Comments by "Wandering Existence" (@WanderingExistence) on "Secular Talk"
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"From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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They have never cared about the Innocent... "From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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I mean... He is not wrong!
"From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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Jesse is right, and to be honest capitalism is just based on renting human beings as if they are property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract. Like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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This is the lady that said there was a ceasefire on October 6th.... Um... "From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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SHillary said there was a ceasefire on October 6... This is what she thinks of ceasefire looks like; "From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.”
– MLK, Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.
“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”
- MLK, Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.”
– MLK, Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
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“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.”
– MLK, Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.
“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”
- MLK, Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.”
– MLK, Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
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“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.”
– MLK, Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.
“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”
- MLK, Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.”
– MLK, Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
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Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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"From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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It's not just private equity it's capitalism in general! Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.”
– MLK, Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.
“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”
- MLK, Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.”
– MLK, Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
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“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.”
– MLK, Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.
“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”
- MLK, Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.”
– MLK, Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
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Employment is just renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property, a wage is basically just a dividend on human capital. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other as human beings.
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“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.”
– MLK, Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.
“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”
- MLK, Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.”
– MLK, Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
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We can't just break them up, we have to change the way they are structured; we need economic democracy. Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. https://youtu.be/MObfh_VNqs4
Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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It's been t3®®0®1$m for decades... "From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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Oof. The woman that said there was a ceasefire before the on the 6th...
"From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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"From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.”
– MLK, Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.
“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”
- MLK, Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.”
– MLK, Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
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Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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@causticgastrap2835 Thank you very much! If you don't mind me sharing one possible solution that I found, I don't mean to monologue but I've thought a lot about this stuff. Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. https://youtu.be/MObfh_VNqs4 Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract. Like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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@X2LR8 Then explain the inflammatory action of moving the US embassy to Jerusalem or this;
"From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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Democratic socialism is not social democracy (capitalist welfare). Democratic socialism pushes for economic democracy in the workplace.
“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.”
– MLK, Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.
“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”
- MLK, Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.”
– MLK, Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
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“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.”
– MLK, Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.
“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”
- MLK, Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.”
– MLK, Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
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The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract. Like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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@CarlGerhardt1 "From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. https://youtu.be/MObfh_VNqs4 Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract. Like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.”
– MLK, Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.
Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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@saltyp123 So you don't think there's anything wrong with feudalism or slave societies, because it's "just a system"... Bruh? If a system incentivizes people to act on bad behaviors, like putting greed before all else, that is a bad system that creates bad incentives for people!
The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract. Like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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@X2LR8 I just find it odd that self-defense is okay if it's 🇮🇱 BUT 🇵🇸 going through 57yrs of military control by a foreign government and you don't understand how the Oct7 was literally self defense after decades of human rights violations? That's what I don't get. They literally had peaceful marches in 2018 and 2019... But 🇮🇱 just pew-pew'd 200 of them.
"From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
If 🇮🇱 going to light up civilians on the reg in a foreign country... Then that's not self defense. That's just military colonialism.
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"From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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@Choosewisely-hb9nj As a veteran, shouldn't you know that this country was kick started based on a list of "crying" grievances called the 🇺🇸Declaration of Independence? 🇺🇸 I have a copy hanging up right behind me- I'm a leftist that likes the Declaration Of Independence and Constitution🇺🇸; what's funny is that I don't think you could cope with the fact that I don't align with the identity politics you think I should have 🤡
I hope you know that people crying about change led to the revolutionary war and thus American independence from Britain, as well as civil rights and labor rights. But I'm sure you'd rather be working 10 hours a day 6 days a week, on low wages, with no benefits, much more hazardous work conditions and no workers' compensation.... American socialists fought for those labor rights.
"Cry babies like Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, and Adams had to go grieve to the king, they should just shut up and be loyalists- don't try to improve the country because it's already as good as it can get, the Protestant Church of England says so (Gods will)" 🤮🤮🤮 That's what you'd sound like if you got transported back to 1776
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Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. https://youtu.be/MObfh_VNqs4
Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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@TheFifthWorld22 Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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@davidsenderodelsanto Okay, that's an idea, but how does that make any sense? It strikes me as unhuman, or unnatural, to come to such a stable resting position, and frankly, it's not very Hegelian. I appreciate the theory of dialectical materialism, but I don't like the Marxist supposed divination of the future. For Hegel, there is no predictive power in the dialectic; Becoming is always the yet to be determined facts in the now of being and nothingness. As long as there is Being, there will always be a dialectical push towards Becoming. The culmination of the present into the future is contextual and I see no reason why future humans wouldn't arrange themselves differently post-communism if material conditions changed.
