Comments by "redfish337" (@redfish337) on "Why Japanese Idols Suffer After Retiring [ENG CC]" video.

It's not even 25. That was just their perception. Mai started before the idol boom and she wouldn't have really had many recent examples to look at besides H!P. So even at 22 or whatever she felt she was getting old since that seemed to be what prior groups had been doing. That company's flagship group actually started with a 24 year old but once it got more established it built up more of a farm system and focused on training from younger. But now 11+ years after the idol boom, it's clearly been pulled up to 30, and that's still just a soft limit. (ie, it starts falling off precipitously but there are still likely dozens of examples of them). Yukirin has already declared she will stay until at least 30... which is in 3 weeks, and she has the name recognition to pretty much pull the perception of the upper limit to however old she gets when she quits. The Momoiro Clover girls will also soon have the opportunity to push the limit (oldest is 28).
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@mrbob4104 You have a gross misunderstanding of idols. 90% of idols who stand there and smile will get utterly dusted by the competition. Many if not most get a commission on sales. 10% are pretty enough to do okay just standing pretty but are basically conceding a natural advantage. Sure, they might not know how to design a webpage for maximum clickthroughs or whatever, but they're definitely at least practiced in the art of sales.
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In the end, the song is associated with the performer, whoever that might be. If BAND-MAID songs weren't BAND-MAID songs but were performed by idols, wouldn't you still like the songs? Even if an idol group has a good singer they pretty much aren't ever good singers top to bottom and someone else could probably do it better- but the song associates with a particular performer and that's just what you get. This is really easy to see with BAND-MAID, because their first three albums weren't their own, and even World Domination (5th) includes tracks with first credit to Akutsu Kentaro. I like "Fate" even though Kanami wasn't first credit. It's this guy in the captain uniform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3ujGqGSGak "Thrill", the song be wrote that got BAND-MAID to go viral, could have easily been a PASSPO song performed by his band at their idol lives if he felt like giving it to them instead of BAND-MAID. As for the benefits of an idol over a band... well, if you aren't actually there at lives and doing meet and greets then you really aren't getting what they're selling. I do put BAND-MAID pretty much at the top. But the idols with the sorts of songs I like don't really give up as much ground as they "should" so to say.
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@errorys4183 Chris is basically correct. I don't even know what you're getting on about. I have 8 hand-written letters from J-idols. BABYMETAL doesn't even do MC during their sets. There is definitely a difference.
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Got married. They had a show featuring them last year (2020). Not sure if it's at all possible to find it. But the article about it said: precious metal jewelry design, married.
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@errorys4183 There are idols who play instruments so your definition doesn't stick anyway.
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@errorys4183 Idols existed long before the 1980s. But J-pop as a genre didn't exist until around 1989. It's called Kayoukyoku or Showa Era Pop. I don't know where Pink Lady and such actually sort, but in terms of who actually gets sorted into 女性アイドル at stores, that pretty much starts from Morning Musume (1997) due to the relative dearth of idols after at least one suicide and an attempted suicide were the death knell to the Showa idol system at the end of the '80s, fairly clearly delineating the eras. Especially since they had an Emperor change in 1989, the first in over 60 years, and first since the war. Oh yeah, and the bubble burst around the same time. So there's definitely a before and after the early '90s in the Japanese mindset. MAX and SPEED and such showed a revival was coming with Momusu, but still are usually sorted as plain J-pop. De facto, the word has shifted. Almost all groups are born by way of Akiba style of AKB48 or Momoiro Clover. H!P is still active and regained popularity so it is still included despite some older methods. And 48 and Stardust both had to adapt to having larger fanbases than they were perhaps designed for. As for idols who play: Bandjanaimon Ai Oke While it disbanded recently, Minyou Girls had a shamisen. Probably others but I don't know every group out there. And also disbanded are some two way groups- PASSPO which ran more idol than band and Rurirori which was the opposite. The idol festival system isn't conducive to instruments- turnaround from one group to the next can be 30 seconds or less since usually 3 groups get a 20 minute set each hour and any wasted time means you only get to do 3 songs instead of 4. Nevertheless, such groups exist and that breaks that definition. And BANMON has multiple MV with millions of hits so they are significant.
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That was just their impression, and at least one of them is actually only talking about one company- the translation just fails to mention that. Indeed, that first girl is actually really OG. She started as an idol in 2006, several years before idols got popular again around 2009-2010. When she joined, there weren't a lot of examples. The most recent popular company was H!P, and their system shifted idol group members out into solo or other projects by about age 25. That was just one company's system. But since that was really the only really prominent company in recent memory before she joined, she thought that company's culture applied to everyone. At the end of this video she says she had been too concerned about age- that she is training relatively old idols. 30 is the soft cap in J-idol. There are plenty of over 30s, including some prominent ones. In the 25-30 range... there are probably hundreds if not 1000+ such idols.
