Youtube comments of Tony Sterbenc (@tonysterbenc).

  1. Thanks as always for evaluating vehicles honestly through the lens of meeting their intended purpose for an actual buyer. There will be no shortage of YouTube and print reviewers whose analysis of this car won't extend beyond wetting themselves over it. We depend on you for this instead.
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  2. At $93,000, the Durango and Kia comparisons are pretty crushing (although loaded Durangos inexplicably cost real money themselves). Agree with the comment below that the honesty is, as always, refreshing and something we've come to depend on in a Savagegeese review.
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  3.  @hockie655  This is revisionist history. Mercedes was never, ever exceptionally reliable, and never close to being as reliable as same-age Lexus LS, ES or RX cars. Durable? Some yes, some no. Reliable? Not as they aged. Pretending that Mercedes' tech advantage came without a reliability price is just that: pretending.
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  4. To be fair, the selling proposition of the Mercedes brand has never been that they're the best value for money in any segment. There are segments where you can make a decent argument that nobody in the class precisely matches their product, notably the S Class, although even there it sounds like the 7 is making that tougher.
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  5. OMG. Only Savagegeese does an embedded commercial even better than the program.
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  6.  @misternordberg3675  Count me as one of those "sycophants." I don't care how deeply uncool you get your rocks off by claiming I am. I admire this work. I can't say the same for your "mine's bigger" posturing. You have no idea, and no interest, in how much harder it is to research and create a work than to insult it.
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  7. That explains how it got clapped out.
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  8. Thanks for a very practical perspective. A friend just picked up one of these, and I was impressed by the quality of materials and level of style inside for a non-luxury nameplate. Together with the high-quality running gear, it gave an overall impression of quality that I personally can't feel with the Korean competition.
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  9.  @Ty420  Fun, maybe. Reliability, not at all. The Toyota eCVT shares absolutely none of the unreliable belt-driven linkages that make Nissan's Jatco-built CVTs such a nightmare. It's as bulletproof as any transmission you can buy.
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  10.  @davidvanderklauw  It's simpler than we're told: Monopolies have the power to set prices. Anti-monopoly antitrust laws went unenforced from 1981 to 2021. In that time, nearly every industry became dominated by only 2 or 3 players, and they collude to fix the prices of nearly everything we buy (and everything those companies buy). As Yves Smith of Naked Capitalism puts it, "Prices go up because companies raise them."
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  11.  @davidryder5082  I meant I don't own my left foot. I'd never lease a vehicle, though. :.D
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  12.  @itsmeydna  This. ES has done this for 30 years.
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  13.  @420basco  Not really. Used car prices have exploded so insanely that any used car under $15k is generally used-up crap. Unlike pre-pandemic times, new cars are often better value propositions now. And, a lot of buyers looking used can't get the best financing.
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  14.  @cmontes7961  Seriously, at these prices, if a kid hauler doesn't also do that, what can it do to be worth $93,000?
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  15. Demented genius. One of the greatest Savagegeese videos yet and that's saying a lot.
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  16.  @davidvanderklauw  Yep. A true free market wouldn't give a massive tax advantage to businesses that use money to make money, rather than producing something useful. Like, say, insurance companies.
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  17.  @lukewalker1051  Luke, this isn't even the first time on this thread that you've slandered Mark as a payola-taking shill, all with precisely zero evidence. Where are your ethical credentials to trash others like this?
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  18.  @ericscottstevens  Eric, not everything is because of a government conspiracy. Do you think the profit motive and the short-term focus of stock market investors were recent inventions?
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  19.  @G-Rated  Coincidentally, I was just reading the Consumer Reports reliabiliity data this morning. Across multiple vehicle categories from sedans to sports coupes to big trucks, GM vehicle consistently line the bottom of the birdcage. So they'd better separate themselves from the pack in some positive way as well. Eventually, owners tire of cheap Chinese parts failing at any price.
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  20. Production note: Jack, compliments on doing a better job here than before on sharing the room with Chris so he could show to advantage. It let him look more comfortable and eloquent on camera, and as as a result, my reaction as a viewer was that I found the video more comfortable to watch.
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  21. Sounds like most of these 20 lessons could be summed up in one word: Humility. Thanks for sharing the lessons this professional odyssey has brought to you personally. At multiple levels, we appreciate what you do.
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  22.  @frankcastle9691  Ah, that explains it. Yeah, I'm no fan of engine configurations that belong on ATVs or tractors or something.
