Comments by "David Himmelsbach" (@davidhimmelsbach557) on "Who to Blame? John Frost on Operation Market Garden's Failure WW2" video.

@King The TERRAIN between Germany and the heights was the ONLY terrain that could support half-tracks and panzers without bogging the machines down. This was proven to all concerned when they threw StgIIIs into the fight. Most of the other routes were widely deemed to be impassible for panzers. Further, Germany proper is where the Dutch underground couldn't provide any observers. It was a blind spot. It's a pretty good bet that Bletchley Park// Engima intercepts were the ultimate source of the crazy panzer estimates. And obviously EVERY Allied general is going to lie until the day they died about said intercepts. Bletchley had a killer reputation -- many of its prior 'predictions' had been totally off the wall -- yet they panned out. Generals that dismissed them were, themselves, dismissed. The idea of 1,000 panzers would've come from Hitler raving to his western commanders that they were on the way. No doubt that Hitler was referring to the priority he was already giving to the future Ardennes offensive. Yes, he really DID intend to send 5th & 6th Panzer armies 1,000 panzers. Based on the latest German production tempos, the Allies figured that Monty's threat to the Ruhr would surely cause EVERY German panzer to be vectored against MG. And the key factories were just two-hours drive to the east. German panzer production peaked in August of 44. The Allies had no way of knowing that the tempo had turned down. It had been up every prior month through the war. By late 44 Nazi Germany was producing just about 1,000 panzers a month -- all types combined. ( That was the grand Allied assumption ) But the real threat was from half-tracks. They are MUCH more deadly to parachute troops. The main gun of a panzer is useless against paras in open country// farmland// Holland. The killing weapon is the machine gun. And half-tracks have at least one machine gun -- plus whatever the crew is packing. By late 44 that would've been a couple of MG42s plus bolt action rifles plus grenades. Yiikes!
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@ DParry You've missed your reading assignment. 1) Grabner had crossed to the southern side of the Arnhem bridge BEFORE Frost even closed up to the northern approach. As a direct consequence, the battle was already LOST. Arnhem bridge was NEVER captured... and barely interdicted. MG can't work with Arnhem bridge in SS hands. 2) Both bridges were built with explosive charges -- hidden inside -- no-one could possibly see them -- nor remove them -- with detonation cables that ran off to their south sides. This was a COMMON feature of Big Bridges in that era. The Germans wired their Rhine bridges the exact same way. That's why the bridge at Remagen was such a shocker. It had been built strictly as a railroad bridge to support the Kaiser's armies during WWI. It was constructed in such a rush that no thought was given to building in explosive charges. At that moment (1916) the Kaiser's armies were heading west, so there was no way that a French army was seen as a risk. 3) A DUTCHMAN severed the detonation circuit at Nijmegen bridge. Stories you hear from Brits or Americans must be laughed at. They are either totally made up ( most likely ) or are things that came in their sleep. The detonation circuit and the explosives were a Dutch national defense secret. Everything about them was highly classified. The detonation cables were encased in concrete -- the usual habit for key electrical circuits even now -- and led off to bunkers right close to the bridges. The Nijmegen bunker was built into the telephone and post office complex. ( one building with a divider ) The Dutchman who cut those critical cables did so while the Americans were still floating down from the sky. I'd bet your life that he was an out-of-uniform Dutch soldier ( officer ?) who knew the lay of the land, instantly. I figure he'd have a high profile but for the fact that his kin lived on the wrong side of the lower Rhine. The SS would whack his extended family if they knew what he'd done. After the war, no-one cared, no-one believed. And to let his story out would embarrass both Britain and America, as both nations had soldiers taking credit for saving the bridge. &&& So, to keep it IDIOT simple for you: MG was DEAD, dead, dead, the second Grabner got onto the island with his recon boys. They not only screwed up Browning's and Gavin's assumptions -- they RUINED any chance for 1st Airborne to complete its mission. If 1st Airborne fails, then the whole enterprise fails. The Poles, XXX Corps, 101st Airborne, even the 82nd Airborne -- they are all irrelevant. Monty needed EVERY bridge -- and Arnhem was NEVER TAKEN. The northern approach does NOT equal taking the Arnhem bridge. Grabner & Company HAVE to be driven away from the southern end of Arnhem bridge before he drops it into the river. Lastly, the RAF never took out the German controlled ferry that was shifting additional panzers, half-tracks and whatnot onto the island straight through the battle -- every night. This means that even if Grabner didn't get there first, some other SS formation would've crossed over on the ferry and blown the 1st Airborne off of Arnhem bridge. There is absolutely NO COVER for the paras on the south side of that bridge. They'd be standing there with their peckers in their hands, for heaven's sakes. XXX Corps would be days too late. Browning's scheme was HOPELESS -- deal with it.
