Comments by "Titanium Rain" (@ChucksSEADnDEAD) on "The Pathetic Economy Of North Korea" video.
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@cageybee7221 >"production, it's the profits" - okay I'm not a native English speaker so to me "productivity" inherently implies that what you're doing is "productive". If you're producing something that doesn't generate profit, you're not being productive. I was not considering that it could be different in English.
>"physical resource production and goods manufacturing of their economy in non-financial terms" - but that's a non-starter because you don't know how "productive" aka how "profitable" your production is.
"it is the number the state used to plan it's economy" - yeah and it was a terrible system.
>"yes i am asking for a source for that, you still haven't provided any" - my dude you're asking me to go back and track down a historical event I know from the top of my head, that is widely known, that I don't exactly remember where I read and I can't link to anything affiliated with the US.
I wasted 30 min of my life and I found it on "Origins of North Korea's Juche: Colonialism, War, and Development" by Chae-jŏng Sŏ, Jae-Jung Suh, Page 141. It describes the overuse of fertilizers and lack of crop rotation that lead to the soils degrading.
And you're gonna tell me they're US/South Korean pawns anyway.
>"by truck (really obvious and totally out of the question)" - so no trucks ever cross the China/Korean border?
>"they are too heavy for cargo planes" - the wonderful thing about mechanical objects is that they're often able to be dismantled. Also, you don't need the whole rocket to reverse engineer it.
>"ukraine could not have given them to north korea if they wanted to." - and the Koreans couldn't have made such progress in such short time if they wanted to.
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@cageybee7221 you corrected me, and now you're correcting me for correcting myself. Bah!
"not even know what production is" - I wasn't talking about production but PRODUCTIVITY. Production can be unproductive.
"you can easily measure productivity without profit. how much goods are being produced, what is the rate they are being produced, and how much is wasted" - not really. The Soviet Gosplan had no fucking idea what they were doing because they couldn't accurately gauge what was being wasted, because the recipients of resources could not waste time going back and forth and simply traded goods with each other. Another issue is that without profit or loss, you cannot even tell what is being wasted. Production can be "unproductive" and you don't actually know it because everything looks right in the chart.
"it was not a terrible system" - it was, it lead to constant shortages, they were hindered by ideological bias, and pressure to comply with projections lead to reports using falsified data which further caused more problems down the line as the central planning was more and more detached from reality.
"it took russia from a feudal agricultural backwater centuries behind the rest of the world" - but it didn't. This is the same shit as Nazi Germany, everyone thinks Hitler saved Germany from the economic recession and whatnot. The fact is that he created an economic bubble that would plunge Germany into a worse crisis and forced him to go to war. When you control a government, and there's no way to go but up, you can use the force and violence of the state to "do things". So the argument that the Soviets "did things" doesn't actually prove that the Gosplan was working right because it wasn't.
"it took most capitalist nations over 100 years to do the same" - because others had to actually develop the technology over time, the Soviets imported foreign technology and put it to work so they could make their own. Weird analogy, but for example Beretta had been in the firearms business since the 1500s. What you're saying is like claiming that Beretta took almost 500 years to come up with the Beretta 92 (the former United States service pistol and famous for all the 1980's police movies like Lethal Weapon) and Gaston Glock only took a year to make his Glock 17. Same as the human dream of "heavier than air" flight requiring hundreds of years until the Wright brothers came along, and then a couple of decades later there were teams of engineers who could design, prototype and test a new airplane in a matter of months.
"that is by definition not terrible" - because you're talking about different things. If you have control of the state, you can use your budget to buy technology and put your educated people through college to make more of that technology on your own. That's not the same thing as trying to plan an economy without profit signals.
Point the guns, collect money, spend that money = easy.
Figure out where resources need to go when you're not sure you're making a profit or a loss = complete clusterfuck.
Can't conflate the two.
