Comments by "Taint ABird" (@taintabird23) on "Channel 4 News"
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@tsu8003 American's aren't pretending to be Irish, they're Amercian - when they say they are Irish they are referring to their heritage, as you well know. The very reason these people are American is because of a previous time the British shafted the Irish, and they don't forget that. 'Pathetic', indeed.
Your defense of the British empire is laughable, ignorant and not unexpected. The letters of British commander Jeffery Amherst indicated genocidal intent when he authorized the deliberate use of disease-infected blankets as a biological weapon against indigenous populations during the 1763 Pontiac's Rebellion, saying, "You will do well to try to Innoculate the Indians by means of Blanketts, as well as to try every other method that can serve to extirpate this execreble race", and instructing his subordinates, "I need only add, I wish to hear of no prisoners should any of the villains be met with arms."
At one point during the famine in Ireland, a member of the British establishment boasted in the newspapers that a native Irishman will soon be as rare on the western coast of Ireland as a native American is on Manhattan island.
And there you have it, that's your 'Great' empire for you.
Lying arsehole.
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@Porkcylinder It looks like my post did not go down well. Hold a mirror up to certain English and this is the kind of response you are going to get. Let's take a look:
'yes that’s right if you want to play semantics and skew the facts you can make figures say anything you want but I thought you were a real person not some c*nting robot or politician.'
You think I'm a bot? Facts are fact mate, the proportion of the Irish population that was born in Britain (mainly England) is higher than the proportion of the UK population that was born in Ireland. It was not always like that, but is has been since about 2000. It has been increasing since Brexit.
'You’re in no position to make your sneaky thinly veiled threats anymore Great Britain is leaving and if need be on WTO'
Nobody cares. Seriously, since Ireland won on the backstop issue, nobody cares what the English do to themselves, it is not our issue. You voted for it, you live by it.
'We don’t need to take advice from anyone least of all the Irish.'
You badly need advising, but England is in the thrall of an incoherent nationalism that makes it think it needs nobody. We will be there to pick you up when the penny drops.
'We know you’re just trying to agitate to break up the UK along with you spiteful chums in Brussels . '
Oh please, the English are doing that by themselves. The British Demos is in decline, and we know from the last GE in December that it was won by English, Scottish and Irish nationalisms. With the English dictating the futures of the Scots and the Irish because they are comfortable with democratic deficits when it suits them, it will in time lead to the break up of the UK. People just aren't into that level of weapons-grade hypocrisy anymore. The English need to grow a pair, admit they are a nation, and become independent of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. You cannot hide behind your neighbour's forever. Think of how much money you would save!!
'Sorry boys it ain’t happening get used to it.'
It started with devolution over 20 years ago. Brexit is just the second stage, the English acting out in response.
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@Unknown-pi5ll #so you admit 70 million Irish people still haven’t returned to Ireland .'
I'm beginning to see why The Sun is the biggest selling newspaper in the UK.
'If Ireland is so great they would returned by now'
Why? They made the countries they emigrated to great. But many of them are Irish passport holders
'Actually they left because of the potato famine which was a natural disaster it was caused by A disease called late blight it’s destroyed the leaves and edible roots of the potato plants'
About 2 million left during the famine. While the failure of the potato crop was natural, the famine was caused by the British government's response to it, wedding as they were to placing Irish people ahead of the economic doctrine.
'We saved as many ethnic Irish people as we can from genocide by allowing them to escape to America and move in the UK mostly Scotland because of that there is 14,000,000 ethnic Irish people currently living in the UK mostly Scotland .'
Genocide? I never mentioned that the British government committed genocide, that's your doing. However, the famine was characterized by the response of the British government. In the summer of 1846 the British government fed three million people efficiently and cheaply, but then withdrew it, declared the famine over and allowed the Irish to starve. The British government did not 'allow' people to escape, and most of those who did, did so using their own resources.
The famine in Ireland was manmade.
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@ yes
I'm confusing nothing.
The European Union IS united - you only have to look at how the 26 backed Ireland in relation to the border to see it.
Brexiters expected the EU to throw Ireland under a bus because it was small and it was assumed that the Germans would hold it in the same contempt as the Brexiters did; they expected an EU squabble about concessions to the UK in order to give it a 'cake and eat it' deal; if all else failed, the cavalry in the shape of Audi, Mercedes and BMW would ride into the fray at the 11th hour...
The EU has never flinched.
You describe Brexit as a type of 'crusade' to save Europe from itself - it is nothing of the sort.
It the self-serving agenda of an elite cabal in your country that are intent on gambling with your future in order to expand their personal wealth. These people are gamblers by profession, they are Brexit proof, and if/when it falls flat on its face, Brexit will simply be added to list of England's heroic failures which includes Dunkirk, The Charge of the Light Brigade, Scott in the Antarctic, the Franklin expedition etc.
Your explanation of Europe is full of age old English tropes about Europe: England v Europe, Protestantism v Catholicism, Freedom v Tyranny etc. You stopped short of the usual conclusion, working your list of through to Napoleon and Hitler
Nothing to see here.
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@ Hercule Holmes
You did not give up your empire voluntarily, as you claim. The Atlantic Charter, dictated by the Americans and signed by Churchill gave the commitment allowing self-determination for all peoples.
This is an American value, not a British one.
The English are fine with the subjugation of others as part of the Empire - apparently it was the nicest empire in human history - they only claim to value democracy and freedom when they imagine they are being oppressed themselves.
Incoherent buffonery.
You better get used to the idea of the UK going bankrupt: post Brexit, the UK will have higher inflation, less purchasing power, a weaker pound. The UK has a huge set of imbalances, huge trade deficits, huge budget deficits, people are living way above their savings and they have to pay it back too much consumer borrowing – the household budget is getting worse, the trade deficit is getting worse, their borrowing is getting worse, at a time when they are leaving their biggest market with its economies of scale; inflation will mean it will be harder to pay it back.
Project fear? Project reality that is pending...
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'The Civil Services as stated as a fact they are fully prepared for the inevitable leaving under WTO terms.'
Yes, they will be prepared for food rationing ...sorry, the triaging of food etc...good.
'It's a fact that May's worst terms of leaving anything in recorded history will be rejected in parliament.'
It certainly looks like that.
'This does not exclude or even delay negotiations on a trade deal, because they do not begin until our membership has ended.'
The real fun only begins when you leave.
First, you will be leaving without any deal with enormous consequences for your country. You will be joining the following countries who trade under WTO and have no other trade deals: Holy See, Mauritania, Monaco, Montenegro, Palau, Timor-Leste, Sao Tome and Principe, Serbia, Somalia, South Sudan, Sudan and last but not least.....Western Sahara.
This is the complete list of the nations who trade only under WTO rules. Appropriate. A clear indication of BREXITEER's ambitions.
Your country will require a Trade Deal with the EU, which of course will require the payment of £39 Billion just to open discussions.
The humiliation begins for you all then.
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@bellascott6478 The animosity in your part of Ireland pre-dates the Troubles and is unique to this island. Many NI people who visit the republic at this time of year do get out because the feel uncomfortable, not because they necessarily want to - as you well know.
Its a shame that St Patrick's Day is not celebrated by unionists anymore, St Patrick was the patron of Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of the island and is buried in Downpatrick. I don't know what St Patrick's Day is like in NI, but in the republic it is a secular event celebrated by everybody: Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews and immigrants. It is celebrated all over the world, even in countries with zero links to Ireland. The Irish Guards regiment, which is full of NI Protestants with some members from the republic also, celebrates it, so I don't see why Protestants in NI don't even hold their own parades to mark the day. It appears to me that Protestants don't like sharing the national saint with Catholics.
I'm not pretending for one minute that Catholics are entirely innocent. I'm well aware that NI can be antagonistic towards Protestants in Northern Ireland and I have no time for it, so no bubbles have been burst. I understand that rioting and general disorder is as much a source of fun for bored nationalists as they are for bored unionists on a long summer evening. Btw, what are the 'holy lands'? Is it a place or a slang word for something? Haven't heard that before.
I have a couple of questions for you:
1) what is unionist/loyalist culture to you, and is there a difference between the two?
2) what would you fear from a united Ireland if there was a majority for it in the future?
