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zarqawe You didn't answer my question instead you came up with Pascal's wager, yawn … And then you make it sound like there was only one possible god concept, you too live your life without many different other god concepts, ever thought you might regret this as well? ;) Quick, start praying to Zeus, Vishna, Mithras, etc. as well, just in case and since you are already being pragmatic (because that is what this argument, Pascal's wager, basically boils down to: pragmatism).
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+Brad Christy
> "Militia" refers to "the people". If they'd meant "military", they would have written it that way.
Ahaha, please stop embarrassing yourself. Have a look:
"The Congress shall have power […] To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions […] To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;" (Article I, Section 8)
"The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States" (Article II, Section 2)
It's clear that militia refers to a conscription army, everyday people that got drafted.
> The Federalist Papers explains this in in specific detail.
Where they talk about how regular training of the militia army similar to the Swiss model (which the Swiss have to this day BTW) would be necessary? Heh, I am sure you wouldn't be happy about doing mandatory conscription training and then becoming a reservist who can be drafted at any time…
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FlowerRFabulous
> what is there to "circumcised"?
You can remove the clitoral hood and maybe parts of the labias around there, would lower the amount of "smegma" which people would consider to be more hygenic.
> it's harder to feel the "hard on"
O_o
> this is coming from a woman's perspective
Ah, OK.
> men are already 3 pump chumps as it is, with the extra skin they'd be like .5 chumps.
> I just still don't see it as a big deal especially for men
And this is why you wouldn't be OK with doing it to female babies? Remember, that was my question to you, you didn't answer my question.
> he's still working
He would still work after more invasive procedures, hell I bet you could remove the whole had and it would still work, and she still works as well as countries in Africa show, what's your point? Every procedure is OK as long as the organ still (somewhat) works?
Be consistent, try to think a rule independent of culture, sex or physical appearances for judging permanent body modification procedures done to minors. And then tell me whether the current legal system where male circumcisions are legal but similar procedures done to female babies are illegal is OK.
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DijitalKid > If I were to go through all of these comments and try to educate all of these angry men, then I would be spending far too much time in this comment section.
Way to weasel out, why comment then at all?
> I'm speculating that's mostly who is commenting because, we're on the internet
And there is no internet in kitchens, right? :-> Seriously if you want to make an argument against what you might consider a patriarchy, then don't make such asinine assumptions.
> Feminism is not bad and is needed but people need to differentiate between an actual feminist movement and other "feminazi" type arguments.
Oh… how many times I heard that before, with "communism", "nationalism", "Shia Islam", "Sunni Islam", "libertarism" [sic]. Often in such discussion there will then be "no true Scotsmen" situations, …
why not simply abandon such simple single-word terms? Say simply, I am against objectification in general, seeing people as a whole, yadda, yadda,…
> but Barbie is a HORRIBLE role model and it's been established years ago.
Now we are talking, from the looks I certainly agree, on the other hand it's interesting to hear that Barbie also might be helped in sparking interests for certain professions not typical for women at the time.
> It's also been established that Sports Illustrated is a magazine mostly for straight men
Or maybe men who want to appear manly but in reality long more for the athletic male bodies in there. ;) (just speculating)
> who sometimes end up wanting an unobtainable image such as Barbie's for real women and that becomes a problem
Maybe, but that reminds me of the violence in movies/video games discussion, how much does media really shape our perception? Aren't we able to discern reality from fiction/non-representative reality? Did dime novels in the past change our perception?
> but it isn't nearly as bad for them as it is for females.
I wonder whether that's true or whether that can even be really answered. Think about it, as long as "the man" is still considered the breadwinner and huge wealth is seen as a default aim in life this is going to create pressure.
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InYourFace
> Slavery was endemic to humanity for a very long time.
So? Does not make it OK. In only helps explaining why a man-made religion would not abolish it (because it wouldn't be popular and not coming from an almighty being you would have to care about such things).