In this, I very much prefer Zizek's revival of Hegel and Lacan to extract ideas that were blind to Marx and Engels, and even Hegel and Lacan themselves. 'Communism' itself is an ideal, and thus "pure communism" (or capitalism, or any -ism for that matter) will never be fully realized, as it will always be mediated through material reconciliations with the idealistic vision. I don't see how classlessness is idealistically reconcilable with the human psyche that is often projecting an 'I' of importance. Seems like something that will fall into a new dialectic as soon as the Commons are realized.
Personally, I don't think it was very Becoming of Marx to do Hegel like that.
.... Ok, sorry, bad dad joke.
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@1986tessie Running with the feudalist symbolism, you seem to defend royal kings, queens, lords and ladies that violently subjugated the poor as their bonded property (serfdom)- you don't think it was good to rise up against feudalism?? You probably think fighting against slavery was bad too... The Civil War was America's bloodiest war, and yes, I'm happy Gen. Grant violently broke the slave owning South. If you don't think fighting against slave masters is justified, you're disgusting.
Shifting back to a modern frame, I mean, you're against resisting an establishment that has perpetuated actual war for profit. We can go through history from the Banana wars- murdering people for fucking bananas- to our longest wars in the Middle East for oil, with the US Govt supporting a terrorist state (Saudi). Don't act like politicians don't use violence every single day that murders innocent people, and don't act like fighting against evil people is "wrong". Maybe I've just read too much political philosophy that I've been desensitized to the notion that violence is basically inherent in politics. You accept the notion that violence doesn't solve anything, yet seem to be okay with a country that uses violence to "solve" so much.
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@uioplkhj lmao, apologetics to the max can you find any more excuses out of your magic hat. Next you're going to tell me the Hannibal Directive wasn't a real thing.
"From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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Democratic socialism. Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. https://youtu.be/MObfh_VNqs4
Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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@christopherweise438 "I would prefer not to." - Bartleby from 'Bartleby, The Scrivener' by Herman Melville (It's short story in the public domain available on here in audio, just saying, it's a book).
Look man, as a progressive, I had one condition to vote for the corporate oligarchy that is the Democratic Party. KH (that little girl that was bussed to integrate the schools, that little girl with civil rights parents) clearly said that she'll continue to support a country that is explicit racial segregation. They steal land, they target med workers and journalists, and they commit Jen O'Side. I'm willing to put up with a lot of hypocrisy from politicians, but this is a step too far. What you guys don't seem to realize is that I'm not the problem, the fact that the democratic voting base doesn't make more of an issue out of this is actually the problem here.
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Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local for key anchor institutions and contract service to cooperatives. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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The employer-employee relationship is that actually a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract. Like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at least capitalism needs safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class.
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@superdog797 That's not just one setup of capitalism, it's all capitalism. Private land enclosure started to really pop up during the first half of the 1500s in England, as the Protestant Reformation started. King Henry VIII seized Catholic estates and village Commons and violently turned them into private plots to be sold off. You can go back 500 years, 100 years before John Locke, and the government is still the reason why capitalism exists 🤦🏼 You keep saying it's "antithetical to capitalism".... Yeah, real world capitalism is not a platonic form. It's almost like there was a philosopher who talked about how capitalism created antithetical situations in which it contradicted itself and would break down 🤔🤔🤔
You literally just think socialism is government.... Which is the most low watt understanding of the term. Socialism just means workers control of the means of production, so anarchists who organize their economy through trade unions are considered anarcho socialists (anarcho-syndicalists to be specific, like Noam Chomsky). George Orwell was NOT a big fan of big brother and he was a democratic socialist. There are many types of socialists that believe in freedom.
To summarize, basically, you don't understand definitions and you don't understand that platonic forms don't necessarily exist in the real world..... So basically just another discussion with a right wing libertarian :/ Say something that's not NPC dialogue, plz.
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@superdog797 The employer-employee relationship is that actually a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract. Like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at least capitalism needs safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class.
So to answer your question, yes capitalism is better at creating economic growth because it is based on incentivizing the maximization of profit, and reinvesting that profit to create more profit at all costs.... Even if that means commodifying humans, buying out the government, and spraying negative externalities all over the globe. Renting people as objects and shifting costs onto innocent living beings through industrial pollution are not morally righteous. People who support democratic socialism want a human happiness index to be a more important number than GDP. You can still compound wealth in socialism, you just do it more ethically by treating people as human beings and not commodities be rented by the hour as if they were machines.
