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@N0Time Historians don’t say that lmao. Nation building/revisionist French historians may say that. Clovis absolutely wasn’t French nor the the first king of France. France literally did not exist and it wouldn’t exist for centuries.
This is not exactly comparable to Alfred. It would be more like saying Odoacer was Italin. Alfred was a Saxon and styled himself king of the Anglo Saxons. And it was his grandson who would first be the king of England. The Saxons are a Germanic people, who founded a Germanic kingdom made up predominantly of Saxons and Angles. Clovis was a Frank who invaded Gaul, and who would be king of a country that would eventually, centuries later, also lead to the creation of France and of a French culture. This French culture would have very little connection to the Frankish culture of Clovis, and not only that, it did not even exist yet. French culture as we know it today comes mainly from the area around Paris, and was adopted by the Frankish nobles that settled in Gaul a little after Charlemagne. Additionally, Clovis adopting Christianity is just a propaganda moment. Christianity obviously already existed in Gaul, that is the whole reason why the Franks converted, not the other way around.
Naturally, Clovis is part of French history. You need to know about him to understand why France would develop centuries later. But the conversion of Clovis is not the beginning of France, nor was Clovis French. He was a Frank, and again it would take about 4-5 centuries for the Franks that settled in gaul to assimilate in and contribute to the creation of a French culture. Just because France ended up being a blend of some peoples (though France is mostly made up if Latinized gauls nonetheless) doesn’t mean that you can go to the beginning of this process and call all the people involved French. This is anachronism
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@Thinkaboutit56789 What are you talking about? Germanic is a category we modern peple enforce on ancient tribes that is mostly based on language and religion. As for Germanic tribes, Germans can’t claim to be Frankish simply because they are also Germanic. Saxons, Bavari and Allemani tribes were all distinct from the Franks. Some Germans are Franks but the overwhelming majority of them aren’t. There wasn’t just one Germanic tribe, and German identity developed much later.
I also didn’t say the French are Frankish. The modern day descendants of the Franks live in parts of west Germany (mostly along the northern parts of the German rhine), the Netherlands (except for Frisia and the few Saxon regions), Belgium (mainly in Flanders, Brabant and Limburg) and small parts of Northern France
That all being said, Charlemagne absolutely wasn’t German, as the first mentions of German identity stem from the early 11th century, long after he lived. It would he like saying Caesar had an Italian identity, he didn’t
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@noelleggett5368 Except we don’t know exactly what happened, and genetic, linguistic and contemporary evidence points to large scale settlement, not just Saxons becoming traders and elites. If it was only a few traders and rulers the genetic impact would have been much more limited (like the Franks in Gaul or Normans in Normandy or England).
Also any extrapolation based on what happened to the Irish can be dismissed out of hand. Highly centralized states could enforce language bans, and even then it didn’t work. It took the famine to actually destroy Irish. But a decentralized early medieval state did not have the capacity to ban languages, nor enforce any such ban on their people.
The theory that there were only a few Germanic settlers is popular with people who want to deconstruct Englishness. But that theory was already based on very weak archeological eviction to begin with, and has been completely disproven in the last 10 years with genetic evidence. But even without it didn’t make any sense. As if the Celtic Britons just all abandoned their language en-masse in favor of this minority ruling class tongue, even people in villages who would never need to trade or speak Old English. And not only that, that they didn’t leave any linguistic traces in old English? That is beyond what one can reasonably believe. Because languages do actually mix rather well, it is called loan words. It is why modern English had a lot of French words, introduced here by a feudal ruling class. But old English is still the core of the language. It is why French has Frankish loan words, but Latin is still the core of the language. If there had only been a few Saxons the situation of the French language would have been more likely. A latin language with significant Frankish loanwords and pronunciation.
Basically the “small settlement” theory is outdated rubbish. And even when it had some plausibility, it was plagued by huge holes and rested on biased interpretations of archeological evidence.
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@dukeofwestphalia No he absolutely didn’t. Lothar has almost nothing to do with Germany or German identity. German identity only started developing after the Karolingian kings lost power in East Frankia. This statted happening around the very early 11th century, so well after Lothar lived.
As a side note, the region of Franken probably got its name the same way France did, through conquest. The Frankish Empire only integrated the region between in the 6th century, and it wasn’t where their power center was nor where the Franks lived.
The Franks lived in what is now Flanders, Brabant and parts of Northern France (the original Merovingian region) and in what is now Limburg (in Belgium and the Netherlands) and in NRW primarily centered around cologne. Dutch itself is directly descended from various old Frankish dialects. And yet neither Charlemagne nor Lothar were Dutch, or German or French, in any sense.
He was Germanic yes, and Frankish, and as all Karolingian kings he would his heritage would have been closely tied to the Region around Maastrich-Liege-Aachen, but calling him a German or Dutch king is anachronistic. Representing him as emperor of Middle Francia (which was dissolved and isn’t the direct predecessor to Germany anyway) is the only correct way
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@meh2972 Dutch is not the historic regional language, it is a form of Saxon. Now of course because of the integration into the Dutch they primarily speak Dutch now. But I was talking about their historical language. Because again the people of the Eastern Netherlands are Saxon, and have been since the Franks left and were driven out.
Well if the Franks came from the North as you suggested, then that doesn’t leave a lot of room for other regions they could have come from. As you are such an expert you must know north of Saland, were the Frisians and Saxons.