> Our concept of slavery, thanks to our superficial and often erroneous education, is confined to the Atlantic slave trade.
Not mine. Owning people is immoral in any case.
> Slavery in ancient times was more a product of society when people would sell themselves because they were indebted, or they sought the shelter and protection of a tribe and in return contributed to the workload.
Not entirely, people also used to be born slaves, become slaves after wars (war brides), etc.… It's disingenuous to make it seem like people just enslaved themselves.
Bible clearly says that they are property and that it's less bad to beat or rape them (Exodus 21:20-21, Leviticus 19:20). Oh and that children can be born and remain slaves (Exodus 21:4).
> The Bible clearly considers the forcible abduction and enslavement of people as a crime worthy of the death penalty.
So how do you explain the following?
"How can we provide wives for those who are left, since we have taken an oath by the Lord not to give them any of our daughters in marriage?" Then they asked, "Which one of the tribes of Israel failed to assemble before the Lord at Mizpah?" They discovered that no one from Jabesh Gilead had come to the camp for the assembly. For when they counted the people, they found that none of the people of Jabesh Gilead were there.
So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin."
(Judges 21:7-11 [NIV])
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
(Num. 31:15-18 [NIV])
I will come back to the NT later. Even if you think those rules are abolished now, that the law didn't come from Moses and Jesus did not come to fulfill it, you would still have to believe that your god still considered it OK at some point.
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TheCultivatedMind
> Because the absence of evidence doesn't equate to the evidence of absence.
The burden of proof is on you if you make a claim, it's not reasonable expect anything in the absence of evidence.
> slow rate of releases from Snowden
FYI again, he doesn't release anything anymore.
> For example, they've used this - exact - tactic with the Fukushima disaster in Japan...
There simply all information at hand once?
> Turning up the heat slowly is less likely to make the frog jump out than immediately putting it into a boiling pot of water.
Fun fact: that's not really true.
> For all we know, Snowden is still working for the government;
For all we know, that's not the case. Claims over claims, but proofs? Nope.
> It would be a great plan that would be quite effective in killing 2 birds with one stone.
"Would", many things would be great plans, if e.g. Obama was a reptilioid, but just because you can think of a possible explanation does not make it any more credible. As always one going for the least complex explanation in the absence of evidence has proven well (otherwise like I said before you can always assume the Matrix conspiracy).
> But like I asked before, do you have any inside information where you absolutely know for a fact that we're being told the whole story or is this just the theory you'd like to believe?
Burden of proof is on you.
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romanmir01
> I am sure there will be people falling through the crack in ANY system, wouldn't you agree?
Sure, in some systems it's just more people than in others. And what is especially dangerous are processes where economic divides are reinforcing itself so you end up with a system with practical serfdom.
> Beyond that, policy of giving up power to the violent government should not be built based on most marginal cases.
Heh, I just remembered some "libertarian" once saying that the individual is the most marginalized group.
> but it is then used to give more power to the violent government system, which then uses that power to dominate and take more power and destroy the economy and society.
That's why IMHO a system of checks and balances is needed. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
> Some form of risk is required to keep a free nation, don't you think?
Some sort of regulation is required to keep a free nation, don't you think? Now maybe we are defining "free" differently, because IMHO an individual in a system of practical serfdom wouldn't be free, certainly not "free" compared to someone on the top.
BTW, I would loved you getting more in detail about your ideas concerning airwaves and air/water.
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Ryan McClure
> The militia is the people.
It is? Then explain to me the following parts of the constitution:
The Congress shall have Power To […]
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
[…]
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; […]
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YamiShadow Kitty
> Occam was happily religious throughout his entire life
I don't care about him personally, I don't consider him a prophet, I am not trying to appeal to his authority, …
(Why do certain types of people assume that everyone thinks the way they do and follow every word/action of a prophet. I've seen this before, creationists starting arguments with what Darwin supposedly said/did, as if it changed anything about evolution itself… it really baffles me how these people have such similar thinking patterns that are so different to mine.)
