Comments by "Conor." (@conor.3875) on "Is Abortion Murder? | Middle Ground" video.

  1.  @travisjohnson7065  A consenting woman carrying one?
    259
  2.  @travisjohnson7065  No human anywhere has the right to live inside someone else's body. Be serious.
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  3.  @commentstealer4460  That's the best you can do, is it?
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  4.  @lopez8872  No she didn't. A person doesn't have to forfeit any kind of healthy sex life to not consent to pregnancy.
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  5. No, being a parent isn't the scariest thing in the world. Forced parenthood gets pretty close, though. That sounds seriously dystopian.
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  6.  @travisjohnson7065  Why do you keep trying to tell people that they agree with you really? You do this often enough for it to sound like a coping mechanism. You ought to have managed to make peace with the fact that not everyone thinks like you. That's a pretty basic thing to accept about the world before going into an argument with someone.
    9
  7. At the first few weeks it has basically nothing that makes a life valuable. It's alive like an onion is alive.
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  8.  @matt1325  You aren't treating a person as valuable if you use them as an incubator against their will. That's very crassly dehumanising.
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  9. So?
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  10. And that would be your choice to put your own life at risk. I don't think you can justly say that should be forced on anyone.
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  11. Other people don't get to use your body. If someone else's life depends on them using your body for life support, you have the right to say no to it. That's just not something we force on people.
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  12. The majority of the time, people having sex are not seeking to procreate. So no, procreation is not the primary purpose of sex.
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  13.  @lopez8872  Running the risk of something doesn't mean you have to accept it if it comes to pass. Think about what you risk when you cross a road or get into a car.
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  14.  @xkingxcj2015  You really need to get out more if you actually think that's the only way unwanted pregnancies come about.
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  15.  @Phin-germayas  How do you get that from what I just said to you, exactly?
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  16. All that bluster just to call someone ugly...
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  17. Abortion isn't an exercise in blame.
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  18. Nah.
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  19.  @zachman5150  What makes you think that?
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  20.  @zachman5150  How so?
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  21.  @zachman5150  ^Your response when asked to support your claim. How weak.☹
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  22.  @zachman5150  Weak. You made the claim about what it illustrates. It's on you to make an argument for why. Actually put something up or go back to eating your crayons.
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  23.  @justapotato2434  Sex isn't designed to procreate and it doesn't the majority of the time it's engaged in, so no it wouldn't.
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  24.  @justapotato2434  "Why do people have sex if not to procreate" is essentially what you're asking, and that's quite a simple question.
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  25.  @justapotato2434  Well, "its purpose" is how you kept wording it. That doesn't mean what it does. That means why it's done.
    5
  26. They fail sometimes. The world isn't perfect.
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  27. Who cares whether life starts at conception or not?
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  28.  @matt1325  Your argument using nature to determine whether something is a moral obligation does in fact make it fallacious.
    4
  29. Nah.
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  30.  @matt1325  Strawman.
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  31. They all fail sometimes. The world ain't perfect.
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  32. It pretty much is a human life from conception. What does that mean for the discussion moving forward, though? Not very much, in my opinion.
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  33. Consent to playing baseball isn't consent to breaking anything. This would be a point worth making if there were people arguing that someone who plays baseball should be forced to break things.
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  34.  @zachman5150  So literally asking the relevance of something is irrelevant...
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  35.  @zachman5150  Nice, but, the etymology of the word, "fetus", (which was actually given incorrectly) isn't an argument for any of that, so the OP remains irrelevant. Well done for "ascertain", though.
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  36.  @norahal8310  We don't force women to incubate eagle eggs either, so no we don't.
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  37.  @chaeyuuu2193  Not entirely true, what you initially said, then.
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  38. No, you can.
    3
  39. It's their bodies being used. The final say is theirs.
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  40.  @matt1325  Targeting someone's character isn't always an ad hominem.
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  41.  @zachman5150  "so they really have no business blaming anyone but themselves" So what was the point of this?
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  42.  @zachman5150  And what's the basis for it?
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  43.  @zachman5150  That's the literal negation of what you initially said. Have you even decided what your position is?
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  44. No it's not. Sex is something people do. It's for what people use it for.
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  45.  @matt1325  "You might say I'm appealing to nature, but I'm definitely appealing to nature."
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  46.  @libby.i  The reason a zygote isn't a human isn't because it's too small.
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  47.  @zachman5150  Have you figured out what a "natural consequence" is yet? If so, do explain it.
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  48.  @zachman5150  I guess I'll just ask you again another month later...
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  49.  @zachman5150  Your response is vacuous.
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  50.  @zachman5150  Paragraph after paragraph of hysterical, outraged bluster and then you walk away because you were caught with your foot in your mouth. 🤡
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  51.  @travisjohnson7065  Yes it does.
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  52. I think you might have missed the point of this argument...
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  53. Because that's a blanket statement about something wildly variable. Those always end up being wrong at a certain point.
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  54. It ain't his body as much as the woman's. That's the point.
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  55.  @zachman5150  Do you call anything that's alive a "someone"?
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  56. But it wasn't our choice, and it really shouldn't have been
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  57.  @zachman5150  ok karen
    3
  58.  @escandon785  Scientists don't say abortion is murder. Sorry to have to tell you.
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  59. I don't think having a sound foster care system would make me any more okay with forced pregnancies.