You say socialism doesn't work, but personally, I've been interested in a grassroots movement called the Next System Project. They have devised a way to keep production local for key anchor institutions and contract service to cooperatives. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too. You can look up the channel the Laura Flanders show, she has a great intro slogan; "where the people who say it can't be done, take a backseat to the people who are actually doing it".
I think my "favorites" folder on my channel is public, you can see a 50-second video on what a democratic economy looks like (also notice the two high level finance lectures in my playlists, from MIT and Yale... I understand economics fairly well).
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@superdog797 It's really not propaganda, the term "human capital" is a neoliberal phrase use by capitalist economists... This isn't socialist theory, this is Reagan/ Thatcher type neoliberal economists. If you look at the neoliberal economics of it, literally just understanding time preference, which is what rent, interest, and yes, also wages are. I can make all the similarities of human capital to normal capital; healthcare is maintenance, housing is storage, food is fuel, education is an investment in more productive parts. So a big problem is, since wages are suppressed by globalism, and real wages in the US are the same as 50 years ago, but the inflation rate of healthcare education and housing have all far exceeded averaged CPI inflation numbers.
We have costs that are rising exponentially, but real wages that haven't gone up in 50 years... If you have a rental house that's more expensive to maintain then you receive in rental payments, you won't be able to afford to keep that property for long. When it is human capital, that would be someone going bankrupt due to medical bills or just very ill because they can't afford the medication or procedure. Personally, I'm functionally disabled due to my PTSD, I used to be able to hold down a job but now I can't... So that's medical bills with no income other than occasionally selling stocks and bonds. Normally we just throw out an old piece of equipment, but we can't do that with human beings. 60% of Americans struggle with making ends meet.
As a socialist, cooperatives are not the end-all be all of socialist ideas... Its one piece. In the 1600s you had private businesses on land enclosures but the system was still mainly feudalism. Let's also remember there were a lot of violent beheadings in the French revolution that capitalists conducted to end feudalism... Do you want me accuse you that capitalists decapitate people on the regular? Don't act like radical systemic change doesn't often incur violence. Just because there were some capitalistic enterprises doesn't mean capitalists would be happy with feudal lords still ruling most of the land and resources- so a few co-ops on a capitalistic globe is no consolation. Serfdom is not legally recognized in a capitalist system, is that somehow so horrible because we don't give somebody the freedom to institute serfdom? No, because we moved to a system that believes in more freedom for individuals.... when you are allowed to own and control what you produce it. Going back to the old system that restricts you to taking the directives of a wealthy capital owner is like saying you want to go back to aristocracy instead of having a democratic vote, because a co-op literally gives you a democratic vote in your economy. Granted I think there is a place for small scale rentals and wage employment because some people don't want to own a house and don't want to be tasked with figuring out what the organization should do. But for the people who do to have a say in how they're government and economy is run, then they can have a vote- if they don't want to vote they don't have to.
To address your point on just letting them compete in the market; capitalists want to maximize profits, unfortunately easy ways to do that include (legally) not being socially and ecologically responsible. When there are companies that are keeping money that they can reinvest to make more profit off of being irresponsible and you have another firm spending money trying to be responsible they creates a huge difference in the amount of capital they can reinvest. The other thing is, cooperatives don't want to grow endlessly. They work for their members, when extra growth doesn't make their lives better why should they do it? More profit doesn't mean they'll be happier. And that's the main difference, you're evaluating two systems by two totally different sets of values. Socialism will never compound wealth at the same rates capitalism does, which has a negative effect on material standard of wealth, but on the flip side capitalism will never be socially accountable to the people who work for the economy. At a certain point, it's really just a choice to value people before profit✌️
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It's the Union 💪 Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. https://youtu.be/MObfh_VNqs4
Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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Um it didn't start on the 7th...
