Youtube comments of phothewin (@phothewin6019).
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Anybody remember the 2011 movie Crazy, Stupid, Love - the romcom starring Ryan Gosling, Steve Carrel, and Emma Stone?
I, like many others, rewatched a bunch of movies when the lockdowns first started, and that film was one of them. I remember it being an enjoyable movie and receiving good reviews back in the day, but after a rewatch... holy crap was the end message of the movie kinda creepy lmao.
It essentially says to never stop pursuing a girl you want even if she explicitly tells you no. And that constantly pursuing her after she explicitly rejects you isn't creepy, but actually endearing and romantic. What makes it even worse is that this idea was communicated between 2 characters who were minors - one being a boy in middle school (who received nudes of the other person), and the other being a girl in highschool (who has a crush on the middle-schooler's 40-something year-old father - the original intended recipient of the nudes).
This movie would get shat on in today's world lmao.
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 @kaelcohen6432 No, literally look at his body. It looks nothing like the suit. He's slim and lean, the suit is bigger and bulky. Look at how skinny his arms are compared to when the suit is on. Look at his actual muscles. If you think Affleck's arms, chest, neck, and thighs look that thick outside of the suit, you need to get your eyes checked. Mark Wahlberg in Pain and Gain has a closer body type to the suit lol. The suit looks more like a bodybuilder shape, while Affleck's body looks more like a 50 year-old who does crossfit. And not Crossfit Games, top 10% level body either. And look at Affleck when he's wearing regular shirts in the movie; his body doesnt look big at all. You couldn't even tell that he lifts without taking his shirt off - that's one of the major red flags. If your body is making the Batsuit look big, then you should look big and bulky in regular dress shirts as well. He looks like a regular person when he has regular dress shirts on. Put Cena or the Rock in regular dress shirts like Affleck and you can still tell that they lift, you can still tell that they're big. Not saying this to be offensive, but you sound like a person who's doesn't lift. It's usually non-lifters who can't tell these differences. They'll call anything remotely fit-looking "big" or "buff". Affleck's proportions do not match the thickness and shape to when the suit is on. He's fit, but his muscles aren't really big.
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 @CrutchCricket No, Rocky is not infallible. Sometimes life hits so hard that not even Rocky Balboa can take it. That's what makes it heartbreaking, surreal, and interesting. He isn't some Mary Sue that overcomes every single obstacle on his own. He's always had his support group, people he cared about, things to live for. Be it Mick, Adrian, Apollo, Paulie, or his son. In Rocky 6, he had Paulie, his son, and the the drive to get one last fight in. He has none of that in Creed. Paulie's dead, he's at the tail end of his life, his son disowned him to the point of not even letting him see his own grandson, he's definitely too old to be doing any boxing, and now he's been diagnosed with the same disease that killed his wife - a disease he views as terminal (since she got treatment and still died). Everyone and everything has moved on from him and he's left with nothing to live for. It's a completely organic, understandable situation; his pessimism is earned. And it's a real feeling that older adults feel all the time (watching this movie gave me flashbacks to my Gerontology class and my internships doing clinical at some nursing homes), especially people who were once king of the world and had it all. Him giving up in Creed's story isn't unfaithful to the character at all, it's a natural progression that's earned.
It's similar to Logan and Professor X. Both were inspiring heroes - shining beacons of hope that seemingly overcame every obstacle. Then life hit hard; harder than even they could handle. And they turned to the bitter, sad, old men we saw in Logan.
And what's cool is that the movies both deconstruct and reaffirm the myth of their heroes. They once again rise from their fall. This was the story of Rocky facing his mortality at an old age and overcoming it. Rocky Balboa once again embodied the will to persevere, the idea of resilience. In the end, he was still that guy. He didn't stay down; he found the will to fight again.
Drinker definitely could've used a better example than Rocky.
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 @CrutchCricket No, Drinker very specifically paints it as an inconsistency in his character. And he falsely equates his Creed situation to his Rocky 6 situation. There doesn't have to be a need in order for something to still be good or decent. Yes, you ending Rocky's story with the 6th movie would've been ok, but that doesn't make what they did with his character in Creed automatically bad. Being needed isn't an inherent metric of storytelling quality. There are plenty of stories that were never needed but still turned out good. Aliens 2, Patlabor 2, Stand Alone Complex 2nd GIG, The Night is Short Walk On Girl, the list goes on. Creed may have been an unneeded sequel in the franchise, but if you're going to bring Rocky back, you have to do something interesting and meaningful with his character. And there's no one way to do that. I don't give a sh*t if they broke him, I care about whether it was executed well or not.
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He's wrong; Rocky's personality wasn't retconned.
We know Rocky's philosophy: "It's not about how hard you can hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward, about how much you can take, and keep moving forward."
Except Rocky isn't infallible; he isn't some Gary Stu that can overcome every single obstacle with 0 issue. Sometimes life hits so hard that not even Rocky Balboa can take it. That's what makes it heartbreaking and surreal. Adrian's gone, Paulie's gone, his only son disowned him to the point of never even letting his kid meet him, he gets the same disease that killed his wife, he's at the tail end of his life and no one gives a sh*t about him anymore. He's in a way worse position than where he was in Rocky 6.
