General statistics
List of Youtube channels
Youtube commenter search
Distinguished comments
About

Forgotten Weapons
comments

Comments by "" (@neutronalchemist3241) on "Benelli MR1: Not Actually an AR15!" video.

Simply there are markets that are not obsessed with AR15s even if they are regularly available. AR15s are mainly a north american thing.
41
Just for a clarification, in Italy, and most Europe, this rifle can be purchased with a 12.5" barrel with flash suppressor and a telescopic stock (according to the EU law, a rifle must have at least a 30cm / 11.8" barrel and a total lenght of at least 60cm / 23.6". With the 12.5" barrel and the stock collapsed the rifle is 78.7cm long with the flash suppressor and 73.7cm long without it, so perfectly compliant). Those features are not available in the US only due to US restrictions on imports. So what’s the market this rifle is intended for? Essentially not the US market, but places where the AR15 is not so dominant among the “black rifles”. Not cause the law prohibits it, but simply cause the customers are not so obsessed with it.
30
I said "regularly available", that means "abiding to the same rules". As strange as it may seem to a North American, there are markets where, having the choice between an AR15 and another design AT THE SAME CONDITIONS, the AR15 is not chosen nine times out of ten. AR15s are mainly a north american thing.
13
In IPSC shooters use the rifles of the manufacturers that make rifles specifically for IPSC. In IPSC pistols, in Europe, about 1/3 of the participants uses Tanfoglio, 1/3 CZ and 1/3 all the others. That's really not representative of the preference of normal buyers. "at the same conditions" means "at the same conditions". In most countries, to buy a rifle, like to buy a pistol, you must have a licence, not compete wth it.
8
"why are you listing pistols when we are talking about rifles?" Because in IPSC, shooters tend to use the weapons of the manufacturers that make them specifically for IPSC. IE, In IPSC pistols, Tanfoglio and CZ make pistols specifically for competition, and so they are the most used in IPSC. What's used in IPSC is not representative of the preference of normal buyers. Most of the buyers of intermediate cartridge rifles does not compete in IPSC.
7
I get the impression that you simply don't know how a licence for firerams works. FIRST, there are MANY countries were you are not required to have a "sporting purpose" to buy an AR15. SECOND where a "licence for sporting purposes" exist (usually to distinguish it from an hunting licence), it doesn't require you to compete with the rifle. A "licence for sporting purposes" is a licence that allow you to buy and own the rifle, and to bring it to a range WHEN AND IF YOU WANT TO DO THAT. Nobody forces you to attend a range. YOU CAN SIMPLY KEEP THE RIFLE IN YOUR CLOSET IF YOU WANT. So, for how much incredible it may sem to you, there are countries, where, AT THE SAME CONDITIONS the buyers do not necessarily chose AR15s. Some of them choose to buy an AR15, and some of them some other rifle. Because AR15s are mainly a north American thing. And the fact that you think that I'm an "AR-hater" only because I dare to say that, speaks volumes.
7
"because we wanted to make an high quality firearm with a reliable and clean action". "but why I'm not an AR15?" "because we wanted to make an high quality firearm with a reliable and clean action".
5
"i don't see how an ar15 is more specifically made for IPSC than a SCAR or an hk33" Simply there are firms that made AR15s specifically for IPSC. "you don't really specify what you think the most common usage for a intermediate semi auto rifle is outside of the us. Please enlighten me." What's the most common usage for an AR15 in the US? To be kept in a closet and to be seldomly brough to a range. The ones that wants a tacticoool rifle to keep it in a closet and seldomly bring it to a range, outside US, are less obsessed whit AR15s than north Americans are.
5
IE In Italy, incidentally the country where Benelli build this rifle, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BELONG TO ANY SHOOTING CLUB TO OWN A MILITARY STYLE SEMIAUTO. YOU CAN SIMPLY KEEP THE RIFLE IN YOUR CLOSET IF YOU WANT. AR15s are regularly on sale in armories, classified both as sporting or hunting weapons, but AT THE SAME CONDITIONS the buyers do not necessarily chose AR15s. Some of them choose to buy an AR15, and some of them some other rifle.
5
I already listed three.