"From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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@Choosewisely-hb9nj Trump loves this land so much that he stole national security documents and commits fraud on the regular? 🤔 The top three things Trump loves the most, in order, are 1) Donald J Trump then its 2) Donald J Trump, and rounding out the top 3 is... Donald J Trump. Lol. The dude is so narcissistic He thought being the president made him dictator; Do you remember during lockdowns when Trump had to be reminded by his lawyers that he's NOT in complete control of the United States, he thought he could control governors like he's a dictator... Stand against federalism and the separation of powers is pretty anti-American. What a joke 🤡🤡🤡
Anyway, why I go with democratic socialism? Because its a system that believes in treating people like human beings (instead of as commodities) and securing freedom and equality for all. This is why people like George Orwell, Albert Einstein, and Martin Luther King Jr were all democratic socialists. Most all economic Buddhism is socialist, as well. This means addressing the various types of authoritarianism, like governmental, economic, racial, sexist, militarism, and ecological disaster. I'll end on a few quotes from Martin Luther King Jr;
“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.”
– Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.
“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”
- Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.”
–Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
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@craiggles8454 The inequality aspect is on multiple fronts; first and foremost it's about power. Power to have a say in the institutions that run your life- This concept is called self-determination and it's the reason why we have political democracy. I believe economic democracy is merely an extension of such political rights to autonomy. The ability to determine working hours, conditions, benefits, and pay allow the workers of an organization to have more control over their lives than renting their days out to the authority of a capital owner. Employment is renting a human being by the hour or year, just like you might rent a tool from Home Depot or lease a car from the dealership.... Except, it's a human being.
From a democratic way of handling power stems different ways of spreading resources. I don't think inequality can ever be completely overcome, but I believe in narrowing the range in which inequality occurs, Because you're right Pareto distributions show up everywhere. Instead of having companies that have pay ratios of 100-1000X between the highest and lowest earners, cooperatives usually have bylaws that restrict the highest salary to be 10 to 30 times that of the lowest.
I will admit that capitalism will inevitably grow faster than socialism, capitalism by its very nature incentivizes maximizing profit and reinvesting/ compounding said profit to make more profits. Capitalism compounds wealth fast- unfortunately it does so by exploiting people by renting them, corrupts governments by buying them, and destroys the environment by polluting it. It's not just a few bad apples; exploitation, corruption, and pollution are inherent in the ways that markets push companies to maximize profits or else risk going out of business by being less competitive. Capitalism's wealth comes at a cost; those costs being, Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (Ironic for Americans) In socialism you can still compound wealth but compounding wealth is seen as less of a priority than compounding improvements in other aspects of life.
I definitely agree that health insurance definitely should be nationalized. I'm also very much in favor of govt funded PreK-12, 2 year associates degree or trade school, and low/ no interest loans from a public bank for masters and PhDs. We need to make it easier to have a more educated society, especially with democracy.
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"In the 11 years since then, Evergreen Cooperatives has added three more cooperatives to its ranks, growing from two companies with a total of 18 workers in 2010 to five companies with approximately 320 workers. Those workers are paid 20 to 25 percent higher than employees at the cooperative’s competitors. “Our average pay rate is close to $15,” says John McMicken, CEO of Evergreen Cooperative Initiative. “But when you take profit sharing into account, which could equate to $4 to $5 an hour, we’re hoping that we have a shot at breaking the $20 an hour ‘blended rate,’ if you will.” In 2019, the average compensation at Evergreen Cooperative Laundry was around $18 per hour." - Despite a Rocky Start, Cleveland Model for Worker Co-ops Stands Test of Time, by Brandon Duong
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@justsomeguy6336 First, I'll respectfully let you know off the top that I did explain that debt is a social fiction that is negotiable, please look into the tradition of the jubilee to see how debts were regularly expunged. But seriously, I encourage you to read 'Debt' not just because of a silly yt argument, but because I found it very informative on understanding what debt and money is. He debunks the notion of barter and lays bear the fact that all money is a debt either to the state or each other. HERE'S THE COOL PART; the PDF is FREE and the audiobook is FREE here on yt! I tried linking to it a couple times but I don't know if yt shadow deleted those, but just search it. It's not for a yt debate with some other guy, it's because it is a critically acclaimed book about something you seem to be interested in- it's a genuine recommendation for you, not for me. That's the core point, it will be useful to you.
Never was the point that debt is not important, it's just that it's a negotiable social fiction and not bound by some universal demand to mathematically reconcile all debts. Interest payments are largely a function of credit risk, risk necessarily entails the acceptance of the uncertainty that money might not be repaid. When talking about US Treasury bonds compared to corporate bonds there is an agreement that treasuries hold less credit risk than corporations due to the fact that the US government has the ability to tax and create demand for its own money, in coordination with the FED, based on its legal powers of institutional violence.
