Comments by "SonsOfLorgar" (@SonsOfLorgar) on "Matsimus"
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@alangordon3283 umm... the logistics already changed with this system.
A towed mortar system carries at the most 10-20 rounds/piece of which at least a quarter is smoke shells and all in crates or plastic quivers.
That towed mortar platoon also requires at least one flat bed 4x4 or 6x6 cargo truck for hauling the rest of the ammo on cargo pallets.
The GrkPbv90120 can carry twice the ammount of a towed system just in it's ready racks, and then that ammount again in secondary storage, effectively eliminating the need for ammo trucks in the unit itself as one Mjölner platoon can go back to batallion ammo depot to fill up when down to <30% while the other platoon covers the line companies of the batallion in it's absense until relived.
This along with the fact that the mortars are using the same chassi as the mech inf companys CV9040 IFVs, CV90ARV, CV9040FCV and CV9040FOV as well as the CV9040AAV of the Batallion AA section means the logistics chain of the entire formation has been reduced by an entire link.
On top of that, the towed m1941D/E 12cm mortars the Mjölner replaced was towed either by unarmored 50year old Volvo tgb13 utility trucks(Civ designation volvoC306) or just as old unarmored Hägglunds Bv206 utility tractors...
Both of which just aren't capable of keeping up with CV90/Strv122 battle speed even if the towing vehicles had been factory fresh... which they aren't, the newest were built in the late 1980ies and has been driven around in every weather in every terrain all year round by 18-20yo conscripts, enlisted soldiers and officers both in Sweden and wherever in the world we sent expeditionary contingents under UN or EU command.
While the fact that many of those utility vehicles still serve with tens of thousands of miles on their meters is a true mark of excellence on the quality of their design and the dilligence of Swedish army maintenance procedures, those utility vehicles are like that pair of old, super comfortable sneakers that are litterally falling apart and beeing held together more by ductape, dried sweat and nostalgia than the fabric, glue and rubber they were made of.
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@omaral-maitah181 this was designed for peer level combat.
In this context, the enemy has located the firing unit down to a 500m radius by the time the first round fired from a new position peaks it's trajectory.
By the time the second round fired peaks, the enemy radars have the firing position coordinates down to a 10m radius and issending those coordinates on to their own counter artillery systems.
60 seconds later, those counter artillery systems are completing the final checks on bearing, elevation and ammo settings before loading.
3minutes after the mortar battery fired it's first round, enemy shells are beeing fired towards the mortar battery position.
4 to 5 minutes after the first mortar round left the tube, an enemy artillery barrage arrives at the firing position.
A towed mortar unit would, at that moment, at best, still be where the enemy shells starts raining death as they jump into their vehicles to move out after packing up their gear...
A Mjölner unit would be 50-100meters away from the firing position the enemy aimed at, moving away at 40-70kph AND protected by the armor of their vehicles.
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@EP-bb1rm
1) the hull, drive train, suspension and layout of the CV90 is tried and tested for both weight capacity, upgrade potential, crew comfort, ease of training ease of maintenance, ease of repair, adaptability and survivability by multiple, independent nations.
It was, after all, designed to be operated, maintained and repaired by 18-20yo conscripts fresh out of school...
2) The company that designed and builds it has been owned by BAE for decades and has already provided the Brittish army with several other long serving vehicles.
3) The CV90 hulls, suspension, tracks and drivetrain could likely be licence built in Brittish factories, ensuring parts availiability in a crisis.
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Your reflection on time and resource constraints bringing a more professional and problem solving attitude was very interesting from a Swedish perspective.
It brought the Swedish reputation for professionalism in international peace keeping/ peace forcing operations into a new context.
The new context beeing that the Swedish armed forces are built around a system of cadre officers who in peace time are serving a level below their rank and station than when mobilised along with compulsory conscript selection and compulsory training if selected for everyone at 18 since 2017 (it used to be compulsory for boys until 2006 and optional for girls between 1990 and 2006).
The conscript training lasts 7.5months for privates, 10months for squad leaders and specialists, 12 and 15 months for platoon and company NCOs respectively.
Navy does things differently in service length.
Also, the equipment used used to be rotated mobilisation stores, which meant limited availiability and anything that broke should be repaired in the field if possible or handed on to repair techs when back at base.
And considdering that those 18yo conscripts, less than two weeks out of high school who's drivers licences are so fresh the ink is barely dry on the temporary slip issued while the actual licence is made (driving age is 18 in Sweden), should be fully trained for every role assigned within those time frames, from grunts to sonar operator, attack divers, combat medics, tank commanders and strike aircraft controllers...
Under those conditions, there's little to no time for faffing about with anything that isn't absolutely essential to the service at hand.
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We had seargeants that would take their field jackets off, lay on the floor on their chests and slide under all the beds.
If they had any dust or dirt on their pine green undershirt when they got up, from any of the four barracks rooms, the whole platoon had to clean all of their assigned areas again, same if they found any dust on their black tanker beret after swiping the window spars or the boards around the door frame or the top of the lockers with it.