4
It's evident that I have to repeat myself instead. I said (several times) "AT THE SAME CONDITIONS". In most countries YOU CAN buy an AR15 to keep it in a closet. IT'S CONSIDERED A RIFLE LIKE ANY OTHER, and yet, the buyers do not necessarily chose AR15s. Because they are less obsessed with AR15s than Americans are. AR15s are mainly a north American thing. In other countries is conceivable that you can buy an AR15, and yet you prefer to buy another rifle.
4
"Yea....and Italy is basically the only exception to that rule in Europe." In France YOU DON'T HAVE TO BELONG TO ANY SHOOTING CLUB TO OWN A MILITARY STYLE SEMIAUTO. YOU CAN SIMPLY KEEP THE RIFLE IN YOUR CLOSET IF YOU WANT. In Austria YOU DON'T HAVE TO BELONG TO ANY SHOOTING CLUB TO OWN A MILITARY STYLE SEMIAUTO. YOU CAN SIMPLY KEEP THE RIFLE IN YOUR CLOSET IF YOU WANT. ... "I see you still dodged the question of whether you own firearms or not" "I get the impression that you are just an AR-hater despite you not owning guns yourself" is not a question to me. I don't care of your impressions, and that was just a silly attempt to switch the discussion from the topic (of which you clearly don't know much) to the person.
4
It seems that you have very little to say about the subject, haven't you? Fact is that there are many countries were you are not required to have a "sporting purpose" to buy an AR15. For how much incredible it may sem to you, there are countries, where, AT THE SAME CONDITIONS the buyers do not necessarily chose AR15s. Some of them choose to buy an AR15, and some of them some other rifle. Because AR15s are mainly a north American thing. And that's the subject, for how much you like to talk about me instead (that's your silly attempt to switch the discussion).
4
For how much you like to talk bout me now, because evidently you have nothing to say about a subject (gun laws and preferences out of the US) you know nothing about, fact is that there are many countries were you are not required to have a "sporting purpose" to buy an AR15. For how much incredible it may sem to you, there are countries, where, AT THE SAME CONDITIONS the buyers do not necessarily chose AR15s. Some of them choose to buy an AR15, and some of them some other rifle. Because AR15s are mainly a north American thing.
4
When talking about a semiauto shotgun action borrowed to a carbine, it has to be taken in account that the semiauto shotguns' gas actions are the most "battle proven" actions existing. The shotguns rented by the Argentine outfitters, for example, fire thousands of rounds a day every day, with sketchy manteinance at best, and using cartridges that are far "dirtier" (it's inevitable, due to the rapid loss of pressure in the shotguns' barrels) than any commercial bottleneck round. All that ridges on the piston and the guide rod are not there for show. They are meant to keep the metallic surfaces clean from the debris of combustion in conditions where a typical "tactical carbine" action will get stuck every few hundreds rounds. To use that action to fire .223 Rem rounds is even an overkill.
3
@johncarl5505 There are plenty of semiautos used for hunting in Erope. AR15 are not popular for huting because it's a poor hunting rifle, starting with the caliber.
3
The limit is 5 rounds for hunting rifles and 29 rounds for sporting rifles, regardless of the caliber. IE the Nuova Jager LT12 is an AR15 in .223 Rem, with a 12" barrel, classified as a sport weapon, and so sold with a 29 round magazine. ;)
3
It's available with standard rifle stock: https://www.benelli.it/sites/default/files/styles/canna_img_arma_teaser/public/contenuti/canna/immagine_montata/Italian/1-3%28mm%29.png?itok=L9l6rtxA There is a version with a telescopic stock, but it's not available in the USA due to the assault weapon ban: https://www.benelli.it/sites/default/files/styles/arma_full_zoom/public/contenuti/arma/immagine_arma/foto-mr1.png?itok=u1LfN1oO
3
D8W2P4 Really there isn't anything to "disprove". You brought no arguments in favor of bullpups other than they are short and that you like them. Instead you didn't disprove any evidence of their inherent defects. Moreover, you "showed" nothing. To write "looking at data online i see..." is not "showing".
2
@antonw-uw4ov It never became prevalent. Also because there's no price advantage over an high quality semiauto, like a Benelli Argo for example. Other than inventing inexistent laws you proved another to not even be able to read.