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@bellascott6478 Thank you for your response, Bella.
So apart from the bands, and the parades, the Orange Order, loyalty to the queen what other things make up Protestant culture in NI? There is football and rugby, though Catholics play those also...what else do you do that is different? And in your opinion why do Ulster Unionists feel the need to be culturally, politically and socially separate from other Irish people even now? It pre-dates the troubles and even partition.
The Irish experience of British rule is quite different to the Unionist experience. Ireland was the only country in Europe where the majority were ruled by a minority who had a different language, customs, culture, from the majority.
Wishing for things to remain the same is perfectly legitimate, but why do you think you would have to give up your identity in a united Ireland? Any united Ireland will have to be negotiated and Polish, Brazilian and other cultures in Ireland don't have to give up their identity - so why would the Unionists? The notion of multi-layered identities is already a value upon which the Irish state is run now, and it is not Irish policy that unionists or Ulster-Scots do not have a right to be in Ireland. There is already an Ulster-Scots population in the Republic and one of them is a government minister.
We are about the same age, I suspect. During the Great War , one of my great grandfathers, a retired RIC man, served in a special constabulary established in Gretna where a huge munitions factory was built. He was Home Ruler, a follower of John Redmond - he was an Irish nationalist serving King and Country. His best friend, an RIC man, was killed by the IRA in an ambush on a train at Knocklong County Limerick in 1919. Another great Grandfather, a veteran of the Boer War, served at home training volunteers for the British Army during the Great War. He had a brother who was in the Royal Artillery in India when that war broke out and arrived in France in December 1914. I only found out that he was in Salonkia with the 10th Irish Division just last week. He survived and lived out his life in in Ireland, dying in 1973. He had another brother in the Royal Irish Regiment who survived the war, but was never right afterwards and he died in a mental home in 1980. He fought in one particular battle in 1915 and survived, but I discovered yet another relative from a different branch of the family was KIA in that same battle in the same Regiment, having only been at the front a few weeks. So we have something in common?
Up to 2016, I didn't see a united Ireland as being likely or necessary. But since Brexit it would seem that the ground is shifting, not so much because of what is happening on the island of Ireland, but because of what is happening on the other island over which none of us having any control. It seems to me that unity is an issue that will not be going away anyway soon, and my fear is that London will try to dump NI in the future even though the GFA prevents them from doing so. What are your thoughts on that possibility?
Don't be so defensive - I'm only trying to learn your point of view. Nobody is suggesting you should be ashamed of anything.
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@quiteamazingtoo The British government refused to stop exports of food leaving Ireland, as it was wedded to the Laissez Faire economic system. In the summer of 1846 the UK government successfully fed 3 million people in the west of Ireland, cheaply and efficiently. At the first sight of a new potato crop, they declared the famine over and withdrew the aid. When that crop failed, the refused provide further assistance, and instructed the Irish poor law system to deal with the problem. The Irish Poor law system was simply unable to cope. The British knew this because of a report from 1838 which stated that any large scale distress in Ireland would leave the Poor Law system overwhelmed.
As for the common heritage, those who were died in the famine or had to emigrate because of it were Irish speaking, with a different culture, customs and to those who ruled them. They did not speak English. Any common heritage exists because the Irish gave up theirs.
If you want to understand Ireland, even modern Ireland, you need to understand the famine. Sadly, it is not taught in British schools.
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@ A Westenholz
No, Brexit is not like that all
If you go out for a pack of cigarettes you know where you are going, how long it will take and when you will be back. Coming back is an intention. You will know how much the cigarettes cost and how you will get there. You have, in fact, a rudimentary plan.
Brexit characterized by the complete absence of a plan.
Instead you have an inarticulate England nationalism, taking the whole of the UK off on a mystery tour to an imagined pleasant land called Brexit, without a map, food, agreed means of transport or money. Instead it is simply equipped with the faith that it will all be alright and you will get there - if everyone just believes hard enough.
In the end UK just finds itself lost and simply has to come home, the way you came - and they will find the door open at the EU, once they realise their limitations and stop acting up.
That's Brexit.
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@ Kojii Naz
I am a historian by profession and have an understanding as to the current thinking in relation to Historiography. I have a number of points for you to consider, some of which may be difficult.
First of all Brexit has highlighted the widespread ignorance of Ireland in the UK. This has come as a great shock as, while Irish nationalism has evolved and matured, no national self-examination has ever taken place in the UK - specifically among the English. In Ireland we somehow assumed that there was a genuine shift in attitudes as Ireland, Irish culture and Irish people were increasingly portrayed in positive terms. It appears this was just a veneer.
Secondly, Brexit has also exposed the extent to which there is a crisis of identity in the UK, or should I say, among the English. The English have never come to terms with their place in the world post-empire, have never come to terms with the legacy of their empire in any truly balanced way.
Thirdly, the way history is studied has changed. In the past, history was written by the winner from their own point of view. Ulster Unionists, for example believe that there was nothing in Ulster until their colony was established and they brought modernity to the place; these days it is understood that there is another perspective, that of the person who experienced the colonisation and those of a native Irish identity would be aware of a different experience of the same events. Many English people, are unprepared and too insecure in their 'national skin' to come face to face with an alternative perspective.
Such attitudes reveal a lack of understanding of the nature and effects of colonial conquest and rule. There is insufficient education,about the realities of empire. Historical analysis of empire has also tended to evaluate the British empire either “neutrally”, or offer a triumphalist narrative that pointing out the benefits of empire for the British while ignoring its devastating impact on the peoples whose lands were taken, cultures transformed, and economic well-being was decimated.
Does this narrative sound familiar?: while the Spanish, Portuguese, French, Belgians and Germans exploited and abused, the British empire brought ideas of protection for lesser races and fostered their incremental development. With British tutelage colonised peoples could become, eventually, as competent, as knowledgeable, as “civilised” as Britain itself. These platitudes have been repeated time and again – they are still at the heart of most popular representations of the British Empire in my experience.
And don't get me started on romanticism around the Second World War!
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@anneclarke3905 With respect, for me, your post seems to be rather incoherent. It makes no sense.
The UK voted to leave the EU, and that includes its trade deals. It cannot follow surely that the decision to exclude Northern Ireland from EU trade deals is 'punishment' for the UKs vote to leave...because the UK voted leave, it was what it wanted even if Northern Ireland voted to remain. Northern Ireland is still part of the UK. Would the Unionists not feel that they were being 'pushed' into a united Ireland against their will if they were included in EU Trade deals and Britain was not? After all, the Irish government wanted NI to remain in EU trade deals too and I remember that being said when NI was allowed to remain in the customs union.
The UK voted to leave, Brexiters tell us, because they did not need the EU. I don't understand why Brexiters voted to leave the EU and then expected to be able to have all the things they liked about it, and then claim 'punishment' if they don't get it. When humans behave like that we consider them to be spoiled, don't we? You don't like unelected people who run the EU, but you want to benefit from the parts of their work that you like. I can't understand that.
It is also difficult for me to see how the EU 'weaponised' the border issue when Brexiters had no response to the problem to begin with. [It seems to me now that the assumption was that Dublin would leave the EU with the UK, because there is a widespread belief among Brexiters that the Republic totally depends on the UK economically. This only occurred to me recently and I think this is the root of the problem. The understanding of the Republics economy among British based Brexiters is about 50 years out of date.] In frustration, the Brexiters decided it was being 'weaponised' against Brexit. It was an explanation for the failure of the EU to come to heel as the Brexiters assumed they would and it is hugely regrettable - they cannot accept their miscalculation.
It is difficult for me to see how keeping NI out of EU trade deals is pushing for a united Ireland when it is keeping the NI in UK trade deals only. Do you understand what I mean? It seems to me that the biggest threat to NI remaining in the UK comes from the Tory party and the SNP. The Tory party could possibly have tried to discard NI in order to get Brexit but for the GFA is preventing them from doing so and we know from how the Tories treated the DUP and from polls within the membership of the party that they don't really care about NI or Scotland. Brexit has also raised the prospect of the Scottish leaving the UK in a referendum in a few years time. None of us on this island, north or south, seem to have any control on what is going on in Britain. It's not about us, for once!
As for the security at the border, I assume this has to do with COVID-19? It is obviously a temporary thing and not permanent as Brexit is.