> It would be a misunderstanding to suppose that his Razor is meant to remove the possibility or existence of the nonphysical from our sphere of awareness.
It is meant to uphold scepticism towards all claims, especially those extraordinary ones that change more of the status quo, e.g. if you allow for magic you allow for a lot more. Otherwise you could always insert everywhere an absurdly complex explanation for no good reason and there would be no rules and regularities. Can you assume I am a human more or less like you as opposed to an alien? Yes, unless there is good reason to assume that I am in fact an alien.
> I love weird definitions that are easy to rip apart.
> You clearly don't know what physical means and are trying to equate it to "exists" as a sleight of hand, to remove the possibility of the nonphysical mind outright.
How about offering your own? I am happy to be using it in discussions with you.
> Yet it isn't a physical thing so much as a nonphysical/spiritual manifestation which can affect the physical.
What's that supposed to mean? Again, define "physical" please. And using no circular/recursive definitions if you may.
> That something is nonphysical doesn't mean that it does not follow rules-- only that whatever rules it might follow are probably not the rules which physical things follow.
That's circular.
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quell qunn
> yet they do the opposite
I am sure you can find people who say that you are the one not interpreting and acting upon it correctly. Then you have Sunnis saying that Shia are not real Muslims, Sunni school X (let's say Sufis) saying the rest aren't the real deal, then liberal Muslims, Qurans, Neoplatonists who all claim to hold the truth in their hands and an outside observer has no way of judging whether one group is more "genuine" (if something like that even exists) or not. That's too complicated, my way is the simpler way and more reasonable, not all interpretations, schools of thoughts matter equally in the world, that's why making the majority more representative is the best idea IMHO.
Besides, if you believe an all-powerful, all-knowing creator being made everything happen with full knowledge in advance you can always say that something (or rather everything) is part of the "plan", including that the religion turns out like that.
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> From a genetical standpoint, yes they are quite well defined,
Nu-huh, you might want to look into in. The whole definition of "race" is even less objective than "species" (which sadly enough isn't perfect either) and when it comes to humans there is really hardly any reasonable classification, it might have only worked had all humans lived in groups on secluded islands for 100,000s of years (e.g. as with birds).
> Of course you could argue that there is a difference between ethnicities and races
Of course there is, one is about culture (e.g. language, traditions), the other implies something biological.
> However, the point I was trying to make is that it is silly to define race by the color of one person's skin,
Very good point, but that's how it's basically handled in the US.
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KR811
> The only commonalities
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Islam#Similarities_between_Muslims_and_Mormons:
"• A founding prophet who received visits from an angel, leading to revelation of a book of scripture;[14]
• A founding prophet whose first wife was older than himself;
• A founding prophet who practiced and preached polygamy;[15]
• A division of the religion into a minimum of two parties after the death of the founding prophet, with one party claiming that leadership should continue through the prophet's descendants, and the other party rejecting this idea;[16]
• Special reverence for, though not worship of, their founding prophet;
Belief that their faith represents the genuine, original religion of Adam, and of all true prophets thereafter;
• Belief that the text of the Bible, as presently constituted, has been adulterated from its original form;[17]
• Assertions that modern Christianity does not conform to the original religion taught by Jesus Christ;
• Rejection of the Christian doctrines of Original Sin and the Trinity;[18]
• […]"
Also: "Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of Mormonism, was referred to as "the modern Mahomet" by the New York Herald"
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ApexPredator
If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
(Exodus 21)
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
(Leviticus 25)
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St3a1thsniper32
> DNA can't change unless a mutation happens
There is also recombination but I will ignore that for now. What's your point with that?
> but we have no proof of these so called missing links
Of course we do have lots of evidence, e.g. fossils: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx
Also, we have evidence directly in the DNA, in humans e.g. with fused chromosome 2.
