Comments by "Taint ABird" (@taintabird23) on "100 years on: How do today’s Loyalist teenagers see their Northern Irish identity?" video.
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@Unknown-pi5ll #so you admit 70 million Irish people still haven’t returned to Ireland .'
I'm beginning to see why The Sun is the biggest selling newspaper in the UK.
'If Ireland is so great they would returned by now'
Why? They made the countries they emigrated to great. But many of them are Irish passport holders
'Actually they left because of the potato famine which was a natural disaster it was caused by A disease called late blight it’s destroyed the leaves and edible roots of the potato plants'
About 2 million left during the famine. While the failure of the potato crop was natural, the famine was caused by the British government's response to it, wedding as they were to placing Irish people ahead of the economic doctrine.
'We saved as many ethnic Irish people as we can from genocide by allowing them to escape to America and move in the UK mostly Scotland because of that there is 14,000,000 ethnic Irish people currently living in the UK mostly Scotland .'
Genocide? I never mentioned that the British government committed genocide, that's your doing. However, the famine was characterized by the response of the British government. In the summer of 1846 the British government fed three million people efficiently and cheaply, but then withdrew it, declared the famine over and allowed the Irish to starve. The British government did not 'allow' people to escape, and most of those who did, did so using their own resources.
The famine in Ireland was manmade.
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@bellascott6478 The animosity in your part of Ireland pre-dates the Troubles and is unique to this island. Many NI people who visit the republic at this time of year do get out because the feel uncomfortable, not because they necessarily want to - as you well know.
Its a shame that St Patrick's Day is not celebrated by unionists anymore, St Patrick was the patron of Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of the island and is buried in Downpatrick. I don't know what St Patrick's Day is like in NI, but in the republic it is a secular event celebrated by everybody: Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews and immigrants. It is celebrated all over the world, even in countries with zero links to Ireland. The Irish Guards regiment, which is full of NI Protestants with some members from the republic also, celebrates it, so I don't see why Protestants in NI don't even hold their own parades to mark the day. It appears to me that Protestants don't like sharing the national saint with Catholics.
I'm not pretending for one minute that Catholics are entirely innocent. I'm well aware that NI can be antagonistic towards Protestants in Northern Ireland and I have no time for it, so no bubbles have been burst. I understand that rioting and general disorder is as much a source of fun for bored nationalists as they are for bored unionists on a long summer evening. Btw, what are the 'holy lands'? Is it a place or a slang word for something? Haven't heard that before.
I have a couple of questions for you:
1) what is unionist/loyalist culture to you, and is there a difference between the two?
2) what would you fear from a united Ireland if there was a majority for it in the future?
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@bellascott6478 Thank you for your response, Bella.
So apart from the bands, and the parades, the Orange Order, loyalty to the queen what other things make up Protestant culture in NI? There is football and rugby, though Catholics play those also...what else do you do that is different? And in your opinion why do Ulster Unionists feel the need to be culturally, politically and socially separate from other Irish people even now? It pre-dates the troubles and even partition.
The Irish experience of British rule is quite different to the Unionist experience. Ireland was the only country in Europe where the majority were ruled by a minority who had a different language, customs, culture, from the majority.
Wishing for things to remain the same is perfectly legitimate, but why do you think you would have to give up your identity in a united Ireland? Any united Ireland will have to be negotiated and Polish, Brazilian and other cultures in Ireland don't have to give up their identity - so why would the Unionists? The notion of multi-layered identities is already a value upon which the Irish state is run now, and it is not Irish policy that unionists or Ulster-Scots do not have a right to be in Ireland. There is already an Ulster-Scots population in the Republic and one of them is a government minister.
We are about the same age, I suspect. During the Great War , one of my great grandfathers, a retired RIC man, served in a special constabulary established in Gretna where a huge munitions factory was built. He was Home Ruler, a follower of John Redmond - he was an Irish nationalist serving King and Country. His best friend, an RIC man, was killed by the IRA in an ambush on a train at Knocklong County Limerick in 1919. Another great Grandfather, a veteran of the Boer War, served at home training volunteers for the British Army during the Great War. He had a brother who was in the Royal Artillery in India when that war broke out and arrived in France in December 1914. I only found out that he was in Salonkia with the 10th Irish Division just last week. He survived and lived out his life in in Ireland, dying in 1973. He had another brother in the Royal Irish Regiment who survived the war, but was never right afterwards and he died in a mental home in 1980. He fought in one particular battle in 1915 and survived, but I discovered yet another relative from a different branch of the family was KIA in that same battle in the same Regiment, having only been at the front a few weeks. So we have something in common?
