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  479.  @steinwaldmadchen  You need to do more research. Energy density is only one metric. CATL is capable of making the same batteries as Panasonic, but they have gone way beyond that. Their latest LFP batteries have almost same energy density, but with 3 times charge cycles and lifespan, and much safer than Japanese or Korean batteries when it comes to fire resistance. Same with Zeekr Golden battery, able to withstand 1000 degree fire, and charge in -21 degrees in 8 minutes, 500 km range. Oh, and at half the cost of Panasonic. Japan and Korea batteries are last generation. I'm sorry you are wrong again. Tesla pefers to use CATL batteries, in fact they do in China and Europe, and even some models shipped to Canada comes with CATL batteries, but not for US due to trade sactions. CATL batteries are safer, and have longer service life with almost no degradation for 15+ years. Also you don't need to worry about charging to 100%. With Panasonic batteries, they recommend not charging to 100% too often, only to 80% capacity most times. Tesla is building a CATL factory in America to get around the trade tarrifs, and so is Ford. They are using CATL technology and equipment, but owned by Tesla and Ford. Panasonic has been losing market share to CATL and BYD for the past 5 years, and continue to lose. If Japan is so much superior than China why are they losing market share? um? When it comes to fire safety, all the latest EV fires are caused by LG chem's batteries. Google BYD blade batteries, Zeekr Golden batteries, they do not explode or catch fire like LG or Panasonic batteries even when penetraded by a nail. Another win for China, Japan fades into irrelevance.
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  684.  @steinwaldmadchen  I do understand all that. Japanese tunnel vision on energy density is stupid. Why would I want a high energy density battery that's highly reactive and easily catch fire, and only has 1500 charge cycles? when I can get LFP battery with slightly less energy density, but last 2 - 3 times longer in charge cycles and much more stable and safer? For average consumers, you don't need high performance sports EVs, but reliable, safe cars that gets you from point A to point B and last for years and years without degradation. CATL is in the lead in LFP battery chemistry, and their latest Shenxing battery has 208wh/kg at system level, enabling some 700 - 1000 km range EVs. That's more than enough for 99% of use cases. If you are fixated on solid state then fine. Again Chinese is leading the way. Nio already has a semi solid state battery in production, it's expensive, I don't see it being competitive with other Chinese EVs. when full solid state batteries do come out, it'll be even more expensive, no one will buy them. In fact I think it'll be Chinese company, not a Western one that will first bring full solid state battery to mass production if it ever becomes a thing. Toyota has been promsing EVs with solid state battery for 12 years. They had the first RAV4 EV in the 90s. Look how fast Chinese are innovating vs Japanese vs American legacy autos (excluding Tesla). The speed of innovation is many folds faster for the Chinese. At this pace, there is no way American or Japanese can catch up to China, the gap will just keep getting wider with protectionism, because Japanese autos just announced they are sticking with the ICE, not going all in on EVs, as it'll be no threat to them now that US market will still have ICE demand for decades to come thanks to Chinese EV tarrifs, consumers have no choice, but to keep buying dirty old gasoline cars because non-Chinese EVs will be too expensive.