> Mutation are 97% of the time harmful to the thing it happens to.
Most BS stat if I have ever seen one, and I have seen 23.54% of all stats. :P
Truth is, most simple mutations are actually neutral.
> Look at Down Syndrome in humans for example.
That's caused by chromosome 21 being there thrice, but again, I don't want to be to nit-picky. Just let me tell you that it's a different kind of error compared to certain base pairs simply changing (what people normally think of), but since such chances also play a role (even more so in plants) I am going to let it slide.
> These creatures would have to live long enough to reproduce and pass on this so called advantage to their offspring and that offspring reproduces and so on.
Yes, so? If there is a selection advantage (can be quite small BTW) then that feature or variation is going to take over the gene pool in the long run, it becomes the new norm.
> Your argument is that these changes add up over time and millions of years later that animal becomes an entirely new animal.
Not necessary millions of years BTW, just enough for speciation to happen (new species is one that can't reliably create viable offspring with another in a very simplified definition for animals). We can observe it with flies in a lab: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation#Artificial_speciation
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St3a1thsniper32
> Your "sources" are from wikipedia, which is one of the most unreliable sources you could have chose.
Ah, I see, you're an academic and a connoisseur of good sources. Great, I love like-minded people, so then I am going to give you some in your prefered format:
• Holtz, Thomas, Jr. (1995). "Archaeopteryxs Relationship With Modern Birds". Journal of Dinosaur Paleontology. Archived from the original on 2007-02-09. Retrieved 2007-03-01.
• Erickson, Gregory M.; Rauhut, Oliver W. M.; Zhou, Zhonghe; Turner, Alan H.; Inouye, Brian D.; Hu, Dongyu; Norell, Mark A. (2009). Desalle, Robert, ed. "Was Dinosaurian Physiology Inherited by Birds? Reconciling Slow Growth in Archaeopteryx". PLoS ONE 4 (10): e7390. Bibcode:2009PLoSO...4.7390E. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0007390. PMC 2756958. PMID 19816582
• Feo, Teresa J.; Field, Daniel J.; Prum, Richard O. (2015-03-22). "Barb geometry of asymmetrical feathers reveals a transitional morphology in the evolution of avian flight". Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B: Biological Sciences 282 (1803): 20142864. doi:10.1098/rspb.2014.2864. ISSN 0962-8452. PMC 4345455. PMID 25673687.
• L. M. Chiappe; L. M. Witme, eds. (2002). Mesozoic birds: above the heads of dinosaurs. Berkeley and Los Angeles, California: University of California Press. p. 151. ISBN 0-520-20094-2
• A. Feduccia (1996). The Origin and Evolution of Birds. Yale University Press, New Haven. ISBN 0-300-06460-8
These papers/books should be easily accessible from your university LAN/VPN. What do you think of them?
> You've seen 23.54% of all stats XD
I'm glad you like it. I came up with that number through pretty much the same means as you.
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Groth1175 Those damn Potawatomi (upper Mississippi native Americans), only they believe they are made from clay baked just right! >:O
from http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSPotawatomi.html
Earthmaker made the world with trees and fields, with rivers, lakes, and springs, and with hills and valleys. It was beautiful. However, there weren't any humans, and so one day he decided to make some.
He scooped out a hole in a stream bank and lined the hole with stones to make a hearth, and he built a fire there. Then he took some clay and made a small figure that he put in the hearth. While it baked, he took some twigs and made tongs. When he pulled the figure out of the fire and had let it cool, he moved its limbs and breathed life into it, and it walked away. Earthmaker nonetheless realized that it was only half-baked. That figure became the white people.
Earthmaker decided to try again, and so he made another figure and put it on the hearth. This time he took a nap under a tree while the figure baked, and he slept longer than he intended. When he pulled the second figure out of the fire and had let it cool, he moved its limbs and breathed life into it, and it walked away. Earthmaker realized that this figure was overbaked, and it became the black people.