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  23.  @CadexLaw  As a CR subscriber, I'm aware of that. I'm looking at the year-by-year, model-by-model, system-by-system breakdowns in the back of the April 2022 Auto Issue. Obviously the '23 issue is about to come out, but there won't be any great sea change because all the previous model years except '22 were already out there last year. And your comment is why I carefully specified that I was talking about what happens in Year 3 and beyond; the Germans have long been known to be engineering their cars to last the length of the lease plus five minutes. Please don't tell me you've never heard this pointed out elsewhere before.
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  24.  @derbigpr500  This is the usual nonsense European car owners have dished out for generations to rationalize the poor long-term reliability of their cars. I've owned German cars. I've owned Japanese cars. I maintained both. My personal experience reinforces the mountain of objective evidence that your statement is not correct.
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  25.  @hockie655  And because Mercedes models more often needed to be repaired. My personal stash of Consumer Reports survey issues goes back to 2002. I checked, and every single Mercedes model surveyed had a worse-than-average reliability rating for most years 2002-2007. All Lexus models were above average to excellent.
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  26.  @Kelsoplayz  Couldn't agree more, Miquel. That janitor jab was a crappy, elitist little cheap shot by a crappy, small person.
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  27.  @artempavlov4599  The Outlander is better than you expect from a Mitsubishi because it's a reskinned Nissan Rogue.
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  28.  @MrGrowler20  That's all it takes to make you laugh your backside off? My, you're easily entertained.
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  29. I'm a lifelong Democrat, but be careful what you wish for. If bad intentions become prosecutable, you've opened Pandora's box for the next Republican president and attorney general.
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  30. This post 100%, except it's not aimed at young Americans either. It's co-developed by Guangdong and BYD, and aimed squarely at the Chinese market. That's why it not only looks Chinese, but places new emphasis on rear-seat executive seating, because affluent Chinese buyers have a driver. It wasn't a coincidence that unlike all previous ES's, this one was announced in Shanghai only.
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  31.  @kirksmith347  Attacking someone with words like "triggered" or "woke" doesn't make them wrong. What he was accusing you of was poor manners, and your projection-laced reply proves him correct. It cost you nothing to simply post the very same comment alone rather than as a reply to the other poster's comment. But the other guy's comment has 30 likes, so you figured you'd get more exposure by drafting on his comment. Why verbally abuse a stranger just to deny the obvious?
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  32.  @ellishoke1693  He doesn't really think that. Just its powertrain. It's a running joke on Savagegeese.
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  33. WHY WOULD THEY OVERHAUL THE CAR LESS THAN A YEAR BEFORE THEY'RE BRINGING OUT A WHOLE NEW ONE? AND WHY ARE YOU SCREAMING IN ALL-CAPS WITH FOUR QUESTION MARKS????
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  34.  @savagegeese  Mark, it's been obvious for a while now that you in particular have begun to despair that the coming EV era would have nothing to offer for the enthusiast. Hope for you is hope for all of us.
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  35. This video will never get a million views. And we all understand that if you did 4 of these, you would lose your shirts. That said, this is a valuable piece of historical scholarship for those who love cars, and will be lastingly valuable. From all enthusiasts, thank you for this labor of love.
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  36. He reads these comments. You guys are brutal.
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  37. Unless you drove the ES 250 AWD, this is a bizarre comment. So, instead, you bought... basically the same car with the same engine? And if acceleration was your problem, why didn't you buy either the Avalon OR the ES with the standard-equipment smooth, powerful 302-horsepower V6?
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  38. A remarkable journalistic effort from a team with limited resources of time and money. I'll confine my comments to one aspect of the production: During the drive, Jack knows what he wants to convey and he gets right to it. But if the intent is to establish Chris as an on-camera presence going forward, he's improved his delivery to the point where he deserves more breathing space to opine outside tight boundaries and finish his statements. Again, overall, bravo.
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  39. The ES has had a structural rear-seat brace rather than a fold-down seatback for over 30 years. They'll continue to not notice your absence from the showroom.
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  40. For ride/handling balance, any German midsizer whips the ES. For value or for long-term ownership, the ES wins. The old rule still applies: Buy Japanese, lease German.
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  41. Jesus Christ, Naveen, you've been hopping on every Toyota and Lexus thread for months to slam Lexus and fanboi Genesis. Along the way, you've said numerous specific claims that are provably false. Give it a damn rest.
