Comments by "Taint ABird" (@taintabird23) on "BBC News"
channel.
-
70
-
26
-
20
-
11
-
11
-
10
-
7
-
7
-
7
-
7
-
7
-
7
-
7
-
6
-
'from at least 200AD to 1000AD people from the Western island raided, slaved, and conquered....'
Indeed, but you are comparing the movement and activities of barbaric tribes during the fall of the Roman Empire with the systematic centralised policy of colonisation of Ireland by England. Ireland was laboratory for testing the various command and control
systems which were employed in the establishment of what is often called England's first empire - the colonisation of North American. Your comparison is both ignorant and desperate.
'...what is wrong with Scottish settlers, they are simply Irish returning home, why were they made to feel so unwelcome...'
It was a take over by a people who practiced different customs, culture and religion. The English are leaving the EU because they think its going to happen to them if they remain. One of the characteristics of Brexit is that that the English are leaving the EU because they feel the EU does not respect their history and culture, yet they expect the Irish to forget theirs in relation to Brexit.
'The referendum was a UK referendum...'
Given the backdrop of a diminishing British Demos, and the litany of democratic deficits in the United Kingdom it is quite clear your factually correction statement will carry with it constitutional consequences in the future. Imagine if the EU behaved in such away towards the English?
'The border was drawn up quickly to prevent civil war - surely a laudable aim,...
'
The minority were the ones threatening war and were the ones who brought the gun into Irish politics in 1912. Had London called their bluff it is not certain there would have been a Civil War and it would have prevented the division of the island, preventing the extremes that evolved North and South consequently. The Ireland of today would have a different character.
'The line of the border was up for discussion in the 1930's, but the Irish Free State chose not to take that option but opted to have a portion of its share of the national debt cancelled ...'
Wrong. The Border Commission was established in 1920 with partition and lasted until 1925. Its terms were ambiguous and misleading. Ireland engaged in an Economic War with the UK in the 1930s over the payment of Land Annuities. This was settled in 1938 with Anglo-Irish Agreement which saw Ireland make one final payment to the UK and the transfer of the Royal Navy bases at Lough Swilly, Berehaven and Cobh to Irish control.
'An offer of unification was made in WW2 if the South would allow the Royal Navy to use bases in the south which it had only vacated in spring 1939 (all as per the Anglo-Irish Treaty)..." '
Wrong. Churchill sent a telegram to de Valera while drunk, having discussed nothing with Stormont. When the Unionists became aware of the offer they were apoplectic. De Valera never took the offer seriously.
''...very odd as the Republic itself already seems to do highly effective checks away from the border by chasing down those from the South who have bought vehicles in the North...'
This is your most stupid comment. Customs and Excise check cars bought by residents of the Republic for importation dues. This is not the same as placing border checks on Northern Ireland residents and business people on the importation or transit of goods through the republic - which would become the norm once the UK moves away from EU regulations. This would be an intolerable imposition on the people living along both sides of border, often just going about their day-to-day lives.
'Phuk the threats from the men of violence - do not give in to terrorists - '
But you are okay with partition because of the treat of violence by the UVF in 1920. You do not want to give into the threat of violence today, but in 1920 it was right for the UK government to give into the threats of a minority. This is an interesting exercise in Doublethink.
'...it is the EU which will have to implement border checks to protect its blessed single market...'
Not so. Ireland will do it.
'- the UK has said it will not do checks at the border - so what is going to happen - terrorists are going to start killing Protestants again cos the EU stops trucks at the border..?'
Republican dissidents will kill anyone who implements a hard border in Ireland, its just a matter of time.
'The volume of cross border traffic compared to the total volume of EU trade is pathetic - and yet they have made an issue out of it - some see it for what it is.'
Well, you are leaving the EU so your trade to the bloc will drop like a stone next month. Under Brexiter aspirations, it will be fine for NI hauliers to pay a tariff at the border when transiting to the Port of Dublin for ports in the UK or the EU.
'Hope this helps.'
You are no help at all.
6
-
6
-
Well Clarissa, you are not remainer. Your condescending post-imperial resentment betrays your Brexiter credentials.
Ireland has made a success of its EU membership, it has modernised its economy, expanded its export markets, developed its infrastructure - thanks to the EU. It has also become a more liberal country, more secure in its national identity and culture - in large part due to EU membership.
The UK, according to the Brexiters, has not made a success of membership, has developed a very narrow version of identity and is less secure about itself. After two world wars and one world cup, it is jealous of German hegemony.
Ireland produces 8 times more food than it needs, and exports much of the surplus to the UK which for all its genius cannot feed itself. Its corporation tax is the envy of many, including the UK which is lowering its own to compete with Ireland. No country 'survives' on corruption and I can't think of any foreign billionaires running it.
