Comments by "" (@VersusARCH) on "Mers-el-Kebir - Tragedy on a Grand Scale" video.

It helps that you have an overwhelmingly superior force at hand and the enemy has no chance to win or escape (as was the case in Alexandria). The significantly more powerful French force in Oran (both in absolute and relative terms - compared to the threatening RN force) did have a chance (and a sizeable portion of it did escape)
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Narrative in postwar France, (up to today, but more forcefully in the early days) was staunchly De Gaullist, with the man himself actually either ruling or being a major influence in the country. No wonder Gensoul kept quiet on the subject.
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@Christian-mt5jx Gensoul behaved as any disciplined soldier would in his position. Had he agreed to any of the British demands Germany would have invaded Vichy france there and then, probably the French North Africa too (from the Italian Libya). If the latter were the case Operation Torch would have actually been much more difficult. Mers El Kebir was Churchill's supreme stupidity and a war crime (attack without a declaration of war).
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That claim is repeated on and on by the British propaganda trying to both overestimate its achievements and importance in WW2 as well as justify this action of outright agression. Drachinifel at least didn't buy it (he mentions that consideration being of secondary importance at best to the British decision makers at the time).
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So fireworks was suddenly proposed by the RN to boost the celebration but was eventually cancelled on HSE grounds. :)
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@robert48044 Germany would have still attacked the USSR and everything would have ended more or less the same (UK would reenter the war as France did).
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@Ushio01 Lend Lease was mostly an American show. Had UK even signed peace with Germany in 1940. it would have broken it by 1942 or 3 at US insistence and once the tide would begin to turn on the Eastern Front. Germany did not have the leverage to force an actual occupation of UK and they knew it and didn't insist on it. Hell they even left French North African posessions in their hands (which came back to bite them when those posessions essentially let the Allies invade in 1942 with little resistence). It would have been the same with UK. You even have an example from earlier history: UK actually signed peace with Revolutionary France for a while when the chips were down even though it never intended to honor it for long. The same did not happen in 1940. but had it happened it would not have made a big difference. British propaganda is perverting common sense in trying to overemphasize UK's importance in WW2 that is all. I laugh similarly at their insinuations that the Battle of Waterloo prevented Napoleon from winning. Really? With Prussian army still in the field (and actually deciding the outcome of the battle), Austrian, Russian, Spanish and many other forces marching on France in force yet again, even in the unlikely event that the entire Anglo-Dutch army was utterly routed at Waterlo, Napoleon would still be defeated by those other forces combined. France in 1815. was exhausted by decades of war and even with all repatriated veteran POW (which made up a good portion of Napoleon's forces in 1815) could simply no longer field an army large enough to fight even half of the, now veteran, coalition forces bearing down on it. But had the Prussians managed to smash Napoleon at Ligny, rest assured their propaganda would likewise be bullshitting about how they saved Europe from Napoleon's boot in 1815.
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That would have resulted in immediate invasion of the Zone Libre by the Germans, which was wat the British wanted - the French and the Germans to resume fighting each other. But that was no longer in the best interest of the defeated France as it would have suffered a lot of casualties (both civillian and combatants) and destruction while inflicting far less on the Germans in return. Germans also didn't want that since the armistice with France got them pretty much the most of what they could hope for at less cost than having to invade the Zone Libre and keep it occupied.
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@alexhunt7810 Oil? Ever heard of oilfields of Baku? Rolling stock? Um... NO. Lend lease locomotives amounted to about 10% of the USSRs total - just about enough to make up the losses (most of the rolling stock was evacuated from the soon-to-be occupied areas). Lion's part of the work on the USSR's rail network during the war was done by the Soviet rolling stock.
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1) To my knowledge nothing 2) De Gaulle had no influence at the time. He was just a voice on a radio. And if you mean in person - well there were simultaneous attempted takeovers of French navy ships in UK, Dakar, Alexandria as well as in Mers el Kebir, so he couldn't really be in several places at once. (the attempt at Dakar was defeated, UK and Alexandria were peaceful takeovers except 3 killed in the UK)
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No French ships were handed over to the Germans. The attacks was not only unneccessary but also counterproductive.
