Comments by "jim oberg" (@jimoberg3326) on "I Was Poised to be the First Black Astronaut. I Never Made it to Space. | 'Almost Famous' by Op-Docs" video.

  1. -- How about you verify it, first? So where is there ANY first or second had witnesses to the alleged nasty comment from Yeager? There's one half-century old THIRD-hand account from a guy with a justifiable grudge, plus Yeager's denial [and endorsement of his color-blindness from black pilots who actually flew with him] plus the record of no actual personal actions of that suggested type ever happening.
    13
  2. So where is there ANY first or second had witnesses to the alleged nasty comment from Yeager? There's one half-century old THIRD-hand account from a guy with a justifiable grudge, plus Yeager's denial [and endorsement of his color-blindness from black pilots who actually flew with him] plus the record of no actual personal actions of that suggested type ever happening.
    9
  3. Dwight's presence in the test pilot school was an inspiration for many black pilots to follow his lead, and one of them, Charles Bolden, became NASA Director after serving as an astronaut. Dwight's own studies at the test pilot school in 1963 were hampered mostly by the White House demand he take three-day-weekends off traveling the country on lecture tours, which he admits was a significant distraction from his studies. He never disputed that his class standing suffered from that distraction. As for the claimed comment by Yeager, Dwight says he heard it from a fellow student who said he heard it from an instructor who said he heard it from Yeager [who denies making it] -- the kind of multi-hand hearsay that would never be allowed in court or in a principled newspaper], nobody seems to have found any first or second hand witnesses, and Dwight went on to graduate with his classmates before getting a major test pilot leadership command in his original military branch. He set a sky-high standard that motivated many follow-on black pilots to strive to excel and surpass, so we're all grateful for his service and his post-service cultural contributions.
    8
  4. ​ @The1TheyCallFoo313  ""yet, you don't question the white guy's statement the same way do you?" == Yeager was testifying to what he remembers he said. The accusation is based on what Dwight recalls he heard from a guy who said he heard it from another guy who said he heard it from Yeager. I find both first-hand recollections equally credible, but the third hand recollection somewhat less. So before passing judgment, I'm asking -- can anybody locate any more direct witnesses to what Yeager is supposed to have said, to counter his own claim he never said it? Isn't that reasonable?
    7
  5. YES. Why not start a fund to buy him a ticket on a Virgin Galactic or Bezos spaceship flight next year, or even petition them to offer him free ticket as a publicity stunt? I'm good for a $100 pledge, let's get this rolling.
    6
  6. The story needs verification. Dwight's presence in the test pilot school was an inspiration for many black pilots to follow his lead, and one of them, Charles Bolden, became NASA Director after serving as an astronaut. Dwight's own studies at the test pilot school in 1963 were hampered mostly by the White House demand he take three-day-weekends off traveling the country on lecture tours, which he admits was a significant distraction from his studies. He never disputed that his class standing suffered from that distraction. As for the claimed comment by Yeager, Dwight says he heard it from a fellow student who said he heard it from an instructor who said he heard it from Yeager [who denies making it] -- the kind of multi-hand hearsay that would never be allowed in court or in a principled newspaper], nobody seems to have found any first or second hand witnesses, and Dwight went on to graduate with his classmates before getting a major test pilot leadership command in his original military branch. He set a sky-high standard that motivated many follow-on black pilots to strive to excel and surpass, so we're all grateful for his service and his post-service cultural contributions.
    5
  7. He said somebody told him that somebody told HIM that somebody ELSE told him something. So where is there ANY first or second had witnesses to the alleged nasty comment from Yeager? There's one half-century old THIRD-hand account from a guy with a justifiable grudge, plus Yeager's denial [and endorsement of his color-blindness from black pilots who actually flew with him] plus the record of no actual personal actions of that suggested type ever happening.
    4
  8.  @benproudfoot1409  - " attempting to discredit alleged bigotry in the 1960s is a highly questionable use of one’s time." == Thanks for the advice, perhaps my goal wasn't clear. As a respected spaceflight historian [and expert source for the NY Times for decades], I have been trying to 'CREDIT' -- to verify -- the very serious charge against Yeager about ordering other students to shun Dwight as a means of inducing him to quit. I've talked to other members of that test pilot class, to other AF veterans, to astronauts of that era -- NONE recall such a command being given, or being followed. If all that's left is third-hand uncorroborated hearsay that is discordant with every other source from that period, then what?
    4
  9.  @The1TheyCallFoo313  -- Here's the view of a black pilot colleague of Yeager's: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
    4
  10. " he was denied cause of racism. " == So where is there ANY first or second had witnesses to the alleged nasty comment from Yeager? There's one half-century old THIRD-hand account from a guy with a justifiable grudge, plus Yeager's denial [and endorsement of his color-blindness from black pilots who actually flew with him] plus the record of no actual personal actions of that suggested type ever happening.
    3
  11.  Pill Cosby  -- No, I seriously want an answer. And all I've gotten so far are dodges and evasions, like yours.
    3
  12.  @benproudfoot1409  == " presumably because he resented the Kennedy administration’s involvement in what he perceived as his domain" == No need to presume, I thought he spelled it out clearly, he felt Dwight didn't measure up to established criteria and was being given a pass for political propaganda motives. Influence-pedaling in promotions and assignments was not unheard of, and was culturally anathema to operational commanders who considered it physically dangerous in high-hazard duties. Speaking of not measuring up, was the issue of Dwight's height ever of interest, him being three inches shorter than the minimum design pilot height for the Apollo Lunar Module?
    3
  13. His highly-publicized presence in the two USAF test pilot schools in 1962-3 inspired a wave of follow-on fully-qualified black pilots such as Robert Lawrence, picked for USAF astronaut status in 1967, and others who became shuttle astronauts. Some died alongside their white colleagues on fatal missions [their names deserve special honor, too], and one became NASA Administrator who always honored Dwight for being his initial inspiration. We got where we are today because of pioneers such as Dwight, who deserve all the honor they earned.
    3
  14.  @davidadams2395  -- Do you suppose the NASA selection board paid attention to the awkward fact he was three inches below the minimum height design for the Lunar Module? He was 5'3", the shortest pilots that could fly the LM were 5'6". Why is this fact ignored and omitted by the grievance-fanning industry?
    3
  15.  @CynicalOldDwarf  == Don't be a jerk. The Kennedy White House made a political pawn out of him, chewed him up and spit him out when he was no longer politically useful. Now to cynics iit looks a lot like the 'politically correct' enhanced version of his story is useful again to the Dems to foster more inter-racial resentments to 'get out the vote'. The guy deserves all the honor we can give him for enduring, and inspiring, and finding a much higher artistic calling to everyone's benefit, so just lay off.
    3
  16.  @JohnDoe-ky6wz  -- I can't dispute that, or the experience-based instinct to generalize. There were plenty of authentic horrifying realities of racist hate and violence then, and later. The record also shows NASA was on the side of the angels on all levels of confrontation, so these accusations aren't just inaccurate, they're irresponsible. imho.
    3
  17. Cool, he was a semi-finalist for the 1978 class? http://www.spacefacts.de/bios/candidates/english/greene_lionel.htm George Carruthers, a noted astronomer, was also a runner-up then IIRC. https://youtu.be/d2eNwNNHMIk
    2
  18.  @TeraGreene1  -- We [in our 70's] are safely hunkered down and well-provisioned, but our anxiety for family, friends, and strangers is intense. Bless you for thinking to ask. As a retired 'rocket scientist', I'm researching the Ed Dwight story intensely, it's far more complex than the simple 'NASA racism' meme that's so politically profitable these days.
    2
  19. Uh, no. Only handful of the early astronauts ever flew X-planes, and many were younger than 29 at selection. Aside from his middlin' class standing, one key deal-breaker may have been his height, 3" too short to safely fly the Apollo Lunar Module.
    2
  20.  @Watchingyou-r9q  -- Please be more cautious about these incendiary stories. The 'shunning order' is very dubious, nobody's ever found a first or second hand witness to it, in half a century. Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58
    2
  21.  @corneliusalterego6527  == As a historian not committed to any particular person, I'm still trying to locate a single first or second-hand witness to the alleged 'shun him' order from Yeager aimed at Dwight. Any practical help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.
    2
  22.  @corneliusalterego6527  == ""you’re missing a LOT of information."" -- Yes, that can ALWAYS be a problem, especially with half-century old narratives. So 'due diligence' obliges us ALL to seek out supplemental and contextual information, as I've been trying to do on this controversy. Along those lines, what have you heard of regarding the suggestion Dwight was three inches too short to safely fly the Apollo Lunar Module?
    2
  23. Might there have been non-racist criteria at NASA that Dwight failed to adequately satisfy?
    2
  24. Press reports won't tell you the full story, including potential non-racial reasons why NASA chose other pilots. But his presence in the two USAF test pilot schools in 1962-3 inspired a wave of follow-on fully-qualified black pilots such as Robert Lawrence, picked for USAF astronaut status in 1967, and others who became shuttle astronauts. Some died alongside their white colleagues on fatal missions [their names deserve special honor, too], and one became NASA Administrator who always honored Dwight for being his initial inspiration. We got where we are today because of pioneers such as Dwight, who deserve all the honor they earned.
    2
  25. Why not start a fund to buy him a ticket on a Virgin Galactic or Bezos spaceship flight next year, or even petition them to offer him free ticket as a publicity stunt? I'm good for a $100 pledge, let's get this rolling.
    2
  26.  Tink Tong  -- I'm just interested in determining the historical, verifiable facts of the narrative. What's wrong with that?
    2
  27.  @JR-xi2md  -- Good advice for all of us, there are too many temptations around us trying to lure us into that doom. Now, how can we find any real witnesses to the alleged Yeager comment, that could well have reached Dwight's ears in highly garbled form, considering how many tongues it had to pass through to get to him?
    2
  28.  @benproudfoot1409  -- Funny thing is, all we have is a third-hand hearsay, sole source and uncorroborated, while Dwight himself later said some students kissed up to him trying to piggy-back on his White House influence. Nobody's found a single other witness in half a century.
    2
  29.  @benproudfoot1409  -- As you wish. I'll keep looking independently, if you have any suggested directions, please share them. jamesEoberg@comcast.net
    2
  30. He did, and he motivated follow-on candidates to gain the stars.
    2
  31. NASA didn't pick him in the Sep 1963 astronaut selection, he admits his class standing was middling, but claims actual pilot skill should have not been a factor because the capsules were remote-controlled anyway
    2
  32. Good advice. And it seems even Captain Dwight may not actually have lived through the ordeal as portrayed in the NY Times and its 'Project 1619' editorial spin. For example, the alleged Yeager comment was third-hand hearsay [no primary or secondary witnesses were ever found] that had no impact on Dwight graduating on schedule from the USAF research pilot [NOT 'astronaut'] school. His class standing wasn't tops because as he admits, his nationwide three-day-weekend lecture tours for the White House detracted from his studying and his flying practice. And the NASA selection board may have noticed he was about 3" too short to fly the Apollo lunar module anyway. But for inspiring a cadre of follow-on black pilots who DID meet the stringent requirements, he certainly deserves honorable acclaim.
    2
  33. Hollywood excels at science fiction and fantasy, why not?
    2
  34.  @leslieah7060  -- I'm hoping that SOMEBODY will try to answer it. Will you?
    2
  35.  @franci.f.  -- His presence in the test pilot school in 1963 inspired a wave of follow-on fully-qualified black pilots such as Robert Lawrence, picked for USAF astronaut status in 1967, and others who became shuttle astronauts, some died alongside their white colleagues on fatal missions [their names deserve special honor, too], and one became NASA Administrator who always honored Dwight for being his initial inspiration. We got where we are today because of pioneers such as Dwight, who deserve all the honor they earned. What I suggest we DON'T need are media voices deliberately using manufactured grievances to inflame manufactured resentments to manipulate contemporary Americans into particular political choices.