Irish people never dug potatoes with their bare hands - you'd use a spade or pitch fork. After a great deal of hard work, Ireland became successful in attracting foreign direct investment from the US and is now the EU HQ for Intel, Apple, Facebook, Yahoo etc. However, it did not happen overnight as you suggest. It has the largest budget airline in the Europe and is a world leader in aircraft leasing and several multi-national agri-food companies that employ 100,000 people around the world.
Today Ireland has a higher GDP per capita than the UK, and, even after the banking debt, a lower debt to GDP ratio than the UK. You won't know this because when you think of Ireland you think 'potatoes'.
Unlike the UK, Ireland knows it is on a shaky nail, exposed as it is to the collateral damage of a distinctly incoherent English nationalist brainfart.
Only people like you can explain why it is expected that Ireland should not defend its interests in such circumstances. When Ireland spoke of its concerns nobody in the UK listened because it was just Ireland - but the EU is listening.. Ireland has been firm in relation to its interests, with the UK in the unusual position of being weaker than Ireland. This must be a complete head wrecker for the British, and given the circus in the UK, it may appear smug. Its just a reality of Brexit.
Brexit is your fault. It is British policy. It is British folly. Not only is this going to damage your economy and standard of living, it will undermine the whole UK. We want to limit the enormous damage it does to us, don't blame the Irish for that. That's our responsibility to ourselves. We didn't ask for Brexit.
The UK is making a pigs ear of Brexit and you know it. The UK is a laughing stock and we Irish are actually embarrassed on your behalf. And we're all fucked. Together. For Ireland its like being tied to a drowning man who likes to remind us that we're going to drown with him.
Finally Clarissa, don't ever enter a quiz with Ireland as your specialist subject, you will only make an eejit of yourself.
Enjoy Brexit.
6
-
6
-
5
-
5
-
4
-
4
-
4
-
4
-
4
-
4
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
@gordonmills7798 'You never cease to amaze me with your anti-English/Westminster rhetoric.'
I'm not anti-English, but I am against the form of English nationalism that led to Brexit. You don't find it in Scottish, Irish or Welsh nationalism, which is inclusive and civic, not binary and ethnic. As for Westminster, it is a joke.
'You really do believe you have all the answers wrapped up in your oracle of facts and assumptions.'
I don't have answers, I only have observations and logic.
'This is your arrogance of which I repeatedly lay at your door each time I correspond with you.'
It is me calmly and coldly holding a mirror up to you, and all you are doing is focusing on my lack of emotion and confidence. Sadly, like many English people unaccustomed to he being critiqued, you assume I am somehow 'anti-English'. There is no reason why the English cannot be their own nation, they are as entitled to it as anyone else - my question is when are they going to grasp it, admit it and stand on their own two feet? No answer is ever given.
'The arrogance you portray is equal to blaming all Germans for the Holocaust.'
You have lost me here. If you have a guilt complex because your ancestors past, that is your business, but it is not healthy. English nationalists need to be able to acknowledge the good and the bad of their past in equal measure. Then you will no longer feel bound to defend the indefensible but be able to critique and understand yourselves and where you have come from as a people. Most of Europe has gone through this process in recent years, including the Germans. But not the English.
3
-
3
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
West Brit I voted in favour of the Presidential amendment on the same the day as the marriage equality referendum. It was defeated. That is democracy. You have to be 35 years old to run for President and that is not likely to change any time soon. Like some who feel marriage equality is wrong, I am disappointed but I will accept it.
Regarding the abortion referendum, I don't think you are comparing like with like. Marriage equality takes nothing from anyone, it gives something to those who were excluded before - but its a choice, we are not all obliged to marry members of the same sex. Not even gay people have this obligation.
In your abortion hypothesis, a retreat to a more conservative position does take something from others - in many cases, a free choice.
The Constitutional ban on abortion was lobbied for by an influential conservative Catholic group who intended to ensure that others would not have a choice. Having a blanket ban is not the mark of a free and socially inclusive society. It infringes Civil Rights. Marriage Equality does not impinge on anyone's Civil Rights, so why would No voters feel threatened by that?
Perhaps it has a parallel: in Northern Ireland, equality for Nationalists has also led to Unionist and Loyalist communities feeling a sense of loss. This is counter intuitive but is common in societies undergoing change - some people don't like it. For some reason equality between Nationalists and Unionists makes some Unionists feel that their Culture is being eroded. As with the anti-marriage equality voters, people wonder what is next and draw all kinds of usually ridiculous conclusions. Fear does that, fear of change, and fear was behind the answers Unionists had to Nationalist equality - civil and social exclusion.