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Very true. A purely Allied point of view with complete disregard and close to 0 care for the French position. Which is understandable for Allied wartime propaganda or decision making but inexcusable for a today's historian or historiographer with the time distance.
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That is just a propaganda rationalization of an unprovoked agression.
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@TomFynn Then why aren't you fighting in Yemen?
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The reason why Gensoul was refusing to meet the British negotiator for so long is obvious. He was playing for time to raise steam and that ploy enabled Strasbourg and the destroyers (minus Mogador) to escape. It had nothing to do with his vanity as evidenced by the fact that he did agree to meet with Holland eventually.
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@alexhunt7810 You do realise that not the whole of France was occupied by the Germans in 1940. No? Oh, ok, google "Zone Libre" , "Vichy France" etc...
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Imagine if USN today came to a RN port and demanded all ships be either put under their command, handed over to them, demilitarized, sailed to the Carribean by reduced crews (where they can be snatched by USN any day) or sunk... Sounds reasonable to you?
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@robert48044 Japan could not invade the USSR. With US oil embargo it just didn't have the fuel. And after it invaded the oil-rich Dutch East Indies it would be fighting US sooner or later even if they refrained from attacking the US and just struck the Dutch and colonial UK just surrendered French Indochina-style. Clearly a great time to invade the vast spaces of the USSR (which still kept significant forces in the Far East durung the entire war)...
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@amschind Oh boy... Where do I even start with you? Check when oil actually started to be exploited in North Africa... Check USSR's oil production in Baku or USA's, check how much allied merchant traffic actually went through Mediterannean in the 1940-1944 period, check USSR's industrial output, particularly tank and aircraft production...
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Darlan was instrumental in cessation of French resistence against Operation Torch.
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That is a complete nonsense.
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@chrisknight6884 France, although defeated in 1940, still had some negotiating options. Firstly their fleet could be useful to the allies. If the Germans pushed too far with thrir demands France could continue the war from their colonies, some of which were beyond Axis reach, with their fleet being the major asset. The Axis needed to balance their desire to grab the French fleet against having to invade the whole of France, garrison it, therefore dispersing their troops, and fight even more resistance fighters. And even then they would likely not grab their fleet as it could sail to the allies (as bulk of the Italian fleet did in 1943) or scuttle itself (like the French ships in Toulon did in 1942). On the other hand the French knew that price for continuing the war was a straight away full occupation of the metropolitan France by the Axis, further destruction there, executions due to resistance (see Klaus Barbie - butcher of Lyons to see what I am talking about). Now many of the German-occupied countries faced the same dilemma, with certain members of the government and army command fleeing the country just before it was overrun with some military forces, and joining the Allies to continue the fight, while back at home some sort of puppet government was formed as some sort of administration was needed to keep order and prevent general famine (even if some of those were forced by the Germans to commit terrible atrocities against parts of their populace). Therefore it was a dilemma: make a modest contribution to the fight for the greater good against the Germans at massive cost in lives and property to your country (see Yugoslav, Greek or Polish guerilla resistance movements during WW2) or mostly shy away from further provoking the Germans by attacks and/or sabotage and be largely left alone by them to sit out the war that could only be won by huge unoccupied industrial powerhouses like USSR and USA and to a lesser degree UK anyway (see Denmark, Norway - their resistances, while existing and active came nowhere close to near all-out commitment made by the first group of countries). Sweeden, Switzerland, Portugal, Spain and Turkey played the latter part masterfully, avoiding the war altogether (some joined symbolically just before it ended). Now France obviously did not avoid the war altogether but it was still a highly developed industrial country. Continuing the war for the Allies as a mere auxiliary would incurr a disproportionately high cost compared to contrubution. The poor countries like the newly resurrected Poland or the Balkans had little to lose other than lives of their mostly simple folk. France was a great power before the war, it had industry and a critical mass of highly educated populace that could help it stay a great power after the war. I think trying to prevent war from destroying those was on Vichy officials' mind all along - Gensoul included. As a vindication of this stance note that most of the resistance leaders were upstarts - those who were clawing their way to power, not those who already had it before the war (Polish, Yugoslav, French, Italian and Greek communists that never held power there before the war and Mihajlovic in Yugoslavia, De Gaule in France - mere colonels etc. With the possible exception of the heads of Armia Kraiowa in Poland). Had Gensoul joined the Allies or sailed to US, Germans would have seen that as betrayal of the Armistice terms and invaded the Zone Libre in 1940. - just as they historically did in 1942. after receiving information that the French largely allowed the US and the British to invade their North African possessions without resistance in the operation Torch - whereupon the French Fleet in Toulon scuttled itself. Other than disrepair, the British attack on Oran and Dakar in 1940. probably was a major reason why, at that point, when they had nothing more to lose, they refused to sail to join the Allies instead.
