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神州 Shenzhou
Cyrus Janssen
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Comments by "神州 Shenzhou" (@Shenzhou.) on "China Won't Give Up It's Zero Covid Policy....Here is Why" video.

Cyrus, if you understood Confucian virtues, then Chinese value the elderly in society, that's why China prioritize keeping elderly folk safe, even if at the cost to the economy. Loss of money and income is tragic yes, but people can always make money later aferwards. But once elderly people lost their lives, then no amount of money can buy back lives once they are gone.
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@bobmorane4926 I think the best way to understand it is that local governments (i.e Shanghai, Wuhan, etc) are primarily responsible for their own province, whereas the central government is responsible for all of China and the big picture. If a city's government is unable to curb the local cases and prevent them from spreading, that usually signals when the central government starts stepping in and taking over reins.
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Cyrus, if you understood Confucian virtues, then Chinese value the elderly in society, that's why China prioritize keeping elderly folk safe, even if at the cost to the economy. Loss of money and income is tragic yes, but people can always make money later after the bad period passes. But once elderly people lost their lives, then no amount of money can buy back lives once they are gone.
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China's Covid-19 policy is to save lives (even elderly lives) at the expense of businesses. Whereas U.S Covid-19 policy is to save businesses at the expense of lives.
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Can't agree hard enough. The other countries can compare scores with one another, but China should set our own standards and strive to achieve what is best for China.
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To Cyrus, the deaths of elderly folk due to Covid might seem justified. But Confucian culture values the lives of the elderly, even at the cost to the economy. Loss of money and income is tragic yes, but money lost can eventually be earned back. But once elderly folk lost their lives, no amount of money can buy back lives that have been lost due to Covid, that's why China still prioritize lives over businesses.
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@mwang168 Indeed. Chinese culture is often stereotype as loving money, but Chinese also love health. As the Chinese adage goes: "Health is the best form of wealth" 健康是最大的财富。
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@MarkYeung1 Tell that to the Canadian truckers protesting about vaccine mandates.
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@WatchingMindlesslySince2006 Different cultures treasure their elderly folk differently. Beijing didn't told Paris to "shut up", Chinese spokesperson Zhao Lijian said: "We hope that there is no misunderstanding: the Chinese side has never made a negative comment on French management of the epidemic, and has no intention of doing so."
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@bingdd168 Don't other countries also have this same issue of elderly refusing to get vaccinated? Whichever country you look at, there are always older people who refuse vaccination, either for medical reasons or out of fear of the vaccine. Obviously governments could have done more to educate the elderly, but there will always be a lingering amount of elderly folk refusing vaccines.
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@MarkYeung1 Tell that to the Canadian truckers protesting about vaccine mandates.
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Chinese Confucian culture values the elderly folk of society, even if it comes at the expense of the economy. Loss of income is tragic yes, but money loss can be eventually earned again in the future. But once elderly people lose their lives, no amount of money can buy back those lives that have been lost.
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@kellikelli4413 "神州 Shenzhou It's obvious that the excuse of "keeping seniors safe" is a lie meant to fool people..." Fool people for what? You think Chinese people don't care about the elderly, when it's part of traditional Confucian values?
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@MarkYeung1 Also, you keep throwing around the word "immunized" but vaccination does not equal immunity, and people can still contract the viruse (like Cyrus did) even after being vaccinated. Please be informed before you spread information.
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@Hanabis924 So you're labelling China as authoritarian regime, yet China is the one without a vaccine mandate, and it's those Canadian truckers protesting against vaccine mandates that are purportedly having their bank accounts frozen, just for protesting as their given right as Canadians. Aren't you seemingly applying double standards here?
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Well said. Respect for the elderly is part of Chinese Confucian culture, and while Cyrus could accept the deaths of elderly people as justified, many Chinese are horrified if our elders are exposed to avoidable health risks. Loss of money and income is tragic yes, but money loss can still be earned back in the future. But once elderly people lose their lives, no amount of money can buy back those lives that have been lost.
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@Birdylockso Personal freedoms may be sacrificed because of lockdowns, but once the Covid-19 cases are under control, then reopening will bring back those freedoms. For example, Wuhan has reopened, Shenzhen has reopened, and eventually Shanghai will reopen once the cases are under control. However, once the elderly lose their lives because of Covid, then there's no way to bring them back. Is it worth sacrificing someone's parents and grandparents, just for a temporary suspension of personal freedoms?
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@adamiskandar5107 Agreed. Even some expats who have lived in China for years now, still may not fully understand this concept among Chinese. Oftentimes, Chinese culture is stereotyped as loving money, but Chinese also love health more. The Chinese adage goes "Good heath is the best form of wealth." (健康是最大的财富)
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@Damo-ml3fc Yes, we shouldn't generalize across the different cities, but perhaps other Chinese cities local governments could learn lessons from cities that handled the outbreak well like Shenzhen, and from those that handle it badly like Shanghai, and perhaps come up with their own strategies.
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@stargate8811 But Singapore is a population of 5 million, whereas Shanghai has a population of 25 million, so how can you compare Singapore with Shanghai? Singapore's model could possibly work on Hong Kong with their population of 7 million, but I don't think it will work with a 5x larger population like in Shanghai.
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@Birdylockso I see. I guess I must have misread your comment. Indeed, I agree with you that human beings aren't always as rational all the time, and rationality can be drowned out by emotion at times. But hopefully like you said, China will pass this trial.
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Albert YK Chen Young children are (temporary) separated from families, because the Omicron variant is better able to resist children's innate immune response, and the lack of vaccines and boosters for children makes it harder to protect them compared to adults. Furthermore, scientists are unable to ascertain the long-term effects of Covid-19 on children who've contracted the virus. After these kids grow up in the future, who knows what lingering side-effects they might carry into their adult life?
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@MarkYeung1 So doesn't that mean Canadian government is more authoritarian since they have vaccine mandates unlike mainland China? Furthermore, you said: Governments have a responsibility to keep people safe, but sadly there was 261 deaths in Canada on 13 April due to Covid. Right now, given that the elderly vaccine rate is 62% in Shanghai, the best course of action is still lockdown, to prevent any more unnecessary deaths due to the virus.
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@MarkYeung1 China does not have a vaccine mandate (unlike Canada forcing seniors to get vaccinated against their will). Also, the priority right now is not immediate vaccination, because they'll only develop antibodies after a few months, so the priority right now in Shanghai is still lockdown.
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@MarkYeung1 Once again, getting vaccinated doesn't grant you immunity, it's possible to contract the coronavirus even while fully vaccinated. For example, Cyrus Janssen had gotten vaccinated earlier, and yet he still contracted Covid-19. Yet you're constantly throwing around the word immunity when getting vaccinated doesn't equal immunity, please get informed about vaccination.
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue "In Canada the elderly have the HIGHEST acceptance rate." Again, that's because the virus is allowed to spread uncontrollably (sadly average of 100 Canadians are dying to Covid every day) that's why elderly see the need to vaccinate. Whereas in China, the Covid-19 situation was under control and that's why many elderly in China do not feel the urgency to vaccinate.
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue "Unfortunately, those bonds take time to build... and if you're disconnected from your family physically for a long period of time... those bonds don't form." Chinese culture is such that many elderly take care of our kids, while the parents are away working, and this is what builds the family bonds. If those elderly are gone (because of Covid) then the familial bonds might start to disintegrate. Once again, loss of income is tragic, but money loss can always be earned again. However, lives lost cannot be undone.
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue How am I not on the people's side? I clearly said that loss of income is regrettable, but money lost can always be earned again.But the loss of elderly lives cannot be undone.
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@MarkYeung1 You've been providing incorrect information about vaccination. It takes more than 2 weeks to become fully vaccinated, you still have to wait at least 21-28 days to get the 2nd dose before being becoming fully vaccinated.
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue I don't understand why you claim China is only experiencing limited success, when China has controlled the pandemic arguably far better than many Western countries. The number of deaths from Covid in China is only 4k, compared to nearly 40k for Canada.
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue "I actually come to Cyrus' channel because his viewpoint is interesting...He's also not China" As much as I like Cyrus' channel too, Cyrus is NOT the Governor of Shanghai, responsible for the lives of 26 million in the city, so what makes you seem to think he could do a better job than the Shanghai governor?