The Republic has traditionally been a socially conservative country, and those who did not conform suffered appallingly for it, being put in institutions and shunned. These were the southern solutions, but like our Northern counterparts we are maturing in our own way.
Unlike the Presidential amendment, marriage equality and abortion are considered to be Civil Rights issues. Unlike Marriage Equality, the abortion referendum will be much more complex, between those who want a blanket ban, others who want it available in limited circumstances and the those who want a liberal free choice. It is a much more complex matter than Marriage Equality, in my opinion. While there are no losers when a civil right is protected, in the case of abortion the argument will be about when the Civil Right of the unborn becomes the issue I suspect.
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
The minimum wage in the republic is higher than its equivalent in the UK: its €9.80 for all ages. In the UK its the Euro equivalent of €9.22 at the age of 25, and lower when you are younger, I was surprised to find.
Dublin is the economic powerhouse of the island and the republic has a more dynamic, more productive and more globalised economy than the larger UK does.
On a conservative estimate, the Irish are now over 25 per cent richer than their UK counterparts. Irish income per capita rose from €13,934 in 1995 to €40,655 in 2018 — growth of 192 per cent. In contrast, UK income per capita rose from £21,716 in 1995 to £30,594 in 2018 — growth of roughly 41 per cent. Ireland is growing economically nearly five times faster than the UK every year.
While Ireland has a massive national debt, its growing economy means that its debt to GDP ratio is 64.8% in 2018; in the UK the debt to GDP ratio is 84.7% and is higher than it was before the Brexit referendum.
In a united Ireland scenario, there is no doubt the cost to all the people of the island would be enormous as Northern Ireland cannot pay for itself. However, once the economies are aligned the tax burden for all would decrease. This would be aided by the united entity have full access to the EU and a market of 400 + million.
Whether a united Ireland is on the cards or not is dependent on the success of Brexit. A hard Brexit may make the republic look more attractive as only Brexiters are convinced that leaving the EU carries any benefits for the UK. It may result in many UK citizens losing many benefits they take for granted today: the NHS, 40 hour working week, retirement at 65 etc
Best of luck with your studies...
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
West Brit "Your point that nobody would lose by the my speculative Abortion referendum , shows that you have no respect for the people who disagree with you ( us in this case) as they think that the foetus is a Human Life from conception so many 'people ' have the Ultimate to lose -Life."
I disagree that it shows a lack of respect, I totally respect their point, I just don't agree with it. People should be free to chose. Not everyone shares their beliefs on a blanket ban.
"...but they can't be Equal any more then you can say that a Goat and Herring are Equal they both have there qualities but are completely different."
The concept of marriage has been broadened and same sex marriage is now equal to the traditional concept of marriage in the constitution. That is where the equality lies - recognition in the constitution. A goat and a herring are different, but theoretically they can both receive equal protection in the Constitution. That is all that is happening here.
"You have no understanding that the Unionists Stand to lose their Identify and Culture ,and in fact only have to look here to see it .
At independence the Free State had a Unionist population of over 13% and a protestant Minority of 10% , there are now Zero Unionists and 2.8% Prods left , at the same time the Nationalist population up there has grown -give it some thought before you claim that they are the intolerant Bigots ."
Equality is no threat to anybody, unless their identity and culture is based on a belief in inequality. Is it?
Following partition, Southern Unionists were told to make the best of it by the their Northern counterparts, and by and large they did. They ceased to exist, as politically the Union was over, but many quickly identified with the Free State and joined with the new pro-Free State party that became Fine Gael in the 1930s.
The Protestant population in Ireland was in decline from the time of the disestablishment of the Anglican church. It declined further following the treaty as the British administration withdrew. Some others left due to fear for their future in the new state while others left for economic reasons.
The First World War and the Catholic church's Ne Temere decree also contributed to their decline.
Susan McKay, journalist and Belfast born Protestant puts it this way in her book 'Northern Protestants':
"Southern Protestants never were a downtrodden and disadvantaged minority. Economically they were privileged and secure, and research shows them to be overrepresented in the upper reaches of the class structure....there is considerable cultural assimilation rather than isolation or ostracism’ and described myths and overstatements about the oppression of Protestants in the South is a form of secular anti-Catholicism. Southern Protestants have protested in the letters pages of the Irish Times that they were quite happy, and have no wish to be championed by Northern extremists’ (McKay, 353)"
I also never mentioned anything about Ulster Protestants being intolerant bigots. Why did you claim I did?
