Comments by "TheEyeTeaMan" (@TheEyeTeaMan) on "Motherboard"
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what dies first in a brushless motor? The coils? the magnets? the leads? or the mechanical bits as in the bearings? I can guarantee you it is not the electronics.
with proper maintenance and replacement of worn parts and adjusting out of alignment parts yes you can keep a mechanical device going forever. with the same you can keep an electronic device going forever as well. Typically people do not do maintenance on electronic devices and simply toss them when they no longer work quite right. However we have complicated electronics that are 110 years old and still operational. we have the Oxford Bell that has been running constantly for 177 years without any maintenance. it has run more than 11,171,161,008 times I doubt you will have a working mechanical action after that many shots over 177 years and no maintenance beyond swapping the barrel That is basically firing 2 shots per second over 177 years.
I would like you to show me something that is mechanical that still works, and has had no additional maintenance for 177 years while being used non stop (1.55 million hours of runtime). heck show me something that has been working non stop for 100 years that hasn't required maintenance for that long (876 thousand hours of runtime).
Please tell me how a completely sealed solid state electronic component can fail? It will not oxidise, there isn't any mechanical wear, if designed for reliability there will be near 0 heat, the doping on chips will not move, so unless the part wasn't assembled properly and installed properly how is it going to break? even the batteries in the Oxford bell are still working fine and still have charge and are 177 years old.
The only reason consumer grade electronics are "unreliable" is because they are made to last only 2-5 years since most people will be tossing it way before then. This means cheap electronics will not have sealed components and assembly will be a little more lax and heat management will not be as much of a concern. But electronics made to be reliable stay reliable for a very very very long time with near 0 maintenance. there are plenty of examples of 50 year old+ computers that are still running and have had no maintenance beyond occasional dusting, and refreshing, or updating code.
You are talking to someone who owns and runs an IT consulting firm. actually it is getting harder and harder to learn how to hack things because the security keeps increasing. What is happening is it is becoming more mainstream and more people know at least a little bit of something about security. The reason for this is in today's world everything is connected. It was way way way easier to hack into systems 30 years ago than it is now. It was also virtually unknown how hacking could generate money and crime was slow to pick up hacking for profit. Instead you had enthusiasts laughing their asses off at all the stupid users that don't know how to disable their "virus" they made many of which were mostly pranks. Also there is actually less and less holes to exploit each year. The way you infect a computer is you are granted access to it by the user. This isn't a security hole you are simply telling the computer its ok to run this piece of code. And you will happily play your candy crush clone and have no clue you have been bugged and all your personal data copied. The holes are not in the software the holes are in the users that don't know what they are doing. Yes picking locks takes skill I have had to do that many many times on server cages and server faceplates and a few times just to get into the server room. Hacking also takes quite a bit of skill and knowledge unless you are going to bumble it up and get caught.
But why is hacking even in this conversation at all? who is going to steal your gun, disassemble it, reflash or replace the chip or board, put the gun back where you were keeping it, and then break in to rob you? That seems a little Rube Goldbergesque to me just to make sure your gun won't fire. I guess it may be worth it to someone just to say "HaHa! You can't shoot me I'm the gingerbread man" or something else equally ridiculous.
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@druidicrifleman ... what dies first in a brushless motor? The coils? the magnets? the leads? or the mechanical bits as in the bearings? I can guarantee you it is not the electronics.
with proper maintenance and replacement of worn parts and adjusting out of alignment parts yes you can keep a mechanical device going forever. with the same you can keep an electronic device going forever as well. Typically people do not do maintenance on electronic devices and simply toss them when they no longer work quite right. However we have complicated electronics that are 110 years old and still operational. we have the Oxford Bell that has been running constantly for 177 years without any maintenance. it has run more than 11,171,161,008 times I doubt you will have a working mechanical action after that many shots over 177 years and no maintenance beyond swapping the barrel That is basically firing 2 shots per second over 177 years.
I would like you to show me something that is mechanical that still works, and has had no additional maintenance for 177 years while being used non stop (1.55 million hours of runtime). heck show me something that has been working non stop for 100 years that hasn't required maintenance for that long (876 thousand hours of runtime).
Please tell me how a completely sealed solid state electronic component can fail? It will not oxidise, there isn't any mechanical wear, if designed for reliability there will be near 0 heat, the doping on chips will not move, so unless the part wasn't assembled properly and installed properly how is it going to break? even the batteries in the Oxford bell are still working fine and still have charge and are 177 years old.