Brexit is bad for all of us. You and I voted in a referendum to bring peace to this island back in 1998 and everything was working out fine. The Queen came to visit Dublin and Cork in 2011, I wasn't all that interested in the historic relevance of it, but I was surprised when I actually found the visit really moving. There were excellent relations North and South, East and West. We in the south have evolved and changed to become a more inclusive country, being more inclusive of the British part of our history and being more questioning of the sacred cows of our culture. In the south we evolved to embrace a civic nationalism rather than the binary type of nationalism that fuels Brexit and are all the more confident for it. Then Brexit happened and we in the south discovered that no such changes were happening among the English outside London. They know nothing about us, north or south, and care even less. That was a genuine shock down here I can tell you, it was like being thrust into a cold shower.
Anyway, here is hoping that the outcome of the negotiations are not too severe for any of us and that we can make the best of a bad situation, whatever the outcome.
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@bellascott6478 Since the end of the Troubles, Irish families have been researching their ancestors who were in the British Army in the Great War - almost every family seems to have some connection. Some of these families also had family members in the IRA during the War of independence. So you can see how complex things were in the south, they were not as black and white as they are in NI.
I have to say, under the old Stormont regime, up to 1969 or whatever, there was a great deal of discrimination against Catholics in NI. There must have been, as the Catholics never accepted partition and that is why they were seen as a threat. It is not like that now of course, there is much more equality. In Irish culture, we take every opportunity to better ourselves when we get it. I'm not sure that exists in Unionist culture. For reasons I don't understand, it appears that there some sort of 'shame' attached to doing what the nationalists do. It could a 'British thing', because British visitors to Ireland would often sneer at Ireland seeking transfers of money from the EU to improve the infrastructure of the country, and there was always a sense they saw it as shameful. In the run up to the Brexit vote in the UK, it became apparent to me that even in Labour held councils in the North of England there was a resistance toward applying for European money to improve and develop their cities for their people. Instead there was resentment towards the EU and even resentment towards Ireland for having a 'begging bowl'. I sense there is the same resentment in Unionist culture towards Irish nationalists for improving themselves instead of being stoic about their. Today, Irish people a proud that Ireland is now a nett contributor to the EU and others are benefitting from us.
Having said all that, near where I live in the republic, a large number of Catholic refugees from Belfast settled in the early 1970s. An old boy who worked with the Council in those days told me that the Belfast people were very forward in speaking up for their rights and entitlements, and were much less easy going the provision of services than the local population. Here put it down to Belfast people having to fight for the entitlements in NI. Maybe its a Northern thing.
If there is going to be a united Ireland, nobody wants it right now. Brexit is not the context for it. Left to its own devises it would be way off in the future, maybe after our day. But as i said in my previous post, there are other factors at play now. It will have to be confronted sooner or later.
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@shelleyphilcox4743 NI did vote in the EU referendum, but a small number of Irish nationalists there don't engage in British elections or referenda on the grounds that it is a foreign country.
The rest of your post is interesting and rational but seems to be based on the notion of an existing British Demos (I think). The overarching British identity that held the UK together has been diminishing, probably for decades but almost certainly since devolution in the late 90s. The 2011 census showed that huge numbers of people in England no longer identify as British, but as English (particularly outside London); large numbers of Scots no longer identify as British as we can see from the growth of the SNP, and in NI, those who identify as Irish or Northern Irish are on the cusp of being in the majority. Wales is interesting. The Welsh have a weaker nationalist movement than the Scots or the Irish, but they would probably have voted to remain but for the 12% of the Welsh population who identified as English in the 2011 census (English retirees who brought their politics with them?).
In that context it is no longer coherent to have 55 million English people deciding the futures of Scots, Northern Irish and Welsh with different identities. There is a fundamental democratic deficit in having the English dominating the political landscape in that way, just as there is a leaving the English with no devolved assembly. Furthermore, Brexit is underpinned by values and insecurities that are part of English nationalism and are not shared by the Scots and the Northern Irish. I think this is significant too.
If we take it that the UK was established as a means to run an empire, then it would appear that the union has run its course. There is a good argument to be made that the break up of the union is already underway.
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@shelleyphilcox4743 That's the thing about English nationalism. Nobody has been speaking for it. Sure, you had UKIP on the fringe and perhaps they would have had more of a presence in the HoC if there had been a more democratic voting system, but they don't represent all of English nationalism. The Tories seem to have taken on the role, and in doing so have alienated the Scots even further.
English nationalism is a product of insecurity. I think the emergence of the SNP and devolution for the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish has left many English people with an identity crisis. The Empire is gone, the traditional industries have gone too, there have been decades of government mismanagement by all parties, and no devolution for England. Areas where immigration is least evident are among the places where fear of immigration and loss of identity appear to be highest. This is odd because English cultural expression is to be found everywhere in the world.
The Scots have a clear vision as to where they want to go, but the English do not - do they stay in the EU, or do they pivot to the US? All the focus is on a lack of democracy in Brussels, when in fact the lack of democracy in the UK is having a much bigger impact on the lives of English people. English nationalism is organic, it has emerged by itself without any clear and coherent leadership or vision. In due course it will evolve into a movement that will seek an English nation, English money for English people, English laws for English people - if the Scots don't leave first.
The Scots know what they want, by and large. They want away from English dominance and most Scottish nationalists want to find their place in the EU. They are comfortable with the EUs civic nationalism and feel comfortable with being Scottish and European. Irish nationalism emerged from a cultural movement that was clear and coherent over a century ago It used to be obsessed with 'not being British' and obsessed with sovereignty and territory, but the peace process in NI is based on the notion that you can have a multi-layered identity: be Irish, British, Irish and British, Irish and Black or Muslim or whatever, under a shared EU identity. Irish nationalism is not about borders anymore but about people. The Scots and the Irish are confident and understand that sharing sovereignty with other small countries helps to amplify it, while English nationalism seeks to horde sovereignty in an ivory tower. That points to an insecurity rather than confidence.
Welsh nationalism is weaker but is also based on a model similar to Scotland and Ireland. Its just not as widespread. Wales is harder to read as it is much more influence by the English media than Scotland or Northern Ireland. However, Welsh speaking North Wales had the highest vote in favour of remaining in the EU in the whole of the UK. This points to confidence and a rebuke of insecurities about the EU so prevalent in England.
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@bumblebee5818 'You are dreaming, and misinformed if you think there were no controversial parades in NI last year, they have even exported them to Scotland where there were a number of clashes between the Orange and the Green last Autumn.'
I said this year, and Scotland is not in Northern Ireland.
'I look to the future and apply logic rather than any romantic viewpoint of the quality of the people of the UK.'
You look to the future, and apply denial. Northern Ireland has for the first time more nationalist MPs than Unionist. This is because the population of NI, its political demographic, is changing and Nationalists will soon be in the majority if they are not in the majority already; secondly, moderate unionists can see the writing on the wall are increasingly open to a deal with the republic, but first they have to negotiate with themselves and get on the same page; thirdly, the post-GFA generation is less wedded to the NI tribalism and is more open to the values espoused in the republic and the EU than those in Brexit Britain; finally, the future of the UK is out of the hands of unionists, and it is only a matter of time before Scotland becomes independent. Then there will be no union to remain in. This is one of the other issues moderate unionists are considering right now.
Next year, the UK will be faced with a constitutional crisis because of a Scotland seeking a second referendum on independence and a Tory party which has no representation in Scotland wishing to thwart it. The democratic deficit is untenable.
Suspend your denial and watch this space.
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@robw7676 Your analysis with the United States is simplistic. In the Italian case, just like the that of Greece, economic problems are essentially structural. The Greeks only export feta and olives, while the Italians are excellent entrepreneurs and useless innovators - they cannot seem to respond to changing international economy. It is also a notoriously unstable political entity. It is easier to blame Brussels and the Euro than deal with some hard political and economic realities.