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  42. And what's needed to achieve that is an overhaul of financial markets, how we regulate and tax them. Toyota has a long-term planning horizon because that's what Japan's finance sector rewards. GM burns the furniture to hit its numbers every quarter because America's institutional investors will brutalize the stock price (directly cutting the CEO's pay) if they don't.
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  43. Then you'd waste your money. It's designed for regular.
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  44.  @carloslopez9486  Big asterisks on that. First, it's for the COMBINATION of those three traits and others; it doesn't mean they're the best at each one. Second, it's an averaged rating across all their models, which is pretty meaningless when you're buying only one.
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  45.  @tundrav8georgia  Honestly, yeah, excitement isn't what you'd get an ES for. Although the V6 version has more highway scoot than you might think.
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  46. Okay, but all ES's have had a structural reinforcing seatback brace rather than a fold-down rear seatback for over 30 years. So, the deal's been broken to you for a long, long time.
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  47.  @lecahier  Neither, I think. More to add rigidity for lower noise, vibration and harshness and a feeling of solidity. They wanted a luxury-car feeling from family sedan bones.
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  48. Nope. FWD. Only the 250 is AWD, and it's a non-hybrid.
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  49.  @frankcastle9691  4-cyl, but yes.
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  50. And the molten Caprice taxicab.
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  51.  @ducktails1695  Some people do keep their car for hundreds of thousands of miles, when their car is good enough to give them a choice. There's a thing called economic hardship. You may have heard about it between latte's.
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  52. I think they tried and tried and Lotus couldn't deliver.
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  53. My guess is that they're spelling out the name because Asian audiences sometimes find brand names spelled out in Western alphabet characters to be charmingly exotic. Everything about this car is understandable when you remember it's designed for a Chinese audience, not for us.
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  54.  @chillpengeru  Agree. If you take the flip side of Chris Freemesser's argument, "Teleport in a 10-years-younger version of Mark, and he'd put more weight on responsiveness and less on avoiding aggravation." And that's equally valid.
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  55.  @CadexLaw  For the term of the lease, maybe. Over longer-term ownership, no. I wanted to base my reply on facts, not just my prejudices, so I re-checked the Consumer Reports defect survey data for various models of both cars. (CR has some silly opinions, but their data is data.) After 2+ years, neither BMW's cars nor your assertions about them hold up.
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  56. We get it. You think the ES is overpriced. This is true, but universal among all luxury goods. You're not just paying for the car, you're paying for the dealer experience and, ultimately, the brand. For those who feel, like you, that it's not worth the difference, there is still the Camry. No reason for anger. No problem.
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  57. Subaru has quietly been cutting off its commitment to the go-fast crowd for nearly a decade now. Track the horsepower increases of main competitors vs. the WRX standing still around 300 ponies.
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  58. I think you deserve a special shout-out for the title of this review. It sums up in six words why I got mine when I did.
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  59. The base model is a better value for sure, the sweet spot probably being the base with Premium Package (figure low to mid $40s) that adds leather, wood and some niceties. You're right about the mechanicals.
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  60. We got an old Prius for my wife, and the first thing I did was ditch the gas mileage tires for tires with real traction. Now it gets 45 mpg instead of 48, but it also doesn't slide all over the road and it handles much better than you'd think. I'd be very interested to hear the handling review of this car with really good tires on it, and if it gets 37 miles of EV range and then 48 mpg insted of 43 miles and then 53 mpg, who cares?
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  61. You should be. It's nearly twice as expensive.
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  62.  @musicmann5516  So what. Do they not count as people?
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  63. Yes, I agree. It's easy to see how he got so popular. In person or online, everybody's always looking for an honest mechanic. Ten Scotties aren't worth one of this guy.
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  64. Give it a rest.
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  65. Got the infotainment update for '23.
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  66. @Michael Discontinued for several reasons. As Mark said, MPG and EPA pressures were surely a factor. Also because it wasn't selling well enough in an SUV era, and to leave a reason to buy the less roomy and more costly Acura TLX.
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  67. No, Mercedes is a rich man's car. Lexus is for a rich man who wants to stay that way.
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  68. I'm an owner and it's surprisingly a non-issue, maybe because it's a sort of medium grey color that hides all sins. I just wipe off the 4 or 5 sensors for the safety nannies.
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  69.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, yet another in your long string of anti-Lexus trash posts. Yes, we know you have a Camry XSE. Yes, we know you think it's "just as good as a Lexus." Yes, we've heard your repeated (and false) assertions that Genesis is outselling Lexus. Stop embarrassing yourself.