2
@antonw-uw4ov And who cares who you trust or not? You spend your time inventing inexistent laws and talking about thing out of your reach. People like you only trusts magicians and gurus.
2
D8W2P4 I already told of semiauto handguns infact. "The crappy trigger of the bullpups is due to the fact that the trigger is distant from the hammer/striker. It's the same reason why the trigger of the DA semiauto handguns tend to be crappier than that of the DA revolvers, but multiplied by 10. The problem can be reduced using better materials, more accurate fittings... but using the same materials and accuracy a conventional rifle's trigger will always be better."
2
D8W2P4 Do you know the difference between .22LR and a .223 Rem?
2
@antonw-uw4ov You do want personal infos in a comment section on the net?
2
@antonw-uw4ov It's simply silly to pretend to have personal informations about someone in a comment section on the net. I don't care about your age, your occupation, your sex, your political views, or if you are a human being or a talking dog. I only care about the topic.
2
D8W2P4 I said that, for the same technology, materials, ecc... employed, the trigger of the classic configuration rifles will always be better than that of the bullpups, and plenty explained why. " The problem can be reduced using better materials, more accurate fittings... but using the same materials and accuracy a conventional rifle's trigger will always be better."
2
D8W2P4 I already replied to that. Is not by chance that none designed a trigger group like the one you hypothesized (to be generous). Is not that at Steyr, FN, IWI and so on, are all idiots and you are the only one on the earth that know how to design weapons (or, better, to say "weld or bolt"). Is that "a metal fucking rod" is not an answer to the problem, for the reasons I already covered.
2
@antonw-uw4ov So you are a French and own a gun? No, because you are reading a wikipedia page. So You are pretending that your pretended gun ownership modified your brain so that now you are better than others at reading wikipedia pages about laws of places you don't know? That's why I'm not answering to your requests about my personal infos. Because what you pretend to get from yours is funny enough. First of all, I have to remind you that, to you, the purchase of the Benelli instead of an AR15 was due to different regulations for the two rifles. My reply was that the Benelli and the AR15 were purchased AT THE SAME CONDITIONS. Now you are stating that in France "both an ar15 and benelli mr1 is in category B, which means..." ...that they are purchased AT THE SAME CONDITIONS. And that already invalidates your entire argument. Then, again, your statement: "in most countries in Europe you do have to belong to a sport shooting club to own a military style semi auto, and the clubs generally require you to compete regularly to get a membership and to keep it". My reply: "a licence for sporting purposes is a licence that allow you to buy and own the rifle, and to bring it to a range WHEN AND IF YOU WANT TO DO THAT. Nobody forces you to attend a range. YOU CAN SIMPLY KEEP THE RIFLE IN YOUR CLOSET IF YOU WANT." In France, to have an autorization for "tir spotif" the shooter must be older than 18 (12 if he's really a competitive shooter), have attended at least 3 shooting sessions with an instructor, have a medical certificate and a licence of the "Fédération française de tir" (€60,00/year for an adult) . The shooter then receives a 5-year authorization to purchase and own Category B firearms. This autorization allow him to buy and own the rifle, and to bring it to a range WHEN AND IF HE WANTS TO DO THAT. Nobody forces him to attend a range. HE CAN SIMPLY KEEP THE RIFLE IN HIS CLOSET IF HE WANT. Notice that, if the shooter really competes, the required age is only of 12. In Czech Republic there is a theoretical and practial exam to obtain a licence for that matter but, once you have it, nobody forces you to attend a range. YOU CAN SIMPLY KEEP THE RIFLE IN YOUR CLOSET IF YOU WANT. etc. etc.
2
Yes, it's currently in production.
2
Beretta regularly sells the ARX-100 in Italy, and there is a rich choice between AR15 derivates anyway.
2
When talking about a semiauto shotgun action borrowed to a carbine, it has to be taken in account that the semiauto shotguns' gas actions are the most "battle proven" actions existing. The shotguns rented by the Argentine outfitters, for example, fire thousands of rounds a day, every day, with sketchy manteinance at best, and using cartridges that are far "dirtier" (it's inevitable, due to the rapid loss of pressure in the shotguns' barrels) than any commercial bottleneck round. All that ridges on the piston and the guide rod are not there for show. They are meant to keep the metallic surfaces clean from the debris of combustion in conditions where a typical "tactical carbine" action will get stuck every few hundreds rounds. To use that action to fire .223 Rem rounds is even an overkill.