The only reason consumer grade electronics are "unreliable" is because they are made to last only 2-5 years since most people will be tossing it way before then. This means cheap electronics will not have sealed components and assembly will be a little more lax and heat management will not be as much of a concern. But electronics made to be reliable stay reliable for a very very very long time with near 0 maintenance. there are plenty of examples of 50 year old+ computers that are still running and have had no maintenance beyond occasional dusting, and refreshing, or updating code.
You are talking to someone who owns and runs an IT consulting firm. actually it is getting harder and harder to learn how to hack things because the security keeps increasing. What is happening is it is becoming more mainstream and more people know at least a little bit of something about security. The reason for this is in today's world everything is connected. It was way way way easier to hack into systems 30 years ago than it is now. It was also virtually unknown how hacking could generate money and crime was slow to pick up hacking for profit. Instead you had enthusiasts laughing their asses off at all the stupid users that don't know how to disable their "virus" they made many of which were mostly pranks. Also there is actually less and less holes to exploit each year. The way you infect a computer is you are granted access to it by the user. This isn't a security hole you are simply telling the computer its ok to run this piece of code. And you will happily play your candy crush clone and have no clue you have been bugged and all your personal data copied. The holes are not in the software the holes are in the users that don't know what they are doing. Yes picking locks takes skill I have had to do that many many times on server cages and server faceplates and a few times just to get into the server room. Hacking also takes quite a bit of skill and knowledge unless you are going to bumble it up and get caught.
But why is hacking even in this conversation at all? who is going to steal your gun, disassemble it, reflash or replace the chip or board, put the gun back where you were keeping it, and then break in to rob you? That seems a little Rube Goldbergesque to me just to make sure your gun won't fire. I guess it may be worth it to someone just to say "HaHa! You can't shoot me I'm the gingerbread man" or something else equally ridiculous.
since you smartly brought up vibrations and corrosive materials and heat I will add to this about those
Heat:
great subject. I am pretty sure you can hold onto the gun without frying your hands so we can now skip this.
vibration
ok and? there are plenty of circuits made that can withstand that kind of vibration theoretically forever. if it is made with all through hole components on a quality board and sealed in a good resin this will not be a problem
corrosion
if it is properly sealed this will not be a problem
failure if left alone without charging:
there isn't an issue here. you simply design the system to lock while actively being powered and a spring will unlock it when not powered or being used by the owner. This can be as simple as a spring loaded solenoid that moves a locking pin. This would assume the action is still fully mechanical and the lock is the only electronic part
electronic firing has failed
I am pretty sure the company behind metal storm would disagree with you on that.
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@matches
you do understand how simple guns actually are right? the point is simplicity and that is what the bell shows as well and in fact it is not as simple as a gun there is quite a bit going on there that has to all work correctly or it fails. just because it never needs any more work and will run forever doesn't mean it is simple.
no you associated the bell with 110 years rather than 177 which obviously meant that there was something else that has lasted quite a significantly long time with relatively little maintenance. so no my reading comprehension has nothing to do with your reading comprehension.
That longest running clock is not hermetically sealed and it has had periodic maintenance and besides there are none of them that have been going constantly without human interruption for more than a couple dozen years. ... now the longest running clock didn't say oil I assumed that but it did say it has been periodically worked on for maintenance.
Also you are getting a little testy? interesting.
Great you have one and it is still running for quite a few years that is excellent. Congratulations. I have 3 computers sitting around here that work just fine from that time period and haven't needed to do anything to them to keep them going.
actually it still is if it wasn't it would not get going again afterwards. if the atmospheric clock needs a nudge when this happens then that would be stopped. so yes it has been running continuously without intervention
ok so if guns can screw up on their own because of mechanical issues why would you not replace many moving parts with solid state parts that don't move, don't bind, and don't wear out?
well yeah it should a lightning strike to an electronic action gun would do nothing to the electronics same reason airplanes dont fall out of the sky when getting struck. I would expect a mechanical one to be fine as well. the person however might not be so fine, yes people do survive but not always and possibly not usually but I dont have the numbers of deaths vs survivals.
a plane is not actually insulated and shielded any more than your normal computer. the skin of the aircraft acts as a faraday cage the gun body would do the same for the controller board. The lightning charge will pass around the outside taking the quickest path to ground which will be through the persons body. this is only if they were holding the firearm above their head else their head would have become the more likely target most likely. but again a working gun in that case would be the least of my worries.
sure why not? its not like the circuit is going to need much power to run and most of the time it will be off anyway. heck the simple act of picking it up could run an action like some watches have which can charge a capacitor and run the circuit.
