Youtube comments of (@premodernist_history).
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I love this. Great explanation of the issues involved.
A little off topic (because I don't want it to take away from your overall comment, which is awesome), I think your thoughts at the end about my France analogy support my point in an interesting way.
I'm guessing you and I would probably agree that we COULD see the Ottomans as a continuation of the Roman empire, if we look at it from the Ottomans' point of view, recognizing that others at the time might well have disagreed with them.
When you say republican France is in continuity with the ancien regime, "organic," "integral to the French identity," aren't you doing the same thing? We COULD see the French Republic that way, if we look at it from the republicans' point of view. Would we see it that way if looking from the monarchists' point of view?
I'm not saying you're wrong, necessarily. But it seems you're adopting the republican narrative and assuming that opposing French narratives don't exist. It would be like taking the Ottoman definition of "Roman" at face value and ignoring the Byzantines who would have disagreed with them. To paraphrase the video, the French Republic happened, but to call it a continuation of pre-revolutionary France is an interpretation we project onto it.
Maybe a mistake in my video was taking for granted my own interpretation of the French Republic (one of rupture rather than continuity with what came before) and not explaining what I meant or why that comparison makes sense to me.
But anyway, thank you for summarizing your paper. I enjoyed reading it.
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"The most visible name change came in 1934 when Reza Shah -- prompted by his legation in Berlin -- decreed that henceforth Persia was to be known to the outside world as Iran. A government circular explained that whereas "Persia" was associated with Fars and Qajar decadence, "Iran" invoked the glories and birthplace of the ancient Aryans."
Ervand Abrahamian, A History of Modern Iran (Cambridge, 2009), page 86
"In terms of foreign policy, Reza Shah was determined to maintain Iran's independence and to restore its sense of national pride by elevating its stature in the world and insisting it be treated with respect. This was the motivation behind any number of his actions, from insisting on the use of the name Iran instead of Persia to banning photographs of things that were picturesque but might give an impression of backwardness (camels, for example) to breaking off diplomatic relations with countries if its newspapers published unflattering articles about him or his country."
Elton L. Daniel, The History of Iran (Greenwood Press, 2001), pages 139-140
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But that's okay, right? Persians do the same thing to the Greeks. They call Greece Yunan, which is not what the Greeks ever called it. Yunan comes from Ionia, which was the small Greek-settled area on the west coast of Asia Minor in ancient times.
Or like how in Persian the word for Germany is Alman. The Germans don't call their country that. They say Deutschland. Alman comes from the Alemanni, a tribe that lived in what is now southwestern Germany.
Or Finland (the same name in English and Persian). The Finns call their country Suomi.
Or Armenia. Armenians call their country Hayestan, but Persians say Armanestan.
Or Poland, China, Korea, Japan, India, Georgia. In all those cases, the Persian name for the country is different from the native name.
Please don't feel that you must change all these Persian words. It is perfectly all right for the Persians to use names for these countries that the countries themselves don't use. Persian is its own language, and is allowed to have its own names for foreign countries.
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@Adam Shepherd You seem to be thinking about this from the standpoint of a construction tradesman. That would have been a rare occupation in sub-Saharan Africa before modern times. Remember, almost everyone was a subsistence farmer or gatherer. They didn't specialize in the building trades. It isn't a matter of a ruler forcing people to work inefficiently. It's a matter of subsistence farmers who occasionally, as a side project, put up a building.
Laborers on building sites did exist in areas with higher population densities, i.e. areas with cities. Those areas were the Mediterranean region, the Middle East, India, Southeast Asia, and East Asia. Areas of low population density, like Siberia, Australia, sub-Saharan Africa, the far north of Europe, and most of the Americas, did not have regular construction projects because populations were extremely low and spread out, and what building they did do was occasional and ad hoc.
What you said about the quality of the ground applies too. Wheelbarrows make sense when the land's been graded -- in the medieval world that would be cities (again, found only in certain regions) or in rural areas where wheeled traffic is already prevalent. An African farmer who decides to design a wheel-and-axle to ease his work will also have to invest the time and effort in grading the paths that his new ad-hoc wheelbarrow will travel on. Or he can take the path of least resistance and just pick the load up and carry it.