2
Five rounds is the max allowed for hunting rifles. Sporting rifles can have up to 29 rounds. If a rifle is for hunt or for sport is decided by the manufacturer/importer that classifies it that way.
2
"people not obsessed by AR-15s like Americans are" is more accurate.
2
The first is a false problem. Indipendently on where the front sight is, the rear one is not on the barrel, so, if the barrel moves after the cleaning, it had to be rezeroed anyway. Moreover, much of the AR15 style rifles users, use rail mounted optics / sights anyway. For the second. Everyone is entitled of his own impressions. I can see very tight fittings compared to the flimsy look of many "tactical" carbines.
2
Is on the italian website, where there are the 12" barrel, flash hider, telescopic stock versions too. Pretty neat.
1
It's like it's not enough for a rifle to be an high quality firearm with a reliable and clean action. It needs a reason for "not being an AR15".
1
There is a version without the pistol grip.
1
EthosAtheos What I was saying is that bottleneck carbine rounds like the .223 Rem are inherentlhy "clean", cause the small bore and the gas seal of the projectile make so that the drop in pressure of the gasses in the barrel is slow enough to give to almost all of the powder the time to burn completely. Shotgun rounds instead are inherently dirty, cause the drop in pressure is almost instantaneous. For gasses, drop in pressure means drop in temperature, and so the powder have not the time to burn completely. Shotguns always produces more combution debris than carbines, so semiauto gas actuated shotguns needs to have some system to get rid of them. To use a simple piston, short or long stroke, like that of the typical black rifle (AUG, Tavor, Beretta ARX 100/160 and so on), in the same conditions, that means for a shotgun action, would mean to have it stuck in debris after few hundred rounds. On the other hand, it could be said that, to use a self-cleaning action, like that of the Benelli, for carbine rounds is an overkill, since even a simple piston can shoot some thousand of them without cleaning.
1
The semiauto shotguns' gas actions are the most "battle proven" actions existing. The shotguns rented by the Argentine outfitters, for example, fire thousands of rounds a day every day, with sketchy manteinance at best, and using cartridges that are far "dirtier" (it's inevitable, due to the rapid loss of pressure in the shotguns' barrels) than any commercial bottleneck round. And among them, the Beretta and Benelli actions are always deemed as the most reliable. All that ridges on the piston and the guide rod are not there for show. They are meant to keep the metallic surfaces clean from the debris of combustion in conditions where a typical "tactical carbine" action will get stuck after few hundreds rounds.
1
Yes they do.
1
The AR15 is an American obsession. There are countries were it's legal, but people simply don't care that much. It's only one of many alternatives.
1
There are simply countries where AR15s and AKs are not so appealing to the public.
1
There is a MR1 version without the pistol grip.
1
Is on the italian website, where there are the 12" barrel, flash hider, telescopic stock versions too. Pretty neat.
1
Exactly. "Why this rifle exists, if there is the AR15 already?" is simply the wrong question. It doesn't make sense, and makes the speaker seems like he is obsessed with the AR15. That 90% of black rifles are AR15s is a US thing only. In other markets, even where they are freely available, things are different.
1
D8W2P4 Infact you know nothing of what you are talking about. But the words were "the trigger of the semiautos tend to be crappier than that of the revolvers", not "semi are shit because of horrendous triggers". The problem is simply amplified in bullpups because of the distance, like I said in my first post.
1
D8W2P4 It's a known fact that the trigger of the semiautos tend to be crappier than that of the revolvers, and that's exactly why. The more the distance, the more the problem.
1
D8W2P4 Did you realize that in none of the images you provided the trigger directly moves the sear (and they are pretty shitty too)? In a AR15 it does. But let's speculate about an hypotetical "push" (1911 style) trigger, with a rod welded to it and to the sear. That way the trigger will operate the sear directly. The rod had to be thick enough to not flex at all, and welded with absolute precision to have an assembly of exactly the right dimensions, and has to move into a guide machined with absolute precision, to allow the rod to move only back-forth, since every other movement will make the trigger inconsistent, and the guide has to be always perfectly clean. In the end we will have a trigger group three or four times heavier than a standard one, that has to be made with clockmaking accuracy and obsessively cleaned and lubed, only to have a decent trigger. Obviously a service rifle can't be made like this.It can't cost like a fine tuned sniper rifle, and it can't require special attentions.