The Anglo-sphere (Empire 2.0) is a product of the English imagination, and if it were ever to come to pass, it's centre of gravity would not be in London but Washington DC. The American's only care about themselves, and will devour the UK in any trade negotiations as it is, and they don't need any 'Anglosphere'. In the antipodes the Aussies are on record as saying their priority is with an EU trade deal and both they and the Kiwis are strengthening their economic ties with south an east Asian economies. In any case, Brexit Britain voted to leave the EU with no policy on where it was going next and they are just making it up as they go along. In this context kites like the Anglosphere get flown. There is no evidence of an interest in an Anglosphere with the other required component countries. The Anglosphere is a fantasy of a country that is insecure about its place in the world.
It does indeed suit Ireland to stay in the EU. It will continue as a trading entrepot between the United States and the European Union. EU membership will come with increasing power, amplified through the bloc, agreed by consensus between all of the EU's member states. In the modern world, the Irish understand that sovereignty judiciously shared is more effective than the British choice of hording it away in an ivory tower. It gives Ireland more control: in Ireland we understand that if we want to maximise control over the important issues which by definition do not stop at borders – from trade to energy to international crime – these must be addressed on a cross-border basis; and we know the EU remains the most effective cross-border mechanism in the world.
Brexiteers are driven by the idea that they are putting their country first. But so, of course, do the Irish. The real issue is whether national interests are to be defined narrowly and pursued as if the aim is to be masters of our own little world or whether, as we believe in Ireland, those interests should be defined broadly and pursued in the knowledge that the real world is necessarily one of interdependence, compromise and shared interests.
In Appalachia and the mid-west US, industries failed to innovate and there is culturally little value, quite often, in educational attainment. This contrasts with the east and west coast which remained dynamic and innovative fueled by new ideas that resulted from exposure to outside influences. Furthermore, the trickle-down economics of the Reagan era never happened for those in the rust-belt and instead these people saw their jobs flee from the mid-west and Appalachia to cheaper manufacturing centres in Mexico and Asia and so on.
Finally, since Brexit, support for membership of the EU has actually risen across the bloc. There is an increasing appreciation and understanding for the benefits it brings, alongside each the issues that every country has with it. These are the challenges for the EU in the immediate and long term future, and not a death sentence for the bloc.
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@robw7676 I'm not sorry about anything.
Ireland is happy to change its Corporation Tax rate provided all countries jump together, and for that reason the Irish, Dutch, and others in the New Hansiatic League are awaiting a decision from the OECD. The EU Commission does not agree, but has no power over taxation in member states.
Once there is a level playing field, other advantages Ireland possesses will keep investment coming in: these included excellent universities producing excellent graduates, freedom of movement, climate (believe it or not), a well-educated workforce, a culture of high-productivity and the fact that Ireland is considered a welcoming and cool place to live.
Brexit has presented Ireland with an unexpected advantage: it will be the only English speaking country in the EU and the focus of investment into the EU from places like Canada, New Zealand and Australia that might have otherwise gone to the UK. Irish third-level institutions and language schools are already experiencing a bounce from Brexit, as students from across the EU are being diverted to Ireland. It will be interesting to see how long the British universities maintain their rankings post-Brexit, and the ranking for tech start ups applies to London which is where the remainers live.
It is difficult to find any independent economist who thinks the UK will be better off after Brexit - you don;t up barriers with your neighbours and thrive. I have no doubt some aspects of the British economy will do better than others, but I seriously doubt that the vast majority of the people of England will be better off. Those who voted for Brexit will be worse off than they ever were and the reputation of the UK be diminished.
And it will have been entirely self-inflicted.
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@anneclarke3905 Many in Europe don't remember the Troubles - we do. Here in the Republic and along the border, the fear is real. You have a British government that lied to its own people talking about 'taking back control' of their borders but were unable to articulate what that meant in relation to the border in Ireland. We were all happy with the status quo as it was, nobody wanted to change it.
Furthermore, there were no dissenting voices in the Republic on the issue, and nationalists in Northern Ireland recognised that Varadkar was speaking for them too. The DUP certainly were not, and that is the reason Varadkar had to speak up. The fact is, there is no majority support for Brexit in either part of Ireland and it was Varadkars duty to represent the people who pay his considerable salary, and, under the GFA, the voiceless civic nationalists north of the border. He used Irish membership of the EU as leverage over a British government that thought small countries don't matter, it just needed to strike a deal with the Germans. It was all he or any Taoiseach could have done.
Now Northern Ireland has the best of all worlds. The GFA remains intact, nationalists are happy, moderate unionists seem happy enough, Northern Ireland remains in the UK and its businesses have access to both the UK and EU markets. This should be a tremendous shot in the arm for the Northern Ireland economy. How many US or Asian companies will look to Northern Ireland as a base for their investments which would be both in the UK and the EU? It could transform Northern Ireland.
I have a friend who is a Unionist from County Down, she has a close friend whose husband is an Orangeman. My friend tells me that the Orangeman saw no future for his business because of Brexit and he told his wife that he could for the first time see a benefit in Irish unity. That was in two years ago, before the Irish protocol, and I have no idea what that man feels now. But I was quite surprised.
As for the virus, the reason the death rate is so low is because of restrictions. A British study indicates that 1 in 20 people who contract it end up with long-term health problems, regardless of their age, many of them with permanent organ damage. I trust the science.
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@anneclarke3905 Well, there is no border in my jurisdiction in relation to the virus. The border remains open, people can still go to work or school from either side, depending on what the restrictions are. One the reasons the virus infections are so high in Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan and Louth is because when the pubs were closed in the south, people just nipped over the border to the north to socialise there, and vice versa. I'm not sure what you mean about refusing to put u a border to protect families from food price increases. My understanding about milk in the north coming south etc is in relation to the integrated economy, which is something Varadkar was trying to protect by making his stand.
A cousin of a friend of mine contracted COVID-19 in March. She's 30 years old and now has only 30% lung capacity too, and oddly, is only slowly getting the use back in her right arm. For months she could not hold a cup in her right hand. Looks like the lung issue is permanent too.
So, can I ask you, do you think Northern Ireland remaining in the EU Customs Union is a good thing or a bad thing?
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The 'British People' did not vote to leave the EU, 15.1 million the 17+ million voters were English - the English voted to leave the EU, the Scots and the Northern Irish voted to remain. Indeed, the Welsh probably would have voted to remain too, if it were not for all the English retirees living among them. Brexit will break up your 'precious union'.
Your country was never a democracy other western countries would recognise. You have an unelected head of state, a first past the post electoral system for your House of Commons, an unelected elitist Upper House with Bishops (!) in it, no written constitution that any citizen has ever voted upon, no devolution for England and no constitutional account for the fact that Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain. Your referendum was a joke, with many pretending that they were never promised that the UK would leave with some sort of a trade deal with the EU.
The UK already has a dictator - Rupert Murdoch.
Good luck thinking you will be a self-ruling county. You will be rule takers, not rule makers. Enjoy!
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'We unionists in NI have many sensible reasons for not wanting to take our country into a union with your country.'
I'm sure there are - you don't share them with me though.
'Can't believe you pretend intelligence and come out with claptrap like "inclusive, compassionate values of Irish nationalism".
You omitted the word 'today' when quoting me. Was this a deliberate attempt to substitute an argument you want to have or or just an error? Irish nationalism has and continues to evolve.
For the record - nobody 'forced' Protestants out of the new state in 1922 or thereafter, Protestants were not an oppressed minority in the Republic, and instead have a disproportionate representation in the professions, particularly in the legal profession. The Protestant population in the 26 counties began its decline following Disestablishment, and others left with the British Administration in 1922, some left because they could accept the reality of living in the Irish Free State and others for economic reasons - just like Catholics. The 'oppressive' Republic has had two Protestant Presidents. Unlike Catholics in NI, Protestants in the Republic identify with the state within which they are a minority. This includes the Ulster-Scots of Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan, one of whom, Heather Humphreys, headed up the 1916 centenary commemorations two years ago. Imagine that. Another, Jack Boothman, was President of the GAA in the 1990s.
Kingsmill had nothing to do with Nationalism, and everything to do with pure sectarianism - the 'ism' that has blighted your part of the island and still does. You are a buck eejit if you think I support terrorism.
The fact is, in the last 40 years, Irish nationalism in the Republic has evolved. It is confident, inclusive and compassionate. You can be Protestant and Irish, Gay and Irish, Black and Irish, Atheist, British, Polish, American, Chinese and Irish; Catholicism is no longer a badge of Irishness in the Republic and Gaelic Irishness is only one strand of Irish identity.