It wasn't that Africans (or any of these other people, e.g. Siberians, Laplanders, Eskimos) rejected work multipliers. It's more that they could get by with what they had. They weren't full-time construction workers, so we shouldn't expect them to think like one.
The way construction work is done now is a product of the Industrial Revolution and the rise of the modern capitalist economy. Now we expect construction to be happening constantly, and if an area doesn't have a lot of new construction, we say it's dying. That mindset is part of modern industrial capitalism and doesn't apply to the preindustrial world.
About the similarity with medieval Europe -- yes, in some ways the lifestyle of a medieval European farmer was very similar in broad strokes to that of a medieval African farmer. The standard of living was similar too. When the Portuguese visited the western coast of Africa in the 1400s, they described big, flourishing, rich kingdoms with big boats and powerful armies. But Europeans who visited those same areas in the late 1600s and 1700s described poor, ragtag kingdoms (which they were now calling "chiefdoms" and "tribes") with puny boats. Africa hadn't changed. Europe had. The Portuguese of the 1400s, as medieval Europeans, saw societies equivalent to their own. The Europeans of the 1700s lived in a much more complex and wealthy society, and therefore saw big gaps between their own lifestyles and the lifestyles of their African contemporaries.
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Awesome find! Thanks for sharing! That gave me the idea of checking some other dictionaries on archive.org:
A New Hindustani-English Dictionary (London, 1879), page 717:
rumi, n.m. A Turk.
Vocabulary of the English and Malay Languages (London, 1887), page 94:
Rum (Ar.) Constantinople. Benua Rum--the Turkish Empire, or ancient Rome.
Looks like we have a pretty stark difference between how the phrases "Roman" and "Roman empire" were defined in the West and in the Islamic world.
That line in the Punjabi dictionary, "or as universally understood in India, a Turk" got me thinking. Maybe part of the stumbling block for a lot of the commenters on this video is that they don't realize that the Ottomans did not use the term "Turk" to describe themselves. For Europeans, "Turk" meant all Ottoman Muslims, and then later excluding the ones who spoke Arabic. But in the Ottoman empire, "Turk" meant a rural pastoralist.
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Did you watch the video? I didn't say that Africans used waterways (although they in fact did). Africa does have inland navigable waterways. You might be thinking of the fact that African rivers hit falls and rapids shortly before reaching the sea, making them useless for sailing INTO Africa from the ocean. But there were trade routes along rivers within Africa. When away from rivers, Africans used pack animals or, in tsetse areas, human porterage.
I don't believe that "all human civilization must be equal" and I said no such thing in the video. My not-so-silent premise was that all humans are capable of creating and using technology. There is abundant empirical evidence that Africans did.
The "real answer" you so coyly refer to is not a real answer, because it can easily be turned around against Europeans. (You would know that if you watched the video.) There are many technologies that were in use in Asia for centuries before they were introduced into Europe. The abacus was used in Mesopotamia 2,000 years before it was used in Europe. The Chinese were using magnetic compasses 1,000 years before Europeans were. Paper and printing were in use centuries before, and literacy rates in China and Japan in the late Middle Ages were higher than in Europe. The Iron Age began in the Near East in 1200 BC, but it took 300 years after that for Italians to start working with it and 700 years for Scandinavians. What took them so long? Were they stupid?
I don't think Europeans were stupid. But by your logic, you have no choice but to conclude that they were.
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Hi, thanks for your comment!
It's misleading that the Wikipedia editor put three sources because they aren't three independent, corroborating sources. The first one (Reference 38, Ho 1970) doesn't make any claims about Mongol-caused fatalities. As its title suggests, it just gives population figures for China before the Mongols. But it is cited in the second source (Reference 39, McEvedy 1978). And the third source (Reference 40, Coleman 2005, cited in Wikipedia as Graziella Caselli, etc.) cites McEvedy 1978. So it's one source: McEvedy 1978.
McEvedy 1978 is the book I was referring to in the video when I said, "There's a book from the '70s that claims that North China's population dropped 75% due to death and displacement." He also claims that the Mongols massacred 35 million people in China. McEvedy is as far back as I've been able to trace this idea so far. He's basing this on reported census figures in China. That by itself is not enough evidence to say confidently that the Mongols killed that many people. Moreover, his discussion of the Mongol wars and their motivations is quite inaccurate. He was not a trained historian, definitely not a Mongol specialist, and apparently relied on pop culture for his information about the Mongol empire.
