Comments by "John Peric" (@johnperic6860) on "Why Originality In Architecture Is OVERRATED" video.
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@CheeseBae
You are confusing technological modernization with modernist (enlightenment) philosophy.
The Arts and Crafts movement opposed technological modernization (industrialization); it did not oppose enlightenment philosophy but was rather founded in it.
Modernization and modernism are not the same, and your confusion about these two things is what has you confused.
Modernism is a liberal enlightenment philosophy applied to art and form.
Liberalism is simply the rejection of objectivity in favor of subjectivity and individualism (this was often manifested as anarchism). Conservatism, conversely, is the embrace of objectivity (this is often manifested as upholding authority).
The Arts and Crafts and Impressionist movements were founded on the philosophies of humanist-socialist thinkers, such as John Ruskin and William Morris, and Deists, such as JMW Turner.
The main tenets of these movements were:
- Embrace a more abstract and simple form.
- Embrace the capabilities of the individual
- Embrace human craftsmanship, especially separate from the divine (e.g., humanism)
- Embrace naturalism.
It was liberal, enlightenment, and therefore modernist in every sense. John Ruskin, among others, called JMW Turner the Father of Modern Art (which most scholars today agree with).
The Arts and Crafts movement laid the foundations for the later Vienna Secessionist movement, Modernista movement, Art Nouveau, Bauhaus, etc. This isn't controversial.
In fact, the Modernista movement was also very upfront about its opposition to industrialism and the bourgeois class, similar to the Arts and Crafts (this didn't make it any less modernist, of course).
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@CheeseBae
You are confusing the modernist movement with something being modern (as in new).
I'm using the word modern as the broader modernist movement encompassing all modernist architecture, including moderne (such as Villa Sovoye), prairie school (such as the Robbie House), Bauhaus school (such as the Bauhaus building), Art Deco (such as the Field Building), Art Nouveau (such as the Sagrada Familia), etc.
Gothic architecture was modern (as in new) at one point but not modernist; those are two very different terms. Modernism (not modern as in new) is a broad philosophical liberal movement in art.
For instance, when someone speaks of "modern art," they do not just mean the Avant-Garde of the 20th century, they mean the entire modernist movement, including its earliest stages, including impressionism.
I'm talking about the philosophical movement behind the architecture, you are talking about whether something is recent or not.
So again, was Gaudi a modernist?
I'm not continuing forward until that last question is answered.
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@CheeseBae
"Gaudi did not build Modern architecture, he built in a form of Art Nouveau architecture."
So, modernista is not a modernist style?
"Prairie school is not Modern architecture, it is an outgrowth of Arts and Crafts."
Fascinating, so you mean to tell me the Robbie House is not modernist?
How about Organic Architecture, such as Frank Llyod Wright's Taliesin West, which directly stems from his earlier Prarie school?
"You need to decide if you're talking about architecture or philosophy"
I'm talking about the philosophy behind modern art, including architecture. These are not mutually exclusive terms.
"while Art Nouveau and Arts and Crafts were a continuation or an evolution of traditional architecture."
No, they were fundamentally different, in respect to their philosophical roots, from traditional architecture. Having vestiges or even some inspiration from the past does not make something traditional. By that logic, "post-modernism" isn't modernist.
This is like saying the Pearl Academy of Fashion isn't modernist since it has vestiges of traditional Indian architecture.
A swallow does not a summer make - just because vestiges of tradition exist does not mean something is traditional.
Arts and crafts, and the subsequent modernist styles, such as Vienna Secessionist, Art Nouveau, Bauhaus, etc., were based on rejecting objective form and the divine in favor of subjective form and naturalism/humanism. That's what separates Arts and Crafts from, say, Queen Anne and other traditional architecture.
This is made very clear by the fact that these movements were literally founded by secular socialists, humanists, and naturalists; if you don't know this, then you've done little research on the founders of these styles.
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@bart_u
The Arts and Crafts movement was literally founded on the Enlightenment-era humanist and naturalist philosophy of men such as John Ruskin.
Most of those in the Arts and Crafts movement were devout humanist socialists, such as T. J. Cobden-Sanderson.
It developed in tandem and from the same philosophies of the impressionist movement.
"The Arts and Crafts Movement was, in many ways, a precursor to modern architecture and design. This Movement’s emphasis on basic forms, asymmetry, and stripped-back design provides a foundation and framework for the later, modern designs to emerge from twentieth century."
The arts and crafts movement was the direct visual and philosophical precursor to the Vienna Secessionist movement, Modernista, and Art Nouveau.
The Bauhaus School is a merger of the Grand-Ducal Saxon Academy of Fine Art and Grand Ducal Saxon School of Arts and Crafts.
It is not remotely up for debate that the Arts and crafts movement, starting the the 1850s-1860s, was the start of the modernist movement.
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@CheeseBae
Per the Getty Institute (First source that appears):
"The term 'Modern architecture' describes architecture designed and built within the social, artistic, and cultural attitude known as Modernism. It put an emphasis on experimentation, the rejection of predetermined 'rules,' and freedom of expression in art, literature, architecture, and music."
Per Wikipedia (The second source that appears):
"Frank Lloyd Wright was a highly original and independent American architect who refused to be categorized in any one architectural movement. Like Le Corbusier and Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, he had no formal architectural training. From 1887 to 1893 he worked in the Chicago office of Louis Sullivan, who pioneered the first tall steel-frame office buildings in Chicago, and who famously stated "form follows function".[21] Wright set out to break all the traditional rules. He was particularly famous for his Prairie Houses, including the Winslow House in River Forest, Illinois (1893–94); Arthur Heurtley House (1902) and Robie House (1909); sprawling, geometric residences without decoration, with strong horizontal lines which seemed to grow out of the earth, and which echoed the wide flat spaces of the American prairie. His Larkin Building (1904–1906) in Buffalo, New York, Unity Temple (1905) in Oak Park, Illinois and Unity Temple had highly original forms and no connection with historical precedents."
There is a Modern movement, more formally Art Moderne, which is a streamlined and futurist movement, including Villa Savoye; however, this is simply an avant-garde movement in the broader modernist movement.
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@scrupulousscruples
The goal of impressionism was to break down imagery into more subjective and abstract forms.
This is made very evident by JMW Tiurner's works: Norham Castle, Sunrise (1798), Norham Castle on the River Tweed (1823), and Norham Castle, Sunrise (1845), which was a series of three paintings created over some 48 years.
The first work from 1798 was of a romanticist style, objective in form. A straightforward communication of his first visit to Norham Castle in 1797.
The second work from 1823 was one of the first examples of impressionism in history. While still clear in form, a clear breakdown between representing reality objectively was occurring (with the painting deliberately being left to appear incomplete).
The third and final work from 1845 was a definitive example of impressionist art. Form had completely dissolved into total unrecognizable subjective and abstract form. One could not look at it and discern anything except perhaps water and a sunrise.
Completely abstract in form, this is what impressionism is, and it was the definitive start of the modernist art movement.
I highly recommend reading about JMW Turner's philosophies on art, especially later in his life, and why Humanist socialists, such as John Ruskin, praised him so highly.
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