"never heard of this soil issue" - "Regular application of large amounts of fertilizer, combined with the lack of crop rotation or incorporation of crop residue into the soil, greatly degraded the soil’s fertility." "Decades of over-fertilization have rendered the soil acidic and with low organic matter." - https://www.38north.org/2010/05/why-north-korea-could-feed-itself/
"In a 1991 "advisory note" addressing the North Korean economy for the years 1992-96, the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), the only international agency resident in P'yongyang, warned that the practice of intensive chemicalization has led to land degradation--that is, declining soil fertility, falling organic matter content, erosion and soil acidification, and water pollution, with resulting environmental damage." - http://countrystudies.us/north-korea/49.htm
"Soil fertility in many areas was trashed by decades of overuse of chemical fertilisers, up to the late 1980s. Yields still suffer." - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/15/north-korea-farmers-pressure-feed-nation-kim-jong-un
"In the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK), soil fertility decline is a major factor that prevents the national grain production goal from being realised. The strategic use of legume-based pasture leys as rotations in intensive single and double cropping systems has proven to be a sound, low-cost means to boost soil fertility in other parts of northeast Asia. However, using pasture species in this way is a new technology in DPRK and there is some reluctance by cooperative farm managers to devote any of their cropland to ley pastures, irrespective of soil condition, because of a fear of failure to meet grain production targets set by the Government." - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223561605_Strategies_to_improve_cropland_soils_in_North_Korea_using_pasture_leys
"During the 1970s and 1980s, North Korea experienced
great success in agriculture as a result of high-density planting
and extensive use of fertilizers. These methods however, proved
to be detrimental to the natural soil balance and subsequently
brought on such negative side effects as soil fertility deterioration.
International organizations have urged North Korea to decrease its
planting density and use less fertilizer to restore soil balance. " - https://ageconsearch.umn.edu/record/288201/files/6.pdf
"But by 1987, food production started to decline as the
country’s soils began to collapse after decades of industrial agriculture on often marginal lands." - https://foodfirst.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/PB11-Famine-in-North-Korea-Christine-Ahn.pdf
"The area under cereals covers over 80 percent of Korea's arable land. The limited availability of arable land and the government policy of food grain self - sufficiency has led DPR Korea to opt for high intensity agriculture. Soils are poor (pH 5 to 7, with organic matter only at 0.5 to 1.5 percent) - and the risk of erosion is high in uplands." - http://www.fao.org/3/ac623e/ac623e0e.htm
"North Korea stresses that this is essential to avoid further soil acidification caused by the excessive application of chemical fertilizers."
"The prevailing system, in which a single crop of rice is grown in paddy fields and a single crop of maize in the uplands, is now being revised, and double cropping is recommended. Crop rotation has the advantage of improved fertility for soils depleted by monoculture, as well as higher total yields per unit of land."
"Third, North Korean authorities ordered farmers to cut down perennial plants such as pine trees on mountain slopes, and plant corn in their place. This method was successful at first, but corn production required a great deal of fertilizer. The rugged terrain also meant that a large labor input was needed to harvest the corn and transport it to towns. The really damaging result was that as trees were cut, there were landslides which destroyed not only the upland terraces but covered fertile lowlands in sand and rock. Forest clearance and the construction of terraces were the main cause of the floods in 1995 and 1996." - http://www.fftc.agnet.org/library.php?func=view&id=20110726131553
I'm a complete layman and I know about the North Korean soil issue.
"STILL haven't provided an actual source for it" - I DID YOU ABSOLUTE LIAR. READ MY PREVIOUS COMMENT AGAIN. "Origins of North Korea's Juche: Colonialism, War, and Development" by Chae-jŏng Sŏ, Jae-Jung Suh, Page 141
"you mentioned you couldn't find a single non-US backed source" - NO I SAID THAT ACCORDING TO YOUR RULES I CAN'T LINK ANYTHING RELATED TO THE US SO I'M POINTING HOW THE DIFFICULTY IN TRYING TO REMEMBER IF A SOURCE I DON'T REMEMBER IS IN ANY WAY AFFILIATED WITH THE US
GOD YOU PEOPLE ARE SERIOUSLY DIFFICULT TO TALK TO WHEN YOU'RE ALL WILLING TO PULL AT ANY THREAD TO SEE IF IT UNRAVELS
"that truck would have to go through russia and be put on a train to north korea, meaning it would have to cross hundreds of miles through one of the most corrupt nations in the world and somehow not be stolen." - lol so you went from "it couldn't be done because it's illegal" to "those places are so used to illegal shit it would be stolen". I couldn't give less of a shit where it came from but there's one good side to corruption - you know you can pay people off to make shit go through. The fact is that they're using a design that isn't theirs.
"clearly, north korea did make such progress in such a short time because they have the bomb now. you are just denying reality at this point." - again, you're unable to argue so you'll strawman everything I say to make it seem like I said something else.
Here's a good explanation of the NK rocketry design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UieXfhcmkpQ
Either way, you accused me of not providing a source. Either you're not paying attention, or lying. It's not like I have a scoreboard for arguments or anything, but even you need to recognize that if you need to lie about my comments and strawman me it means you're losing. I expect better, no strawman arguments from now on, please.
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