Comments by "Andy Monaghan" (@229andymon) on "The Electric Viking" channel.

  1. While not wanting to take anything away from the Chinese for wanting to adopt renewables, it also makes great geopolitical (and economic) sense for them to do so. China doesn’t have nearly enough fossil fuels of its own, meaning it has historically had to buy them from foreign sources. Which leaves them spending money in other countries and to some extent means them being hostage to supply dictates. The less Australian coal they have to buy for example, the less they need to depend on a NATO allied country and they can also keep their money invested at home. Whatever the reasons, it’s good news apart for Western powers that don’t like to see China winning.
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  2. Falling domestic ICE sales, rising production costs, tanking export sales, unmeetable government mandates…. The end of the ICE age cometh.
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  3. If VW and other legacy auto makers go under, it will *not* be primarily due to the workers on the production lines. It’ll be due to poor and shortsighted management and top leadership. You should say that, Sam.
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  4. If a robot company wanted a really dumb human job to trial in UK, I’d suggest a Tory MP. A suped up vacuum cleaner would probably do as well.
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  5. And Japan..? Did you see the stats for car sales in USA last year - Honda, Nissan and Toyota sales already crashing. They're in deep, deep trouble...
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  6. Not that the personality of a CEO must be the determining factor, but Farley seems to be a genuinely nice guy and also very switched on as to the EV revolution. If Ford went down on his watch, it wouldn’t be because he was blind to what’s happening in China and Tesla. He’s in charge of a massive sailing ship company after steam ships are already sailing the seas.
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  7. Not only are the western auto makers losing their vital Chinese market, they’re also losing their other export markets that BYD, NIO, MG etc are now poaching from them as well….. They’re screwed.
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  8.  @daddy9267  Isn’t that exactly what US companies did in China?
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  9.  @keepitreal2902  it can be argued nuclear doesn’t even compete with fossil fuels. Nukes is about as expensive an energy as you get.
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  10.  @AArata63  Exactly! Which shop floor person created dieselgate?
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  11. Who would buy one? Millions of people. 1 in 4 new cars sold in UK in December were EV.
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  12. Like the design. Tesla makes great cars, but design wise I reckon they’re as exciting as a box of cornflakes.
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  13. The UK EV mandate is for 28% of all new car sales, over the period of 2025, to be EV. So, logically, in order to meet that averaged target, by the end of the year, sales would have to be around 30% or more. Remarkably, I reckon that will probably happen. And we should reflect that this is happening after the new Labour govt actually reduced EV incentives to a negligible level.
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  14. Great news and fantastic to see this vehicle being made in Scotland, but they are not the only vehicle manufacturers here. We already have companies making (to varying levels of manufacture/assembly); haulers, buses, fire engines, RCVs and taxis.
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  15.  @johnwayne8475  What’s not to like about that? Plenty, if you’re GM, Stellantis, Ford, VW, Exxon, BP…
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  16.  @jasonmugridge  and British shipbuilding. I’m from Glasgow and remember the Clyde full of shipyards. All gone now due to atrocious management that didn’t read the future of global shipping. They too tried to blame their workforce instead of themselves. Look at what happened at Sunderland, Brit management and Brit workforce equalled failure, then Nissan came in with Japanese management and turned them completely around. What does that tell you?
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  17. @NoiserToo  you'd have to put even higher tariffs on Chinese EVs too. Even at the recently raised levels they'd still be cheaper. All it would get the EU is a stay of execution. While they sit back in their protectionist prison, China would be swiftly killing their (critical) sales in China and many other of their export markets. China, with 1 in 3 of the global car sales now dictates the direction of travel, not the EU, or USA. Locking themselves in a cupboard isn't a solution.
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  18. Apparently there’s a place where Mammoths survived into relatively modern times. Perhaps the US will be the car industry equivalent.
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  19.  @SaretGnasoh  It’s called foreign direct investment and usually fought to get by host nations and applauded by them when happens. Mostly for good reason.
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  20. 2k pa you're better using taxis.
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  21. Yup, there’s $40m pa right there…
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  22.  @daddy9267  Hmmm. Tell that to the EU?
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  23. Next stop, dilithium crystal batteries! To Alpha Centauri and back on a single charge…. Jokes aside, where does it end?
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  24.  @Nom_AnorVSJedi The Chileans have actual experience of another place directly interfering in their country. It wasn’t China.
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  25.  @emilsohn1671 UK is building a new nuke plant that has been described as the most expensive building on the planet. The UK govt has guaranteed revenue for the operating company at ruinous levels. It will saddle UK consumers with high bills for decades. Before we get to how to dispose of radioactive waste, can you tell me how this makes economic sense?
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  26. “They’re saying they’re doing it, so they must be”. Well, not necessarily…. Let’s see real world testing from independent accredited testing authorities.
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  27. Yes, bad management destroying what was a good company.
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  28. If 1 out of every 1000 people is a complete fool, that’s a lot of fools…..
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  29. EV opposers often tell you they can’t charge at home and don’t have a charger on their street. They usually don’t have a gas station on their street either.
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  30.  @kieranworland8662 Well said. Too often badly run companies run into problems and get away with blaming their workforce or unions for their own failings. Who created Dieselgate, the unions? Who ignored the Chinese EV train barrelling down the line for 15 years, the workforce?
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  31. Why must it take $40m pa to run a company, however big? Like, they couldn’t find someone capable to do it for a mere, say, $20m? Who makes up these crazy numbers? And when the shop floor workers want a couple more % a year and they’re “greedy”.
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  32. There’s nothing wurst than sausages.
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  33.  @glenny2960  I’m no expert on car pricing, but wouldn’t it be fairly normal for any car bought for 20k 7 years ago to be worth about 8?
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  34.  @Geewee-cv4ur  True, but it could be argued that, as a Chinese company, BYD might have a bit of an advantage in the biggest car market in the world - their own. Given the size of the Chinese market, it seems clear to me that the US needs China more than China need the US.
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  35. I understand the feedback so far from companies that hire out Tesla cars and therefore have the biggest case histories are highlighting huge savings on service & maintenance c/w ICE.
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  36. You make good points, but fundamentally I disagree. Firstly, I'm confident the transition to EV will be even quicker than most people think, primarily because people are reading the writing on the wall. They now know the ICE age is over and who will choose to spend 00.000s on a new ICE that will probably be worth little in 5 years coz no-one will want it. That's happening already, ICE sales are dropping off a cliff while EVs climb it. That's only going to escalate. Sure there will be charging challenges for those that can't charge at home, but there will also be solutions. Look for roadside chargepoints and faster charging times at gas stations, mall car parks etc etc. Where do we see the biggest EV population? China, where apartment living is the norm for most people. As for hybrids, sorry but I'm a huge sceptic about those. 2 techs in 1 vehicle? Nope.
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  37.  @mikejones-vd3fg  Sentiments that has led to UK going from a manufacturing powerhouse to an underperformer of note. When I started my first job, in the late 70s, it was with a big firm, but in one of their smaller factories, maybe under 100 employees. I remember being surprised at them having 3 canteens. The fancy one, with white linen and silver service, for around 4-5 senior managers, the next with checked tablecloths etc for around 12-15 middle managers and the the last with plastic chairs and formica tables for the oiks. It symbolised all that was wrong with Brit business - them and us, from top to bottom and in every way possible. The company concerned went out of business, and I can assure you in no way due to unions or workforce. Sure - treat your workforce like cattle, or the enemy, or just a necessary evil. It’s the Brit way.
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  38.  @barunosardadi4717  Well said. That’s the best option.
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  39. Americans seem to me to be obsessing with range, while an analysis of their driving habits leads you to an inevitable conclusion there’s absolutely no need for the average American to do so. They’re making perfect destroy good.
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  40. I don’t know who you were speaking to on your travels, but as a resident of UK, I couldn’t disagree with you more. I expect you reached your conclusions after attending a Reform Party meeting. Trump is about as popular as Athlete’s Foot.
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  41.  @arthurtantiprasut7942  Let us indeed be real. The shift from ICE to EV *needed* state subsidy, otherwise China would have the same situation as US, where established vested interests could and would delay such a transformation. Having said that, I reckon China is probably now past the tipping point where such subsidies are necessary and they should be scaled back.
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  42.  @groundreality5360  ICE sales banned in Ethiopia. A developing nation, for sure, but with a gigantic population.
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  43.  @Anonymous------ what are you comparing to?
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  44.  @ChickensAndGardening  According to IMF, US growth in 2024 = 1.5%, for China = 4.2%. Looks like more “No’s” your side of the Pacific to me…
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  45. I can't speak about England, Wales, NI, but here in Scotland my guess is that Tesla is probably the only one the person in the street is very aware of. I'd reckon knowledge of other brands and models is sketchy at best. As for new ICE sales being in the lower price bracket, that makes sense to me. If you aren't aware EVs are the future, you must be in a coma, but if you are but aren't ready to take the jump to EV yet, then buying a cheap ICE makes more sense than an expensive one. Only thrill seekers would spend £50-£60k for an ICE car that might depreciate like Liz Truss' reputation.
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  46. If you mean double deckers, they're made in Scotland by Alexander Dennis in partnership with BYD. Chinese company Yutong are also selling buses in UK - not made in UK.
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  47.  @SK-lt1so  Unless you’re referring to USA as the prison state, then both operate in China?
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  48. That’s the paradox of capitalism. Without state control (anti-monopoly) regulations, the private sector would destroy itself.
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  49.  @tellyboy17 Great idea. Governments generally need to support industries to move toward net zero. In any case the state can only support auto companies that are convinced they want and need to move to EV, which legacy companies in the West have in most cases failed to do. Try as you might, the West’s failure to compete with China in EVs is not China’s fault, it’s themselves to blame.
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  50. The average American drives around 30 miles per day with an average journey of 12 miles. How many times per year does the average American drive journeys over, say, 300 miles? The logic behind hybrids escapes me apart from drivers who habitually drive long distances.
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  51. If you think the shop floor workforce are to blame for the position VW is in, you’re very wrong. While VW management has been managing its decline, they’ve been paying insanely high dividends and top executives packages. Plus, the amount a shop floor increase would mean in respect of the selling price of a vehicle is routinely exaggerated to a crazy degree. It’s actually quite insignificant. The management isn’t going to criticise itself, is it?
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  52.  @rogergeyer9851 I agree with him buying Twitter being a mistake, but surely you’d have to concede that, overall, what he’s done with Tesla is really impressive. My view of Musk is that if he stuck to technology and manufacturing he would be far better off? He needs to keep out of politics, I’ll listen to him about tech and cars etc, but not when he enters a world he knows no more than any other big mouthed politician. Incidentally, when (not if) FSD becomes mainstream, which I’m sure it will, it’ll revolutionise transport. Whether that’s next year or next decade doesn’t really matter, and Tesla are at the forefront of it.
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  53.  @brendanpells912  How would that help the UK Govt meet its commitment for no new ICE sales by 2030?
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  54.  @Brian-om2hh  There was a couple of surveys done on the subject in UK, this year and last, by EY and OVO. Both found not just acceptance but general support for EVs. Why anyone would instead prefer to have ICEs, burning expensive, difficult to obtain fossil fuels and spewing toxic fumes along our roads, towns and cities defeats me.
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  55. Really? I dont remember that. What I do remember is when the Japanese entered the UK market, especially in the English NE then and turned it around completely. Which should lead to the conclusion - British management and British worker equals failure, Japanese manager and British worker equals success. No? Workers don’t lead a company, workers don’t make decisions. It was really poor Brit management that sunk Brit auto excellence, not the poor schmuck on the shop floor. Don’t believe everything the Express tells you.
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  56.  @krossbolt4100  Which shop floor worker or union official came up with dieselgate? Which worker decided to ignore the rise of EVs? Which worker decided to plunder the Chinese market while teaching the Chinese how to make better cars better than them? Yeah, sure, it was the guy on assembly line 6.
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  57. In Europe (and the US), the car markets are a zero sum game. So, every time a Chinese car is sold there, it’ll mean one less Merc, VW, Renault etc. While the China market is still rising, that situation is pretty much replicated there too. Same with all other global markets. In the UK, there will be no tariffs against Chinese EVs, so I foresee a happy hunting ground for them there. The US has raised the drawbridge against them, which will buy them time, at the expense of the US public, but the tariffs imposed by the EU won’t be enough to stop the Chinese invasion destroying much of the European car industry, IMO. What the US does in the longer term - I don’t know, coz, whether they like it or not, ICE is dead car walking. I can’t see a way out for the Euro auto industry. Anybody got any suggestions?
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  58.  @caulkins69  Not sure I'd agree with that, but even if true, the battery won't bake the earth.
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  59. The West was able to sanction Russia “safely” because the Russians buy relatively little from the West. So they couldn’t effectively retaliate by stopping importing Western goods and thereby hurting Western exports. But the dynamics between Japan and China are very different. If Japan pulls up the auto drawbridge to Chinese EVs, then China can do the same back and deprive Japan of its biggest export market. For any car exporting nation in that situation that would be very difficult, for Japan, given their reliance on their auto industry, the Chinese market and also their failure to adopt EVs in time, it would be catastrophic. Japan may be about to find out the Chinese dragon bites.