    2
  36.  @franci.f.  -- You are a thoughtful and compassionate person whose assessments would be very helpful to everyone, don't give up hope even though we see all sides throwing gasoline on any sparks they can conjure up. Be well.
    2
  37.  @franci.f.  -- Yeah, I'm the guy [www.jamesoberg.com] and whatever investigations I've succeeded at often relied on the assistance of helpful strangers, too.
    2
  38.  @franci.f.  -- I've put a lot of stories at www.jamesoberg.com, please enjoy them.
    2
  39.  @HS-ie8tj  "He was racially abused and called Kennedy boy non stop. They tried to destroy his mind. They couldn't. Once Kennedy was dead, they took him out. Just as they had dreamt of doing. Animals." == Please don't let myths poison your mind, there are plenty of authentic grievances that never should be forgotten. But this isn't one of them. Kennedy' assassination had nothing to do with his career, in September 1963 NASA picked the top 2 pilots in the class [Dwight was 8th out of 16], JFK was shot in November, and the class ended as scheduled a few weeks later with all the graduates including Dwight assigned to flight testing duties. His own book admits his class standing was not affected by harassment but by the White House demand he take three-day weekends flying around the country giving speeches while the other students stayed on base studying and practice-flying.
    2
  40.  @shrineheart87  -- It's dismaying how so much inflammatory fabrications have been presented as the true history of this situation.
    2
  41.  @itsme7819 == OK. My investment is as a USAF/NASA veteran, and a spaceflight historian [see www.jamesoberg.com]. The reconstruction of the events as serious aerospace historians see it, is Captain Dwight being used as a symbol by the Kennedy Administration, to the point that he reasonably believed that White House backing would get him a NASA astronaut selection, whatever his technical skills might have measured at. Dwight acknowledged that the long weekends of national speaking tours arranged by the White House did impact his class standing, but he always believed [and still does] that top-level piloting skills weren't really a fair criterion for NASA selection because [says Dwight] all the space capsules were continuously remote-controlled from Houston anyway and piloting skill shouldn't have been a factor. .
    2
  42.  @bellydancer3146  == "That racist"? So where is there ANY first or second had witnesses to the alleged nasty comment from Yeager? There's one half-century old THIRD-hand account from a guy with a justifiable grudge, plus Yeager's denial [and endorsement of his color-blindness from black pilots who actually flew with him] plus the record of no actual personal actions of that suggested type ever happening.
    2
  43.  @ARCHR221  -- First, you're dodging the key question -- WHERE are the first or second hand witnesses that the reported comment was accurately described? My interest is as a retired 'rocket scientist' and highly-regarded spaceflight historian who doesn't shrink from heretical or unpopular interpretations, and as a veteran of USAF service from the early 1960s. I also care about the unheralded experiences of men who served with Yeager, especially pilots like this guy: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
    2
  44. Agreed!
    2
  45. And it was so much in keeping with their established stunt space strategy that it was predicted a year before it happened. Stunts worked a charm on their gullible target audience.
    2
  46. Count me in to contribute to a GoFundMe account.
    2
  47. Dwight's presence in the test pilot school was an inspiration for many black pilots to follow his lead, and one of them, Charles Bolden, became NASA Director after serving as an astronaut. Dwight's own studies at the test pilot school in 1963 were hampered mostly by the White House demand he take three-day-weekends off traveling the country on lecture tours, which he admits was a significant distraction from his studies. He never disputed that his class standing suffered from that distraction. As for the claimed comment by Yeager, Dwight says he heard it from a fellow student who said he heard it from an instructor who said he heard it from Yeager [who denies making it] -- the kind of multi-hand hearsay that would never be allowed in court or in a principled newspaper], nobody seems to have found any first or second hand witnesses, and Dwight went on to graduate with his classmates before getting a major test pilot leadership command in his original military branch. He set a sky-high standard that motivated many follow-on black pilots to strive to excel and surpass, so we're all grateful for his service and his post-service cultural contributions.
    2
  48. Agreed. Dwight's presence in the test pilot school was an inspiration for many black pilots to follow his lead, and one of them, Charles Bolden, became NASA Director after serving as an astronaut. Dwight's own studies at the test pilot school in 1963 were hampered mostly by the White House demand he take three-day-weekends off traveling the country on lecture tours, which he admits was a significant distraction from his studies. He never disputed that his class standing suffered from that distraction. As for the claimed comment by Yeager, Dwight says he heard it from a fellow student who said he heard it from an instructor who said he heard it from Yeager [who denies making it] -- the kind of multi-hand hearsay that would never be allowed in court or in a principled newspaper], nobody seems to have found any first or second hand witnesses, and Dwight went on to graduate with his classmates before getting a major test pilot leadership command in his original military branch. He set a sky-high standard that motivated many follow-on black pilots to strive to excel and surpass, so we're all grateful for his service and his post-service cultural contributions.
    2
  49. The folks who think spaceflight is fake and the Earth is flat. Ignore them.
    2
  50. Where exactly did NASA get it wrong?
    2
  51. The reporter's wording was tacky, but even the astronauts called themselves 'the all-American boys'. Where is the blame on NASA in all this?
    2
  52.  @LucDevine  == You are extremely well read. We share a lot of overlapping interests, I'd be grateful to get your assessments of some of my own investigations on many of these genuinely fascinating mysteries. Give me a little time to see what you might be interested in first, please.
    2
  53.  @The1TheyCallFoo313  -- If the comment [actually, a question] is 'weak', it should be easy to answer. I've been asking it a lot these past few months, as you noted correctly. Nobody has been able to answer it. I'd call that a pretty STRONG question, then... wouldn't you?
    2
  54.  @marioarias9942  -- So you can't find ANY witness to that alleged Yeager quote either? Me neither. Maybe it was just gossip.
    2
  55.  @averageamericangirl6819  -- They were, with plenty of authentic horrifying realities of racist hate and violence. The record also shows NASA was on the side of the angels on all levels of confrontation, so these accusations aren't just inaccurate, they're irresponsible. imho.
    1
  56.  @gnranger -- A tad obsessive, I don't deny it. But I'm a historian and I really think it's a fair question. So far, nobody has answered it.
    1
  57. As intended? Do you suspect there was more to the story that was left out?
    1
  58. Please seek professional help.
    1
  59. Uh, the shuttle program ended ten years ago. Why not start a fund to buy him a ticket on a Virgin Galactic or Bezos spaceship flight next year, or even petition them to offer him  free ticket as a publicity stunt? I'm good for a $100 pledge, let's get this rolling.
    1
  60.  EmpireFall -- Don't ever believe ANY single source on 'what happened' in such inflammatory narratives. As a historian, what bothers me most about this story is that there are no first or second hand sources regarding the alleged Yeager comment, and that Dwight's subsequent training went through to successful graduation and reassignment. to test pilot responsibilities commensurate with his attained expertise. The two guys picked from Dwight's class of 16, by NASA, were at the top of their class, Dwight admits he wasn't, his excuse is all the weekend travel for speeches arranged by the White House, while the other students stayed on base studying and flying. Seems to me the White House put him in an untenable position that was going to be politically useful no matter what the outcome -- and it's still being used for political use, even today, as the NY Times shows.
    1
  61. Even though he was 3 inches shorter than the vehicle's minimum height design spec? LM pilots flew standing up peering out a small window.
    1
  62. Where's the evidence for NASA racial bias? While in the USAF "Aerospace Research Test Pilot" school [NOT an 'astronaut school'] Dwight came up before the NASA 'Group 3' astronaut review board in 3rdQ 1963, the top 2 students [of ~15] were picked by NASA [Dave Scott and Ted Freeman]. Dwight admits his evaluation scores weren't that high due to all the weekends away that the White House demanded he do speaking tours stead of studying / practicing. He thought he deserved a pass on his lower grades because the White House wanted him picked no matter what, for symbolic reasons, and because he insisted top-skill test pilots weren't needed anyway since the capsules were continuously remotely-controlled from Houston anyway [which wasn't actually accurate]. The class ended as scheduled in December and the students dispersed to test pilot related assignments, as always planned.
    1
  63. No argument with your overall view, but as a historian, I'm still troubled by the too-easy assumption that the Yeager comment was accurately described after a third-hand hearsay sequence. Nobody seems able to find any actual witnesses to the statement, nor any consequences of the alleged command, if it even ever existed. Dwight graduated on schedule with the rest of his classmates.
    1
  64. What 'other astronauts'? This was an AF training program, none of the students were astronauts. And none of the students ever seemed to have remembered such a comment by Yeager [who denies it], Dwight heard a third-hand hearsay of unverifiable accuracy. And he graduated from the course just fine.
    1
  65. -- About Captain Dwight?
    1
  66.  @smileandlaughs  == It may not have been that cynical, if he'd been picked it would be a campaign plus for the Dems, and if not picked, a motivation for renewed loyalty to the Dems from angry black voters. But nobody made a political issue like that, back then, so I just take them at their word, they wanted to let the best available candidate have a shot. Nowadays, the political connection of this narrative with the NY Times editorial campaign on '1619' seems very suggestive.
    1
  67. So how do we know if that was really said? As for the claimed comment by Yeager, Dwight says he heard it from a fellow student who said he heard it from an instructor who said he heard it from Yeager [who denies making it] -- the kind of multi-hand hearsay that would never be allowed in court or in a principled newspaper], nobody seems to have found any first or second hand witnesses, and Dwight went on to graduate with his classmates before getting a major test pilot leadership command in his original military branch. He set a sky-high standard that motivated many follow-on black pilots to strive to excel and surpass, so we're all grateful for his service and his post-service cultural contributions.
    1
  68.  @Alvin-1138  -- No argument. Lots of people made lots of stupid comments, did lots of stupid and evil things, and still do. NASA had a leading role in its workforce and its communities in the 1960s in beating back those ancient curses. But Dwight's major drawback in the school seems to have been the burden of three-day-weekend nationwide speeches for the White House while other students stayed on base studying and flying.
    1
  69.  @Alvin-1138  "Btw I get it, nobody likes hearing their Hero wasn't always heroic. But reality is reality." -- No, I don't think you get it. I'm a spaceflight historian interested in the full reliable facts of this particular incident. Why hasn't anyone ever found a first or second hand witness to the alleged comment? Perhaps a triple-hearsay mutation of some original remark got to Dwight. I'd like to know the reality, not just get my existing biases reinforced.
    1
  70.  @Alvin-1138  -- Thanks for the rational response to an inflammatory subject. 'Every time' isn't the issue, it's this one very well-documented and researched episode. The NY Times last July reported it talked with two contemporaries of his at Edwards, apparently neither of them had any recollection of such a comment. And the comment as it got to him by multiple hearsay didn't make any sense because he WASN'T ostracized [by his own words] and graduated as scheduled six months later [and was 'gone', but not because he was driven away, but because that was the end of the training program].
    1
  71. About NASA?
    1
  72.  @bluephantom6043  -- What did NASA do wrong?
    1
  73.  @bluephantom6043  -- Agree. He inspired a lot of further applications from black pilots, one of who later became NASA Administrator, so his honorable place in history is assured. Thanks for the reply. [his main problem seems to have been he was too SHORT to fly the Lunar Module, by about three inches!]