wait you don't "trouble shoot" (check them out and make sure all is in order) your guns before using them? really? I could have sworn you should perform regular maintenance on your gun. man you mean I never need oil for mine? come on man its called maintenance everyone that is a proper gun owner keeps their gun checked and in working order.
you already put your life in the hands of digital systems every single day in much much more life threatening situations then a possible gun fight. Your car is probably drive by wire which means the throttle could get stuck wide open, the airplane you fly on is completely fly by wire. I don't think there are any modern commercial air liners that have even a backup hydraulic system connected to the cockpit.
so in short you are entrusting your life to a multitude of hazard many times per day and the only thing between you and disaster is a small little controller board.
have you ever updated your cars windshield wiper controller? or maybe the computer that controls your air conditioning and heated seats to keep them at a proper level? Bot of these systems are closed and disconnected and unless you pull the modules out then fiddle with them in a physical manner you will not be able to hack them.
Hacking isn't magic if you cant communicate with the thing you are hacking then you cannot hack it. if this is the case you can be reasonably lax on security, not that you should.
and if it works why are you trying to patch it? if it does need updating then you go to a gunshop then update it with new owner information.
sure software problems do exist but for a system as simple as pull trigger shoot there isn't much programming at all on it to go wrong. most of it will be a regular hard wire circuit with the added interrupt of whatever security is in there. if that interrupt fails (gets strange data, finds corruption on the chip, errors out in some way) it will bypass the security check and that means as long as you have the safety off it will fire. Going back to the airplane scenario this is what happens when the flight computer errors out it gets bypassed and the signals from the controls go directly to the solenoids.
surgically attached is definitely an option, but no there are many different ways of making it work. it could take a voice command, it could take a specific motion, it could take your drivers license, you could spit on it and have it register if that matches your previous spits, it could have a simple button combo. and if it does have an rf receiver so what it is still not hackable but that still isn't the point. this isn't to deter thefts and as I said above if it gets strange garbled signal it will bypass the security check and let you fire it so even if they jam it all that will do is unlock it. It is highly unlikely a kid is going to be jamming a signal to a gun just to go play cops and robbers with the neighbors kid. if the kid is doing that then it is probably for a reason.
Heck you could have several different types of measures to get your security clearance into the gun especially if you didn't want the chip to bypass when it errors out.
Also note that erroring out and getting garbled signals is not the same as getting signals that do not match. in this case it will remain locked. That bypass is only if the chip malfunctioned for some reason, or something is trying to affect the signal.
and if you don't like rf signals make it ir signals instead. bonus you can change ammo with your tv remote.
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@brad haggins
I completely agree on the wristband and thumb print and I am (even though I love new tech) squeamish about having something sitting under my skin ... even though these are extremely useful in any kidnapping cases.
It is not to take care of responsible gun owners instead this is for the forgetful ones or the ones that lapsed in paying attention to their firearm 100% of the time they have it out of its case and unlocked, and the people that accidentally shoot themselves because they lean their gun up against something and it falls. But primarily this forces the knuckleheads that regularly do not practice gun safety to stay safe.
Here is the skinny of it. There are more than 2/3rds of the population who do not own guns / don't care around half of them are some shade of anti gun. People who do like owning guns can be outvoted in an instant.
now if something like pizzagate happens or that loony toon who shot up a planned parenthood or another sandy hook happens right before an election with a very restrictive bill, we may find we will need to give up anything bigger than a .22 and shorter than a 2 foot barrel. all there needs to be is one or two poorly timed events and that becomes the reality. The guns we can have could possibly all become chipped with remote disablers to boot.
So solutions are:
-- finding some way of keeping guns out of the true gunnuts, not gun nerds, I am talking about the ones that believe every word of breitbart and the like as if it was written law. These guys truly pose a threat to anyone who wants to keep their firearms. I am talking about the bundy's and the guy who shot up a pizza place because of some bs hillary conspiracy, or the guy who shot up the planned parenthood center because of that phoney video by the moron who killed acorn, the I-hope-he's-a-dead-man-walking white supremacist that shot up the black church (guess what those 2/3rds think we are all like. I can guarantee they don't see us as a "concerned helping protective force")
-- keep the guns away from lazy or unsafe people who leave them lying around loaded and unlocked
-- keep them out of the hands of hotheads, like that x cop in the movie theater who shot and killed some guy for making some noise.
these 3 are nearly impossible to do without changing the rights of owning a gun to have proper evaluations on a regular basis possibly monthly (I do support this as I certainly do not want a hot head getting into an argument with me over something stupid and then shooting me because they have little to no training and lack proper self control)
the problem is those 3 groups who are rather small in the gun ownership world make for a lot of noise and paint all other gun owners in their colors. (this is also the root problem with motorcyclists, BLM, Mexicans being single out, anti cop sentiments, and many others) If you want to debate about those I am all for it. it is a very interesting hard to solve issue.
so next best thing is to make sure the guns have a safety on them that only the proper registered user can use them. This ensures gun owners their gun will not fire unless they are near enough and or holding it. But how to do this in a way that could be useful in a fight situation? many ways!