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  70.  @0hypnotoad0  If Toyota says it has the stuff to make more hybrids than EVs, and it proves its sincerity by making far fewer EVs than it can sell (as proven by the waiting list for this car), I see no reason to disbelieve them. For that reason, I don't think chip constraints are a convincing reason for them to not make this car.
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  71.  @0hypnotoad0  I agree with most of what you said, but you didn't argue with anything I said either. It seems clear Toyota got caught with their pants down on EVs, and their CEO paid with his job. I'd guess agreement with the poster who theorized that Tesla has sewn up a lot of the limited supplies of lithium and manufacturing capacity for big batteries at LG and Panasonic, and that's to their credit.
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  72. I'm a lifelong Democrat, but be careful what you wish for. If bad intentions become prosecutable, you've opened Pandora's box for the next Republican president and attorney general.
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  73. Outright lie is a little strong. I'm 6'2" with a long torso, and my head never hits the ceiling.
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  74. According to independent reliability surveys, no it's not. I know this was 2 years ago, but it's just as false now.
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  75.  @jackholmes8105  I can't say enough about how much entertainment my brother and I get from what you and Mark do. You are my absolute favorite #1 YouTube destination, and the only one of any kind I subscribe to. (It didn't hurt that I ordered my new car, then saw that Mark had reviewed it and praised it for the exact same reasons I'd chosen it.) I happen to live in your area, and while I won't stalk you guys, it'd be a thrill to just happen to see you doing your thing on the road sometime!
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  76. You see a lot of old Odysseys around. Often the only tell about their age, aside from the rear quarter window shapes, is the trademark Honda rear wheelwell rust. Although the newer ones have the dicey cylinder deactivation that compromises not only the engine guts but also the motor mounts, I still trust the J Series oodles more than the Kia powertrain in particular.
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  77. No.
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  78. A 360 bird's eye camera is available on the top model.
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  79.  @Cynical496  "If you have some money, you get a Lexus... People with real money don't go running to a Lexus shop." So which is it? Lexus buyers pay with simulated money? Lexus shoppers walk in but don't run? Do you read your own posts before you send them?
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  80.  @InvictusRed1911  SH-AWD remains the trade-up card they withhold from Hondas (except Pilot) to upsell you to Acura.
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  81.  @CadexLaw  You many not go by old wives' tales, but you do trust surveys with a sample size of 2: your current BMW and your previous BMW. I prefer a sample size of 200,000, like the 2023 Consumer Reports Auto Issue. Here's their brand new listing of predicted reliability for all listed vehicles by both makers: BMW 230i: Average BMW 2 Gran Coupe: Average BMW 330i: Better than average BMW i4: Average BMW X1: Average BMW X3: Average BMW 530i: Average BMW X5: Average BMW 7 Series: Average BMW Z4: Average BMW X5: Average BMW X7: Average Lexus IS300: Better than average Lexus UX250h: Better than average Lexus ES: Better than average Lexus RX: Better than average Lexus NX350: Better than average Lexus NX350h: Much better than average Lexus GX460: Much better than average Lexus LS500: Average Lexus LX: Average
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  82.  @CadexLaw  Whatever personal priority you place on reliability vs. entertainment is just fine. But it's not what your previous post was about. You're changing the subject rather than admit you were wrong and were busted for it by a list of documented facts. Why don't you just own it like a man?
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  83. Or people who want an ES designed for them need to stop living in America. This one is designed for Chinese buyers, not Americans. This is not an ES as we know it. The ES as we know it has been discontinued, because of the shrinkage of the American sedan market.
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  84.  @lionintu  Yes. Wired in '22, wireless in '23.
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  85. ​ @dm17nc17  I own an Ultra Luxury. The big items are the leather, additional soundproofing, the 360 parking cameras, and the rear sunshade, plus the fact that most of the Ultra Luxurys are coming off the line with the other options that are available on paper from other trim levels but often aren't in the actual cars, like the Mark Levinson and the triple beam headlights. I'd encourage you to decide whether those individual items are worth it to you -- for me, the leather and the best stereo were on my personal must list, so it was a no-brainer. If not, don't pay extra, because Savagegeese for one felt that the base with a few options (wood-trim Premium Package, Levinson) is a much better value for money.
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  86. Sounds like you did the wise thing. You'll be glad you're driving what you like a lot longer than you'll miss the modest extra cash you may have left on the table.
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  87. It's not a "misstep" so much as a packaging limitation. There's physically not room in this sedan platform for both the AWD transfer case and the larger engine.