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  1019.  @clarkkent9080  It's inefficient because if its size. But compared with the same size gas vehicle it is much more efficient, provided that you plug in and charge everyday when you park at home. As for EVs taking longer to warm up, it depends on what you mean. When you cold start a gas car and start to drive it immediately, you can feel sluggishness from engine, not with electric motor, it responds instantly no difference in responsiveness. No loud startup noise or vibration. Smooth and quiet, Once you get used to the refinement of an EV, it's hard to go back to gas car as daily driver. Especially if you just want to take a 5 minute short trip or even just move a parking spot or driveway, with gas car, you have to experience the starting engine vibration etc. However, when there is a winter storm, I don't mind start gas engine to take advantage of its waste heat to heat up the car, and who cares about EV range or efficiency then it's not an everyday occurance, it's only 5 - 10% of usage. Of course if you live way up north then maybe EVs are a tough sell. I live in southern Ontario Canada, even here we only get on 3 really bad snow storms in an average winter, and 2 months of really cold temperature that I have to turn on gas engine if I have to go further than 20 km. Had I lived in southern US states, I would just go for a pure EV, but in the colder climate, I like the safety of PHEV, but still enjoy the refinement and savings of electric motor in warmer months. I don't know about Mazda CX-90 electric motor noise, it maybe a defect that have to fix, but I drive a Volvo XC90 PHEV, I've experienced no such noise. I don't have heat pump in this car either, and yes resistive heater drains battery a lot, but I don't care because I don't rely on battery for range or heating in extremely cold days, I just turn on gas engine if necessary, but I still save 95% of fuel a year given the same size car/SUV. Actually I hate heat pump, my previous pure EV came with heat pump, it made a lot of noise and vibration even lounder than gas engine in really cold days. I believe using fuel for heating is more robust solution than trying to squeeze out last bit of efficiency in heating with battery. Another big use gas for me is taking a nap in it when my kid is getting too loud inside the house. I can never nap in a gas car because running AC requires idling engine and feel all that vibration and noise, and exhaust gas. No matter how clean you say modern gas cars have become, if you stand next to an idling car, it's not a pleasant feeling or smell! I know there are a lot of purists out there, either all for EV, or all for ICE cars. I guess it's human nature tend to lean on one extreme or the other. But the truth is that both EV and ICE have their own strenghts and weaknesses, I see PHEV having good of both worlds, slightly more expensive but a lot of EV owners also have a ICE car in garage, a PHEV would reduce two cars to one for many of them, and save a ton of space and some money as well. As for no money saved because PHEV costs more than similarly equiped gas car? Did you consider the resale value of the PHEV will be higher than similarly equipped gas car as well? So you did not "spend" that money completely, some of that money you will get back when you sell that car several years down the road.
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  1020.  @clarkkent9080  Bro you need to look at the actual stats. Battery warranty does not mean you have to replace battery right after warranty. Vast majority of EV/PHEVs batteries are good many years after that. As for resale value, I do look at used car market quite often, and I have ad 3 EVs and 2 PHEVs in the past 7 years. Most of them kept value so well that , 2 of them I drove for a year and sold for more than I paid new (Tesla model 3, and Toyota RAV4 prime). VW e-golf I drove for a year and half and only depreciated about 10%. My current XC90 PHEV definitely will not keep value welll because it's a high end luxury vehicle I am aware of that but I enjoy its luxury and many bells and whistles that will break over time I'm ok with that it's a splurge on my part. But if you look at 5 year old XC90 PHEV and the same gas version XC90 T6 inscription , PHEV version definitely has higher resaule value - the difference is very close to the difference when they were new. So if the market condition remains same 5 years from now, I 'm not really paying any more premium for owning a PHEV than a gas car, but still enjoy all the perks and fuel savings PHEV brings. I'll give you one thing though. If you are a low mileage user and don't care to nap in the car while running the AC, AND if you want to keep your car forever - 20 years or more, then go with ICE. ICE degrades mostly on mileage, batteries degrade on calendar time. So if you are a grandma only drive to church and grocery stores a few times a week, then keep your ICE car for 20+ years no problem. EVs only make sense if you are high mileage user as far as fuel savings is concerned.