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  60. Sam, I enjoy your comments regarding renewables and electric vehicles. I do not enjoy your political views, which appear to be very similar to Elon Musk’s, which are also right wing tripe. If you feel you must comment on union actions, you should at least have the grace to include their explanations. Keep politics out if it, buddy!
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  61. Perhaps the answer is to give the unions decision making capability then? Let’s face it, the reason we’re on this forum is due to atrocious leadership of VW and other legacy auto makers. Difficult to see them making a worse job, eh?
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  62. US politicians openly talk of China in terms of "the enemy", and enact policies accordingly. So what do they expect.?? Did they seriously think the Chinese would just roll over? Is this not the ultimate ignorance and arrogance - to believe yourself so right, so superior and so entitled that your wants will be unquestioned?
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  63.  @zofe  The $bns that used to be spent by the global auto industry on ICE R&D is now shifting to battery tech. Add to that the $bns already being spent by battery companies to meet the EV and storage bonanza and you have a tsunami of resources (public and private) being directed toward better battery tech. I'm sure when the age of steam ships arrived there were sailing ship magnates saying "Yeah, but where will they get the steel, how much will coal cost, etc etc"....
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  64. I agree there is often more sizzle than sausage at times wrt battery tech improvements, however I believe we are, generally, in an environment of continual, steady improvement. Batteries appear to be getting cheaper, more power dense and faster to recharge. At every stage, reasons to not buy an EV are reduced.
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  65.  @hz8913  Exactly, we're being asked to judge China pretty much on what it might do compared to what we've seen US actually do !
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  66. Same basic problem. Bad management.
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  67.  @AMortalDefiant  Agreed. In fact we only need look at how the Japanese came in and usurped a huge chunk of the US vehicle market in a competition that was far more evenly matched to see that. The Japanese were doing pretty much the same as what the US companies were doing, just much better. For me, EV production is significantly different to ICE production, meaning the lead China has already established will be that more difficult to catch up to, far less overtake. Frankly I see the US, Japanese and European legacy companies looking over the edge of a precipice, with perhaps Europe being best positioned out of the 3, but only just. The times, they are a’changin.
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  68.  @shyviking  Continent sized Cuba - I love it. At least they have some kind of capacity to adopt an ICE fortress strategy something akin to that, albeit suicidal, one. I suppose Japan also has the same. But think of Germany, also a massive legacy auto nation, but with few means to do much to stop the Chinese tsunami.
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  69.  @Mrbfgray OK, no more unions. So, who protects the shop floor workers rights and livelihoods?
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  70.  @HonestJohn-y3k  According to a poll last week, the number of people in UK that hold a favourable/unfavourable opinion on Trump is 57% unfavourable vs 25% favourable. However, in Scotland where I’m from that climbs to 71% unfavourable vs 18% favourable. The rest undecided.
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  71. I guess his source is an article in CGTN a couple of days ago - “China’s non-fossil fuel power generation capacity exceeds 50%”. Whether you choose to believe this or not is of course up to you, but that’s where he got it.
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  72. Same as electric vehicles…
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  73.  @Leo555ZZZ  Do they? Appears to me Brits take what’s served up to them. Besides, where is your evidence Brits feel EVs are “pointless and harmful”?
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  74.  @taylorc2542  I expect the Chinese would be generally OK with that. They already have several such ventures. Volvo cars being a good example. Either way, they win. What I reckon European companies need to do is try to compete with China, albeit they’ve left that really late.
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  75.  @philiptaylor7902  Pretty much, yes. If you think about it, the same logic also applies to China. The Chinese are progressing well with ending their reliance on suppliers of fossil fuels.
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  76. What is the situation regarding EVs and insurance? As far as I hear it costs hugely to insure one, is that correct and is this just the insurance companies profiteering or instead actually reflects real costs and concerns? It doesn’t seem sensible, or fair, if manufacturers come to the party while insurance companies kill the market. I don’t have an EV, so have no personal experience.
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  77.  @22nikkoAA  The river Clyde used to be so covered with shipyards the people of Glasgow famously could never see it. All gone, and for the self same reason - atrocious management. And, like what we’re seeing here, who gets blamed? The people at the bottom of the heap, the ones who never made any decisions.
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  78.  @Withnail1969  I’m being realistic. From what I can see, humanoid robots seem to be pretty close to being up to low level human tasks. Take the cost of a robot and amortise it over say 10 years of working 24 hrs and I see cost advantages. Bring robot production costs down, improve task ability and it gets better and better. We there yet? Nope. Are you correct? Also nope.
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  79.  @No1careabU  I’d suggest this isn’t necessarily the case. Because, VW is seriously inhibited with liabilities that used to be assets. Their once impressive ICE manufacturing capacity is fast becoming a massive anchor they’re having to drag behind them. They can’t just dump it, but their ICE sales are failing and going nowhere but south. Companies like Tesla, NIO etc that set up from the beginning as EV makers are at a serious advantage.
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  80. Scotland has achieved that as well. And with more than the same capacity of green energy production either in planning or construction now we hope to become an exporter of green energy very soon. Mind you, we are a nation that has been producing bio-fuel for 500 years... ;)
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  81. Yeah, GMs probably terminal situation is entirely due to shop floor people wanting a decent return for their labour. It’s got nothing to do with the fact GM leadership, like other legacy auto leaders in the States and Japan, Germany etc have been asleep at the wheel while China and Tesla recognised where the world was going and planned and executed accordingly. GM are now trying to play catch up in a race they’ve already been lapped in. The shop floor people are building the obsolete, unwanted dinosaurs the leadership are telling them to, buddy. Blame the poor sods on the shop floor that rely on a salary every month if you prefer fantasy to reality.
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  82. Ehhh, what’s sun? Thanks, Scotland. We have the best wind in Europe, not too bad a deal either.
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  83. JMEV selling a sodium battery EV in China for $8400. That sounds cheap to me.
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  84. I don’t have much sympathy for the people running Nissan, they are much to blame for their current situation. However, it must be acknowledged that legacy auto makers have a really difficult job keeping their huge operational base afloat through selling ICE vehicles - while efficiently and rapidly transitioning to EV. What were massive assets for them (their ICE production capacity) are fast becoming expensive liabilities. Some are doing it better than others. Nissan is one of the others. I hope the poor folks working on the Nissan production lines don’t get screwed.
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  85. America is about to find out the world can live without it.
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  86.  @ryanrobinson2129  No, I reckon I’m entitled to my opinion about the Tesla design. Just as much as you are to disagree (politely). Enjoy the rest of your day.
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  87.  @MrEroshan  Beats me why EVs are considered "political".
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  88.  @teem5642  Elitism, that stays.
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  89. @mkashay  After 2030 in UK and 2035 in the EU, no matter how cheap any new ICE car is, it won't be sold.
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  90. @DG-hw8it  And what about when demand was booming? Which has been many, many years incidentally. Should a good company not make provisions for inevitable lean years? Seems like the shop floor is asked to shoulder the burden when the going is bad, but don't get a seat at the table when the going is good.
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  91. I’m fairly sure if you ask any of the people that have already lost their job, or those about to, what their feelings are about this incompetent carpetbagger, it won’t be “jealousy”.
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  92.  @yamerojones  Evidence?
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  93.  @danharold3087  Thanks, I was assuming you are in USA. I’m surprised at what you say, given I reckon people here in Scotland are generally positive toward EVs. There is range and charging anxiety, but not at a serious level and wouldn’t apply to school buses. With respect, what you’re saying sounds a bit Luddite.
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  94. Sorry, but I disagree, Kevin. Assuming they own a house, the second most expensive thing working class people buy in their lives is a car. It usually represents a fair chunk of their disposable income and cost usually influences their decision far, far more than where it's made. Here in Scotland I doubt they give a continental where a car is made - so long as it's priced competitively and gets a good reputation for reliability, back-up, running costs, style and performance. For me - politics comes at the very back of that decision making process.
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  95. If USA wants to become an American manufacturing nation again, they’re going to have to manufacture, in America ..! Given there’s only so much the management can screw shop floor wages down, if they want to manufacture competitively, they’ll have to do what they’re already paid a lot of money to do. Which is - learn how to design and build good stuff that people want at prices they can afford, and do it well..! That should prove a novel exercise for many of them…
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  96. Here in Scotland, we’re not exactly famous for sunny weather, but what we do have (in spades) is wind. Scotland today produces the equivalent of our entire electricity consumption from renewable sources. In addition to this, we also have as much again in planning or construction.
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  97.  @marvin3935  Yes, one of the most ambitious in the world. No more new ICE sales by 2030.
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  98.  @sargfowler9603  So did I. I seen how the Japanese turned things around. They did that using the exact same workforce. How do you explain that?
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  99. I'm in Scotland and can tell you Volvo semi's aren't "all over UK". In Scotland we have 2, that have arrived very recently and are part of a trial. I don't know the numbers for rest of UK, but I'm fairly certain there are very few EV semi's on the roads from any manufacturer.
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  100.  @dianewallace6064  Hi, there are many lighter EV trucks around, and buses, but the 44 ton class is still very much a rarity. On the other hand, we are seeing more and more projects being announced.
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  101.  @kenoliver8913  Yes, however I'd reckon Russia is far more dependent on China these days!
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  102. I live in a pretty cold country, but am unconvinced about the need for heated seats, or steering wheels. Once the cabin has heated up, you just don’t need them. I’d rather save the money instead.
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  103.  @No1careabU  Yes, that’s one way to soften the blow. But, even doing that, the auto industry in Europe comes out the end of that process diminished to the point of being unrecognisable. Worse in some Euro countries than others. Some places have little exposure, but for others it’ll mean a massive problem. In the case of Germany, we could be talking of an almost existential issue.
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  104.  @Alsmithize  And for the same reason. Bad management
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  105. In UK there was a hydrogen-like experiment some time ago with the introduction of LPG pumps at filling stations. There were companies offering LPG a conversions to make your vehicle a hybrid. The results were I expect the same as what to expect from hydrogen. A few people did so, but it just didn’t catch on.
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  106. You make your points well, but I'd disagree as follows.1. I suspect it'll take much longer than you estimate for supply to outstrip demand. EV as a % of the global fleet, while growing like a weed, is still tiny. 2. They're currently making hay while the sun shines - which is sensible, can they adapt as the market may evolve and demand - sure, why not? Why assume Tesla is run by stupid people? Can they make cheaper models, yes, and I expect they will when/if they feel they need to. 3. Their stated aim is 20% of the market, even if they somehow didn't adapt they'd probably have a good shot at that.
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  107.  @cocorna3282  Unions don’t make strategy decisions, management does. I think you’ll find it’s big auto that’s resisting change, especially in US. Possibly joined by big oil and gas.
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  108.  @AdamC5013  I see so many crazy comments from people is the US about renewable energy, especially when they bizarrely equate it with left wing politics. I’m a huge supporter of wind, solar, hydro etc, but because it makes total sense, nothing to do with politics. Why would you not want to get your energy from a source that will always be available, local and free..? Throw in environmental benefits and it’s a no brainier.
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  109.  @greyjamiesod4989  And yet when the Japanese took over car production in the North East it was a great success. What do you think made the difference?
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  110.  @plau2007  Do you have evidence that Chinese car manufacturers directly benefit from a lack of environmental government policy as compared to European ones?
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  111. @ True. I’m presently running my ICE into the ground on the basis it makes financial sense to do that rather than buy a second hand EV. I’d get very little for the ICE and it doesn’t cost much to run. However, it’s only making sense because I don’t drive much and therefore spend little on petrol. If I drove more it would quickly reverse. I expect there’s a lot of people in my situation.
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  112. Give it a rest, buddy….
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  113. I expect you’re right, but I wonder if there are also many people hanging onto their ICE cars a bit longer before they take the plunge to EV?
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  114. I agree, but I have sympathy for the thousands of workers who’s jobs will be at risk. They’ll pay the heaviest price for corporate leadership incompetence (and probably end up getting blamed).
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  115. @ Tesla is, even now, growing like a weed and making pots of money. I’m struggling to see them as “losing”. If BYD are growing faster, fine, that doesn’t mean Tesla, or any other company is “”losing”.
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  116.  @yammybolo222  I think I won’t find that. If you want to make 3 ton potential killing machines that go closely past people at high speed you need to do so safely and correctly. Nowadays you also need to ensure they don’t pollute our environments. Perhaps you’d be happy seeing such regulations and standards relaxed to allow cowboy operators, I wouldn’t. There are plenty new entrants in the auto industries around the world, especially in China, where there is around 90 companies now making EVs.
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  117. State subsidies are *good* if administered correctly, for an appropriate time and for the right reasons. The private sector,with a few exceptions, don’t think long term, but rather the next quarter.
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  118. I can’t claim to be any kind of expert about battery tech. But what I do know is that the global auto industry used to spend many billions $ annually on R&D usually squeezing out tiny enhancements to their ICE vehicles. They aren’t anymore, it’s either swinging toward EV or already has swung. Add to this the fact that the global battery industry is now ramping up to meet the EV led demand. They know the prize is the tsunami of money to be made for those leading in the transport revolution we are now in. They also know the threat for not leading is potential bankruptcy. When so much cash, energy, determination, government support and entrepreneurship is thrown at something, miracles can happen. At the start of WW2 air forces were flying double wing planes, by the end jet fighters roamed the skies. We’re going to see something similar in vehicle transport.
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  119.  @joythought No, I’m not, but of course you could try arguing my point rather than name calling.
