Comments by "ootmaster1" (@ootmaster1) on "The Illusion of European Socialisms' Success" video.
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@Andy B Oh boy i like explaining this one
"what does race have to do with it? "
demographics are destiny
Especially if you define race as someone's skin color,
We arent, its j just a marker for difference that is easily visible to differentiate between groups
that's a social science talk and not at all in line with genetic knowledge.
Are you denying the existence of different groups of humans being genetically different? sounds pretty anti science
By looking at the data it's the culture that makes the difference,
Hmm, and where does that culture come from? AH the people that make up that specific location... so to speak if you change the people you change the culture?
any time you have ghetto culture where most kids grow up with a poor single parent, combined with low quality education, you'll get a larger percentage of deviants.
So look at which groups of people who are high single parent and you will see a trend. But then again we arent even allowed to talk about IQ...
"Add a drug war and a criminal system that does not rehabilitate criminals into productive people and it's a no brainer."
Right, so dont break the law and dont sell drugs? i mean im not disagreeing with you in the sense that the drug war is a failure and there are far too many laws... but you can go pretty far without going to jail if you dont act like an idiot///
"And yes, there are places with 100% white population where that happens, the world does not end where US borders do."
What? the US was a 95+% white country (IE of closely related european stock)since its inception up until 1965.
"The US media has brainwashed people into dividing themselves by skin color, the past government policies"
No, the US media has been brainwashing people into thinking that we can all get along and that everyone is the same, so they can get public support for flooding the country with cheap labor and infinite sources of internal conflict to further grow their power control and strength of enforcement
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@StofStuiver what? originally the US was 99% white as they were all from European origins...
You dont seem to understand.... if there are more people who take more than they pay into the system, it collapses... when you need to take more and more and more from those who can produce, they will be able to get less and less... i lose a third of my income every week.. i see none of it. i also pay taxes on the fuel i spend to go to work, i pay taxes on the food i eat to live, i pay taxes on the water i drink and bathe in, i pay taxes on the car i drive to work as well as taxes on all the fees, insurance, and taxes thereof that the state demands i pay. i pay taxes on the home i live in, i pay taxes on the land its on, i pay taxes on the utility bills, i even pay taxes when i die...
What do i get out of it?
endless foreign wars
endless immigration
stagnant and lowering wages
aotumation
poor roads
poor education
poor infrastructure
more and more welfare...
I dont want to pay more and i dont want more programs.... if they cant make it work after taking a third of most peoples income ( those who actually make enough to be taxes that is) then i dont want it...
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@StofStuiver
"So you are saying businesses will use cheapest labor?"
It is a matter of scale. small scale, you would see a better return in house, but in large scale its a little different. It all comes down to greed but its generally the larger businesses that end up being a problem again
Doesnt that apply in a region aswell? How about child laborers? And who is going to regulate it? Can businesses import laborers?
Well if you couldnt outsource without hefty penalties it would make it more cost effective to work inside the country, plus we already have the base understanding of preserving the environment and having just labor laws. If we stopped the endless waves of immigrants and actually removed the millions of people already here you might see some changes in overall business practices if you couldnt get away with undercutting local labor with cheap foreign labor
"Its a bit odd, bc i take a new direction and the first thing you do is regulate free trade."
nothing is ever " free" if there are no rules, it isnt a game to be played fairly, its a free for all.
"But youre still unwilling to see money flows up i take it. So i have to type an entire comparison to show it."
I am 20 yo.
My father was a succesful fisherman. I inhereted 2 fishing boats and a nice wad of capital. Impossible? No, i just skip a bit.
In my region there are 10 fishermen, 8 have 1 boat and 2 have 2 boats.
I am eager to expand. I have enough money to buy out 1, which i do. I still have a bit of capital left, but not enough to buy out another.
I have an uncle as captain on my 2nd boat. My dad already had that setup. We have an arrangement that works fine:
We deduct cost of operating that boat; crew, oil, repairs, etc. What is left is normally profit. He gets 40%. I take 60. The boat is already payed off.