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  88. This car absolutely takes regular gas, and I can personally confirm that as an owner.
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  89.  @hockie655  I was quite up front that I checked these numbers because they were the oldest ones I could get my hands on. It's also useful to remember two facts: 1) The 1990 Lexus LS 400 broke through immediately because the ownership experience of late '80s Mercedes models was so bad for the high prices. If you dispute this, you fly in the face of virtually every automotive historian, not just me. 2) We've all raised our standards considerably for automotive reliability. My old '71 Buick threw a wheel bearing at about 60k, needed plugs (often), plug wires, distributor caps, had perforating rust in multiple places by age 6, and had lots of other little irritants we forget now because no modern car inflicts them anymore. When we say an '80s Mercedes wasn't close to being the most reliable car of THAT TIME, it's saying a lot.
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  90. The ES 350 is a gymnasium by comparison, especially in the back.
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  91.  @THEODORIEUS  Depends on what you're after. The E Class handles much better and has newer tech. The ES is softer and smoother, and is much more affordable, reliable and durable.
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  92.  @nikos6220  Last time I saw C/D test a Tesla, that's how they did it. In fact, that's how Savagegeese included Subaru in their recent sports-compact comparo. Prublem with that approach is that it puts a burden on both the broadcaster and the viewers to factor in the condition of the provided used car—as Geese proved when they blew up the engine of the Subaru.
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  93.  @christianx2k  From Toyota's own viewpoint, though, RWD wouldn't "simplify" the ES, it'd kill it. The ES lived while the GS died because its humble Camry/Avalon bones give it a price advantage of over $10,000. In the end, Americans weren't willing to pay that tax for superior handling.
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  94. I don't even care about Porsches, but this is just a terrific review. You've provided what any viewer would want to know, from inside or outside the Porschephile community. You remain on your trajectory to dominate as the thinking person's YouTube car review channel.
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  95. What do you value? Because it's already pretty apparent how they'll compare. The ES will be moderately but not radically restyled, probably moving toward an RX-style grille. Both will have similar infotainment. Neither will have V6 smoothness, and if you value that, waiting will be a mistake. EDIT: Boy, was I wrong about the "not radically restyled." Yikes.
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  96.  @cosmo1505  Sounds like you made the choice that's right for you. Enjoy your new luxury ride!
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  97.  @kensmechanicalaffair  It's cheapness, period.
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  98. Not badly. Snow tires generally make pretty much any car manageable in winter. They're more important to winter traction than AWD.
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  99. UL also has the vibration-absorbing Yamaha Performance Dampers bolted to the frame, which the base model does not. Some people complain that the "Ultra Luxury" name means nothing because there's still a lot of amenities left optional, but some of what's included is invisible yet significant.
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  100. In fact, it is a lot. Even more than the larger LS 500.
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  101. So I take it you didn't see his review of this car's direct competitor, the Lexus LS500, which he criticized at the end as simply not as smooth or special as its predecessors -- or its direct competitors.
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  102. I'll bet it'd do better than that without the MPG Gumball Special tires.
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  103. It does have wireless Android Auto, and has for years.
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  104. But reviewers don't "rate this car so well and above others." Virtually every reviewer on YouTube, the web or print magazines has all but unleashed their bowels on it. There's a consensus that it doesn't match any of its major rivals in room, ride comfort, performance or technology. Savagegeese himself comments in this video's thread that Lexus beats luxury rivals only in durability. What reviews have you been seeing?
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  105. I can't criticize those who have the money for wanting the experience of a luxury product, but I think your first sentence cuts to the heart of the problem: Whether a luxury customer or a regular Joe/Jane, it's impossible to justify paying full-on luxury prices and not getting a full-on luxury product.
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  106. You're incorrect, and you've posted this inaccurate post before. First, it got a touchscreen for '22 and ditched the touchpad entirely for '23. Second, your sales figures are false—it sells as much as the 5 Series and E Class combined. Stop your careless lying.
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  107. You say "MSRP pricing" like it's a good thing.
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  108. Yes, but it won't be a sedan. It'll be the "Crown," basically a low-roofed Highlander SUV, replacing the Avalon. Everybody wants SUVs now.
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  109.  @feodor6445  What about it? Do you often compare cars to other cars that are double the price? That said, the LS's reliability is not as good as the simpler, more proven ES.
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  110. Check that: in INITIAL INTERIOR quality.
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  111. Your Patreon member who said Costco gas is substandard was wrong. Costco is recognized as Top Tier, which means it meets carmakers' standards for having the extra detergent ingredients to not carbon up and clog direct injection systems. That member didn't know what they were talking about.