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  120. Crazy to think we're only at the start of the electric car revolution..!
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  121. Cars are UKs biggest manufacturing export. But I suspect not for long.
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  122.  @patdbean Why would we need gas powered electricity generation if we had sufficient hydro, solar and wind power backed up with battery storage?
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  123. What about safety standards and training etc?
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  124.  @st-ex8506  I’d disagree about the effect of mandates, but I’d agree with your dates and overall conclusion. If we were to base a prediction of the future around mandates, then here in UK ICE car sales will end in 2030. Given the average life span of a car here is 12 years, then it follows that by 2042 pretty much all cars in UK will be EV. However that hides detail around what the population will be pa until then. BEV sales currently stand around 25%, and rising, so the ICE population is already reducing. I expect by the early 2030s EVs will be the norm.
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  125.  @NoiserToo  As far as energy production is concerned, Germany looks set to suffer harshly from the effects of losing cheaper Russian gas. However, given renewables with battery storage is proving the most cost effective (and cleanest) way forward, ultimately they should benefit hugely from ending their reliance on fossil fuels, whether from Russia or USA. Renewables is the only energy that’s source will be forever free, local, available and clean.
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  126. If VW leadership had seen the (Chinese) writing on the wall 10-20 years ago instead of burying their heads in the sand the people at the bottom of the VW heap just trying to make a living may not be facing losing their jobs. It’s not unions that make company decisions and set strategies. Leaders lead, and VW, like so many legacy auto makers has been busy leading their company over a cliff.
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  127. Which is ironic, given the Japanese did the same kind of thing to Europe and US a couple of generations ago. They, of all people, should have seen the writing on the wall, but have possibly been the most blind instead.
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  128. I'd suggest any prediction of fuel cost comparison between H2 and electricity in the future is brave if not impossible. While we don't know what the cost of electricity will be we do at least know it will have to be socially and economically acceptable. It's the same energy source we will light our homes with and power offices etc. But what will the price of a kg of H2 be in 5, 20, 50 years time? No one knows and no one can know.
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  129.  @paulstubbs7678  I point you to my response above. I appear to have misled with my comment. In fact I regard relying on the price of H2 as very risky.
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  130.  @drxym  Yes, I do know. However, SMR can be combined with CCUS, which is expensive, but nonetheless provides clean thermal energy that is required for such as cement manufacture. We shouldn’t forget there is a big market for carbon, in the food & drink industry especially. I don’t believe we will see H2 for cars, and indeed have expressed doubt we’ll see it in any capacity in on and off road transport.
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  131.  @chrisheath2637  That’s correct, but first principles tell us whatever price that is, it won’t be lower than the cost of the energy needed to produce it. The future will not be H2 based, it will be (renewably produced) electricity based. The only future I see for H2 is in thermal industry applications such as cement etc. The only question is how long it’ll take the future to arrive.
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  132. We are living in a period of huge global change, not just economically, but also in geopolitics, as the “royal” welcome given to Putin in his recent Middle East trip shows. In the past, I’m sure big (western) auto, oil and energy would have ensured they “managed” the transition from ICE to EV. It would’ve happened, but at a pace and nature they wanted, meaning of course best suited to their respective profit margins. That isn’t happening now. Why? Because China has emerged and they’re unwilling to play by the old western rule book and also big enough to cause global change. The old order is crumbling and EVs are a small part of that.
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  133.  @oceanwave4502  I get that, but when you look at the driving profile of the average American, you can’t help but conclude range shouldn’t be such an issue. What I found… Average car journey - 12 miles Average daily mileage - 30 miles Most trips to shops and commute etc Around 7% of trips over 30 miles (couldn’t find how many over, say, 100 miles, but must be really low… This should *not* mean range anxiety
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  134.  @ZweiZwolf  Haha. I’m not sure you’re preaching to the right congregation. I’m a Scot and a committed Scottish independence supporter.
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  135. I agree. I don't get it, why on earth don't people see EVs as the massive improvement that they are? Less pollution, less noise, less servicing and maintenance, less replacement parts, less things to go wrong, less cost to fuel..... Why do we see such negativity? I reckon it's just fear of change.
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  136.  @milhad.salihi  Sure, I see that, I just get a bit frustrated when I see people routinely default to blaming the workforce for what are clearly management faults. If you analyse what the difference to the selling price a, say, 10% shop floor wage increase vs a 5% would mean to the selling price of a car you’d be surprised just how incredibly small it is. You then have to ask yourself - are there alternatives to simply adding that cost into the selling price, could not the company cut sky high executive packages, or dividends or try to lower the energy bill, or, heaven forbid, make cars people want to buy? You have to ask those questions, because you can bet your bottom dollar the management won’t.
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  137. For generations the Chinese market has been a huge and very lucrative happy hunting ground (and still is) for western and Japanese legacy auto makers. I think it’s a bit unfair now that China wants to return the favour that the drawbridge gets raised.
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  138. I can understand why some people may buy a second hand ICE, but not why they would buy a new one.
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  139.  @TomTom-dy6qr  No, the unions are not just destructive, to imagine them to be is to overlook the obvious, that they're there to help their members. How would it help them or their members to be mindlessly destructive? You may believe them to be suicidal and stupid, but that doesn't make sense. Have you been party to union negotiations, have you heard their side? Do you weigh up both sides every time you side with management? Or do you get your info from the right wing tabloids?
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  140.  @kevinmoffatt  Sounds like you believe shop floor workers would fare better if unions didn't exist. Do you believe that, Kevin? Do you believe they'd do better taking what management and owners decide they're worth and saying thanks? Coz I don't.
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  141. Definition of scape goat, right there.!
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  142.  @SWR112 Yes, but we need a lot more green energy, in fact electricity oniy accounts for around a third of energy use in Scotland and UK. We’ll need another two thirds to power transport and heating. And if we want to export it, which we will, we’ll need more again.
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  143.  @daviddill5227 I think you’re being overly pessimistic about the rise of EVs. Yes, currently the growth has slowed, and yes, some companies are changing their - I’d say emphasis rather than overall direction, but does that mean EVs won’t ultimately replace ICE? No, I think at most it may delay an inevitability. In so many ways EVs are (already) simply better than ICE, as steam was to sail, as cars were to horses, and they’re rapidly and consistently improving. Soon I reckon they’ll beat ICE on probably every metric, including price. Leaving only “petrol heads” unconvinced. Whether you love EVs or hate them, the writing on the wall seems to be saying one thing.
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  144.  @marianbiznesu1899  Nope. VW were raking in huge money for years (esp in China) while, unseen by their incompetent management, their market was disappearing. You can’t blame the person on the assembly line for that, no matter how much you want to.
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  145.  @marianbiznesu1899  and union does not mean “workers fault”…
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  146. It strikes me that China won’t need to retaliate to Western EV protectionism by imposing tariffs against their cars because the Chinese market is marching relentlessly toward their own suppliers. They’re simply outselling Western makers through better products at better prices. The Chinese have adopted the adage of never interrupting your enemy while they’re making a mistake.
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  147. I disagree with your predictions about Tesla, but agree that Musk is fast becoming a liability. The guy should stick to engineering and tech, where he’s strong, and forget about politics, where he’s a fool.
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  148.  @jarrodf_  Yeah, I see you, but what’s also true is that growth stocks go up and down like a yo-yo. Musk dominates Tesla, for sure, but even he isn’t immune to the men in gray suits. He seems to be going further and further out on that limb, though… I’m a complete amateur at the stocks and shares game, but one thing I’ve learnt is that very few usually have much clue what’s going to happen. I suppose if we did, we’d all be on yachts in the Med.
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  149.  @jimpackard8059  Actually Jim, we are adopting this technology. As you will see starting throughout next year and ramping up thereafter. There are several major transport projects planned that will kick start large scale EV transport in UK and Scotland.
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  150.  @Ria-hx8nl  What about the value of the asset itself? I’d pay more for your house if it had such a system installed. People install conservatories etc that have no payback, but they still do it.
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  151. I suspect that day's not too far away and I also suspect the vehicle you buy will be Chinese.
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  152. Or not…..
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  153.  @herman9255  No, it isn’t. Not anymore at least. Why? China.
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  154.  @Withnail1969  Not soon, but ever? I’m of the opposite opinion. For me it’s a racing certainty we’ll be seeing them before long.
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  155.  @Withnail1969  And the first cars had a guy walking in front waving a red flag. But before long….
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  156. Yeah, but as soon as the strong have destroyed the weak, they then turn on each other.
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  157.  @CTHN7  Hi, yes I’d agree that seems to be the direction US is going. However, where will US be after that couple of decades down that road? The biggest auto market in the world today, by a clear margin, is China, after that you have Europe and US roughly equal with the others much further down the pack. China will be 100% EV within a decade or 15 years max, so will Europe and I suspect most other of the smaller markets. EV tech will have moved forward in all transport sectors, led, we must assume, by China. US will be isolated and alone, still making yesterdays tech for its own marooned market, which for a once mighty, profitable and global auto industry, will leave it a shadow of itself.
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  158. I keep hearing about unfair Chinese practices, OK, fair enough, but why do we never seem to get details about how they work?
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  159.  @skylershank9309  yes, not workforce...
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  160. Sobering for Europe that only VW coming in at 9th place to represent Europe in global EV sales. How are the mighty fallen, in the midst of battle....
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  161. Good point! However, I reckon wrt electric vehicles, China is probably more in danger of being copied than copying.
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  162.  @benmlee  It's not in the letter, it's on their website as their opening strategy statement. I also note Stellantis have distanced themselves from the letter. But yeah, why is a predominantly ICE producer alliance urging Trump to keep Biden's EV policy? And - why is Elon Musk urging Trump to end it? Same reason, but for very different motives. Legacy auto doesn't want to end EVs, they know it's coming and want to control (slow down) it's adoption. However, currently they are struggling to make EVs profitably. Musk wants an end to vehicle subsidies because Tesla can lower prices (profitably) and is happy to see ICE slow down their adoption rates. He's OK with cornering the EV market in US for a while.
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  163. Munger proof that while old men generally shrink, their ears keep growing. He could hear grass growing with those beauties...😂
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  164.  @wolfgangpreier9160 lithium in batteries can be totally and permanently recycled. The challenge at this time is the cost to do so, which is greater than mining new lithium.
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  165.  @martina5328  and they offer battery lease. So it’s not even your battery.
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  166.  @aoeuuaoaou  I’m sure economies of scale will reduce the cost too. I don’t know what would happen if we move to sodium, would it even be worth recycling?
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  167. Yeah, whatever went on, it was never bad management decisions.
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  168.  @lukenysen i dont foresee the most obvious use of H2 being for EVs, rather for industry. Industrial processes like cement manufacturing, ceramics, steel, chemicals, distillation etc need (lots of) heat, which is currently provided by fossil fuels.
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  169. Sam is correct to say UK is building more (very expensive) nuclear power stations, but my country (Scotland) is not. The Scottish govt has refused to allow new nuclear stations to be built and we have recently reduced our existing nuclear stations to just one, which will also close in the near future. Scotland now generates the equivalent of all of our electricity demand from renewables with much more being added every year.
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  170. China can punish Europe with high tariffs.
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  171. I would suggest you're missing how the energy industry is rapidly moving from fossil fuel to renewables. Take a look at what energy projects are being planned and consented and see where it's going. Solar and wind combined with battery storage is fast becoming the goal. Solar power is already by now the cheapest form of energy on the planet. As for whether an EV is zero emission or not, that depends on whether you are measuring Tank to Wheels (it is) or Well to Wheels (it isn't, yet). I'd say the world is on an electric journey with pretty much its own momentum by now. Like it or loath it - it's coming.
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  172. Perhaps a wee bit harsh, but it can’t be argued that a lack of intelligence over the future of the auto industry got them where they are now.
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  173. Why would they want to build in Brexit UK?
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  174. I suspect the Brexit disaster torpedoed that chance, buddy. They will build another Euro factory but I expect in somewhere like Barcelona or Marseilles. Berlin to supply north and east Europe, the other to supply the south.
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  175.  @Mal-ey2mm  Yes, maybe. I reckon they may build something in UK, maybe a battery factory.
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  176. I'm a Tesla fan, but have to say I rate NIO innovation and battery strategy better, at least in respect of auto manufacture.
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  177.  @4literv6  Yes, you make very good points. Incidentally, you can charge your NIO at home too... :)
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  178.  @4literv6  Yeah, I mentioned that Tesla is the clear world leader, inc China. But you’re right, the US legacy auto industry is fast asleep at the wheel.
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  179.  @steveinoz8188  No. Senior management, who are the people responsible for the situation VW finds itself in due to catastrophically bad leadership, will walk out with far more. Leaving the people at the bottom with an uncertain future. It won’t bother them.
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  180.  @yamerojones  That’s not even remotely close to “proof”. It’s just opinion.
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  181.  @markjonz  I expect you’re right, but surely, just as for battery tech advances, we can’t rule out advances in fuel cell tech..? Generally I’m sceptical about H2 in transport, in fact I only see a place for it in thermal based industry, but I wouldn’t want to rule things out. OK, edit… I reckon we can safely rule H2 out for cars, which is the subject of this article. Toyota are on a highway to liquidation with that strategy.
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  182. Pardon my ignorance, but can an EV with 2 motors continue driving if 1 motor fails?