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 @MariaLisseth I'm not sure where you think I disagreed with you on anything.
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Minegishi Minami: Auditioned at 12. Debuted at 13. Graduated at 28 and a half. 15.5 years? I mean, I guess Brown-Eyed Girls is officially still together if you count years of hiatus as still being together. Reni is still going in Momoclo. Debuted in 2008 at age 15. Now 28. 12+ year career and counting. Even the group with the company mentioned here with a quit at 25 years old general expectation: Michishige Sayumi: Auditioned and joined at age 13. Graduated at age 25. 12 year career with one group. Sure, a lot of girls just treat it as a part-time job during high school and/or college. But the ones who really want to do it can put together 12-15+ years in the industry. And the relatively low emphasis on training means they can pretty much just get out there and do a lot of their training while they've already started performing.
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Everyone mentions porn as if it's a long-term career. It's just another one with a soft age limit. And it burns bridges to some other careers. One has been successful, but in general it's a bad long-term bet. So it's mostly just a quick payday for people who desperately need a quick payday.
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Yeah, that's a bad translation since plenty of groups still hire past 25. As an aside, poor Yuko Nakazawa. =P
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All this stuff should be taught in high school if they're going to bother to make a law at all. Seriously do not know why they can't cut 5 minutes off every other course to add a "practical life skills class" to the curriculum. What have you learned recently in your continuing education?
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Underground idols have shows after 6pm on 2-4 weekdays and busy weekends. They have to fit some practice and training and rehearsal in there, but basically there's no real overlap with schooling. It's a busy life if you do both (though some idol groups don't perform as much). But there's no conflict. Some that have actually posted about it in the last couple years. Very very partial list. https://twitter.com/yuipon_kisaragi/status/1375727974754881543 https://twitter.com/karen_koizumi/status/1375039793403371523 https://twitter.com/qumali_mei/status/1374291567838515205 https://twitter.com/airi5150/status/1344496706352627713 https://twitter.com/natsuisara/status/1373968343795867648 https://twitter.com/shachi_staff/status/1371789330570567684 https://twitter.com/nanaco03101/status/1370557004259848195 https://twitter.com/qumali_sao/status/1240563694620180480 https://twitter.com/shiori_f_BJ/status/1240135904284549121 https://twitter.com/nakamura_akari/status/1239179513805672448
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That's actually the goal for many of them who do idol work in the mainstream groups in particular. So that's already not just on the radar for them but in many cases the actual mission. And it's long been taking as many of them as it wants. That answer was always there. And may have been the answer for about 20% of them originally. Now there are many more idols but not really any more demand for actresses.
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Furukawa Mirin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAsBEkXAkE
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@Dflowen Idol work isn't STOPPING them from pursuing an education. I mean, I suppose there could be some black companies who ask too much- which is why like part 1 of this 2-parter shows, it's important to read the contract and shop around. While the age range does spread out more than they sometimes think- as the first girl admits at the end realizing she had thought too much of age, the core idol age is still high school and college age so of course they are expecting girls to be in high school and college and having to schedule around that. Again, it doesn't cause much inconvenience for anyone because lives are basically after 5PM on weekdays or on weekends anyway and they can switch around the scheduling for everything else. They'll even give them a little time off now and then ahead of exams. But the companies aren't signing them up for classes. It's ultimately their own responsibility to come up with their next path. The company can maybe give them a little bit of work even if their group disbands- there are kind and asshole managers but even if they have a kind one who wants their ex-members to do well there's only so much they can can keep them on for and then only so much they can do for ex-employees. Since I follow a lot of them on twitter I can just search for keywords under "people you follow" and quickly get a lot of commencement photos. Many are going to college. Many can do it. If they can't, then maybe they shouldn't idol. But that's their call.
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It's not really 25. That was just her impression. Which she later states at 9:20 wasn't really correct. Part of the issue is she actually debuted before the idol boom so there weren't a lot of previous examples. The prime company when she started had a major farm system and so when it started them so young they still could have 10+ year careers by 25. Also, since leaving the group usually doesn't cause anywhere near as much "damage" as in K-pop since it's pretty much an expected part of the process and not a sign of more impending trouble, they're supposed to just ascend to a more serious and specialized part of the entertainment industry (or retire and become normal). Later life Korean girl groups are often awkward because members are still officially tied to the group but start acting less and less like it.