Also, our female sgt. had a tendency to wear white cotton gloves during weapon inspections, and she could get her pinky finger into places on our modified FNC carbines we conscripts couldn't reach with a cotton swab or even a smoking pipe cleaner...
Commonly, we locked up our carbines due to time constraints long before she was satisfied with the inspections...
And we were a 12cm mortar platoon! If we had to rely on our carbines in direct combat, odds are, most of the battalion we belonged to would already be or about to be KIA, MIA or POWs...
Don't regret pushing through those 300 days though, and nowdays I'm doing the same thing I did then, 16 years ago, only as part time national defence militia and with an older, G3 based battle rifle instead of an FN FNC based carbine.
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Heh! In my final exercise of conscript training, we got overrun by AFVs twice without previous warning...
Only we crewed 12cm mortars with a 300m physical min range, so no direct fire option.
First time by a T-72 run by a crew from the army ground combat school.
Second time by two CV9040, we knocked the first one out, the second returned the favour...
Good side is, first encounter was just at the end of that day of exercises, so we got to chat with the tank crew and watch the vehicle up close.
And the second encounter took place near a training field administration complex where the commisary field van was located, so we spent the time until 'revival' snacking, smoking and resting in the warm (~18°C) spring sun on top of our Volvo ATVs with most of our combat kit stowed on our seats. If we didn't keep our rifles, helmets and gas masks within arms length at all time during field exercises, the seargeants (who in the Swedish army are officers cadets in field training) got creative to drive the lesson home.
The consequence of the latter was apparent at least once among swedish peace keepers in the balkan wars when at least one Swedish soldier engaged the attackers of his outpost in nothing but helmet, webbing and boxer shorts as he'd been resting when shit hit the fan.
And he stayed in his position for a few hours until he got relived.
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@00yiggdrasill00 both, every soldier has the same infantry basic training for organised self defense, but specialist assets like artillery, air defense, Electronic warfare etc, need escorting troops to create local safe zones, and artillery needs to move around, often.
You can only send one firemission per battery site or you'll get located and counter batteried to mince meat by anything the opfor can find to throw at you. Even if they have to sacrifice a full mechanized company or even risk loosing an attack helicopter to eliminate a single mortar platoon, they will throw those assets away in a heartbeat without remorse.
Mortars in urban combat is that dangerous and versatile. Especially 12+cm mortars that can set FRAG fuses to airburst, contact or delayed, smoke and starshells can also be set to ignite well after they are intended to, so that they fill a house with smoke or set it on fire instead of smoking off a street or turning a dark city sector into eerie daylight with long, fast moving shadows.
And then there's heat seeking top hitting anti tank shells, and I'm pretty sure the russians have mortar deployed anti personell landmines...
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@spartanx9293 then what makes it so inferior? What is your benchmark criteria?
And what is the competing vehicle(s) you see meeting those criteria here and now without modification or development from their current state?
As for if/which of the other variants availiable would be desirable, that would be a doctrinal decision I can't speculate on due to insufficient knowledge.
But from a logistical standpoint, it's very sensible to use the same platform for as many nessesary vehicles as possible in each respective weight class just for parts intergangeability, ease of maintenance, ease of supply and ease of training.
Eg, when an IFV breaks down or is damaged, it's going to be a lot less of a logistics load if the mechanics doesn't have to have 5 different spare parts kits for similiar vehicles of different chassi in a single mechanised company.
As in, each mechanised company in a Swedish mech inf formation comes with a number of IFVs, FOV, FCV and ARV, all on the CV90 chassi, increasing the margins between full strength and strategically defunct as the crews and vehicles and spare parts are almost completely interchangeable without retraining.
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Same, though we, like everyone else also have some just as nasty slime in the bottom of the barrel.
Or at least, had, I've gotten the impression that the temporary hiatus of conscript service and the accompanying mass demilitarization, while a disaster on the materiel and facilities side to the point where I considder it criminal destruction of public property, has also washed out a lot of the really bad, penalistic, sexist and authoritarian disgraceful officers that were able to hide their abusive nature in the old system by covering up eachothers crimes against conscripts and cadets alike in a way that became impossible in the near decade long era of contract employed soldiers of all ranks that's now gradually beeing replaced with a new mix of contract employed and conscripts, though I understand it as if individual battalions are single form, either contracted full time, contracted part time or conscript but not mixed.
And Home Guard separate but with a much higher and earned status than in the old system.
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Old Swedish cold war doctrine was to 1) make your own door with a Carl Gustaf HEAT shell just below a window where the radiators usually sits on the inside. If possible, a half or one stair above ground level.
2) Clearing team rushes forward from a protected position as close to the target as possible, either riding on top of an APC/IFV/Tank or carrying ladders.
If riding on an APC/IFV/Tank, the vehicles main or coax&pintle guns are used to further supress the breaching zone while the support section that opened the hole shifts fire to supress the floors above, and side platoons provide flank cover vs. other streets and buildings.
If no vehicle is used, the first thing up the ladder is a frag grenade.
The breeching team secures the breech and adjacent rooms, then estimate the protective value of the interior walls.