Now, you are free to reject this is you wish, but it does not change the facts. From what I read online, it is only the British who have a problem with the current Taoiseach being half-Indian and gay. Its no problem for the Irish. Irish nationalism has evolved while unionism has remained the same.
'Oh bye-the-way, love all you statistics BUT if Ireland is actually such a lovely place why are there more Irish living in the UK than actually live in Ireland, maybe they think the UK is better?'
Your claim is a preposterous fabrication: in the 2001 census, only 780,000 Irish were living in Britain. I will let you look up the population of the Republic yourself. British immigrants to Ireland represent a higher proportion of the Irish population than vice versa.
Can you show me where I claimed Ireland was on a par with Germany?
Your entire argument is incoherent, prone to jumping to conclusions and ill-informed, . Can you point out something I said that is offensive?
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'I have seen your name and comments on various strings on YouTube, so I know I am not addressing some schoolboy, sitting at his game consul in his bedroom.'
Aw, shucks. Thanks Jack.
'I would expect you to be deeply knowledgeable about EU future policy and although Ireland is not in Shengen, do you really believe you will be allowed to remain like that.'
Yes. Every country has its opt-outs, the UK has more than other member, and we have ours. We control our borders while being members of the EU. On Monday Ireland will issue 800 visas for non-EU unskilled workers to work in our meat rendering plants - they will probably come from Brazil as they have done in the past. Why can the UK not put such practices in place while a member of the EU?
With respect, your assertions are based on assumptions which in turn is based on fear - fear is frequently the product of ignorance. Religion is less of a problem than ignorance is.
Irish identity is secure, and Irish nationalism is confident. It can therefore cope comfortably with immigrants from all over the world, though mostly from Poland, the UK and Lithuania (about 50%). Ireland has learned from the mistakes of the UK and other former imperial powers by integrating immigrants into a culture that is inclusive and at ease with itself. Ireland's 60,000 Muslims are mostly professionals and are well integrated. Only a handful are Islamists and these are 'policed' by both Muslim and the intelligence communities.
The future of the EU is not set in stone. While Brexiters tend to simultaneously hold the two opposing 'truths' 1) that the EU will turn into a superstate taking away members rights AND 2) is destined to collapse, in Ireland we understand that EU integration is rapidly reaching its limits.
This quotation sums up Brexit for me:
'Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.' - Martin Luther King Jnr.
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'Deport'....
You mean extradite.
In Ireland, the judiciary and the executive are separate. The Irish judiciary would not extradite suspects to the UK because the UK judiciary had put innocent Irish people behind bars for terror crimes they did not commit. Your judiciary were not up to standard, and your community made excuses for these shabby injustices.
The killings of Protestants on the northern side of the border was IRA policy not the policy of the Irish government. The IRA did not recognise the right of the Republic to exist until 1986 and was responsible for the deaths of Irish security forces. There was no widespread support for the IRA in the south, but that did not mean there was blind support for the politically corrupted, flawed, regime in Northern Ireland either.
Peace in the north was only possible because both the UK and Ireland were in the EU. It meant that the UK was forced to treat the Irish government as an equal, while at the same time facilitating regular contact between politicians and civil servants that brought about trust. Its the same with the Irish border - its open nature facilitates trust between those on both sides of it, trust that will increase over the decades. An open border would secure NI place in the union. Its the most perfect imperfect solution.
Nobody suggests that if Brexit happens we're going back to 1969, however Sir Hugh Orde agrees that any change to the present border will bring problems. I think he is better qualified than any of us to make such a judgement. So does George Mitchell. And we're NOT talking about Adams here, so I don't know why you mention him - we're talking about Republican types that would put a bullet in Adams head because they see him as a traitor. These are not people 'with a brain'.
There is no evidence that the UK leaving the EU will bring you a job and prosperity, quite the opposite in fact, especially in NI. The move toward automation means that all the unskilled will be without jobs in the future, regardless of Brexit. You need to get yourself a skill and then keep upskilling in the future. We all do.
Ireland is not Germany. The republic is not overrun with unskilled migrants from foreign lands, it accommodates half a million people from 200 hundred nations (but mostly from Poland, UK and Lithuania) who live and work comfortably among the Irish. You are leaving the EU because of something going on in Germany.
Ireland is not in Schengen and has no intention of joining. Ireland deports wasters. Why does the UK not do the same? Ireland will issue 800 work visas for unskilled non-EU citizens to work in its meat processing industry - they will probably come from Brazil - why can't the UK do that while still in the EU? Brexit makes no sense.
Borders played a very big part in the way people voted, and yet the Irish border did not figure at all.
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* It has the biggest fiscal deficit in GDP terms in the EU which is funded by rUK.
That’s because it is far away from the centre of economic power in the UK – London. An Independent Scotland will have more flexibility to shape it economic future within the EU than it does within the UK.
* It has no independent currency, will not have one and will not have a bank of last resort (ie Central Bank).
Ireland did not set up a Central Bank until 1944. Scotland could launch its own currency and peg it to the Euro, and set up its own Central Bank. These are challenges but are not unsurmountable.
* Its S & P rating will be deplorable as it will be a) a new economy, b) have no track record, c) no CB and no way of raising money to pay loans.
Only in the short-term. Assuming Scotland will have a plan – and it did the last time there was an IndyRef – the rating agencies can be found to be very forgiving. So, there will be belt tightening, but again it is not the end of the world.
‘For all the kind words during Brexit the EU will not want yet another lame duck member state…’
If Brexit has taught us anything, it is that English people know nothing of the EU - you draw from that well of ignorance. The EU is made up of small countries includes many that are smaller than Scotland. The EU sees no great difficulties in any Scottish application and indeed Scotland is likely to be fast-tracked into the bloc as it already meets the majority of its conditions of membership through its UK membership.
* 75% of Scotland's 'exports' go to rUK.
That will end. The Scots can quickly join EFTA and begin the process of economic decoupling as an interim before joining the EU, helping the Scots find new markets; any dissolution of the UK will be done through negotiation with the English and we must remember, that Scotland will remain an important market or English goods and services and only the third with which it will have a surplus. If Ireland is the UKs 5th largest export market, what will Scotland be? Fourth? Third? The negotiation will be a two street of give and take. When Ireland joined the EEC in 1973, 71% of Irish exports went to the UK. Today its 11% and falling. Scotland is in a much stronger position than Ireland was in 1973.
* The Eu will demand a border as they did in Ireland, will levy EU External Tariffs against rUK which will kill Scottish 'exports'.
Actually, the fundamentals of world trade require a border between different custom areas. Scotland will be exchanging a market of 58 million of a market of 400 million. After some readjustment – a few years – Scottish exports will explode. You do realise that the UK will not exist post-Scottish independence, right? The tariffs will be on good from the FUKEW.
* It will lose its coastal waters to the EU and Scottish fishermen will be decimated. (While rUk's fishermen reap the British sea harvest)
The waters around the British isles will be divided appropriately between Scots and the FUKEW. The Scottish fisherman are supposed to be already decimated because of UK membership, while their English will be free to catch fish in their own waters for which they will have no market. Famously, the English eat relatively little fish for few fish species – they don’t like the stuff. Some European countries fish, but there will be cheaper options.
* It will lose the £ Bns that are ploughed into the Scottish economy by the UK MoD for air and army bases, ports and facilities.
The UK depends on Scotland as a home for its nuclear deterrent, as there are no harbours deep enough base it in England. This will be subject to negotiation with England upon independence
* It will inherit 8% of the UK's National Debt on leaving. Or £144 Bn to which it will add 313 Bn a year in deficits.
That will be subject to negotiation upon independence.
* It will never build another rUK warship so Glasgow and Rosyth will close costing 20,00 dependent jobs.
No, but Glasgow and Rosyth will be able to offer their expertise to Navatia, Fincantieri, Naval Group, Damen and others. You see, the EU is a bigger market than the UK.
More opportunities.