Also, the sentence these references are attached to reads, "it is possible that between 20 and 57 million people were killed between 1206 and 1405 during the various campaigns of Genghis Khan, Kublai Khan, and Timur." I might have missed it, but I don't believe any of the sources directly say this. Maybe the Wikipedia editor collated figures from different parts of one or more of the sources. (And if so, does that count as original research per Wikipedia rules?)
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@monarchofthesea9395 I thought the emperors of Trebizond claimed to be the legitimate rulers of Constantinople, but I just looked it up and apparently Emperor John II renounced the claim to Constantinople in 1282. I wonder if they still called themselves Romans though. If so, then 1461 would still count, I think.
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Ottoman claim. They occupied the same territory that the Eastern Roman Empire did, with the same capital. They were recognized as the legitimate Roman emperors by the Patriarchs of Constantinople. Sure, they seized control through military conquest, but then so did a lot of previous Byzantine emperors. Many new Byzantine dynasties were started by a general seizing Constantinople (sometimes through a violent sack, e.g. the Komnenids) and taking the throne by force.
Maybe the chief argument against the Ottoman claim is that they were Muslim instead of Christian. But that's a matter of one's personal definition of Roman-ness. Is Christianity an intrinsic part of Roman identity? Medieval Byzantines would have said yes, but I can imagine other Romans in other periods not necessarily agreeing.
If the Ottomans had been Christian, I strongly suspect modern historians would see them as one more in a long line of Byzantine dynasties.
As for the Russian claim, I know less about it, but as far as I know that was more a notion of spiritual successor. One defines the Roman empire as the bastion of the Christian faith. With the fall of Constantinople, Moscow is now the bastion of the Faith, ergo Moscow is the third Rome. I could be getting that wrong though. I'll need to do more research.
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Thanks! As a starting point, I'd look at this article on Wikipedia. It includes charts that summarize the various estimates, broken down by region:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_historical_world_population
I'd also recommend learning about the demographic transition. That's basically the mechanism by which we quintupled our population in a century (stage 2 especially -- lowering death rates and high birth rates).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition
The site Our World in Data has lots of really awesome graphs and visualizations:
https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth
I used their graphs in my video. Their historical estimates are actually a little higher than some others. If you look closely in the section of my video with all the graphs, the numbers I say don't always match with the numbers on the graph. That's why.
I like these two publications for an overview of historical demography:
1. United Nations, The Determinants and Consequences of Population Trends, 1973
https://archive.org/details/UN1973TheDeterminantsAndConsequencesOfPopulationTrends
2. John D. Durand, Historical Estimates of World Population: An Evaluation, 1974
https://repository.upenn.edu/psc_penn_papers/9/
For the link between food supply and human population level:
Russell Hopfenberg and David Pimentel, "Human Population Numbers as a Function of Food Supply,"
Environment, Development and Sustainability, Vol. 3, no. 1 (2001), pages 1-15
http://www.bioinfo.rpi.edu/bystrc/pub/pimentel.pdf
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@Jim777425 You say Osman declared jihad against the Romans. That's called the Ghazi Thesis, an old idea in Ottoman studies that Ottoman specialists today generally don't adhere to. The common view among specialists now (as far as I know) is that Osman was not motivated by religious zeal to spread Islam, and that he had Greek Christians as well as Turks among his followers.
More generally, there was not a strict distinction between the two sides, where all the Byzantine forces were Greek-speaking Christians and all the Ottoman forces were Turkish-speaking Muslims. There was a mix on both sides. Late Byzantine history includes lots of Turks participating in the Byzantine military (turcopoles) and of Ottomans fighting as allies alongside one side or the other of Byzantine civil wars.
Regarding ethnicity, countries in Antiquity and the Middle Ages didn't define their country according to ethnicity. That's generally a modern practice, less than 250 years old. For the Byzantines, what made you Roman was your culture and religion. Anyone from any (what we would call) ethnicity could be Roman provided they acted like a Roman and believed like a Roman. If the Ottomans had adopted Orthodox Christianity, then the Romans (Greeks) would have shrugged and acknowledged them as the next Roman dynasty. As a matter of fact, many of them did shrug and accept them, but that was often accompanied by conversion. The population of Turkey today is genetically largely the same as it was 600 years ago (albeit with some Turkic admixture). We only call them Turks because their ancestors converted to Islam rather than remain Christian.