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  112. Coleman might be the most effective PR guy right now working for any automaker that sells in the US.
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  113.  @questioner1596  Right. While I'm not a fan of how it behaves, people who don't care about that deserve to know that Toyota hybrids' transmissions have NONE of the reliability problems that plague the Jatco boxes in Nissans, for one notorious example.
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  114. I know one poster who's starting to sound just a bit insecure.
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  115. Yes it would have been an easier sell, because it's a better car.
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  116. Yeah, with several recent reviews culminating in this one, these two have lost all credibility with me. There are 10 other YouTube review channels that are clearly better. To name a few: Auto Buyers Guide, Realistick, Savagegeese, Car Care Nut Reviews.
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  117.  @Vinh616  "Lots of those interior plastics probably feel nice in person but looks very cheap." They didn't say it's not "soft touch." You're misquoting johnjames.
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  118. Someone does make a Buick Park Avenue. It's called the Lexus ES.
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  119.  @MrLew1965  I agree, but that's not what you said. When you said "best on the planet," that rules out "for the price." Now, if you said "Dollar for dollar, the ES is..." I think you've got a much stronger case there.
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  120.  @dudleyfuddpucker7017  You got a great deal, without a doubt. That's a ton of car for that money. Congratulations.
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  121.  @Allthingschrysler  Nate, what you've got is a survey with a sample size of 5. If you don't know why that falls short of surveys as "proof," I've got one word to recommend for you: education.
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  122. I'm older and apparently an outlier, but I miss the death of onboard nav just as much as the 2.0T. I'm just as unethusiastic as you are about giving Google my whereabouts. Not incidentally, I had to shut off my anonymizer or Google wouldn't let me post this comment. Think about THAT for a second.
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  123. SUVs are the present and the future. Already, the 2 top US Lexus sellers are the NX and the RX. The product dealers were clamoring for isn't an LS replacement, it's the TX.
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  124. It does okay, as most cars do. Winter tires have been found to affect winter traction more than AWD does. It will break the fronts loose on acceleration very readily, though. You'd want to drive it in Eco mode to mute the throttle response.
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  125.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, you back here embarrassing yourself with your anti-Toyota trash posting again?!
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  126.  @jbmiii4813  Yeah, but the advantage of the fob method is that it's free and the subscription doesn't expire.
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  127. Your comment that the F Sport Handling "doesn't compromise on ride quality at all" is not true, and has been refuted by numerous testers including C/D and Savagegeese (see the video "Last and Best Updates"). This must be pointed out so you don't mislead others.
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  128. No. They're very different. This car is on a whole new platform, the first for the Camry/Avalon/ES in about 25 years. It's longer, lower, wider with less seating height in the back, and it's a stiffer and more communicative drive.
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  129. if you'd reject a car based on the sexual politics of its celebrity endorser, chances are something or other would alienate you anyway.
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  130. Betcha they've shifted all the R&D onto their EVs and are mailing in the rest.
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  131. For them, I'd recommend the Corolla hatchback. The rear seating area is tighter but that matters to them less, and the cargo versatility is far greater so it's more practical as their only car.
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  132.  @oi32df  Legit recommendation, but if we're opening it up to used cars of all ages, that opens it up to the Camry, Prius and others. Besides, older buyers appreciate the trouble-free reliability of a new car, too.
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  133. Or blame themselves. Manuals on a lot of cars had something like a 5% take rate when they were offered. Just like the forum posters who all wanted a brown station wagon, except none of them actually ever bought one.
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  134.  @OdyTypeR  IMO, you might just as well blame the Big Three automakers, whose lobbying probably was the reason for that big-truck "footprint" carve-out in the first place.
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  135.  @MrMustangrick  The ES 300h is FWD only, including in the US.
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  136.  @MrT-nh6di  Thanks for your permission. Because of it, I WILL keep believing a sample of 200,000 owners over your sample with a size of 1.
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  137. You lost me at "woke."
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  138. The LS LOOKS similar to the ES, which has been a source of great irritation to LS owners. But their mechanicals are as different as night and day. The ES is an Avalon/Camry platform mate with all-steel underneath and FWD that lights up the tires when you don't want it to. Its naturally aspirated V6 is a gem (although much less powerful than the LS's entirely different V6), but it's a whole different class of car under the skin.
