Comments by "justgivemethetruth" (@justgivemethetruth) on "TalkTV"
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@@TOM-TOM-TOM
Listen to Hitchens, and maybe Mearsheimers.
Putin said and lived up to respecting Ukraine as its own country.
The problem came about when the US took over the Ukrainian government and drove to EXCLUSIVELY to the West, also claiming that it would eventually be NATO.
When the US took over the Ukrainian government, and then used force when Yanukovych was elected over Yushenko, America's choice, and Yanukovych wanted to keep Ukraine neutral and trade with both Russia and the EU, the US started military aid to the Nationalists and Nazis, and the war began in Donbas.
Without the US there would have been no war.
BUT, then look at the ethnic makeup and language of Ukraine relative to the east-west split. There is a natural split there that should be two countries, but the US wanted to force Ukraine to stay together, so it began the war on the Russian ethnics.
Every which way you look at this if you really seek out facts, the US and NATO pushed this, and its been going on for 100 years the attacks and desire to destroy Russia.
To destroy both Russia and Ukraine ... what the hell kind of operations is that for the US to be involved it, and it is the same BS as Vietnam, Iraq, etc ... I can't beleive you are defending this.
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Hitchens:
0:55 - Opening remarks. The facts and history show that Russia was provoked by NATO encroachment for years, even more than a decade. There is no debate on the war, which was already started and set up in the last decade. Hard to debate when things have already gotten out of hand by dishonest Western agreements - i.e. Minsk.
5:15 - Asked what part of Ukraine should Ukraine give up, like Ukraine equals Britain. UK != Ukraine. Ukraine's border came from Russia and have changed drasticly in the last hundred years, and they are at war with their own people who happen to have ties to Russia. This lady, Julia Hartley-Brewer, is completely dishonest.
10:55 - Julia Hartley-Brewer again is dishonestly framing this war basically again saying it was unprovoked and that Putin has designs on other countries. This is fantasyland. Putin does not have the power to even take Ukraine, how is he going to take other countries? Framing Russia like WWII Germany is scare tactics for the ignorant.
The original status quo that the West failed to live up to was that Crimea is Russian - period. They voted to be part of Russia, and it is Russia and strategically important to Russia. It was given to Ukraine by Stalin in the 50's, but look back at Ukraine's borders over the centuries. How did it get from a tiny landlocked country to the largest country in Europe with access to the sea? Mostly in the last 100+ years - at the expense of Russia now.
What is fair is what was agreed to, but now, how can Putin ever trust the West? The West signed an agreement to not pull Ukraine into NATO, and to end the fighting in Donbas - that is what got Zelensky elected? Then he reversed course and headed towards war - with words about joining NATO. Yanukovych wanted Ukraine to be neutral and to trade with both the West and the East - which points towards this all being an economic war of the US against Russia.
This woman blathers on about how Ukrainians should have the right to do what they want to do, or more specifically what the Western PR propagandists have tried to convinve them of and say they want. But the Crimeans wanted to be part of Russia. Many polls and interviews with people have shown that Crimea wanted to be part of Russia, and of course after years of shelling the Donbas does not want Ukraine to be able to continue that. She is just outright lying and propagandizing a real mind-screwed story that does to reflect reality.
15:24 - Peter tries to get a word in edgewise several times while this women goes on about how he wants Ukraine to be an abused wife? How infinitely absurd. Peter nails it 100% here.
Now, the real argument against Russia, or Peter is that the US does not want to take the chance on Russia becoming the free and democratic powerhouse it might could become - because they are so close and influential to the EU. That is the core of the real argument here ... is that legitimate? Is the US validated in keeping Russia down for fear of what it might become - and for fear of what it might prevent the US from doing viz-a-viz expanding a liberal global economic system ... under US management of course.
There are arguments both ways, but the US in recent years has done the exact opposite in term of winning the world over to our point of view.
Julia Hartley-Brewer claims Ukraine has had elections since the overthrow, but that is when the Ukrainian government decided to go to war on the Donbas, and when Zelensky ran on a peace platform to end the war - that is what got him elected, and then he did the opposite ... how is that democracy Julia Hartley-Brewer ??? What she has said is ridiculous lies and propaganda.
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Peter is an amazing Conservative, a conservative that I as an extreme Progressive can agree with on almost everything, and what I don't agree with I can understand him and follow his LOGIC, which he does have.
For instance, one recent statement he was talking about socialism and how at whatever he called a mature age he reasoned it was utopian and would fail because it depended on changing human nature.
I replied to him on Twitter ( have yet to get an answer ) that all human society has depended in controlling or changing human nature, or creating a space ( some might even say a "safe space ) for people to allow their better natures to express themselves without fear of death or destruction.