    3
  60.  @vtaylor21  The organs do in fact reproduce, but "purpose" does not refer to what something does. It refers to why it's done. Conception is a common natural side-effect of sex, but it's no more its innate purpose than the transmission of diseases.
    3
  61.  @vtaylor21  "Conception is a common natural side-effect of sex, but it's no more its innate purpose than the transmission of diseases." Do you think this sentence states that conception IS the innate purpose of sex?
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  62.  @vtaylor21  Because a number of organs can produce pleasure. Calling them "pleasure organs" would not effectively differentiate them. "Reproductive organ" is a descriptive label. Not a prescription of purpose. People decided to call them "reproductive organs". So do people get to decide the purpose or not? Would its innate purpose change if we started calling them something else? You are arguing for an objective purpose of something by appealing to people's subjective labelling of it. This is not how objectivity works.
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  63.  @hello-sz7hp  It's also like asking "why can't I abort a pregnancy with them? That means it's okay to make me donate a kidney to them if they need one in their thirties." Is it? I don't think so. Do you? Why?
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  64.  @hello-sz7hp  So your new rule is "parents are responsible to their offspring - as long as nothing unusual happens."
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  65.  @hello-sz7hp  - but not when it's the result of something unusual.
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  66. It is. Whether it's alive or not doesn't decide the matter.
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  67.  @TheLegendOfRandy  You could appeal to a standard of personal responsibility to make the distinction. You could argue that women who've been raped are due an exemption because they had no consenting part in the conception of the child. Their predicament is not their own doing. There's nothing for them to have to accept responsibility for.
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  68. Whether or not someone anti-abortion makes an exception for rape gives you a better idea of where they are on the whole topic.
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  69.  @justapotato2434  That really was what you asked. If it's not what you meant to ask, you misspoke. Sex is something people engage in. It's for what people do it for.
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  70.  @shoazdon7000  Weak.
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  71. Nah...
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  72.  @Dbulkss  It's not though. Not all the sex people have is to procreate. Most of it actually isn't.
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  73. You're so hopeless at arguing for your side that your best bet is to pretend you can read minds and just say everyone already agrees with you. That's all you just told us here.
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  74.  @noiceb6170  Liar. "The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."
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  75. How are his race and gender relevant?
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  76. ​ @matt1325  Why? You said her life is of equal value to the fetus'.
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  77. They both are. Just being a life doesn't actually mean very much.
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  78. I actually don't have to. You made the claim. Not me. Burden of proof's on you. Step up.
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  79.  @legstitchedtigerftw2455  Most things are.
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  80.  @zachman5150  Do you know what a "natural consequence" is now?
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  81.  @zachman5150  Sound analogies are relevant, I'm afraid. Either repeat to me the part of your definition that rules out car crashes, or the analogy works.
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  82. It's their bodies being used. The final say is theirs.
    2
  83.  @matt1325  You have some cheapening of the term to do if you want to call a non-sentient single cell a child.
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  84.  @matt1325  It doesn't and I didn't say it did. Size is not the only characteristic that being a single cell decides.
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  85.  @zachman5150  To try to make women solely at fault is not a balanced counter-perspective. It's just irrational in the opposite direction.
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  86. There's no ''but". A clump of cells can be a life. It's still a clump of cells.
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  87.  @krasmasov6852  Nah that's way too loose. We are talking about killing something. There ought to be a bar for that higher than just a person wanting to.
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  88. How do you figure they're sexist against men?
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  89. It's not a personal belief for them, though. It's not that abortion just isn't to their personal tastes. They see it as a moral wrong that has victims and needs to be stopped.
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  90.  @mattlopez8391  It's not murder.
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  91.  @zachman5150  People aren't made to suffer consequences just for having risked them. That's not how it works in any other walk of society. Get real.
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  92.  @zachman5150  A woman having sex isn't a crime. I don't know what it really is with you, but it's really starting to sound like something pretty sad.
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  93. What do you even mean "the scientific conversation" about what it is? It pulls a fetus out of a uterus. What scientific details are we missing?
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  94.  @matt1325  It's a discussion. People have opinions. Some of them are men.
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  95.  @TheLegendOfRandy  "It depends on the circumstances" seriously doesn't make any sense to you? Because that's really pretty basic.
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  96. If you don't allow people abortions, you're basically making them human life support machines with no right to say no to it. I don't think we ought to be okay with that.
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  97.  @matt1325  That standard would qualify one of my eyelashes as a person.
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  98. Why would a woman have any greater say in what happens with other people's uteruses?
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  99.  @mariec3733  That's the point. You say you don't want anyone making those decisions but then you choose to single out men.
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  100. ​ @zachman5150  Have you figured out what a "natural consequence" is yet?
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  101.  @zachman5150  Have you figured out what a "natural consequence" is yet?
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  102.  @zachman5150  You haven't, have you?
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  103. ​ @zachman5150  Think. Like, actually think. Did I actually say any of that about myself? Do you actually know what it was I said? I don't know who you were actually arguing with when you wrote that, but it definitely wasn't me.
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  104.  @zachman5150  No, I didn't. I responded to a comment you explicitly directed at me. "Well, you're still here-- so apparently think yours is worth living and contributing here is evidence"
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  105. ​ @zachman5150  What something is said in response to actually does affect its meaning. What I said was in fact not in response to what you just said it was. The summary of the conversation you just gave was inaccurate.