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@kammonkam4905 Mo Zi (墨子, also called "Micius" in English) is celebrated in China today. If I'm not mistaken, the world's first quantum satellite was launched by China in 2016 and the satellite itself was named "Micius" or "Mozi" in homage to the philosopher's writings on optics. "Since Han the rulers have combined Confucianism and the harsh legalistic school as two pillars of autocratic rules." And the combined philosophies of Confucianism and Legalism worked to successfully guide China through thousands of years of history and survive the passage of time to modern times. It's become the basis of Chinese culture and it's how Chinese civilization survived for thousands of years, where other ancient civilizations like Egypt, Mesopotamia, Rome, etc eventually crumbled.
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@kammonkam4905 We've been talking for some time, and I'm getting the feeling that you're just seemingly anti-China for no apparent reason that's all. It's like you look down on Chinese culture, Chinese people, Chinese history... the list goes on! And it appears you can't stand to see China pursue our own path to success that's all. Where does this anti-China sentiment of yours seem to come from?
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@kammonkam4905 You did twist my words. I've been saying Yuan is Chinese (for reasons stated above) but you've somehow twisted it to become Mongols and Japanese are Chinese. It's like you can't refute my points, so you throw in all sorts of unrelated issues (i.e Noah's Ark, Roman and Greeks, Japanese are Chinese) instead of refuting my point. It's like you're comparing apples and oranges here, claiming that what applies for one has to apply to the other.
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@topherno Contrary to popular opinion, China does not have a vaccine mandate, which probably a reason why some elderly refuse to vaccine either out of medical conditions, or simply because of fear of vaccines. Senior Chinese health officials are urging the elderly to get vaccinated after the latest wave in Hong Kong. "The outbreak in Hong Kong is a particularly profound lesson for us, an example that if the vaccination rate for the elderly is low, the rate of severe cases and deaths will be high," Wang Hesheng, deputy director of the National Health Commission, told a news briefing.
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@Damo-ml3fc Contrary to popular world opinion, getting vaccinated or not is still largely the choice of the individual in China. Like elderly folk elsewhere, Chinese elderly aren't exempt from the same fear of vaccines that drives other elderly people (including some young people too) so perhaps there needs to be better education to inform those people.
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@MarkYeung1 Well, why didn't a crowded world class city like Hong Kong vaccinate their elderly then? Contrary to popular world opinion, China doesn't have a vaccine mandate (unlike the truckers in Canada for example). And now that it's too late to start vaccinating the elderly, the best course of action is lockdown to prevent more unnecessary deaths.
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@MarkYeung1 It's too late, cases are already spreading in Shanghai and with only 62% elderly vaccinated, lockdown is the best course of action. The house is on fire, you don't start thinking about how to prevent the fire, you'll have to first put out the fire. So when it happens to a world class crowded city like Hong Kong, it's just embarrassing, but when it happens to Shanghai, it's unacceptable? Why the seemingly double standards here?
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@MarkYeung1 So you're admitting that Canada has taken authoritarian measures like imposing a vaccine mandate, whereas in mainland China there's no vaccine mandate? Yet why do Westerners claim that they have freedoms over Chinese when they have such mandates?
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@MarkYeung1 You said it's unacceptable for a crowded, world class city like Shanghai, yet for Hong Kong, you just said it's embarrassing, that's all, so why the difference in treatment between Shanghai and and Hong Kong?
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@MarkYeung1 "神州 Shenzhou When it comes to protecting the lives citizens during a health crisis, government need to be decisive." Sadly, there are still around 100 cases of Canadians dying from Covid, right now even as we speak, whereas China take decisive steps to save as many lives as possible through lockdown.
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@WatchingMindlesslySince2006 Turns out it was all just a big misunderstanding. In a tweet, the Chinese embassy in Paris clarified that the incidents of patients being left to die after being abandoned by care workers occurred in Spain, not France. 北京随即解释说是这是“误解”，并否认所有“对法国抗击疫情的负面评论”。面对法国舆论的巨大批评，中国大使馆也出面解释说，文章实际上是针对西班牙的，因为三月底，西班牙部队在类似的养老部门里发现了死亡例子。但是因为文章使用了法国专门护理不能自理的老人机构的缩写词“ 老人院（Ehpad）”，这一缩写很少在法国以外使用，因此，被认为是指发生在法国养老院里，其中包括法国外长。最后，法国外长表示，北京的反应“消除了所有的误解，并重申了在新的多边主义中合作的必要性”。 Translation: Beijing immediately explained that it was a "misunderstanding" and denied all "negative comments about France's fight against the epidemic." In the face of huge criticism from French public opinion, the Chinese embassy also came forward to explain that the article was actually aimed at Spain, because at the end of March, Spanish troops found examples of deaths in similar pension departments. However, because the article uses the French acronym "Ehpad", a French acronym for specialized care for the elderly who cannot take care of themselves, this acronym is rarely used outside of France, so it is considered to refer to the occurrence in French nursing homes, including the French foreign minister. In the end, the French foreign minister said that Beijing's response "dispelled all misunderstandings and reaffirmed the need for cooperation in the new multilateralism".
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@WatchingMindlesslySince2006 Just because Chinese embassy used a French acronym EHPAD doesn't necessarily mean China was referring to France. The Chinese Embassy even issued a statement explaining the use of this acronym by French media to refer to medical nursing homes in other countries. Here it is: 另外，我馆文章中关于“养老院”的描述引自媒体对其他欧洲国家的报道，并不涉及法国。法国媒体也广为使用“EHPAD”指各国医疗养老院。比如，《巴黎人报》4月18日在推特上就曾使用，称“新冠肺炎疫情中，加拿大一家EHPAD被护理人员抛弃”。该词也被LCI等多家媒体使用。 Translation: In addition, the description of the "nursing home" in the article of our library is quoted from the media reports on other European countries, and does not involve France. French media also widely use "EHPAD" to refer to medical nursing homes in various countries. For example, Le Parisien used it on Twitter on April 18, saying that "an EHPAD in Canada was abandoned by paramedics during the new crown pneumonia epidemic." The term is also used by several media outlets such as LCI.
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@MarkYeung1 You seem to have forgotten that many vaccines require at least 2 doses,* which have to be taken 21 days apart for the Pfizer-BioNTech/Comirnaty vaccine, and 28 days apart for the Moderna/Spikevax vaccine and Sinovac. Please be informed yourself.
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@MarkYeung1 China had the Covid-19 situation largely under control, that's why many elderly in China do not see the need to vaccinate. Wheres in Canada, the virus is allowed to spread uncontrollably (sadly average of 100 Canadians are dying to Covid every day) that's why elderly see the need to vaccinate.
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@MarkYeung1 The fact that it takes 2 doses spread out over 21/28 days and a further 2 weeks to become fully vaccinated, means that it's currently too late to start vaccinating the elderly population in Shanghai, now that cases are surging. The priority should be to lower the number of cases, and that's why ultimately, lockdown is still necessary for Shanghai. Once the situation is under control, then vaccinating the elderly can be carried out, since it's a tedious and time-consuming process spanning at least a month or more.
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@kammonkam4905 I just gave the truckers protesting against vaccine mandates as an example of Canadian vaccine mandates that's all, and that some of the truckers bank accounts were purportedly frozen. But China doesn't have a vaccine mandate that's why some elderly in China are not vaccinated.
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@MarkYeung1 Are you sure you got vaccinated when you didn't even know that it takes 21-28 days to get 2 doses to get fully vaccinated? And now you're saying that Shanghai people should have gotten vaccinated 4 to 5 weeks earlier, that means it takes at least a month to get sufficient levels of antibodies, so why are you telling me to get informed when you yourself are apparently uninformed?
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue "Did Jurassic Park teach us NOTHING! lol." Jurassic Park is a work of fiction for crying out loud, what has fiction got to do with reality?
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue Works of fiction like Jurassic Park_ had their authors deliberately exaggerate the negative effects of humanity's actions primarily for entertainment purposes and to attract readership of their books. But it doesn't necessarily mean that what happens in the book is reflective of reality.
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@zyp85 Why don't you claim that the U.S should ban the sales of guns then?
