Comments by "Mark H" (@markh1011) on "Сэм Харрис: Наука может дать ответ на вопросы морали." video.

"We need religion you idiot. What we don't need is science" It's comical that you dismiss science while enjoying all the benefits it brings. If science is so bad then unplug that computer then, leave your house and go live in a cave or a shack. Next time you get sick, just pray to get better.
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"if God does not exist, all things are permitted" Permitted by who? Not most of the planet. Also, I could say that if Yahweh exists then slavery is acceptable.
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"nd irony is that he lambasted cloth bags all the while himself being ''caged'' in a cloth bag!" What? He's not wearing a cloth bag. Your comments make no sense.
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@paulchambers3279 "Those are two verses from both testaments that very clearly teach that slavery, especially as practiced in this country, is a heinous sin" No. They are about kidnappning not slavery. Just think about the logic there. There are many verses that condone slavery. But the theist finds a couple about kidnapping, points to them and thinks it somehow addresses the ones that condone slavery. "The Atlantic slave trade runs thoroughly against scripture’s teachings, " Nope. Slavery was condoned. You could even beat your slave.
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@paulchambers3279 " The point is that if God doesn’t exist morality is merely a personal preference" Wrong. Can you go kill your neighbors? Do you think that is allowed? Is it considered acceptable? No. Our morality does not come down to a personal preference. "Just because most people agree on matters morality of morality does not make morality either objective " I'm not claiming that there is an objective standard. If you think there is then you have all sorts of problems to deal with.
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@paulchambers3279 "you seem to read back American chattel slavery into OT servanthood. " I've said nothing about America. That's your lens you're introducing here. "If you killed your slave, then you would be executed. " But if you beat them so badly that they lay on the ground for 2 days - ALL GOOD. That's quite the problem for you. You're doing a lot of dodging and deflecting. "Also, if you bought someone who was being sold as a slave via kidnapping then you would be executed." Once again - kidnapping bad, slavery fine. You're not making any ground here. "American styled " Forget America. The problem is the bible.
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@paulchambers3279 "Read some Nietzsche." More deflecting. How about you respond to my posts. Can't you do it? " No God= no foundation for morality" Which is incorrect. Humans have an inherent morality and have refined it over the centuries with debate and analysis. You seem blissfully unaware about this. "In fact, Sam Harris is in the minority in thinking atheism provides a solid metaphysic for ethics." It's not atheism that is the foundation. You don't understand his position. So your statement wasn't even valid. You've not addressed any of the problems. Slavery is condoned in the bible. If you want to say that it's not the same as US slavery ... so what? It's keeping people as property. It's people becoming property when they didn't chose to be. It's people being passed on to children as inheritance. It's the allowance to beat that property... Whatever typo of slavery you want to call it... it's slavery and it's immoral.
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@paulchambers3279 "It’s just your personal opinion. " You keep spouting this line. Modern ethics and morality are not defined by a single person. Your statement is simply false. "By the way, if God doesn’t exist, there is no reason why slavery is objectively wrong." Slavery is wrong regardless of whether there is a magical man in the clouds.
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@paulchambers3279 "humans have an Inherent morality" To a point yes. Do you deny this? "adolf " Oh you mean the religious man who thought he was doing god's work leading religious Germany to a genocide (Yahweh loves genocide) based partly on biblical events. Yeah that guy.
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@paulchambers3279 If you think you have a transcendental ground for your morality then you have some problems to deal with. 1. How do you know there is a transcendental grounding? 2. How do you prove that there is a transcendental grounding? 3. How do you know the rules of this transcendental grounding? If you said "the bible" for 3 you have all sorts of new problems considering the immorality in the bible such as slavery. Over to you.
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@paulchambers3279 "why though…because you say so? You are just a human. Who cares?" This sounds like the response of a petulant child who can't get their way. " Do you think that the Bible’s commands at all times represents God’s ideal? " You tell me. "How would you reconcile" The many contradictions of your bible are YOUR problem to work with not mine. Have fun with that.