His bitterness is earned. His pessimistic worldview is organic.
It's similar to Logan and Professor X. Both were heroes; shining beacons of hope that seemingly overcame every obstacle. Then life hit hard; harder than even they could handle. And they turned to the bitter, sad, old men we saw in Logan.
And what's cool is that the movies both deconstruct and reaffirm the myth of their heroes. They once again rise from their fall.
Heroes like them falling isn't an inherent issue or some inconsistency in the narrative; they're not infallible, after all. What matters is if the fall is organic. Does it make sense as to why they turned out the way they did? That's the question that has to be answered.
If a Mary Sue character went through what they did, do you think they'd turn out similar? Do you think they'd turn out broken? Of course not. It's a good thing they're not Mary Sues/Gary Stus.
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â @catastrophucked "so naturally there's not going to be any build-up to his decision, nor is there a giant need for it to be built up with the same amount of effort. They're two completely different scenarios functioning under a completely different set of rules."
Right, this is what I'm getting at. Fundamental decisions that made one team-up more effective than the other. Peter and Harry's relationship and conflict is something that was built up and developed throughout the course of 3 movies. It's a dynamic that has more emotional weight than 2 guys who essentially just met each other in one film and hated each other for completely different reasons. A team-up feels less special, less-earned when there's little to no emotional weight to it. It's less satisfying when there's substantially less depth to it. The characters went from strangers who hated each other to superhero pals at the flip of a switch. Their dynamic and conflict were established and resolved in a single movie (a movie that was the first appearance of one of those guys, and just the 2nd film in that universe overall). It was never given a chance to actually cook. Part of what made their conflict great in TDKR is that they've already been friends, comrades for decades at that point. They have an established relationship/dynamic, emotional stakes are at play. Their conflict is based on a direct philosophical disagreement about the same issue, not because of 2 different things that have no direct relation to the other. Another part of what makes BvS' team-up less earned is that the conflict resolution doesn't make much sense. While Harry's butler knowing the truth for years and never telling him is silly, the underlying idea - that Harry would be more inclined to help Peter if he knew he was innocent - still makes sense. Harry learning to let go of the past and reconciling with Peter also ties into the 3rd's theme of forgiveness, since their conflict was also more than just about Norman. I'm sure you're ready to defend "Martha", and I'm all here for it.
"but everybody just ignores the SHIT out of that as if it isn't the trilogy's defining pothole"
It's literally one of the film's most famous criticisms. It literally isn't ignored by "everybody" lol. And it's not really a plot hole, but more of a plot contrivance. But I digress.
"so no it wasn't "earned", no matter how much emotion you try to shove into that vague ass comparison."
Yes, it was earned, as I've gone over above.
"but it is at least internally consistent, and wraps up the conflict without leaving gaping holes in the story."
Completely disagree. I think the film's a giant mess in a multitude of ways.
"Batman v Superman earned it's conflict resolution"
Not at all. Like I described above, it lacks depth, emotional stakes, development, and is resolved in an illogical manner.
"which is why it CONSISTENTLY gets praised, unlike this dogshit film,"
BvS gets consistently panned lol. Far more than even Spider-Man 3. You're free to enjoy the film and defend it, but don't do some revisionist history nonsense lol. It doesn't help your argument.
"with its gaping plothole that is regularly mocked and memed by fans in other videos."
So first you claim that it's ignored by everybody ("but everybody just ignores the SH*T out of that"), but now you're saying it's regularly mocked? Which is it lol?
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 @thecocktailian2091 Lol, no. Godzilla 2014 is a prime example of a shoving match. Punches, kicks, elbows, bites, scratches, tail swipes, blasts, axe swings, etc. - all of those are objectively present in GvK, moreso than any "shoving." There's plenty of shoving in Godzilla 2014 where they fight more realistically, especially with Godzilla's more bear-like fighting style from that movie. There is absolutely creative use of terrain. From Kong utilizing his mobility advantage on land by swinging and jumping from building to building to evade/attack Godzilla, to Godzilla using his advantage underwater to drown Kong like actual water predators (as opposed to just biting underwater like his battle against King Ghidora in GKotM), they absolutely utilized terrain. Not to mention the times where Kong took pieces of buildings to either throw or block Godzilla's attacks. They objectively did the things you claimed they didn't, arguably even more than Pacific Rim in some instances.
Also,
> in a video game city
Lol, you know Pacific Rim also fought in a video game city, right? Like, literally the same place.
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â @Alex5551-n5z "rn dave and revaz aren't even top 10 on RA"
Firstly, I specifically kept saying 2022 Chaffee for a reason. Of course he's not top 10 right now, but we're talking about how Morozov does against toprollers, and Dave was absolutely one of the top guys in 2022. He destroyed the guy you think is the favorite against Morozov, and Morozov beat him.