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@Matt MG died with the drop zone selection. The loss of the southern end of the Arnhem bridge doomed MG. From that location, the SS could blow the bridge sky high at ANY TIME. Both bridges were built with integral explosive charges - pre-wired with detonation cables -- as from Day One the Dutch expected to be invaded by Nazi Germany. Both bridges ran the detonation circuits to the far side -- in the case of Arnhem that was the south side... the end that the SS controlled... the end that was never in British hands -- because Urquhart's request to land near the bridge was turned down FLAT. Ditto for Gavin's request to land near the north side of Nijmegen bridge. The failure to land paras on the island sealed the doom for MG. John Burns, et, al. are dreaming. Monty can't prevail if the Arnhem bridge is in the river. To re-emphasize -- the Arnhem bridge was pre-wired to be blown up by the Dutch. All that the SS had to do was double check the installation and then slam the plunger.
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@Ben But they DIDN'T Hidden from public view, the US DoD covered for the RN right across the board. The USN ever replaced the RN in the North Atlantic --as a hole opened up when the RN sailed off to the Falklands. The RN was firing American Sidewinders to defend the fleet. The RN was running on fuel oil trans-shipped by the USN. When it was all over, the Argentinians commented that if they had EVER known that the RN was going to back stopped by the USN they never would've invaded in the first place.
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@Ike I blame the Nazis, myself. They were always screwing up Allied planning.
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@thunder John is a jingoist of the First Water. No amount of evidence is going to sway him. As for DP... 'tis to laugh. Pray he's trolling. The Americans suffered MORE fatalities than the British during MG. Both outfits attained universal respect from all armies, then and later. Once Browning over-ruled Urquhart and Gavin -- MG was SUNK. No Brit can explain why 1st Airborne wasn't dropped right on the island -- per Urquhart's request. There was NO FLAK on the island. There were no Germans on the island. ( tiny bridge details don't count ) The island sat between both KEY objectives. Jeeps, gliders, and all the rest were unnecessary. A foot-race to the bridges would've won the day. A couple of flame throwers wouldn't be amiss, either.
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@John Burns You live in an alternate reality. Bradley and Patton HATED MG and the single thrust idea -- not least because it meant that they had to sit on their hands. Where do you come up with this stuff?
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@John Burns WRONG. Antwerp was captured by the 11th Armored, IIRC. Its commander bitterly recounted that if he had only known, he could've rolled unopposed all the way up the Scheldt. Yes, there were no Germans there at all. The 15th Army was still off to the west. It had to walk out of its trap. Letting the 15th Army escape to interfere with MG was an EPIC Monty boner. Ike was furious when he finally doped out just where Monty's priorities were. BTW, the sole and only reason that Antwerp was captured intact was do to SOE scheming. This was so secret that the 11th Armored was clueless as to what had transpired. Further, the Belgians could NOT get the British motivated -- to get off their duffs and roll on towards the sea. Instead, the boys just partied. They figured that capturing the port was such a miracle, such a success, that the war was virtually over... and it's high time for fun and celebration. That party went on for days.
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@jsfbr MG was lost the INSTANT Grabner got across the Arnhem bridge. The Nijmegen bridge became irrelevant at that point. NOTHING could stop the SS from dropping the Arnhem bridge into the Rhine after Grabner got onto the island. TIK, and the other Brits, are engaged in a fantasy. They ALL operate from the view that Frost was in command of the Arnhem bridge. But, he never was. He was totally thwarted by the pill box -- and then -- later -- by the SS sitting on the south end of Arnhem bridge. What everyone has skipped past is that both bridges were wired -- from day one -- the day they were built -- to be exploded down into the rivers. This was a COMMON feature for major European bridges of the period. EVERYONE did it. It was NOT a common feature of American or British bridges. Neither nation figured on losing control of their bridges to invaders. The Germans and Dutch were obsessed with such a consideration. The detonation cables led off to bunkers on the SOUTH side of both bridges, as the Dutch figured the Germans to be the primary Threat from the very first. (History, heh) They did not figure on the Belgians or French being remotely as threatening. There NEVER was a need for the Germans to bring in explosives, cables or anything else. All that they had to do was break into the detonation bunker, and hook up a plunger. MG was RUINED as a plan the moment Browning didn't put paras on the island from the VERY FIRST. If Grabner had never crossed Arnhem bridge, Gavin's tempo would be irrelevant. BTW, the local Dutch had already sabotaged the Nijmegen detonation cables. That's why the bridge stayed put. Neither the British nor the Americans had anything to do with it. BOTH have taken credit, though. Lastly, the explosives that count CAN'T even be seen from the outside. You can't even touch them. They are inside an armored assembly. This was standard engineering practice at the time.