    3
  139. FWD is because using Camry underpinnings allows them to sell this for half the price of the LS 500. If you want dedicated RWD/AWD components and have $100,000 to spend, for you there's the LS 500. The IS 500 is much faster and much smaller, and does not compete directly with the ES.
    3
  140. No, you missed the point of a car review, which is to pull no punches. Lexus was reliable, its cars fully engineered, and had outstanding dealer support from Day One. Genesis has been around for over 5 years and still hasn't fully resolved any of these. Genesis is "trying" to do what Lexus did, but the fact is they haven't done it and they may or may not ever.
    3
  141. How many different videos by this creator are you going to pollute with your own personal inability to tolerate beliefs different from yours? And if a guy with this level of expertise isn't working on your car, you've cleared a little bit of his valuable time for the rest of us. Good riddance.
    3
  142. I'm not a fan of either of the last two presidents. But I'm sad to say, the "hysteria" about the climate is 100% justified. Killer hurricanes, killer heat waves, killer droughts, and killer fire seasons are all real and will only get worse.
    3
  143. Yeah, but the Buick of Lexus is a whole lot more reliable than the Buicks from Buick. That's a better grade of boredom.
    3
  144. Lexus cherry-picks the best workers for the Lexus line, which is separate from the Toyota line and runs slower. It trains its US assembly workers with many of the same techniques it uses for its Japanese ones, and it builds the cars to far tighter tolerances than Toyota-branded US models. I think my US-built ES is very well-built and solid.
    3
  145. They will. Only thing is, "the customers" will be Chinese. That's who it's designed for, not the shrinking number of executive sedan buyers left in America.
    3
  146. ES loyalists will defect to... what? It's the last car of its kind. I think the loss of the V6 in 2025 may be a different matter, though. Losing that smoothness and quiet will be a real loss to the core values of the car.
    3
  147. Congratulations! I think he made the value choice from the ES lineup, and reviewer Savagegeese recommended that trim level as well.
    3
  148. I thought that too, until I test drive the Mazda6 Turbo. Michael Karesh at True Delta did a direct comparison between the two, and concluded the Mazda was the superior value but the Lexus was the superior car.
    3
  149.  @Mylifeislegendary982vd3-vI  Your first sentence and your second sentence have nothing to do wth each other. Yes, future ES's won't have a V6, because emissions laws will force it out. Yet, buyers like trainsandlocomotives and myself believe the V6 IS necessary to make this car behave like a luxury car should. You can make a four-banger hybrid powerful, but you can't make it melodious.
    3
  150. According to just about every reviewer, pretty ridiculous. Car and Driver described the feel as a Camry for twice the price.
    3
  151.  @Cynical496  I've owned both. Lexus has its points over Acura, too: more reliable, better build quality, quieter, comfier.
    3
  152. @ I think you misread Miroslaw's post. He never said Honda knew more about metallurgy. He said they had higher standards for their parts.
    3
  153. None. This question gets asked a lot, especially since the now-dead Avalon Limited had them for less money. Some other countries have fancy ES rear-seat options, not just heat but rear-passenger controls. I think they skipped them in the States to hit a price point and to avoid encroaching on the LS.
    3
  154.  @capitalexotics  Glad I could help. Good luck in your shopping!
    3
  155. Still the most economical luxury sedan you can buy that doesn't give you range anxiety on a long trip, too. And still one of the most outstandingly reliable powertrains of any description. Not my personal cup of tea either, I'll admit, but it's very very good at what it's made to do.
    3
  156.  @Cakewalk.  Let's talk about why you're here. You come on Internet message boards under an assumed name to insult people over their choice of car. Then, when they show the self-respect you lack by responding to defend themselves, you call them snowflakes and run away. What a small life and shriveled manhood you must have.
    3
  157. Yes, but a pretty big chunk of the luxury buyer market cares a lot about reliability and dealer experience. Genesis is competing with BMW and Mercedes for the style crowd. Lexus has this group of customers all to itself.
    3
  158. Yes. The UL and Luxury have laminated glass, noise-reducing wheels, and chassis-mounted Yamaha "performance dampers" that soak up low-frequency chassis vibrations.
    3
  159. Can? Hell, you can fill the crankcase with snot if you wish. Should you? No.
    3
  160. I gather this is some sort of political comment, but I have no idea on earth what it means.
    3
  161. What do you want us to say? "Oooohh, he's such a daring and provocative poster"? Okay, you don't like their looks. I'm not sure about yours, either. So?