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@searscone3799 I understand that Protestants fear Catholics, but it is not clear what it is they are afraid of. Southern Protestants may be invisible to Unionists in NI, but that is only because they identify as Irish, not British, and don't. Protestants occupy some of the most influential areas of Irish life, they are not some downtrodden community in the republic: they have a disproportionate representation in business and in particular in the justice system. Many of our top judges and barristers are Protestant, and two of them have be President of Ireland. An Ulster-Scots person from Monaghan is a minister in the government.
In Northern Ireland, nationalists are coming into the majority and are seeking to attain equality with the Protestant neighbours. Protestants are generally resisting it, because they view equality as a diminution of their culture: when you feel superior to another group, equality feels like oppression - that appears to their culture, though I am open to correction. It is difficult to see how this means they are losing their identity, unless their identity is built on dominance as a birthright - is that the case? Their history is their history - how can that be lost though acknowledging the heritage of the other people in community that do not identify as British? And what is their culture and why do they think they will lose it? If the GFA seeks equality, how can equality be a 'loss' to unionism?
I understand that poverty is an issue, that and low levels of education in working class areas is a significant problem. But there are many middle class unionists also - why are they not doing more to help their poorer brethern? Surely that would give the community as a whole more confidence? You seem to hint that this may be about class, and I think I would agree with that. Nationalists seem have a more organised and coherent vision of the future than Unionism does. The lack of leadership in unionism is appalling, it is deeply divided and undermining of itself at a time when it needs to come together.
I understand that the problem here is one of identity, class and economic deprivation. I think there is a cultural issue here too: Irish culture is seen inclusive, fashionable, accessible, progressive and international; the British culture as expressed by Unionists is exclusive, conservative and local. I think Unionists feel threatened by it.
Any thoughts on this view?
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@searscone3799 'Historically, it has always been about territory; the "Huns" stole the North mentality.'
It is a historical fact that partition occurred without consultation of the nationalists majority in Ireland in 1920. However, today it is about unifying the people of the island and this is outlined in the Irish constitution. Articles 2 and 3 define the Irish nation quite differently to the territorial claim which preceded it - it is about people now.
'You think that things will remain the same as they are in the 26 Counties; that is a mistaken belief.'
On the contrary, I know it will be fundamentally different - any new Ireland will have to be agreed and this will require concessions on both sides.
'Moderate Nationalists wanted a deal with the Unionists, but the various wings of the IRA stopped that in the Six Counties.'
Everybody knows Unionists would not engage with nationalists also, so it was a two way street. Only one motion put forward by nationalists in Stormont between 1920 and 1969 was adopted by a Unionist dominated devolved parliament, all the rest were out voted by the Unionist majority. There is no evidence that the Unionists wanted to work with the Nationalists, quite the opposite actually.
'The Loyalist paramilitaries do not need the majority support of Protestants to wage war.'
Irish unity will only happen if there is an agreed Ireland. In that context, it is difficult to see how loyalist paramilitaries will be able to murder their way into staying in the Union - the rest of Britain will not support it. In the context of a democratic process, their activities will only undermine their own position and will make them international pariahs. It must be remembered that Unionists strategic thinking has been poor in recent decades - a return to violence would be counter productive.
'I don't think the 26 Counties' government wants a referendum on the North. They cannot afford it. If it happens, it will be because the British want it to happen; they get rid of this problem and it becomes Ireland's problem.'
It is true that Dublin does not want a referendum any time soon, not in the context of Brexit. If allowed to occur naturally over the next say 25 years (perhaps longer) in the context of NI taking opportunity for prosperity that NI having access to both the EU and UK markets can provide, the cost of NI will be much reduced if not eliminated. We know from a poll of Tory party members in 2018 that they want Brexit more than they want to maintain the UK and so we must be thankful that the GFA prevents them from dumping the NI. The Irish government must also be party to any referendum, as the vote must happen in both jurisdictions on the same day. At present, nobody knows what a united Ireland will look like, in part because unionists will not allow a discussion to take place, and so there is no appetite for unity just for the sake of it in the south.
'The census data is unreliable.'
So I checked your claims and could not find any supporting evidence in various academic papers on the subject, and you don't provide a source.
'This Brexit issue will fade away.'
It won't. The UK is now engaged in a never ending negotiation with the European Union, not just on the protocol, but on every aspect of its relationship with the bloc. The EU is unlike to change what you call 'behaviour', because to change its rules for the UK so that it can have the benefits of membership without the responsibilities (which is what it amounts to) will undermine the Single Market, the goose that lays the EUs golden egg. It will take some time for this penny to drop among Brexiters as their media turns everything the EU does into a 'punishment' or a 'capitulation' in the face of the UKs decision to leave the EU.
'No one in the elite in Dublin wants Northern Ireland (they are too intelligent to take it). Irish unity at this point in time is a pipe dream; it cannot work.'
Not so. Most people aspire to a united Ireland, just not now. Dublin has established a 'Shared Island' office as part of a long-term strategy to create an environment where the unity of people can take place in practical ways; the two economies are already rapidly integrating since January this year and this is likely to continue. As stated above, in the long-term the economic prospects of NI look very positive which will assist unity in the long term.
'The Loyalists often hate, but I would not call it irrational. It is based upon their historical experiences with the Irish Catholics.'
It is both historical and irrational. I agree, that there is real sectarian tension between unionists and nationalists in parts of NI - but projecting that into a united Ireland scenario is irrational. The idea that a small minority can hold a veto over the democratic will of a majority is simply unsustainable in this day and age. It is no longer 1912.
'Would you want to live in a state that wants to eliminate your identity?'
Again, the Irish constitution - remember we in the south voted voted for an amendment - by 94% in 1998 - acknowledges Irish identity as a being a multi-layered one. We've had a half Irish half Indian and homosexual Taoiseach for example. Irish identity accommodates being Irish and something else and in recent years there has been an increasing acknowledgement of the shared history Ireland has with Britain. 17% of people living in the republic were born somewhere else, so the republic is comfortable with both its own identity and the identity of others living in Ireland. So who exactly is going to take away the British identity of unionists? How could it be done? It may be the case in NI that Catholics and Protestants at interface areas view each other in the traditional manner, but that is not the case in republic. In any negotiated Ireland, the identity of unionists can and will have to be accommodated and copper fastened.
The smartest way for Unionists to prevent a united Ireland is through working with the Nationalist middle class that were presently happy in the Union - but there is no sign of this happening yet, not in any major way at least. This is a strategic error, in my opinion.
The X factor here are the changes occurring in Britain. It seems to me that a natural outworking of Brexit is England becoming independent and the dissolution of the United Kingdom. Should this occur in the short term, this is has the potential to be a disaster for all of us, but it does not appear to be imminent at all at the moment. A Scottish departure is more likely on the face of it, and while this could be a huge psychological blow to Unionism, it is unclear that London will give them a referendum any time soon either. Constant conflict with the EU may keep the English onside for some time to come as it will distract English nationalists and provide somebody to blame for the short comings of Brexit. But who knows?
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@oreooreo5622 The WTO is becoming dysfunctional, and of course for any sensible country, WTO is merely a safety net, a waiting area ahead of a trade deal. Countries across the world are either strengthening existing trade blocs, creating them or negotiating trade deals.
The Swiss are years ahead of the UK, and everyone else for that matter. The EU will soon catch up with Switzerland and surpass it with the value of its trade deals by virtue of its size. Since you checked two years ago the EU signed a the largest ever trade deal with Japan, for example, an economy much larger than that of the UK. The Swiss have the advantage of being politically neutral and politically stable, and it will be interesting to see how the UK deals with the constitutional reckoning that Brexit will bring in the years ahead. The Swiss also benefit from a trade deal with the EU - which Brexiters like to claim they don't need - because they understand that trading with your neighbours makes sound economic sense.
The UK is a small fish. It will be much smaller when it leaves the EU. Remember too, that those who voted for Brexit are the ones who will lose most because of it, while it will make the rich even richer. Brexit has been championed by the political class responsible for the austerity that led to so many voting against their own interests. Unlike the British, the Swiss have used their comparative wealth well, and are ranked second in the UN Human Development Index, 13 places above the UK who have a larger economy. They are also considerably more productive than the UK, which has the lowest productivity in the OECD. It will be interesting to see how the UK tackles these disparities, which it will need to do, if Brexit is to be worth it for the ordinary people.
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@ kcridrab
I agree, you are struggling.