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  183.  @JohnSmith-x3y8h  If not 10...
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  184.  @talkingBS  I agree, generally, but I believe Tesla is the American exception that proves the Chinese rule. Tesla may own the future on a company basis, but on a national scale, it’s all about China.
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  185. Here in the UK we have a special place for politicians like that. It’s called the House of Lords.
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  186. To be fair, that’s been said about Germany before….
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  187. Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi. How 1+1+1 can equal less than 1.
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  188. Renewables will move the energy debate from having enough energy supply to meet our needs to meeting our *wants*
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  189. I'd say industry buyers need to be very aware of what's coming in the near future too when making current decisions. Does anyone seriously doubt today's power density, weight, range and recharge stats will continually improve? Developments like sodium and solid state look likely to provide step changes rather than incremental. If I were a buyer I'd want to do what is practical and easier now by focussing on the lighter loads and shorter journeys, shorter in use time etc and leave the decisions about heavy stuff for a little while yet. There's masses of transport requirements that suit present capabilities - focus on that for now. Performance will go up and I think prices will come down. That's going to be the trend.
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  190.  @juliahello6673  Santa coming soon. Just as real.
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  191. I don’t think market trends of EV uptake will be linear, S curves don’t work like that and I reckon an S curve is what we’re seeing. In China (and Norway) first, with the rest of us afterward.
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  192.  @BRunner12 The beauty of renewables is the source is always free, available and local. Compare that with fossil fuels.
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  193. There’s a big difference between the auto industries in Europe/US and China. Western legacy companies have massive assets (factories etc) constructed around ICE manufacture, where China’s companies have largely started from an EV base (BYD stated as a battery company). So, this means that what were considered huge assets are now moving toward being huge liabilities. 2 different support scenarios.
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  194. Yes, it does have access to the EU market and has opened many outlets there. In UK, where I am, they have an outlet not far from where I live for example. The EU has imposed tariffs on them, but that isn’t stopping them.
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  195. ​ @1InVader1 most won't, but there are lines that will be uneconomic to convert to electric. I know, I live in a village in Scotland served by one.
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  196.  @dharley189 Actually regardless of what you believe to be the truth, one thing you can be sure of is that you won’t make your own decision. Not in the longer term at least. Where I live it will be impossible to buy a new ICE car from 2035, and more and more difficult between now and then. I’m don’t know where you live, but suspect you probably have a similar future ahead. Whether you like it, or not.
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  197.  @dharley189  I’m a huge fan of EVs and am convinced of their inevitability regardless what I believe. I’m a practical Scot and they just make so much more sense to me, both for the environment and in technology/manufacturing terms. We’re only at the start of the EV revolution and todays EVs will be antiques in a few years. Battery tech in particular will carry on improving, not least because of the $bns being spent on it annually. Before long, there will simply be no comparison with ICE. I also believe self driving cars will bring profound change too. The age of the “personal car” could be coming to a close, to be replaced by TAAS (transport as a service).
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  198. Let's face facts. Tesla's overwhelming domination of the EV car market (generally) was never going to last forever. Likewise it was just as illogical to believe more mass production, manufacturing improvements and increased competition wouldn't ultimately lead to lower prices. All we're seeing is the "new" auto market starting to evolve and mature. Tesla is still looking very, very strong to me and looking likely to be one of the leading global auto makers, possibly the biggest.
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  199.  @Withnail1969  Yes, the Euro economy will suffer, the only upside being a quicker, if more painful, transition to renewable energy.
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  200.  @Withnail1969  There is a transition. Look at the lists of proposed energy generation projects globally and their nature. Predominately they’re for, as you put it, sunshine and breezes. We can, we are, and we will, transit to a renewable energy future and the only thing that puzzles me is why some people don’t want that.
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  201.  @Withnail1969  I don't have to, I already know the vast bulk of energy we use today is from fossil fuels, I also know it will take time to transit away from that and indeed we have ambitious target dates provided by many countries to do exactly that, including the one I'm in and I'm going to guess yours too. I was referring to your comment "There is no transition". There is. There is a huge transition and it's happening as we write.
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  202. Nothing, but it does mean you're not the one being copied....
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  203. Remind me how the unions created Deiselgate, while you're at it, also remind me how the unions ignored the threat from China while it built up it's auto industry, in plain sight, over the last 20 years or so. Explain to me how labour is the critical factor and cost element in auto manufacture, as opposed to other factors. Coz that's the kind of things killing VW and Ford, not the poor sods trying to scrape a living on the shop floor. The fish rots from the head.
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  204. How? Can't say I'm looking at VW in an existential crisis and thinking - that was the workforce. What about Dieselgate, the shop floor people cause industrial fraud at Olympic level? Dunno about banning the VW leadership, but a spell behind bars might be more fair, don't you think?
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  205. @ It appears to me that not many at VW had much of a clue, but to make the unions “directly responsible” is fantasy.
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  206.  @chrismiller7661  Only if you, for whatever reason, chose to believe what I said meant anything of the kind. I said none of them have a clue, which you’ll see clearly, if you read it. If you choose to blame the unions for the VW situation, crack on. The world is full of people with strange notions. One more won’t matter.
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  207. Agreed, nothing is cheaper than talk….
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  208. We seem to be in an environment of significant and continual technological development of battery tech. It’s hardly surprising I suppose give the $bns of battery tech R&D that must be being spent globally. How soon before these developments are seen as outdated, couple of years, one year, a month..? Where will battery tech be in, say, 2030? Are we looking at game over for fossil fuels for energy then? Are we already looking at it?
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  209. Could that number perhaps be skewed by a big corporate purchase? Not that that makes buying an H2 car any saner.
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  210. Plagiarise, plagiarise - let no-one's work evade your eyes..... If it makes sense (and is legal) - good strategy. Should lead you to think why you're having to do that though....
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  211. @TheLDunn1  Yes, but he's also a big fan of EVs too.
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  212. I reckon the lure of money will do that all on it's own. No assistance required.
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  213.  @ISuperTed  I disagree. I don’t believe the increase in EV sales will be incremental, there will be a tipping point and ICE sales will start tanking. In fact we’re either at it already or close.
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  214. @ I’m kinda the same. For me we don’t need to even bother thinking environment (although we should) EV is simply the better choice all round.
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  215.  @ISuperTed  The market will do it. There's bucks to be made.
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  216. I agree, but there are exceptions - the once biggest auto maker in the world (Toyota) are still saying H2 is the way forward. A week or so ago they just released their H2 pickup in Europe. A sure fire way to end your domination of the car market, if you ask me.....
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  217.  @jsanders100  I agree, but why do you assume unions are bent on courses of actions that would ultimately destroy what they want to preserve, why do you assume they don’t just want a say in how it’s transformed? As I ask, does anyone ever research into their side of the debate, hear their explanations of what they’re doing and why they’re doing it? If so, I don’t see it, including Sam.
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  218.  @oldbloke204  People (still) get their perceptions of unions largely from the established media. Which is predominately owned by and reflects the views of the right wing of society. The right wing hates unions.
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  219.  @celanian8188  Depends who you listen to I suppose. Evidence? For example, do you really believe the unions complicit in Dieselgate?
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  220.  @celanian8188  So, according to that description, the unions pretty much run VW. Which makes me wonder how VW execs have just announced possible plans to close 2 factories, cancel wage rises and end job guarantees? The unions are threatening strikes, who are they threatening - themselves?
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  221.  @celanian8188  OK, just checked and your description is a bit misleading. Firstly, it’s clear the “sole responsibility” for running VW lies with the Management Board, not the Supervisory Board, however you are correct to say the Supervisory Board appoints and monitors the board, but… it is only “consulted directly” on major decisions, not take them. If your analysis was correct, then why are the unions threatening to strike over the recent announcements around plant closures, ending of job guarantees and cancelling of wage rises? They could just veto them. Sorry, but it seems clear who runs VW, and it’s not the unions.
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  222.  @celanian8188  OK, just looked through the composition of the Supervisory Board. I can’t reconcile it with your description at all.
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  223.  @celanian8188  We appear to be in the long grass around how and who runs VW. Whoever they are, and whoever they represent, they’ve been pretty rubbish at their job, I think we can agree. In their defence I could only say they’re in good company as other legacy makers are the same or even worse. For me, I reckon the Japanese are taking the bottom spot when it comes to bad legacy management. But my point was originally made not to criticise the VW management in particular as apposed to counter the usual “union-bashing” that we see from some, including the lead comment. However VW is led, it is not by unions. In fact, the present conflict between unions and management would lead to the opposite conclusion. PS “notoriously” labour friendly? Is being labour friendly a bad thing?
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  224.  @celanian8188  I suspect he’s already cleared that with the board, in their consultation role. Even to make the announcement has affected the company significantly. Wrt your example of wanting to double your wages, I know it’s not a serious analogy, but I think you’re doing unions a general disservice to assume they’d agree to such a proposal if it was clear the effect would indeed be to endanger the company. Their job is a wholistic one to look after the employees best interest (while taking the best interest of the company into consideration), and being made redundant obviously is the opposite of that. They’re not, unlike what some believe, either stupid or reckless people, just as employers (normally) aren’t either. However, in the case of the legacy auto industry, I’m putting the blame for the invidious position they’re in, which will get far worse, squarely on the shoulders of the employers.
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  225.  @celanian8188  We must agree to differ, albeit I’d just point out if your only example is decades ago perhaps you may want to look at more current situations. Have a nice day.
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  226.  @celanian8188  Incidentally, company pensions are kept out of the hands of the company you’re employed by. This happened after R Maxwell notoriously stole his employees pensions. I’m an example, one of the companies I worked for went bust (due to atrocious management investment decisions) but I still get a pension from their policy. Generally, do you think workers would be better off today if unions hadn’t been invented, or worse off?
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  227. Who started the trip to unemployment they are "accelerating"?
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  228. I can't talk for the rest of Europe but here in Scotland, it doesn't surprise me that sales of BYD are slow (right now) and that's because most people haven't heard of them. As for NIO and Xpeng, I'm not even aware whether they're on sale here or not, if they are, they're invisible That's not a "catastrophic failure", it's to be expected. What would be a catastrophic failure is if that continues. I attended a major energy exhibition in Glasgow recently and visited the stand of Arnold Clark, one of the biggest car retailers in the country that has just (very) recently started selling BYD in earnest - they had 5 EVs on the stand, 3 of which were Chinese owned - BYD, MG and Polestar. From what I could see, the car getting the most attention was the BMW (also most expensive) but the next was the BYD Atto 3. Give them a chance to fail before you bury them, Sam... The same situation happened with Japanese and Korean cars - before mass uptake. I don't believe people will happily buy a Korean car, but will refuse to buy a Chinese one. Are Scots different to other Europeans in this regard? I doubt it.
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  229.  @MoDa87  Yeah, that would definitely help. My point is that I believe Sam wrong about China being the determining factor. Working people think price before politics.
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  230.  @stevenbarrett7648 Yes about management, no about workers. Take Nissan, who replaced UK management and UK workforce with Japanese management and UK workforce in Sunderland. Made Sunderland one of the most productive plants in Europe. What’s your conclusion, I know what mine is.
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  231. @ My tuppenceworth says it’s leadership that controls the direction of companies, including toward liquidation, not the shop floor workers. The media will tell us the shop floor labour cost are *the* determining factor in whether a company can sell cars at the right price. It’s not. Labour costs are actually quite a small portion of overall cost. There’s plenty other ways to cut costs - dividends, director and top management packages, bonuses, profits, dealer margins, cutting energy costs, cutting materials costs etc. But, we never hear about that, eh? If I look at the situation companies like VW, Ford and Stellantis are in, I see them facing the wall, and I’m putting the blame firmly where it should be - at the boardroom door.
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  232.  @jamesheath7596  yes, it’s not just the sky high cost of German energy that’s killing their car industry.
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  233. Nonsense. The leadership leads, and in this case - to ruin. You’re blaming the victim.
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  234.  @HNedel  You’re dreaming. Even if that fantasy was true, it’d be their fault for letting it happen. The buck stops with the leadership, that’s what they get paid mega bucks for.
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  235. Is what China wants to do in Mexico exploiting a loophole, or rather acting completely within the rules set up by the US? At the end of the day China want to do things that are totally allowed via the current framework. If there is a “Mexico loophole”, it’s a bloody obvious one, so surely the blame is with the people who set the rules that China is adhering to. Looks more to me like US just want to stop BYD selling in US - at all. Which is OK, so long as they don’t mind the Chinese doing the same and barring US cars from the biggest market on the planet. Good luck with that, US.
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  236. There’s protectionism, right there….
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  237.  @sunrisejak2709  I ensure to make my comments as un-controversial as possible and still get quite a few that disappear, or more usually, don’t appear. There doesn’t seem to be any obvious rational how it works. Weird, eh? I’m more pessimistic about Toyota than you, I think they’re simply (and disastrously) on the wrong track and their hitherto strength in having massive assets by way of ICE dominance in both sales and production facilities is fast becoming a liability. “The bigger they are, the harder they fall”. (Here’s hoping this gets over the bar…) ;)
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  238. Surely worth a try?
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  239. Will Tesla become an energy supplier? Selling energy rather than equipment and software.
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  240. @ The present ones have been ripping us off for donkey’s years. Perhaps Tesla might treat us a bit better. Couldn’t be worse, is my take.