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@joerogue231 This is a great list. Very interesting putting the Achaemenids first. My instinct would have been to put the Mongols first, but after seeing your list I'm not sure. In the period of the Achaemenids, the next biggest countries were (I'm guessing) some of the Warring States in China (Chu? Yue?), Magadha in India and the Carthaginians in the Mediterranean. A case could possibly be made for the Persians being far beyond them in power. A case could also be made for ranking Alexander's empire first or second. The trouble with ancient dynasties is we usually have so little economic and military data to go on.
Where would you put the Umayyads and Abbasids? I'd probably put them near the top, around 4th or 5th place.
I'd rank the Buyids and Samanids lower than you have them. Last place should be the Hotak, I think, and then Zand maybe next to last. Or the other way around.
The Pahlavi should be higher. I think their military was considered the largest in the Middle East at the time, and with lots of American hardware. I'd probably rank them somewhere between 15 and 20. Now, if you changed the parameters and just compare the power of each dynasty directly with each other, then the Pahlavi would be on top by far because their tanks and fighter jets could blow away every other dynasty's military. The Achaemenids wouldn't stand a chance.
I don't think I could actually pull off a proper ranking though. I'd second guess myself too much. Do the Kwarezmians go above or below the Seljuks? That sort of thing. I'd just keep rearranging them forever. That said, after some thought I think the top of the list would be (1) Mongols, (2) Alexander, (3) Achaemenids, (4) Abbasids, (5) Umayyads, (6) Sasanians. (The Parthians could maybe be in the top 6, but we know so little about them.) After that it gets hard to choose.
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Your second paragraph is what I mean by ignoring what I said in the video. As I said in the video, the people of the Middle East had horses, and yet they adopted camels for transportation. They went from wagons to no wagons. So coming back with, "The Europeans had horses" misses the point. As I said in the video, the tsetse fly kills large livestock that can be used as draft animals. That's the entire point of that section of the video. Europe's diseases didn't kill draft animals, so saying that Europe also had diseases misses the point.
To address your numbered questions:
1. I don't understand what you mean by Saharan versus sub-Saharan Africa. I was talking about Africa in general, except for North Africa which had wagons in Antiquity, and except for the Horn of Africa because I don't know if wheels were used there.
2. I said in the video that wagons and carts were used between rivers and settlements. So again, you are ignoring what I said in the video.
3. Camels pulling wagons/carts was tried in Late Antiquity and it was abandoned. I don't know why. The question of camels pulling wagons is discussed in Richard Bulliet, The Camel and the Wheel (Harvard University Press, 1975).
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@SomasAcademy In the video I was talking about livestock that could be used for traction. I only said "livestock" at 10:25 but from context I hope it's clear I was talking about livestock that can pull carts. I had a thesis to communicate regarding the use of the wheel. It would have been extraneous to the video for me to talk about small livestock.
Medieval Ghana was in the Sahel. I didn't talk about that region at all in the video. That has its own unique circumstances with regard to the question of wheeled transport, and I wanted to keep things simple.
Just to clarify, I didn't say that resistant breeds originated recently, only that their spread southward is recent. My source for this is Paul Starkey, Emmanuel Mwenya, and John Stares, Improving Animal Traction Technology: Proceedings of the First Workshop of the Animal Traction Network for Eastern and Southern Africa (ATNESA) Held 18–23 January 1992, Lusaka, Zambia (Wageningen, The Netherlands, 1994). On page 73 it says that trypanotolerant cattle are found in the northern part of the West African forest areas (e.g. southern Senegal, northern Cote d'Ivoire, northern Benin) and are used for plowing (doesn't mention traction), but in the coastal areas "there are very few cattle and no donkeys." It also says on the next page, "The southern limits of the trypanotolerant cattle, the zebu cattle, and donkeys seem to be extending southward year by year. ... Cattle are increasingly being brought into the coastal area, and animal traction is steadily spreading southward in most countries in West Africa."