It is a measure your ignorance of Ireland that you are trying to shape your insular argument around cosmopolitan influences on Irish soil, when for 800 years Crown and British policy in Ireland was focused on suppressing such influences - using legal, legislative and when necessary military resources available to it.
'Cosmopolitan and Foreign influences' were only permitted for the Anglo-Irish Ascendancy, and they followed the fashion trends of London which in turn were frequently influenced by social and cultural tastes on the continent. The last the thing the British establishment would permit for the natives in Catholic Ireland were any ideas or influences from outside Britain as the Irish could not be trusted with them: after all the Irish practiced the religion of England's enemies, spoke a different language, had a different culture and customs. Nonetheless you will struggle to believe that in the 1790s the Irish nationalists were strongly influenced by the Republican revolutions of France and the USA, which led to the Rebellion of 1798, uniting Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter.
You are unaware also Irish traditional music absorbed foreign influences from England, Scotland and France, but this was allowed as such influences were considered harmless. Today it absorbs influences from Africa, the Middle East and the United States, but I guess you don't know that either.
Ireland opened up to the world following the publication of the Whitaker Report and the election of Sean Lemass who planned to open Ireland up to the world economically. Both occurred in 1959 and led to a policy change. I'm surprised you did not know about this given your confidence on the topic.
'The creation of Empires contains a lot of loot-raking, & a lot of other things besides, the loot-rakers are quickly forgotten after they die, other things are not & last.'
I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
You are also struggling with the acceptance of the English identity crisis - I already gave you some examples which obviously flew over your head because you could not contradict them. And while it I am not speaking from personal experience of it or the public school elite, Brexiters personal experience of the EU is equally unreliable.
Since 1707 English nationalism has expressed itself through the conduit of 'Britishness', but devolution has undermined it. There is no constitutional account in the UK for the fact that 62% of Scots voted to leave. This is because the 52% leave victory is predicated on the notion that there is a UK demos – but that is not in keeping with the sociological reality of how the UK works and how it has been understood constitutionally over the last 20 years. Following the dismantling of the Empire in 1945 at the behest of the US, the UK has been a vassal of the Americans; this seems to have been acceptable, but the loss of traditional industries, the arrival of immigrants in the 60s and 70s, and the defeat of British militarism on an American conquest in Iraq and Afghanistan seems to contributed to this crisis in English identity and a sense disfranchisement. Brexit depends on a ludicrous notion of the EU as England’s imperial oppressor, and yet the PM TM stood up in Westminster and announced that 'Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that.” In other words, the Leave campaigners’ principal claim, that it was necessary to “take back control” of UK laws, was false, since control had never been lost; and the campaign was based not on fact, but on what it “felt like” – on illusion, on emotion, on a crisis of English identity.
Hope that helps.
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@ kcirdrab
3rd Para: I have no idea what a ‘Fenian myth’ is, but you seem to be prepared to heroically deny historical fact: the Crown claimed Ireland from 1172 and Irish territory was considered fair game. The Statues of Kilkenny, the various plantations in Munster, Laois-Offaly, North Wexford and Ulster at various points mark the waxing and waning of early experiments with colonisation, perfected later in the American colonies; the Cromewellian land-grab and the Penal Laws that Ireland was clearly more than ‘a troublesome backwater after the 13th century’. If could apply to the period following the end of the Williamite War. Indeed, over the next 200 years there were more books written about Jamaica by Englishmen after 1650 than there about was about Ireland. I give you an F.
4th Para: more denial, as it is easier than arguing the facts. I’m not aware of any ‘Fenian’ issue here either…some waffle about ‘Pale Aristocracy’, whatever that is supposed to mean, and the announcement that Wolfe Tone, born in Dublin, was not in fact Irish (?). This is followed by a trope about Irish catholics during 1798, which you admit to being self-serving. I can't actually grade this.
5th Para: evasion. NG
6th Para: enter the strawman and a rapid retreat. NG
7th Para: ? NG
8th Para: 8th: ‘English nationalism conduit Britishness (Right). Scots/Welsh devo has undermined Britishness (Wrong, devo came because of Britishness' waning, it didn't cause it).’ I can accept that. A+
‘62-52% Demos point poorly worded to the point of being lost in obscurity.’ It touched a nerve and you can’t argue it. NG
‘Empire dismantled at behest of USA (It's a little more complicated than that, but the central point you're making is Right).’ Agreed. A
‘UK has been since then a vassal of the Americans (in foreign policy - Right).’
Agreed. A
‘Loss of industrial capacity, foreign immigration in the 60's-70's (should be 1950's to the present), & military defeats for British Army on American foreign wars have created a crisis in English identity. (No this is mainly wrong & misunderstood. The loss of manufacturing capacity caused a crisis in the 1980s to North England & Midlands working class identity, particularly for the youth of those areas, but it was limited to that part of society.’
Yes, I know about the ‘crisis’ in 1980s England, I remember it. Thatcherism created a deeply resented socio-economic divide, which even if its just a perception in some cases, contributed towards a sense of disenfranchisement afterwards. The upshot is ‘Dave in Sheffield’ voting to reject EU membership even though is car assembly plant requires the EU market… on the promise of a better future for which there was no plan, just to poke the establishment in they eye. Making a referenda about other issues is a common problem with referenda everywhere. B
‘Foreign immigration & America's recent petro-chemical wars haven't affected English identity in the least).’
Both have contributed to the retreat from Britishness into Englishness for many Brexiters. You must have been in coma during the referendum campaign if you think foreign immigration was not an issue. F
‘Brexit predicated on the suggestion that the eu was an imperial oppressor (Wrong). Brexit is predicated on the fact that the English & Welsh do not wish to see their Kingdom abolished & replaced by the eu. It's no more & no less complicated than that elemental fact.’ This is new! So replacing your Kingdom is not EU oppression? Incoherent claptrap. You made my point perfectly in a classic example of Brexiter Doublethink! NG.
‘Quote from Theresa May to represent English consciousness (Wrong).’
It is a quote to highlight the lack of substance underpinning Brexit. Again, you use denial as a bolthole as a substitute for critical analysis. There is no ‘English consciousness’ yet – its still evolving. C
‘May is a modern professional political class snake of a low grade, she represents Torysim, not England in any serious way.’ And its Toryism that is representing Brexit, without any agreed vision with itself for the future. F
So lets sum up, shall we?
1) You have established that you have no knowledge of Ireland, just stuff you might hear in the pub after a Glasgow Rangers game. I’m not even sure you even understand that stuff either. Once ‘Fenian myth’ is mentioned, I know you are beaten docket.
2) You failed to address the lack of demos in the UK – you just ignored reality, following a fashion in Brexiter Britain. I can’t say I wouldn’t do the same if I was in your position.
3) You contradicted yourself: dismissing the EU as an oppressor with wild speculation regarding EU oppression. It supports my assertion that Brexit is an incoherent English nationalist revolution, just like TMs quotation indicates. Thank you for that. I will be quoting you.
4) You dangled the strawman again, but with no conviction. Why bother with a fallacy at all?
5) You felt more confident when discussing English identity, and while you indicate a few areas where we agree, you emphatically failed address the issue in any coherent way. You actually don’t understand the issue. How embarrassing for you.
6) You should learn to critically analyse. It will reduce your tendency towards evasion and give you the ability to make reasoned, sound arguments.
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The UK may give NI 12 billion a year, but the RoI would not be required to give so much as NI would not have to contribute to the UK defence budget for example. Furthermore, when one takes in to account VAT contributions from NI, the 12 billion figure is reduced.
With NI in both the UK and EU trading areas, its unique position is likely to turbo charge the NI economy and remove it as a dependency on largesse from GB. In effect, NI will pay for itself in the next 10 to 20 years, making unity more attractive to people in the south.
The HSE will have to be reformed to be more like the NHS, although the NHS is in the toilet at the moment.
Ireland has an expensive economy, which is common in wealthy economies. It seems even more expensive because the median income in NI is about $35,000 (in GB its $38,000) while the median income in Ireland is $41,700 per year. People south of the border earn more.
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@kcirdrab
Nothing is perfect. That said, Ireland was the only country to gain independence between the wars that successfully maintained its democracy. In truth, many of the 'flaws' played a part in securing this achievement.
