Comments by "Taint ABird" (@taintabird23) on "Ireland: Same-sex marriage referendum - BBC News" video.
-
6
-
3
-
3
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
West Brit I voted in favour of the Presidential amendment on the same the day as the marriage equality referendum. It was defeated. That is democracy. You have to be 35 years old to run for President and that is not likely to change any time soon. Like some who feel marriage equality is wrong, I am disappointed but I will accept it.
Regarding the abortion referendum, I don't think you are comparing like with like. Marriage equality takes nothing from anyone, it gives something to those who were excluded before - but its a choice, we are not all obliged to marry members of the same sex. Not even gay people have this obligation.
In your abortion hypothesis, a retreat to a more conservative position does take something from others - in many cases, a free choice.
The Constitutional ban on abortion was lobbied for by an influential conservative Catholic group who intended to ensure that others would not have a choice. Having a blanket ban is not the mark of a free and socially inclusive society. It infringes Civil Rights. Marriage Equality does not impinge on anyone's Civil Rights, so why would No voters feel threatened by that?
Perhaps it has a parallel: in Northern Ireland, equality for Nationalists has also led to Unionist and Loyalist communities feeling a sense of loss. This is counter intuitive but is common in societies undergoing change - some people don't like it. For some reason equality between Nationalists and Unionists makes some Unionists feel that their Culture is being eroded. As with the anti-marriage equality voters, people wonder what is next and draw all kinds of usually ridiculous conclusions. Fear does that, fear of change, and fear was behind the answers Unionists had to Nationalist equality - civil and social exclusion.
The Republic has traditionally been a socially conservative country, and those who did not conform suffered appallingly for it, being put in institutions and shunned. These were the southern solutions, but like our Northern counterparts we are maturing in our own way.
Unlike the Presidential amendment, marriage equality and abortion are considered to be Civil Rights issues. Unlike Marriage Equality, the abortion referendum will be much more complex, between those who want a blanket ban, others who want it available in limited circumstances and the those who want a liberal free choice. It is a much more complex matter than Marriage Equality, in my opinion. While there are no losers when a civil right is protected, in the case of abortion the argument will be about when the Civil Right of the unborn becomes the issue I suspect.
2
-
1
-
West Brit "Your point that nobody would lose by the my speculative Abortion referendum , shows that you have no respect for the people who disagree with you ( us in this case) as they think that the foetus is a Human Life from conception so many 'people ' have the Ultimate to lose -Life."
I disagree that it shows a lack of respect, I totally respect their point, I just don't agree with it. People should be free to chose. Not everyone shares their beliefs on a blanket ban.
"...but they can't be Equal any more then you can say that a Goat and Herring are Equal they both have there qualities but are completely different."
The concept of marriage has been broadened and same sex marriage is now equal to the traditional concept of marriage in the constitution. That is where the equality lies - recognition in the constitution. A goat and a herring are different, but theoretically they can both receive equal protection in the Constitution. That is all that is happening here.
"You have no understanding that the Unionists Stand to lose their Identify and Culture ,and in fact only have to look here to see it .
At independence the Free State had a Unionist population of over 13% and a protestant Minority of 10% , there are now Zero Unionists and 2.8% Prods left , at the same time the Nationalist population up there has grown -give it some thought before you claim that they are the intolerant Bigots ."
Equality is no threat to anybody, unless their identity and culture is based on a belief in inequality. Is it?
Following partition, Southern Unionists were told to make the best of it by the their Northern counterparts, and by and large they did. They ceased to exist, as politically the Union was over, but many quickly identified with the Free State and joined with the new pro-Free State party that became Fine Gael in the 1930s.
The Protestant population in Ireland was in decline from the time of the disestablishment of the Anglican church. It declined further following the treaty as the British administration withdrew. Some others left due to fear for their future in the new state while others left for economic reasons.
The First World War and the Catholic church's Ne Temere decree also contributed to their decline.
Susan McKay, journalist and Belfast born Protestant puts it this way in her book 'Northern Protestants':
"Southern Protestants never were a downtrodden and disadvantaged minority. Economically they were privileged and secure, and research shows them to be overrepresented in the upper reaches of the class structure....there is considerable cultural assimilation rather than isolation or ostracism’ and described myths and overstatements about the oppression of Protestants in the South is a form of secular anti-Catholicism. Southern Protestants have protested in the letters pages of the Irish Times that they were quite happy, and have no wish to be championed by Northern extremists’ (McKay, 353)"
I also never mentioned anything about Ulster Protestants being intolerant bigots. Why did you claim I did?
I just pointed out that they are, and have been historically, fearful of allowing Nationalists the same rights and opportunities and access to life chances as they had.
What have Ulster Unionist got to fear from equality in Northern Ireland anyway? Now that is has largely arrived, the majority of Nationalists are happy to stay in the Union.
1
-
West Brit "I thought you might miss the abortion point."
What point did I miss?
"But frankly you telling me how it is/was for Southern Prods and then backing it up with a Quote that you think is validated because the Women in question was born in Belfast, is either satire or offensive."
This is just "shooting the messenger" because you don't like her message. Supporting an argument with evidence is normal academic convention, the author is not a southern catholic viewing the situation from afar, but a local critiquing her own. There are very few of those in print, so in that context it is a valid reference. Referring to it as satire or offensive without any supporting evidence is the opposite of that and doesn't take your point anywhere.
"You are frankly all over the place anyway on that subject anyway , if we all support FG ( LOL, I do) then obviously we are not looking to reunite with our brethren in the North"
You need to flesh out your points better than this, its too vague for me.
