Comments by "joe k" (@joek600) on "Military History not Visualized"
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@Tuning3434 First of all lets address the two different subjects you raised separately.
When it comes to buying weapons, Greece is most probably the best EU customer of the 2 main European arms dealers. France and Germany, with the later having the larger share due to deep ties to the political establishment and plain old corruption. Then they pretend to be surprised, by the Greek economy but thats another large topic. You are right that most of the EU countries reduced their military spending, because of the lack of any threat. Greece on the other hand has to deal with an aggressive neighbor and is forced to to upkeep a military spending that would be detrimental to social policies, even if the majority of the ''players'' making these deals were not in the pockets of big German and French companies and absolutely blackmailable. You see the standard EU and NATO attitude towards the Turkish aggression that Greece has to deal with daily, is ''talk it out'', which is very contrasting to the fact that EU is ready to tank its economy and deplete its military resources for supporting a non EU/NATO country that objectively would not be eligible for membership even in the next 100 years (I have been in Ukraine, I know what Im talking about). So despite the reductions made in other EU countries, Greece has a huge amount of arms for its size and economy.
Greece has the most Leo1 AND Leo2 and actually the most Leo 2 of the latest variants. These were bought, off course, as always in the highest possible rates cause the rats have to jack all the prices up to make their percentage larger. The latest deal that you are referring is the one of the co-production UNDER LICENSE (important) of Leo 2 HEL and some reactive armor upgrade packages if Im not mistaken by a certain company. The latest batch of LEO 2 we bought, came at the cost of 13 M a piece.
Now lets address the issue of Greek arms send off to Ukraine. Lets start that there is a great division between the (controlled) media and the actual people. Objectively the grand majority of the Greeks are against of taking any part in any shape or form in the war in Ukraine. They want this war to stop now but if you have to hard press them to pick a side, most people will acknowledge that US policy is the real instigator of this conflict. The ONLY positive of living in a country that faces corruption, financial and geopolitical challenges, is that the people become so to speak ''street wise'' and can immediately cut through the BS sold to the ''cloud dwellers'' of prosperous countries were everything appear to work like a Swiss clock. Everybody knows what the Ukrainian war is about even if its not ''politically correct'' to discuss it openly in EU.
Any arms sent to Ukraine was AGAINST the will of the people, and frankly even our corrupted clown government would not touch this situation with a 2m pole if it wasnt blackmailed that will fall from the ''good graces of Brussels''. Im sure you all read reports about the miraculous leaps of the Greek economy. Yeah its all BS, the reality is far worse than when the reports mentioned that the Greek economy was ''chaotic''. Humanitarian help, or receiving refugees is something that the broad public sees very positively though.
The BMPs were pulled from frontline positions with the promise that they would be immediately replaced by German refurbished Marders. Germany failed to deliver and frankly while the Marders are more modern and shiny (for old junk) compared to the BMPs they have certain tactical disadvantages. We sent the BMPs and probably got burned in a couple of days. There was pressure for sending a few LEO 2 but the government knew that the people would riot (everybody knows that we paid with our life's blood for these) and there were upcoming elections. Im sure that they managed to deflect the pressure using that excuse.
When it comes to the LEO 1. Objectively these are junk and many of them are in storage. The situation of the Swiss Leo1 is very interesting and indicative of the arm twisting happening behind the scenes to all the EU governments. Switzerland decided to remember that its a neutral country. They are sitting on about a hundred modernized Leo 1s, that they dont really need, but due to their found again neutrality they claim that they cant send them to Ukraine. So some egghead in EU came up with the plan that Swiss cannot transfer their Leo1s to Ukraine, but it could transfer them to Greece, and then Greece could transfer 100 of our own Leo1s to Ukraine and problem solved. Only that its not solved. Cause in order for that to happen Greece is required to UPGRADE their stored Leo1s to the standards of the Swiss Leo1s, in order to be on par. Meaning that we are required to somehow pay for the upgrade of equipment destined to be phased out/mothballed/turned into engineer-firefighting track vehicles, in order to receive the 100 Swiss Leo1s that we never needed in the first place. ABSOLUTE INSANITY. Its like forcing you to PAY and upgrade your used car that you were going to replace because its completely outdated, give it away to my neighbor, and in return I will give you an upgraded version of that same old car that will still be a junk.
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@danh7411 It tells me that for some reason you all seem to take personal offense on me declaring a simple truth, as if your uncle runs Reinmetall or something. It’s also funny how you assume that my alternative to Leopards would automatically be something Russian made. But let’s go along with your skewed logic and see where that gets us. IF Greece could get let’s say 5 T-90s for the price of one Leopard, then that means far more good enough, machines, 5x available firepower served by not 5x crews cause you need 3 men, easier to fix and service, lighter too on the Greek rocky ground.
You don’t understand that for all those years Leopards were presented to the public as the one and only super machine that would stop Turkey in its tracks and that kind of brain washing was also happening within the military, which we actually all serve btw, unlike the most ‘’experts’’ in this comment section. So the images of Leopards the super wonder weapons been taken out just like that, hits home in a number of different ways, first because you imagine yourself or your mates in there and secondly because they cost an arm and a leg, especially through the channels of the deals under the table.
I’m not sure why you decided to include Poland and Sweden. Poland decided to go head first into this new forever war on behalf of US, they will receive some glass beads and mirrors but in the end they will only manage to run their economy to a dead end right at the moment they were slowly standing again on their feet and have somewhat decent living standards after so many decades. The majority is scared out of their brain for a Russian invasion that would never happen and a small deluded nationalistic minority dreams of becoming again a regional power after their 16th century flash in the pan. Every nation has some of them. Sweden… I don’t know wtf Sweden is doing. I mean those seagulls and seals must be very threatening and they decided to waste good money that will become Xmas bonuses for the American military industrial complex. But hey that’s their problem.
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