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@paulchambers3279 "I do think humans have an objective morality" So explain Hitler then. "hence have the law written on our heart " So explain Hitler then. "we are made in God’s image…though we are also sinful." So Yahweh was sinful and imperfect. "Atheism sadly provides no such objective reference point for morally." You misunderstand atheism. ...and it's a pretty basic misunderstanding you're making. Atheism isn't an ethical framework. We do however have other ethical frameworks.... in fact morality and ethics have been progressing since the time of the Greek philosophers, perhaps before. You have a lot of learning to do. Please read a book or two. " And if you think hitler was a Christian" I didn't say he was a Christian. Not the type you know today anyway. Hitler was a mess. But I said he followed the god of the bible and apparently he did. "Read a book" It's hilariously ironic for you to say that after such a display of ignorance.
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@paulchambers3279 "I actually wrote my masters thesis on this" It doesn't show. Your arguments so far have been rudimentary, contradictory and show a great lack of understanding. "We are all sadly screwed up." If that's the case, and we were designed, then the designer has some responsibility for that. "How could that not explain how people, though made in God’s image, are horribly sinful??" You're offering another contradictory argument then. You claimed "I do think humans have an objective morality" and "hence have the law written on our heart ". and now you're giving excuses that undermine that.
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@paulchambers3279 Soooooo not even going to take a stab? 1. How do you know there is a transcendental grounding? 2. How do you prove that there is a transcendental grounding? 3. How do you know the rules of this transcendental grounding? If you said "the bible" for 3 you have all sorts of new problems considering the immorality in the bible such as slavery. Over to you.
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@paulchambers3279 " you would see that humans were not created sinful but of our own free will rebelled against God and became sinful" You're dodging the point. According to your religion, Yahweh made us. Yahweh made our brains. Yahweh decided our choices. Yahweh decided the range of options we would take. "So no, I don’t think God is responsible for humanity being screwed up. " That's not logical. ..and to be honest, it's rather pathetic. He made these humans and did such a poor job of it. He created their desire to sin. He created evil overall -Isaiah 45:7. Isn't this all his plan? It's an absurd scenario where you credit everything to god... except when something bad happens...or his creations are terrible... and you start with the excuses. A perfect creator would not create imperfect creations.
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@paulchambers3279 To your next post. 1. As I said - the contradictions of your bible are your mess to deal with. So you couldn't answer question 1. 2. "Now, how do I KNOW that it is a fact? HAHA. That is the question of someone who is not formally trained in epistemology." So you couldn't answer question 2. I see no answer to question 3. So you make claims about objective morality, but when it comes down to it. You don't really know if there is one. You can't prove if there is one. You don't even know the rules of this objective standard. What a hopeless failure your position is.
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@paulchambers3279 "The question is what makes slavery wrong if God does not exist." It contravenes are modern morals and ethics. These are ethics that have gone far beyond those of the authors of the bible who approved of slavery, misogyny and murdering disrespectful children.
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@paulchambers3279 "You are quite bad at this. " You have no idea how ironically funny that is. You're getting schooled here kiddo and it's not even difficult. "What if the nazis won ww2 and convinced everyone Jew-murder was good? " Then that would have still contravened our modern morals and ethics. You don't seem to understand that debate and analysis of ethics and morality has been in progress for over a couple of thousand years. "Read a book" You seem to say this when you can't think of a response... which means you say this quite a lot. A little hint kiddo, squealing "read a book" doesn't substitute for your constant bungling and evasions. " If you want to learn some basic philosophy, watch some William Lane Craig" Oh I've seen a lot of Dr Craig. His arguments are flawed.
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@paulchambers3279 So when challenged to support your claims of an objective morality you couldn't support ...anything. It's faith. ..a mere opinion. Your embarrassing failure here is something for you to think upon. Perhaps you should do some more reading. You've clearly got a lot to learn about this subject.