Earthmaker decided to try one more time. He cleaned the ashes out of the hearth and built a new fire. Then he scooped up some clay and cleaned it of any twigs or leaves, so that it was pure. He made a little figure and put it on the hearth, and this time he sat by the hearth and watched carefully as the figure baked. When this figure was done, he pulled it out of the fire and let it cool. Then he moved its limbs and breathed life into it, and it walked away. This figure was baked just right, and it became the red people.
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*****
How about a scientific publication instead of a 90s-style web page (seriously my eyes start to bleed looking at it)?
Stallings et al. (2005) reported that, in Tanzanian women, the risk of HIV among women who had undergone FGC was roughly half that of women who had not; the association remained significant after adjusting for region, household wealth, age, lifetime partners, union status, and recent ulcer.
Paper in question: Stallings RY, Karugendo E. Female circumcision and HIV infection in Tanzania: for better or for worse? Presented at the Third Annual International Aids Society Conference on HIV Pathogenesis and Treatment, Rio de Janeiro, 24-27 July 2005.
http://www.iasociety.org/Default.aspx?pageId=11&abstractId=2177677
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Jamal Hill
> Science is an extremely vague, vague explanation of whats really going on around us,
First of all, I would hardly use "science" as a noun, but OK I'll assume you wrote "the results of research using the scientific method" instead. I don't know what you consider "vague", especially in relation to other explanation methods. Care to explain?
> and it's subject to constant self correction
That's a good thing, don't you think?
> What is it that animates your lump of matter?
Matter is animated all the time, or more precisely all matter is animated, just some is, in a clump, somewhat self-replicaticative, some even "sentient"…
> Are bodies merely an antennae, by which we receive consciousness,
The brain and its state is part of the body, so no.
> or are we individual souls
Soul is a dated concept explaining mostly the psyche of a person from a black-box perspective, i.e. from the outside without looking or understanding the inside much (i.e. brain chemistry, naturally since it predates all this).
> Why cant we just put together a hodgepodge of body parts, like Frankenstein, and make it live?
Because that would be practically probably impossible, especially compared to e.g. cloning, have the body create itself from a basis (high concerning [information] entropy). Of course there is also the transplantation medicines that shows that shows that not every body part of ours is inherently ours.
> I've read the Bible several times.
So? What about the Quran, the Books or Mormon, the Hindu stuff, the amazing Spiderman… ?
> What do you think will happen?
Most often not much different stuff than yesterday.
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*****
So you are saying in all these cases it referred to equipment/functionality in the following essay from 1788?
"THE power of regulating the militia, and of commanding its services in times of insurrection and invasion are natural incidents to the duties of superintending the common defense, and of watching over the internal peace of the Confederacy.
It requires no skill in the science of war to discern that uniformity in the organization and discipline of the militia would be attended with the most beneficial effects, whenever they were called into service for the public defense [conscription]. […] This desirable uniformity can only be accomplished by confiding the regulation of the militia to the direction of the national authority."
"If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security."
"By a curious refinement upon the spirit of republican jealousy, we are even taught to apprehend danger from the militia itself, in the hands of the federal government. It is observed that select corps may be formed, composed of the young and ardent, who may be rendered subservient to the views of arbitrary power. What plan for the regulation of the militia may be pursued by the national government, is impossible to be foreseen."
" What reasonable cause of apprehension can be inferred from a power in the Union to prescribe regulations for the militia, and to command its services when necessary, while the particular States are to have the SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE APPOINTMENT OF THE OFFICERS? If it were possible seriously to indulge a jealousy of the militia upon any conceivable establishment under the federal government, the circumstance of the officers being in the appointment of the States ought at once to extinguish it. There can be no doubt that this circumstance will always secure to them a preponderating influence over the militia."
"To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss."