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  241.  @NoiserToo  The only place I see a realistic chance of protectionism happening is in the US, and even there only partially. If they isolate themselves in a kind of auto industry Jurassic Park all that’ll do is ensure they suffer even more in the long run. In the past, big auto and big oil and gas in the US (and Europe, Japan) would’ve exerted their usual influence and ensured the EV revolution happened at their pace and at their price. But China doesn’t play by western rules, they’ve put a bowling ball straight into the western skittles.
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  242. ​ @st-ex8506  It's difficult to see anything other than EVs having already passed a global tipping point. Sure there's opposition, esp in USA, but they're sticking fingers in the dyke. All the US will do is create an isolated, auto industry Jurassic Park that the rest of the world will build a bypass around.​
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  243.  @NoiserToo  Well, it hasn’t yet, and while I don’t doubt Trump’s love affair with big oil and gas, my bet would be more of gently applying the brakes rather than any screeching halt. After all, look who his best buddy is these days - the richest guy in the world by a country mile who’s arguably most associated with renewable energy than anyone on the planet. How would you square that circle? As for Europe, I disagree we’ll turn around, I really can’t see that. If USA decides to take itself into a fossil fuels backwater for a generation, they’ll be making a big mistake. By the time it re-emerges, the rest of us will be far ahead technically and will have learnt to live without it.
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  244.  @crosslink1493  So, making it impossible to buy a cheap EV made abroad isn't a govt decree saying "it will be done like this"? There's more than one way to dictate how things are gonna work - either say "it will be done like this", or, say "It won't be done like this".
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  245.  @Leo555ZZZ  Have a look at pics and videos of Chinese cities around 20 or so years ago. They're usually covered in toxic smog. It was recognised as a major problem. Then look now.
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  246. How did unions do that when labour constitutes such a small cost element? Have a look at the Chinese car industry and see how they're outcompeting the west and Japan - because they have every cost element honed to perfection. Contrary to right wing media BS, the shop floor does not determine whether a company succeeds or not. PS, don't have a look - in right wing media.
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  247.  @bellumCretatus  The point I was (obviously badly) trying to make was that, while we can be relatively assured that electricity will be affordable, we cannot for H2.
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  248.  @shirishag75able  You don’t think solid state batteries are coming?
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  249. @choosewisely4722 Actually I would be a big fan of moving to renewable energy whether there was a climate crisis or not. Assuming the tech is viable, which I believe it is, why would we not move to energy from a source that will be always free, always local and always available? I also believe it will, after we invest in the necessary infrastructure, become cheaper too. But what I think is irrelevant, since I believe that is where the world is heading, regardless of what we’re saying on this forum.
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  250.  @shirishag75able  Yes, I agree, I reckon solid state will probably be the platform of choice by the end of the decade and yes, Toyota are full of enough shit to fertilise Canada.
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  251. @choosewisely4722 What I said was that I believe renewably produced electricity will become cheaper than that from fossil fuel. But... I'm aware that will take time and as of now the big majority of energy we consume is fossil fuel based. So there will be a energy transition period where certain solutions may be used while renewable supply meets demand. H2 could be both a transition fuel in certain industrial applications and perhaps an ultimate solution in others. However - that does not include road transport, where I view H2, even as a transition fuel, to be a wrong and frankly stupid choice. The verdict for cars is already apparent and is being (wisely) decided by market forces. Only a few deluded H2 zealots believe in H2 for cars, as the numbers very clearly show. I believe EV will also be the choice for HGV and HDV as well. Battery tech is already viable for the majority of road transport and new battery developments will soon make H2 redundant in the few applications H2 supporters are still holding out for. Toyota has been, and still is, making gravely stupid, reckless and selfish decisions that I believe could either liquidate them altogether or see them transformed into some kind of lesser entity. If the ramifications of their actions were only to be felt by their stupid leaders I'd say fine, but sadly it won't, their stupidity will affect all the way up to national level.
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  252. @choosewisely4722 If H2 were the only zero emission solution for transport I'd be for it. But it isn't, there's a far better one, you don't have to be "so against" something to rank it a bad 2nd out of 2. Why is it 2nd..? well that's a big discussion, which I note many commenters have already described, but suffice to say I just can't see how using energy to power an electrolyser to create H2 to power a fuel cell to power a battery to create motion can ever beat using the same energy to charge a battery for the same motion, but perhaps you can enlighten me on that. As for the lithium mining/refining cost, that is factored into the price of the vehicle (same as you would need to factor in the cost of the extra energy you'd need to power electrolysers and the many extra components needed for H2 cars), and EVs are generally reducing in price, a trend I believe will continue with many commenters now predicting upcoming price parity of EVs with ICE. I don't believe we will see every EV battery made from lithium, you forget the global $billions that is currently being poured into battery development and the many advancements we constantly see, such as sodium and solid state. But even if we were somehow confined to lithium (price of which has plummeted recently), I still don't regard that as an insurmountable barrier. The shortage is of refining capacity, rather than lithium itself. You are correct to point out recent movements in share values, and I'm no stockbroker, but one thing I do know is that share prices, esp of growth stocks, go up and down like a yoyo, if you want to base an argument on that - good luck.
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  253. @choosewisely4722 You appear to agree with everything and disagree with everything. I frankly have no idea what you want, apart from an argument. Which I'm sorry I'm not inclined to further oblige you with. Whatever it is you want, I hope you find it.
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  254. Nope. Companies destroy companies. Who makes the decisions? Unions?
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  255.  @jay90374  Yup, making excuses for them and letting them off with gross negligence far better.
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  256. In the case of the UK that’s perhaps because they’re busy building what was described as “the most expensive building on the planet” by way of the new nuclear station at Hinckley, to be followed by another at Sizewell. Your grandchildren will die of old age paying for those money furnaces.
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  257. You use a strange logic. Yes, UK did indeed go from a manufacturing powerhouse to a manufacturing cripple within a couple of decades. And yes, that did coincide with the utterly ruinous era of Thatcher’s “Year Zero” insane economic policies. She didn’t even pretend otherwise, in fact they were kind of proud of it. Did it never perhaps strike you it was her and her bunch of swivel eyed, lunatic zealots to blame?
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  258.  @davidbrayshaw3529  100% correct. But hey, blame the guy on the machine, eh? Brit management combined with Thatcherism - there isn’t an economy on the planet could survive that combo.
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  259.  @davidbrayshaw3529  UK economic policy (Labour and Tory) has been to keep costs down via; suppression of unions and therefore wages, plus importing cheap labour. In the past from the ex colonies and latterly from Eastern Europe. Add to that centralisation around London and over reliance on the City. Cheap labour becoming more and more difficult and London packed already. Brexit will lead to increased competition in UK financial sector. UK running out of rope.
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  260. “A little over the top”..? Thatcher the Destroyer and her band of idiotic, swivel-eyed, right wing zealots levelled Brit manufacturing. Her “Year Zero” approach to economics was catastrophic and the evil effect of her regime is still being felt to this day. She transformed UK from a global factory to a Londoncentric hub for spivs, grifters, tax haven junkies and money launderers. Over the top, yeah, sure, if Genghiz Khan was a bit on the harsh side.
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  261. I expect many will wake up to unemployment. I also expect they won't be happy with the current auto industry leadership for putting them there.
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  262. America is staring into the barrel of the realisation they have now lost leadership of the global auto industry, an industry formerly synonymous with the US. What’s more, their successor is communist China. That’s gonna screw with their heads.
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  263. Well said! We never seem to hear about executive bonus, director packages or dividend reductions much, do we?
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  264.  @jondonnelly3  Yes, I’ll take that point. Range not the only factor.
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  265.  @ZweiZwolf  I couldn’t find how many trips the average American makes that are over 300 miles. But I did find a survey that said only 6.9% of journeys are over 30 miles. So, logically the number of 300+ mile journeys must be vanishingly thin. Meaning, for the overwhelming majority of Americans, current EVs would be more than enough for their needs. Incidentally, why would you hire a car to do a journey over 300 miles when you could just use your own EV and take a break and charge somewhere?.
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  266.  @ZweiZwolf  Sure, I get that. Looks like what’s needed are good EVs with a, say, 300+ range coming in around $40k or under. Wonder where those could be found?
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  267.  @ZweiZwolf  Yes, but they do in China. Look, if I were American I reckon I’d want to keep them out as well, at least for now. However, everything has a cost…..
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  268.  @ZweiZwolf  OK, from what I see that would put you in a minority? I’m detecting a lot of US resistance to that idea. Where I am, in UK, it’s very different. The new Labour Govt has just announced there will be no tariffs on Chinese EVs and they have a target of no new ICE cars by 2030. Im dubious they’ll achieve that, even importing masses of Chinese EVs,
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  269.  @ZweiZwolf  Actually, while there’s (almost) no indigenous car industry in UK, cars are the number 1 UK exported good. The biggest manufacturers are; Stellantis (Vauxhall), Nissan and JLR (Jaguar Land Rover) - owned by Tata of India. While nowhere near the importance of the German auto industry, it’s still a major employer in UK. Indeed the example of UK, once a leader in the global auto industry and now a nobody, should serve to remind Americans that no one’s place in the world is guaranteed. The UK players are in a very precarious situation, especially Vauxhall, so I would suggest there are major issues around flooding the UK market with Chinese EVs, but that’s my guess what’s about to happen nonetheless. Of course Brexit, which I consider the worst economic decision in Brit history, isn’t helping either.
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  270.  @nickmcconnell1291 You think big auto, big energy and big oil don’t manipulate the “free” markets?
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  271. Dunno where you are, but here in UK all you need to do is type in "electric vehicle chargers near me"
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  272.  @djt8518  Where do you live - Uzbekistan?
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  273. Even though I support FSD software and autonomous vehicles, I'll still freak out the first time I see a normal car driving along a road by itself.
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  274. Sort of agree. I agree that kind of range would suit most car drivers, but there’s HDV and HGV to consider and generally developing more affordable, lighter, power dense and smaller batteries is something we need to continue. There’s also the need to use more environmentally friendly and available materials, such as sodium etc. Going out on a limb a bit I’d also suggest adoption of FSD software and robotaxis will probably reduce the numbers of private cars too. If there’s eventually a robotaxi on every corner, we won’t need anything like as many personal vehicles.
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  275. @ You’re right, but you’d think the opposite if you read the media. Like the shop floor makes strategic decisions…
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  276.  @ravanpee1325  Poor decision by Mercedes. A happy workforce is a productive workforce.
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  277.  @aaaces01  If you mean you need to pay less wages, you'd have to convince me of that. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
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  278.  @visualpref  Govt spending can either be good or bad. It depends what they're spending it on.
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  279.  @ravanpee1325  Sounds like bad management to me!
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  280.  @ravanpee1325  Who's decision?
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  281.  @ravanpee1325  OK, it's up to management to make the decisions then. So who is more responsible for VWs situation, management, or people on the shop floor?
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  282.  @ravanpee1325  You didn't answer my question.
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  283. @ Which means 55% that can do something they couldn’t before. Fuel at home.
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  284.  @crosslink1493  Yes, fair points (presently), although I expect improving charging equipment to reduce that inconvenience steadily. However, unlike gas stations, there’s gonna be far, far more charging points. At gyms, cinemas, shopping malls - basically anywhere you can park. All offering the opportunity to charge up while you do other things. People will adapt to the very changed fuelling environment, as they’re doing in China where most EV owners live in apartments.
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  285.  @aendoh  Why don’t you make it sensible then?
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  286.  @sargfowler9603  Do you own a car? Do you have a petrol pump in your garage? No? Then how are you able to drive? How do you reckon the millions of Chinese people living in apartments that own an EV cope? It’s called a charging network. Look up “Electric vehicle charging points near me” on your laptop.
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  287.  @joecushman6030  People aren't thinking straight about the change from gas fuelling to recharging. They think we're going to "swap" gas stations for charging stations. In reality, it's going to change completely, with charging points everywhere people park cars, including kerbside. It's going to change from something we do specifically to something we do while we do other things. Chargepoints already outnumber gas pumps in many countries, and we're only at the start of the recharge network.
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  288.  @kevinW826  If EVs are "worthless" after a year, my advice would be to get yourself a bargain and buy one a year old. Then shop around for insurance, you're getting ripped off.
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  289. @ OK, you do what you think is right, but, EVs are coming, whatever you think.
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  290. Massive strikes at a time when people are wondering whether VW has any future does not spell win win to me. To me it spells - " how did mismanagement lead them here".
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  291.  @AMortalDefiant  incidentally, I don’t reckon the Chinese will resort to protectionism against US automakers selling in China. They won’t need to. Sales of ICE are already vanishing into the distance in China without the Chinese needing to seem combative or risk trade repercussions. The Chinese are happy adopting the old adage of never interrupting your enemy while he’s making a mistake.
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  292. Yup, no questions around leadership, profits, dividends, executive packages, bonuses etc. Always the poor schmuck on the assembly line. Their pals in the media back up their nonsense and people believe it.
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  293. These goddam Chinese, who’d have thought when we helped them become the world’s leading auto nation while raking in billions from them they’d have the temerity to actually learn how to compete with us?!
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  294. So who will protect the rights and livelihoods of the workers? Or do they just accept what management and owners decide, regardless how wrong or bad that may be?