    1
  74.  @bluephantom6043  "o be denied after completing everything just because of your height, "== The school he completed was a general aerospace test piloting school, with NASA astronaut selection awaiting only a very small fraction of graduates. He completed the school and was given a top position in test flight operations at Wright Patterson AFB. He admitted his class standing was not top-drawer [like the 2 of the 16 who were picked by NASA] because he sacrificed study and practice flying time to fly across the country giving speeches for the White House every week-end. He wanted a waiver on flying skill level because he claimed the space capsules were all remote-controlled from Houston anyway -- but they weren't.
    1
  75. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  76. The poor guy was thrown into the public spotlight for JFK's political advantages, and I don't doubt he was assured by the White House that they would get him selected. And he makes it clear that the publicity campaigns they scheduled him on did significantly distract from his studies and flight time [in his autobiography he blames his lower ratings on Yeager for giving permission to take most weekends off, supposedly with the malicious intent of having those trips lower his performance, which he admits they did]. He played an honorable role as an inspiration to the next generation, but that seems poor consolation for his dashed hopes
    1
  77. Where exactly did NASA get it wrong?
    1
  78.  @janea5898  -- Like this, for example? The White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting JFK policies, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying. His final class standing was 8th out of 16, NASA only picked #1 and #2.
    1
  79.  @janea5898  What is 'horrible' about what happened to Captain Dwight? He was in a group of about two hundred pilots in the running for astronaut selection, and NASA picked 14. How was he a victim?
    1
  80. Do you WANT to understand why not?
    1
  81. He inspired a follow-on generation of African-American astronauts, one of whom became director of NASA. His experience suffered more from White House demands he take time away from his Edwards AFB training to travel and give political speeches, and he concedes his class standing was middling [only the top 2 of 16 got selected by NASA itself]. Apparently the White House promised him they'd make NASA take him anyway, but NASA didn't [all this, BEFORE Kennedy got shot], based on existing selection criteria, probably including [NOT mentioned in current news media coverage] he was three inches too short to safely fly the Apollo 'lunar lander' [the crew stood up to see out a small window, and used ceiling mounted navigation instruments he would have needed a footstool to reach].
    1
  82. Competition was fierce. In my analysis as a space program veteran and spaceflight historian, Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting JFK policies, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying [his final class standing was 8th out of 16]. Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. The AF put him on their list of nominees for the 1963 selection but after consideration NASA did not even invite him to Houston for final interviews [only the top 2 of his ARPS class were finally selected, he had rated 8th]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision. In addition to his class standing, NASA’s decision may also have been based on physical stature: at 5'03" he was three inches shorter than the minimum design spec for pilot height for the Apollo Lunar Module.
    1
  83. == Where's reliable validation of the alleged comment? Captain Dwight said he heard it from a student who said he'd heard it from an instructor who said he'd heard it from Yeager. I don't doubt Dwight's account of what he personally heard. But any court of law or ethical scholar or competent journalist wouldn't TOUCH a third-hand hearsay allegation without more direct sourcing.
    1
  84. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  85. His standing in the Aerospace Research Pilots course [run by the USAF, it was a 'prep school' for pilots in planned military as well as civilian spaceflight careers] was middling, his excuse was all the time he had to take away from base giving speeches for the White House rather than studying and practice-flying. He claimed being a top student like the two guys [out of a dozen] NASA picked for the '63 astronaut class wasn't really necessary since the capsules were all remote-controlled from Houston anyway [which isn't true, actually]. And at 5'03" he was 3 inches below the minimum pilot height that the Apollo lunar module was being designed for.
    1
  86. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  87. Nobody seems able to find any witnesses to this alleged comment, just third-hand hearsay. Shouldn't we get better evidence?
    1
  88.  @Qwistie_ -- [grin] Very revealing response, thanks.
    1
  89.  @Qwistie_  -- Any imaginative excuse will do when you don't have evidence for a specific claim of fact. Let's leave it at that.
    1
  90. Agree we all should be proud of him. But Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting Democrats, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying. In September 1963 the two top rated students in the class [Ted Freeman and Dave Scott] were among the 14 new pilots NASA selected for real astronaut training, but Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him as well on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision. Dwight's most significant positive impact [for which full honor and gratitude is due] was to create the national publicity that propelled even more fully qualified black pilots and scientists into subsequent spaceflight careers. Plus he was three inches too short to fly the Apollo moon lander vehicle. NOBODY that short was ever accepted for the Apollo program. NY Times neglected to tell you that, huh?
    1
  91. The anti-Dwight racism charge against Yeager is pretty shaky on historical grounds, want to see some other assessments -- including one from Dwight himself?
    1
  92. Were there possibly legitimate reasons NASA didn't pick him?
    1
  93. "This makes me angry " == The story is =SUPPOSED= to make you angry, why are your buttons so easy to push. Could there have been non-racist reasons why NASA passed on the chance to select Dwight as an astronaut? Reasons this film hid from you, on purpose?
    1
  94.  @sebastianniqvist3144  == My point is that coverage of this dramatic chapter seems deliberately one-sided. In my analysis as a space program veteran and spaceflight historian, Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting JFK policies, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying [his final class standing was 8th out of 16]. Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. The AF put him on their list of nominees for the 1963 selection but after consideration NASA did not even invite him to Houston for final interviews [only the top 2 of his ARPS class were finally selected]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision. In addition to his class standing and massive White-House-imposed public relations duties, NASA’s decision may also have been based on physical stature: at 5'03" he was three inches shorter than the minimum design spec for pilot height for the Apollo Lunar Module, requiring he carry a footstool onto any moon-landing mission he might have been assigned to.
    1
  95. -- "Destroyed"? Might there have been any legitimate non-racist reasons for NASA to pick other candidates over him?
    1
  96. ​ It’s Me == Where's reliable validation of the alleged comment? Captain Dwight said he heard it from a student who said he'd heard it from an instructor who said he'd heard it from Yeager. I don't doubt Dwight's account of what he personally heard. But any court of law or ethical scholar or competent journalist wouldn't TOUCH a third-hand hearsay allegation without more direct sourcing.
    1
  97. Peddled, or counterfeited?
    1
  98. Didn't seem to work: "Over time, he slowly won over the other trainees: “The other students began to come around. 'Cause they figured out, ‘Say wait a minute now. They tell us to stay away from this cat. The real deal is that that cat is gonna be the only one of us that's gonna go to the moon. If the President has his way, he's the only one of us that's gonna go! So we better be his friend.’” " https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=astronaut%20ed%20dwight&epa=SEARCH_BOX
    1
  99. == Wasn't that movie about the first Mercury orbital flight, not the moon flight?
    1
  100. Just looking for any real witnesses to the alleged Yeager racist comment. So far, NONE.
    1
  101. NASA didn't select him or dozens of other test pilot applicants for the new astronaut class in Sep 1963. Why is his case 'racism'?
    1
  102.  @missdee212 == Thanks for replying. I wish you would try to explain. The facts are, he finished the class 8th out of 16, and NASA took #1 and #2 [in the September 1963 class]. Dwight does not dispute his class standing but points out that his studies suffered from the White House requirement he take three-day weekends away from base, giving speeches [he was promised they'd fix it for him, but didn't]. And there is the troubling matter of him being 3" too short [5'03"] to safely fly the Apollo 'Lunar Module' [5'06" was the shortest guy to fly it, Pete Conrad], might that have been a factor?
    1
  103. As an inspirational figure he fully deserves gratitude and honors, and I'd chip in at GoFundMe for a flight for him on a private rocket that could take place in a year or so.
    1
  104. Ed Dwight gets an asteroid named after him -- NASA.
    1
  105.  @mariagalleriaxi8632  == Nobody else seems to have heard that nasty third-hand-hearsay order attributed to Yeager. No witnesses ever have been found. Dwight graduated on schedule with the rest of his class. NASA picked the top two rated pilots out of the 16 students. Dwight admits he didn't rate highly because of all the time he had to take off away from school giving public speeches for the White House. And if anything's been erased, maybe it's the awkward fact that he was 3" too short to safely fly the Apollo 'Lunar Module'. Is there any need for other reasons not to select him for the Apollo program?
    1
  106.  @mariagalleriaxi8632  == "why did they treat him like a lost cause after the Kennedy assassination?" == I don't see how the assassination had anything to do with it. NASA had made its 1963 astronaut class selection two months earlier. The test pilot class Dwight was in had always been scheduled to end in December, when all the graduates received their next assignments in flight testing. The next NASA pilot astronaut class wasn't selected until 1966. The whole idea that Kennedy's death doomed Dwight's selection by NASA fails the simple test of chronological sequence.
    1
  107.  @mariagalleriaxi8632  == "The lack of eyewitness reports stating that yeager, or any other of his colleagues, made racist remarks towards Dwight, is simply because no one would have been inclined to report such a thing." == Three of the astronauts in the NASA selection that year -- Dave Scott, Walt Cunningham, and Mike Collins - have explicitly stated that they never heard or heard of any racist remarks about Dwight. Yeager denied it too. So what's the next excuse?
    1
  108.  @mariagalleriaxi8632 -- "The fact that he was 3 inches too short. Where did you get that information? Unless it was in the video and I happened to miss it. I even looked at his wikipedia page, but I see no mentions of it" == Of course you wouldn't hear about it in the major media coverage. He was 5'03" tall, an inch shorter than the AF pilot minimum, but he was given a pass due to his enthusiasm. The Apollo Lunar Module [where the pilots stand on the floor during powered descent and on-moon and ascent] has a forward viewport and roof-installed navigation optical instruments, and it was designed to accommodate crew between 5'06" and 6'02", with Pete Conrad at 5'06" the shortest-ever flown crewman. It should be obvious why the NY Times and other reports would leave out discussion of such an issue.
    1
  109.  @mariagalleriaxi8632  Thanks for the conversation. Dwight inspired a follow-generation of black astronauts who fully joined into the triumphs and tragedies of space exploration. Worth all gratitude and honor from all earthmen.
    1
  110. He might be. Where are any real witnesses to his alleged nasty comment? A guy says that another guy said that another guy said HE said such-and-such isn't persuasive in a court of law... or common sense, seems to me.
    1
  111. How exactly did racism at NASA block Dwight's walking on the moon during Apollo?
    1
  112. Shouldn't his story also include the part about him not meeting the standard for height [minimum allowable was 5' 4" so one's feet could exert maximum force on cockpit foot pedals in emergencies], which early in his career the officers overlooked because of his enthusiasm and dedication to becoming a pilot? But the design specs for NASA spacesuits and for the Lunar Module [where the crew stood on the floor to fly it] was a minimum height of 5'6" [which Grissom and Conrad barely met]. Heartbreaking and trivial, perhaps, but not arbitrary. That still wouldn't prevent him from getting a space tourist flight next year when they begin, and I'd be happy to pledge money towards the ticket.
    1
  113. -- Dwight on NPR, March 2020: " I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on."
    1
  114. What's your beef with NASA on this issue?
    1
  115.  @dennismorris7573  -- After the Dec 20 flub of Boeing's capsule, that's an even better idea! Check out Sierra Nevada's "Dreamchaser" vehicle, now being developed.
    1
  116.  @reanetsemoleleki8219  == The AF min height is 5'04", but he was nearly an inch shorter, and got a waiver on that based on his enthusiasm, he claims. The limit is based on physical force and range needed in pressing cockpit foot pedals. Flight doctors had noted a correlation in accident rate based on shorter pilots dying more frequently in mid-air flight control crises. The LM limits were based on the two pilots flying it standing up in front of a small window [looking out and DOWN as they descended to the moon's surface], using ceiling-mounted optical navigation devices to get back to the main ship. He could have used a stool [his lighter body weight made adding the device feasible] but if symbolism was the driver for his presence, how would the need for him [alone of all the astronauts] to carry a stool onto the spaceship looked, to the world public?