3)A second squad is sent in, if the walls around the entry zone or one of the adjacent rooms is solid enough to stop splinters, the second squad applies plastic explosives to the roof and blows a hole up. A frag goes up, then the second squad pushes up and clears that entry zone, rinse and repeat until the attic is reached, then clear the building top down.
Any connected buildings were to be accessed through making breaches through the attics.
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Yup, 12cm mortars: min range 400m, optimal range, 3-8km depending on munition.
105mm gun howitzers: min range 150m
Optimal range, 300m-15km
155mm gun howitzers: min range 150m
Optimal range, 1km-35km
Max range, 40-50km depending on munition
Dismounted infantry: min range, fist/knife meets kidney
Optimal range, 50-200m
Max effective range, 350-600m depending on platoon level support weapons.
Theoretic max range: ~1500m.
IFVs: min range: tracks make squashy sounds.
Practical range: 50m-1500m (out to 3km if fitted with ATGM launcher)
Tanks: min range, same as IFVs, practical range 20-4000m
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In the Swedish army, the Carl Gustaf m/48 replaced man portable mortars right off the bat and in 1958, the CG got it's iconic tag team squad level asset in the FN MAG built under licence as the Ksp m/58.
Each infantry squad getting one CG and one FN MAG and, once LAWs became a thing, each rifleman was supposed to carry two m72LAWs, then in the 90ies to present day, the riflemen are supposed to be able to bring a single AT4 or NLAW each, all stored in or on their AFV when not on foot.
Lowest level indirect support is 12cm mortars, either towed in the home guard militia, or as the twin tube Mjölner mortar CV90 (think better, non amphib Bradley style IFV chassi) with a twin tube assisted loading mortar in a frag protected semi-turret capable of 6 shell MRSI
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@TrangleC The point is: aside from the home guard militia that's taking over the army and costal artillery branches old m/41(Finnish designed) 12cm towed mortars, the Swedish defence forces are fully mechanized.
Thus, along with the reality that any foreign invader would have near peer level capabilities for artillery locating radars and counter battery measures, the artillery pieces we can afford to field and man, needs to have as short scoot delay as possible and be armored against fragmentation and small arms fire.
Ergo, the self deploying towed Bofors FH77A was replaced with the Bofors/Volvo FH77 Archer, and the towed m41 mortars were replaced with the assisted loading dual tube semi-turreted Grkpbv90120 Mjölner in the mechanised infantry battalions, supporting the Strf9040C/Patria360 mounted infantry and Strv122B tanks with on-hand indirect fire, each individual Grkpbv having the same volume of fire as a fully manned towed 4-piece mortar platoon.
As for the 105mm howitzer, no. Finnish trials has showed that the angle of attack from a mortar barrage is almost twice as effective on target as a howitzer barrage of equivalent shell weight and fuse. On top of that, a 105mm howitzer shell is too small to feasibly develop effective special purpose munitions of the same range that the Swedish 12cm mortars already have. In particular, the IR homing, programmable top attack AT mortar shell marketed as STRIX.
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@cav1stlt922 yeah, comming from a rank and file specialist, the best officers I've had have all been humble professionals who leads as much by example as they command, and who knows the skills, limitations and special quirks of their subordinates enough to trust that they will do all they can to meet the objectives on time and device alternative courses of action as the situation on the ground requires while informing the command chain of new opportunities where possible and adhering to the purpose and intent of the strategic deployment rather than blindly following incomplete plans from pencil pushers when reality smashes those plans.
Eg, my Captain and platoon CO during conscript training who even outright told us during a morning assembly, that as long as we gave him all we got in the field exercises and whereever else it actually counted, he'd have our backs on base vs. other officers when it came to stuff like boot polish or otherwise wearing the uniform in a less than immaculate manner when heading for the cafeteria or laundry/supply depot etc.
At the final bout of validation exercises, we managed 59second for a rapid extraction with the whole platoon of 3 towed 12cm mortars and two 30t ammo trucks, one with a bogey trailer from fully deployed across a 75×75m square to 500m away. All personell and essential equipment accounted for.
And we delivered our fire missions on time, on target every time throughout the two week long validation field exercise.
All Swedish officers had to go through conscript training as platoon or company level NCOs with impeccable grades to qualify for cadet training, they then had 2 years of cadet school before serving as seargeants in a conscript training regiment for two more years before they graduate as JrLt. Then the 2+2 year cycle repeats for each rank level until they reach LtCol.
Ranks of Col. and up was appointed by branch HQ staff comitte of superior COs.
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@WarHawk- sounds accurate, meanwhile, in 03/04 in a Swedish 12cm mortar platoon, we were issued much of the same, HEFRAG-FS (combination fuse with impact, post impact and airburst setting), Smoke (impact fused) and illumination. In case of war, we would also get a PSVINGGR 94 SLUFA
(HEAT-FS, End Phase IR-Guided/Homing, adopted in 1994, also known by the manufacturer designation as STRIX) with optional rocket booster module for extended range.
All shells came with 7 charge rings mounted around the fin shaft and two more extra in the protective lid of the ammo packaging.
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