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@kammonkam4905 Even outside of China, women have been historically subjugated in most societies throughout the ancient world. Confucius was born during a chaotic period of Chinese history, with numerous warring states fighting among each other for control, and it's in this background that Confucius developed his philosophies. Lu Xun was highly acclaimed by the Chinese government after 1949, when the People's Republic of China was founded, and Mao Zedong himself was a lifelong admirer of Lu Xun's writing. As a communist, Mao had similarly denounced Confucius as a “regressive pedant and feudal” but if anything, history has shown that Confucian values just can't be separated from China.
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@kammonkam4905 I'm still waiting for you to give me the name of this 94 year old woman. It's like you can't refute my points, so you start bringing in other topics in your attempts to derail the discussion that's all. I mean the way you describe Chinese as "goons in Hazmat suits" clearly displays your anti-China view, so why pretend that you're not anti-China when you clearly are?
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@Hanabis924 It just goes to show that despite how some people boast about freedoms in the West, they still require vaccine mandates whereas China doesn't have such a vaccine mandate, contrary to popular opinion in the West.
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@Hanabis924 Why don't you outright name these "coercive ways" rather than just making insinuations about China without proof? The fact remains that China did not impose a vaccine mandate (which is why many elderly are vaccinated) whereas you can't say the same about Canadian truckers being slapped with a vaccine mandate. "Bank accounts were frozen because of dark money possibly coming from the United States. It's potential fraudulent transactions." So you're saying that Canadians had their accounts frozen based on "potential" fraud? In other words, the crime itself is unproven? Isn't that alarming for a country like Canada that prides itself on freedoms and rule of law? "You are making it sound like every trucker had their bank accounts frozen." I did say "purportedly," I never said that every trucker had their bank accounts frozen. But shouldn't those Canadian truckers have the right to protest under their constitution, without having their bank accounts frozen based on unproven crimes?
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@Hanabis924 Could you outright name these "coercive ways" rather than just making insinuations about China without proof? The fact remains that China did not impose a vaccine mandate whereas you can't say the same about Canadian truckers being slapped with a vaccine mandate. "Bank accounts were frozen because of dark money possibly coming from the United States. It's potential fraudulent transactions." So you're saying that Canadians had their accounts frozen based on "potential" fraud? In other words, the crime itself is unproven?
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@Hanabis924 Perhaps you could outright name these "coercive ways" that you said earlier, rather than just making insinuations about China without proof? "So it isn't just frozen without notice." I never said it was frozen without notice, I said it was frozen even though their crimes are unproven?
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@Bilangumus In China, the Chinese government controls the state-owned companies for China's benefit, reining in companies when they gone too far. Whereas in the United States, the rich U.S corporations control the U.S government for war and profit at the expense of ordinary Americans.
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Some other Asian countries like Japan and Singapore aren't implementing a vaccine mandate either, so it doesn't necessarily mean that a mandate is the solution here.
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@zhouyou28 "Their only legitimacy to rule China is promise economy prosperity." It's true that this is being tested right now, but the majority of Chinese citizens continue supporting the government's policy of lockdown being a necessity. Only time will tell, but if it's successful, then the Communist Party's legitimacy would be reinforced further.
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China's Covid-19 response is to save lives at the expense of businesses. USA's Covid-19 response is to save businesses at the expense of lives.
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@pr0newbie Chinese Confucian culture teaches us to value our elderly folk in society, even if it comes at the cost of the economy. Loss of income and money is tragic yes, but money lost can still be earned again in the future. However, once the elderly lose their lives, no amount of money can buy back lives that have been lost.
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@pr0newbie Confucianism in China had existed since 551 BC. Confucianism had survived the Qin Emperor's attempt to wipe it out, and they have been guiding Chinese society for thousands of years, far earlier than the 18th and 19th century. And the elderly suffering while the economy is bad, is better than the elderly dying while the economy is good, that's simply not the Chinese way to allow our elderly to perish when it can be avoided. As for vaccination, some elderly people have medical conditions that prevent them from getting vaccinated.
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@pr0newbie You said that the Confucian respect for elders served the elite's interests, but there are poor elder people too, so how does Confucian virtues serve those poor elderly people? The fact remains that Confucian principles have been guiding China for thousands of years prior to the 18th and 19th century. China has 5000 years of history and is among the world's oldest "continuous" civilization still alive today, whereas other ancient civilizations like Mesopotamia, Rome and Egypt have since succumbed to history. China has witnessed the birth and death of various other nations, the rise and fall of numerous other empires, yet China has survived the violent passage of time to modern times relatively intact, whereas even Rome eventually crumbled.
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As far as I know, other Asian countries like Japan and Singapore don't have vaccine mandates for the elderly either, so the vaccine mandate may not be the solution.
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@OlJackBurton That's just how Confucian society is. To Westerners it may appear backward, but Confucian principles has served Chinese civilization for thousands of years, and has become intrinsic to Chinese culture. As for the younger folk, from what I understand, their complaints stem not from a lack of money to buy necessities, but from the logistical difficulties of distributing food across the 26 million population city. And lastly, let's not forget that earlier China's transformation from a dirt-poor country into economic juggernaut was built upon the backs of our elderly.
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@Epistemophilia7 I don't know what sarcastic comment you wrote, but sometimes sarcasm just doesn't translate well into text form. A tip: If you're trying to be sarcastic, it's best to grrrooosssly exxaaggeeraate your statements, so that sarcasm can be picked up. Or include a footnote like "I was sarcastic" at the end of your post. As for Cyrus, he reads tonnes of comments every day, perhaps he could have misunderstood your post after a brief glance.
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@bingdd168 "神州 Shenzhou Then why didn't they take proactive action to get more elderly vaccinated? They could have done more to convince and motivate the elderly." As far as I know, every country has this same issue that China experiences, with the elderly folk refusing to get vaccinated. Many older people in USA, UK, Canada, Australia, France, Germany, Japan, South Korea, etc also refuse to get vaccinated, either for medical reasons or out of fear of vaccines. Even in countries with a 80-90% vaccinated population, there are still elderly folk that refuse to get vaccinated. There's only so much a government can do to educate and persuade its elderly population to take the vaccine. But if that fails, then another option is temporary lockdown until the number of cases falls to an acceptable level.
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@bingdd168 As far as I know, every country has this same issue that China experiences, with the elderly folk refusing to get vaccinated. Many older people in USA, UK, Canada, Australia, France, Germany, Japan, South Korea, etc also refuse to get vaccinated, either for medical reasons or out of fear of vaccines. Even in countries with a 80-90% vaccinated population, there are still elderly folk that refuse to get vaccinated. There's only so much a government can do to educate and persuade its elderly population to take the vaccine. But if that fails, then another option is temporary lockdown until the number of cases falls to an acceptable level.
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@WatchingMindlesslySince2006 "The controversy follows a series of acerbic anonymous posts on the Paris embassy’s website, ascribed to a Chinese diplomat," What's the name of this Chinese diplomat who allegedly said such a thing? Have you verified that it's really a Chinese diplomat who said that, and not more fake news?
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@kellikelli4413 What deliberate cruelty? If Covid-19 is allowed to infect Shanghai, then more elderly people will die.
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@kellikelli4413 More elderly people in Shanghai will die if Covid spreads uncontrollably, how is that deliberate cruelty?
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@kellikelli4413 How is it a scam?
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@kellikelli4413 Do you want more elderly people in Shanghai to be exposed to the virus?
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@MarkYeung1 But if elderly vaccination rate of Shanghai is 62% (indicated in Cyrus' video) then right now, lockdown is still the preferred way to prevent unnecessary deaths of elderly.
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@MarkYeung1 Who's playing words with you? You said it's unacceptable for a crowded, world class city like Shanghai, yet for Hong Kong, you just said it's embarrassing, that's all, and the words are there for anyone to see.
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@MarkYeung1 The fact that even right now, that there are tragically around 100 deaths of Canadians because of Covid, indicates that the Canadian government doesn't have a responsibility to keep people safe like you claim. Also, voting out the Canadian government doesn't solve the problem, whereas the Chinese government takes proactive steps to save as many lives from Covid as possible.
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@MarkYeung1 I check the polls and it seems Canadian PM Justin Trudeu's approval ratings for Mar-2022 is 39% approval and 57% disapproval. Justin Trudeu's administration is basically "underwater" as they call it.
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@WatchingMindlesslySince2006 What's the name of the Chinese diplomat that allegedly wrote such inflammatory words? Can you give me his/her name?