1
D8W2P4 A rod means two links. One from the trigger to the rod, one from the rod to the sear. A single rod add at least two mechanical lashes to the action.Is not a question of poorly designed triggers. Is an unavoidable defect of the design.
1
D8W2P4 Aaand the troll had never seen a trigger group in his life. In a traditional style (AR15,AK47...) trigger group, the trigger directly operates the sear. In a bullpup the trigger is connected to he sear (IE steyr AUG, FAMAS, SA80...), or the sear to the hammer (IE Tavor) via a long rod. that add at least two (three in the case of the Tavor) mechanical lashes to the action.
1
D8W2P4 So now, other than being incapable to bring actual examples, you don't like synthetic too. Moreover, as already said, 2 lbs are relevant. Bullpups continue to have crappy triggers due to an unavoidable defect of the design, and you are incabable to disprove the fact with actual arguments. Bulppups that don't eject downward continue to be poor designs for lefties, and you are not capable to disprove the fact with actual arguments. You brought the argument of " beyond glorified .22LR". Unfortunately bullpups in full power rifle cartridges are almost non existent, for the reasons already explained, that you are incapable to disprove with actual arguments.
1
D8W2P4 So it's not that your sentence lacked the subject. Is that you are not capable to bring any actual example. Really from wooden stock M14 and a synthetic one, there are only few ounces of difference. 9lbs 3.75oz for the USGI fiberglass stock, 9lb 12.25oz for the birch stock. A modern day AR is below 7 lbs. It's better if you don't guide anyone, really. You know almost nothing of the subject you are talking of. It's still not a question of poorly designed trigger groups. It's an unavoidable defect of the design. I alredy explained you why. The fact that you don't like to ear that bullpups are a problem for lefties doesn't make it not relevant. Bullpups in full power rifle cartridges are still almost non existent. So your advice to "think of something beyond glorified .22LR" is still pretty laughable.
1
@johncarl5505 The AR10 is another rifle already. it's normally used for hunting in Europe, but never became prevalent. Also because there's no price advantage over an high quality semiauto, like a Benelli Argo for example.
1
"By 2 lbs with the wooden stock" what? Your sentence lacks the subject (and 2 lbs are actually a substantial difference). It's not a question of poorly designed trigger groups. It didn't simply happen that, by chance, all the bullpups have poorly designed trigger groups. The crappy trigger of the bullpups is due to the fact that the trigger is distant from the hammer/striker, so the movement of the finger has to be transferred for a greater distance. That means that the levers of the trigger group are heavier, and the leverage has more total lash. It's an unavoidable defect of the design. That bullpups (unless they eject downward) are poor designs for lefties is a reality. That bullpups in full power rifle cartridges are almost non existent, is a reality.
1
D8W2P4 There is some other difference actually, and, if bullpups in intermediate cartridges are pretty rare, bullpups in full power rifle cartridges are almost non existent. Why? Cause those rifles are not made for close quarter fight (so the only advantage of bullpups is moot) and, first of all, being them necessarily heavier than a AR, the balance disadvantages of bullpups become evident, then, being them usually marksman rifles, crappy triggers are a big disadvantage. Again, some conventional rifles can be problematic for lefties, but not at the level of having to be shouldered on their wrong shoulder to avoid eating brass. That's a specialty of bullpups.
1
@antonw-uw4ov You know nothing about gun laws, like you know nothing about guns. You are not even capable of researching. That's why you need to invent inexistent laws. Things that require a brain developed beyond 6 years old are simply out of your reach.
1
@antonw-uw4ov I'm not upset and I've already schooled you on how gun laws work outside of your mom's basement, since you are clueless about that like about everything else in the real world (you even invented that "in most countries in Europe you do have to belong to a sport shooting club to own a military style semi auto, and the clubs generally require you to compete regularly to get a membership and to keep it", LOL!). Unfortunately you have not enough brain even to understand that.