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@paulchambers3279 " I don’t even know where to begin with you" Yes it appears that you're struggling with this whole subject. _"Do you think our modern ethics are objectively better _ I think they are better and can defend why. I wouldn't use the term "objectively". "Answer the above question, fool" That's interesting that you say such a thing considering you couldn't answer the 4 questions I gave you. In fact when challenged on the foundations of your morality you couldn't offer anything at all. Your position fell apart.
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@paulchambers3279 "So you admit that, given atheism, there is no objective morality" I've always said I don't see evidence for an objective morality. I challenged you to demonstrate that there was one and you couldn't. So your claim that there is one, is mere opinion. " ethics is just a matter of personal opinion" I've educated you as to why modern ethics is not anyone's personal opinion. You couldn't refute it. All your arguments have failed. You can't refute mine.
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@paulchambers3279 "also, again you evade your illiteracy concerning exodus and 1 Timothy" Another argument you've lost. Man stealing is not slavery. Lets recap your logic here. Many verses that condone slavery...but you find a verse about kidnapping and you think it somehow makes all those condoning slavery just disappear... So your problems remain. You can't defend your morality. Slavery is condoned by many verses in the bible. Nowhere in the bible does it say that slavery is wrong. A few emojis and personal attacks aren't going to save you here kid. ;)
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@paulchambers3279 "Again, you evade your illiteracy concerning exodus and 1 Timothy. " I've addressed this many times and shown you why you are wrong. You're not able to respond to my arguments so you're just stamping your feet and repeating the claim that has been refuted. " I’m not sure what fantasy world you live in where you have somehow proved otherwise." I haven't argued against that statement. "I think there are also solid reasons for believing morality is objective." Then you need to provide some support for this. 1. How do you know there is a transcendental grounding? 2. How do you prove that there is a transcendental grounding? 3. How do you know the rules of this transcendental grounding? If you said "the bible" for 3 you have all sorts of new problems considering the immorality in the bible such as slavery. Over to you. You've tried to dodge this. ... because you cannot answer. "If I need to lay that out for you in a syllogism, jackass, I can." At this stage I don't think you have the competency to lay out anything. So answer those questions if you can. Quit dodging.
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@paulchambers3279 " intellectually honest atheists have admitted that without God there is no objective morality. " There could be an objective morality without your god. "If you agree with me on that," I don't.
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@paulchambers3279 "That is not slavery? What?" That's kidnapping. I'll explain it again and I'll try to keep it simple for you. Slavery was condoned in the bible. That's simply a fact. I can post more verses again if you're going to foolishly deny this. Kidnapping was not condoned. You couldn't just kidnap your neighbor and make them a slave. Slavery however was fine. There were rules about it. " same as American chattel slavery" Forget America. Slavery is immoral regardless of comparisons to a single country. " is the kind of slavery I said the Bible explicitly condemns." Except it doesnt....anywhere...in the bible. No one condemns slavery in the bible. There are many verses condoning it.
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@paulchambers3279 "Given your ethical views, you don’t even have a reason to think slavery is wrong in the first place. " You're very confused. This claim is a bizarre non sequitur. "It’s hilarious that you attack YHWH for his laws" Of course i do. I appear to have better morals that Yahweh. Also, I wouldn't commit drowning genocide if I messed up making people.... also I wouldn't tell parents to murder their disrespectful children.... the list goes on. Yes I have better morals than Yahweh. "you have zero solid foundation " More confusion. The foundation of modern ethics and morality includes concepts such as "reducing human suffering' and "increase human flourishing". We analyse moral decisions to see which outcomes are the most positive. You - "god said so". Yeah I think I'll stick with the deeply analytical approach of ethics over "god said so".