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@WatchingMindlesslySince2006 So I take it that you don't know what's the name of the Chinese diplomat that allegedly made such inflammatory comments? Then how can you say it was China who was behind it?
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@MarkYeung1 Quebec, Canada's second most populous province, is planning to force adults refusing to get COVID-19 vaccinated pay a "health contribution" in a move likely to spur a debate about individual rights and social responsibility. (this is taken from Western media like Reuters) Another thing to note is that China had the Covid-19 situation largely under control, that's why many elderly in China do not see the need to vaccinate. Wheres in Canada, the virus is allowed to spread uncontrollably (sadly average of 100 Canadians are dying to Covid every day) that's why elderly see the need to vaccinate. Because the Canadian government doesn't seem to be doing the job of protecting the people.
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@MarkYeung1 China had the Covid-19 situation largely under control, that's why many elderly in China do not see the need to vaccinate. Wheres in Canada, the virus is allowed to spread uncontrollably (sadly average of 100 Canadians are dying to Covid every day) that's why elderly see the need to vaccinate. Because the Canadian government doesn't seem to be doing the job of protecting the people.
1
@MarkYeung1 1st dose alone is insufficient, you'll need a 2nd dose which has to be taken after 21-28 days after the 1st dose, and a further 1-2 weeks before you'll be considered having the sufficient level of antibodies. Also, being fully vaccinated is not immunity, you can still catch the virus even while fully vaccinated. Please be informed yourself. Did you get vaccinated yourself? Why is it you know so little about how long it takes to acquire sufficient antibodies, if you've been vaccinated?
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@kammonkam4905 Those Canadian truckers protesting the vaccine mandates are one such example. Some of those truckers purportedly even had their bank accounts frozen, just for protesting which is a Canadian right.
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue The elderly in Canada had the highest vaccination rate because the Canadian government just let Covid-19 ravage their country's population. If the Canadian government don't protect their elderly, then the elderly feel the urgency to vaccinate themselves. Sadly, even till today, there are at least 100 deaths daily in Canada due to Covid-19. Whereas in China, the Chinese government did such a good job handling the Covid-19 outbreak, that unfortunately, many elderly people don't feel the urgency to vaccinate and believe that they can continue to postpone their vaccination. As for the divide between older and younger in China than Canada, remember that China has changed so much in just decades that the older generation finds difficulty keeping up to date with the younger generation is all.
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue "神州 Shenzhou Yep, and remember... those truckers were a very vocal minority even among truckers." The same applies to Shanghai, those people protesting lockdown only applies to a very vocal minority of the residents in Shanghai. Majority of the people in China believe that lockdown is necessary in order to combat the virus. "Few feel that it was a protest. It was a revolt... with crazy demands like demanding the Prime Minister be removed. It was trending towards political anarchy." If Canadians think demanding their Prime Minister be removed is crazy, I've lost track of the number of times many Westerners (but not all) seem to think Chinese all want to overthrow the Chinese government.
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue Jurassic Park is a work of fiction, which is not the same as reality. Writers of fiction often exaggerate the negative effects of say technology, going against nature, climate change, or any topic, primarily for entertainment purposes, in order to attract readership and get their books published. But what happens in the book may not necessarily be what happens in reality, that's why it's fiction.
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue If anything, you're just confirming my theory that Canadian elderly had to vaccinate because the Canadian government choose to do nothing about it, so the elderly had to take matters into their own hands and vaccinate themselves. On 13th April there was a surge of 261 Covid deaths due in Canada, so 100 deaths daily was just an estimate on my part. 1 death is too many I agree and if a patient has underlying conditions, contracted Covid and died, doesn't that still imply that catching Covid caused the person's death? Had that person not contracted the virus, it's possible that he/she would still be alive. "Do you build a bigger tsunami wall, or do you convince people to build on higher ground." The thing is China has the capability to build a bigger tsunami wall, through implementing lockdowns (of which in other countries, would face massive backlash). When the tsunami arrives, it's too late to build on higher ground, why not use the existing wall that was pre-built as part of the zero Covid policy? "The people of Fukushima found this out the hard way." China is NOT Japan, and Shanghai is NOT Fukushima. I don't know why do you keep comparing China with Japan (even though you said it's pointless to compare countries). If anything, China and South Korea protested the Japanese government just releasing contaminated Fukushima water into the sea.
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue Canada has recorded a death toll of nearly 40k due to the virus, how is the word "ravage" not appropriate?
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue How am I not on the people's side? I've been advocating that although the loss of income is regrettable, but money loss can still be earned back. But once those elderly people lose their lives, no amount of money can buy back those lives that have been lost. Whereas you just quote works of fiction like Jurassic Park, who's going to believe you?
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@MarkYeung1 You've been giving out incorrect information, you said 2 weeks, when in actual fact you have to wait 21-28 days to take the 2nd dose (plus an additional 2 weeks) to become fully vaccinated and attain an acceptable level of antibodies. Furthermore, being fully vaccinated does not grant immunity, you can still contract the illness even after vaccination, even Cyrus got infected after his vaccination. Yet you keep throwing out the word "immunity" around when it's just not true.
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue China's tsunami walls have met with great success. China recorded only 4k deaths due to Covid-19, whereas Canada recorded a death toll of nearly nearly 40k due to Covid, so how is it limited success? And do you have actual evidence for your claim that China doesn't record patient who died from complications arising from Covid-19?
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@TheNewGreenIsBlue Look, you're the one quoting works of fiction like Jurassic Park as somehow being reflective of reality, but you know that authors write those stories primarily to entertain their audiences and attract readers. So how can quoting fictional works even apply to reality?
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The explosion in search for "immigration", could possivly be from the foreigners and expats living in Shanghai seeking to immigrate elsewhere.
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@hillerm It's tragic that that elderly woman died, but imagine how many more elderly would die if Covid-19 spreads uncontrollably throughout Shanghai. What you are describing is Shanghai local government's poor implementation of the zero Covid policy that's all, other cities in China have done a much better job of containing outbreaks.
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@ryanshiflett2178 Many in the West might not have resources saved up, but it's no secret that Chinese people tend to save up money for a rainy day. The problems in Shanghai mainly stem from logistical issues, like transporting food and supplies, not from a lack of resources to purchase those food. The people in Shanghai have the money, it's just that the distribution of supplies is a concern.
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@Jordan18561 "Why are the vaccination rates so low for the elderly? Doesn’t that show that they’ve actually been neglected?" Don't other countries also have this issue where elderly people refuse to get vaccinated? It's the same problem that every government in the world has to face, of how to get their elderly people vaccinated.
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@kammonkam4905 "Yeah look at how Confucian Singapore handles it." Firstly, Singapore only has a population of 5 million, whereas Shanghai has 25 million, so how can you compare Singapore with Shanghai? Secondly, Singapore isn't fully ethnic Chinese, they have other races like Malays, Indians and Eurasians, so how can you claim Singapore is Confucian?
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@kammonkam4905 "It is "Confucianism with China characteristics", namely talk about valuing lives but do the opposite." Confucius literally IS Chinese, what's this "Confucianism with China characteristics" you are talking about? And how is China not valuing the lives of elderly people by pursuing this dynamic zero Covid policy?
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@kammonkam4905 "I am sure the policy results in a lot more deaths and suffering than what the virus does." Do you have evidence that the dynamic zero Covid policy results in a lot more deaths than what the virus does? Thanks to the zero Covid Policy, China has limited the number of Covid deaths to just 4 thousand out of a country of 1 billion.
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@AnbenK It's tragic that people died due to not being able to go to the hospital, but can you imagine how many more elderly people would die if Covid-19 cases surged in Shanghai?
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@Arag0n You can always resume making money once Covid-19 cases fall to acceptable levels. But once the elderly lose their lives to Covid, then no amount of money will bring those lives back.
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@kammonkam4905 Just because only 1 person died and over 90% infected, doesn't mean that more people will die in the future. As the number of cases rises in Shanghai, it's inevitable that more deaths (especially elderly) will follow. Vast majority of deaths are in nursing homes, but the doctors, nurses, caregivers, staff, etc still have to go out right? And older folk also live outside of nursing homes, so are you saying the government should neglect those elderly as well?