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  106.  @zachman5150  You know you do agree with it, don't you?
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  107. Who says the main purpose of sex is to reproduce?
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  108. In your opinion. Not everyone shares it. You have kids and are glad of it. It doesn't mean everyone will be. It certainly doesn't mean they should be forced to.
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  109.  @lodoss118  That's actually the topic of the discussion. If you're in favour of denying abortion rights, you are in fact in favour of forced childbearing.
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  110. You're weird...
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  111. ​ @zachman5150  "Shoulda, woulda, coulda..."
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  112. ​ @zachman5150  Women considering abortions aren't looking back on the problem. Their problem is the matter at hand. Shouldas, wouldas, and couldas aren't too useful in dealing with those.
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  113. ​ @zachman5150  No method of birth control is 100% effective. They all fail. This is a simple matter of probability. Not of comparative levels of knowledge among people using them. This question you've been repeating word-for-word like a nervous tick doesn't do your case any favours. It's glib and obtuse in very obvious and simple ways.
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  114.  @zachman5150  The last response on this thread is one from me to you. "No method of birth control is 100% effective. They all fail. This is a simple matter of probability. Not of comparative levels of knowledge among people using them. This question you've been repeating word-for-word like a nervous tick doesn't do your case any favours. It's glib and obtuse in very obvious and simple ways." You have not responded to it.
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  115.  @zachman5150  No method of birth control is 100% effective. They all fail. This is a simple matter of probability. Not of comparative levels of knowledge among people using them.
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  116.  @zachman5150  Why would I do that? I've answered your question three times now and you're still repeating it at me. What exactly is supposed to be in it for me at this point? I think I'll just refer you back to one of my questions that you ran from when I first asked: Are you on the autism spectrum at all?
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  117. It's a few steps further. It's taking someone off life support where the life support machine is your own body.
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  118.  @mariec3733  Why would half the population be invisible...? 😂
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  119.  @b.queens9863  English isn't your first language, is it?
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  120.  @matt1325  I asked if people were obligated to diseases. Not if diseases were obligated to people. Are people obligated to serve the needs of disease-causing viruses they contract?
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  121.  @zachman5150  You've as yet failed to establish that the OP has any relevance. Until you do, I have nothing to refute. 😴
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  122.  @zachman5150  No relevance, then. Neat. You didn't have to spend all that effort pretending it was an argument for anything.
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  123. *Driving is to car accidents
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  124.  @zachman5150  By driving. The one and only action that causes car accidents.
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  125.  @cloroxistoxic2077  We're talking about cause and effect. Not fault. Those are different things. Abortion isn't a disciplinary measure against fetuses. You have obviously misunderstood the entire topic.
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  126.  @vtaylor21  Read what I wrote again. I think you missed something quite important.
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  127.  @vtaylor21  "Conception is a common natural side-effect of sex, but it's no more its innate purpose than the transmission of diseases." You think this statement means that conception IS the innate purpose of sex, do you?
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  128.  @vtaylor21  I said that procreation is NOT the innate purpose of sex. You've responded several times now as if I'd said the exact opposite of what I actually did.
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  129.  @vtaylor21  Once again: Purpose is not what something does. Purpose is what something is intended to do. People seeking to procreate intend sex to perform the function of procreating. People seeking to achieve pleasure from sex do not. Procreation and pleasure are both intended functions of sex. Neither is its objective primary function.
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  130.  @vtaylor21  "if purpose explains what something is intended to do, it is explaining what it does." This is in fact incorrect. What something does is separate from what it is intended to do. What biology cares about is irrelevant, because the reality is that biology doesn't care about anything. Biology is not a sentient entity. Raising points about what biology "cares" about is nonsensical. There is objective function. I believe this. The actual problem is that you are conflating objective function with purpose, meaning and intent which are all 𝘴𝘶𝘣𝘫𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘦 matters.
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  131.  @matt1325  Whether to be "surprised" that babies appear in wombs is actually not what's being discussed.
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  132. Why only for a period of time? Why doesn't it get access to your body indefinitely?
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  133.  @zachman5150  ... And? Who here do you think is arguing about legislation?
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  134. It depends on the circumstances, dude. Use your common sense...
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  135.  @rdslayer738  Are you trolling?
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  136.  @braynjohnson4302  Whether it's a life is irrelevant to the moral and ethical discussions surrounding abortion. There is no legal discussion to speak of. Abortion is in fact legal. That's that.
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  137. It doesn't, but I don't think pro-lifers view that as relevant.
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  138.  @travisjohnson7065  "... or just resort to baseless insults?" puts the tone a little on the adversarial side...
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  139. So?
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  140.  @matt1325  Whether a fetus is a human being absolutely is a fair question.
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  141.  @matt1325  You think it's obvious. That doesn't tell us anything about how true your preferred answer actually is. All that's a measure of is how sure you feel of it.
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  142.  @matt1325  That's called an appeal to popularity fallacy.
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  143.  @matt1325  That's called an appeal to popularity fallacy.
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  144. Nothing else in society works like that, dude. Think about what you're risking when you cross the road.
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  145. I think abortion is justifiable specifically because I value human life.
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  146. ​ @nathanieldavis511  Why not? What makes a human being's life more valuable than an animal's?
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  147.  @matt1325  None of those traits are present in an embryo.