"What reasonable cause of apprehension can be inferred from a power in the Union to prescribe regulations for the militia, and to command its services when necessary, while the particular States are to have the SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE APPOINTMENT OF THE OFFICERS?"
All quotes from Federalist paper 29 by Alexander Hamilton.
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GreyFox785
> so to speak. If it wasn't religion, it would be something else, you know?
I agree to some extend, ideologies in general can be very bad, especially if they are quite irrational. And that's the exact reason why many religions are especially problematic, they often call for unconditional obeying and don't allow for questioning.
> Maybe if one day we do phase religion and nationalism and all that out of society we'll have long brutal wars and commit grave atrocities based on whether we think the cat is alive or dead inside the box before we open it.
See but you would still have to have justifications for those conflicts. Justification that sound somewhat sound. Ideologies that appeal to the supernatural like religions do are perfect for this, doesn't mean you can't have similar conflicts about e.g. communism but IMHO it's simply less likely going to happen since you are going to have much more people questioning the motives.
> Also, I feel like average people who have some discretion about religion, which is a lot of people, are often overshadowed by the fewer radicals among them.
Totally agree, nevertheless I think you have to look at it population-wise. Add religion to a population and look at the total behavior. Maybe it's overall better, maybe it's overall worse, maybe it's insignificant either way. In any case it doesn't mean that the effects apply to every single individual. If religion causes freaks to freak out it's bad even when the majority of people stay the same.
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Ahmed Mohamed
Are you claiming free will is stronger than the power of Allah, i.e. it trumps it? Nah, you can't claim that, Allah controls everything, this would include the will of all people, and on top of that he made it that way from the moment he created everything with full knowledge of the future.
Concerning the table now, if I create a table that is my limb in the sense I described before, sure it's part of me, I have full control over it and everything, it's no different than any of my limbs, there is no reasonable distinction to be made. And additionally if you believe Allah created everything which means every thing, of course you have to believe he created himself, it's only consistent.
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*****
> I don't define a religion by its belivers
A religion (or more specifically a certain interpretation/idea) without believers (now or in the past) might as well not exist. Religion is about ideas in heads of people and the ensuing human behavior/interaction, it does not reasonably exist on its own, just like an ideology can't exist on its own. But OK, that's kinda philosophical, let's replace "religion" with "religious ideas" for now.
> Muslims of 900 are different from muslims of 2014 .
Exactly.
> I don't say they are worse
Neither do I, but I point was that religious ideas change, they aren't static.
> If everybody understood the real meaning of Quran. That;s the reason why there are scholars trying to make it easy for most muslims to undestand it
If you believe an almighty being made the Quran come into existence then it must be the will of the being that it's not understood without the help of scholars, in fact I see this kind of a flaw in that alleged "perfect" book, it's no different than other books in that regard.
> knowing that they were the best of all in poetry
First time I hear that, but OK.
> the problem is that people couldn't agree what it means
Exactly, that makes it a matter of interpretation. And when an interpretation becomes more popular than another at a certain time then you could say the "religion" changes, not the texts, but the idea about what this religion constitutes in the minds of the people and how the believers behave.
People from other religion might make the same argument you did in claiming that their "religion" itself doesn't change and that's it's just the interpretations of people that do.
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DuelScreen
> There is historical evidence that the ancient Israelites, Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, etc. did exist and did inhabit the lands of the middle east. We have overwhelming archaeological evidence for that.
Spider-Man comics describe New York, does that mean Spider Man exists?
> There is a verse in the Psalms that speaks of the "circle" of the earth long before Columbus sailed the globe, before the Chinese built their grand sailing ships.
Huh? That the earth is round was known loooooong before Columbus,
> Why? If his resurrection was a human invention, surely he would have revealed himself first to men, not women.
Maybe that's what they want you to think… :->
Seriously, this type of thinking I just know of conspiracy theorists.