I make a same arrangement for the 3rd boat with a cousin. This boat needs to be payed off. From the 60% i take, i calculated that i need to deduct 1/3 (20 % of total) to win my capital back in 10 years.
There are now 12 boats, of which 3 are mine.
I am a great fisherman, or i am very lucky, who knows. I tell my captains where to go fish. We are usually in the top 3 of fish caught.
My income compared to single boat fishermen is : 100% + 60% + 40% = 200%. I save a lot of money.
After 5 years i hear of one fisher with 2 boats that he wants out. He isnt doing well, so i make him an offer. I need to go to the bank to get some financing, but it is still profitable to me.
(Sounds like your father worked really hard to pass on something valuable to you, and you did well with it. would have been a shame if the government came in and took 45% of the cash in taxes)
.... time passes
I am now 45 years old. I own 9 of 12 boats. I have financing running on 4 boats still and im making a good amount of money. There is plenty of room to expand even more.
Im thinking about starting my own intermediary company (sort of a fish aution) to skip the middle man. Talk to the bank. Yes i can.
So i put a captain on my boat aswell and focus on running that business.
I do better than the intermediary that i used to sell my fish to, bc hey, i have the goods. They are trying all sorts of things, but they are too late. Its mine.
They go out of business. I didnt make friends, but who cares.
I force the remaining fishermen to work for me, or go sell their fish elsewhere. They eventually agree.
I am now 60 years old. Own all boats and the intermediary. No one even dares to start a new boat in this region.
skipping some time
I am now 85. All boats and the intermediary have been fully payed for. And i have millions in capital to throw around.
My son inherets the business. And he is going to expand even more. We can easily get the next region, who are all single boat captains.
How can you not see money always flows up???
I mean sounds great and all but what would you even do to prevent this? are you denying you worked hard to earn what you have? Did you not create wealth by doing a job better and more profitable? are you not employing others? wealth isnt always something stolen, it is also created. how much and what right does the government have to take it? as long as you arent over fishing the location to the point of scarcity i dont see what the problem is? Isnt the whole idea to give your future family more than your previous generations?
On a secondary point, most wealthy end up losing their wealth after 2 or 3 generations. Mostly stemming from not understanding the value of the money, and the work that went into creating this vast wealth, and it is usually mishandled and squandered. People who are given things dont know what its like to earn them. you respect things more when you have to earn/make/create things yourself so you take better care of them than you would if you were just handed everything.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-why-90-of-rich-people-squander-their-fortunes-2017-04-23
So how is your scenario inherently bad? what would you want changed about it? its not as if you are throwing out the native fishermen and hiring foreign labor at below market wages, or selling at a loss to undercut your competitors because you have deep pockets and they dont. And i still dont even understand how this is " always moving up" its not taking wealth from other people, its creating wealth from your own actions. I would not feel the need to overtly and horribly tax you or your hypothetical family as you pass it on.
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@StofStuiver As close to free as you can, within regional/countrywide limits of course.
To elaborate and try and get you to see what i mean, let me give you some personal examples.
I want to sell cars, well i cant sell more than X without the government stepping in and forcing me to pay for and buy licenses.
I want open a bar/arcade, dozens of permits, licenses, fees, regulation...
I simply want to sell things on ebay, i STILL have to pay the government
I want to simply earn a living, government takes a third of my income, and small percentages more every time i use my money.
How am i supposed to get ahead if the government keeps me down?
Seems to me that all these things dont seem to bother those who already have the money and resources needed or have the power to lobby, but keep the regular joe out of starting a business
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@StofStuiver
(condensed bits for ease of reading, its useful to try and articulate oneself to understand what and why the believe what they do)
what you are describing is the creation of a monopoly" > Which is the inevitable result of capitalism.
How? How does this come about? I bet it has something to do with government interference
" which usually government breaks up, but oops, the government is corrupt and loves bribes!" > Indeed. Which means they recognize the problem. And indeed, which they do not do enough.
What are you talking about? these super monopolies and international monoliths would never exist without government...