    1
  117.  @misiaazoska  == "why would they make him believe that he had a chance?" == I don't think the White House handlers had a clue about the height issue. But it sure seems they gave him the impression that if he kept giving speeches, his class performance wouldn't be important, they'd order NASA to ;pick him anyway. I've done a full court press for any NASA astronaut selection board records from 1963 and established to my satisfaction they were destroyed in a hurricane flooded warehouse in 1978, but one factor NASA would have noticed [besides the height question] would have been how the White House severely interfered with his USAF training for cross-country speeches, and how likely those distractions would have doubled had he been picked as an astronaut trainee. . And Yeager had nothing to do with any of that -- his 'shun him' order remains uncorroborated third-hand half-century-old hearsay.
    1
  118. Mid-20121, and there's still no sign of a SINGLE first-hand or second-hand witness to the alleged Yeager command to test pilot class students to 'shun' Dwight. Sounds more and more like a half-century old third-hand hearsay garble.
    1
  119. Well-deserved honor from the new 'US Space Command" == https://static.dvidshub.net/media/pubs/pdf_55597.pdf
    1
  120. Based on a single uncorroborated third-hand rumor? Versus Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 ... and Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58
    1
  121.  @pbailey68  == " ed freely talks about all the horrible things chuck said to him to get him to quit. " == Yeager wasn't their den mother, as it's been explained to me he tested every student's commitment to the very dangerous career. Other black pilots who flew with him didn't feel anything particularly racially-motivated, here's an excerpt from one of them: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
    1
  122.  @pbailey68  == "what he said last week. " == Where was that. Here's what he wrote a few months ago: Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58
    1
  123.  @pbailey68  -- The big historical dispute is the claim Yeager instructed the other students to shun Dwight, isolate him, so he'd quit in six months. Funny thing is, nobody's been able to find a single first-hand or second-hand witness to the claimed comment in fifty years.
    1
  124. NASA passed on considering him for the 1963 astronaut class, can you imagine any non-racist reasons they may have done that? Class standing? Demonstrated study skills? Attitude to a pilot's responsibilities on a spaceship? Too short to see out the Lunar Module window?
    1
  125.  @firstlast9813  ==In my analysis, Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting JFK policies, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying. Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision.
    1
  126.  @firstlast9813  -- He had an awesomely creative career as an artist, how is that 'broken'? Like 99% of applicants, he didn't get selected as an astronaut, was everybody else 'rejected'? He admitted his school performance was just 'average' but insisted he deserved selection for the inspirational propaganda value.
    1
  127.  @firstlast9813 -- He said this himself. He blamed his failure on Yeager for allowing him to leave the base on weekends, on granting his request to go on the lecture ours arranged by the White House, knowing it would depress his school performance. He also did e4ntion the concerns over his below-allowable-minimum pilot height.
    1
  128.  @firstlast9813  -- YOU didn't miss it, the people controlling the media narrative deliberately left it out. Everybody's got agendas, from all directions -- there ought to be a better way with internet search engines to find the what-AREN'T-they-telling-me about any controversial target. I dunno how to implement that.
    1
  129. Did he mention he was several inches too short to see over the pilot's window in the Lunar Module?
    1
  130.  @5pctLowBattery  -- Isn't this video about Ed Dwight's experience in 1963?
    1
  131. " his racism tarnished all of his accomplishments and breaks my heart that he invoked "The Wrong Stuff" that prevented an exemplary human being like Ed Dwight from making a significant contribution to society." == This is a serious accusation and the historical support for it is mighty shaky. Here's some VERIFIABLE testimony with a starkly different view: Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58 Here's a Yeager profile by a black pilot who flew with him: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
    1
  132. The Smithsonian special 'Black in Space" let him repeat is story but concluded, according to Smithsonian curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Ed Dwight’s career. And historians have searched for evidence and haven’t found it.” No primary or secondary witness to the hearsay report has ever been found.
    1
  133. Will you do any fact-checking first?
    1
  134. -- What did NASA or any of its employees have to do with this? He never was there.
    1
  135.  @alizaidi8846  -- Not allowed? By NASA? Dwight admitted he wasn't at the top of his class, but he said he had a good excuse [too much time traveling for White House organized speeches] and that being a top test pilot wasn't really important anyway since the space capsules were all remote-controlled from Houston. Do you believe that?
    1
  136.  @alizaidi8846  -- That might or might not be true, but rather than just assume it's true in order to bolster your own views, how about doing some historical research to determine the facts rather than the modern political spin on this dramatic episode? Why do you imagine NASA didn't pick him out of the two hundred serious contenders for astronaut election?
    1
  137. Black astronauts have died alongside their white colleagues on space flights, aboard Challenger and Columbia. Don't dishonor their memories, please.
    1
  138. Who are we talking about, specifically, as the 'blockers'? Was NASA involved at all?
    1
  139. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  140. Sad, if he did. In half a century, nobody's found a first-hand or second-hand witness to the comment in the version that was relayed to Dwight through several anonymous retellings. Third-hand hearsay without any corroboration has no place in academia, jurisprudence, or journalism, but it seems to flourish on the Internet. What am I missing?
    1
  141. ??
    1
  142.  @glenncater1  -- Why should I go there? What do you claim it proves?
    1
  143. [facepalm]
    1
  144. No question it was an ordeal on him, but he was as much [or more] a victim of cynical White House electioneering manipulation as of non-existent ''astronaut racism'' [as Wikipedia and contemporary political exploiters called it].
    1
  145. NASA didn't pick him for the 1963 astronaut class. Might there have been any non-racial reasons?
    1
  146. Re Dwight, where in the NASA selection process do you think unfair criteria were applied? Class standing? Physical condition? Attitude? In my analysis as a space program veteran and spaceflight historian, Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting JFK policies, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying [his final class standing was 8th out of 16]. Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. The AF put him on their list of nominees for the 1963 selection but after consideration NASA did not even invite him to Houston for final interviews [only the top 2 of his ARPS class were finally selected]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision. In addition to his class standing, NASA’s decision may also have been based on physical stature: at 5'03" he was three inches shorter than the minimum design spec for pilot height for the Apollo Lunar Module.
    1
  147. " how he was denied the chance " == Did you ever wonder, were there other reasons besides skin color that might have made him less desirable for selection? His class standing was 8th out of 16, NASA picked #1 and #2, he himself admitted his studies suffered by the White House requirement he take three-day weekends off base, giving speeches around the country.
    1
  148. = Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting Democrats, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying. In September 1963 the two top rated students in the class [Ted Freeman and Dave Scott] were among the 14 new pilots NASA selected for real astronaut training, but Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him as well on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision. Dwight's most significant positive impact [for which full honor and gratitude is due] was to create the national publicity that propelled even more fully qualified black pilots and scientists into subsequent spaceflight careers.
    1
  149.  @GigitheTrader  -- Thanks for the exchange, let's honor the guy for the inspiration he's passed on to others.
    1
  150. Where exactly did NASA get it wrong?
    1
  151. -- To keep Dwight from flying into space?
    1
  152. Huh? What did Slayton do that looks racist?
    1
  153. -- Aside from third-hand hearsay, where's any evidence [like, from a witness] he ever said that?
    1
  154.  @rogerscottcathey  : "That's tantamount to calling Cpt. Dwight a liar. " == No, it's not at all. He reported on a rumor he'd heard second hand. I have no problem accepting that he reported what he'd been told truthfully.
    1
  155. "Over time, he slowly won over the other trainees: “The other students began to come around. 'Cause they figured out, ‘Say wait a minute now. They tell us to stay away from this cat. The real deal is that that cat is gonna be the only one of us that's gonna go to the moon. If the President has his way, he's the only one of us that's gonna go! So we better be his friend.’” " https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=astronaut%20ed%20dwight&epa=SEARCH_BOX
    1
  156.  @rogerscottcathey : At 05:45 - [Ed Dwight] “If there was any discrimination, I thought it was cause I was short and not cause I was black (laughs). So it wasn't until later when I really saw the depth of it and how dastard it was when I started reading all this black history. And I said, "Oh my god." “ https://youtu.be/-RoPyVycNmE
    1
  157.  @rogerscottcathey  "I take the man at his word." == I do too. He heard what he reported, but how accurate was what he'd been told? Even the NY Times, who sent a reporter out there, apparently couldn't find anybody else who remembered such a comment.
    1
  158.  @rogerscottcathey  -- Thanks, you did the right thing. Meanwhile, we all appreciate Dwight's contributions on Earth, to inspire, to enhance awareness, to make us redouble commitment to live up to our professed ideals... good stuff.
    1
  159.  @rogerscottcathey  -- If your looking for a pattern for me, please include these data points: I consider it an honor that I was allowed to helped publicize the astronaut trainee status of USAF Capt Robert Lawrence in 1997 so he could be added to NASA's astronaut memorial in Florida. I attended that ceremony shortly after I quit my NASA job over safety issues. Robert Lawrence http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7018497/#.W7SlJmhKg2w my 1996 letter to amf http://www.jamesoberg.com/96nov11-to-desantis.pdf 1997 story about him and me http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1997-10-27-9710270194-story.html
    1
  160.  @rogerscottcathey  - Yeager explained that he objected to being ordered to include a good pilot who hadn't risen to the level Yeager's team defined. Dwight and supporters argued that those criteria were unnecessarily high, based on Dwight's claim that actually anybody could fly in space since the capsule was always remote-controlled from Houston.
    1
  161. NASA didn't select him or dozens of other test pilot applicants for the new astronaut class in Sep 1963. Why is his case 'racism'?
    1
  162. So you think a thirdhand uncorroborated hearsay claim is solid enough to base an entire film on?
    1
  163.  @jollybee515  -- Nobody else ever recalled hearing Yeager say anything like that. Dwight recalls somebody telling him that somebody else said they'd been told that Yeager had said it.
    1
  164.  @jollybee515  - Dwight has described hearing the account of Yeager's comments from a fellow student [unnamed] who told him he'd heard it from an instructor [unnamed] who claimed to have heard Yeager say it. That level of uncorroborated multi-step hearsay would be laughed out of academia, jurisprudence, or journalism and never published as 'evidence' for anything. What's changed?
    1
  165. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  166. His standing in the Aerospace Research Pilots course was middling, his excuse was all the time he had to take away from base giving speeches for the White House rather than studying and practice-flying. He claimed being a top student like the two guys NASA picked for the '63 astronaut class wasn't really necessary since the capsules were all remote-controlled from Houston anyway [which isn't true, actually]. And at 5'03" he was 3 inches below the minimum height the lunar module was being designed for.
    1
  167. Have you run out of real historical racism atrocities that you've got to invent new ones?
    1
  168. And that made you think the Castro regime was morally superior?
    1
  169.  @5pctLowBattery  ????
    1
  170.  @Choxchip63  -- Do we actually have any witnesses to the nasty Yeager comment?
    1
  171.  @Choxchip63  -- Dwight reported [and I believe him] that he heard a guy tell him that another guy had told HIM that Yeager had said that. I just wish we had somebody who claimed to have actually heard Yeager say it.
    1
  172.  @Choxchip63  -- The thing is, black pilots who actually flew with him reported he had zero racism issues: Here's the view of a black pilot colleague of Yeager's: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
    1
  173. == Dwight's behavior inspired follow-on black astronauts to reach the highest levels in orbit and in the NASA infrastructure, so all honor to him for that. But your claim " infact you were the most qualified candidate to go to space" is not a fact, even Dwight admitted his studies in the test pilot school [NOT 'astronaut training'] suffered due to the White House demands that he spend three-day weekends flying round the country giving speeches while all the other students did extra studying and flying. It was also awkward that, at 5'03" tall, he was several inches too short to fly the Apollo Lunar Module then under development [the crew stood up to fly it, looking through a small forward window and using ceiling mounted navigation instruments, and the shortest guy to ever fly it was 'Pete' Conrad who was 5'06"].