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  148. ... and what do pregnant rape victims need to do?
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  149.  @noiceb6170  That's not what murder means.
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  150. Feel better?
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  151.  @zachman5150  You support forced pregnancy, is what you're saying.
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  152. What on Earth are on about...?
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  153. Yes they do.
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  154. What did Christ say about abortion?
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  155.  @zachman5150  What did Christ say about abortion? C'mon now...
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  156.  @earbunnyisgloomy9613  That's called an appeal to nature fallacy.
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  157.  @zachman5150  Who was in charge of you risking what went on in that delivery room?
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  158.  @zachman5150  You risked what happened in the delivery room happening. Ergo, you had a say in it.
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  159.  @zachman5150  That does nothing to counter the point that men have a choice in bringing about a pregnancy. The fact that they don't risk it happening to them doesn't mean they don't risk it happening.
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  160.  @hello-sz7hp  You're weird.
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  161.  @hello-sz7hp  You're weird.
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  162.  @zachman5150  "A natural X is the natural Y" doesn't work as an explanation. Definitions of words don't contain the words they're defining. That defeats the purpose.
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  163.  @zachman5150  So repeat to me the part of that that stops car crashes qualifying.
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  164. Is it more valuable, though?
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  165.  @matt1325  Which part of that was an ad hominem?
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  166. I think pro-lifers would say that it's pro-choicers forcing their beliefs on unborn kids.
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  167. When life starts isn't really relevant to this discussion. Nobody is blanketly against ending life.
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  168. 🤣
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  169.  @matt1325  You specifically raised the point of whether it's a child or not. I responded explicitly to a question you raised and you tell me you don't see the relevance...
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  170.  @matt1325  "You said nothings wrong with abortion because its not even a child if its 14 weeks old. Do you think at week 14 it becomes a person, or are you saying because its so young its not a person? Both seem equally as arbitrary." No you weren't.
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  171.  @justapotato2434  Probably at conception. But, it's literally the life of a fertilised cell. It's alive like a mushroom is alive. Not something I'm okay with turning a person into a childbearing slave for the sake of.
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  172. I noticed that of all these so-called "anti-abortion" people, not a single one of them is unborn...
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  173. Booze and smokes would be easier.
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  174.  JoggaStoppa™  So?
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  175. I agree in theory but there'd be pretty much no way to prove in court the circumstances of how a pregnancy came about.
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  176. Nah...
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  177. That doesn't address the pregnancy or labor, though.
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  178.  @stargazer1405  So?
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  179.  @stargazer1405  What do you eat?
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  180.  @zachman5150  Yes it is. Foreskins don't grow back.
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  181. It fails sometimes. The world ain't perfect.
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  182.  @ferbiously  It's not really. It's just the basic concept... Did you not know that?
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  183.  @ferbiously  Blah.
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  184.  @shawnboahene5231  No science considers anything a person. Personhood is a philosophical construct. Not a scientific one. Give it a minute before you make declarations about who's without a leg to stand on. You're a little confused to be doing that at the moment.
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  185. ok karen
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  186.  @TheGonzGirlz  I don't feel like explaining why your response did nothing to undo the point of the car analogy but it's literally not a strawman. That's not what that term means.
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  187.  @Haley_777.14  Viruses are a life. Should we not let people get rid of those from their bodies?
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  188.  @foragedfinery  They don't think that just because they don't like it. That's just you trivializing the discussion.
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  189.  @b.1162  Yes. Another person encroaching on my physical autonomy is bad. Their right to do this does not strengthen if we happen to be the same gender. This is an ill-conceived, blatantly sexist line of argumentation that needs to go in the bin.
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  190.  @matt1325  It occupies physical space, so it quite obviously is a substance, and it's part of me, a member of a rational kind. Part of a part of something is not functionally distinct from part of something.
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  191.  @ILovePink-x1v  Read my comment again. I don't think you quite got the point of it, m'dude.
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  192.  @mariec3733  So men have equal say to other women, basically...
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  193.  @mariec3733  Neat.
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  194. Is it worth it?
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  195.  @zachman5150  Not all life is my life.
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  196.  @zachman5150  Yes. Some lives are valuable. Others aren't. You'll find that you already agree with this, if you actually spend a preliminary amount of thought on it.
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  197.  @zachman5150  It's apparently not clear, since you just got it very simply wrong. You're consulting your soundboard now, so it's fair to say you've run out of things to actually say.
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  198.  @zachman5150  Some lives are less valuable than others. Are you denying that you agree with this?
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  199.  @zachman5150  So you're claiming to value the life of a mushroom equally to your own...
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  200.  @zachman5150  You never actually did that "preliminary amount of thought" thing I suggested, did you?
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  201.  @zachman5150  Life isn't all that's relevant to the topic. Your choice of words was naive.
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  202.  @zachman5150  Well, it does now, because in furtherance of the pro-life stance you've claimed to value all of life. I'm taking you at your own words, and you're trying to make it my fault that you didn't choose them very carefully. Unless you actually do value all of life, including mushrooms, equally, you can consider your point refuted.
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  203.  @zachman5150  Weak.
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  204. Do you think a woman ought to be able to have an abortion for any reason?
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  205.  @matt1325  How?
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  206.  @zachman5150  Why? How you juggling that?
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  207.  @zachman5150  But not always.