-- pre unlock it before you leave
-- holster has the disabler in it. stays disabled until it has been removed for x amount of time
-- ir flasher on you somewhere gives it a signal to unlock
-- rf signal tells it to unlock (if you read my earlier posts with @matchburns they will explain why arguments about it getting hacked are pretty baseless and go nowhere)
also just to reiterate on the reliability aspects of the electronics. They will always be more reliable than anything that can ever be and has ever been made as a mechanical device. the main reasons being
-- solid state means no moving parts and therefore nothing will wear out and get loose
-- sealing the system in circuit epoxy will make it more waterproof than the oil you are using to prevent rusting parts, it will be more chemical resistant, and it will never oxidise, and the parts it is sealing will never oxidise and corrode. It also adds extra protection against vibrations and shocks
-- guns are nothing there are breadboards in tanks and cannons and car engines and racing diesels and earthquake simulators and space shuttles, and ultrasonic weapons and aircraft and smart bullets and... well I think you get the drift, they are really really tough to shake apart. your standard guns action will rattle apart long long before the board ever does. This is especially true when quality board material is used, chips and other components are mounted using through hole rather than surface mount, and it is securely anchored in the gun.
-- heat will cause them to fail. standard chips can easily get up to 115c and sit there all day so unless you are wearing oven mitts while firing your gun due to heat I think it will be fine. Not to mention if your mechanical action starts getting that hot it too will start having major problems.
-- emp can disable it. yes possibly what kiloton nuke are you storing in your back pocket? I would be much more worried about the nuke that just went off 300 yards away rather than if my gun still fires. The metal around most guns action might be enough to block the emp coming from most nuclear weapons within a few hundred yards of the explosion. this of course is hypothetical but not too far from the truth. hand held emp made from camera flashes and tasers need to be within inches of exposed board to do anything and typically the device will just get confused and crash and then you can reboot it. It usually takes 10-50 zaps from the emp to achieve this shut down of the device. Video games and sci fi are way way way cooler than reality.
-- people can hack it. Sure if they first steal it then disassemble it then remove all the resin from the board then remove the chip read the chip reflash it or replace it reassemble the board add new resin reassemble the gun place it back in the victims house and now you can break in as a proper thief and your victim will be totally surprised his dang fiddly electronic gun don't work just as he thought it wouldn't. This seems to be a bit excessive for a robbery or a gun fight. I am not sure if you would have time to do all that during a gunfight? I totally wish I had video game and movie hacking powers but reality is soooo boring and predictable.
-- it will not be charged when I want to use it. there are so many ways to mitigate this issue not to mention on a 9v battery it will probably last for weeks.
there are also several ways this can be implemented:
-- it can simply stick a safety pin in place so nothing moves but the action is otherwise as it would be right now.
-- it can be a half and half system where the back pressure from the cartridge ejects the spent casing and loads the next, and the circuit resets the hammer or simply fires the pin
-- it can be fully digital where the computer controls ejecting the spent round, loading a new one, and running the pin
-- it can be full electronic using a different kind of propellant that is set off using an electric charge. This can be achieved by using capacitors for a high burst of power.
now you also save on weight you will have the smoothest pull you could ever dream of, the entire circuit will take up about the same space as a quarter so you can now use the rest for other things or different gun shapes and designs. (yes the entire action replaced with a 25 cent piece and a 9v battery and a couple servos)
The training is good but the ultimate goal is to get rid of tragedies and the negative press. The NRA also does not help our image at all not even in the slightest. They are seen as enemy #1 and we liking or owning guns are therefore also enemy #1. They may have been good at one point but when the Bismark starts flying a red white and black hindu flag and can only steam in circles with a damaged rudder it might be time to hop over to the other side and abandon it. Else whoever is on it will go down with their guns and the ship and drag everyone else with them.
The biggest issue is how to keep the guns away from unstable crazy people who regularly believe chainmail and breitbart? These guys will be the legal owner but they will still be completely nuts. Not to mention the far right terrorists like the bundys and their ilk.
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