    1
  174. I second this idea! Why not start a fund to buy him an up-down ticket on a Virgin Galactic or Bezos spaceship flight next year, or even petition them to offer him free ticket as a publicity stunt? I'm good for a $100 pledge, let's get this rolling.
    1
  175. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  176.  @angelotero7729  -- I think Apollo was one of the world's greatest accomplishments, with positive repercussions both immediately and far into the future. The media coverage last summer was grudgingly deferential but snarky with repetitive asides, like 'Don't forget the nazis' and 'NASA was mean to women and minorities."
    1
  177.  @angelotero7729  - Here's my view, as a spaceflight historian and program veteran, of Dwight's rightful, honorable place in history, and the dishonorable way today's political propagandists have been distorting it: For the NY Times, they highlighted a story of how a black USAF pilot named Ed Dwight was denied his rightful place on a moon landing mission by fierce racist mistreatment, and ultimately by the assassination of his sponsor, JFK. Along with that story, which was reprinted worldwide, they issued a string of self-congratulatory analyses of their own journalistic awesomeness in finding and spreading the story. But the historic record contradicts the NY Times on every particular. Dwight was a talented, charismatic young pilot who had had a smooth early career [including being allowed to train as a pilot even though he was an inch below the minimum height requirement] and got into a pair of six-month test pilot classes in 1962-3, from which astronauts for the USAF and NASA were often selected. Somebody in the Kennedy Administration [most accounts point to Robert Kennedy] leaned on the USAF to get a black pilot into the astronaut corps and these classes were the first step. In later years Dwight complained he had been viciously opposed by the school commandant, the legendary Chuck Yeager, who according to Dwight [based on third-hand hearsay] had instructed the other students to shun and isolate Dwight to drive him out. But not even the NY Times could find a single actual witness to this order, nor any actual actions to implement it [Dwight graduated on schedule]. Yeager vigorously denied ever saying it. The top two pilots of that class were picked by NASA for its 1963 astronaut group. Dwight indicated to the NY Times that his class standing wasn't so high but he had a legitimate excuse in that the White House wanted him to take three-day weekends all that year to fly around the country giving speeches, while all the other students stayed on base studying and flying [In Dwight's autobiography he blames Yeager for permitting him to go, as a mean trick to sabotage his studies]. According to the NY Times, quoting Dwight, selecting for the highest demonstrated skill levels wasn't really important anyway since the spacecraft was continuously under remote control from Houston and the astronaut was only a passive passenger anyway [which was most emphatically NOT true, something the NY Times failed to notice]. Nevertheless the NY Times implied a cause-and-effect by reporting that after JFK was killed, 'within a month Dwight's career at Edwards AFB was over" [and he was transferred out] when he wasn't picked as one of the candidates that NASA wanted. But that selection had already been made two months BEFORE the assassination, and Dwight's class at the school at Edwards had always been scheduled to end in December. At that point, all the graduates were assigned to test pilot duty in important positions [Dwight was sent to Wright-Patterson AFB as 'Deputy for Flight Test' for the US Bomber Command, hardly a punishment]. But the media representations, taking their cue from the NY Times, carried the fictitious version where Dwight had been all set for NASA astronaut selection and ultimately assignment to a subsequent moon landing mission until racists squashed his chances. It was reported that Deke Slayton, the chief of the astronaut office, "learned that some of the white astronaut candidates had refused to fly with Dwight, and Slayton pushed him out of the program" [no evidence this ever happened, or COULD have happened]. Wikipedia [and other websites] had referred to 'racist hostility from NASA astronauts' although Dwight never even got to NASA or as far as is known ever even visited the astronaut center in Houston. The NY Times story was full of other technical errors about spaceflight that indicated they had never even tried to fact-check the text with subject-matter experts. For example, it claimed he had an astounding 9000 hours of flight time, which was three times as much as any other pilot accepted by NASA in 1963, when he actually had about 2200 hrs when accepted at the test pilot school, a respectable amount at that point in his career. The opening paragraph presents the preposterous image of ‘gravitational forces’ ripping out a pilot’s eyeballs, when the misunderstood effect of “G forces” are acceleration stresses [measured in units of gravity, but not true gravity]. Clearly, nobody with the slightest familiarity with flying aircraft was ever giving the task of reviewing the manuscript before publication [the author’s bio shows no previous treatment of spaceflight, science, or any sort of aviation, and her Twitter account bio suggests she was actually a free-lancer]. Surveying the media coverage of this story, and the hundreds of reader comments posted that expressed outrage at 'white privilege' and 'whitesplaining' when confronted with verifiable facts contrary to the narrative, was extremely dismaying. But I didn't realize until reading news on the NY Times “1619” editorial policy that such reader reaction was evidently the only real goal of such [mis]reporting. And if respected institutions such as NASA, and respected heroes such as Chuck Yeager and Deke Slayton, need to be falsely smeared to accomplish this, seemingly that's acceptable to them. Sad, and shameful to the media outlets who promulgated these false accusations.
    1
  178. In this particular incident, can you imagine any rational reasons why Dwight might not have been selected by NASA? Class standing? Physical limits like height? Why would you expect the NY Times to give you the full and fair story considering their '1619 Project' editorial strategy?
    1
  179. We can start a GoFundMe account, I pledge $100.
    1
  180. @Ponga Pandit "The injustice cannot be undone." When NASA didn't pick him for the 1963 class, do you suppose they considered his test pilot class standing? Dwight himself admitted his ratings suffered because of all the time away from the school giving speeches for the White House.
    1
  181. @Ponga Pandit == Not convenient at all. It's how Dwight himself described it : "“The other students began to come around. … The real deal is that that cat is gonna be the only one of us that's gonna go to the moon. If the President has his way, he's the only one of us that's gonna go! So we better be his friend.’”
    1
  182. @Ponga Pandit -- "ostracized by... his boss." == Yeah, that's the famous story of Yeager ordering the other students to shun him. In fifty years nobody's found a single witness to that statement, or even a second hand witness ['I heard from a guy who heard him say it"]. Third-hand hearsay, totally unsubstantiated, would be laughed out of court, out of academic halls, out of professional newsrooms. Why is it now good enough for the Internet?
    1
  183. Has your view of NASA's Apollo program changed?
    1
  184. Sad indeed, if true. But based on third-hand gossip [Dwight didn't hear the comment, he was told that somebody else heard from another person that Yeager had said it]? How fair is that?
    1
  185.  @edwardhill9620  -- He wasn't going to weekend social events because the White House had him flying cross-country giving speeches from Friday through Sunday [which he complained was hurting his studies and flying practice, and he blamed Yeager for giving him permission to be off base so often, in order to sabotage his classwork]. He also said [URL if you want it] other students chummed up to him because they expected he had White House influence.
    1
  186.  @edwardhill9620  "What about a White House investigation that concluded Yeager said, in a group meeting with the other test pilots, what Dwight said he was told?" == I'd love to see that report. All we have is Dwight's claim there was such report, as far as I can determine. But there's more to learn. Ditto any correspondence or notes from the JFK presidential library concerning the push for a black astronaut -- so far, I've seen zilch. But I was able to FOIA his USAF assignments record -- he left Edwards in December 1963 on schedule when the class ended, it had zero connection with the JFK assassination.
    1
  187.  @edwardhill9620  Good references, thanks. "he says in his own biography he resented what he saw as White House interference in his operation." == He saw it accurately. It =WAS= political-inspired interference in his area of responsibility, associated with life-and-death decisions of personnel assignment.
    1
  188. ​ @edwardhill9620  -- Thanks for the detailed response. Dwight admits his class ranking wasn't top drawer, but he explicitly ascribes it to the three-day weekends he was asked to take by the White House making nationwide speaking tours during the training program, when the other students were doing extra flying and studying. He actually blames Yeager for allowing him to make those tours instead of confining him to base, to study [imagine the complaints if Yeager HAD done that -- he couldn't win, either way]. Dwight also claims that NASA's selection of the top 2 [or the dozen or so] students for the 1963 astronaut class [made two months before the JFK assassination] used an improper skill criterion since actually anybody could fly in space since the vehicle was always remote-controlled from Houston anyway, no piloting skills required [not true]. In the end, Dwight innocently wound up an expendable pawn in the White House political game [if picked, make black voters thank the Dems -- if NOT picked, make black voters hate the Republicans]. Dwight's own performance was skillful and honorable and he did serve as a shining inspiration to others like Robert Lawrence, Guy Bluford, Mae Jemison, and Charlie Bolden [who would up as NASA Administrator], and many other black astronauts too numerous for anybody on this comment thread even remembering their names. Dwight helped immensely to get us all to this point. He deserves all the honor -- and a free 'space tourist' hop next year -- that is flowing his way.
    1
  189.  @edwardhill9620  == It's from his autobiography. Let me look up the page citation, it's in my notes. Which other students took speaking tours every weekend? Is that just an assumption of yours or is there a public record supporting it?
    1
  190.  @edwardhill9620  -- Quick response, from NY Times last July: Emily Ludolph: “First of all, there’s purely logistics. He’s off doing all of these tours all weekend, but he’s still got to come back and do his flight exams on Monday just like all of his peers who have been studying all weekend for them do. "
    1
  191. If true. Where are any witnesses to the reported comments by Yeager?
    1
  192. The new Smithsonian program 'Black in Space' pays well-deserved tribute to the African-American pioneers of the space program, and to NASA which enabled such pioneering by its own energetic measures in its workforce and in the often reluctant surrounding communities. Some minor factual quibbles suggest the producers were focused on the big picture and didn’t allocate sufficient attention to fastidious fact-checking [like promoting the program by calling astronaut candidate Ed Dwight ‘an ace combat pilot’]. My main ‘big picture’ disagreement is the concept that there was a deliberate ‘race’ to get minorities into space, or even should have been. The Soviets ran with the propaganda strategy of pre-empting spectacular stunts based on knowledge of existing US plans, starting with the ‘woman-in-space’ one-off mission in 1963 and then a new sequence of pre-emptive stunts based on NASA’s announced plans for the new Space Shuttle crew selection in 1977 [to involve women and minorities and international partners]. So another Russian woman was launched, and when a plan for an American woman’s spacewalk was announced by NASA, suddenly the Soviets made one lasting five minutes longer than NASA’s disclosed plan. The ‘one-each’ flights by Soviet bloc nations also began as the Space Shuttle was gearing up for missions, and the gimmicky nature of those missions was demonstrated by the second group being launched in alphabetical order of country. As soon as it was announced in Moscow that Cuba was included on that roster, the opportunity to fly a black pilot was recognized by US space experts and predicted in print three years before it actually happened, since the Soviet go-for-the-gimmick strategy had been so openly followed for many years, with great success among impressionable Westerners who never noticed that each feat was usually done just once and then the barriers dropped back down again. That’s the major difference between Russian and American approaches and the US side deserves a lot more credit for its methodical and skill-based approach and the permanent openings it created. The nasty racism-accusation about Chuck Yeager needs particular attention, even though Smithsonian curator Smithsonian curator Cathleen Lewis candidly and correctly was seen to say: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Ed Dwight’s career. And historians have searched for evidence and haven’t found it.” Uncorroborated third-hand hearsay has no place in jurisprudence or journalism, and in my view its inclusion here was both unfair and cynically pandering for contemporary political motives. There is no first or even second hand corroboration of the shunning command, and no indication it was even followed. Instead, Dwight’s training at Edwards AFB was inadvertently but seriously hindered by White House demands he take three-day weekends traveling the country giving speeches [while other student spent that time studying and flying] and his own attitude at the school could have been harmfully influenced by White House assurances he was a shoo-in for astronaut selection and didn’t really need to get high ratings from instructors [he graduated 8th out of 16, and NASA only picked #1 and #2]. At 5' 03" he was also several inches too short to see out the Lunar Module windows where the pilots stood while flying it down onto and then back up from the moon. Dwight’s honorable role as a space program pioneer was to inspire future black pilots and scientists, which parallels the role of Lt. Dayton Ragland, the black pilot from the Korean War whose newspaper photo Dwight vividly recalls had sparked his own passion for aviation. That’s more than enough valid reason for recognition and gratitude to him. Other news media coverage included different factual flaws. Russell Contreras’s AP story, very widely reprinted, at first erroneously claimed that “U.S. Air Force officer Robert Henry Lawrence Jr. was chosen. NASA selected the Chicago-born Lawrence as the first African American astronaut, and he may have made it to the moon.” A very few subsequent reprints accurately corrected ‘NASA’ to ‘US Air Force’ but left in the false ‘may have made it to the moon’, untrue since the USAF astronauts were only transferred to NASA in 1969 after all the Apollo crewmen had already been trained and assigned. Other egregious factual errors in recent press stories include the spurious claim first seen in the NY Times last July that Dwight had an astounding 9000 flight hours [he had 2200, a respectable but not outstanding amount].