> It has been observed in modern humans when they are under extreme stress such as when they are facing their own death as Jesus certainly was
Let's assume that's true, does it make the Jesus figure any more of a god?
Weak arguments, are you even trying?
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Khalid Sulami
> Well, I said Musilms. However, you're saying "despite following a religion"
Oops, I should've written "despite being Muslims" but in my head I meant it in a more general sense which I normally prefer to talk about. In fact you one general refute points in the form of "not all people with property X are bad" by replying "OK, but what I am interested in whether people with X are statistically worse than the rest, not all people being bad is something that applies already to all people in general."
> So now I consider my old mother/father/brothers/sisters and the rest of 1.6 billion not Muslims based on your opinion, sense we don't believe in such horrific acts?
Let me put it this way in the sense of an unrealistic thought experiment experiment: You take a certain amount of people, split them into two halves, you add religion X to one group and you leave the other without any religion (that's our control group then) and then you will see what effect X has on them. Maybe some individuals will behave better with it, maybe some worse, very likely most will behave the same. The question then is what their behavior in total is, so we can form a statement about the effect of X which could be one of the following three:
(1) X has no significant effect.
(2) X makes a population behave worse. (Note that this does not mean that it applies to every single individual in it).
(3) X makes a population behave better. (Again not every single individual.)
Option (2) might apply and your dad could be still be good persons anyway (which could have to do with reasons like culture and the particular school of Islam they are following).
> I've written, your media is feeding your minds with "0" facts about ISLAM and Muslims.
The polls seem genuine though.
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bulbinking
> Well, you certainly aren't a biologist, or geneticist, or even a medical doctor...or a forensics scientist......
I bet not even in the US all but the last learn about some "race" classification, because there isn't the one holy absolute one. If there was one you surely could tell me how many "races" exactly there are, right? ;)
> its pretty much universally understood
> universally
LOL, at most it's understood as
• a subjective, arbitrary, non-standardized classification in some parts of the world (e.g. the US where AFAIK police will tick on their forms what race a suspect/etc. belongs to from his/her looks)
• an old word for "ethnic group" which itself a wibly-wobbly term but at least it's clear that it's not biology but rather has to do with identity, culture and such bleh
• pseudoscience from the 19th century
> Certain genetic traits are either more strongly linked, or exclusively linked to certain groups of people. Period.
Like those with and those with or without lactose intolerance, recessive sickle-cell disease, susceptibility to lupus, right? Nope, you arbitrarily choose some visible traits e.g. the the amount of melanin in the other skin and similarly for your classification. It's arbitrary, why not the earlobes? Did you notice they are fused in some people? :->
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YamiShadow Kitty
> Why should we care about civil society if people aren't accountable for what they do?
We should care because we want a society we feel better in.
> would you not say that evolution should probably cull it over the following generations?
If there is at least some selective pressure/advantage, sure.
> We can't simply live by instinct.
Depending on how you define instinct I might argue that we pretty much are, even when we are behaving rationally.
> Without free will, there is no such thing as accountability, as you grant.
Do I? I really don't remember doing so. I am just saying there is no absolute accountability. It is up to us and the goals we want to achieve.
> What follows from this is that there is also no necessity of holding people accountable
There is a necessity in order to have a better society.
> To do so would be like eating, if there were no physiological or taste based need.
People want to feel better, like they do in a better society.
> What you need to do is justify the claim that we can keep something just because it's practical or pragmatic. Under what grounds and for what reasons?
Under "what grounds and for what reasons" should a believer strive for the carrot (heaven) instead of the stick (hell)? In order to feel better. Same goes for why we should strive for a better society, in order to feel better.
> We don't just lose accountability with causal determinism, but also any notion of values in an overarching sense.
What is "values in an overarching sense" even supposed to mean?
> Why should we even CARE about the fact that someone was raped, or murdered?
Because if we do and act correctly then in the end it leads to a better society.
> but it's not like she had a choice anyways.