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  208.  @zachman5150  So there's still a chance. And according to your logic the mother knew what she was risking. Why does she get to bail out?
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  209. ​ @zachman5150  Yes, generally. Not always. Are you just saying you're okay with terminating infants if the odds are against them surviving?
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  210.  @zachman5150  ok karen
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  211. You're weird.
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  212.  @earbunnyisgloomy9613  I don't argue with weirdos.
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  213.  @earbunnyisgloomy9613  You're weird.
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  214. Both sides feel like the other is crossing a moral line. Stuff can get heated.
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  215.  @moneysittintall3611  Yes, it is semantics because that's the argument the OC started. Abortion is not murder, so stop saying it is. You aren't contributing anything to the discussion by just chucking incendiary language at it.
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  216.  @moneysittintall3611  What do you mean "back to"...? When did we get off it? You're here deriding us for having the argument you started. You're weird...
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  217.  @moneysittintall3611  What do you eat?
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  218.  @InsubordinatePatriot  Who cares?
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  219.  @InsubordinatePatriot  lol why
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  220. ​ @InsubordinatePatriot  Who cares?
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  221.  @InsubordinatePatriot  Who cares?
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  222.  @earbunnyisgloomy9613  You're weird.
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  223.  @earbunnyisgloomy9613  You're weird.
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  224.  @zachman5150  Running from my question-- Again-- are we?
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  225. That's not a question.
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  226.  @stainSqaud  It's still her body that the fetus is living inside is the point. If she wants it out, it's a violation of her rights to her body to stop her.
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  227.  @msharp6887  An egg is not alive in any meaningful way at the moment of fertilisation. This actually is objective. Life has criteria that an egg just plainly doesn't meet. If you want to talk objectivities, you are just plain-and-simple wrong.
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  228.  @msharp6887  Sorry, dude. Find yourself a scientific definition of "life". You will find yourself reading about a set of characteristics that a fertilised egg does not have. I actually don't mind the bit of smug nastiness at the end there because all it does is show that what I said has landed.
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  229.  @msharp6887  Have you found yourself that definition yet, speaking of a little research?
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  230.  @msharp6887  "democrat indoctrination..." Are you actually having this discussion or do you just have an axe to grind? In the interest of not wasting time, put your ego aside and actually revisit the point I made. A zygote is in no way meaningfully alive at the literal second of conception. A person is a thing that develops and takes time to. This is one of the many ways in which human beings are distinct from instant mashed potatoes. If you through sheer pedantics argue that it's technically alive then it's alive like a mushroom is alive. I don't know what you think you're contributing to a discussion about abortion by pointing that out.
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  231.  @msharp6887  "... meaningfully alive..." The fact that this is how pedantic you have to get to argue that it's even technically alive outs this as a useless point. "If you through sheer pedantics argue that it's technically alive then it's alive like a mushroom is alive. I don't know what you think you're contributing to a discussion about abortion by pointing that out." I just granted you that it was alive so that you can get off semantics and argue about the actual subject, but you haven't taken any notice. Are you sure you're reading through what I'm saying?
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  232.  @msharp6887  "Meaningful" as in relevant. That isn't subjective. It's a matter of logic.
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  233.  @msharp6887  So have I addressed neither point or have I agreed to one of them? "...and when do human rights apply to that life." Read back through the discussion. This is the first time you've mentioned this at all. The only objective approach you could take to this question would be a legal one, and the fact is that humans do not have any rights at the embryonic stage that assures against them being aborted. Whether an embryo has traits of a living human being sufficient to qualify it for ethical consideration is a worthwhile point that takes us into substantive discussion of the topic. Whether it qualifies for a purely technical definition of "life" that plants and fungi also do is not.
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  234.  @msharp6887  I don't think the law decides whether a person is a person, no. That's quite a confused thing to ask me after citing a LEGAL DEFINITION to argue that a zygote is. What the law does decide is what rights you have, because rights are a legal construct. An inalienable right is a nonsensical concept. If the society you're a part of does not afford you the right to something, then it's just not a right you have. It may be one you think you ought to have, and in most decent societies you'd be free to argue that you should, but the fact is that at present you don't. There's no getting away from this unless what you're talking about are moral rather than legal rights, which aren't so easy to argue objectively about.
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  235.  @msharp6887  Yes it does. A right is an entitlement that society acknowledges and that law enforces. If the society you live as a part of does not acknowledge your right to something, how does it manifest beyond you just saying you have it?
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  236.  @msharp6887  Rights aren't innate. They don't occur naturally. You don't have rights without the community affording them to you. Societies can in fact take them away. The fact that you just tried to argue against this by appealing to a broader society gets me thinking you know that this is true.
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  237.  @msharp6887  So in what way does a person have a right to something if their society doesn't acknowledge that they do?
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  238. ​ @msharp6887  Even though you've been denied it by every authoritative body with any power over you? What would alienating a right look like if that doesn't cut it?
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  239.  @msharp6887  Oppressed people fight oppression because nobody wants to be oppressed. What to do with rights is that?
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  240.  @msharp6887  They're fighting for rights... Because they don't have them. People don't fight for something if they already have it.
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  241.  @msharp6887  Nobody wants to be oppressed. But a want isn't a right.
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  242.  @msharp6887  Yes, it is. Oppression is by definition unjust or cruel. A key feature of it is that it's unwanted. People fight things they think are unjust. That's not a matter of the rights they have.