    1
  193. Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” So why the parade of nasty comments here?
    1
  194. Do you suppose the NASA selection board paid attention to the awkward fact he was three inches below the minimum height design for the Lunar Module? He was 5'3", the shortest pilots that could fly the LM were 5'6". Why is this fact ignored and omitted by the grievance-fanning industry?
    1
  195.  @imhuemankeepURcolorsforcrayons -- "But don’t state that someone’s lying because you don’t like what they have to say" === Please don't accuse me of accusing that anybody was lying, by simply asking for a direct witness to the alleged quotation which accuses Yeager of racism. I'm sorry that such a reasonable approach to historical verification can appear to be a white-black issue.
    1
  196.  @neghiethervil5606  -- Please teach me how to acquire the insight to determine that in a few minutes of video, I sure could use that skill. We all could. Meanwhile, I guess you concede there aren't any witnesses at all to the Yeager comment -- which Dwight just repeated the third-hand rumor about. .
    1
  197. ​ Matshidiso Sekgampu  == Thanks for taking the time for an excellent response. I know perfectly well that general situation, I was living in that era. Please don't generalize me or anybody. This specific historical event, the subject of THIS video, was my focus. As a historian I wish there were actual witnesses to the rumored Yeager comment. I don't doubt Dwight recalled the version he heard correctly -- but was the double hearsay version originally accurate?
    1
  198.  Matshidiso Sekgampu  -- As quickly as I can, when I can find it. Can you repeat it for me so we can be sure my bot detects it and flags it for me?
    1
  199. ​@LetsPlayInFire "i feel like you did ask that in a baiting way though" == Thanks for the constructive observation. As a historian of space flight I saw that question as a legitimate one and I do appreciate the sensitivity of its apparently confrontational nature, especially in light of the scattered nasty responses from other drive-by snipers. Can you suggest a softer way to word it, in the future?
    1
  200. ​ @Sveltdre  "Let me guess, clean bill of health, no racism to claim?" -- Guesses based on personal biases usually turn out wrong, and yours has. In a deep-search records check, I found that my ancestor John Reed in Massachusetts in the mid-1700s, owned two slaves [which the document mentioned because he treated them humanely, scant comfort]. My great-grandfather Gottlieb Grams fought and bled with the 54th New York at Gettysburg, and family oral tradition includes his words of pride at freeing the slaves. We all have dark and light chapters, we need to try to live up to the brighter ones.
    1
  201.  Matshidiso Sekgampu  -- Re BEZBZ1's question, I searched this thread and couldn't find it, would you paraphrase it for me, please?
    1
  202.  @luv4ever101  -- You were perfectly clear. And BTW, no problem with ALL CAPS for such messages.
    1
  203.  @luv4ever101  -- OK.
    1
  204.  @jahadom1885  -- I've tried and failed. Please help me. Last July’s PBS “Chasing the Moon” three-parter had a sloppy edit job on Frank Borman comments [Apollo-8 commander, and developer of the Aerospace Research Pilot course Dwight was in] in a long quote on the moon race with Russia, interspersed with Ed Dwight's racism complaint about Chuck Yeager, making it sound like Borman was corroborating Dwight's original allegation -- if you didn't listen to the voices carefully. Here’s the program: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/chasing-moon/?fbclid=IwAR0uVOT8CLoDLl8kjWdkb6q9Nt9HZ5TSKd96Xj11HoWE_cdqImqAjyj1_7w part 1 beginning at 1:17:46. It turns out that PBS for some reason put Dwight’s own recorded accusation right in the middle of a long clip of Borman’s recollections, even though their voices sound pretty similar, enough to have misled many listeners. But PBS’s own transcript of the program [it’s online near that original URL] clearly identifies the speaker of the Yeager story as Dwight, who still remains the only source of the quote ever found so far [and only at third hand]. I don’t doubt Dwight recalled the hearsay he heard accurately, but how about the other unknown retellers of the original gossip? Such a weak provenance of the claim would be enough to keep it out of any court of law, any professional historian’s book, any principled newspaper. Here’s a screen grab of the transcript and the correct attribution to Dwight: http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/xn5dfc138b.jpg
    1
  205.  @slimtouche  == Proving one is innocent of a nasty accusations seems a touch 'un-American' to me, especially when the entire basis of the accusation seems to be a third-hand piece of gossip. Here's first person testimony of Yeager's racial attitudes from a black pilot who flew with him http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
    1
  206.  @playablue  -- Where precisely did NASA reflect racism in its role in this affair?
    1
  207. No question it was an ordeal on him, but he was as much [or more] a victim of cynical White House electioneering manipulation as of non-existent ''astronaut racism'' [as Wikipedia and contemporary political exploiters called it].
    1
  208. "His footprints cannot be found on the moon. " -- Might the fact that he was three inches shorter than the minimum design height for Apollo LM pilots, have something to do with that?
    1
  209. Press reports won't tell you the full story, including potential non-racial reasons why NASA chose other pilots. But his presence in the two USAF test pilot schools in 1962-3 inspired a wave of follow-on fully-qualified black pilots such as Robert Lawrence, picked for USAF astronaut status in 1967, and others who became shuttle astronauts. Some died alongside their white colleagues on fatal missions [their names deserve special honor, too], and one became NASA Administrator who always honored Dwight for being his initial inspiration. We got where we are today because of pioneers such as Dwight, who deserve all the honor they earned.
    1
  210. Were there possibly legitimate reasons NASA didn't pick him?
    1
  211. -- So where are ANY first or second hand witnesses to this alleged comment?
    1
  212. What exactly do you think NASA did wrong?
    1
  213. We need verifiable facts first. Where are any witnesses to the reported comments by Yeager?
    1
  214. Precisely. He inspired a follow-generation of black astronauts who fully joined into the triumphs and tragedies of space exploration. Worth all gratitude and honor from all earthmen.
    1
  215. NASA didn't pick him for the 1963 astronaut class. Might there have been any non-racial reasons?
    1
  216. Why not start a fund to buy him a ticket on a Virgin Galactic or Bezos spaceship flight next year, or even petition them to offer him free ticket as a publicity stunt? I'm good for a $100 pledge, let's get this rolling.
    1
  217. What kind of Yeager stories did you hear?
    1
  218. Has your view of NASA's Apollo program changed?
    1
  219.  @TheWeirdoChannel100  - Thanks for responding. It seemed to me that the 'Dwight narrative' might reflect badly on NASA, which I don't think would be fair. While in the USAF "Aerospace Research Test Pilot" school [NOT an 'astronaut school'] Dwight came up before the NASA 'Group 3' astronaut review board in 3rdQ 1963, the top 2 students [of ~15] were picked by NASA [Dave Scott and Ted Freeman]. Dwight admits his evaluation scores weren't that high due to all the weekends away that the White House demanded he do speaking tours stead of studying / practicing. He thought he deserved a pass on his lower grades because the White House wanted him picked no matter what, for symbolic reasons, and because he insisted top-skill test pilots weren't needed anyway since the capsules were continuously remotely-controlled from Houston anyway [which wasn't actually accurate]. The class ended as scheduled in December and the students dispersed to test pilot related assignments, as always planned.
    1
  220. If true.
    1
  221. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  222. Where are any real witnesses to his alleged nasty comment? A guy says that another guy said that another guy said HE said such-and-such isn't persuasive in a court of law... or common sense, seems to me.
    1
  223. If you found out thisstory was deliberate manipulation of dubious rumors, not actual history, would you also be a little peeved to have been played?
    1
  224. Why not start a fund to buy him a ticket on a Virgin Galactic or Bezos spaceship flight next year, or even petition them to offer him free ticket as a publicity stunt? I'm good for a $100 pledge, let's get this rolling.
    1
  225. Dwight's presence in the test pilot school was an inspiration for many black pilots to follow his lead, and one of them, Charles Bolden, became NASA Director after serving as an astronaut. Dwight's own studies at the test pilot school in 1963 were hampered mostly by the White House demand he take three-day-weekends off traveling the country on lecture tours, which he admits was a significant distraction from his studies. He never disputed that his class standing suffered from that distraction. As for the claimed comment by Yeager, Dwight says he heard it from a fellow student who said he heard it from an instructor who said he heard it from Yeager [who denies making it] -- the kind of multi-hand hearsay that would never be allowed in court or in a principled newspaper], nobody seems to have found any first or second hand witnesses, and Dwight went on to graduate with his classmates before getting a major test pilot leadership command in his original military branch. He set a sky-high standard that motivated many follow-on black pilots to strive to excel and surpass, so we're all grateful for his service and his post-service cultural contributions.
    1
  226. The poor guy was thrown into the public spotlight for JFK' political advantages, and I don't doubt he was assured by the White House that they would get him selected. And he makes it clear that the publicity campaigns they scheduled him on did significantly distract from his studies and flight time [in his autobiography he blames his lower ratings on Yeager for giving permission to take most weekends off, supposedly with the malicious intent of having those trips lower his performance, which he admits they did]. He played an honorable role as an inspiration to the next generation, but that seems poor consolation for his dashed hopes
    1
  227. It's super sad how easily people can be tricked into believing that against all the evidence.
    1
  228. What did NASA do wrong, exactly?
    1
  229. [message garbled?]
    1
  230. == So why would you believe it?
    1
  231. Where's the evidence for NASA racial bias? While in the USAF "Aerospace Research Test Pilot" school [NOT an 'astronaut school'] Dwight came up before the NASA 'Group 3' astronaut review board in 3rdQ 1963, the top 2 students [of ~15] were picked by NASA [Dave Scott and Ted Freeman]. Dwight admits his evaluation scores weren't that high due to all the weekends away that the White House demanded he do speaking tours stead of studying / practicing. He thought he deserved a pass on his lower grades because the White House wanted him picked no matter what, for symbolic reasons, and because he insisted top-skill test pilots weren't needed anyway since the capsules were continuously remotely-controlled from Houston anyway [which wasn't actually accurate]. The class ended as scheduled in December and the students dispersed to test pilot related assignments, as always planned.