1
D8W2P4 "Wrong, it's poorly designed trigger groups" So, for you, it only happened that all the bullpups have poorly designed trigger groups? The crappy trigger of the bullpups is due to the fact that the trigger is distant from the hammer/striker, so the movement of the finger has to be transferred for a greater distance. That means that the levers of the trigger group are heavier, and the leverage has more total lash. It's an unavoidable defect of the design. "Conventional rifles are a problem for lefties" Some of them are, but not at the level of having to be shouldered on their wrong shoulder to avoid eating brass. Even with bolt action rifles it had been noted how, operating the trigger with the left hand and the bolt with the right one, lefties are often faster than right handed people. "try using a conventional rifle with say a 24" barrel in a tight space." And why on the earth should i do it? No service 5.56 NATO bullpup I'm aware of is issued with a 24" barrel. Even cause the ballistic gain over a 20", for the .223 Rem, is practically nihil even for long range shooting, and, if you are not doing competition shooting, everything over 17" is an overkill. It's true that, in action, a bullpup will always be shorter than a conventional design, but the relative advantage is lower as the barrel is shorter and, in tight spaces, long barrels are pretty useless anyway.
1
+D8W2P4 The crappy trigger of the bullpups is due to the fact that the trigger is distant from the hammer/striker. It's the same reason why the trigger of the DA semiauto handguns tend to be crappier than that of the DA revolvers, but multiplied by 10. The problem can be reduced using better materials, more accurate fittings... but using the same materials and accuracy a conventional rifle's trigger will always be better. Bulpups are a problem for lefties cause their ejection port is exactly at the level of the cheek, so, if there is no way to change the ejection side, or the bullpup doesn't eject downward, the rifle must be shouldered on the right shoulder regardless how the shooter is used to. Once the rifle is in action, lenght is not really that important. Bullpups have been conceived mainly to facilitate transport. But, during transport, the advantage in lenght over a conventional rifle with a folding stock is almost non existing.
1
There is a conventional stock version, and a telescopic stock version available
1
@antonw-uw4ov Have you grown any brain yet?
1
There is a version with the standard stock.
1
Is on the italian website, where there are the 12" barrel, flash hider, telescopic stock versions too. Pretty neat.
1
The standard stock version is available.
1
Just for a clarification, in Italy, and most Europe, this rifle can be purchased with a 12.5" barrel with flash suppressor and a telescopic stock (according to the EU law, a rifle must have at least a 30cm / 11.8" barrel and a total lenght of at least 60cm / 23.6". With the 12.5" barrel and the stock collapsed the rifle is 78.7cm long with the flash suppressor and 73.7cm long without it, so perfectly compliant). Those features are not available in the US only due to US restrictions on imports. So what’s the market this rifle is intended for? Essentially not the US market, but places where the AR15 is not so dominant among the “black rifles”. Not because the law prohibits it, but simply cause the customers are not so obsessed with it.
1
Yeah. the "pistol grip, fixed stock" is more a way to get around the rules that ban the import of weapons with collapsible stocks. This rifle was designed to have or the collapsible stock or the standard rifle "non pistol grip" one.
1
It's still on the italian site and on the international catalogue.
1
Or markets where AR15s are regularly available, but buyers are not obsessed with them like Americans are.
1
The rifle is available with or whitout pistol grip, with fixed or collapsible stock, with 12.5" or 16" barrel, with or without flash hider, and it accepts STANAG magazines where allowed. Short barrel, flash hider and collapsible stock are not available in the US due to the US laws on import, not cause the rifle had been made for "non AR15 allowed" countries.
1
The 5 rounds limit is for hunting. Sporting rifles' magazines can have up to 29 rounds. It only depends on how the rifle is classified.
1
The MR1 is still in production, and can be seen in all of it's configurations (12.5" barrel, flash hider, telescopic stock...) on the Benelli Italian website. Benelli really chose to not push that rifle on the US market, infact, unlike other foreign companies, they did nothing to bypass the 1989 federal ban, and so the US customer can't have all the features (the rifle is even much more visually appealing with the telescopic stock).
1
The standard stock version is available.
1