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  243. Why?
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  244.  @b.queens9863  Why should pregnancy and giving birth be the consequence of sex?
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  245.  @b.queens9863  I don't particularly want there to be consequences for having sex. I don't think having sex is wrong.
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  246. ​ @b.queens9863  They do. Needing an abortion.
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  247.  @abby3750  A person being pro-choice doesn't mean they'd be for an abortion in any given case of pregnancy. "Pro-abortion" implies that what they think is that women should have abortions, and they don't. They just want the choice to be there. People generally don't like it because it just doesn't really make sense as a way of describing their opinion.
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  248.  @matt1325  What obligates "fixing" it is where the disagreement lies.
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  249.  @matt1325  Are people obligated to diseases if they risk contracting them?
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  250. ​ @matt1325  I asked if people were obligated to diseases. Not if diseases were obligated to people. Are people obligated to serve the needs of disease-causing viruses they contract?
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  251.  @matt1325  That assumes people aren't obligated to serve the needs of disease-causing viruses they contract which is the exact thing your trying to prove.
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  252.  @matt1325  "People aren't obligated to diseases because no."
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  253.  @JoeyB0b  Where have the generalizations about vegans come from now...?
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  254.  @JoeyB0b  That is not a sound generalization.
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  255.  @JoeyB0b  No it's not.
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  256.  @JoeyB0b  No, it's not.
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  257. Which part of that are you calling cognitive dissonance?
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  258.  @masteroftheunseen7941  Whether it's alive is a different question from whether it's a "someone", though.
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  259.  @zachman5150  Yeah, it's actually really obvious, isn't it?
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  260.  @TheLegendOfRandy  The inclusion of "legally" is what fucks that argument.
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  261. No there isn't only one question that matters. This is not a simple issue. Stop trying to pass it off as one.
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  262.  @rigobatiancila5824  Why have you brought up rape? I didn't mention it, and it has nothing to do with anything you mentioned either. Whether a fetus is a human or not is not the only issue, if it's even an issue at all. This is what I said. Where in this did you hear the word, "rape"...?
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  263.  @rigobatiancila5824  Whether or not it being alive gives it the right to live in someone else's body? In what other circumstances would you be okay with that? This is what you should have started by asking me. Not by responding to something I didn't say just because you'd heard other people say it.
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  264.  @rigobatiancila5824  You either want to discuss the topic or you don't, dude. Saying there's no point in arguing because we have different opinions defeats any purpose of you saying anything to begin with.
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  265. I don't agree that they're not living and I'm not pro-life, so that's not true. There are a few more ways to approach this than seem to have occurred to you.
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  266.  @TheLegendOfRandy  How is that an appeal to nature fallacy?
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  267.  @escandon785  So?
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  268.  @escandon785  From conception doesn't either.
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  269.  Anix Encore  It's not.
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  270.  Anix Encore  It's not.
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  271.  Anix Encore  It's not.
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  272.  @JohnSmith-px1fm  I don't see how that isn't a non-sequitur.
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  273.  @JohnSmith-px1fm  It wasn't me who brought up scientists, so I don't know why you're directing this at me.
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  274.  @JohnSmith-px1fm  Yes...
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  275.  @JohnSmith-px1fm  Read what the quote is in response to.
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  276.  @JohnSmith-px1fm  Read what the quote is in response to.
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  277.  @JohnSmith-px1fm  You have just quoted something I said. I am telling you to read what I said it in response to.
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  278. ... "Wtf" what?
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  279.  @joongreenbriar6049  He's not a colonizer, though. He's native.
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  280.  @joongreenbriar6049  Why can't he use it, though?
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  281.  @joongreenbriar6049  There are literally natives who prefer to be called redskins... The language a person uses to describe their heritage is their business.
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  282.  @cloroxistoxic2077  You wouldn't have had a car accident if you hadn't driven...
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  283.  @zachman5150  - by driving.
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  284. They fail sometimes. The world ain't perfect.
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  285. You're weird.
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  286. What would you call it? It most likely didn't have a gender.
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  287.  @churchroadrecordsreviewsan231  Yeah, we're all made of cells. Not all of us are literally single cells... A single cell ain't a baby.
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  288.  @candyadams-frazier1759  Women do know that pregnancy is a possible result from sex. If it arises, many will have to undergo an abortion. That is accountability.
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  289.  @matt1325  That's an Appeal to Nature Fallacy.
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  290.  @matt1325  I know that's what you said, and it's a non-sequitur because how surprised we ought to be by it is not what's under discussion, and it's completely irrelevant to what actually is.
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  291.  @matt1325  We're discussing the ethics surrounding overriding a person's bodily autonomy. If your rationale for why forced pregnancy is ethical while forced organ donation isn't is that pregnancy is a "natural" or "ordinary" use of another person's body, you are in fact committing an Appeal to Nature Fallacy.
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  292.  @matt1325  "Naturally", "meant to", "designed to", are all just different choices of words that get you back to the same fallacy. You aren't making a point just by repeating that they're different. Actually say how and make an argument for it. If you were saying pregnancy is different from organ donation in that pregnancy is natural and therefore ethical to force on people, you were committing a fallacy. You've essentially left yourself a choice of having committed a fallacy or just having said something irrelevant...