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  295.  @jay90374  What I actually asked was who, if not unions, is out there on the side of the workforce? Taking their side? Because they usually have one, eh? Not that we normally hear about it from the right wing gutter press. There are precious few working class people sitting on lifetime guarantees of employment, Brit Lords and royalty being a few that are. You can take their guarantees away anytime you like.
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  296.  @danharold3087  I'm curious why you believe that of school boards. Is that because of perceived safety concerns around battery drive trains? My guess is here in Scotland the opposite would be the case.
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  297.  @BioniqBob  Hi, I was just interested whether US negativity around EVs was coming primarily from safety concerns or just fear of change or some kind of anti-China feelings. We have these in Scotland too, but my guess is much less than US. I'd say most Scots are generally positive toward the idea of EVs and the benefits they'll bring, even if there are a few details they still need convincing of. Also we don't have an auto industry to speak of, so we neither have vested interests nor a powerful lobby resisting change. For me, US really needs to embrace what is the obvious EV future, whatever you think of Elon Musk, the US should be thanking him for what Tesla is doing, not vilifying him. Without Tesla, the US would be hopelessly adrift in a gas sea, as I reckon Japan is. Scotland once made much of the world's shipping, now we have almost none. Nations can and do lose massive manufacturing capability, it's far from impossible.
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  298.  @TomTom-dy6qr  My experience is different, the unions I was a member of normally acted with reason and sense. Give me an example of unions "looking after themselves" - what does that even mean - their own officials? When you ask when they voluntarily offer to take a wage cut, why would they do that when they are disagreeing with the management about wage cuts? Does that make sense to you? How often do we see companies reduce profits, dividends or executive packages as a method of cutting costs? Isn't the opposite rather the rule, while these people want to cut the wages of the poorest people in the company they are actually often receiving increases? Look, shop floor wages do not determine the profitability of a company. Good or bad management does.
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  299.  @TomTom-dy6qr  Do you genuinely believe cuts in workforce are because of unions? Really? Sorry, but that doesn’t hold water. Do you know what difference to the selling price of the average car a shop floor wage increase of say 10% vs 5% would make? I do.
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  300.  @TomTom-dy6qr  You make a mistake equating the effect unions can have vs management. That's not apples vs apples at all. All unions can normally do is push for a higher wage rise or, perhaps try to reduce redundancies, neither of which will determine whether the company succeeds or fails. In fact I'd argue it has little effect. Anyone that believes VW, Ford, Nissan etc are in the dire straits they're currently in is coz of shop floor workers has no idea whatsoever what the situation actually is. The blame for that lies firmly and emphatically at the door of (mis)management.
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  301.  @dougm659  Good on them! Nothing wrong with a willing seller meeting a willing buyer. You do realise there's not many Teslas, eh? I worked for companies that would take the milk out their workforce's tea.
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  302. @RobAllan-e3t  In that case I'd tell all those Americans "yearning" for a Brit Trump, we've been there already, in fact we had 2, Bojo and Truss. They wrecked our economy and impoverished our people. Maybe the Donald should've noted.
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  303.  @HonestJohn-y3k  Just looked at the latest ipsos poll on this subject. They have Trump on 57% unfavourable opinion vs 25% favourable in UK, however, where I’m from in Scotland, that changes to 71% and 18% respectively. Doesn’t surprise me, in spite of the efforts of Murdoch and his creepy cronies, Scots don’t do far right.
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  304. The strikes were a feature of the funeral service of the UK car industry. Not it's cause of death. That happened over many years before. It was called bad management. UK shipbuilding went via the same process.
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  305.  @butterflygirl2285 His contract would’ve had that written in.
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  306. The $bns that used to be spent by the auto industry on ICE R&D has now been directed toward BE. Add to that the $bns spent by battery companies aiming for a share of the booming BEV market and you have a tsunami of money and resources being spent on battery research worldwide. I expect we’ll see BEVs that will exceed the refuelling experience of ICE vehicles before too long.
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  307. I disagree. I'm old enough to remember seeing my first Japanese car arrive where I lived in Scotland and at that time the word "Japanese" conjured up negative feelings of poor quality and a "Mickey Mouse" attitude to Japanese quality and manufacturing. That was the late 60s with Japan generally still suffering from a WW2 hangover and it was generally perceived poorly. That soon changed when their cars, and motorbikes, outperformed, outpriced and outlasted ours. I think people realise China is no Mickey Mouse economy.
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  308.  @oscarholman  Again I find myself in disagreement. Most people aren’t wealthy and a car is usually their second most expensive purchase, assuming they own a house. Expecting such people, including me, incidentally, to put political principle before their wallets is a big ask, and that’s assuming they share your views on China. Indeed, I expect many might not even be aware their MG or whatever comes from China, or care. If the Chinese are going to repeat the Japanese experience of the 70s, offering better products at better prices, my guess is they’ll get the same results. Let’s face it, we’re probably all using and buying things made in China all the time already.
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  309.  @kamsunleong6648  I’d be interested to know what the average Thai person thinks of China, and whether that perception would influence buying decisions.
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  310. Excess because China is eating their lunch. Poor leadership, they only had 15 years to see it coming. Pity the poor workforce has to suffer for their incompetence, eh?
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  311.  @ronfarnsworth7074  I agree. Germans are a very clever, capable and industrious people and will overcome any obstacles and challenges. Abruptly stopping the flow of relatively cheap Russian gas has thrown them into the energy deep end, and ending nuke power added to that challenge. However, when they come out the other end they’ll be better set up for the future than others still using expensive nuke power or dirty fossil fuels. The sources for renewable energy will always be local, free and green. Whether you want to hug trees or not, it just makes utter economic sense.
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  312.  @marianbiznesu1899  Again nope. The first step to failure is to appoint an incompetent leadership. There are plenty of unionised companies doing well.
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  313.  @marianbiznesu1899  “Seek and ye shall find”. You are determined to blame the guy on the machine. Sorry, it’s not his or her fault.
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  314.  @marianbiznesu1899  Companies with good labour relations will outperform those without. No guesses required.
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  315.  @tsamuel6224  Have a look online at the costs associated with Hinkley Point C nuke power station. Not just build costs, that have ballooned like crazy, but also public sector (taxpayer) subsidies to guarantee revenues to (ironically) a French and Chinese state owned partnership for decades. Price guarantees that will ensure higher domestic bills than would be expected with renewables and for far longer. Politics, graft or utter incompetence, maybe all 3. Who knows.
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  316. Sure. Not extremely poor legacy auto industry leadership. Definitely not that. The people on the shop floor are entirely to blame - they maliciously and illogically distracted their poor managements into ignoring the threat from China for 15 years. They made them commit fraud on a biblical scale through Dieselgate, that definitely wasn't the fault of management. Wrong at a different level.
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  317. Add this to Dieselgate, failure to see the threat from China emerge and then tell me the cause of VWs problems is the unions.
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  318.  @Paul-H-Wolfram6608  I see people commenting about possible Chinese retaliation to auto tariffs against them. Why would they need to. The US and Japan are busy shooting themselves in the foot. Why would the Chinese feel the need to provide more bullets?
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  319. Great updates, but how about a focus on Chinese production of non fossil LDVs, HDVs, off road vehicles and buses etc.
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  320.  @jebes909090  If so then the Chinese are giving away money for nothing. His figures are freely available on CGTN.
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  321.  @tech-utuber2219  I'm assuming this wasn't meant for me?
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  322.  @tivvy-xf4kz I read recently that there has never been a better time to buy a good second hand EV than now.
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  323.  @ZweiZwolf  I’m not sure where you’re located, but as an example, the average car journey in USA is just over 12 miles and there are already around 200,000 public chargers with 1000 being added every week. As new EV models are released, which happens constantly, range increases and recharge time decreases.
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  324.  @ZweiZwolf  Sorry to fact check you, but according to the Joint Office of Energy and Transportation there are approximately 73,500 charging stations in US and around 200,000 chargers (chargepoints). This is (already) roughly half the number of retail gas stations even though the EV population is still far lower. And according to the AAA Americans on average make roughly 2.5 trips per day, driving around 30 miles. Making an EV the perfect choice.
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  325. I'm the same. My guess is that many politically right wing people somehow equate EVs and the whole green energy drive with "socialism". Either that or they're just scared of change.
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  326. I disagree with your explanation of why Western big auto is in this mess. Yes, they have been asleep at the wheel and yes, China has been the smart to their dumb, but in the past, big Western auto, energy and oil & gas could manipulate the global economy to suit themselves. China is ignoring the old rules and is big enough for that to matter.
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  327. I keep hearing about how AI is going to change/improve the development of industrial processes, but I’d like to understand more about that. I don’t doubt it will, but just how big a deal will this be?
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  328.  @pin65371  OK, few comments on your response. Firstly, I checked and most sources put the life span of nuke sites at far less than 80 years. Far closer to the 20 years you mention. Secondly, do your calculations include costs for decommissioning and storage? Lastly, a recent report from Australia put nuke costs at roughly 6x renewables and in UK it’s still building a nuke station Hinckley C that’s costs can only be described as utterly ruinous. While costs for renewables are undeniably coming down continually and significantly.
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  329.  @pin65371  A lot of people are meant to last 70-80 years too. But they don’t either. Why don’t you do a bit of research and tell us how long the average nuke station actually lasts?
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  330.  @jonevansauthor  Do you really believe it’s optimism to think the Tories are unfit to run a whelk stall and pretty much anyone, including the management of my local bowling club could do better? Have you been in a coma for the last decade? The names Bojo, Truss etc mean anything to you? I don’t have much faith in Labour either, but c’mon, the present Keystone Kops shower of corrupt, useless, Tory numpties is hardly a high bar, is it?
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  331.  @jonevansauthor  “Eternal optimist” - to think bettering the current Tory government isn’t possible. It’s not exactly a high bar, is it?
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  332.  @pr7049  Define “extortion”? I’m thinking, I’m Russia, you’re energy starved Europe - I have a lot of gas, would you like to buy some….. As for PRC, yeah, having the cheek to take them on at their own game - and beating them.
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  333. I wonder what that difference equates to in respect of the end cost? I don't know how much of a cost component labour represents, but surely it can't be that big? Seems crazy to think a huge amount of industry could leave USA for what might be a fairly modest saving? You'd think the way forward for industry would be robotisation that would presumably turn the tide back toward more "advanced" economies?
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  334. “Help China become the world superpower” or….. after decades where China has allowed the West to flood its market with petrol and diesel cars allow it the chance to sell some back to us? Globalism was wonderful - as long as there was no competition from China, suddenly it’s no longer a good idea. Wonder why….
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  335.  @randygraham926  For standing by and watching China come and eat their lunch!
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  336. Hi, but what about battery swap for HDVs?
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  337.  @danielstapler4315  Yes, I tend to agree. I did say HDV rather than HGV coz I reckon there are environments (esp off-road) where double and triple shifting is needed as well as high power demands, but yes, in general I agree with you.
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  338. China is routinely called an “enemy” by US politicians and widely on mainstream news and social media. Does anyone wonder how ordinary people in ordinary towns in US arrive at these ideas? China is an enemy - to US capitalists, who have enjoyed global US economic and military dominance. Until now that is. Globalisation was fine - as long as US was the global hegemon.
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  339. China brought MG back from the dead and it’s now selling good cars in huge numbers, India did the same with Royal Enfield. I expect a few years after the Chinese bought Alfa, we’d be seeing them turn sales around.
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  340.  @Withnail1969  You could have just said you haven’t a clue. More polite.
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  341. That was created by....?
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  342. They said the same about Japanese cars, before they came to US and Europe and ate their lunch. The difference with the Japanese is - they left them some lunch, the Chinese could take the lot, if they don’t start shaping up.
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  343.  @Clovis321  I’m sorry but I don’t understand Portuguese and can’t translate this comment.
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  344.  @Clovis321  Thanks for the effort. You make great points and I basically agree with pretty much all you say. In fact I’d say we are both of a view that we are seeing the start of a huge disruption that will affect more than the auto industry. It will also affect the associated auto industry supply chain and related industries like energy, oil and gas etc. In fact, I don’t know if you’ll agree but I believe even the personal transport environment will radically change with the coming of robotaxis. I don’t know if Western and Japanese auto companies will even have enough time to transform to the new EV age before robotaxis reduces the car market to a fraction of its preset size. They might find themselves fighting over a much smaller lunch. That’s what prompted my “China will not even leave them a snack” comment. It’s not that China will deliberately ruin them, it’s more that they could simply be a position where they have lost so much ground they won’t be able to come back to anything like the present situation. What’s happening isn’t just business events, it’s global scale economic and societal change.
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  345. Given it’s very clear it’s extremely poor management to blame for the precarious position Ford and VW are in, perhaps the unions would’ve made a better job of running both companies. Would the unions also have stood by and watched the Chinese develop into their worst nightmare over the last 15 (at least) years? Let’s face it, it’s probably impossible they could’ve done any worse.
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  346.  @jay90374  That's right, it's not. The biggest threat to legacy auto isn't the climate emergency they've helped create, it's the Chinese. Who've been building up to this position, in plain sight, for 15-20 years. If the incompetent, greedy, short sighted leadership in legacy auto had even made a decent attempt to justify their exorbitant packages, the poor sods on the shop floors might not be facing losing their livelihoods.