Up to 2016, I didn't see a united Ireland as being likely or necessary. But since Brexit it would seem that the ground is shifting, not so much because of what is happening on the island of Ireland, but because of what is happening on the other island over which none of us having any control. It seems to me that unity is an issue that will not be going away anyway soon, and my fear is that London will try to dump NI in the future even though the GFA prevents them from doing so. What are your thoughts on that possibility?
Don't be so defensive - I'm only trying to learn your point of view. Nobody is suggesting you should be ashamed of anything.
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@bellascott6478 Since the end of the Troubles, Irish families have been researching their ancestors who were in the British Army in the Great War - almost every family seems to have some connection. Some of these families also had family members in the IRA during the War of independence. So you can see how complex things were in the south, they were not as black and white as they are in NI.
I have to say, under the old Stormont regime, up to 1969 or whatever, there was a great deal of discrimination against Catholics in NI. There must have been, as the Catholics never accepted partition and that is why they were seen as a threat. It is not like that now of course, there is much more equality. In Irish culture, we take every opportunity to better ourselves when we get it. I'm not sure that exists in Unionist culture. For reasons I don't understand, it appears that there some sort of 'shame' attached to doing what the nationalists do. It could a 'British thing', because British visitors to Ireland would often sneer at Ireland seeking transfers of money from the EU to improve the infrastructure of the country, and there was always a sense they saw it as shameful. In the run up to the Brexit vote in the UK, it became apparent to me that even in Labour held councils in the North of England there was a resistance toward applying for European money to improve and develop their cities for their people. Instead there was resentment towards the EU and even resentment towards Ireland for having a 'begging bowl'. I sense there is the same resentment in Unionist culture towards Irish nationalists for improving themselves instead of being stoic about their. Today, Irish people a proud that Ireland is now a nett contributor to the EU and others are benefitting from us.
Having said all that, near where I live in the republic, a large number of Catholic refugees from Belfast settled in the early 1970s. An old boy who worked with the Council in those days told me that the Belfast people were very forward in speaking up for their rights and entitlements, and were much less easy going the provision of services than the local population. Here put it down to Belfast people having to fight for the entitlements in NI. Maybe its a Northern thing.
If there is going to be a united Ireland, nobody wants it right now. Brexit is not the context for it. Left to its own devises it would be way off in the future, maybe after our day. But as i said in my previous post, there are other factors at play now. It will have to be confronted sooner or later.
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@searscone3799 I understand that Protestants fear Catholics, but it is not clear what it is they are afraid of. Southern Protestants may be invisible to Unionists in NI, but that is only because they identify as Irish, not British, and don't. Protestants occupy some of the most influential areas of Irish life, they are not some downtrodden community in the republic: they have a disproportionate representation in business and in particular in the justice system. Many of our top judges and barristers are Protestant, and two of them have be President of Ireland. An Ulster-Scots person from Monaghan is a minister in the government.
In Northern Ireland, nationalists are coming into the majority and are seeking to attain equality with the Protestant neighbours. Protestants are generally resisting it, because they view equality as a diminution of their culture: when you feel superior to another group, equality feels like oppression - that appears to their culture, though I am open to correction. It is difficult to see how this means they are losing their identity, unless their identity is built on dominance as a birthright - is that the case? Their history is their history - how can that be lost though acknowledging the heritage of the other people in community that do not identify as British? And what is their culture and why do they think they will lose it? If the GFA seeks equality, how can equality be a 'loss' to unionism?
I understand that poverty is an issue, that and low levels of education in working class areas is a significant problem. But there are many middle class unionists also - why are they not doing more to help their poorer brethern? Surely that would give the community as a whole more confidence? You seem to hint that this may be about class, and I think I would agree with that. Nationalists seem have a more organised and coherent vision of the future than Unionism does. The lack of leadership in unionism is appalling, it is deeply divided and undermining of itself at a time when it needs to come together.
I understand that the problem here is one of identity, class and economic deprivation. I think there is a cultural issue here too: Irish culture is seen inclusive, fashionable, accessible, progressive and international; the British culture as expressed by Unionists is exclusive, conservative and local. I think Unionists feel threatened by it.
Any thoughts on this view?
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@searscone3799 'Historically, it has always been about territory; the "Huns" stole the North mentality.'
It is a historical fact that partition occurred without consultation of the nationalists majority in Ireland in 1920. However, today it is about unifying the people of the island and this is outlined in the Irish constitution. Articles 2 and 3 define the Irish nation quite differently to the territorial claim which preceded it - it is about people now.
'You think that things will remain the same as they are in the 26 Counties; that is a mistaken belief.'
On the contrary, I know it will be fundamentally different - any new Ireland will have to be agreed and this will require concessions on both sides.
'Moderate Nationalists wanted a deal with the Unionists, but the various wings of the IRA stopped that in the Six Counties.'