I just pointed out that they are, and have been historically, fearful of allowing Nationalists the same rights and opportunities and access to life chances as they had.
What have Ulster Unionist got to fear from equality in Northern Ireland anyway? Now that is has largely arrived, the majority of Nationalists are happy to stay in the Union.
1
-
West Brit "I thought you might miss the abortion point."
What point did I miss?
"But frankly you telling me how it is/was for Southern Prods and then backing it up with a Quote that you think is validated because the Women in question was born in Belfast, is either satire or offensive."
This is just "shooting the messenger" because you don't like her message. Supporting an argument with evidence is normal academic convention, the author is not a southern catholic viewing the situation from afar, but a local critiquing her own. There are very few of those in print, so in that context it is a valid reference. Referring to it as satire or offensive without any supporting evidence is the opposite of that and doesn't take your point anywhere.
"You are frankly all over the place anyway on that subject anyway , if we all support FG ( LOL, I do) then obviously we are not looking to reunite with our brethren in the North"
You need to flesh out your points better than this, its too vague for me.
"I don't Believe and did not mean to say that the equality of the citizen regardless of Faith in the North or any other Foreign Jurisdiction was wrong and should be feared- the trouble up there however is people who do not believe that the Unionists are truly Irish and like you think that when they live in a Catholic/Nationalist Ireland it would be reasonable to repeat your statement".
You certainly come across as being dismissive of equality in Northern Ireland. I can't see how equality can infringe on the two identities up there, it can only create one identity over time. I consider Northern Unionists to be Irish, but do they? A few years ago I mentioned that to a Northern Protestant, personally, while attending a conference at the Burrendale Hotel in County Down and he told me in no uncertain terms that he was British. They should reclaim their Irishness and contribute towards it redefinition - its too green anyway. They seem to lack confidence in themselves and their culture - that's how it come across to me at least.
"But their relationships to each other(Herring to Herring , Goat to Goat) will be different and no end of debate , linguistic fascism or referendum's could change that either"
62% of Irish voters disagree with you.
1
-
West Brit "Which was the point I was trying to make to you over abortion ,that you missed ( twice) if your opinion lost that referendum as it has in the past, you would still believe what you do"
I didn't miss it at all, but perhaps I was too subtle for you:
No, because the blanket ban on abortion is a contravention of human rights. Providing for abortion in certain circumstances at the very least is a civil right. Providing marriage equality is also providing a civil right and opposing it, no matter how well meaning, I believe to be a mistake. In that context you are not comparing like with like in my opinion.
Regarding identity in Northern Ireland, people can call themselves what they like, it really doesn't matter what I think. They should just figure it out and let the rest of us know instead of taking offence.
Sorry for touching a nerve, but Northern Ireland is not off limits to me. If I don't know what I'm talking about, surely you can do better than telling me to "shut up". Don't be so petty.
1
-
West Brit "Human rights are not a concept that you get to define and they can obviously overlap -the right to life might for instance Trump the right to murder a inconvenient Child ."
Human rights were well defined and agreed by governments internationally. However, the question of abortion is a tricky one: I think abortion for simple "convenience" purposes is wrong, for example, especially late in the pregnancy. However, the idea that the religious right have that it is wrong to allow a child to die if my pregnant wife's life is under threat is simply ridiculous (or if she is raped etc)
.
"My view for what it is worth is that Abortions are going to Happen, so should be legal and discouraged, the present situation is simply that all but the most impoverished and vulnerable o to England and have one.
Leaving us feeling all warm and virtuous whilst a women can die ' because we are a Catholic Country' I will vote to Liberalise the law".
I totally agree.
"You did not touch a nerve on the 6 ( you simply trot out the usual conventional Rubbish views on the subject ). It was you inane lecture on the position of Prods here that did a bit. Maybe I am petty ,I said we are petty people, I am Irish so maybe have to accept the logic of my own Statement !"
Sure seemed like I touched a nerve. You ridiculed my me and my point, then you dismissed it, before finally telling me shut up, and all without offering a counter argument. And it wasn't about Southern Prods either, you never mentioned them.
If you have something to say, have the confidence to say it. We don't have to agree, but I'm open to intelligent points and you've made a few of them in the past...
1
-
1
-
West Brit "So where is the quote from Carson or Craig telling the Southern Protestants to make the most of it?"
That's not a quote, its a turn of phrase, reflecting an attitude. After all, Ulster Unionists was decided to jettison Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan when formulating the partition option, not to mention the Southern Unionists of non-Ulster Scots stock.
"You say that they came to identify with the Free State - No we continued to identify with our neighbours and fellow Countrymen , and unlike the Minority in the North we were non violent ,so have on the whole supported the least nutty Southern party (FG) but that is not the same as embracing the State".