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  347.  @jay90374  Yes, that's right, totally not. VW and other legacy makers watched for long years as China rose, in plain sight, to become their nemesis. You are 100% correct.
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  348.  @jay90374  Yup, 100% correct. Democracy, eh?
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  349.  @fractalelf7760 Yeah, those communist fascists…..
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  350. Yes, correct, although let me add a thought or two. Firstly, it wasn’t just build quality and design that was tested and proved wanting, it was the working environment too. What I mean is, while the indigenous UK car industry got wiped out, UK continued to produce cars and indeed vehicles are today the biggest manufactured export from UK. But - they make cars for other people. I remember some time after the Japanese invasion and Nissan started building cars competitively in England’s north east, one commenter asked the question - “UK manager and UK workforce equals failure, Japanese manager and UK workforce equals success - why?”
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  351. And who's fault is it they're faced with losing their jobs?
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  352. Yes, atrocious management featured in both.
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  353.  @kaya051285  There are no cheaper models presently.
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  354. There must be a bottom line price where it’s simply impossible to physically produce solar panels (even with robots, mass production, AI etc) and make enough profit for it to be viable. Has anyone predicted this?
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  355.  @FabioCapela  Thanks. The writing does seem to be on the wall (or should I say roof ;) )around renewable energy, especially solar.
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  356. Or…. Europe floods China with cars for decades, making enormous profits doing so, and then manufactures some BS case to stop the Chinese having the temerity to try to sell some back to Europe. The EU is panicking and drawing the drawbridge up against better, cheaper Chinese cars because they’ve been asleep at the wheel and are now far behind China. I reckon if I was China, I’d be angry too - and I’d want to do something about it.
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  357. Certainly the existential damage has already been done. By whom, though? Not IG.
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  358. Making cars that no one wanted was, I'm sure you'll agree, the actual reason they went out of business (no sales, no business). How the business actually ended therefore was relatively unimportant, since the fatal blow had already happened. So who was to blame for that terrible strategy?
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  359. Assuming they have the time. Not sure that’s the case. China is busy mowing their grass.
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  360.  @RogerSutton-ik9fj  I reckon it’s very unfair, and incorrect, to call Chinese EVs coal fired. China is installing more renewable energy capacity annually than the rest of the world put together. They’re steadily reducing their fossil fuel energy mix component, not just to keep their people healthier and for the environment, but also because it makes complete political and economic sense for them to do so. Try to be a little more objective.
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  361.  @benmlee  Here’s part of their strategy statement - “we need a comprehensive plan that takes the present market realities into consideration, as well as the on-going investment and innovation in internal combustion engine technologies”. Sounds like an organisation still very wedded to ICE to me.
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  362.  @JDMSwervo2001  You don’t have the power to buy cheaper EVs from abroad. Your government made sure of that.
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  363.  @rossdunn2317  Absolutely. However I personally doubt there will be a long term for hybrids. They’re an unnecessary and frankly stupid idea.
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  364. Why do you assume shop floor wages to be the critical cost element in car manufacture? How much would VW save moving to Romania? I'm assuming you know since you believe it to be "a fortune". How much is a fortune?
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  365.  @wolfgangpreier9160  If your lithium calculation is based on ultimately replacing all ICE vehicles with EVs, then I’d disagree with that amount. I’ve bought into the robotaxi theory where we effectively see the end of personally owned transport. Of course if sodium can compete successfully with lithium then all bets in that regard would be off.
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  366.  @wolfgangpreier9160  Yes, i take your point re other uses, however, I’d be interested to know if you also take mine about robotaxis. If personal ownership is indeed basically replaced with robotaxis, my guess would be a reduction in vehicle populations of anything up to 70-80%. On sodium, if it can compete toe to toe with lithium, why lithium at all? Thanks
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  367.  @wolfgangpreier9160  I wouldn’t envisage a robotaxi monopoly, there are already several players and I’d guess there will be many more. I’m not sure I’d agree there will be a significantly smaller demand for them in Europe c/w US. Car ownership in US is certainly higher than Europe, but it’s still very high in many European countries.
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  368.  @wolfgangpreier9160  The robotaxi “industry” isn’t even an industry yet, it’s in its early infancy, so I wouldn’t guess where it’ll be in time. Are you referring to the actual (driverless) vehicles, rather than the service? If so then I suppose it’s possible Tesla might be able to dominate that market with their cybercab, but only for a while. I suspect they wouldn’t be allowed that for long. As soon as that takes off other producers would quickly jump in, assuming they’re not already planning to do so. In any case, if Tesla, or any other company, manages a temporary monopoly as a reward for being quickest, I wouldn’t be too worried about that. To be frank, I’m not sure why you are?
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  369. @ OK, I’m not as well informed on this subject as you apparently are. I can’t say I see an insurmountable problem though. If it works and if Tesla starts reaping huge rewards (for which they’d be entitled) then my experience tells me someone else will sooner or later join the party, that’s how business works. The Chinese won’t be caught napping for too long I expect. Like nature, business hates a vacuum. Thanks.
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  370. How will the west ever compete with China for EVs? How will they stop China swamping their markets with cheap, good EVs that western markets won’t be able to produce at the prices? Quotas and tariffs?
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  371. I suppose they should have tried good leadership before they got to that point, eh?
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  372.  @juliahello6673  You dont perhaps think it’s the workforce trying to survive atrocious management? What part did the unions have in Dieselgate?
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  373. The arrangement Sam is so mystified about isn’t that difficult to understand. Firstly, it’s not an agreement that “no one can be fired” as he puts it, it’s rather that the jobs concerned will be guaranteed to exist - for a period of time. So if an individual is not performing I’m sure they can be sacked, it’s the job that won’t end - during the guarantee period. Shop floor people only have their labour to sell, so why wouldn’t they try to sell it to those offering the best terms? What’s wrong with looking for as much job security as they can find? Is it difficult to understand that a company like Merc would (should) feel reasonably safe guaranteeing a number of jobs until 2029? And if Merc find themselves regretting that decision, who’s fault is that, the management’s that offered it, or the shop floor that accepted it? Sam showing his right-wing, anti-union colours again I reckon.
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  374. If it's so logical, why aren't people lining up to print money? I don't get it.
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  375.  @AdrianHilder  Actually the majority of our renewable power comes from wind, both onshore and offshore. While I would agree that England has far more limitations in installing renewables than Scotland, Wales and N Ireland, I nonetheless think they could and should be installing far more solar and wind there than they are, rather than relying so much on highly expensive nuclear. In fact the building of onshore wind in England in particular is minimal.
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  376.  @eddiegill  China is the world’s 3rd largest importer of cars with imports around $54bn pa. Have a look at how much the Chinese market means to many Euro car makers (and has done for decades).
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  377.  @eddiegill  In 2022 VW sold over 3 million cars to China, around the same as to the rest of Europe combined.
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  378.  @eddiegill  Yeah, so we can agree presumably that for the Euro auto industry, China is, and they must hope will remain for a very long while, an extremely important and lucrative export market. Now, can we review this in the light of your original comment.
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  379.  @eddiegill  According to the Chinese Passenger Car Assc, 2023 imports were “slightly cooler” than domestic sales and c/w previous years with luxury brand imports actually increasing. Hardly a “disaster” and if those numbers are going the wrong way for Europe, who’s fault is that? Europe has been sound asleep at the wheel for at least 20 years while China has been powering ahead with EVs. This hasn’t been any kind of secret, it’s been as obvious as dog’s balls. The Europeans, like the Americans, have just been too stupid and stuck in a rut to see it.
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  380. Good comment, but I'd say if Germany reaches the point where that is a major problem for Tesla, then Germany itself would be in a world of pain. General Winter has always commanded Russia's "extra army", I suspect he'll be getting ready for action soon.
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  381.  @X5493-c7p  Well, I suppose they could be forgiven a bit for not predicting a European war they would inadvertently get heavily affected by.
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  382. Hydro power doesn’t need battery storage, because it’s already base load. Using pumped hydro increases its base load capacity. Incidentally, there’s only one lake in Scotland.
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  383.  @johnfrancis4401  If Loch Ness was a lake, it would be called Lake Ness. As for your explanation of how pumped storage works, thanks, however I’m well aware already. In fact I live near a couple of Scottish lochs already doing that. We’ve been doing it for some time. I reiterate however, you don’t need battery storage for hydro energy, it’s not intermittent.
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  384.  @johnfrancis4401  Like your spelling you mean? Firstly, there is already a pumped storage scheme operating out of LocH LomOnd. Secondly, there are freshwater and sea lochs. I’m very aware of how pumped storage works. I worked in Scotland’s energy industry for decades. You need to study much more and comment less.
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  385.  @johnfrancis4401  I never commented on the efficacy of pumped storage, I stated you don’t need battery storage for it. As it happens I believe there is value in pumped storage, especially by way of providing a mix of renewable energy sources and especially useful as a base load source (that you don’t need battery storage for).
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  386.  @deathpunch3917  Given most car journeys in China are apparently small and should be covered by the battery element of PHEVs, is it more important to consider what their *next* car will be? My guess is that as soon as it’s realised that people simply don’t need the ICE, the current popularity of PHEVs will fizzle out.
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  387.  @ajmann1187  I don’t agree with your conclusions, but surely we need to face the fact that what we have now is why we are where we are now . That is - incinerating our planet. Doing nothing is not an option.
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  388. Yes, they have, and before the rise of China, they would probably be controlling the pace and direction of the EV revolution now too. Which would be behind what it is now. Chine has arrived as a global economic powerhouse and isn’t playing by the old Western rules. The Western auto makers seemingly haven’t cottoned on yet.
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  389.  @fallinloveatfirstdream4222  You seem to be forgetting Japan. In fact out of the 3 I’d put Europe ahead of US and Japan re EV preparedness, albeit not by much.
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  390. Correction - VW - “We need to close plants because we’ve spectacularly failed to do our jobs we were well paid to do and now you poor people face an uncertain future”. IG - “Thanks for nothing, you useless fools”.
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  391.  @someuser7501  The union’s job is to look after the welfare of their members. The management’s job is to make the company successful. You can put the blame for VWs sorry plight wherever you like, but I know where mine is going.
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  392. A VW bailout by the German Govt - after the EU imposes punitive tariffs on Chinese EVs - because of state subsidies, would be very interesting.
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  393. I think Trump is doing that for them.
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  394.  @daddy9267  Tell them how good tariffs are, while they’re in their union of 27 countries that abolished tariffs. They also have many free trade agreements with many other places around the world. Hardly their fault if where you live likes tariffs.
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  395. How much would a 10% shop floor wage increase raise the selling price of the average car in the average auto company compared to a 5%? If the company decided to pay the extra 5% as above, what alternatives would it have to adding it to the selling price? I think I understand why they fight. To pay their rent and eat.
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  396. Is it amazing? Genuine question since I don't know how to compare the 2 vehicles apart from what I can see and read, but I'm assuming the Tesla is basically a "better" all round vehicle. ICE vehicles come in a price range, with some 3-4 times the price of others. Is it not logical to think EVs will be the same? Or are we going to see a much narrower pricing spectrum with EVs?
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  397.  @lengould9262  Yes, I think you're probably right, but all ICEs had those and there was still a wide spectrum?
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  398.  @paulmcgreevy3011  Hilarious
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  399. In UK many/most? commercial vehicles get sold off after 5 years or so, and given the rough environments they work in and the intense work schedules etc, they're often not worth that much second-hand. Therefore, given most such vehicles will be 2 or 3 years old I'm guessing it wouldn't be worth converting them, given we're talking of a drive train replacement. I'd imagine most operators will choose to just run their ICEs down and phase in EV sales incrementally?
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  400.  @4literv6 I take many of your points, but… firstly, it would be dangerous to regard jobs as only those directly employed by auto makers, how many jobs and businesses are involved in the huge auto supply chain? Secondly, the legacy supply chain is already looking at a difficult future in any case given there will quite simply be fewer of them needed as EV sales increase. The average EV has around 50% of the number of components an ICE has, with an EV battery only having around 1% of the list of components an engine has. All told, around 70% of the much smaller list of components of an EV are different to an ICE. What does this mean? For me, it’s difficult to foresee anything other than a radical decline in the number of supply chain companies, and jobs, as EV sales increase, with fewer suppliers supplying bigger quantities of often different components. The US auto industry, as currently constituted, is in danger regardless of government actions.
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  401. No, bad management will kill a company far better than any shop floor ever could. Remember when the Japanese took over from Brit managers in Sunderland and started making cars profitably and efficiently? UK management and UK workforce = failure. Japanese management and UK workforce = success. What does that tell you?
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  402. My guess is many people in UK will think this is a British car.
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  403. I’m no fan of Trump or even right wing politics, but I can offer a couple of suggestions. US should avoid “forever wars”. US should take a more aggressive attitude to drug consumption, especially fentanyl. US needs to lower the price of pharmaceuticals. US needs to reshore at least some industries.
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  404.  @ianemery7785  Even if all you said was true, and you’re speculating about some of it - so what? There’s still huge numbers of EVs being sold. Let’s see what happens next year before you write off 2024 as some kind of fluke. My guess is that the EV numbers will increase but probably not to 28%.
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  405. @GruffSillyGoat I said 1 in 4 in December, I’m aware it was 1 in 5 for the year. But thanks for polite comment.