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou I will accept those numbers for argument's sake" So where's your proof that policy "results in a lot more deaths" than the virus? Also, what do you mean earlier variants were not very transmissible? Delta variant and earlier variants had high transmissiblity and that's why the zero Covid policy was conceived. And the zero covid policy worked in places like Shenzhen (even with omicron variant) so what makes you claim that it won't work now?
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou No, we have the resources," Once again, the issue is not the lack of resources, it's the inadequate logistical distribution. Many Shanghai residents clearly have the money to buy food, it's just that the trouble arises from getting the food to them. So it's not a matter of lacking resources, but lacking the logistical infrastructure.
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@kammonkam4905 "Mao's ghost still hasn't died." Chairman Mao Zedong is the founding father of the People's Republic of China 🇨🇳 and he succeeded in the herculean task of reunifying our divided country where the previous Nationalist Kuomintang failed during the Republic of China 🇹🇼 (1912-1949) for 37 years. When Dr Sun Zhongshan overthrew the previous Qing Dynasty China and established "democratic" Republic of China, China was divided into several areas, we lost control of Tibet, and various warlords ruled different parts of China and even Japan invaded China twice during this weak period of Chinese history. Dr. Sun tried to get help from the Western powers, but they laughed at the thought of China copying their democracy. They even gave away the Shandong province (which had been occupied by the Germans during WWI) to Japan, instead of returning it to China (even when China was part of the Allies during WWI). In the end, Dr. Sun died without ever realising a unified China under democracy. But then Mao Zedong came along, and he accomplished what the ROC could not, and reunifed China under communism, proclaiming the People's Republic of China in 1949 and Tibet was finally returned back to China in 1951. If not for Mao Zedong, China today would still be weak and divided country, fighting among ourselves, instead of the strong unified country we are today.
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou Are you seriously trying to debate whether Omi is a lot more transmissible than all the other variants before?" No, I'm debating what you said earlier when you said: "It was possible to contain the virus before because the variants were not very transmissive," Are you strawmanning my argument to become about whether Omicron is a lot more transmissible? Nursing homes is one thing, but how about those elderly folk living at home with their family outside of nursing homes? Elderly folk live everywhere in Shanghai not just limited to nursing homes, and their lives are just as important as elderly living in those homes. 1 person died could just be the tip of the iceberg. 90% don't have symptoms doesn't mean that elderly people aren't vulnerable to the virus all the same. Asymptomatic people can still unknowingly spread the virus to elderly folk, so can't China take necessary measures to curb the spread?
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@kammonkam4905 "Yes there is always a chance that it might take some unexpected turn but there is also a chance that some more deadly virus may be lurking (cov is not the only virus) or some other disasters may be waiting." All the more reason China should observe a zero covid policy in order to minimize such a risk. The more transmission of the viruse, the more chances of a newer, deadly strain mutating. China has the world's largest population so the chances of a newer, more virulent and deadly strain emerging is higher. Just like the Delta variant originated in India, who knows if a more deadly variant might emerge from China if the virus was allowed to spread rampantly. You said: "You may get hit by a car and die if you go out. Death by traffic accidents is higher than cov" This is the fallacy of false equivalence that you are employing and you're literally comparing apples to oranges here. Why introduce unrelated comparisons in your attempts to derail the discussion?
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@kammonkam4905 "Yes there is always a chance that it might take some unexpected turn but there is also a chance that some more deadly virus may be lurking (cov is not the only virus) or some other disasters may be waiting." All the more reason China should observe a zero covid policy in order to minimize such a risk. The more transmission of the viruse, the more chances of a newer, deadly strain mutating. China has the world's largest population so the chances of a newer, more virulent and deadly strain emerging is higher. You said: "You may get hit by a car and die if you go out. Death by traffic accidents is higher than cov" This is the fallacy of false equivalence that you are employing and you're literally comparing apples to oranges here. Why introduce unrelated comparisons in your attempts to derail the discussion?
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou What are Xi's credentials in infectious diseases, virology and epidemiology?" As far as I know, President Xi is the only world leader to actually heed the World Health Organization's advice. Virtually all other world leaders are ignoring the WHO's advice, despite the WHO being the world's leading authority on infectious diseases, virology and epidemiology. The question should be why are other world leaders ignoring the WHO's advice?
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou the old folks living alone at home are dying because they can't get medicine and medical care in lockdown." Ultimately, that's a problem of logistics and volunteers in China are helping deliver medical supplies and food to elderly living alone at home. But imagine if these old folks contract Covid-19 from unsuspecting asymptomatic people, which could have been avoided through lockdown.
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@kammonkam4905 Did the WHO ever said lockdowns don't work? Dr. David Nabarro said that his comments were "taken totally out of context" and that the WHO position is consistent.
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@kammonkam4905 It's clearly an apple and orange comparison, because you're applying the fallacy of false equivalence. If somehow, humans managed to reduce the risk of dying from traffic accident to zero, then there would be a comparison. But with Covid-19, other Chinese cities like Shenzhen had successfully reopened after lockdown, so this proves that you can indeed reduce case to zero (at least in China).
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@kammonkam4905 You know, earlier you said: "I am sure the policy results in a lot more deaths and suffering than what the virus does." but I'm still waiting for you to prove that more than 4k people died precisely because of the policy rather than the virus itself. So far, it just seems you throw fallacies at me instead of using logical arguments.
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou You keep going back to previous waves but i have replied many times that those are irrelevant." How are those irrelevant? You said: "It was possible to contain the virus before because the variants were not very transmissive," but I asked "what do you mean earlier variants were not very transmissible?" and you did not explain anything. Delta variant and earlier variants had high transmissiblity and that's why the zero Covid policy was conceived.
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@kammonkam4905 "The world has learned that months ago." Most of the developed world has literally given up, and just allow their elderly folk to die, then why should China blindly follow the path the developed world is taking? You're just expecting to copy what other countries are doing and just apply it to China and expect it to work?
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@topherno Because contrary to popular world opinion, China doesn't have a vaccine mandate. Some elderly have medical conditions or a fear of taking the vaccine. The fact that 62% elderly are unvaccinated means that Shanghai needs to implement lockdown to prevent more deaths of elderly due to Covid-19.
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@zyp85 "神州 Shenzhou Whataboutism at its finest." You're referring to yourself right? Since you're the one who suddenly bring up tobacco sale when this has nothing to do with it?
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@Jordan18561 China with our population of 1.4 billion, has to vaccine 4x the population of the United States at 300 million, so can you really expect China to vaccinate our population? Furthermore, the United States is home to the largest number Covid-19 cases, that's one reason why their elderly have an impetus to get vaccinated. Whereas China's zero Covid policy has kept the number of deaths low, which is probably why some elderly in China don't feel the need to vaccinate.
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@UCLBnd7C3hbXujlWc3-VtSXw "神州 Shenzhou Hahaha, the elderly in China die from lockdown for not being able to go to hospitals and get medicine." Are you now laughing at the elderly in China dying? The coronavirus has the potential to spread uncontrolled throughout Shanghai, and potentially many more elderly will die so lockdown is the best course of action at the moment. "Also, people die. If you are 98 years old with a long list of diseases maybe you'll die anyway even without cov." But if there's a opportunity to prolong an elderly persons' life by not exposing him/her necessarily to Covid, then can't China take those precautions? I get the feeling that you don't really care about the elderly in China, as long as you can use them as an excuse to attack China's political leaders it seems.
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@UCLBnd7C3hbXujlWc3-VtSXw "神州 Shenzhou Hahaha, the elderly in China die from lockdown for not being able to go to hospitals and get medicine." Are you now laughing at the elderly in China dying? The coronavirus has the potential to spread uncontrolled throughout Shanghai, and potentially many more elderly will die so lockdown is the best course of action at the moment.
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@kammonkam4905 Are you now laughing at the elderly in China dying? The coronavirus has the potential to spread uncontrolled throughout Shanghai, and potentially many more elderly will die so lockdown is the best course of action at the moment. "Also, people die. If you are 98 years old with a long list of diseases maybe you'll die anyway even without cov." But if there's a opportunity to prolong an elderly persons' life by not exposing him/her necessarily to Covid, then can't China take those precautions? I get the feeling that you don't really care about the elderly in China, as long as you can use them as an excuse to attack China's political leaders it seems.