"I don't Believe and did not mean to say that the equality of the citizen regardless of Faith in the North or any other Foreign Jurisdiction was wrong and should be feared- the trouble up there however is people who do not believe that the Unionists are truly Irish and like you think that when they live in a Catholic/Nationalist Ireland it would be reasonable to repeat your statement".
You certainly come across as being dismissive of equality in Northern Ireland. I can't see how equality can infringe on the two identities up there, it can only create one identity over time. I consider Northern Unionists to be Irish, but do they? A few years ago I mentioned that to a Northern Protestant, personally, while attending a conference at the Burrendale Hotel in County Down and he told me in no uncertain terms that he was British. They should reclaim their Irishness and contribute towards it redefinition - its too green anyway. They seem to lack confidence in themselves and their culture - that's how it come across to me at least.
"But their relationships to each other(Herring to Herring , Goat to Goat) will be different and no end of debate , linguistic fascism or referendum's could change that either"
62% of Irish voters disagree with you.
1
-
West Brit "Which was the point I was trying to make to you over abortion ,that you missed ( twice) if your opinion lost that referendum as it has in the past, you would still believe what you do"
I didn't miss it at all, but perhaps I was too subtle for you:
No, because the blanket ban on abortion is a contravention of human rights. Providing for abortion in certain circumstances at the very least is a civil right. Providing marriage equality is also providing a civil right and opposing it, no matter how well meaning, I believe to be a mistake. In that context you are not comparing like with like in my opinion.
Regarding identity in Northern Ireland, people can call themselves what they like, it really doesn't matter what I think. They should just figure it out and let the rest of us know instead of taking offence.
Sorry for touching a nerve, but Northern Ireland is not off limits to me. If I don't know what I'm talking about, surely you can do better than telling me to "shut up". Don't be so petty.
1
-
West Brit "Human rights are not a concept that you get to define and they can obviously overlap -the right to life might for instance Trump the right to murder a inconvenient Child ."
Human rights were well defined and agreed by governments internationally. However, the question of abortion is a tricky one: I think abortion for simple "convenience" purposes is wrong, for example, especially late in the pregnancy. However, the idea that the religious right have that it is wrong to allow a child to die if my pregnant wife's life is under threat is simply ridiculous (or if she is raped etc)
.
"My view for what it is worth is that Abortions are going to Happen, so should be legal and discouraged, the present situation is simply that all but the most impoverished and vulnerable o to England and have one.
Leaving us feeling all warm and virtuous whilst a women can die ' because we are a Catholic Country' I will vote to Liberalise the law".
I totally agree.
"You did not touch a nerve on the 6 ( you simply trot out the usual conventional Rubbish views on the subject ). It was you inane lecture on the position of Prods here that did a bit. Maybe I am petty ,I said we are petty people, I am Irish so maybe have to accept the logic of my own Statement !"
Sure seemed like I touched a nerve. You ridiculed my me and my point, then you dismissed it, before finally telling me shut up, and all without offering a counter argument. And it wasn't about Southern Prods either, you never mentioned them.
If you have something to say, have the confidence to say it. We don't have to agree, but I'm open to intelligent points and you've made a few of them in the past...
1
-
1
-
West Brit "So where is the quote from Carson or Craig telling the Southern Protestants to make the most of it?"
That's not a quote, its a turn of phrase, reflecting an attitude. After all, Ulster Unionists was decided to jettison Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan when formulating the partition option, not to mention the Southern Unionists of non-Ulster Scots stock.
"You say that they came to identify with the Free State - No we continued to identify with our neighbours and fellow Countrymen , and unlike the Minority in the North we were non violent ,so have on the whole supported the least nutty Southern party (FG) but that is not the same as embracing the State".
See below: is this a better explanation? I think this covers both of our positions.
"While the Border Minority Group survey found that Protestants living in the counties of Monaghan, Cavan and Leitrim identified themselves as Protestant first and foremost, Orange second, Ulster Scots third with Irish coming sixth, the other reports found that there was a strong and enduring sense of identity with the Irish state."
Taken from: http://www.seupb.eu/Libraries/Peace_Network_Meetings_and_Events/PN__The_Border_Protestant_Community_and_the_EU_PEACE_Programmes__100205_A_report_to_the_Peace_II_Monitoring_Committee.sflb.ashx
The Irish church was disestablished in 1869 the proportion of Prod's fell a little in the following 5 years then it remained fairly constant up until the 1911 census at around 10% to 12 % . There was no census in 1921 due to civil unrest, in 1926 the Free state had one and it fallen below 8% and continued to do so every time it was counted , until the turn of this century."
Yes, they left.
"The 'return of the British administration is the biggest lie of all- most of the administration was Catholic and Irish and continued to work for the Free State ,about 1700 civil servants returned to the UK and the military had never been counted due to the lack of 1921 census so no black and tans in your totals."
I'm not sure I follow this. While the exact records are destroyed, it should be easy to make a stab at numbers of troops in Ireland in 1921, and Civil Servants. Do you have any supporting references?
"Fear for their Future Yes"
Yes, it was a major motivator.
Economic reasons,why would they have more reason to leave for that reason then a Catholic ?"
They didn't. They would have left for the same reasons. They were economically better off in the UK.
"As for offensive and arrogant, that's how it felt to me but that is of course subjective."
I'm sorry you felt that way.
I would identify two native Protestant traditions in the Republic: the Ulster Scots and the Anglo-Irish. Would you agree?
1