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@DuBstepAnDa98 It's not even clear if she actually got it started or not. Apparently she's pretty much doing the same thing up in Sapporo instead. And in any case, on any given night there are several choices of live event and probably over a dozen on the weekends. Fans are already used to moving on to a new favorite member or group after graduation or disbandment. Idol cafe is basically a different genre. Now if you were a big fan of someone you might go support them on occasion but doing that actually means not going to some other live that would be available. And the cafe isn't cheap either- most of this stuff would likely run more expensive than going to a live.
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I don't know how much you know about the Japanese music industry.... but there kind of aren't any. Japanese pop music shifted from kayoukyoku around 1990. Along with this came pretty much a crash of the female idol industry, the pop of the bubble economy in Japan, and the change of an emperor and therefore a reset of the Japanese calendar (they also use Western). They had 'idols" before but it's basically a different system best covered pretty much totally separately. Pre-1990 idols aren't even sorted with post-1990 idols in Japan... while there are some influences and connections it's basically a totally different category. The oldest ex-member from a major "modern" group is 48, and she's a extreme outlier... rest of her group is something like 35-42. And even that group didn't start a wave- female idols went extremely out of favor in the mid-2000s in favor of female soloists (boy groups remained in favor). And so the idol system as we know it is really only from about 2008. On this specifically, Mai (first girl here) joined in 2006. This is before idols became big again. So she actually is part of that trailblazing group. She's about as old school as you can go in terms of the modern system. It's going to be about 15 more years until we start seeing significant numbers above 50.
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Team Shachi of course! Or Nijicon. Or Qumali Depaato. Fes tive or Neo Japonism or the codomomental groups. I mean, of course you can follow Candys too. You can follow all the groups on twitter (pretty much the only thing it's good for). But they're, one, super indie which is no big deal but means survival rate is low, and two, not really full time, on purpose. And three, if you actually go to Japan like some of us idol fans, they are Sapporo based which makes actually seeing them live a pain in the ass compared to almost all other groups. But hey, if you're following, go ahead and follow: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4a2WS82JyLf1WL6IRZv1ig/videos https://twitter.com/candys_idol https://twitter.com/smi1e_25
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"Does being an idol mean you work within a specific set of the music industry?" Yes. At least in this context of idols. What that actually is is hard to define though. "Women who continue to work as performers after age 25, does just continuing to perform mean they are still "idols"" If they were idols before and are still doing the same thing they are still idols after 25. Honestly, 30 is the more appropriate number these days, and that's still just a soft cap- I could find you ten over 30 with no trouble and many more with some scouring of the Internet. A lot of ones who know they're in it for the long haul don't publish their birth year in the first place so you don't even know if they pass 30 or not. The first girl debuted before the idol boom and didn't really have many examples to look at. The big company around the turn of the century mostly had people leave by 25. "or do they have to be working for specific talent and booking agencies?" Not exactly. They can be self-produced and still be idols. Again, basically every point you could use to define idols has a counterexample so defining is hard. The term includes national groups all the way down to those with like 20 fans afterall. Below the super mainstream, basically all of them perform at events where they get a 15-30 minute slot, and then go outside the main hall to do fan meetings for an hour, where it's understood that they will be getting most of their money for the day. Having good music means having more fans so it's not like the music means nothing but at the end of the day the fan meetings pay the bills.
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@BoucheronsNo.1Fan Warning, many of the ones on that long stream (will probably be 5+ hours) will be bad, especially if you're used to Seiko Oomori and such. It's that level of indie afterall and that's why I usually recommend 1-2 tiers higher up. But it is the next stream coming up, and I do very much appreciate that they stream and even leave it up, as a lot of them either delete it immediately or only leave it up for a week or so.
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Probably she's not from Tokyo or Osaka? There's a rail network but it's not really what most people use outside of those two cities or the city centers of some of the other cities. I remember I would meet college friends in Tokyo. They'd try to help me find the right train home. I'm the foreigner and they're the local who speaks the language fluently so of course they know what they're doing, right? And then I'd realize they're from Tochigi or Iwate or Shimane or whatever, just moved to Tokyo a few months ago, take the same line in to school every day and don't actually know shit about how the lines in Tokyo connect. But in the context of idols, that seems strange. Very few idols can afford to just take a taxi everywhere. Most of the indie ones will be playing venues all over the place and will get around for her job a lot more than a student would.