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@kammonkam4905 Are you now laughing at the elderly in China dying? The coronavirus has the potential to spread uncontrolled throughout Shanghai, and potentially many more elderly will die so lockdown is the best course of action at the moment.
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou Hahaha, the elderly in China die from lockdown..." Are you now laughing at the elderly in China dying?
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@kammonkam4905 Again, you keep hinting that the zero Covid policy killed more people than the virus does: (i.e you said: "I am sure the policy results in a lot more deaths and suffering than what the virus does.") but where's your proof? Where's your proof that more than 4k people have been killed because of Zero Covid policy than the virus?
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou I don't believe the zero cov policy is about protecting the elderly since it is doing the opposite." How? If Covid-19 is allowed to spread rampant towards China, then more elderly people will die isn't it?
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@kammonkam4905 "The mean age of covid death in the U.K., for example, is older than the country's life expectancy." The UK's life expectancy is 81.20 years (2019), so you're saying the mean age of Covid deaths in the U.K is older than 81 years? That's horrifying!
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@kammonkam4905 Other countries in the world have also changed their definition of what constitutes a Covid-19 case too, and China is not the only one doing this. In Shanghai the latest figure is 7 deaths from Covid, so it appears that the number of deaths is increasing, so imagine how much worse it would be if Shanghai did not enter lockdown as planned. Of those 3 categories, (1) and (2) represent deaths occurring because of Covid, so if China had the opportunity to stop those people from getting Covid (i.e Zero Covid Policy) then can't China take this precaution? So do you have evidence of China using a strict criteria for deaths in (2)? Or evidence that the U.S has been too generous to inflate the number? Otherwise, these are just your own speculations that's all.
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@kammonkam4905 In Shanghai the latest figure is 7 Covid deaths, so the number is gradually increasing, so imagine how much worse it would be if Shanghai did not enter lockdown as planned. Of those 3 categories, (1) and (2) represent deaths occurring because of Covid, so if China had the opportunity to stop those people from getting Covid (i.e Zero Covid Policy) then can't China take this precaution? So do you have evidence of China using a strict criteria for deaths in (2)? Or evidence that the U.S has been too generous to inflate the number? Otherwise, these are just your own speculations that's all.
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@kammonkam4905 The latest figure for Shanghai is 7 deaths, so the number is gradually increasing, so can you imagine how much worst it would be if Shanghai didn't enter lockdown as planned?
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@kammonkam4905 Of those 3 categories, 1 and 2 represent deaths occurring because of Covid, so if China had the opportunity to stop those people from getting Covid (i.e Zero Covid Policy) then can't China take this precaution? Also do you have evidence of China using a strict criteria for deaths? Otherwise it just appears to be your own speculation without proof.
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@kammonkam4905 Of those 3 categories, if China had the opportunity to stop those people from getting Covid (i.e Zero Covid Policy) then can't China take this precaution? Also do you have evidence of China using a strict criteria for deaths? Otherwise it just appears to be your own speculation without proof.
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@kammonkam4905 Also, why were you laughing at the elderly in China dying?
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@kammonkam4905 So if the mainland experts were advising Hong Kong, then what makes you seem to think those mainland experts don't do the same for Beijing? No matter how mild you think Omicron is, death is still death. Can't China pursue a strategy that will minimise unnecessary deaths from Covid? Like I said, once the elderly lost their lives, no amount of money can bring their lives back.
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@kammonkam4905 I mean, earlier you mention nursing homes, that the residents don't leave those homes even though the doctors, nurses, staff, etc do. If those nursing staff fall sick until there's a shortage of staff, then who's going to take care of the elderly in those homes? And how about those elderly living outside of those homes? Aren't those lives just as important as those in those homes?
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@kammonkam4905 You've repeatedly said that the policy allegedly does more harm than the virus, but where's your actual proof?
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou Then just test the staff and whoever enter the nursing homes." It's not as simple as you make it out to be. If enough nursing staff tested positive then there'll be shortage of nursing staff to tend to those resident. And you still haven't answered what about those elderly living outside of those homes, you really think you're fit to govern Shanghai, a city of 26 million people, with such simplistic thinking?
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@kammonkam4905 While it's tragic that elderly may not get access to medication, like I said earlier, imagine how much worst it will be if Shanghai had not entered lockdown as planned. So I take it you have no actual proof that the policy harms more than the virus itself? Also if elderly have other existing medical issues, then isn't preventing their exposure to the virus a necessary precaution?
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@kammonkam4905 Shortage of nursing staff occurs when people test positive and are unable to care for elderly in the home. By locking down, the staff get minimise contact with outside and are less likely to test positive because of exposure.
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou The lockdown has been how long now? 3 weeks?" That's already far shorter then the Wuhan lockdown that lasted the 2 months, so Shanghai's case is not the longest, if judging by your standards. But imagine how many elderly lives are saved thanks to the Shanghai lockdown.
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@kammonkam4905 I'm still waiting for your actual evidence that the policy "results in a lot more deaths" than the virus. It's like you don't even have proof of your claims, yet you're behaving like an "armchair governor" thinking that you can govern a city of 26 million better than the actual Shanghai governor.
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@kammonkam4905 I'm still waiting for your actual evidence that the policy "results in a lot more deaths" than the virus. It's like you're behaving like an "armchair governor" thinking that you can govern a city of 26 million better than the actual Shanghai governor.
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@kammonkam4905 You've repeatedly said that the policy allegedly does more harm than the virus, but where's your actual proof?
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@kammonkam4905 I am simply asking for proof to substantiate your claim that the policy results in a lot more deaths than the virus, and thus far, you've provided none. I've acknowledged that there have been elderly denied access to medication, but that's a problem of logistics and can be solved through better distribution networks in Shanghai. But imagine how worst it would be if Shanghai did not enter lockdown as planned.
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@Jordan18561 Contrary to popular world opinion, China does not enforce a vaccine mandate, so elderly people in China may choose not to vaccinate, either for medical reasons or simply out of fear of the vaccines. This is in contrast to Western countries like Canada where there are truckers protesting over compulsory vaccine mandates. Another reason is that China has contained Covid-19 so well, that many elderly don't really see the need to vaccinate, whereas in USA there is high elderly vaccination rate, because the U.S government allowed the virus to spread uncontrollably, so it's possible that elderly Americans feel the need to vaccinate.
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@Swarmpope Which young is being sacrificed? Who is going to teach the young if the old are gone?
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@Jordan18561 Right now, the priority is to reduce the surge in Covid cases in Shanghai. Vaccinating the elderly takes months to develop sufficient levels of antibodies, so the best course of action is lockdown Shanghai in order to reduce the number of cases. Loss of income is regrettable, but money can already be earned again. Whereas lost of lives cannot be undone.
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@kammonkam4905 China has 5000 years of history and is among the world's oldest "continuous" civilization still alive today, whereas other ancient civilizations like Mesopotamia, Rome and Egypt have since succumbed to history. China has witnessed the birth and death of various other nations, the rise and fall of numerous other empires, yet China has survived the violent passage of time to modern times relatively intact, whereas even Rome eventually crumbled. China has always been under the authoritarian rule (and we still are today) of emperors and the imperial court, because that's how China has been successfully governed for millennia. Not all countries have to adopt Western democracy to be successful and China is living proof of this.
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@Jordan18561 Most East Asian countries like Japan, Korea, as well as South East Asian countries have a culture of smoking and it's difficult to wean off. Smoking is a generation habit, and the way to tackle it is to educate the young to be aware of its harmful effects.
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou How pathetic is it that Chinese still mouth off Confucius in 2022 with pride?" Confucianism is part and parcel of Chinese culture, can't Chinese take pride in our culture? Confucius teachings have spread across Asia since 500 BC and even the First Chinese Emperor, Qin Shihuangdi, tried to eliminate Confucian teachings and scholars, yet the philosophy has survived for thousands of years to modern times. Then can't Chinese take pride in our cultural heritage?