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@paulchambers3279 You keep talking about America as if that's the only bad example of slavery. Owning people ..and being able to beat them.. is immoral regardless of whether it was the same as America's past or not. How could people become slaves? - War - Born into slavery. - Sold into slavery by their parents. - Voluntary. Lets look at a few examples of this. Exodus 21:4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. Deuteronomy 20:10-15 10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. Leviticus 25 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Exodus 21 7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,[b] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money. "Here you are, saying that your ethics are objectively better than YHWH's while a few comments ago you stated that you see no evidence for an objective morality." You've yet to show a problem. You've yet to show any irony. "Finally, " Finally? You've yet to make a single point. " Is it objectively bad or it is just your personal opinion?" Nether. Personal - "belonging to or affecting a particular person rather than anyone else." Our morality isn't decided by a single person. You are wrong. I've challenged you about objective morality and you can't defend it. " Some people like strawberry ice cream, some like vanilla." I've addressed the ignorance of this example multiple times already. Are you allowed to go around killing people? No? Oh look it's not like an ice cream decision. How do humans react to pain? Is it just like an ice cream decision? No it's not analogous at all. Every time you use that example you're wilfully showing how poorly you understand this topic. "Some like genocide, others don't. " Yahweh seems to. " It's all just our personal beliefs. " Wrong.... as I have repeatedly shown. Modern ethics are not based on personal beliefs. They are based on how decisions effect those concepts I raised such as human flourishing. " Who gives a crap if humans flourish?" Humans. "That's just your personal opinion." No it's what humans want. It's what is good for humans. When we talk about morality we are talking about human morality unfortunately. We are not talking about ant, bacteria or plant morality. You don't seem to understand what the word "personal" means. It's a good thing I posted the definition for you. You have so much basic stuff to learn about this topic. "Try again. " Try teaching you rudimentary stuff again? I've been schooling you since the start of the thread so you should be used to the uncomfortable lessons by now. "You have done nothing to establish that atheism provides a sure footing for morality." I've given you examples of the concepts underpinning our modern morality. You cannot refute them. You just assert that they are personal which is incorrect. Try again. The rest of your post was ignored. You copy pasted something and made no argument. You cried about Sam Harris. No one cares. So you offered no real arguments here. I had to educate you about the bible, I had to educate you about morality. You've offered to refutation on my post. You cannot even begin to support your claims of objective morality. Your position already fell apart like a house of cards. Are your posts going to get better at some point? I doubt it.
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@paulchambers3279 "that is a personal belief, dumbass." I even posted the definition of 'personal' to help you understand what you're getting wrong. Personal - "belonging to or affecting a particular person rather than anyone else." I tried to keep it all simple so that maybe you would understand. ... but no. That response was poor... but then again that's about all i expect from you now.
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@paulchambers3279 " I love how you just keep repeating ad hominems to try and make yourself seem superior" You're projecting. I have systematically dismantled all your arguments. You don't even try to address my posts. You can't. So you waffle on and aim attacks at me instead. "Really it just makes you seem insecure. " More projecting. "using the dictionary as a source for philosophical terminology. " So you're now denying the english language..... Keep digging that hole. I'm just laughing. "Also, every word has a range of meanings" You're using the word incorrectly. You can kick and scream all you want. "Let’s return to the topic at hand" You keep running from my arguments because you lack the background to address them. ". Personal, as I am describing it, is simply another way of referring to the subjective valuations" So the word you are probably looking for is "subjective" not "personal". They do not mean the same thing. Words have meanings. Try to learn what they are before you use them. So I decimated you with the previous larger post and you're resorting to attacks and crying about word definitions. You're going to have to come up with something good to get back on track from here.... Over to you.
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@EzJaye When people say that there is an objective standard as set by the god of the bible... these are the problems I see: How do you know there is this objective standard? Does it just feel that there should be? Can you demonstrate that there is this objective standard? Is it just faith and wishful thinking? How do you know what the rules are? Do we have to work them out ourselves? How do you even know there was a standard if we are working it out for ourselves? If at any point during these points, the bible is referenced ..or even just the god of the bible (who drowned babies) that opens up even more problems. I've been coming across atheists recently who believe there is an objective morality. But I see it as different from the type of objective morality decided by the god of the bible.
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