listed are socialist though. There's never been a socialist nation as of yet and with how entrenched capitalism is with the now world economy, probably will never happen.
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  265.  @IgorGuerrero  Well yeah, people that call themselves democratic socialist are typically just liberals at the end of the day. I'm just glad they understand that Capitalism is flawed and sadly that's the best I could ask for.
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  266.  @IgorGuerrero  Yes the guest isn't advocating for complete Socialism which is fine. There is no practical way to completely change the capitalist system straight to a socialist one when sooo many people don't know what Socialism is or even want to give it a shot. I was asking you questions because I'm not sure exactly what page you are on but now I think I'm getting a picture of a language barrier.
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  267.  @IgorGuerrero  Just admit you have no clue what is even going on. Find me any socialist that points to the nations you listed as socialist. Find me at least one business in these nations that is collectively owned by the workers. Is the economy in the hands of the working class or is it in the private sector still? hmmmm? lol Also your cnn remark gave me a good laugh. I always love when zombies that consume propaganda are unable to realize that other anti-working class networks are also propaganda. I'm surprised it hasn't donged on people like you yet after how they did those railroad workers when they went on strike for better working conditions. I'm surprised you also missed how Biden handled them too. And you are in sooooo deep that you didn't even realize that socialist are considered "far left" for a reason. We don't like liberals like the democrats and and cnn. We don't like them because they don't care about the plight of the working class.
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  268.  @joeoleary9010  "And such great places to live, which really destroys his argument, huh?" Your comment gave me a good laugh lol. Yes those places are fantastic to live in at the moment! LMAO~
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  269. Your statements about socialism are very confusing. You said socialist and communist want to abolish private property but then listed Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela. Explain why you decided to list these nations after admitting the abolition of private property.
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  270. "so hard workers work for not so hard workers." Congrats on describing one of the issues with capitalism.
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  271.  @bloviatingbeluga8553  Yeah and nobody is talking to YOU so why are YOU butting into the conversation that YOU are not part of? Nothing about socialism failed at all. The work-life balance you enjoy right now is thanks to socialism. You think capitalism started with a 40 hour work week, weekends, sick days, vacation time, ect.? These benefits you enjoy now are thanks to the working class uniting and fighting for these. You think the Russians did their soviet revolution for fun and giggles? You think the coal miners in America fought the Battle of Blair Mountain because they thought it would be a cute story to tell their children? Learn some history guy.
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  272.  @DecayingReality  I love when the CIA brainwashing is so good that people believe Socialism means no food LMAO
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  273. [on knees] Please stop forcing your choice of libertarianism on to me. Your sense of freedom isn't the same as a normal person like me. Stop treating me as your enemy just because I don't agree with libertarianism and prefer the socialist perspective. I beg of you! Have mercy on me and stop shoving your view onto me!
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  274.  @fxgraphicslive  Unions are a step in the right direction. Unions were better in the 40's and 50's when they were strong and there were many. In present day America they are weaker so Union bosses tend to fail to represent the workers. This doesn't seem to be a problem with other nations though, like the Scandinavian nations like Denmark that don't even have a minimum wage thanks to stronger unions having the ability to negotiate on behalf of the workers. So essentially we need more Unions. Otherwise there is no other real answer short of revolution. This is why Karl Marx wrote in the communist manifesto "Workers of the world, unite!", because things wont ever get better unless workers learn to do that. We have made a ton of progress from the worst days of capitalism, you know, the coal mines and factory conditions back in the days. We all are already enjoying the fruits of those fights in the past. The first bombs dropped on American soil was from the business owner buying private planes to drop bombs on workers going on strike. This isn't a game, it's a real fight. It's class warfare.
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  275.  @fxgraphicslive  Your expectation doesn't seem reasonable to me. You seem to work under the assumption that it's easy to start a business. If I were to ask you to start a company right now, are you saying that you 100% can? And if you say that then why don't you? Also, capitalism is already a forced relationship, no? And whenever people try to start a Union, it is extremely hard to do so with union busting tactics. So we don't seem to be working within a voluntary system to begin with.
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  276. It's a thing sure, but isn't actually reflective of 99% of how the economy actually works. That's why he's talking. If what he's talking about was truly a substantial part of how the economy is done, then he would indeed sound silly.