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  1074.  @nickmcconnell1291  Nah, I already knew video generation was possible even 5 years ago, it was just matter of waiting for faster hardware and packaging it nicely for consumers like Open AI did. There is nothing revolutionary here. A pocket calculator can do multiplication millions times faster than humans, doesn't mean it can reason. AI machine learning can play chess better, can generate videos based on pattern matching, doesn't mean it can reason. Humans can learn from a handful examples, machine learning models need millions. They lack flexibility and general reasoning of human brain. In a game simulation, maching learning algorithm will be eatn by a lion a million times in various different ways before it learns to avoid it every time, not just sometimes. Even the dumbest human players will learn to avoid lions EVERY time, after just being eaten once, or twice. That's why sometimes you get werid mistakes from AI, such as a realistic looking picture of a farmer, but he has 6 fingers in one hand. Or videos with 3 wolves emerging out of just one body. Sometimes in Tesla FSD, a glare or smoke, or flash or light will make it mistaken for sometime else, and brake hard. It's all just examples of werid errors even the dumbest humans will not make. They cannot generalize and reason in broader context. All we are doing now with the current AI is improving task-specific level, making them more accurate and faster, but will never be able to adapt and be flexible like humans. What if FSD car encounters a police officer redirecting traffic with hand gestures? How many different hand gesture data examples does it need to be trained on before it can accurately and reliably handle all situations? Not all police officers do gestures the same way, not all of them wear the same uniform, some have gloves on, some don't, some use 1 finger, some uses 3 fingers etc. etc. What if there is a road rage, can AI read the "emotions" of the scene? Humans can sense danger and steer away from such situations. There many many such examples that the current AI machine learning bots simply unable to handle as well as humans can intuitively. I've been in this field many years. I hate to use the term AI because we don't have it yet. What we have is machine learning model of nueral network, which is not a model of human brain or mind, but simply a computer algorithm optimized for pattern reconition and reconstructure. It does not have ability to reason or understand which are both required for being called intelligent. You can ask a machine to generate a picture or a video of roomful of people at party. Then Ask the machine learning AI what is the vibe or mood of the roomful of people, and who is at the center of attention. Is he/she feeling happy or sad? It will not be able to answer these simple questions, but average humans can effortlessly.
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  1124.  @steinwaldmadchen  Those Hans were built in 2021 or before, using older generation of blade batteries which had NMC chemistry. And not that many compared to major Western brands. Tesla had 198 spontaneous fires as of 2023. And famous Chevy Bolt EV recalled 69000 of them due to defective LG Chem batteries that caused 16 fires. And recently, the same LG chem batteries used in Jaguar i-Pace and Volvo XC90,XC60 also caused several fires while charging. But media likes to FUD BYD and other Chinese EV makers don't they? They feed people like you to want to believe Chinese inferiority, and Western exceptionalism. Tesla and Ford are building CATL battery factories in the US to get around tarrifs licensning CATL's LFP battery patents and equipment. Once they are complete, US automakers will be able to build Chinese quality EVs (that's a good thing, not a bad thing as most of you think), and offer to consumers. Panasonic and LG chem will keep losing market share to CATL and BYD, regardless of tarrifs and restrictions. Companies will find a way to build the most competitive products at lowest cost, regardless of the country of origin. Tarrifs and trade restrictions are just a temporary inconvinience. If BYD was so bad why does Toyota chooses to partner with them? Toyota developed BZ4X, and BZ3X with BYD, and recently Toyota adopted BYD's PHEV DM-i platform essentially, will be rebadging BYD cars as Toyota. Doesn't Toyota care about quality, safety and reliability? Clearly, they could have chosen to partner with Koreans or GM? Clearly, they did their homework and figured Korean and American EV tech and batteries are even more fire prone and unreliable.
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  1126.  @steinwaldmadchen  we can agree to disagree but the reality is Japanese autos are losing market share in markets where Chinese EVs are not heavily tariffed. The trend will continue. Toyota's strategy to "wait" may be the result of inability to innovate as fast as Chinese EVs and Tesla. You are wrong about EVs remain as a niche market very wrong. Maybe in places like US and Japan where legacy autos are lobbying hard against EV adoption. Norway is almost 100% EV now, and China is 50% (new car sales). Even here in Canada, it's approaching 15%. That's far from being niche. LFP batteries while slightly lower energy density, has much longer service life, 2-3x charge cycles, and lower cost, and does not require rare earth metals like nickle, therefore much more environmentally friendly. How many people need to drive more than 50 miles a day? Even last gen LFP battery EVs have over 200 miles range. There is absolutely no need to go over that with higher density NMC chemistry which comes with many negative properties such as unable to charge to 100% without degradation effects. The key for EV adoption is charging infrastruction. China is doing a lot better than the US, whille Europe is somewhere in the middle. Biden's inflation reduction Act budgetted 7.5B for EV charging network, after 2 years, only 7 chargers were built. It's pathetic how innefficient and corrupt the US compared to China when it comes to efficiency of public projects. Most of that money probably went to line venture capitalists pockets instead of going into the real work. Though not still not perfect, You can't help but to be impressed by China's pace of innovation, and how fast the quality of their cars has risen in such a short span of time. We can argue all our lives and compare specific brands short comings to no end, but if you look at over all, most of high end Chinese EV brands quality are about equal that of high end European brands, and much better than American GM / Ford. Sure out of over 100 EV brands in China, there are still low end, poor quality ones, but top tier brands such as Zeekr, Nio, Geely, Xpeng, BYD are making amazing cars. And their technology and manufacturing methods are exceeding most of Western legacy autos and neck to neck with Tesla. Just imagine in another 5 years, the gap could widen even more, and we will still be waiting for Toyota's solid state promise that will never come, but they will do fine selling gas guzzling 4 runners, and land cruisers to hard core Toyota fans in Amuuurica.
