Comments by "Solo Renegade" (@SoloRenegade) on "Dark Skies"
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Best plane to never fight? HA!!! Never wise to make such bold statements, especially regarding dubious aircraft choices.
Ta-152, DeHavilland Hornet, XF-107, F8U-3 Crusader II, YF-23, F-16XL, F-20, Avro Arrow, YF-12, and countless others deserve that title FAR more.
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@senseofthecommonman Had the Typhoon not existed, other aircraft would have been mass produced even more so than the troublesome and maintenance intensive Typhoon, that would have destroyed those trains and such instead. Therefore, no meaningful difference would have occurred. The Typhoon did a job, that other planes could also have done had the Typhoon not been an option. All the manufacturing and maintenance resources for the Typhoons would have gone into other airframes doing that same job.
And being a combat vet who has received air support from many types (A-10, F-18, AV-8B, B-1, AH-64, OH-58, AH-1, AC-130, MQ-1...). I don't care which aircraft puts ordnance on target, just so long as someone does it. I don't get personally attached to the aircraft, only the results.
The Typhoons consumed a lot of resources in terms of material, engineering, maintenance, time, etc, that could have gone into less troublesome airframes.
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@Zankaroo the pilots did fail, as they also failed with the P-38 initially.
But yes, the ultimate failure was that of the gov/military officials.
But just like the P-38, P-51, F4U, Spitfire, and others, once teh bugs got worked out it turned into a capable plane that could fight a Zero and win. Pilots wanted to turn fight and be aggressive, and they had to be taught to be more patient and use boom and zoom and wingman tactics to win (true for all of the best US fighters including the P-51, F4U, P-47, etc.). The age of pure maneuvering to win dogfights died in the 1930s, and the new pilots had to be taught that.
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@kirkmorrison6131 the P-39, P-40, P-38, and all other US and Western fighters in WW2 were designed as Boom and Zoom fighters, where speed is more important than maneuverability. Japan didn't get the memo in the 1930s and continued to focus on Turn and Burn fighters, which was a mistake. Late in WW2 and into the Cold War interceptors and climb rate became critical in addition to speed.
This meant that the P-40, P-39, P-38 and more were faster than the Zero, Ki43... but less maneuverable, and comparable or worse climb rates. But the late war P-39Q and P-40N were very well matched to the Zero in all but range and maneuverability.
The P-39 and P-40 had as good or better service ceilings, better speed, tougher, self sealing fuel tanks, and relied upon diving attacks and wingman tactics. this proved to be the superior form of dogfighting, and the standard practice for ALL US fighter pilots. The average US pilot was also better trained, whereas the Japanese had a very small pilot pool, and put ALL of their top pilots in one single unit. The F4F was also well balanced against the Zero. And the Spitfire was basically equal to the Zero in every way except range.
Early dogfights in the Pacific, starting on Dec 7, 1941, and going into 1943, US pilots were initially caught off guard by surprise, and werent aware of the Zero prior to Pearl Harbor. After Dec 7 piltos wanted revenge and were too aggressive and wanted to turn fight. It took time to get them to stay disciplined and stick to Boom and Zoom that their airplanes were designed for. Boom and Zoom fighting requires much more patience and discipline, and even online gamers are overall terrible at Boom and Zoom becasue they are too eager and aggressive. But most of the top aces were Boom and Zoom pilots (Red Baron, Eric Hartmann, Richard Bong, Rickenbacker, and many others.). Pilots like Hans Marseille, Werner Voss, and Saburo Sakai were Turn and Burn pilots, using superior piloting to outmaneuver their opponents.
Something to keep in mid, while the P-39 and P-40 werent as good against Japanese planes in maneuverability, they could both outmaneuver a Bf109, and the P-40 was superior to the P-47 in every way below 15k ft other than range and firepower. The P-40 was faster, accelerated quicker, was more maneuverable, was equally as tough taking punishment and still flying home, used in ground attack roles, was an excellent diving airplane, etc. than the P-47.
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@apis_aculei F4F finished WW2 7:1 against the zero, and even the Zero pilots themselves respected the F4F in a dogfight in the early South Pacific campaigns.
Speed, firepower, and wingman tactics are superior to what the Zero brought to the table. Agility ceased being important the day the Hawker Hart entered service with the RAF. But Japan's Samurai mindset refused to accept this reality.
It's just like how in a dogfight between a P-40 and a P-47, the P-40 pilot can't lose. You could replace the P-40 with an F6F, and F4U, etc, and the P-47 would still lose. Because while the P-47 is the superior fighter at high altitude, it can't kill the other planes unless it comes down to their altitude. And at those lower altitudes the P-47 can't defeat any of those airplanes in an even fight. This played out for real in state-side bar bets, where pilots of different types and branches of the military would dogfight 1-vs-1 to settle bets. the P-47s always lost, because their opponent would just keep the dogfight at low altitude where their airplanes were faster and more maneuverable than the P-47.
What good is maneuverability if you can't catch your target? what good is maneuverability if you can't run away from your attacker? P-38s exemplified this. Zeros were at the mercy of US P-38s once the US pilots learned to stick with boom and zoom tactics. Speed controls the engagement in a dogfight, not maneuverability. And in real life combat, dogfighting is a team sport. And setting up your pilots to fight 1-vs-1 fights in a fight where your opponent is using team tactics, even if you brought the same number of airplanes to the fight as your opponent, is a guaranteed loss for you.
War isn't fair, and when you lose in combat you don't get to claim it wasn't fair. Either you use what you have and you win, or you die.
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@ricardobeltranmonribot3182 But the F8F, Sea Fury, P-51, P-38, etc. were/are used as racing planes. People claim the P-47 was faster and such. But if that were true they'd have used them as air racers. Fact is, the P-47 sucked terribly below 15k ft.
A-36 was considered superior to the P-47 as a ground attacker. Faster and more maneuverable down low too.
Also, Mustangs were sometimes equipped with 4x cannons which are better than 8x .50cal.
But you can't compare a late war P-47 model to early war Planes. You need to compare them to other late war models, like the Ta-152, Spiteful, MB5, etc. Since the P-47N made as much contribution to the war as the P-80. You have to compare what was available in the period in question, not hypothetical scenarios about what would have happened had Germany held on for a few years longer.
The P-47N was only used in the Pacific, and P-47s sucked in the pacific due to their inadequate low altitude performance. The Mustangs did the job faster, easier, cheaper, with less maintenance, and for much lower cost. And Mustangs also required less training and were more comfortable to pilots on long missions.
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