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  277. You made a great argument for socialism describing how predatory capitalism is. Good work!
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  278. He is very boring and I don't agree with him but he's not describing what America has. He's talking about the Nordic model so if he was saying this stuff in the Scandinavian nations then yes, he would sound kind of ridiculous talking about what people already have lol
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  279.  @alexanderg8466  "I see it like The poor freely competing against the RICH AND POWERFUL. NO TAXES NO regulation NO minimum wage for the poor." ---- How on earth do you propose the poor compete with the rich? No taxes? What do you mean by this statement? too vague. No minimum wage? How do you propose a fix to the problem of minimum wage? I already have the solution to this that can be verified but i really want to see your answer first. "Capitalism is the only system that works" Define "works"... there's been many systems throughout history that 'worked' but we still decided to transition out of it because it was horrible. A dictatorship works very well but that sort of goes against freedom. Same is true of capitalism (private ownership of the means of production) where only a few truly have the ability to own a business and the rest of people have no choice but to work for them and be at their mercy.
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  280.  @alexanderg8466  The only thing that is utopian is your defense of capitalism to be completely honest with you. The best you could do was say that you are fine with workers not getting paid for the work they do. I would like to hire you and pay you the bare minimum, i own a business by the way but i work it myself. But if a defender of capitalism decides that workers don't deserve pay then i'll happily hire you folk and be the capitalist of your dreams.
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  281.  @alexanderg8466  You've been avoiding the questions posed. I can't blame you though because it's a difficult position arguing such a position. "In real capitalist system people would pay workers as they want." --- I like this remark from you. I really like reading fantasy and fan fictions. I still have that kid in me that likes to pretend things, so i'm willing to pretend with you that right now there is no such thing as real capitalism. Only fake capitalism currently exists because business owners have no ability to pay their workers fairly. The business owners really wish they could give all their wealth to the workers but fake capitalism doesn't allow for it. It is an impossible task.
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  282.  @alexanderg8466  So tldr; "I don't believe workers should be paid according to their production. They all should be paid the same regardless." ????
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  283.  @alexanderg8466  Yikes! Be careful before you make remarks like "that is dumb" Read again carefully. I didn't say that one of the stores was not profitable. They are both obviously profitable, but one is bringing in more profit due to more traffic. Now, try again.
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  284. Debate me please. Here's the socialist position that harkens to what Karl Marx was talking about: There are two McDonald's stores and one store gets more traffic than another. That means that the workers in one store are producing more value to the business than the other. Why then in capitalism do employees of both stores get paid the exact same as if they are doing the exact same workload? Should the workers not see the success they bring to a business reflected in their paycheck? Why does the surplus value only go straight to the top? Thoughts?
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  285.  @airbjorn4435  I don't buy the excuses you just made because how do we afford the 100 billion every year in corporate subsidies? Or the many other billions our government gives away to random stuff passed in congress? These countries i've brought up actually have higher immigration per capita than America. 12 million immigrants is only 3% of our total population so i don't see how this is any issue at all.... You need better excuses than this.
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  286.  @airbjorn4435  I have friends that live there but even without their opinions, I think anyone can see that they have more public programs that are very beneficial. Having basic healthcare taken care of through taxes for example helps older folk who are retired and don't have much income to speak of. This is already so much better than America where older folk are hammered hard with medical expenses. Retirement funds only go so far.
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  287. Socialist have already been telling America to copy successful nations for a few years now. The Nordic model has been a tremendous success and it's a shame America was not able to beat anyone to the punch, and even has fallen way behind the rest of the world.
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  288. The Russians left a nasty scar on your face. Take some time to heal it, remove that red scar, and then come back and actually listen to what he's saying.
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  289.  @majorjockitch  Proving what exactly? So far i've only told you the truth of the historical violence of nations, as well as refer you to a video that explains why socialist don't agree with this guest.
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  290.  @majorjockitch  I hate to remind a person what they said but you definitely didn't specify how the violence was done. Your claim was that all of the nations he used as examples had a violent history. I was just making sure you understood that every nation has had history of violence, even on their own people by the way.