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@chrisknight6884 The ships that made it through sailed to Toulon. See map at 1:50. The south of France was the so called "zone libre" (free zone). Not occupied by the Germans but solely administered by the Vichy French government which was trying to keep what was left of France out of the war.
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USA was already helping Britain (and until the armistice, France) against Germany (even if that help had to be paid heavily). Gensoul knew that sailing into US ports (or a French one that can easily be blockaded by the US or Britain) would be almost the same as giving his ships to the British (would make as much sense as sailing to neutral Japan to avoid German seizure of his ships)
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@kemarisite Even before Pearl Harbor US was actively protecting British ships up to half of Atlantic, gave UK destroyers for bases. Idiots knew they already picked their side. That is why Hitler declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor - to unleash his submarines on the country that was already lined up against him.
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Nonsense. He was delaying the meeting to raise steam.
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Every country that has ever been a world power or at least a regional power has been duplicitous. UK being no better than the French (as evidenced plainly by this act of blatant agression against the moored neutral French fleet and later seizures of Madagascar, Syria, operation Torch, together with Americans this time, etc.).
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@warpigeonofdoom No. It purposfully ignores them. For starters Gensoul's procrastinating in receiving a British envoy of lower rank was a ploy to buy time and raise steam to make his hitherto moored ships ready for fight or flight.
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Metropolitan parts of those countries were completely occupied. That of France was not until 2 years after Mers el Kebir.
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@Drachinifel Only small portions of the Yugoslav navy escaped to join the UK (torpedo boas Kajmakčalan and Durmitor, the submarine Nebojša and 2 floatplanes). The rest stayed in port and was surrendered to the Italians according to the provisions of the surrender of the Yugoslav Armed forces. Most of the naval personnel were Croats who did not care to fight after the Axis puppet Independent State of Croatia was proclaimed 4 days after the Axis attack on Yugoslavia.
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My thoughts exactly
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Hitler offered better terms to UK before the Battle of Britain than Churchill did to Gensoul before Mers el Kebir.
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C'est vrai.
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@kemarisite ... and was it pushing convoys to Germany to allow it to do the same? That's what I'm talking about. In a war even selling needed goods to a warring side at inflated prices is help - if the other side does not have even that option.
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BoB was not "nearly lost".
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The British were putting pressure on the French to get them to re join the fight. In politics everyone can be duplicitous if it suits him and a retribution is not likely.
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LOL Gensoul's ships needed time to raise steam. He was simply playing for time.
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Correct
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It was not a betrayal but an act of blatant agression against the armed forces of a neutral nation. It would not be the last time (Dakar, Alexandria, Portsmouth, Madagascar, Syria, French posessions in the Western Hemisphere, Torch..)
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Gensoul was playing for time to raise steam to escape to Toulon. Drach is confusing the facade with the essence...
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Gensoul was raising steam in his ships...
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Complete nonsense.
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@amschind I think you need to check the distribution of Axis forces on various fronts before forming an opinion on that matter.
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At the time the Red Army was rolling through Poland, the Western Allies were about a thousand kilometers to the west. All that they could do at this time to pressure the Soviets was to halt the Lend Lease deliveries (which by late 1944. were no longer that important anyway)
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@treborthgirw Those were small contigents already in UK ports that stood absolutely no chance. Gensoul had the biggest portion of the fleet and had some chance and did what he could to avoid capture.
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 @nichevo1 They did it in 1942. And Gensoul was no lone case - see the battle of Dakar.
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What arrogance? Delaying the meeting was just a ploy to raise steam to figh the agressor or escape from him.
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Blame the victim...
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The provisions of the British ultimatum were aimed at destroying the Franco-German Armistice which failed (but it fell apart in 1942) and bolstering the Free French.
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