Further, Peter believes in religion strongly, which is all about changing human nature for the better.
So, have I found a contradiction in PH's worldview, or a bias against socialism, or is Peter just wrong? ;-)
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Russia is not Left-Wing.
Relax, I am Left-wing and I agree with Peter. There were maybe tens to hundreds of times in the last 10 years to avoid this war, and all the West/US did was to double down and provoke it more. That said, Putin started it, and either blew it bigtime, or doesn't have the media power some say he does in the West, or just plain doesn't know what he's doing.
So many good debates on this, and the logical factual narratives are always on the Hitchens, Mearsheimer, Cohen, Kennan , etc side -- yet in these Oxford-Style rigged debates they always lose to the establishment line.
Both sides have to find a way to detach from their irrational extremists and find a way to realize that both sides are being played just as well as Putin was played in order that there be no social concensus on how America is broken and how to fix it.
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@vhufeosqap
You whole comment is not that fruitful.
When you remove your textual histrionics from that comment there is really not much left.
I'm not saying Ukrainian soveriegnty doesn't matter.
I'm saying when the Ukrainian government was captured by the US/NATO and decided to buy into their reality, which you've bought into as well - a reality where Ukraine ignored almost half the country, and in fact declared war on them. The half of the country that historically were the victims of Nazis when the German Nazis invaded Ukraine, and then continued with Nazi policies of murder, terror, genocide and ethnic cleansing against Russians and Jews by the way - that is an irretreivably broken and anti-human rights regime that is criminal.
But instead of doing the right thing about it, the US decided to make use of Ukraine's dysfunction to push it into a war with Russia.
I'm not making that up - and just because you either do not know about it or your support what the Ukrainian government was going does not mean you can assume you know it all and discount what I and many others - including a lot of experts who have spoken about it in public, with documentation, which is more than your BS censoring and yelling down other people who speak the truth.
You write a few lines to explain what happened that are not only wrong, but try to set yourself up as someone who knows that was goin on, but those lines are the common propaganda from the West- that are easily disprove by facts.
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@ThomasDanielsen1000
He was right - it's not for him to say, it is for peace negotiations to hammer out.
Personally, in my completely irrelevant opinion, the status quo before the war should have been according to Minsk agreement, that
- the fighting in the Donbas should have been ended, and
- those oblasts should have been giving autonomy while still belonging to Ukraine.
- Russia keeps Crimea because Crimea was given to Ukraine by the USSR under completely different circumstances, AND a vote and polling revealed the majority of Crimeans wanted to be with Russia.
- If you look at the history of Ukraine's borders they benefitted from expansionism from the 1600's. How did it go from a tiny landlocked country in the middle of today's Ukraine to the largest country in Europe? In the last hundred plus years Ukraine gained all those oblasts - from Russia. Now for secruity purposes and defense Russia wants them back.
- That goes to the invasion with money and CIA of Ukraine, first the US appointed Victor Yushenko President, remember his so-called poisoning that made world news. Yushenko was a terrible President and was voted out. Then Yanukovych, where Hitchens picks it up ran and was duly elected President. He was called a soviet puppet because his vision, and Putin's as well was to have a neutral Ukraine trading with both sides, Russia and the EU.
- Go look at Hitchen's Twitter feed and you'll see a book he quotes from explaining how Yanukovych was forced out of office - without due process. This was American meddling which pandered to the Nazi Nationalists.
- Then Poroshenko and Zelensky, both were in on arming training and preparing for - AND PROVOKING WAR by shelling the Donbas - even though Zelensky got elected on the promise to end the war.
The point is that the situation is so heavily slanted towards this Western narrative that answering that question out of context would be tantamount to saying Hitchens is Putin's puppet. This is very masterful, brilliant, mass-murderous vicious cold-blooded manipulation by the West - like the Nordstream pipeline that at this point people are brainwashed to not understanding. Again thousands, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people are killed for US interests and Ukraine is completely destroyed - ready for US interests and oligarchs to take over.
What is just in this case. It's almost impossible to say - but there were peace negotiations that started with what I was saying above that the West forced Zelensky to pull out of. Believe me, I hate putting my country, the US in the role of the villain - unless there was a solid reason for it. So far we have not even admitted to what we've done, and we are lying like crazy even about the Nordstream pipeline.
Do I think it would be better if Russia was to move on from Putin and become more democratic ... yes. But how would that happen and what would be next. Huge revolution and bloodshed in Russia next.
And - all of this happening like noithing else in the world matters ... like Global Warming. This may be the final action that has pushed us to be unable to solve that issue.
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