The article "Genetic Resistance to African Trypanosomiasis" that you mentioned doesn't address the original range of trypanotolerant cattle or whether they can pull carts, but it does say that the resistance of N'Dama drops as exposure to tsetse challenge increases (p. 313). Maybe that could explain why they were restricted to the northern band of the West African forest zone (assuming Starkey is correct that they were)?
The other article you mentioned, "Unraveling Admixture, Inbreeding, and Recent Selection Signatures," seems to say that only dwarf breeds of West African Shorthorn are found in coastal areas. It says the smallest, the Lagune breed, reaches 93 cm at the withers. That's one yard. Holy cow that's small. Pending further information about them, I'm going to tentatively go with the assumption that they couldn't be used for traction.
It seems like perhaps there was some miscommunication among the three of us (including your professor). My source, Starkey, was talking specifically about cattle for traction, and that was what I was interested in for the video. Perhaps your professor thought I was talking about all livestock, including dwarf cattle unfit for traction.
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I wouldn't say they dominated. They were certainly able to push people around. But the locals were usually able to hold their own. You could argue their naval technology was marginally better, but not to the degree that they could enforce their will on everyone. The Europeans won some and the Asians won some.
That was vague I guess, so to be more specific... In the case of China, the Chinese banned Japanese ships from their ports because of rampant Japanese piracy. The Portuguese showed up and got the right to run trade between China and Japan. In Malaya, the Portuguese and Acehnese were evenly matched. The Ottomans shipped guns and cannons to the Acehnese, and also they captured Portuguese guns. In the Arabian sea, sometimes the governor of Gujarat would send out ships against the Portuguese, but usually the rulers in India didn't bother doing anything about it because they still got their luxury goods regardless and just didn't care what happened to Indian maritime merchants. The Ottomans sometimes put fleets in the Indian Ocean, but their focus was on fighting the Habsburgs in Europe and the Mediterranean -- and (it hardly needs saying) the Ottomans were in no way at a technological disadvantage there. I realize that just addresses the Portuguese phase, but this comment is already long.
As for the Atlantic side of Africa, as far as I know no Africans had bothered to go onto the ocean, so the Portuguese won by default.
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Yes, there are several other dates I could have mentioned besides the three I talked about in the video. The end of the Empire of Trebizond in 1461 is one of them. Also, the Russians and the Ottomans both claimed to be continuations of the Byzantine empire, so then we could add 1917 and 1922 as two other possible dates. I would put these three (1461, 1917, and 1922) in the same category as 1806, i.e. dates that could be argued to be technically correct but that are never used by modern historians for the fall of Rome.
I didn't think of it at the time, but in retrospect I maybe should have also talked about the Russians and the Ottomans in the video. But that would have made the video a lot longer, trying to explain why the Russians and Ottomans could be considered continuators of the Romans.
And then, incidentally, the Safavid shahs were descended from the emperors of Trebizond, so by virtue of descent maybe we could add them to the list (which would add 1722 or 1736 as candidates, depending on when we date the end of the Safavids). But they never claimed the title "Roman emperor", and IIRC they tended to call the Ottomans "Romans", so they probably shouldn't count.
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Naming nowadays is similar, but with some modifications. As I understand it, the kunya is always treated as a nickname. Someone will be called that, but they wouldn't write it on a form. In the Egypt/Levant area, people's names tend to be [name] [father's name] [grandfather's name] with no ibn in between, e.g. Tariq Abd al-Razzaq Muhammad, where Muhammad is the grandfather's given name. A lot of people also seem to have nisbas, but not everyone. On the Arabian peninsula, naming is more conservative (in my understanding). When Arabs travel to the West and have to fill out forms, they'll often use their grandfather's name as their "last name" for legal purposes, or they might use a nisba.
You can see an example of a modern Arab's name in Yasser Arafat. His complete name on Wikipedia is Mohammed Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini. Abdel Rahman is his father and Abdel Raouf is his grandfather. On the other hand, Mahmoud Abbas is just "Mahmud Rida Abbas," with no nisba (based on the Arabic Wikipedia).