    1
  232. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  233.  @jaedynnnn  -- Thanks. Anything to make us all appreciate that struggle [and the participation of people of good well of all races] better seems proper to me. Exact incidents and context sometimes get garbled, but the overall picture Is still as awful as it ought to look.
    1
  234. According to what verifiable historical source, please? What about his height?
    1
  235. ​ @itsme7819  == "the source is the man speaking himself." == Not the 'source'. Dwight said he heard it from a student who said he'd heard it from an instructor who said he'd heard it from Yeager. I don't doubt Dwight's account of what he personally heard. But any court of law or ethical scholar or competent journalist wouldn't TOUCH a third-hand hearsay allegation without more direct sourcing.
    1
  236.  @itsme7819  -- I'm a big fan of jokes, even irreverent ones, but this narrative has encouraged more toxic inter-racial attitudes to a daunting degree so I'd rather see it treated seriously, not emotionally as the purveyors of the story clearly intend by their delivery style.
    1
  237.  @imblue9839  -- If you can't supply the name of a real witness to Yeager's alleged comment, just admit it, don't cover your inability to do so with personal attacks of your own. It might really undermine your credibility among readers.
    1
  238. You're kidding, right?
    1
  239. Has your view of NASA's Apollo program changed?
    1
  240.  @spacecatboy2962  -- How about you read what a black pilot wrote about his service with Yeager? : http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
    1
  241.  @StaySqueezy12  -- OK, you're gonna judge him by the color of his skin, go right ahead. But don't forget the entire reason West Virginia is a state -- they seceded from confederate Richmond to fight on the Federal side of the Civil War.
    1
  242. 'Facts' aren't part of this video's message to voters.
    1
  243. - How? At the school, Dwight made no secret of his attitude that the President personally wanted him picked as an astronaut. On weekends when all other students were doing practice flying and studying and make-up labs, Dwight was on commercial flights all over the country giving speeches on behalf of the White House. Dwight's exact words in an interview: " [other students said to themselves] . The real deal is that that cat is gonna be the only one of us that's gonna go to the moon. If the President has his way, he's the only one of us that's gonna go! So we better be his friend.’” https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=astronaut%20ed%20dwight&epa=SEARCH_BOX
    1
  244.  @purplehaze2250  -- Thanks for explaining. The issue that seemed to bother Yeager was that the justifiable criteria that were performance-related were to be set aside. Dwight was caught in the middle, with White House demands for national speaking tours while he was still a Test Pilot School student., which he admits did lower his performance scores relative to the other students. And another factor -- which I think you'll notice was totally omitted in recent press coverage -- was that he happened to be three inches too short to safely fly the Apollo Lunar Module [where the crew flew it standing up while looking out a small face-level window, and used ceiling-mounted navigation instruments]. Sure, he could have used a stool, but what sort of public image would that have portrayed? Soon after he was passed over by NASA, another black pilot, Robert Lawrence, passed all the criteria and was formally selected as an astronaut for the USAF. Besides, Dwight has recently made it clear he is NOT blaming Yeager. Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 Also: Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58 Maybe the issue is less black-and-white than the media seems to want to make it look? PS -- I was in uniform in those days, here's me [the tall guy] with my AF officer candidate class and astronaut Gordon Cooper in Feb 1963. http://www.jamesoberg.com/image/cooper-oberg-feb-1963.jpg
    1
  245. Science Fiction Theatre?
    1
  246. Interesting idea. If Americans and Russians could end the Cold War by shaking hands in space, why can't some 'space tourist' company send Dwight and Yeager into space together, to shake hands! I'm good for $100 to 'gofundme'. If they're too old, how about they sit together to watch the launch carrying a grandkid of each.
    1
  247.  Dominic Thian  - He described the weekend travels in the PBS 'Chasing the Moon' program last summer. Also, the deeply-flawed NY Times story on him last July had more quotes from him. I also FOIA'ed his USAF assignments records, ask me more at kosmograd@yahoo.com
    1
  248. 1619 Project?
    1
  249. And once done a single time as an impress-the-audience stunt, not needed again. The next Russian woman was launched to upstage a planned US woman-astronaut mission, and a spacewalk. It hasn't happened again in years.
    1
  250. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  251. "Cheated"? He was a candidate. Like two hundred other guys. He admits himself that his class standing was middling, while just the top two got picked by NASA. He thought the White House would get him picked anyway because his concept of an astronaut was somebody looking out the window while the spaceship is remote-controlled from Houston, so he spent almost half his time in the school, away giving speeches for the White House. He couldn't have flown the lunar module anyway, he was three inches shorter than the minimum height it was designed for. His candidacy inspired follow-on black pilots and scientists who DID make the grade within a few years [Robert Lawrence, for example].
    1
  252. = "crazy how once kennedy was assasinated..they took him off the program " -- The recorded chronology doesn't support that cause-and-effect. His aerospace research test pilot course ended exactly as always scheduled in December 1963. NASA had picked the top two men from the dozen or so class students, as astronauts, in September. Dwight acknowledged he wasn't rated that highly, his reasonable excuse was all the weekends he spent away from school when the White House had arranged nationwide speaking tours. Kennedy wasn't killed until two months AFTER the NASA selection. Passing the school program qualified all the students for top test pilot jobs [few became astronauts] and he got one, Director of Flight Test Operations for the US Bomber Command at Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio. Isn't that what happened?
    1
  253. So what happened to this guy 55 years ago that should affect this year's election?
    1
  254.  @dertbom  -- Thanks for replying. I'm always looking for help. It's why I asked. As a historian of space flight, I'm wondering what specific bad choices NASA made in 1963 that are so important to be remarkable in 2020.
    1
  255.  @dertbom  -- Thanks for the details. Since the two women on the space station just finished their third spacewalk together [replacing some external battery packs], having the right-sized spacesuits was never the problem. The media flap last year was bogus, sparked by the need for a fast repair job and the week or so needed to reconfigure a second suit to fit the taller woman [Ann McClain] who had stretched a bit after a few months in space and felt the new sizing would be more efficient, but the assigned task couldn't wait so a guy went in her place that time -- but as I said, she made more spacewalks. She's back on Earth but was replaced by another woman, who took part in the third both-women walk just a few days ago. This raises the issue that concerns me as a retired space program veteran -- media passion to find political-motivated whines about anything, including spaceflight, to appeal to their customer base.
    1
  256.  @dertbom  'Ignorance' is the wrong word to use, implying shirked responsibility [or deliberate avoidance] to find out stuff -- definitely not your problem. 'Unfamiliarity' seems a more proper term, since 'rocket science' really is 'unearthly' and weird-looking for people in ordinary life. 'Unfamiliarity' is my own status in many aspects of modern culture, as I am starkly reminded every time I watch 'Jeopardy' on TV!
    1
  257. Re Captain Dwight: NASA never spent a dime on him, he was in the Air Force taking two back-to-back six-month courses in aerospace test piloting. He finished them both and got assigned as chief of test piloting for the branch he' served in, the US Bomber Command. In later years Dwight complained he had been viciously opposed by the school commandant, the legendary Chuck Yeager, who according to Dwight [based on third-hand hearsay] had instructed the other students to shun and isolate Dwight to drive him out. But not even the NY Times could find a single actual witness to this order, nor any actual actions to implement it [Dwight graduated on schedule]. Yeager vigorously denied ever saying it, and black pilots who actually flew with him vigorously denied he'd shown any indications of racial bias -- want a link?]. The top two pilots of that test pilot [NOT 'astronaut'] class were picked by NASA for its own 1963 astronaut group. Dwight indicated to the NY Times that his class standing wasn't so high but he thought he had a legitimate excuse in that the White House wanted him to take three-day weekends all that year to fly around the country giving speeches, while all the other students stayed on base studying and flying [In Dwight's autobiography he blames Yeager for permitting him to go, as a mean trick to sabotage his studies]. According to the NY Times, quoting Dwight, selecting for the highest demonstrated flying skill levels wasn't really important anyway since the spacecraft was continuously under remote control from Houston and the astronaut was only a passive passenger anyway [which was most emphatically NOT true, something the NY Times failed to notice]. Nevertheless the NY Times implied a cause-and-effect by reporting that after JFK was killed, 'within a month Dwight's career at Edwards AFB was over" [and he was transferred out] when he wasn't picked as one of the candidates that NASA wanted. But that selection had already been made two months BEFORE the assassination, and Dwight's class at the school at Edwards had always been scheduled to end in December. At that point, all the graduates were assigned to test pilot duty in important positions [Dwight was sent to Wright-Patterson AFB as 'Deputy for Flight Test' for the US Bomber Command, hardly a punishment]. So there's serious political spinning going on in this sad story, too, I'm afraid.
    1
  258.  @dertbom  -- Whether teasing or making fun, or sincerely, people educate me in the best ways to explain some really weird 'rocket science'.... stuff it took me a long time to catch on to. It makes sense, but it really is 'unearthly'. And we bring all our human foibles up there with us [grin].
    1
  259.  @itarH  -- Dwight was a fine pilot but his USAF test pilot studies were sabotaged by the White House demands for three-day-weekend cross-oountry speaking tours while the other students studied and practiced. So he wound up 8th in his class of 16, and only the top 2 were picked for the 1963 NASA class [a month before the JFK assassination]. NASA was never going to pick him anyway, probably because first he was three inches too short to safely fly the Apollo Lunar Module, and second because he made no secret of his philosophy that pilot skill wasn't needed since the spacecraft were all remote controlled from Houston anyway [but they weren't]. No white pilot of that height and that attitude came anywhere near even interviewing in Houston, much less being picked.
    1
  260. NASA didn't pick him for the 1963 astronaut class. Might there have been any non-racial reasons?
    1
  261.  @anthonygray2671  - Thanks for your service. Here's a photo of me [the tall geek] as an officer cadet in Feb 1963 with fellow cadets and astronaut Gordon Cooper. I was there too, and don't dispute your accurate recollections of genuine experiences. The question remains -- most candidates NASA considered were not selected, for a wide variety of rational reasons. Dwight was ranked 8th in his test pilot class of 16, the top 2 guys were picked by NASA. Dwight does not dispute the fairness of that ranking, with the reasonable excuse that his performance suffered because the White House required him to spend weekends flying to speeches all over the country while the other guys were studying and practicing. He claimed NASA should have given him a break. In addition, at 5'03" he was three inches shorter than the minimum height required to safely fly the Apollo lunar module, where the pilots actually stood up looking through a tiny window in front of them and used ceiling mounted nav optics. http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/ol5e77b524.jpg
    1
  262. So if NASA didn't pick him as an astronaut in 1963, they did him wrong? I can understand his disappointment, but why blame NASA?
    1
  263. No argument, in tragedies both known and unknown -- but this might not be one of those cases. The narrative may have far outran the original facts.
    1
  264.  @LH-mn3cc  == He has made it clear that he felt the White House would see to it that he was picked as an astronaut no matter what class standing he earned, and he spent three-day weekends touring the country giving speeches instead of studying and flying. like all the other students did. Also, he said quite clearly that since the other students assumed he was a certain pick for astronaut, many actually sucked up to him to earn his favor. Do you want the links to those quotes? By the way, do you suppose NASA also noticed he was three inches too short to safely fly the Apollo Lunar Module? .
    1
  265. Need corroboration. NASA didn't pick him for the 1963 astronaut class. Might there have been any non-racial reasons?
    1
  266.  @marklion315  -- Tune down your outrage dial, please. Where is disagreeing or asking for evidence the same as 'attacking'? As to the journalist's insensitively-worded question, why don't you take it up with him or his employer, what does it have to do with NASA? And by the way here's the view of a black pilot colleague of Yeager's: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
    1
  267.  @passion4posh  -- So track down that newsman and make him apologize. What did NASA have to do with any of this outrage?