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  406.  @ianemery7785  How many are on forecourts, dealers are reluctant to stock, the reasons for their being bought and the reasons why you believe people aren’t buying them. All fair opinions, but just opinion.
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  407.  @ianemery7785  They’ll have the choice to buy a new ICE until 2030, and after that they can buy a second hand one until there’s none left. Which, given I believe the average car in UK lasts for around 12 years, will be until around 2042. Albeit by that time ICE will be a memory.
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  408.  @ianemery7785  Most of it is your opinions on what’s happening in the UK car market and why. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it’s just your opinions. How do you know why people are or aren’t buying them, how do you know whether dealers are reluctant to stock or not and if so why? Yes, dealers bought far more than individuals, but those cars will end up on the second hand market and will be bought privately, so what’s more important, how the transformation happens or that it happens?
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  409. @ You also just gave me your opinions again. You say “the motor trade has no confidence in EVs”. That’s not a fact, it’s an opinion. The SMMT has for instance formed a group to “support the UKs EV industry”. That sounds a bit more positive, does it not? Sometimes governments have to mandate societal and economic change. This is one of them. In my opinion it’s a very good decision as I foresee EVs getting continually better and cheaper. On the other hand I see ICE not getting better in any significant way, nor cheaper, and not cleaner given I reckon the ICE is now about as clean as it’ll get.
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  410.  @ianemery7785  Your 1st is yet another opinion. You’re basically saying “trust me, bro”. 2nd, the UK car industry has EV goals, like almost all sensible car manufacturers, maybe you should ask the SMMT that represents the car industry rather than your mates? Lastly, yes, my opinion about the EV mandate is indeed my opinion, which is why I called it that. I call opinions opinions and facts facts. Opinion - “the motor trade has no confidence in EVs”. Fact - “the SMMT has a group supporting the UK EV car industry”.
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  411.  @scottmcshannon6821  I can see your logic, but I just think the attraction of always being able to have the latest model of battery will overcome the difficulties. Batteries are going the same way PCs go, there’s a better one out every few months. Plus being able to recharge in a couple of minutes will appeal to many. It’s true cooperation between manufacturers will be very difficult though.
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  412.  @4literv6  Yes, as I say I can see logic in the Tesla/others strategy. I'm not black/white on the issue. But, what about resale value? What if you keep your (expensive) EV, say, 5 years and by that time the battery is considered a bit of a joke? To some extent an EV is the battery and it's clear battery tech is in some kind of Moore's Law cycle already. With $bns now being pumped into battery R&D that will only continue.
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  413.  @4literv6  There's more than NIO and BYD coming out of China, there's X Peng. Li, MG and many others. In fact I believe Chinese EV makers are now in triple figures. Tesla is the world leader, but otherwise is the American exception that proves the Chinese rule.
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  414. China?
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  415.  @mikemars5984 So if we were seeing lots of kangaroos hopping around the fields, you’d say, yes, but there’s also lots of cows, so nothing to report?
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  416.  @mikemars5984  Yes, I reckon i see the issues, although i seriously doubt you do. Are you a climate change denier? Coz you’d have to be to oppose green energy. The UK govt is currently being loudly criticised - for not subsidising EVs enough, especially by the auto industry. It’s just reduced the subsidies EVs had via road tax. In fact the UKG is being accused of wanting to Green UKs transport on the cheap. Do you think oil and gas haven’t received subsidies, do you imagine the nuclear industry would have ever emerged without the state subsidies it received, and still receives? What baffles me is why there are still people desperate to cling on to filthy, expensive, dangerous fossil fuels. Why on earth *not* move to an energy that’s sources will be forever free, forever available, forever local and forever green?
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  417. Why are people buying PHEVs? It’s not because they have any love of ICEs, in fact my guess is most PHEV buyers would rather not have an ICE as one of two drive trains in their vehicle - if they felt they didn’t need one. Why do they feel they need one? Range anxiety and charging network anxiety. Solve those two issues and PHEVs disappear. Range keeps going up, charging networks keep expanding. For me, PHEV will be remembered as an odd stepping stone tech in an inevitable path to an EV future. They will be star attractions in transport museums.
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  418.  @tobycolin6271 That doesn’t seem clear at all to me. Nor does it take into account governments EV sales policies in many countries. Care to explain why your numbers are clear to you?
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  419. How much does a 10% shop floor pay rise add to the selling price of a car, assuming the company doesn't rather absorb it from other costs? Rough estimate fine... I'm assuming you know since you're so confident it's enough to bankrupt the company.
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  420.  @mathysdupreez602 While I would agree the Chinese are not some kind of tree-hugging altruists, your comment isn’t warranted. Their contribution to accelerating the uptake of renewable energy can’t be denied. You’re right to say they’re a huge CO2 emitter, but they’ve had to do that to industrialise their country - to get to where we in the developed world already are - having used the same route. Who are we to tell them they have no right to do that? At the same time though, they’ve also been revolutionising the global energy and transport industries in a way the West wouldn’t have. And they have a very good reason to want to turn green - because it suits China. They are way short of the fossil fuels they need, the procuring of which leaves them vulnerable and out of pocket, so why wouldn’t they want to end their use? Overall, China deserves credit more than criticism. If they weren’t around, the world wouldn’t be as green as it is, or planned to be in current timescales.
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  421.  @steveinoz8188  Only if the Pope is catholic.
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  422. I think we’ll see a few H2 HGVs and HDVs - before advances in battery tech remove the present (tenuous) refuelling and range advantages they have over their EV counterparts. In the longer term - I can’t see any significant future for H2 in on or off road transport. As for shipping, air and rail, I’m undecided about that.
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  423.  @whowhy9023  Yes, I know about the Tesla semi, but I also know of Tesla’s limitations in production capacity of it vs the need for zero emission trucking over the near future. I’m not going to defend H2 trucks, I wouldn’t buy them if I were a trucking company, but I’m sure some will.
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  424.  @markjonz  Indeed, we truly are living in a period of immense change. If we were to believe Tony Seba et al, energy from wind and solar, combined with battery storage will produce an era of energy "superabundance", which will pull us all out the hole. However - I'll reserve my judgement on that for now. Incidentally, I reckon we'll see blue H2 at least for a while. You're right about Germany though, they are facing huge energy challenges primarily due to the Ukraine situation.
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  425. The Tory party in UK would sell their grannies if there was a few £s in it. National interest, principle, humanity and economic strategy come a distant second to, trousering as much cash as possible, helping out their mates and donors and keeping the poor poor for that shower of charlatans. We're only just keeping them at bay away from our Nation Health System, which they and American "partners" have been stalking for years now, like hyenas around a kill. Left to them, we'd have a credit card care system like USA. No thanks.
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  426. ​@nicholaspostlethwaite9554 you didn't answer the question.
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  427.  @nicholaspostlethwaite9554  “just wander off”. You have no idea, do you?
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  428. Sure, just watch that share price rocket... Strikes gonna do that.
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  429. @A M I won’t. I have a petrol car that I intend to run until I buy an EV. Given the incredible ongoing advances in battery tech we’re seeing, by that time recharge times will be much reduced c/w what they are now. I also expect to charge at home, so I reckon spending much time doing that is highly unlikely. Am I fairly typical? I think so.
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  430.  @solexxx8588  Yes, although it uses it’s China production to a large degree for exports.
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  431.  @rogerfroud300  You're not blaming poor management at all? Couldn't it be argued that it's not the shop floor that makes or breaks a company, but rather good or bad management?
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  432. How much do you reckon the selling price of a car is made up of shop floor wages?
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  433. What part did the unions play in Dieselgate and what part did they play in standing by watching and ignoring the threat from China grow over the last 15 years? Try blaming atrocious management instead of the poor schmucks on the shop floor just trying to scrape a living. Unions protect the livelihoods of the people that actually make the things. Management protect bonuses and dividends.
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  434.  @jay90374  Yeah? And your Victorian view of unions is what - enlightened? The shop floor does not make or break a company, good or bad management does. In this case, really bad.
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  435.  @centralkingdom8141 Not China’s fault if the West impose punitive tariffs.
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  436.  @petersimms4982  Yup. Trump and Musk sharing tech opinions? Wouldn’t have given that much cred until lately.
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  437. The way the Tories are running UK, we’ll soon be able to compete against China for low cost manufacture, since we’ll be poorer than them. It’s a cunning plan.
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  438. They shouldn’t wonder why. It’s painfully obvious they’re going to lose their jobs due to very bad management. Poor people.
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  439.  @valenrn8657  And a management that would listen to such a union. Because without that, all the union can do is threaten to strike. How many companies would you reckon have such a management? My guess, very few.
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  440.  @valenrn8657  When you default to cutting costs by reducing shop floor wages, it’s gonna be that. China makes cars far cheaper, and it’s not coz wages are cheaper alone, it’s a host of better metrics.
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  441. Hear, hear..!!!!! Right wing media blame the poorest workers for the failings of the richest. It’s an old song.
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  442. Do you have a subscription to The Telegraph, or just buy it day to day?
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  443.  @pbrigham  not difficult...
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  444. I know, it beggars belief, eh? And you can bet your bottom dollar every one of these insanely overpaid numpties tried to screw their shop floor workers for every cent. Capitalism - for the few, not the many.
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  445. @ Ah, bargain then….
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  446. There’s no reason to believe the rise in EV sales in China, or elsewhere, will be incremental. ICE sales will probably crater at some point when people look around and notice they’re the only one in the room still in the ICE age. Think of those bulky TVs before flat screen, they were there one day, gone the next….
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  447. What were considered massive assets in the past (legacy auto production infrastructure) are fast becoming liabilities. Tesla are the American exception proving the Chinese rule - the future is electric.
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  448.  @jimpackard8059  At the moment. The first cars had to have a guy walk in front with a red flag. The billions (and more) that used to be spent on ICE R&D is now being spent on battery tech. Will you still be saying too heavy in 5 years? 3 years?
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  449. This isn’t about politics. But it has to be said, regardless what you think of China, they’ve become the leading global nation for EVs. Tesla is the American exception that proves the Chinese rule. The legacy US auto industry has been asleep at the wheel and they’ll pay the price. Why have they been asleep? - lack of vision and concentration on making current profits rather than investing in the future. The only way the US will stop China outperforming them economically is to invent a war.
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  450.  @joelarrarte8486  You haven't made any sensible contribution, just a dumb insult. I'm not seeing any evidence of your brain so far. Care to try with reasoned argument instead?
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  451. Will you be telling us the one fact about unions? Coz the rest of your comment is total opinion, and as far as i can see, utterly biased, uninformed, wrong opinion.
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  452.  @toyotaprius79 I would agree that until recently, big US companies could, and did, shape US and therefore global economic direction through political influence. But I believe the emergence of China, that is not interested in playing that game by those rules, has torpedoed that cozy arrangement. The times, they are a’changin….
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  453. Shop floor workers paying the price for corporate greed and incompetence again….. When the subject of “problem” costs are raised, why is only one cost element mentioned? What about the other ones? Sam - when will we hear you talk to us about the “problem” of sky high management packages, sky high dividends, sky high bonuses? What about management failure putting the company in this situation in the first place? Blame the victim much? Why aren’t other costs problems? Have you considered your anti-union bias is rendering your content compromised?
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  454.  @deepseer  OK, fair enough.
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  455.  @TheBooban  Yes and no. As I said, the Americans need the Chinese market more than the Chinese need the American, but between the European, Japanese and US markets, that’s a huge prize. The rest of the markets are far smaller.
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  456.  @ohyesitsme  I think it had everything to do with that! Yeah, blame the poor sod on the production line though. Easy target.
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  457. I don’t think it’s pedantic to mention that when Sam says “power demand” he actually means electricity demand Power to me includes fossil fuel driven transport and thermal industry demands (cement etc), which I’m assuming are still powered (either fully or partly) by fossil fuels. I’m fairly ignorant of California, so can anyone enlighten me as to how houses are cooled/heated, via electricity or fossil fuel or a mixture?
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  458.  @antonroux6737 Yes, that can be a problem. But so is the problem of “professional journalists” being capable of just as much bias as the amateurs. Just presented better.
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  459.  @antonroux6737  I believe for every John Pilger there are probably 99 Rupert Murdoch type hacks. In UK where I live the majority of newspapers feature “journalism” that I’d call highly biased. Journalists are normally not independent, they’re paid a salary by people with agendas.
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  460.  @dharley189  Good afternoon. With respect, perhaps it’s because I’m in Europe, I see it from a different perspective. As I say, even if I wasn’t a fan, or even hated them, I’d still be convinced of their inevitability. I’m around your age and I may not see the day when ICE cars (and other ICE vehicles) are collectors items, but it won’t be long after. My kids certainly will. You mention China, as well you should, since whatever you think of them, it’s undeniable they’ve been planning to dominate the auto world with EVs for the last 20-30 years. Tesla aside, China is miles ahead in that race with BYD as their front runner among many EV makers. As for price and availability for the working person, there are already decent Chinese EVs selling (in China) for low prices $10-$15k, so I don’t think we’ll have long for those to be hitting showrooms in Europe and US. Try as the West will, I doubt we’ll be able to hold back that tide. As Bob said - the times, they are a changin’…. Anyway, nice talking. I expect your weather is far better than mine. Cold, wet and stormy here in Argyll, Scotland.
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