Also I am not saying the modern Dutch don’t come from the Franks. I am saying that the Franks aren’t originally from the Netherlands. But the people of the Netherlands, specifically the area below the Rhine, as above the Rhine it is far more mixed (or just straight up Frisian and Saxon not Frankish), are Frankish. So you just didn’t read what I said
Lastly it is you who clearly doesn’t know what he is talking about. The Karolingians were centered around Aachen, Maastricht and Liege, basically the Rhine-Meuse valleys. The Merovingians were firmly based around Tournai, Lille and then various cities in Northern France after the conquest of Gaul. Their power base was certainly not anywhere close to the modern Netherlands. Because the Netherlands at this time (again above the Rhine) were primarily Frisian and Saxon. Please don’t state such obvious nonsense, it betrays that you don’t actually know the differences between the early and later Frankish period. Which is especially funny when you accuse me of ignorance.
The Dutch (most of them) and the modern Flemish, are Frankish. But they are migrators, they didn’t originally come from the low countries.
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@ax.f-1256 You are so wrong I don’t even know where to begin. Hitler got incredibly lucky to end up where he did. His popularity, and that of the communists was decreasing before the 1929 stock market crash, because when people have food and stability they won’t vote for or support radicals, that is just how it is. If you know your own history so well, then go and have a look at the elections before and after 1929.
In 1928, the nazis are a complete fringe force, that no one takes seriously, with less 2% of the vote. Then, suddenly one election later in 1930 they are at 18%. The communists actually took the lead in that election too. I wonder why these radicals suddenly became more popular in between 1928 and 1930. Truly a mystery
Tbh you sound more like an incredibly biased monarchist than anything else. Like dude, you can start a revolution with a monarchy, that revolution was brewing and the social democrats tried to stop it by forcing Willy to go. Now a revolution still happened (and it successfully applied enough pressure to at least overthrow the monarchy) but they tried
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@wolfgangpagel6989 First of all, there is no one German language, there is standard German which is one of many languages that are often classified as German. The distinction betwern language and dialect is political and not linguistic.
Dutch is close to German sure, but Dutch (and Luxemburgish) are descendants if Frankish, in the case if Dutch Salian and in the case of Luxemburgish a Ripurian version. There is no debate about this, they are in essence Frankish languages. That is why when looking at Frankish loan words in French, they are first compared to (old) Dutch and Luxemburgish.
Standard French is not “originally” Frankish, it is a form of Vulgar Latin with minor Frankish influences. As for the Franks themselves, some of them moved into Gaul and were assimilated into the Romanized Gaulic and latin population, but the Franks still exist as a Germanic group in Belgium, the Netherlands and parts if west Germany.
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@wolfgangpagel6989 No, the actual origins of the Franks is very mirky and interpretations are made of sparse Roman sources. That is the origins before they settled in what is now Utrecht as fedorati. Logically they came from east if the Rhine, but exactly what tribes made ip the Franks is mostly unkown with some exceptions like the Chatti.
The Dutch were part of the HRE sure, but they left, and as such the local language of the Netherlands which is directly descendant from Frankish became the standard language, which of course as you said did not happen in Germany. You don’t have to get semantical about old Frankish, specifically the Salian variety. Obviously they weren’t standardized, but the term is used to describe their language continuum as a whole.
The languages of Nothern Germany are similar to Dutch because they, like Dutch did not experience the High German consonant shift, making them closer in terms of their sounds. That being said Low German is mostly made up if Saxon, whereas Dutch, again, is Frankish.
Simply put, the Dutch are the direct descendants of the Franks with minor Frisian elements (Frisian elements in Dutch, they are themselves of course still separated). There have of course been many many cultural changes, but as a people the Dutch are the descendants of the Franks
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@KurtFrederiksen I don’t mean that the city was called Rus, I meant the state. A state that was founded by a Novgorodian ruler. Oh all of the eastern and northern principalities went on to form Russia, under the leadership of Moscovy, which came out if Vladimir, a key principalty, which even usurped Kiev. Also I think calling them by the name they were actually called in various contemporary sources, the Rus, is more correct than the 19th century make belief.
Anyway you are just completely irrational at this point, there is no sense in arguing with someone who is just trying to justify anti russian nationhood positions (Russia is obviously the main successor to the Rus on top of that). And I am not even saying Russianis the only successor to the Rus, Ukraine and Russia both are, as is Belarus. You are the one excluding one of the countries that came out of the Rus principalities for no reason other than bias
Have fun with your anti-Russian ramblings though
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@davepx1 Frisians and especially Franks were a small component, and Frisians are most likely a branch of Saxons, and they are definitely a North Sea West Germanic people. Franks would at least be Wesser-Rhine Germanic, but even there, Dutch is the second closest language to English, and Dutch is the modern form of Frankish. So these were all closely related people. Them being politically disunited doesn’t change that
I never said the modern English aren’t Celtic genetically. It is your side that is spending a lot of effort try to prove the opposite, in vain because luckily for us now genetic evidence has disproven the small settlement theory
Also placenames are not the same as words in a language. The native Americans were whiped out completely in large parts of the Americas, even more so than Celts in Britain, yet a lot of their place names remain. But if that is too far, Roman names in Britain don’t mean that Romans had any significant impact on Old English or on the people of Britain. Given that they had all left before the Anglo-Saxons invaded. In the actual spoken language of Old English though there are like 6 known loanwords from Celtic Britonic languages. Which is shockingly little
Archeological evidence in this case is limited and people use it to just try and prove beliefs they already had. We don’t have any archeological evidence for the battle of Hastings either but that battle definitely happened. And that is a case where you know where and what to look for. So a lack of burials or graves on either side doesn’t prove anything on its own. It can be used as an indicator, but when that indicator is directly contradicted by genetics, contemporary sources and linguistic theories, it has to take a back seat
Is it likely bede exaggerated? Yes. Does that mean anglo saxons don’t exist or that there was almost no Germanic settlement in Britain? From the most recent evidence we have, no it doesn’t
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