    1
  268.  @passion4posh  -- Back up a bit. So where's there any first or second hand witness evidence Yeager even made that nasty comment?
    1
  269. What space program heroes blocked him due to prejudice? First-hand evidence, please, not third-hand hearsay.
    1
  270.  @5pctLowBattery  == What space program heroes blocked him due to prejudice? First-hand evidence, please, not third-hand hearsay.
    1
  271. The anti-Dwight racism charge against Yeager is pretty shaky on historical grounds, want to see some other assessments -- including one from Dwight himself?
    1
  272. We her lots of things on the Internet, they all need double-checking. How about these comments: That was a serious accusation and the historical support for it is mighty shaky. Here's some VERIFIABLE testimony with a starkly different view: Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58 Here's a Yeager profile by a black pilot who flew with him: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
    1
  273.  @jusliving7977  == "I'll take Dwight at his word. He said Yeager encouraged an environment conducive to his demise. He (Yeager) instructed other candidates to ostracize Dwight." == Well, that's the crux of the historical debate, did Yeager actually make such an order and was it carried out? Dwight says he heard that from a fellow student who said he'd heard it from an instructor who said he'd heard it from Yeager. Dwight himself said the other students actually kissed up to him because they figured he had White House sponsors [link available]. What about these quotes [check the links]? Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58
    1
  274.  @jusliving7977  == " I'll take Dwight at his word" == I don't doubt he heard the third-hand rumor. How accurate it was remains an open question, and in context of other descriptions, pretty dubious. And yes, Yeager verbally bullied every other student to quit if they didn't have full commitment, he was not a huggy-feely commander.
    1
  275. Don't you mean "Dwight"?
    1
  276. You march on arm-in-arm with allies of all colors. Re the Dwight story, why do you suppose the NY Times is pushing the racism-resentment angle this electoral season? Where exactly did 'racism' derail Dwight's supposedly deserved path into space?
    1
  277. Uh, what did NASA have to do with this?
    1
  278. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  279. There's more to the NASA angle that the NY Times didn't report. Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58
    1
  280. Has your view of NASA's Apollo program changed?
    1
  281. Aside from third-hand hearsay, where's any evidence [like, from a witness] he ever said that?
    1
  282.  @ArchFundy  -- But it's NOT just "Mr. Dwight's story", it's also the story of the other guys who one-by-one relayed oral versions of it TO him. Without any corroboration, isn't there room for an element of doubt in THEM?
    1
  283. What should NASA have done differently?
    1
  284.  @LucDevine  == Why do you think they didn't?
    1
  285.  @LucDevine == Dwight came up before the NASA 'Group 3' astronaut review board in 3rdQ 1963, the top 2 students [of ~15] were picked by NASA. Dwight admits his evaluation scores weren't that high due to all the weekends away that the White House demanded he do speaking tours stead of studying / practicing. He thought he deserved a pass on his lower grades because the White House wanted him picked no matter what, for symbolic reasons, and because he insisted top-skill test pilots weren't needed anyway since the capsules were continuously remotely-controlled from Houston anyway [which wasn't actually accurate]. The class ended as scheduled in December and the students dispersed to test pilot related assignments, as always planned.
    1
  286.  @LucDevine  == Emily Ludolph: “First of all, there’s purely logistics. He’s off doing all of these tours all weekend, but he’s still got to come back and do his flight exams on Monday just like all of his peers who have been studying all weekend for them do. …" https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/21/podcasts/the-daily/moon-black-astronaut-ed-dwight.html?showTranscript=1
    1
  287.  @LucDevine  -- Your turn. What's your source for the Yeager 'shun him' comment? A real witness, not third-hand hearsay, please.
    1
  288.  @LucDevine  = "Yeager knew that Dwight couldn't ignore a decree from the White house to attend those engagements so he used it to drum him out of the program."== That was exactly Dwight's rationalization in his autobiography. He blames Yeager for fiendishly PERMITTING him to leave base over the weekends for the White House speeches. Of course, applying the 'flip-side rule' [what would the complaint have been if the OPPOSITE had happened?] easily conjures up Dwight's supporters complaining he was being muzzled. But back to the thrust of my question -- any direct or even indirect witnesses to the specific instruction from Yeager to have the other students shun him socially. You seem to agree there really IS no such witness, but the comment can be inferred from subsequent actions, am I understanding you correctly?
    1
  289.  @LucDevine  As for being actually shunned, see https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=astronaut%20ed%20dwight&epa=SEARCH_BOX “The other students began to come around. 'Cause they figured out, ‘Say wait a minute now. They tell us to stay away from this cat. The real deal is that that cat is gonna be the only one of us that's gonna go to the moon. If the President has his way, he's the only one of us that's gonna go! So we better be his friend.’”
    1
  290.  @LucDevine  - "Dwight is the witness Jim." == He heard a story from a guy who said he heard it from another guy who said he'd heard it from Yeager. Is that what 'witness' really means? Would such a 'witness' ever be allowed to provide evidence in a trial, or to a historian or journalist? .Emmett Hatch [a black pilot who flew with him] was a direct witness to Yeager's racial attitudes, here is HIS testimony: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
    1
  291.  @LucDevine  -- I'm looking for real evidence in a very culturally incendiary meme, as a historian. … in exactly the threads where strong believers congregate and engage in productive debate [and thank you for doing so]. As for journalists, the original NY Times story last July was shamefully sloppy, which was regrettable. Probably the worst howler there was endorsement of Dwight's erroneous assertion that test piloting skill and experience really wasn't relevant to astronaut selection, since the capsules were fully remote-controlled from Houston anyway, so the passengers could easily have been picked for symbolic reasons, not technical capabilities. So... are there no direct witness accounts of the third-hand hearsay about Yeager's shunning advice? I'm still looking -- perhaps the most reasonable theory is he made same comment of tolerating Dwight until the course finished nd then he'd be gone. The one-on-one in-your-face suggestions of quitting, BTW, was pretty standard with Yeager's approach to every student, and it's the same in Navy SEAL training. Hand-holding and soothing and participation trophies may be what kids want today, but it's not good prep for professions with death peering over your shoulder.
    1
  292.  @LucDevine  -- Sticking to THIS video's subject, to summarize my view: While in the USAF "Aerospace Research Test Pilot" school [NOT an 'astronaut school'] Dwight came up before the NASA 'Group 3' astronaut review board in 3rdQ 1963, the top 2 students [of ~15] were picked by NASA [Dave Scott and Ted Freeman]. Dwight admits his evaluation scores weren't that high due to all the weekends away that the White House demanded he do speaking tours stead of studying / practicing. He thought he deserved a pass on his lower grades because the White House wanted him picked no matter what, for symbolic reasons, and because he insisted top-skill test pilots weren't needed anyway since the capsules were continuously remotely-controlled from Houston anyway [which wasn't actually accurate]. The class ended as scheduled in December and the students dispersed to test pilot related assignments, as always planned. Show less
    1
  293. I'm curious, folks -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  294. WTF did NASA have to do with any of this?
    1
  295. Press reports won't tell you the full story, including potential non-racial reasons why NASA chose other pilots. But his presence in the two USAF test pilot schools in 1962-3 inspired a wave of follow-on fully-qualified black pilots such as Robert Lawrence, picked for USAF astronaut status in 1967, and others who became shuttle astronauts. Some died alongside their white colleagues on fatal missions [their names deserve special honor, too], and one became NASA Administrator who always honored Dwight for being his initial inspiration. We got where we are today because of pioneers such as Dwight, who deserve all the honor they earned.
    1
  296. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
    1
  297.  @michaelsamuel9917  -- That's a reasonable speculation. Dwight says he actually WASN'T ostracized, but that students who knew he was the White House darling sucked u to him to piggyback on his privileged status. And he graduated on time, and got a great assignment fitting the training he'd received, as Director of Flight Test Operations for the US Bomber Command.
    1
  298.  @The1TheyCallFoo313  - Thanks, 'silly' is the kindest thing I've been called on this debate [grin]. I was a serving USAF cadet in that same period so I had some exposure to the evolving culture. It still would be nice if there was some way to tell if the third-hand account he recalls hearing got distorted in the multiple retellings. Dwight says he actually WASN'T ostracized, but that students who knew he was the 'White House darling' sucked up to him to piggyback on his privileged status. And he graduated on time, and got a great assignment fitting the training he'd received, as Director of Flight Test Operations for the US Bomber Command. Dwight's own studies at the test pilot school in 1963 were hampered mostly by the White House demand he take three-day-weekends off traveling the country on lecture tours, which he admits was a significant distraction from his studies. He never disputed that his class standing suffered from that distraction.
    1
  299.  @aimmortalslegacy2189 = "I read this comment several times" -- I've posted several comments here, please be more specific. Looks like this could be a productive conversation. Thank you.
    1
  300.  @aimmortalslegacy2189  -- I was trying to say that the popular culture in 1963 was quite as awful as examples indicated. But it was spotty, and in many areas, starting to improve. To 'generalize would have been to say that the alleged Yeager quote was legit because that's what all white people were saying, is what I have questioned. As for the specific case of Yeager, here's a profile by black pilot who flew with him http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
    1
  301.  @slimtouche  "Is there any guarantee Yeager isn't racist??" == Sad we have to resort to such rationalizations to preserve out own points of view. The basis for the accusations of racism that I've heard seem based on harsh verbal behavior Yeager applied to all his students in the school, expressing doubt about their ability to get through, as a gimmick to spur them to greater efforts [and uncover those who wanted to rely on the 'pull' of their sponsors rather than their own skills]. .
    1
  302.  @slimtouche  - No intent to deflect, pose it again and let me tackle it again.
    1
  303.  @slimtouche == "you can't guarantee that Yeager never had a racist moment or phase then what's your point???" == The point is the baseless accusation that WITHOUT Yeager's alleged racism [which you seem to tacitly concede has no verifiable validation] Dwight would have been picked as an astronaut in 1963 and possibly been on an Apollo moon mission.
    1
  304.  @slimtouche  == OK, I will.
    1
  305. He inspired a follow-generation of black astronauts who fully joined into the triumphs and tragedies of space exploration. Worth all gratitude and honor from all earthmen.
    1
  306. If you just rely on the version in the NY Times, maybe you still don't know important parts of the whole story.
    1
  307. SicSem, somebody ELSE benefits politically from heightened inter-racial resentment as promoted by the NY Times '1619 Project', but accurate history is the loser. Yeager had nothing to do with 'astronaut applicants', it was a newly-established 'Aerospace Research Pilots" course follow-on for the standard USAF Test Pilot course [which Dwight had already completed]. Once the White House focused attention on him for get-out-the-vote purposes, he was obligated to leave the base for three-day-weekends doing nationwide speaking tours on behalf of the White House, and he made it clear that it was that time-away politically-imposed distraction that kept his ratings middling good, but not top drawer [and not any alleged career sabotage from Yeager, whose racist directive is only a third-hand hearsay without ANY primary or secondary witnesses]. The two top guys [Scott and Freeman] were picked by NASA in September 1963, and the class ended as scheduled in December with the remaining students disbursed to senior test pilot duties throughout the USAF [Dwight was named Director for Flight Test Operations at Wright-Patterson AFB, a senior assignment]. Kennedy's assassination in November had zero influence on the September selection OR on the long-scheduled December end of the training course. One additional factor NASA would have considered that is usually omitted in media accounts is that Dwight [at 5'3"] was 3" shorter than the design minimum piloting height for the Apollo Lunar Module [designed for 5th to 95th percentile male height for that time].
    1