In a society with accountability it's less likely, that's what should count.
> Murder supposes an intentional act. If we aren't responsible for what we do, how can we do something "intentionally"?
We should be held responsible for what we do in order to get a better society. (BTW, I can't stop thinking about how this discussion would go if you were talking to a Calvinists; if I remember correctly they conclude determinism from their belief that god is almighty [omnipotent] and thus all-knowing [omniscient] and therefore knew all outcomes when he created everything while having the power to choose any other outcome with no outcome being impossible for him because of his omnipotence. By this he predetermined all outcomes including every outcome of our thinking.)
> Why on earth should we punish both?
We shouldn't, it would lead to a worse society. (I know I am starting to sound like a robot but it's fun how the pragmatic/utilitarian approach to things is always possible, I still haven't seen you present good arguments against it.)
BTW, I can't remember that I really argued against "free will", normally I will only argue for determinism (except when "determinism" is defined as solely what we pesky humans can "determine" about previous events) and have a discussion about the definition of "free will" where I would then present my definition of free will as something describing a feeling or state of mind rather than an absolute concept (works quite well unlike when people try to define the "absolute free" where you can always poke holes into it, try it yourself).
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*****
> The Bible does condone slavery.
That's your interpretation, to me Exodus 21 and Leviticus 19 and 25 are pretty clear in their support of slavery (not even mentioning the numerous stories involving virgin war brides). Inb4, the NT also does a bad job at being clearly against it, Slaves are instructed to be obedient to their masters and there is the parable of the faithful servant…
> You work at a job?
I talk about owning people. I am sure you don't equate these things when you had a choice between being a slave and working a job…
> Or why would it say in the 7th year they could go freely, without paying anything?
That's not true for all slaves. You do realize a lot of distinctions are made, e.g. whether someone is an Israelite or not? Whether he married and got children while enslaved? Whether bought from another nation or not? And don't even get me started on gender…
I hope you are just being ignorant and not disingenuous.
BTW, don't get me wrong, I am happy that you are following a reformist interpretation. Reformism is important, in Islam, just like in Judaism, Christianity and Mormonism. And latter has the nifty benefit that their "pope" can't just update the official interpretation but also the articles of faith themselves, now blacks can enter their holy sites as well! So once reformists like her become quite popular their pope will get suddenly get a holy inspiration.
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@Kirbynessness God is not a dick, …garble… he loves us and he knows what is best for us which he tells us through our pastors and God can control everything therefore everything is according to God's plan, …garble, garble… but because of our inferior mind, although created in God's image we can never understand God, …garble, garble… he works in mysterious ways, …garble, garble… is above logic, garble, the clay should not question the potter, …garble, garble, garble, garble…
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… La Réunion, French Guiana, Martinique, Guadeloupe, Saint-Martin and Saint-Barthélemy) while in other cases territories associated with member states are not part of the EU (e.g. Greenland, the Faroe Islands, most territories associated to the United Kingdom, Aruba, the Netherlands Antilles, Mayotte, French Polynesia, Wallis and Futuna, or New Caledonia)."
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Nope, now you got it way wrong, first of all, 0^0 is not always defined and if it is then it's 1 (a non-positive number would break a lot) but that plays no role here, the base is 2.
Again, each finger up counts as 2^n where n is the index of the finger starting with 0 (2, because 2 is the base here, like 10 in our decimal system). You might choose to offset it like you wish but that you will always just be able to display 2^10 numbers, e.g. 0...1023, 1...1024, 2...1025, -1...1022, …
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Would you give Muslims a chance and visit a mosque for a while, or Hindus and visit their temples, or Mithra cult followers and visit their secret underground meeting places…?
Look, apparently you live in a bubble where you believe your religion is the self-evident truth, just like what a Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, communist, scientologist, … might believe of his/her religion/ideology. Apart from naming and holy books I see no difference so I guess you are the same, would you be OK with that?
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