"But there is another problem, ..... A company does not keep a growing pot of gold. It reinvests, does research and pays out a profit. It pays this profit to its shareholders. And there is no anti-monopoly legislation against that.
Why would there be? that has nothing to do with a monopoly? and again, using profits to reinvest and grow isnt bad, and isnt required to be infinite at all... i dont know why you keep thinking that
"It is however... And it are these ppl, often through investment companies, that buy more companies, etc etc. > which leads to the accumulation of wealth (and resources) to an increasing smaller amount of people, while the rest of the people only lose. "
And how is this different than any other system ever? what you are describing is the nature of power.... wealth=resources=power doesnt matter what gaems you play
"And that is why you need a gov that 'taxes' these people. If with that money you reinject that into a capitalist (or other) economy, the money keeps flowing and it can be sustainable. But govs have not done that enough and are now indeed bought and payed for by these ppl, thus undermining all states. And only for their own benefit."
What does this have to do with the oppressive tax system we already have and the wasteful spending? the problem is government getting in the way of the people...
How is someone supposed to save for a house or save up for a business venture if every paycheck they get, the government takes a third? Good t hing the government controls everything.....
"Imo there should be a hard cap on what ppl can own"
Nope sorry, that is quite anti freedom
How many Bugatti veyrons does any one person need? And how many jets? Its become ridiculous.
And yet people get paid to build them, service them, use them... what is ridiculous? maybe we should stop paying actors and sports players so much money then? maybe we should stop supporting the people that do this shit? why do you feel the desire to control other people?
"I wasnt saying all of capitalism is bad. Which is where you seem to be steering me. No. It is good that ppl have an incentive, that they get rewarded for working hard. For making a greater effort than the next guy (who may be a lazy bum), for intellect and invention. All great and needed. That is not the argument i was making. I was only pointing at the inevitable result of capitalism, which also fails (unless you regulate it of course, which all countries do, but not in the right way/ not enough)"
Oh so you want to give government more authority over things? even though they themselves who are the ones creating these problems? its almost like government creates problems for it to solve at the cost of tax money.... weird, but yeah lets keep giving them more power and authority
"What i meant is that , if its not regulated as described above, it needs to grow to be sustainable."
No it doesnt? you have yet to explain this one to me...
"Because of those monopolies, above, accumulation would occur."
and this is because why? the government allows this to occur because it is in governments best interest
"This can be countered only in an unlimited resource situation ......... So there is no unlimited situation anymore. Which means capitalism cannot be anymore, unless it is regulated strongly. (getting the money back from the few and insert back in economy)"
Still having zero idea what you are talking about... you seem to assume that there is a maximum total amount of wealth that can be had... this is not true at all, and if we didnt unelected invisible hands in charge of currency.......
"Bc that is what the problem is. Again, i never said all of capitalism is bad. On the contrary."
Gov is the problem
"Which is a wise stance.
"
and if more people did this then we probably wouldnt be in the position we are in now.
"But you do pay for your wife and kids....And we do not refuse to pay for our social group. We just do it, bc we think it is also in our own interest and expect that they will do it for us, when we need it.
right... and heres the " but"
"Now, where the boundary of that social group is, will be subjective, but as ppl used to live, everywhere, in tribes of differing sizes, it was not abnormal to share with tribe members.
right...
"The problem arises when we are faced with either great poverty, which will result in a decreasing size of that social group we are willing to pay for. And when our group is polluted with non group members... (we allready covered that i think and agreed... i think?)
What? what the hell does this mean???
"This part was about your unwillingness to pay taxes. Which i understand, bc you do not see your 'countrymen' as members of your group. But if your countrymen would be members of your group, you would. So you are not against taxes (helping a collective, of which you are part of), but your problem is with the group. (which is not your prefered group)
"
No my problem is that millions of poor third worlders get to hop in, get pampered, given everything they need, loans, healthcare, and they pop out tons of kids, they all are now " citizens" and can collect more benefits... im tired of paying for bullshit... men pay more taxes on average than women, and the vast majority comes from white males. im tired of the entire world on my fucking back...