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@kammonkam4905 Chinese scholars have been recording history and our historical archives have the names of all 600+ rulers of China, dating all the way back to the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors (三皇五帝) (2852–2070 BC). Here's a list of leaders during that period: 3162–2962 BC Yǒucháo (有巢) 2962–2852 BC Suìrén (燧人) 2852–2737 BC Fúxī (伏羲) 2737–2698 BC Yándì (炎帝) 2698–2598 BC Huángdì (黃帝) 2597–2514 BC Shǎohào (少昊) 2514–2436 BC Zhuānxū (顓頊) 2436–2366 BC Dìkù (帝嚳) 2366–2358 BC Dìzhì (帝摯) 2356–2255 BC Dìyáo or Táng Yáo (帝堯 / 唐堯) 2255–2208 BC Dìshùn or Yú Shùn (帝舜 / 虞舜) ... Then there's rulers of Xia dynasty (夏朝) (2070–1600 BC) 2150–2106 BC Yǔ (禹) 2106–2077 BC Qǐ (啟 2077–2048 BC Kāng (康 2048–2036 BC Kāng (康) 2036–2008 BC Xiāng (相) .... (the rest of China's history) ... Egypt and Mesopotamia are also ancient civilizations with their own forms of writting like Egyptian Hieroglyphs and Sumerian Cuneiform respectively. Likewise, Chinese characters have been in use since 1200 BC and constitute among the oldest continuously used system of writing in the world. Even today, Mandarin Chinese is the most spoken language in the world by number of speakers, whereas Egyptian Hieroglyphs and Sumerian Cuneiform are "dead" languages and have since fallen into disuse.
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@kammonkam4905 It was the Mongolian Kublai Khan (descendant of Genghis Khan) that choose to abandon his Mongolian nomadic ways and adopt Han Chinese culture, proclaiming himself Emperor of Yuan Dynasty China. The Manchu conquerors of China also eventually assimilated into Chinese culture during the Qing Dynasty. Otherwise, why are those dynasties known as Yuan 元 and Qing 清 instead of just Mongolian Empire and Manchu Empire?
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@kammonkam4905 The Yellow Emperor and other rulers are part of Chinese history regardless, so how am I wrong in saying that China has 5,000 years of history? At one stage, the Shang 商 Dynasty (1600 - 1046 BC) was also considered mythical, until the uncovering of archaeological evidence like the Oracle Bone script during scientific excavations during the 1920s and 1930s, proved that the Shang Dynasty was real and not myth. The Xia 夏 Dynasty (2070 - 1600 BC) is largely considered mythical today, but in 2016, scientists had found evidence of a catastrophic flood that overwhelmed the upper Yellow River valley in China some 4,000 years ago, which could serve as evidence that the Xia Dynasty really existed. Archaeological excavations are always ongoing and uncovering more evidence of China's past that could lend truth to myth, so just because there's no evidence now, doesn't mean there won't be in the future.
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@kammonkam4905 But the Yuan Dynasty is still Chinese, they literally call themselves Yuan 元 Dynasty instead of Mongolian Empire. Kublai Khan choose to abandon his nomadic Mongolian ways and sleep under a permanent shelter in the Chinese Palace. Whereas Genghis Khan purportedly never slept under a permanent shelter his entire life. During the Republic of China 🇹🇼 (1912-1949) they may have regarded Manchurians as foreigners, but today under the People's Republic of China 🇨🇳, Manchu are one of the 55 ethnic groups in China.
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@Jordan18561 You're comparing apples to oranges (just like kammon kam) if you think that you can compare smoking with Covid-19, or traffic accidents with Covid-19, this is the fallacy of false equivalence that people use because they can't refute the points brought up.
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@kammonkam4905 The Yellow Emperor story wasn't constructed later. Before the invention of writing, people pass down stories orally, through stories passed down from generation to generation and that's how history was recorded before the invention of writing. Once again, I'm saying that what people consider myth today, might turn out to be true in the future once archaeological evidence is uncovered. The Shang Dynasty was once mythical until the 1920s when excavations uncovered evidence. Likewise the Xia Dynasty is considered myth, but there's some archaeological evidence uncovered in 2016.
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@kammonkam4905 The Yuan was Chinese, for reasons stated above. Kublai Khan abandoned his nomadic traditions and slept under a permanent roof in the Chinese palace, whereas Genghis Khan purportedly never slept under a permanent roof his entire life. And while the Romans copied a lot from the Greeks, but the Chinese are still Chinese, so what's your comparison?
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou Yeah right all creation myths were passed down orally at some point by story tellers so they must all be historical." You're deliberately twisting my words. I'm saying that before the invention of writing, people passed down their history orally (that was how they remembered history) so the Yellow Emperor story wasn't constructed after the invention of writing. And what's considered myth today, might turn out to be real once archaeological evidence is uncovered in the future. In the 1900s, Shang Dynasty was a myth until 1920s when excavations revealed Shang Dynasty archaeological evidence. Likewise, in 2016, there's archaeological evidence of a massive flood that might prove the existence of the Xia Dynasty.
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@kammonkam4905 When the Mongols conquered China during Yuan Dynasty, much of the running of the empire fell on the shoulders of Han Chinese. For example, who grows the food needed to feed the Empire? The Mongols were nomads who lived off the land, so it was left to Han farmers to grow food to feed the empire. -Who planned the towns and built houses during Yuan dynasty? The Mongols lived in temporary housing (yurts) their entire lives, so it was up to the Han architects and builders to construct permanent roofs over citizens heads. -Who tended to the administrative duties of the empire? The Mongols know hardly anything about bureaucracy, so it was left to Han bureaucrats to ensure the day-to-day affairs of the Yuan Dynasty was kept running smoothly. The Mongols were nomadic tribesmen who conquered and plundered other nations, it was Han that ensured the Empire was running smoothly.
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou I don't see how women were subujated in Western history or today has anything to do with the conversation." Did I ever said women were subjugated in Western history or today? I just pointed out it was occurring all throughout the ancient world, during the period when Confucius lived. "It is you who said that Confucianism is the core of Chinese-ness we must embrace it" When did I ever said this? I never even used the word "core" at all in this post, so why are you putting words in my mouth?
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@Jordan18561 Because you're comparing apples to oranges, that's why it's the fallacy of false equivalence. I've already explained it above in one of my posts to kammon kam.
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@kammonkam4905 The Mongol Kublai Khan had proclaimed himself Emperor of China, and he adopted Han culture, sleeping under a permanent roof in the Imperial Palace, unlike Genghis Khan who was nomadic. But in truth, the Mongols didn't know how to grow food to feed the empire, how to build permanent houses, how to run the empire, so it was left to Han farmers, builders and bureacrats to continue running the Yuan Dynasty. So Yuan was run by Chinese.
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou 'Might turned out to be real' is not real." Again, the Shang Dynasty was initially considered not real during 1900s and earlier. But in 1920s and 1930s, archaeological evidence proved that the Shang Dynasty existed. And in 2016 (just 8 years ago) archaeological evidence of massive flooding that occurred 4000 years ago during the Xia Dynasty adds credence to the existence of that dynasty. It's like you can't refute my points, so you just make fun of my points instead of seriously countering my arguments.
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@Jordan18561 This is what I wrote to kammon kam: "It's clearly an apple and orange comparison, because you're applying the fallacy of false equivalence. If somehow, humans managed to reduce the risk of dying from traffic accident to zero, then there would be a comparison. But with Covid-19, other Chinese cities like Shenzhen had successfully reopened after lockdown, so this proves that you can indeed reduce case to zero (at least in China)."
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@Jordan18561 "神州 Shenzhou I asked specifically about smoking. Is this a false equivalency?" Yes, it's a false equivalency.
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou hahaha I am Chinese but I can't stand nationalistic bs from anyone, Chinese included though not exclusively. I also can't stand U.S nationalism." Which country are you from? Isn't nationalism is the glue that holds the people of a nation together? America has patriotic slogans like "America First!", "Make America Great Again!", "God Bless the United States!" because who else is going to believe in America if not the people? If Americans themselves lose hope in USA, then it's spells the end of the country without nationalism You said: "I treat China just like any county. I praise it for what it does right such as trying to eliminate poverty and I criticize what it does wrong." But who is to define what is "right" and "wrong" for China? China is pursing a course that it deems correct, and is making corrections if necessary. It is China's deeds (i.e eliminating poverty) that speak for itself. But deeds take time to yield results. Over 40 years ago, people would laugh if China proposed eliminating poverty, but fast forward today, and China is on track to become a moderately prosperous society by perhaps 2030.