Why would I have a problem with Irish nationalism? It is coherent, had a clear identity, knew what it was for and what it was against. It was also conservative, an unusual trait for a revolutionary movement. In the early period it was insecure and retreated behind a narrow identity. This has changed in its second 50 years of independence to gradually adopting a broader identity and in doing so has reaped the benefits of a more cohesive society. There are now many strands to Irish identity and this change has been caused by opening up to the world, The Troubles in Northern Ireland, returning Irish immigrants and membership of both the UN and the EU. Irish nationalism has matured and and believes that its best days are ahead.
Brexit in contrast is incoherent, there is no consensus as to what it is against and cannot agree what it is for. There is no agreed vision. It is underpinned by an English nationalism that cannot admit that England is a country, a nation in its own right and a sense that things were better in the old days - even to the point of Empire nostalgia. It bizarrely feels that membership of the EU is a threat to its culture when its influence around the world is enormous. It is insecure and insular. For us in Ireland our hard-won freedom and sovereignty are things to be shared judiciously and to be deployed intelligently rather than jealously horded away on our island. Research has shown that Brexiters admit to being English first and British second - they cannot also accept the invitation to take on an EU identity alongside their national identity.
It is also the case that Brexiters have invented an oppressor, transferring blame for the emphatic failure of successive governments of all hues on to the EU. The upshot? Pensioners in Liverpool voting to Leave and blaming the fact that their German counterparts get higher pensions on the EU; Sheffield car assembly workers voting for Brexit in protest at Westminster even though their jobs depend on exports to the EU; farmers voting for Brexit even though some of their income is dependent on trading with the EU and subsidies from the CAP.
It is fascinating to watch. Its history.
Marxism is a fatally flawed, failed ideology. Be careful not to introduce a strawman to your argument, it will only highlight an inability to critically think.
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The EU has an agreement with the Turks in relation to keeping Middle Eastern refugees in their country and not sending them on to Greece.
That's what the money is for.
'Poland and Hungry have appalling human rights records by their current governments yet are still EU members.'
Such as?
'Poland makes it a criminal offence to say there were Polish death camps. Yet there is clear evidence that Jews, Germans, communists, non communists, free thinkers, etc. were murdered by Poles in Polish death camps both before and after WWII.'
Yes, of course the Poles object: they were GERMAN death camps in Poland. In Ireland we object to the term 'the Irish border' used constantly in the the UK - its the British border in Ireland. The Irish never wanted a border. If the Poles have a law against the use of 'Polish death camps', that's fine with me, its their business. Contrary to the bullshit of Brexiters, Poland is a sovereign nation within the EU.
'There is evidence that the EU policy of forcing refugees on Ireland is not popular see https://www.irishmirror.ie/all-about/refugee-crisis'
There is indeed. There is also evidence of people that are fine with it. Why have you not produced that?
'The EU's dumb policy of trying to put a hard border on Northern Ireland seems to be not popular in both Northern Ireland and Eire.'
Its not popular and neither is Brexit. The fact is, it is Brexit that putting a hard border in Ireland, a border nobody in Ireland wants, because Brexit is incompatible with the Belfast Agreeement. It is necessary because the UK intends leaving the Customs Union and regulatory alignment with the EU for lure of low grade trade deals with nations.
The fundamentals of international trade therefore make it necessary to put up controls. Remember, its the UK that is changing the status quo, not Ireland or the EU.
'From a distance I can't see why a Norway like free trade agreement would not be accepted?'
Take it up with Leavers.
After running a campaign stating that it would be quite mad to leave the EU without a deal such the Norway free trade deal, the Swiss model or the Canadian one, the Brexiters immediately stated they wished to leave the Customs Union and Single Market when they won the vote. This is because they want to stop freedom of movement.
The Norway deal requires Freedom of Movement. Freedom of Movement is one of the core values of the EU, and the EU will not change that for the UK. The UK is less special than Brexiters think it is.
Hope that helps.
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No, the UK is held to ransom by its lack of a plan for Brexit in relation to the Good Friday Agreement. That international peace treaty was assent by democratic vote too, 71% in Northern Ireland and 94% in the republic.
It is not 'racist', but a matter of fact that people living along both sides of the border will not tolerate any changes brought in because of a decision made by people on the other island. There is no majority for Brexit in Ireland, and there is no support for the casual attitude Brexiters have towards their only land border with the EU.
The Irish protocol that the UK signed up to a year ago places the customs border in the Irish Sea. This is an international treaty and the UK cannot unilaterally walk away from it. To do so will have consequences for the US-UK trade deal. You will then have both the EU and US ganging up on the UK, and we know how that will end.
The Irish government has used its diplomatic influence in Washington to invite support for its position. Brexit is not just the business of Britain. You need a deal with the US, it is your leverage with the EU in the trade negotiations - or it was.
While some Irish-Americans funded the IRA because of their ancestral memory of British misdeeds in Ireland, the American Government did not. However, that ancestral voice is still strong and no Irish-American politicians in the US will shaft Ireland in order to assist Brexit or a trade deal. The UK no longer has that power or influence. And the Irish-American lobby, a bi-partisan group, has already told the UK that.
It is time to listen.
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No. In the event that a united Ireland is a agreed through referenda on both sides of the border on the same day, discussions will begin to agree as to what that new Ireland would looks like.
I expect there will be an accommodation of the Britishness of Northern Protestants, which could include the new state becoming a member of the Commonwealth etc.
Irish national identity is no longer binary following a period of evolution. You can now be Irish and Catholic, Irish and Protestant, Irish and Muslim, Irish and black, Irish and British, Irish and American, Irish and gay, etc, etc.
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@ zoreto
It sticks in your craw, doesn't it.
I merely pointed out the democratic deficit in your own country, and just look how defensive you got.
Contrary to your claim, the reason we are having this conversation, you and I, is because you don't agree with the following statement:
'You got here because you never came to terms with winning the war and losing an empire; Germany and the liberated nations of Europe grew prosperous while the UK almost went bankrupt.
Brexit is the politics of self-pity.'
Brexit is not about sovereignty or democracy, these are the vehicles co-opted to by your political elite and their media backers to provide a reason d'etra to vote leave, - its a populist trope. Whether the EU is more or less democratic than you own country is actually debatable. That's one point, which leads me to another.
Brexit and its fantasies - you expound them well - are based on insecurities, hubris, a sense of superiority, nostalgia for the past and a manufactured oppression.
The manufactured oppression is important - it appears that the raison d'être for Brexit is an appropriation of the same kind of grievances those colonised by the British empire felt - but based on fantasy. Odd, isn't it?
The English have never experienced oppression and have confused it with minor inconveniences.
When Brexit changes none of the problems in English society and the extent to which you are holding the weaker hand in trade negotiations with peoples you feel superior to become obvious, it will be exposed.
Who will be the scapegoat then?
I've got the popcorn in.
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@ Gazza H
It's not a dictatorship, actually. You obviously don't understand democracy. Nor do you remember Farage on the night of the count, thinking the leave vote was lost, vowing to fight on - I'm sure he would have had no problem with a second referendum if he had thought he could have had another opportunity to right the wrong.
Autocrats like 'democratic' referendums such as your one in June 2016 and share your attitude to the changing of minds. Your referendum was advisory only and your proposition that a second vote 'isn't democracy it is dictatorship' is the opposite to the truth. Napoleon Bonaparte knew this and used a referendum to make him consul for life; Hitler , Mussolini and Pinochet also used referenda to legitimise their rule. Hitler promptly abolished democracy, ensuring further votes. Referenda can be hi-jacked by autocrats and populists.
While the UK is not an autocratic state (yet?), Brexiters like you still hanker after that once-and-for all gesture that the 2016 referendum represents, the notion that all was changed and there is no going back. The public voted blindly, with no plan to vote on, no vision based on any truths or facts. None of the promises made have come to pass. This is bad democracy and bad politics. Continue on this path and it will lead to continued instability in the UK.
The June 2016 vote signaled the desire to leave and Parliament is trying to organise that. Now it must be undone only by democratic vote, but this time let the people see the truth of leaving, that it is very complicated; present a plan for leaving, outlining the options, and let the people decide. Make it binding.
Take back control!
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