Second, Revaz is absolutely top 10 right now. 1) Levan, 2) Ermes, 3) Vitaly, 4) Jerry, 5) Dzeranov, 6) Kurdecha, 7) Georgi, 8) Revaz ???, ???. Genadi has not come back from injury, and Devon isn't even a super heavyweight anymore (and he looked awful at his 105kg debut). You can put Michael, Kamil, Corey, Ferit, or whoever at the 9 and 10. It doesn't matter.
Remember, Revaz gave Vitaly a WAR before his finger broke. And if you consider Morozov top 10, remember that Revaz gave him a war as well. People who are out of the top 10 are NOT going to give top guys like Vitaly and Morozov a war.
"Georgi would prob still beat morozov because he would still take morozov wrist."
I agree that Georgi would be the favorite if he's healthy. But as it stands, Morozov's loss against him doesn't "count", it is not definitive.
"Vitaly will always beat morozov because his unhookable."
Yes, we know this. That doesn't affect my point. I literally stated that he lost definitively against Vitaly in my previous comment. The point is that just because he loses to the strongest toproller after Levan, that doesn't mean he'd lose against other toprollers in the top 10. That's like saying losing to Levan in a hook means that your hook wouldn't be effective against other top super heavyweights. Of course you'd lose to Levan in a hook; he's the strongest on the planet. But that doesn't mean your hook wouldn't work against others. And I literally gave examples of his wins against top 10 toprollers like 2022 Chaffee and Revaz. His only definitive loss against a toproller is against Vitaly, who again, is 2nd to Levan.
"my point is that morozov has a style disadvantage when it comes to right arm wrestlers because they can counter his hook"
Out of the recent 4, only 1 was unhookable. 2 were literally beaten, and 1 match was not definitive. And again, Kurdecha is not on Vitaly''s level. Nor has he shown to be better than a healthy Georgi. Nor has he even proven to be better than Revaz. Remember, Morozov beat the guy who destroyed Kurdecha. Kurdecha only beat a sick Georgi who beat a sick Morozov.
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Yeah, Rocky's situation in Creed is completely organic and understandable. I've worked with many, many older adults when I did clinicals at some nursing homes. It's almost uncanny how well the film was able to capture the sadness and bitterness older adults can feel when they think that everyone and everything has moved on without them. That feeling that they have nothing left to live for. Even back in a gerontology class I took, my professor would tell us that these feelings can be common for older adults.
In the previous movies, Rocky's always had a support group to help him get through his greatest struggles. Be it Mick, Adrian, Apollo, Paulie, his son, they were there to help him. In Creed, he has none of that. His son may be alive, but he's essentially disowned his father at that point. Any support group he's had has disappeared. His sadness and bitterness is justified.
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Rocky's personality wasn't retconned.
We know Rocky's philosophy: "It's not about how hard you can hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward, about how much you can take, and keep moving forward."
Except Rocky isn't infallible; he isn't some Gary Stu that can overcome every single obstacle with 0 issue. Sometimes life hits so hard that not even Rocky Balboa can take it. That's what makes it heartbreaking and surreal. Adrian's gone, Paulie's gone, his only son disowned him to the point of never even letting his kid meet him, he gets the same disease that killed his wife, he's at the tail end of his life and no one gives a sh*t about him anymore. He's in a way worse position than where he was in Rocky 6.
His bitterness is earned. His pessimistic worldview is organic.
It's similar to Logan and Professor X. Both were heroes; shining beacons of hope that seemingly overcame every obstacle. Then life hit hard; harder than even they could handle. And they turned to the bitter, sad, old men we saw in Logan.
And what's cool is that the movies both deconstruct and reaffirm the myth of their heroes. They once again rise from their fall.
Heroes like them falling isn't an inherent issue or some inconsistency in the narrative; they're not infallible, after all. What matters is if the fall is organic. Does it make sense as to why they turned out the way they did? That's the question that has to be answered.
If a Mary Sue character went through what they did, do you think they'd turn out similar? Do you think they'd turn out broken? Of course not. If they were Mary Sues/Gary Stus, they wouldn't be our heroes.
It seems like others are disagreeing with your take on Creed, too.
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 @Alex5551-n5z In recent times, Morozov has faced 2022 Chaffee, Revaz, Georgi, and Vitaly.
He beat 2022 Chaffee and Revaz, both were great toprollers. It was a hook battle with Revaz, but the fact that Revaz didn't or wasn't able to toproll might be telling.
He lost to Georgi, but he was obviously incredibly sick. That is not a definitive lost.
He lost to Vitaly, but Vitaly is probably 2nd in the world to Levan's toproll.
His only definitive lost to a toproller was Vitaly, who is above many of the elite toprollers in the super heavyweights. I don't believe Kurdecha's hand and toproll are on Vitaly's level. Remember that Kurdecha got destroyed by 2022 Chaffee, and Morozov beat 2022 Chaffee. Revaz also had a war with Vitaly before his finger broke, and Morozov beat Revaz (in a hook).
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