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou so there was a flood so Noah's Ark was real? Now you sound like an evangelical Christian." Why do you keep on misinterpreting my words? I never said anything about Noah's Ark, you just throw in Noah's Ark in order to derail my argument, which is about the 2016 uncovering of geological evidence of a flood that occurred 4,000 years ago, possibly lending credence to the existence of the mythical Xia Dynasty. The geological evidence is published on 2016 in NatGeo: Geologic Evidence May Support Chinese Flood Legend. Yet you're now comparing me to an evangelical Christian, when I'm citing scientific articles? I also pointed out Shang Dynasty was once considered mythical in 1900s, until archaelogical excavations in 1920s and 1930s proved its existence. I'm merely saying that what is considered myth today, may become truth tomorrow if sufficient archaeological evidence is uncovered. But you seemingly can't refute my point, so you bring up Noah's Ark again and again, and try and superimpose it onto Xia Dynasty.
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou so there was a flood so Noah's Ark was real? Now you sound like an evangelical Christian." Why do you keep on misinterpreting my words? I never said anything about Noah's Ark, you just throw in Noah's Ark in order to derail my argument, which is about the 2016 uncovering of geological evidence of a flood that occurred 4,000 years ago, possibly lending credence to the existence of the mythical Xia Dynasty. I also pointed out Shang Dynasty was once considered mythical in 1900s, until archaelogical excavations in 1920s and 1930s proved its existence. I'm merely saying that what is considered myth today, may become truth tomorrow if sufficient archaeological evidence is uncovered.
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@kammonkam4905 You said: " I think Xi is a pompous, uneducated windbag with a big chip on his shoulder who is also a control freak, a very bad combination" You said he's pompous, but could you elaborate why? There's plenty of videos of President Xi being down to earth, such as visiting poor villages in Shaanxi, Sichuan, Zhejiang, and inquiring with local villagers on the poverty alleviation efforts. Having come from a background of being sent to work in the countryside, Xi understands how the poor people feel and vows to make life better for the people. Xi Jinping's education was cut short by the Cultural Revolution. The misfortunes and suffering of his family in his early years hardened Xi's view of politics. During an interview in 2000, he said, "People who have little contact with power, who are far from it, always see these things as mysterious and novel. But what I see is not just the superficial things: the power, the flowers, the glory, the applause. I see the bullpens and how people can blow hot and cold. I understand politics on a deeper level." From 1998 to 2002, Xi studied Marxist theory and ideological education in Tsinghua University, graduating from there with a doctorate in law and ideology in 2002. A windbag? Xi has around 30-40 years of political experience, having rose through the communist ranks and governed over several cities and provinces of China. The Belt and Road Initiative was Xi's birth child, attempting to connect China to Europe (and the countries in between) in order to provide development to those landlocked countries, as well as project China's influence throughout Eurasia. A chip on his shoulder? Against whom or what does Xi hold a grudge against?
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou The Romans copied almost everything from the Greeks..." What is your point when you keep on bringing up Romans and Greeks? It's like you can't refute my point about Yuan Dynasty being Chinese (for reasons stated above) and you are trying to use Romans and Greeks to derail my argument (like what you did with Noah's Ark). You want to publish a paper about Romans and Greeks, then be my guest, why are you telling me all this just because you can't refute my point about Yuan Dynasty?
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou You are quite dense, aren't you?" More insults. The Romans called their empire the Roman Empire, but Kublai Khan called their empire Yuan (元) Dynasty instead of the Mongolian Empire. I've already explained in detail above how Yuan was Chinese, but you can't refute my points so you just bring up Romans and Greeks and tried to derail the discussion.
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@kammonkam4905 What's the name of this 98 years old woman you spoke of?
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@Jordan18561 You asked: " Is this a false equivalency?" and I replied: "Yes, it's a false equivalency."
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou So the Romans copying the Greeks wholesale didn't make them Greeks, but the Mongolians were Chinese even though the Yuan dynasty treated Chinese legally as third and forth class citizens," Did I ever said that the Mongols were Chinese? I did said Yuan Dynasty was Chinese, but did I ever said the Mongols were Chinese? Could you please quote me my words saying Mongols were Chinese? "because they used the word "Yuan" (which could be a translation from Mongolian by Chinese historians, they had their own writing system)" Do you have proof it was a translation from Mongolian? In 1271, Kublai Khan imposed the name Great Yuan (大元) establishing the Yuan dynasty. "Dà Yuán" (大元) is from the clause "大哉乾元" (Great is Qián, the Primal') in the Commentaries 《十翼》 on the Classic of Changes 《易經》 section regarding the first hexagram Qián (乾). Mongolia (or Outer Mongolia) today uses mostly the cyrillic alphabet imported from Russia, whereas Inner Mongolia in China has preserved the Mongolian written language among the ethnic Mongols living in the region. "According to your logic Japanese are Chinese too," You have this habit of constantly twisting my words again. All I said was that Yuan Dynasty was Chinese, when did I ever said Japanese or Mongols are Chinese? You literally can't refute my original point, so you constantly try and derail the topic.
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@kammonkam4905 "神州 Shenzhou My bad, she is 94 instead of 98." What's the name of this 94 year old woman? Shanghai is so big and there are so many elderly living there. "I can't post the link or any Chinese search string or YT deletes my reply." I can post Chinese characters just fine. If YT deletes your reply, does that mean that censorship does exist even on a Western platform like YT?
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@Jordan18561 You too.
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"神州 Shenzhou so there was a flood so Noah's Ark was real? Now you sound like an evangelical Christian." Why do you keep on misinterpreting my words? I never said anything about Noah's Ark, you just throw in Noah's Ark in order to derail my argument, which is about the 2016 uncovering of geological evidence of a flood that occurred 4,000 years ago, possibly lending credence to the existence of the mythical Xia Dynasty. The geological evidence is published on 2016 in NatGeo: Geologic Evidence May Support Chinese Flood Legend. Yet you're now comparing me to an evangelical Christian, when I'm citing scientific articles? I also pointed out Shang Dynasty was once considered mythical in 1900s, until archaelogical excavations in 1920s and 1930s proved its existence. I'm merely saying that what is considered myth today, may become truth tomorrow if sufficient archaeological evidence is uncovered. But you seemingly can't refute my point, so you bring up Noah's Ark again and again, and try and superimpose it onto Xia Dyna
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"神州 Shenzhou so there was a flood so Noah's Ark was real? Now you sound like an evangelical Christian." Why do you keep on misinterpreting my words? I never said anything about Noah's Ark, you just throw in Noah's Ark in order to derail my argument, which is about the 2016 uncovering of geological evidence of a flood that occurred 4,000 years ago, possibly lending credence to the existence of the mythical Xia Dynasty. The geological evidence is published on 2016 in NatGeo: Geologic Evidence May Support Chinese Flood Legend. Yet you're now comparing me to an evangelical Christian, when I'm citing scientific articles? I also pointed out Shang Dynasty was once considered mythical in 1900s, until archaelogical excavations in 1920s and 1930s proved its existence. I'm merely saying that what is considered myth today, may become truth tomorrow if sufficient archaeological evidence is uncovered. But you seemingly can't refute my point, so you bring up Noah's Ark again and again, and try and superimpose it onto Xia Dyna
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"神州 Shenzhou so there was a flood so Noah's Ark was real? Now you sound like an evangelical Christian." Why do you keep on misinterpreting my words? I never said anything about Noah's Ark, you just throw in Noah's Ark in order to derail my argument, which is about the 2016 uncovering of geological evidence of a flood that occurred 4,000 years ago, possibly lending credence to the existence of the mythical Xia Dynasty. The geological evidence is published on 2016 in NatGeo: Geologic Evidence May Support Chinese Flood Legend. Yet you're now comparing me to an evangelical Christian, when I'm citing scientific articles? I also pointed out Shang Dynasty was once considered mythical in 1900s, until archaelogical excavations in 1920s and 1930s proved its existence. I'm merely saying that what is considered myth today, may become truth tomorrow if sufficient archaeological evidence is uncovered.
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@wwind20 "It is ture but I guess the healthy issue and death caused directly by lockdown already overwhelm the death caused by virus itself," Where's your evidence that deaths caused directly by lockdown already overwhelm the deaths caused by the virus? Can you imagine how much worst the situation would be if Shanghai had not entered lockdown as planned?
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