Everybody knows Unionists would not engage with nationalists also, so it was a two way street. Only one motion put forward by nationalists in Stormont between 1920 and 1969 was adopted by a Unionist dominated devolved parliament, all the rest were out voted by the Unionist majority. There is no evidence that the Unionists wanted to work with the Nationalists, quite the opposite actually.
'The Loyalist paramilitaries do not need the majority support of Protestants to wage war.'
Irish unity will only happen if there is an agreed Ireland. In that context, it is difficult to see how loyalist paramilitaries will be able to murder their way into staying in the Union - the rest of Britain will not support it. In the context of a democratic process, their activities will only undermine their own position and will make them international pariahs. It must be remembered that Unionists strategic thinking has been poor in recent decades - a return to violence would be counter productive.
'I don't think the 26 Counties' government wants a referendum on the North. They cannot afford it. If it happens, it will be because the British want it to happen; they get rid of this problem and it becomes Ireland's problem.'
It is true that Dublin does not want a referendum any time soon, not in the context of Brexit. If allowed to occur naturally over the next say 25 years (perhaps longer) in the context of NI taking opportunity for prosperity that NI having access to both the EU and UK markets can provide, the cost of NI will be much reduced if not eliminated. We know from a poll of Tory party members in 2018 that they want Brexit more than they want to maintain the UK and so we must be thankful that the GFA prevents them from dumping the NI. The Irish government must also be party to any referendum, as the vote must happen in both jurisdictions on the same day. At present, nobody knows what a united Ireland will look like, in part because unionists will not allow a discussion to take place, and so there is no appetite for unity just for the sake of it in the south.
'The census data is unreliable.'
So I checked your claims and could not find any supporting evidence in various academic papers on the subject, and you don't provide a source.
'This Brexit issue will fade away.'
It won't. The UK is now engaged in a never ending negotiation with the European Union, not just on the protocol, but on every aspect of its relationship with the bloc. The EU is unlike to change what you call 'behaviour', because to change its rules for the UK so that it can have the benefits of membership without the responsibilities (which is what it amounts to) will undermine the Single Market, the goose that lays the EUs golden egg. It will take some time for this penny to drop among Brexiters as their media turns everything the EU does into a 'punishment' or a 'capitulation' in the face of the UKs decision to leave the EU.
'No one in the elite in Dublin wants Northern Ireland (they are too intelligent to take it). Irish unity at this point in time is a pipe dream; it cannot work.'
Not so. Most people aspire to a united Ireland, just not now. Dublin has established a 'Shared Island' office as part of a long-term strategy to create an environment where the unity of people can take place in practical ways; the two economies are already rapidly integrating since January this year and this is likely to continue. As stated above, in the long-term the economic prospects of NI look very positive which will assist unity in the long term.
'The Loyalists often hate, but I would not call it irrational. It is based upon their historical experiences with the Irish Catholics.'
It is both historical and irrational. I agree, that there is real sectarian tension between unionists and nationalists in parts of NI - but projecting that into a united Ireland scenario is irrational. The idea that a small minority can hold a veto over the democratic will of a majority is simply unsustainable in this day and age. It is no longer 1912.
'Would you want to live in a state that wants to eliminate your identity?'
Again, the Irish constitution - remember we in the south voted voted for an amendment - by 94% in 1998 - acknowledges Irish identity as a being a multi-layered one. We've had a half Irish half Indian and homosexual Taoiseach for example. Irish identity accommodates being Irish and something else and in recent years there has been an increasing acknowledgement of the shared history Ireland has with Britain. 17% of people living in the republic were born somewhere else, so the republic is comfortable with both its own identity and the identity of others living in Ireland. So who exactly is going to take away the British identity of unionists? How could it be done? It may be the case in NI that Catholics and Protestants at interface areas view each other in the traditional manner, but that is not the case in republic. In any negotiated Ireland, the identity of unionists can and will have to be accommodated and copper fastened.
The smartest way for Unionists to prevent a united Ireland is through working with the Nationalist middle class that were presently happy in the Union - but there is no sign of this happening yet, not in any major way at least. This is a strategic error, in my opinion.
The X factor here are the changes occurring in Britain. It seems to me that a natural outworking of Brexit is England becoming independent and the dissolution of the United Kingdom. Should this occur in the short term, this is has the potential to be a disaster for all of us, but it does not appear to be imminent at all at the moment. A Scottish departure is more likely on the face of it, and while this could be a huge psychological blow to Unionism, it is unclear that London will give them a referendum any time soon either. Constant conflict with the EU may keep the English onside for some time to come as it will distract English nationalists and provide somebody to blame for the short comings of Brexit. But who knows?
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