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@aclark903 incorrect, the most successful countries have always applied secular values, not religious ones. These values have been shared by a greater or lesser extent by any culture that develops a modicum of philosophical or scientific progress, weather it’s pre-crusades Islam, Ancient Greek and Roman, Chinese, or Japanese cultures. Basically you need a level of tolerance and acceptance to allow progress to be made in spite of religious doctrine, so an easing or dogmatic adherence to a set of principles is the commonality, not Christianity. Look at China, they have eased there dogmatic adherence to there variant of communist authoritarianism and are now starting to become a world leader in science and technology. America on the other are going down a rabbit hole of religious fundamentalism which will at some point reduce their scientific output.
The theory of Evolution is an excellent example of a discovery being made in spite of religion, not because of it. It was not a welcome discovery and it created major theological problems. Two hundred years prior and Darwin would likely have been a heretic.
No country in the west follows christian biblical teachings literally as that would take us back to the heretic burning of the pre-enlightenment.
Finally, North Korea is hardly an atheist (and I struggle to understand what an atheist country is if I’m honest, do you mean an authoritarian country with bans on “religions”. Or a country with no state religion?) country, it’s more of a cult of leader worship, where the leaders are effectively treated as gods. They even have a triumvirate like Christianity now.
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Hi Richard, I’m sorry this is an over simplistic,and romantic view of the topic. All the other countries forming the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland have a level of devolved powers (Except England) and none have a good case for independence as current independent polling stands. The independence movement in Scotland is currently on the back foot and seems to be going backward. NI has a very specific trigger in the GFI and doesn’t need to ask Westminster, and Wales hasn’t had very much of an independence movement compared to either of them.
The issue is also, who then should be eligible for voting? The Scottish independence vote was for example a sham, as it gave people who would be extremely unlikely to get citizenship franchise, and denied the franchise to natural born Scot’s living outside of Scotland. With numbers up to 20% of Scottish people living outside of the country being denied the vote. Also would their offspring be eligible be eligible for citizenship? That would increase the lost franchise significantly (and include a lot of my family). As a proponent of PR, I find it peculiar that you would find this acceptable.
This whole issue is a mess due to the level of integration and immigration of populations. At the moment, there is a case for further devolution, including devolved powers in England, and maybe a federal model in a “kingdom” parliament, and much like if those nations were in the EU, the voice of the country would be proportional to the population size. But I’m not seeing one for independence at this time.
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@malcolmstockbridge2569 during thatchers time, people could afford houses. A single worker could still support a household (though admittedly this was changing), real wages were higher, wealth inequality was much lower, the government still had some government assets, NHS was still mostly nationalised. Government ministers resigned when they were caught out for minor indiscretions. There was significantly less (visible) corruption in public life. Thatcher was a hag and I bought cava to celebrate her death, but she had principles, however deluded, and would argue them on the door step. Johnson, Truss, and Sunak are all way worse. They believe in nothing by there own genius.
I don’t understand how you can say 1980s Britain’s was worse. I guess you didn’t live there.
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@barerfont my concern is we will end up electing people who are unsuitable for the task, people in the role need a level of competence. We will just end up with ridiculous grifters like JRM and Lee Anderson, not people who can form a considered opinion on the legislation. Hence why it would be better to appoint. If you haven’t already, I’d recommend watching some of the debates in the lords, it’s not like Westminster. They are pretty technical discussions on the law, its useability, merits, and flaws. This was a big problem with Boris sending unserious people (donors and allies) to the lords, they just didn’t have the knowledge skill for the position.
Either way, I do think we both agree the status quo is not great, and needs a change. Good to have the discussion 👍
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@banksarenotyourfriends I don’t think most people actually knew who he was tbh. 2017 was as much a protest vote against Brexit, May, and the Tories, as much as a vote for Corbyn. The Lib Dems were still persona non gratis after the coalition. So sure he picked up votes, but he didn’t appeal to the small c conservative swing voters to capitalise on the voter share. He didn’t win back Scotland. Getting youngsters out to vote is great, but they need to be where it counts under FPTP.
A Leaders only as good as their last election you can’t say he was great in 2017 and 2019 don’t count. He lost both elections, and Labour tanked in 2019 and it was clearly down to his lack of leadership.
The fact he never seemed to come out for interviews during the 2019 politics tensions didn’t help. The fact he wouldn’t step aside to allow a government of national unity be created meant a lot of people voted LD or Green instead of labour. Also in the build up he allowed a power vacuum to form and the shadow cabinet filled it, again this just reinforced the perception he was weak.