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@Donald Hill Of course he was. At the end of the day, Gavin gets his second start, Browning disappears from WWII history. During Varsity, everything Browning did wrong is reversed. Gavin goes on to glory. That's some screw-up there. Heh.
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@R Greenup George Marshall PROHIBITED Ike from being involved in tactical details. This is usually NEWS to most historians. A LOT of the critical orders were never put down on paper -- like the most important ones.
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V2 attacks against London did stop after Market Garden. Suddenly, Antwerp became the new victim... ultimately taking more hits than London. The Allies didn't realize that the V2s were constrained to work just off of rail lines. The liquid oxygen was centrally produced and just wouldn't last if carted very far. All of the rest was rail mounted, too. By this time Germany only had enough gasoline to power the rocket trucks but a few miles at a time. (!) If the RAF// USAAF had merely flown down the rail lines -- especially at night -- they would've found V2 crews with every flight.
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@Thunder Folks tend to forget: absolutely no panzer would EVER advance into the kill zone of a flame thrower. It may be a close range weapon, but it's an ABSOLUTE panzer stopper. Even today's M1A2 would run away from a flame thrower. Such a weapon simply hoses down the target. It just doesn't miss. Napalm was used on panzers in Normandy. My own Father was an eye witness. The effect was so horrifying that it demoralized even the British. [ My Father had the most unique task in Normandy. He flitted between American and British lines in the normal course of business -- toting landing Marston landing mats to RAF bases -- per Churchill's panic request. Since the British engineers didn't know how to set them up, my Father's company not only trucked them over, they set them up. It was not long before the British were cross-trained and did not need further American assistance. But still, he had to keep trucking ever more landing mats for the RAF. This is something to keep in mind with regard to the Luftwaffe and Barbarossa. They, like the RAF, must have been taking a beating from dusty landing strips in hot weather. You'd just cry if you knew how many Spits the RAF lost until the American landing mats showed up. It was while in the British sector ( 21st Army Group ) he witnessed Napalm strikes on panzers. Oh, ... the SMELL. That lingered on until you drove away. Roasted men => you toss your cookies.
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@Mathew WHERE did you come up with this brain fart? The British loved gliders precisely because they could be flown to a virtually pin point landing. After action photos show that very few gliders ever went astray. They cracked-up, but they weren't astray. Most were in such good shape they could've been reused - but for the tender mercies of the Germans - who were very much into bonfires. The utter absence of German ground troops meant that no parachutist failed to simply march on to where he was supposed to be. This was totally unlike D-Day, where every guy was lost in the dark and Krauts were just about everywhere. Your thesis lies bleeding -- no it's dead.
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@Raging His original drop zones were screwy. He didn't listen to either Urquhart or Gavin -- or anyone else. Every para was bitching about them. Most don't realize that the zone between the two main bridges was an ISLAND. It's part of the river delta of the Rhine. It's bounded on two-sides by the Rhine and the Waal -- and the third is the English Channel. There were NO GERMANS there, no FLAK, no nothing. So Browning doesn't land anyone there. What a brain-wave. Instead, he lands the 101st right on the doorstep of XXX Corps. And he holds back the Polish brigade. It should've been given the deeper targets of 101st Airborne. The British glider troops of 1st Airborne should've been left in Britain. They just couldn't land on the soft, soft, soft terrain of Holland. It was THIS deficiency that caused Browning to totally warp his drop zones. Frost could've -- should've dropped on the island -- south of Arnhem bridge. Glider toops were WORTHLESS. Which is exactly what they proved to be during the greater battle. They couldn't even get close to the bridge. Even if the SS were not there, SOMEBODY would've guarded this critical route. Even a few machine gun nests would've totally stalled 1st Airborne... which... in fact... they did. Tanks didn't stop British Airborne, machine guns did.
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@Donald Hill You've found the acorn. Keep in mind that Gavin received his second star promptly after MG. He HAD done exactly as ordered: save Browning at any cost. Browning in SS hands would be a tortured LtG - a man who knew too much about ALL Allied airborne operations. If MG had been a success, Browning would certainly be given his fourth star -- and a life peerage -- like the other British greats. He was a PREMIER general in the eyes of all of his peers. How many guys can EVER claim to have founded a essential arm of the Service? That only happens about three times in a millennia. Gavin's personal bravery is beyond question. In this event, he's wiping clean the stain that Browning put on his own record. He should absolutely NOT have landed with his troops. He was far too valuable.