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  293.  @matt1325  Yes, I'm focusing on one argument you made so that you can't get out of admitting it doesn't work by moving to a different one. Whether a pregnancy is extraordinary or not has no place in a discussion about abortion because an appeal to the ordinary is essentially the same fallacy, while it not being "heroic" is a non-sequitur because that's purely a matter of perspective. For you to flatly declare that childbearing is not heroic as if expecting no challenge to it honestly leads me to wonder if you can have ever witnessed it. Pregnancy is quite a physically taxing thing. There absolutely are people who view it as heroic.
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  294.  @matt1325  Yes, you've made it clear that that is not your position. I don't seem to have managed to persuade you to share what IS your position. The furthest into detail you've gone is "organ donation is extraordinary and heroic", and I don't see that that amounts to a point.
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  295.  @matt1325  I want to know what position you hold that "organ donation is extraordinary and heroic" is a point in favour of. I'd like you to take what you're saying, and connect it to an actual position. Why is this so complicated?
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  296.  @zachman5150  Out of honest curiosity; are you on the autism spectrum at all?
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  297.  @TheLegendOfRandy  Why doesn't that bother you, though?
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  298.  @TheLegendOfRandy  Not even if you have something in your body that someone else will die without?
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  299.  @TheLegendOfRandy  I haven't donated any blood or organs. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite. Who knows? Would you donate one drop of blood if it could cure cancer, though? And would you say a person whose blood could do that ought to be obligated to?
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  300.  @matt1325  Virgins only and that 1-5 is too high a body count is what the comment you just agreed with said.
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  301.  @allegravet  Ending a life? Sometimes it's voluntary euthanasia. Sometimes it's having a meal. Sometimes it's picking fruit. Sometimes it's taking an antibiotic. Look I understand why this sits uncomfortabley with people but I wish you could hear how screamingly silly you sound when you try to argue this by stripping things of anything that even looks like context... There are nigh endless factors that affect the ethical implications of ending a life. In this case, we're talking about whether to let a person live by using someone else's body; and no, we don't let people in any other stage of development do this.
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  302.  @Chefshitpiece  I didn't though.
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  303.  @CandyWorld30  That was more a literary use of the word, "parasite". She was quite clearly not arguing that a fetus is a separate species. "Parasite" has uses other than scientific. The fetus we're discussing is living off another person's body against their consent. That's the key characteristic. You have devolved the conversation into something quite obtuse and pedantic with that...
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  304. Whether it's a life or not doesn't really matter much.
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  305.  @braynjohnson4302  You dodged his question again. You aren't fooling anyone. Does intelligence matter or not? Is human intelligence the basis for your entire argument, or is intelligence not so easily measured? It's quite important for your argument that you make up your mind about that.
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  306. You're weird.
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  307.  @travisjohnson7065  Not really what "baseless" means...
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  308.  @travisjohnson7065  Yes. To in fact have no *basis. Not to have not had its basis presented.
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  309. Blueberries?
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  310. A person could be pro-choice and still anti-abortion themselves. There's whether you'd do it personally and there's whether you think other people should be allowed to decide for themselves.
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  311.  @perlaxo9885  Well the logical end of that is more like mass infanticide than just abortion rights.
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  312.  @n.n.5286  Is it a human being, though?
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  313.  @n.n.5286  No, whether it's a human being or not definitely is a question.
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  314.  @n.n.5286  It's a single cell, to begin with. Human beings are not single celled organisms.
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  315.  @n.n.5286  So early that it doesn't even have more than one cell. Why would we call that a human being? It's less complex than a patch of moss.
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  316.  @n.n.5286  Yes it does. Human beings are complex.
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  317.  @n.n.5286  A cell.
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  318.  @n.n.5286  No they aren't. You and I are more than one cell.
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  319.  @n.n.5286  One of your teeth is homo sapien cells. That doesn't make it a human being by itself. An embryo may well be a zygote. A fetus though, sure. In the womb a fetus at some point becomes a human being. I don't necessarily think that ends the discussion.
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  320.  @n.n.5286  It is human (adjective). A piece of my hair is human (adjective). Neither is a human (noun).
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  321.  @n.n.5286  Yes, will form into. As they are, they aren't.
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  322.  @travisjohnson7065  Eukaryotic cells are alive, yes. That's not a debate. What is a debate (for some reason) is whether this has any bearing on the topic of the ethics surrounding abortion. It's common sense that it doesn't.
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  323.  @S6xT2  🫤
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  324. I don't have a uterus, but I do in fact have an opinion. I'm not exactly sure who you think should stop me or how...
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  325.  @zachman5150  "trolling like a bunch of trolls" is quite a fatuous and unimaginative simile, don't you think?
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  326.  @zachman5150  You are a participant in the debate, so naturally, you don't get to judge the winner of the debate. Your thoughts on my intellectual character are irrelevant.
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  327. It can be if you think that personhood is the factor that decides it, which not everyone does.
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  328.  @matt1325  Personhood hasn't been mentioned at all, so I don't know why you've pivoted to it.
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  329.  @matt1325  And what makes you think I'm speaking philosophically? "Whether it's a human being is questionable" is literally all I've said. What about that gives you enough evidence to tell me that what I mean is not what I'm saying and presume to explain my own thoughts to me?
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  330.  @matt1325  A zygote is human (adjective). A strand of my hair is human (adjective). Neither a zygote nor a strand of my hair is a human (noun). This is the distinction in terms that you have failed to follow.