Interesting you mention PR, because whilst I believe Corbyn is supportive of PR, Labour under Corbyn were against it. And while the members seem to have finally woken up to it last year, it’s unlikely to be a priority whilst Labour are winning under FPTP.
The biggest issue with JC right now is he has, rightly or wrongly, become a vote loser. I do feel it’s a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. But currently, it feels like Corbyn is the only attack line Sunak has on Starmer at PMQT. So making that a viable attack line is politically a mistake.
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@the1beard no, because infrastructure is not like a house. It’s like the services provided to a house. Would you be willing to buy a house with no electricity, gas, roads, broadband, sewers, water? Of course not. Without adequate infrastructure, business will not remain or set up in the UK. This is a major gripe of businesses in the UK, not my words, his is from business. We lag behind the other European states as our infrastructure is still broadly Victorian, especially rail.
The fact you want to throw more vehicles in the road suggest you don’t live in the south of England. It’s horrendous traffic congestion on the roads. You want to make it worse.
Do you see? If you don’t, maybe you should do some research into the benefits of a good rail network. Japan, Germany, France are all good examples.
Why are right wingers so poor at analogy?
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@steveharrison76 how do you know the spare capacity of private hospitals? I’m guessing Labour maybe spoke to the private healthcare sector first, because that would be an easy tory attack line otherwise.
Not all private healthcare professionals are NHS staff, how do you know they will not sleep? Currently that’s the issue in some parts of the NHS. There needs to be a quick solution to mitigate capacity and pressure on the NHS. Like it or not, this will be part of any solution. The other option is people living in pain and dying for the sake of ideological purity. If this is your preferred option, then there is really no helping you.
How do you know the funding will come from existing NHS budgets, and not the windfall taxes on energy companies, public schooling tax, or some other wealth tax? In short, your assertion are opinions.
Currently Streeting (who I loathe) has said they will use the Private Sector to back up the NHS, I want to know the fleshed out long term details before making an informed judgement. Is this a permanent plan? Or is there an aim to reform and rebuild the NHS? This is a question I haven’t heard answered yet as they focus on short term, and it’s presented as a short term plan.
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@guidobolke5618 no worries, it’s good to chat, I’m sure others will have different opinions, and all view points are pretty subjective.
A bi issue with these rioters is they failed at the ballot box in our recent general election and chose violence. Ironically the Labour Party is seen as pandering to these anti immigration supporters by a lot of members with its immigration policies. There has been zero opportunity to implement policy as we have only had a government for one month. Also, the timing has been suspicious. It’s very coincidental that the right wing mobilises the moment a left wing government comes to power.
Unfortunately when people use violence against the state, the only way any state can respond is in kind. You have to remember that the initial incident, where three girls were murdered, was seen as a quick response from police and more importantly concerned citizens. There were genuine hero’s in that initial event who saved more lives by endangering there own. Rioting was never a way of expressing anything, particularly as many of those first responding officers were on the front lines in the riots. The areas that were attacked where were close to the murders and impact the people involved.
The rioters are attacking police mainly because they are in the way of the intended targets initially, or were the types who enjoy fighting with the police. The police do enforce laws, but up until the most recent tory government, most laws were broadly seen as necessary across the political spectrum. The actual criminal element in society is pretty small as a proportion of the population, and reoffending rates are pretty high. So a few individuals have an oversized footprint on society.
Obviously, there are groups that this doesn’t fit so well, particularly non-white communities, who generally get a more than their fair share of police attention, often unnecessarily.
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@XAVR_ you don’t seem to be willing to acknowledge Corbyns very real flaws. He had no experience in government, even in a junior role. On defence his positions were somewhat controversial. He displayed a reluctance to talk to the right and centre left media to defend himself on issues and smears, and when he did speak to them, he often came across as arrogant, petulant, and preachy. He was indecisive when he had to deal with an issue that went against his personal moral code such as Brexit,and stalled and procrastinated thus creating a vacuum. As a back bencher he just voted conscience and never worried about the politics of those choices. It’s came as no surprise when the PLP were rebelling as that’s the precedent he had set. In short, he seemed more a protest choice than a serious shot at PM to me having followed his career since the late 1980’s.
2015 was a winnable election, as the Lib Dem’s were toast, and Conservatives only won by weaponising Corbyn as a radical, who was an easy target as he is a radical compared to other parliamentarians. This was one of the key concerns his opponents in Labour had, look at how they weaponised a bacon sandwich against Milliband. The left needs to find away of dealing with this demonisation and the left needs a younger more charismatic leader, ideally without the historical statements that didn’t age well waiting to trip them up. I’m not seeing a new figure emerge yet because there’s a Corbyn fixation. It’s a shame, because we really need to move political discourse left and let neoliberalism die in a ditch.
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