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Second STAR
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@Peorhum Monty was actually dis-obeying Ike's orders. The need to clear the Scheldt was previously discussed// ordered. Ike blew his stack when he found that Monty hadn't spent four seconds on the matter. Ike had to RE order Monty to clear it. He didn't like being taken to the woodshed, so he put the Canadians on the job. It should've been cleared, with virtually no casualties, by 11th Armored, British 2nd Army, days and days, earlier. Upon the capture of Antwerp, 11th Armored simply PARTIED like it was 1999. This super-party has now been white-washed from most military histories -- certainly all official ones. The only reason we know that the 11th had a Big Party is by way of personal accounts from the partiers in that tank division. They all thought the war was over. So did the Germans, too. See the opening sequence in the film "A Bridge Too Far."
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Frost's boss Urquhart DID object. As did Gavin. Both were turned down FLAT by Browning. He kept extolling "Monty's Plan." Whereas it was, in truth, Browning's Plan. Away from prying American eyes, Monty chewed Browning out -- after the operation. Then Browning was "disappeared" from the flow of WWII events.
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BTW, for those who care: British experts revisited MG and its defective radios. It turns out that even under IDEAL conditions ( Salisbury plain ) the British radios could only ever transmit and receive ~ 2 to 3 miles. Yes, that's in perfect weather and without any buildings or hills in the way. They were simply not long range sets. The "wrong crystals" bit in the film is totally incorrect. The guys planning this op at the top had no idea that their radio sets had such limited range, for when they were training back in England, everything seemed fine. The gear had simply never been vetted// tested for MG. You know what's said about assumptions.
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Which only makes the relevant officers look WORSE. My salient point is that at a time radios needed line power or huge batteries, ( tubes just suck down the juice ) truly portable sets were NEVER going to have the range we think of today. Your citation indicates that British Airborne didn't even have what anyone would regard as a portable field set. It was stuck to a wehicle chassis -- like a Motorola radio in a Model A. That's damning. Even more damning is that Browning didn't have any Plan B should radio comm go sideways. Paras without communications -- figure to be dead meat. Yiikes.
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@John You've nailed it. I find it passing strange that jeeps weren't employed by the thousand so that XXX Corps would no longer be road bound. A few jeeps were landed with the 101st and 82nd. They went everywhere. Why, why, why didn't the 101st drop in between the two critical bridges. The location is an ISLAND. There was no FLAK to deal with. Indeed, there were no Germans on the island. To reach the island, the Germans would have to use the pitifully few ferries -- or parachute in themselves. ( Fat chance ) The drop zones were selected by someone who was high or drunk. Good grief.
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Gavin would've been crucified if Browning was lost. His account basically was designed to cover for Browning. Similarly, Browning's comments ( and scapegoat ) existed to cover for Monty. The TRUE reason for MG was Churchill's insistence that the Nazi V1 and V2 launch sites be captured -- yesterday. If you look at the projected capture zone its is EXACTLY the location of SS rocket launches. THIS ^^^ is the reason that Monty told all that 95% (IIRC) of their objectives had been achieved. Churchill is the reason why Ike agreed to Monty's great plan -- without running by his staff. In normal times, Ike ALWAYS ran big plans past Tedder, his right-hand man. MG got going far too far for Tedder to stop it. MOST of the blame has to go to Monty because he didn't do what he normally did. He 'unloaded' a shocking amount of the planning onto Browning. Which was a MAJOR gaff, as few commanders ever were as versed at a set-piece battle as Monty. That was his greatest strength. It's why he was an Army Group commander. The drop zones were ALL SCREWED UP. The 101st didn't need to even attempt to save the Son crossing. That task should've been 100% for XXX Corps... from the first. Then the 101 should've been dropped right between the two critical bridges. There was no FLAK there. XXX Corps should've been given hundreds of jeeps so that mounted infantry could have shot cross country. These are the kinds of things that Monty was famous for getting right. I have to blame Monty for basically being AWOL for this battle. I think he had Victory Disease.
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@TIK The SS were ALREADY in a set defense when the 82nd made their move. They couldn't even get up to the bridge ramp. The SS had already occupied the southern approach. It was THIS position that both the 82nd and Irish Guards found to be a total bitch. Every account I've read credits the SS with four 88s. They moved into positions that Gabner had already established. The 82nd did not meet the SS in a "meeting engagement" which is what you seem to imply. Instead, Grabner had had his men occupy the buildings surrounding the southern approach -- very much in the style of Frost's paras. THAT'S why clearing them took tanks and many hours to clear. The CRAZY idea that the Irish Guards defeated the SS on their own -- is just crazy. The 82nd was hung up all of those hours, days, because it took tank cannons to blast away the SS... just like it took tank cannons to blast away the 2nd Paras under Frost. The Irish Guards entirely missed the fact that the 82nd was holding down the opposite flank of the Nijmegen battle. This is to be expected when a tanker gives his opinion from inside a turret. Those boys can't see squat when buttoned up.
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