" Indeed. With the addition that Europe had 1 homogenous group per country and the US had 2 (ot counting indigenous ppl). The white Americans and the descendants of the American black slaves. And that was more than enough problems right there."
wish we sent them all back tbh... would have saved endless nightmares... but then again, it was all part of the plan
"It seems we are not far apart at all. And i was wondering why just now. Imo, from what i experienced with Americans, a lot react strongly on critique on capitalism."
Because the idea of capitalism isnt how you keep describing, and this always comes on the topic of more taxes or welfare or more social programs...
"Often i am immediately shoved in the communism corner, So i was wondering why. Is it included in Americans idea of capitalism that you oppose monopolies and it therefor goes without saying?"
Because this country was created and became what it was by the free enterprise of the individuals who made up the country. then the government kept getting involved and things would keep getting worse
"And then, what is the stance as you see it, on ppl that are filthy rich because of it. And i dont mean ppl with 10 million, or even 1 billion, but above that."
Who are you talking about? you mean the movie producers/hollywood/sports/heads of industry? or are you talking about soros, rothschild or most of the others i dont know of who have more control over the world than any government? because i think you can answer that yourself
"Does it also go without saying that these should not be allowed such richess? It is odd to me, bc in Europe its like everyone knows capitalism leads to this and that, so there is hardly any discussion over it."
what are you talking about???
"And since we had all these social mechanics in our economy, that doesnt mean we do not have competition and capitalism , or are socialistic. Far from it."
But you still have uber rich over there and oppressive laws? i dont see how its all that much different
Anyway, we are nearing the end of our discussion and i would like to thank you for remaining civil ;] Much appreciated!
no worries, whats the point of talking about something if you dont intend to in good faith try to change someones mind
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@StofStuiver
"Money flows up, bc of profit over other ppls labor. That capital is then used to destroy competition, either by making them go bankrupt and or by buying them out, leading to higher profits and upscaling of that business."
what you are describing is the creation of a monopoly. which usually government breaks up, but oops, the government is corrupt and loves bribes!
"The proof is obvious, when you look at distribution of wealth. That is never gained by personal labor. Its not hard if you want to see it.
"
If i create a good, or begin a service, then begin to be paid for this service, and eventually grow to a chain is that now capitalism? Now there is a good or service that is in demand, i now have the position to create jobs for others.
"Capitalism is based on growth, bc that money flows up. It can only be maintained succesfully if economies grow."
No it can only be successful if it makes money, not necessarily " grow". owning a small chain of service stations isnt based on infinite growth. Honestly it seems like you cant see capitalism without only seeing megacorps and government helped monopolies.
"And that means it can only grow in an unlimited resource situation (which the US had and Europe lost long ago). If resources are limited, capitalism always crashes.
"
what? what does that even mean? you havent shown me how " capitalism needs infinite growth". Having everything controlled by a government, or a giant multinational corp is just oligarchy in everything but name
Let me rephrase it:
"If your wife needs to go to the MD, will you say no?
"
well of course
"If your kids need a bike to go to school, will you say no?
"
actually yes. id get a broken run down bike and either fix it myself, or my kid can help and learn some life lessons about how to care for your personal things, not exactly one to promote companies that do not share my interests
Yet your kids nor wife generate own income.
If only there wasnt this whole thing where women demanded equality in the work place and suddenly the workforce doubled and no one could afford a one income family anymore.... almost like it was planned or something..
"That is the social group. In a homogenous society that is the collective principle. You pay bc you trust the collective is beneficial. The US isnt a homogenous group. European countries were. Thats the difference"
Right and what im saying is that it was far more homogenous when it was several groups who were very similar. now the country is being flooded by indians, chinese, and south americians as well as africians...
at least we can agree on something though.. mass immigration helps no one by governments and corporate monopolies
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@Inisfad
AHEM
"so·cial·ism
"
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
noun
"a p o l i t i c a l and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
"
synonyms: leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism;
"policy or practice based on the p o l i t i c a l and economic theory of socialism.
"
synonyms: leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism; More
(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.
sooo where do you want to go from here?
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