Dip your toe in the water, the first chapter David graeber recalls a conversation with a lawyer for a NGO in which she literally says "But don't debts have to be repaid?!". This is used as a jumping-off as he examines the history of the usage of debt and how it has illegitimately subjugated many cultures. It makes sense that not all debts have to be repaid when you learn about the debt of Haiti to France for trying to free itself from literal slavery, only to find themselves indebted to their former masters. In the conclusion, he reiterates how debts don't have to be repaid because it's all made up. It's useful to make credit, but it's not useful to bind society to usury. Credit is a social extrapolation of promises that must be used wisely to up lift, not to suppress and exploit.
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@ELTEAESS Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. https://youtu.be/MObfh_VNqs4
Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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@John-gi6yh "That's not how life works"... Um, co-ops exist. You're actually like a pro-feudalist as capitalism started to take over; systems change and people adapt.
"In the 11 years since then, Evergreen Cooperatives has added three more cooperatives to its ranks, growing from two companies with a total of 18 workers in 2010 to five companies with approximately 320 workers. Those workers are paid 20 to 25 percent higher than employees at the cooperative’s competitors. “Our average pay rate is close to $15,” says John McMicken, CEO of Evergreen Cooperative Initiative. “But when you take profit sharing into account, which could equate to $4 to $5 an hour, we’re hoping that we have a shot at breaking the $20 an hour ‘blended rate,’ if you will.” In 2019, the average compensation at Evergreen Cooperative Laundry was around $18 per hour." - Despite a Rocky Start, Cleveland Model for Worker Co-ops Stands Test of Time, by Brandon Duong
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@Khalkara Dude, you've provided no sources, just baseless rhetoric. The anthropologist David Graeber has shown how credit markets historically are different from capital markets (in his book Debt: the First 5,000 Years). Graeber was a socialist too, so maybe you're calling him "not a real socialist" because he understood the difference between capitalistic markets and non-capitalist markets. So, historically speaking, you're just incorrect, but we both know you have an inability to accept when you're wrong. See what cheeky thing I did there? The arrogance. Jeez, get a grip; cite a source or argue against my source.
Market socialism abolishes private property and capital's control over production. Ownership is socialized because democracy becomes a legal right, that's VERY different from private property that alienates workers, tenants, and debtors. Personal property doesn't come with the right to alienate people by capital, which is why every member is entitled to a vote. Labor suffrage is very socialist. Robert Owen was creating socialist communities while Marx was a child, get over it.
Being able to form cooperative associations is just like how you get to decide with your friends what you do in their company (yes, I do mean the double entender of social companionship and an economic enterprise); you don't ask me to vote on what your group does when I'm not in your personal circle. Regulations, trade unions, and community involvement are important, but so is a degree of personal autonomy.
Personally, I think hybrid co-ops are important because they allow workers, consumers, and aspects of the community to have a voice in the institutions they utilize. I get that some socialists want everyone to have a vote, but I think people closer to the affects of the institution should have more say. Saying labor should control production is not anti-socialist... Do you realize what a trade union is, right? Workers in one industry voting on economic positions and excluding/ alienating anyone not in the industry. Are you gonna tell me the long, long, long history of trade unionism was not historically socialist? You're sectarian as hell if you think labor control of the workplace isn't a key aspect of the socialist vein; have you heard of the labor theory of value? It's not even funny, it's just annoying how you won't cite any sources or thinkers after being asked multiple times. Your rhetoric isn't convincing, especially when you downplay the labor movement aspect of socialism.
Here's a question for you; please, politely, explain how you plan to make any form of market unnecessary? How do non-basic/ "luxury goods" get distributed, like who gets handcrafted furniture versus mass produced furniture? People need furniture but there is a difference between basic goods that meet basic needs and high quality goods that exceed any reasonable sense of "need". As such, platitudes like "according to need" makes no sense. How is economic information aggregated? Like I said, I'm not dogmatically for markets, so if you show me something good I might change my tune. Rather than just saying "you're wrong", show me a better way, please.
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Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local for key anchor institutions and contract service to cooperatives. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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It's not new...😢
"From 2008 until 6 October 2023, 1,434 Palestinian children were reportedly killed, with an additional 32,175 sustaining injuries, primarily at the hands of Israeli occupation forces. Of these, 1,025 children were killed in Gaza alone, since the unlawful blockade began in 2007." - UN Human Rights, ‘Unchilded’ from birth: UN expert calls for decisive protection of Palestinian children under Israeli rule, 24 October 2023
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