See below: is this a better explanation? I think this covers both of our positions.
"While the Border Minority Group survey found that Protestants living in the counties of Monaghan, Cavan and Leitrim identified themselves as Protestant first and foremost, Orange second, Ulster Scots third with Irish coming sixth, the other reports found that there was a strong and enduring sense of identity with the Irish state."
Taken from: http://www.seupb.eu/Libraries/Peace_Network_Meetings_and_Events/PN__The_Border_Protestant_Community_and_the_EU_PEACE_Programmes__100205_A_report_to_the_Peace_II_Monitoring_Committee.sflb.ashx
The Irish church was disestablished in 1869 the proportion of Prod's fell a little in the following 5 years then it remained fairly constant up until the 1911 census at around 10% to 12 % . There was no census in 1921 due to civil unrest, in 1926 the Free state had one and it fallen below 8% and continued to do so every time it was counted , until the turn of this century."
Yes, they left.
"The 'return of the British administration is the biggest lie of all- most of the administration was Catholic and Irish and continued to work for the Free State ,about 1700 civil servants returned to the UK and the military had never been counted due to the lack of 1921 census so no black and tans in your totals."
I'm not sure I follow this. While the exact records are destroyed, it should be easy to make a stab at numbers of troops in Ireland in 1921, and Civil Servants. Do you have any supporting references?
"Fear for their Future Yes"
Yes, it was a major motivator.
Economic reasons,why would they have more reason to leave for that reason then a Catholic ?"
They didn't. They would have left for the same reasons. They were economically better off in the UK.
"As for offensive and arrogant, that's how it felt to me but that is of course subjective."
I'm sorry you felt that way.
I would identify two native Protestant traditions in the Republic: the Ulster Scots and the Anglo-Irish. Would you agree?
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
@Halotest100
The Irish are the UKs masters now, certainly in relation to the EU.
The Irish have shaped your Brexit to a point where you are all now pretending you never wanted a deal in the first place. Too funny. When the UK comes looking for a trade deal it will be the Irish you will have to suck up to, in order to ensure you get a good deal. Ireland will be in your corner, but will not tolerate any perfidy.
Once there is a deal the Irish can live with, Dublin will give the nod to the US Congress not to block any trade deal between the US and the UK. The US will be your other master, dictating the terms of any trade agreement as the UK will be a rule take, a vassal used to Make America Great Again. Your foreign policy will continue to be determined by the US State Department, and it appears you have already surrendered selection of your Ambassador to the US to President himself.
This will give you all more time to pick your own fruit and other hard work. It will be hard, as the English are the least productive workforce in the entire OECD.
By the way, Ireland joined the Euro freely, and the Germans ceased approving the Irish budget in 2012. Ireland has its own Refugee Policy which it implements and it takes in relatively few refugees.
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
@superdan8286 Some observations:
There are about 200 nations in the world as I understand it, and you correctly point out that many of those countries are poor, indicating that they are unlikely to be customers for the UKs high-end products - which limits the UKs opportunities with them. But most other countries are, including these poor ones, creating trade blocs or are strengthening existing ones with their neighbours. Countries trade more with their neighbours because it adds value to our exports - the further you have to send your stuff, the more expensive it is to send it, the lower your profits. In that light, pure economics, Brexit makes no sense.
You say that a country should sink or swim by its own merits; I would say countries, especially small ones, live or die by the quality of their strategic thinking, especially in relation to the tyranny of geography. In that respect, the UK is a small country now, off the coast of the EU, and against a much larger bloc that will continue to be an influence on British decision making without the UK having a chance to shape that influence; China, the emerging superpower, and the USA, the existing superpower, are both rich and have much larger economies. Both of these will expect the UK to be rule takers in any formal economic relationship and you will have to sacrifice some sovereignty in order increase British prosperity in the future. In that light too, the obsession with sovereignty makes no sense.
The remainers are defeated, they were routed in the 2019 General Election. They are an irrelevance now. Still, there seems to be a tendency among Brexiters to hold them accountable for the EU not begging for a deal or whatever. I'm not sure what they really expected. In any case, I would be concerned as to where the blame for the unrealised expectations of Brexit is being placed, because unlike you, they really believed that the EU would fall at the UKs every demand in order to get any kind of a deal, because they liked the idea of the UK being that important.
I'm not British, but I have been really struck by how Brexit has exposed pre-existing fault-lines in UK society. One example is that it seems to have energised Scottish nationalists once again and I think there are English people too that want England to leave the UK. Do you think the break up of the UK is now inevitable? Will we see an independent England in the coming years?
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1