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  1579.  @KP-xi4bj  Your bias is based on old perception of inferior Chinese quality and not keeping up to date with the latest development. The fires you cited are usually PHEV, or older models of BYD cars that used previous generation of batteries, or are PHEVs. The current generation of BYD blade batteries, and CATL LFP batteries are far safer and infact industry leader, well ahead of Korean and Japanese competition by a mile. Then there is the cutting edge Zeekr Golden battery that will withstand fire up to 1000 degrees without catching fire. Beat that Panasonic or LG? LG to pay up to $1.9 billion to General Motors over Bolt EV battery fires - October 2022, CNBC General Motors recalls 140,000 Chevrolet Bolt EVs over fire risks - December 2022, CNBC Chevy Bolt EV That Missed Battery Recall Spontaneously Combusts On Mass. Driveway - August, 2023, Carscoops EV Jaguar 'spontaneously' catches fire while charging in garage - January 2024, Fox31 Tesla catches fire at charging station - New Orleans WWLTV, March 2024 - Note that Teslas sold in America use Panasonic or LG batteries, not Chinese due to tax incentive qualification rules. BYD Switches to EV Batteries It Says Won’t Ever Catch Fire - BNN Bloomberg, August 2023 The same new fire-resistant materials the battery cell is made out of are claimed to not explode when subjected to extreme heat, which is reassuring, and to prove it Zeekr says when dropped in a fire pit at a temperature of 700C the Golden Battery didn't ignite or detonate for more than 240 seconds - December 2023, EV Central
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  2440.  @KP-xi4bj  even with your own numbers, why does the best EV brand Tesla lose more value than a crappy Honda? what will be after 8 years? After 12 years? After 15 years? Batteries will probably need replacing after 12 years. If not they will be obsolete and worth nothing. Ice will stay the same if well maintained and low mileage. EV batteries degrades with calendar aging regardless of maintenance and mileage You are the naive one to keep telling yourself because Tesla doesn't need maintenance in the first few years there is no cost? What about repair costs in case of damage? Ok you are a perfect diver you will never damage it fine. Depreciation alone over Corolla and Civic negates any fuel savings. And why are you so proud about rebates? Does it reflect the true merit of a car or artificially inflated number by the government policies? Toyota Prius prime and RAV4 prime actually increased in value after 1-2 years and will still save you 95% of fuel and still qualifies for government incentives here in Canada. And they will have much better long term reliability then Tesla or any EVs in the market, maybe except for BYD but Chinese EVs are banned thanks to hypocrite government. As for the warranty length, usually the worst brands have the longest warranty. Hyundai and Kia come to mind also VW. Battery warranty doesn't mean other components won't break. Those model S with over 200k miles usually have electric motors replaced 3-4 times. Battery pack also replaced under warranty. Toyota don't need lengthy warranty, their reliability history has proven it already. There are many 20, 25 year old Toyotas still on road with minimal maintenance. Carry on with your hubris. Believe the mainstream narrative that government tries hard to push down your throat.