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  331.  @matt1325  On what?
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  332.  @matt1325  I just gave you the terms and the distinction.
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  333.  @matt1325  "it is member of the human species just as much as sperm or zygote, it isn't." "Are you trying to argue the fetus isn't human?" You fallaciously equivocated "human" (adjective) with "a human" (noun).
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  334.  @matt1325  "They aren't humans." That's what she said, and I see no evidence that it's not what she meant. I don't think she meant "they aren't human", and I base that on the fact that she has at no point said it.
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  335. I wonder if an abortion should be something courts have to allow after considering an individual's circumstances.
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  336.  @eveliinahannele  Why?
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  337.  @eveliinahannele  It's the courts that decide whether they are human rights...
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  338.  @eveliinahannele  An international court, yes. I'm asking about whether that was the right decision. It's not obvious to me that it was.
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  339.  @eveliinahannele  Yes. There are international courts, and they decide what is and isn't recognized internationally as a human right. You keep saying "internationally recognized". Think. Who has actually done the recognizing?
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  340.  @eveliinahannele  They instated them to begin with. They can make changes to them. Things have been declared human rights that weren't when the original declaration was made. There is nothing in particular stopping international courts making changes to it.
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  341.  @eveliinahannele  Yes that's actually exactly how the process works. Rights are a legal construct. Legal matters are deliberated on by courts. International law is deliberated on by the UN court. The International Court of Justice. Look it up.
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  342.  @nathanieldavis511  No. Have you seen an embryo do either of those?
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  343. ​ @nathanieldavis511  So what is it that decides whether one life is more valuable than another?
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  344.  @zachman5150  That's all a little redundant after being impregnated as the result of assault, isn't it?
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  345. It's literally just not.
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  346.  @noiceb6170  Once again: Not what murder means. 😑 Open a dictionary.
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  347.  @noiceb6170  That abortion is NOT murder. Read what the dictionary says.
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  348. Well no person ever stops being a clump of cells. We're made of cells. The question is what do you mean by "just" a clump of cells?
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  349.  @graygraygray4454  u.
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  350.  @mariec3733  It's not women's actions that lead to pregnancy, eh?
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  351.  @mariec3733  What planet are you on?
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  352. You might be talking about a single cell, dude. You're really stretching to call that a child. Yes it's alive but so is an onion. Life isn't all that matters, and it really doesn't matter that much by itself.
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  353.  @me18122  Yes. Zygotes are much less complex than vegetables. There is nothing in them. They think and feel nothing. They're a cell.
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  354.  @me18122  No, plants can't think, but you aren't saying we should treat them like humans. Fertilised eggs can't think either, but you ARE saying we should treat them like humans. See your problem?
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  355.  @me18122  A sperm can grow into a human. Do we have to let all of them too?
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  356.  @me18122  So you're answer is, "yes, every sperm should fertilise an egg." Are you sure you're happy with that?
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  357. Yeah that really is the one that separates the still some-kind-of-reasonable ones from the ones who've just become complete ideologues.
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  358. That's not the topic of the discussion.
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  359. An unborn fetus can be or not be a baby. I don't think there's a hard line to be drawn, but a zygote is very obviously not a baby.
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  360.  @raynamarie942  A zygote is a living being. A blade of grass is a living being. Who cares?
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  361.  @zachman5150  Zygotes don't either unless they're facilitated to.
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  362.  @zachman5150  What you just said isn't necessarily true. There are conditions.
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  363.  @zachman5150  Are you aware of any where an aborted zygote did?
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  364. No it doesn't. Plenty of pro-choice people believe a fetus is alive. Life is not what it boils down to.
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  365.  @Jruderstam  That still doesn't encapsulate it. There are pro-choicers who'd accept that, too. Value of a fetus' life isn't the only thing to argue about here.
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  366.  @Addison.Renfroe  But, once again: One that has nothing that makes a human life valuable.
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  367.  @Addison.Renfroe  Yes.
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  368.  @Addison.Renfroe  Yes, it does. In no sensible circle is this debatable.
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  369.  @Addison.Renfroe  Sentience. Something with no neurological faculties is not sentient. This is objective.
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  370. ​ @Addison.Renfroe  Sentience is a prerequisite for being a moral consideration.
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  371.  @Addison.Renfroe  Sentience. Sentient beings are a moral consideration. Non-sentient beings and objects are not. You've now been given the answer for the third time.
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  372. Moral of the Story: Force your religious values on people.
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  373.  @TheLegendOfRandy  What on Earth are you on about?
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  374. That's just a matter of the stage in development. At labour's edge the thing definitely is a baby. There's pretty much no meaningful way in which an egg is alive only days after fertilising, though.
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  375.  @earbunnyisgloomy9613  Saying something is morally acceptable because it's natural is always a fallacy, dude.
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  376.  @zachman5150  Um... I didn't say you risked getting yourself pregnant... Where on Earth did that come from? 😕
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  377.  @zachman5150  No, they can't "force a woman to accept them choosing to not wear a condom." What they can do is choose not to wear a condom.
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  378.  @matt1325  No.
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  379. "Deserve" isn't a part of this. No one is arguing for abortion to punish fetuses.
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  380. Shouldas, Wouldas and Couldas are very rarely a solution to anything.
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