Comments by "Ikenga Spirit" (@ikengaspirit3063) on "Let’s Make 4 African Empires." video.
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@kolawaleojomo6817
"If y'all are so united, why was your land the only place where the Brits had to employ individuals to be local rulers over your towns? In the north and west, there were already established monarchies"
I was referring to ethnic Identity not political Identity. For example then HRE, Napoleonic and Prussian conquest in Germany dealt with a people that by their own and their neighbours own admission were the same ethnic group. But until the Prussian came along they were ruled by a multitude of Kings and dukes that each successive overlord had to negotiate individually with.
Or what about the Arab? Texts from the early and just before the Islamic conquests show clear signs that they saw themselves as a single people divided into 2 broad lineages ultimately originating in Yemen. Even when some Northern Arabs dominated over the very early Caliphate we see Southern Arab tribes complain about it in language acknowleding that common heritage.
An this wasn't something fueled by the new religion, Christian tribes like the Tayy, Ghassan or Salirids were quickly incorporated fully into the Arab armies without having to convert while when berbers mass converted, they were still treated differently from Arabs.
Until the Islamic Caliphate there was no Political unity among Arabs, but their ethnic unity existed far before that and the same applies to the Igbo.
"Was it not your vaunted democracy-like system y'all were operating? Do you think democracies make good empires? Look at the Greeks and see. You may say that the US is such an example, however it's circumstances and unique in history."
Fine, I won't call the greeks but what about the Romans? All their greatest conquest like against Pontus or Carthage was during the Roman Republic Phase.
Or the British that from the Killing of the Tyrant King Charles only of more and more powerful until WWII.
Or the Rashidun Caliphate that did most of the conquering of Rome and Persia selected the Caliph through a process that translates from the Arabic as "Deliberation", so like the respected men of the Islamic community voting for a leader.
Anyway, from my perspective Empires are highly overrated and I don't care for them.
"Was it not the terrible civil war that instilled some semblance of unity amongst your people? "
The civil war certainly helped but it was the work of Igbo anthropologists and historians in the 40s that cemented the fluid and fuzzy boundaries of Igbo Identity.
"I have Igbo friends, and they tell me y'all have rivalries amongst yourselves. You have towns not considered Igbo because of variations in dialect and customs."
And vice versa with Yoruba. I hear it is even so strong there that people identify primarily as Ijebu or Oyo rather than Yoruba while in O'odua. At least, Igbos still identify primarily as Igbos in the East. Hell, my pastor in North always identifies as Ijebu first not Yoruba, so are Yorubas now a manufactured ethnicity?.
And it is more the civil war that caused both a Fragmentation and transformation of Igbo Identity from an ethnic one to a nationalistic one.
"forest and swamp and more forest. Do you think that is land capable of sustaining an empire?" Let me see, Portuguese Brazil, Southern China, Sirivijaya, Majapahit, Khmer Empire etc all Empires formed in similar climate so that argument doesn't hold.
"How would fast communication be possible?"
Rivers.
"What about the tropical diseases that still plague our peoples? "
Natives medicines like Kola.
And upon all that, Eastern region from population estimates by whites had a population comparable to Egypt of the time so we managed.
"do you think that an empire could have arisen in such an environment?"
With the right organizational changes yes. Aro has its network of influence all over the place, with enough time and some culture change it was workable.
Also the main issue with forging Empires is population, Alaigbo definately had the required population and population density.
But even if the answer is no, the argument of the video is "an Igbo Empire" this doesn't necessarily mean an Empire from Alaigb but as we have seen with the Diodochi greek Empires could mean elites of the Igbo ethnicity relocating to the Imperial core and ruling there with there ethnic and non-ethnic similar loyals.
"Even the Oyo empire I talk about so much wasn't an empire in the western idea of the word"
And? Same applies to the later Iranian Empires like the Sassanids.
"And I'm also saying that as no one could conquer such land at the time"
I actually agree on this. The Sahelian and Northern Nigerian Empires wouldn't have been able to conquer it but I view Nigeria kinda like India. The Sokoto were the first but after some trial and error of learning and especially if with a dynasty origination further south and thus with godd knowledge of the terrian's warfare it could have happened and thank God it didn't.
"Do you think we Yoruba would sit and let you rule us? Or do you think we'd try such without rebellions popping up like mushrooms?"
Stop talking like nationalism and current Nigerian Ethnic rivalries existed centuries ago.
Ibadan didn't fall to the Sokoto Caliphate they welcomed them in and Benin conquered Yoruba borderland.
As long as some hypothetical Igbo rulers aren't a tyrannts, nobody would complain.
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"Igbo society is very much based in the tribal chieftains and local communities with very little sense of a greater igbo identity beyond linguistic until the Colonial era, In fact a lot of Slaves came from the frequent infighting within and between Igbo communities. This led to them having the lowest population of the Big 3 in Nigeria (Hausa, Yoruba and Igbo respectively)"
The Igbo people didn't really have tribal Chieftains. It was mostly imported from their neighbours or due to stress and the Chieftaincy system there now is mostly a British thing, imported by the Europeans theories on how societies formed.
There was a sense of a greater Igbo identity just wasn't solid. Literate Igbo writers several times over showed this, Olaudah Equiano called his people part of the Igbo in his late 1700s book, so did later converted Igbo missionaries. Yes the identity was much softer than it is today but it was there and the same thing applied to the Igbo as well.
"In contrast to that the Yoruba and Hausa operated highly urban traditional iron age kingdoms with warrior aristocracies and complex institutions of state power. The Hausa however after becoming muslim and gaining access to european firearms became very expansionist and swallowed many smaller communities. As the Sooto Caliphate, They had 2 major wars with the Yoruba in the 17th Century and almost conquered the Oyo Empire."
And? You say this like the Igbos weren't Iron age as well. Lejja the first Iron work site in Nigeria is literally in core Igbo country. Igbo communities also specialized, like the Onitsha and Abam were as warlike as anyone else and the Igbo village-group structure and laws were as complex as anything their neighbours to the West had (The groups that say they descend from O'odua).
You over estimate Sokoto. Oyo was already an old Empire that was further fucked over by Afonja to such an extent that Ibadan rebelled and joined Sokoto of their own accord. When sokoto tried to expand further south the Yoruba warlords clipped their cheeks. Sokoto couldn't even conquer Bornu which was in flatland territory.
Also, the most advanced firearms in Nigeria were either imported from the South or created by Southern blacksmiths. If the south had the population, horses and geography they would have been conquering the North. (Nkwerre made the best of those local guns, creating percussion locks).
"In fact a lot of Slaves came from the frequent infighting within and between Igbo communities. This led to them having the lowest population of the Big 3 in Nigeria (Hausa, Yoruba and Igbo respectively)"
The slave trade wasn't really the reason for their low population, all forest populations had relatively low populations like compare the Akan who occupy a region where the Savannah reaches the coasts vs their forest neighbours to the left and right like the Kwa and you will see the massive differences in population and population density, or even the Igbo their forest neighbours like the Ijaw for example. If anything they having such a population density in their region is amazing.
The argument that the Igbo don't have the institutions doesn't hold water because the Author assumes those institutions would be absorbed along with Islamization like occurred with the Fulani and Hausa.
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