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Idol world is one where trees and raccoons and Hawkeyes and Falcons can legitimately help against the armies of Thanos. Despite having something like 1/1000000th the power of the top tier Avengers. The idol world applies "plot armor" to those idols so that we can better enjoy the show. If they were to fight logically (according to the mythos), they are useless and should just stay home. The regular singing world doesn't have the plot armor, at least not to the same degree. So many of them are useless and should stay home. The idol world gives them plot armor so if people like someone saying "groot" all the time or of standing so incredibly still they they become invisible to the eye... that they can still make it on the team.
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Look around more.
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That was just her impression and she specifically mentioned one company but for some reason the translation ignored that. It's really no issue to find 100+ idols who are 25+. Also, when you quit an idol group you "graduate" so everyone knows it's not supposed to be a long-term career.
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@BoucheronsNo.1Fan Indie groups streaming here in 60 minutes. They keep it archived. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6No6_9GiNg comodomental's new unit has a short live in 7 hours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVDKgZuBlIE A different one has one in a couple days around this time of day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AXFHYN8b5o NEO JAPONISM has a whole bunch of no-audience performances uploaded. Maybe twenty 40 minute sets. Most of this stuff is pretty indie. The problem with suuuuper indie stuff is it's a lot harder to get much of anything from abroad. CANDYS does look like they're uploading at a decent rate though.
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A lot of it is just the dynamics of boy and girl groups in Japan. Johnny's has been the preeminent boy group company for decades and while other groups have formed, it's sort of ruled with an iron fist, power plays and some questionable ethics. But... their guys have been supported by the company into their late 30s and 40s so they can make a career out of it. Meanwhile the female idol system has basically crashed twice and now the main company 46/48 have a concept that isn't easily copied and they've more or less promoted the proliferation of female idol groups. Many, many, maaaany groups. Most of these idols aren't really talented enough to make a career out of it. Which is fine- every job isn't a career. They just have to be honest with themselves about their prospects.
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The soft upper limit is age 30, not 20. Last time I calculated, about 85% of AKB48 was age ~17-22. They're not being forced to graduate at 20- that's when they're moving into their prime. Idols fans are loyal- most of the most popular members are older. H!P, the company the girls in this video talked about which is popular among female idol fans, runs a little younger, leading to their misconceptions. A lot of indie companies run older.
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They can go to college WHILE they're an idol. It's hard of course, but there's hardly any actual time overlap. It's just a matter of finding the time to sleep and study.
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I don't know what you mean. You're aware of what's out there right? Momoko was H!P so I really don't know why you think she was particularly unique. You want them to write their own songs? You want them to do their own choreography? You want them to not be in schoolgirl outfits? You want them to have some other sort of music genre? All that stuff is out there.
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No there are not. You underestimate how many idols there are. Maybe the rate is higher than a random sampling of girls since it's taking from a group of people who seek attention and have had a little taste of receiving attention. But it's not all that many considering how many there are. It's probably something like 0.5-1%. And 0.5% is a number I've seen cited as the nationwide number for all girls.
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@rayyanali4471 Furukawa Mirin.
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@errorys4183 Of course they're "not a band". They're idols. That's the point here!
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@fandarzelig Sure! Also, if you don't really know about this, "idol" is genre-less. Even in Japan probably most have a certain image of it being cute pop songs, but even if they just looked into mainstream groups that stereotype doesn't really pass. And it definitely doesn't pass in the underground. "Idol" refers to all those cultural aspects that are hard to define... a group could be festival-theme idol or dempa-idol or hip-hop idol or metal screamo idol or anything really.
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Of those who I followed most over the years: Mainstream: 5 out of 5 are doing fine. Indies: 2 out of 5 are doing fine, 1 out of 5 should be doing fine because toward the end she announced she had graduated college... because being an idol and going to college really don't actually have much time conflict at all (it's just a matter of if you have the willpower to burn the candle at both ends or not), there is no information on one, and the last is having some trouble. So is that a bad enough record to scare people away? I don't think so.
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It's not hypocritical. The people who brown-nose at their company to 60+ hour work weeks and then go to all the after-work drinking parties to brown-nose with their boss again and live their life as if life is work get the promotions. They probably have a family, but they hardly ever see them. Idol fans want to get off work by 6-7pm so that they can actually get to see the shows. Then they don't go to the after work drinking with the boss since they're always at shows every night. So, while they are probably still working overtime, since they actually have a little bit more work/life balance than the work is life people (even if the workers are more likely to have family, because, again, having them and not ever seeing them isn't really balance...), they look like slackers by comparison. Idol fans would probably loosen a lot of corporate rules. But you don't get into position to loosen corporate rules when the workaholics pass on promotions to workaholics.
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