All that said, I don't really understand modern naming customs because there seems to be a lot of variation. Also, a lot of names are hard for me to parse. For example the Egyptian author Taha Husayn. His full name according to the Arabic Wikipedia is Taha Husayn Ali ibn Sulama. I would think Husayn was his father's name and Ali was his grandfather's, but then what's the "ibn Salama"? I would assume, since Ali would have been born in the mid-19th century, that "Ali ibn Salama" was his name. But I'm not certain.
Thank you for the kind words. About pronunciation, that reminds me of an old SNL skit where they made fun of U.S. journalists who pronounce Latin American placenames with a self-consciously exaggerated Spanish accent. I think about that sometimes when I'm using Arabic terminology.
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I couldn't remember so I checked a couple of books. It looks like Teb Tengri and the brother, Temuge, didn't get along because Teb Tengri was trying to siphon off Temuge's followers for himself, building up an independent power base.
In the Secret History Borte tells Genghis Khan:
"Anyone who harms your brothers behind your back,
these brothers who are like cypress and pines,
will such people let my four little sons rule the Nation when they grow up?"
--Paul Kahn's translation (San Francisco, 1984), p. 156
Ratchnevsky wrote in his biography:
"It was clear that Teb-tengri sought a trial of strength with Genghis. ... There was no doubt that Genghis Khan was, in any event, determined to rid himself of this dangerous shaman, but it was certainly not easy for him to overcome his superstitious awe of the shaman's supernatural powers."
--Paul Ratchnevsky, Genghis Khan: His Life and Legacy, p. 100
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My understanding is that the Ottoman dynasty was fine with people carrying on the old Byzantine customs (with some exceptions, like no more religious processions or other public displays of Christianity), but the dynasty itself did not assimilate to Byzantine culture. There must have been some cultural mixing in the dynastic family given just how many former Byzantines there were knocking about (including some of the sultans' mothers). But I get the impression the Ottoman sultans treated the title "Caesar of Rome" as a piece of property they had inherited from the former owners of the city, rather than something they actually took to heart. Except Mehmet II -- he seemed to really dig the whole Roman thing.
The way I think of it (though I'm not an expert on either the Ottomans or the British, so take this with a grain of salt) is like this: Charles is the Lord of Mann, but that doesn't make the people of the UK Manx. The Roman empire became a component of the Ottoman empire. The Ottoman sultan was Caesar of Rome vis-a-vis his Greek Orthodox subjects (to the extent they cared about such a title), whereas he had different titles vis-a-vis other subjects. The difference with the Isle of Mann was that the Roman empire wasn't a geographic section of the Ottoman empire. It was more like, those subjects whose allegiance had been to the Byzantine emperors, wherever they were in Ottoman territory, were the sultan's Rum subjects. The people of Egypt or Iraq, or indeed most Muslims in Anatolia and Greece, didn't care about Byzantine legitimacy so they ignored the sultan's title of caesar and weren't called Rum.
To answer your last question, your hypothetical person/country could call themselves Roman. Whether others would accept them as Roman would depend on their own expectations of what a Roman is supposed to be.
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I was using the terminology of the time. Here's the Maryland Election Law of 1788, section VI:
And be it enacted, That every person coming to vote for electors of president and vice-president, agreeably to the directions of this act, shall have a right to vote for eight persons, five of whom shall be residents of the western shore, and three of the eastern shore, and the five persons residents of the western shore, having the greatest number of votes of all the candidates on that shore, and the three persons residents of the eastern shore, having the greatest number of votes of all the candidates on that shore, shall be declared to be duly elected.
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When the Portuguese arrived at the Congo in 1482, the War of the Roses was still being waged in England. Warfare there consisted of archers and melee weapons (axes, daggers, etc.). Cannons were used in sieges, but handheld firearms, while they were used, played a minor role.
The Kongolese army in 1482 consisted of a core of heavy infantry, called "shield bearers" who carried swords, and a larger number of light infantry who would fire arrows at the beginning of battle and then close in for hand-to-hand combat using axes, daggers, etc.
Warfare did work differently. Europeans at the time avoided pitched battles and preferred sieges, while in Central Africa they tended to prefer pitched battles. But I don't see a big technological gap here. European handheld firearms in the 1400s sucked and consequently were not widely used. European armies focused on archers, cavalry, and pikemen. It was only slowly, over the course of the 1500s and 1600s, that European firearms improved to become the main infantry weapon.
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