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  291. There isn't a single system that came into power without violence. Socialist like me don't like these so-called democratic socialist and there's a great video explaining why that is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRq3pl17C8M
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  292.  @Pteromandias  It sounds to me like you are intimidated by the intelligence of people on the left, which by the way doesn't make you less of a person or anything because it's perfectly natural based on scientific research of human behavior. My question is that are you truly listening to what they are saying, or are you getting caught up on how you feel about them too often? For example, in a time of slavery ending, there are some white folk who will say that slaves are arrogant and full of hubris. This might be a true statement because there could be some slaves that act that way due to their own personal experiences when comparing to the white man who never had to live as a slave. But those white folk who say that about slaves don't seem to be listening to what the slaves are actually talking about. Those white folk seem to only complain about the demeanor of the slaves when talking to them rather than the arguments that are being made. Maybe instead of getting caught up in emotions on how you feel someone else is acting, actually engage with their arguments and then use an example for others that the ones you spoke to failed to address. I have an example that not a single person in these video comments were capable of addressing. I've literally copied and pasted it to multiple people to see if any naysayers of socialism had an answer for it.
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  293.  @Pteromandias  "And it is an objective fact that people on the left tend to be less willing to listen to opposing views than people on the right" --- I'll throw you a bone and agree that there definitely can be people on the left that are unwilling to hear anything a right winger has to say. Same can easily be said of people on the right though and more so than those on the left. Whether or not I agree with someone on the left disregarding what a right winger has to say, wholly depends on the arguments the right winger is using. A simple example, and no i'm not saying that this is a right wing position; Let's say someone was making horrible arguments for why they think the earth is flat as a pancake. If someone decided to disregard what the flat earther had to say, I could not blame them for doing so.
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  294.  @Pteromandias  To be fair, this thread is already outrageously long and you haven't said one thing about the interview when i've nudged you to do so. You're complaining about people in comments harping on his 'glorious' speech but your also harping on irrelevant stuff too. My first comment to you was me agreeing with your point, and it appeared like you got offended that I was talking about you needing pleading. So since you took offense to it and literally said "He doesn't need to plead with me to have this guest on", I logically assumed that it applies to you as well. Why else would you have reacted that way? You even gave a narrative of "the right is curious about what the left has to say, and the left is aggressively dogmatic and don't want anything outside their epistemic bubble to even touch them. They don't want to hear anything but their own angry resentful voice." --- So my other logical assumption is that you are rightwing. Now you continue to harp about very logical conclusions that i've come to based purely on your reactions and the things you've said. This is boring and pointless, so how about just saying what you disagree with in the interview, and i'll respond in turn?
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  295.  @Pteromandias  Yeah no duh. But you still mentioned that lex didn't push back on what the guest was saying, which any logical person should be capable of concluding, that others will interpret that as you being disappointed in that. English can be difficult to understand, especially through text when it's so easy to get interpreted wrongly. If that's the claim you want to walk with, that's fine by me. Use this as a learning experience. As far as your complaint of not enough people were pushing back is concerned, i've already pointed out that plenty of people have tried and i've responded to the majority of them. Whatever pushback they were attempting was simply them not knowing anything about the topic of the conversation. What problems do you have with what the guest has to say. As a socialist, i can point out problems with the guest I have but i'd like to hear your rightwing take on it.
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  296.  @Pteromandias  " I was hoping for some conversation on here about some of the things this guest said that Lex didn't push back on."
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  297. That's just normal human behavior. That's why governments, especially America's, is full of people that are full of hot air. What's really sad is that Lex feels the need to plead with his right-wing audience just to have a guest on that's in complete contrast with their beliefs.
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  298.  @DavidHalko  "moan about the government not doing more" You're a gold mine lol
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  299.  @DavidHalko  "Picking up the slack from workers who had been screwed by Unions" Oh boy he doesn't know. He has no idea lol!
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  300.  @DavidHalko  "You clearly don’t like to read real accounts about how socialists destroy the lives of Americans, today. " Someone tell this guy already lol! He enjoys a 8 hour work day and a 40 work week, probably has vacation time and makes enough to put bread on the table. He says socialist destroy the lives of Americans LMAO!
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  301.  @DavidHalko  "Socialist government" 🤣 yeah after that statement I'm even going to read the rest of your silly gibberish lol Socialist government! LOL!