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  2528.  @nickmcconnell1291  You couldn't be more wrong. I've been in AI research for over 10 years, and it's amazing to see Elon Must has not a faintest grasp of fundamental difference between brute force machine learning and AGI. He is trying to apply something rudimentary and inefficient to a task that requires more flexibility and complexity in a completely different nature. You can have 1000000 trillion miles of driving data, and 100000 trillion times faster computer than 1000000 trillion NVDIA A100 GPU running in parallel training the neuro-network for 10000 trillion years, it will still not be as good as flexivility and intuition of a chimpanzee's brain. Just because the machine learning algorithm can generate realistic looking videos (which is specific task), it doesn't have flexibility of reasoning and adapbility. For example, Ask it to read emotion or vibe of the room filled with various people, it will have no clue. Human brains takes just a few exmaples (a dozen or so), and 1/10000 of energy to learn a new task. The best machine learning algorithm takes magnitude more than that. It screams bruteforce, and the real AI breakthrough doesn't come from faster chips, or more data, it will come from a more elegant architecture, and maybe years away even at academic levels. All these mad chase for FSD etc is fool's errand. I will bet 1 million dollars, FSD will not come in 2 year,s not in 10 years. Just have another analogy. Your pocket calculator can do multiplication a million times faster than you, does it mean it's smarter than you? Sure the machine learning took pocket calculator to the next level, it can do pattern recognition, and even reconstruct based on some inputs, but they are still TASK-SPECIFIC. It cannot do general learning like humans do, and and key is that it takes million times more data to learn from - meaning they cannot reason and generalize like humans. In a game, They have to be eaten by lions 100000 times in various ways before they learn to run from lions. Humans will learn it after just a couple of times even for the most stupid players.
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  2725.  @steinwaldmadchen  Vast of fires on BYD vehicles were their PHEVs, not BEVs which uses older generation of inferior batteries. The current and next gen. BYD blade batteries are extremely fire resistant, won't catch fire even penetrated with nail. Same with CATL ShenXing batteries. If you look at the statistics all cars by insurance institutes, BEV fires are 60 times less likely than ICE car fires, and PHEV fires are twice more likely than ICE car fires. and BYD makes a lot of PHEVs in China, but none of their BEV cars caught fire. I've owned 3 EVs since 2017, and here in Canada, 10% of Teslas sold used to come from China (though not anymore, since Canadian government just followed the US EV tarrifs on Chinese EVs.) I'm actively involved in EV community forums, and general consensus is that LFP batteries are superior to NMC chemistry despite slightly lower energy density, but the longevity and charging characteristics (you can charge to 100% without worrying about degradation) more than make up for it. In fact most Tesla buyers here ask how they can get their hands on Teslas made in Shanghai because they will come equipped with CATL LFP batteries, instead of regular Panasonic cells if it were made in the US. Why are Chinese still researching NMC and solid state chemistry? Because it's a big country with lots of brains! The same reason, the US researchers are researching all kinds of subjects in every directions. You never know where you will find the next breakthrough. LFP for now is clearly the leader and consumers choice when it comes to EV batteries
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  3310.  @yeahbuddy92193911  I'm a software engineer I know exactly what software fixes mean. It's not some kind of magic that will actually repair physical problems that your car might have. If it came a faulty component that might cause fire for example, software fix is not going to replace it, it will just disable it but the faulty component is still there just not used anymore, therefore no danger of fire. If that component is not critical to the function of car, then disabling it by software is much easier then taking them to shop to disconnect it or replace it. But it does come with a cost that whatever that component was designed to do, doesn't do anymore. Maybe it was for efficiency or backup for some rare situations. It takes out some functionality of the car. Another type of software fix is parameter adjustment. If users complain about reduced range for instance, software fix is to reduce the battery buffers so that more of battery pack can be used. This appears like magic for those gullible users. Battery buffers were there for good reasons, to prevent overcharging and over discharging. Reducing that could reduce longevity of battery or worse increase fire risk. And the final type of software fix is software bugs themselves. Thus my question is if Tesla fixes so many recalls by software update, does it mean they have such a bad software with so many bugs in it? Why didn't they get it right from the start? Or are they just doing bunch of bandaid fixes to the real physical problems?
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