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  302.  @DavidHalko  You do know that you're not 100% free right now right? If you are in a position right now where you are self sufficient, able to take care of needs and security then you are in a very priviledged position. Don't get me wrong, i'm very happy to hear that but what this conversation is about is the working class constantly getting screwed over. If we are living in this perfect Utopia that you seem to act like we are in, workers wouldn't feel the need to fight for Unionization or go on strike like those railroad workers did. Capitalism has many problems and socialist point those problems out. If you are unsatisfied with an answer a socialist would give then you need to figure out how to fix that problem yourself so you don't have to worry about what a socialist thinks should be done. Fix the problem numb nut.
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  303. Dude..... You need to learn how to understand what you are listening too. All he's saying is that he doesn't have all the answers which is being humble. He's not lying in your face and saying that doing away with capitalism is going to be a perfect Utopia. Getting triggered by someone being honest makes you look like an unhinged phycho.
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  304.  @janinedalbey2448  Ok you're actually unhinged lol Everything that you are pointing out with democrats, union leaders getting corrupted and stuff is literally the socialist point about capitalism being so flawed that you literally have to completely do away with it. You're so far off the deep end you don't even realize you make my arguments for me LMAO!
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  305.  @janinedalbey2448  Tell me what part of this conversation lines up with this Victor David Hanson guy. What exactly do you want me to listen to? I obviously will not agree with the vast majority of what this guy says because just a peek into some of the crap he talks about, he's just dead wrong on what little I just listened to. Let me tell you something, When workers feel the need to fight for unionization and even go on strike for better working conditions like those railroad workers did, then something is very wrong with the capitalist system. If taxes are more than 50% of what an average middle class person is making after necessary living expenses are accounted for, then there is something very wrong with the capitalist system. At least in nations like Denmark, people get a return on their investments (taxes). There was a good interview Bernie Sanders did with the Ambassador of Finland that puts a lot into perspective. I think that's something YOU need to listen to.
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  306.  @janinedalbey2448  That's your only complaints of their system? That's honestly sounding like a Utopia compared to what America has. You make a good case for us socialist lol
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  307.  @janinedalbey2448  my guy.... I'm not a "democratic socialist".. I literally said I hate people that refer to themselves as a democratic socialist because it's a cowardly thing to do. When someone says they are a democratic socialist, what they are saying is they support the socialist stance that Capitalism is not working and we need something that can actually bring checks and balances to the market so the working class doesn't keep getting screwed; But democratic socialist know that people became scared of the word Socialism so they add democratic in front to make it seem less scary for those who consume lots of anti-socialist rhetoric. I'm fine with their perspectives because they aren't full blown socialist that thinks the only fair way to organize the economy is by making sure it's in the hands of the working class, rather than the rich elites. They only suggest we should have safety nets in place to help put a bandaid on the failures in the capitalist system. Basically what this translates to is the Nordic model, aka the Scandinavian nations.
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  308.  @janinedalbey2448  Yes i did. He's not even a socialist which is why he even admits himself as a democratic socialist. What this translates to is literally the Nordic model. As a socialist myself i dislike people that call themselves democratic socialist but at the same time i don't mind their perspective. You either don't understand what this conversation is about or you just enjoy pissing in the fountain.
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  309. So you decided to comment and not listen to anything he said? What if i respond to you with a "how could you think that a dictatorship is so wonderful? You truly think the era of kings and queens was the greatest thing since sliced bread too?!" ???? It's silly isn't it? Pay attention and understand what is being said before saying something.
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  310. People who are more invested in the business become more motivated to be involved. It's been proven every time with every worker cooperative business that has come into existence. When you become a stakeholder of the company and your success is tied to the business, you will indeed become more serious about making sure the machine runs correctly.
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  311. Thomas Sowell is not at all a good candidate to debate any socialist let alone a "democratic socialist" sorry to say. You might think there are many flaws in his line of thinking but there are thousands of examples of capitalism being very flawed. To put things into perspective for you i'll use Sowell's mentor Milton Friedman as an example. Remember that time when Friedman visited Hong Kong and said "if you want to see how the free market really works, this is the place to come."? Well he must have missed the people living in cages and having to pay rent on it along with the fact that since the power vacuum of the government being gone, it's the large corporations that rule over people instead. Yeah, these kinds of guys can't hold a candle to a socialist, i'm sorry.
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