    3
  162. Poor sales. The ES was stomping it 10 to 1 in the US at the end. I think that was a combination of things: It looked rather nondescript, grafting the cheese-grater grille unconvincingly onto the front didn't fix that, it was down on tech and horsepower compared to the Germans, the touchpad repelled a lot of buyers (including me personally; that was my deal breaker). Above all, though, I think American buyers just wouldn't accept a luxury performance sedan without a German badge.
    3
  163. You didn't notice more road noise because the A6 is built on a dedicated luxury sedan platform that has more structural rigidity baked into the cake. But the A6 also costs more to build, buy and repair. The compromises inherent in converting a family sedan to luxury car duty are central to both the pluses and minuses of the ES.
    3
  164.  @hynsum  Freakin' Stellantis. The American* makers exasperate me so much, because they can make an excellent car on the few occasions when they care.
    3
  165. You're not. They eliminated the CD player for 2023 as part of the console/infotainment overhaul.
    3
  166. It's obviously not a question of whether Toyota is capable of building what you're calling for. They did with the GS, and the ES outsold it 10 to 1. Lexus is giving the people what they want.
    3
  167. I was thinking the exact same thing. It's an older design but it's aged well to my eyes, and it seems to be the most expensive-looking and nicest offering in the class.
    3
  168.  @RicardoLivinLargeTho  Agree. You don't buy a Lexus because you wanted either the latest tech or the sharpest corner carver. You buy a Lexus because you wanted quality, and because you're buying -- not leasing and trading.
    3
  169.  @markrozenberg7959  With all due respect, that's pretty cherry-picked. First, JD Power usually measures just "initial" quality, with no regard for durability. Second, nobody said the 3 is the best or only competitor. Even if we pretend the Lexus IS doesn't exist, I'd bet on the A4 to have higher quality than either of those.
    3
  170.  @DragonKnightX12  Huge power gains on the aftermarket, by definition, means they haven't delivered it themselves.
    3
  171. Not quite. The LS very reliable by the standards of high-end luxury cars, but the ES's greater simplicity and proven, bulletproof engine make it more so.
    3
  172.  @danmcgov123  It's already a publicized fact that this is the last-gen Accord sedan. So if you're expecting the next Accord to be "more exciting," you'd better be the type who's aroused beyond description by crossovers.
    3
  173. Luke, I believe you've posted these comments before. First, your ethical smear at Mark is baseless slander. Second, as WR says below, Toyota hybrids have proven their reliability (check CR's row of bright green dots on a decade of Priuses). The engines get less strain, the brakes last 100k, and the batteries are now warrantied for a decade. I agree with you on one thing: (Your mean-spirited) "ignorance should never be rewarded."
    3
  174. My family just faced the familiar choice between the CX-5 and the CX-50. Hearing about this car developing rattles and squeaks, as one might expect of the one that lacks both independent rear suspension and Japanese craftsmanship, is not shocking but it's disappointing. What we ended up with was a used CX-5. And yes, it feels expensive and is still tight as a drum.
    3
  175. This comment is spectacularly ignorant. The LS is engineered from the ground up as a Lexus and shares few non-engine parts with Toyotas. The ES (which is the subject of this video! Did you notice?) IS Toyota-based, but has always been exceptionally reliable and durable with very low operating cost -- exactly the opposite of a "money pit." You deserve to own and pay for German luxury cars as punishment.
    3
  176. Speaking as a total amateur, I think if cost were no object—cost to buy and cost to operate—anybody would choose the MDX. "Sensible" is a bigger part of the mission statement for this car.
    3
  177. You're not wrong, but G80 with a V6 is also $15-20k higher in street price, and it's not terribly reliable even right out of the box.
    2
  178. Acorn.
    2
  179. None. This is a trend; many of its direct competitors don't have one either.
    2
  180.  @RO49569  I don't believe there has ever been a Lexus ES since 1990 that had folding rear seats. Lexus has always used an extra brace behind the rear seatback to add structural rigidity instead, leaving room for only a ski pass-through. I think Lexus believes, right or wrong, that luxury buyers value the added refinement more than they'll miss the cargo versatility.
    2
  181.  @mholmes9262  I think you're right, but I'm reminded of the Acura TL and the superficlally similar, similarly sized but much more expensive Acura RL. The RL was much more expensively made and bristled with quality and subtly delightful amenities throughout, but nobody (not even Consumer Reports) could get past the TL's similar feature list and size for less money. I think Lexus knows that about us as consumers, and doesn't want to cannibalize the more premium car when it's selling poorly already.
    2
  182. 100k leaves room for many, many alternatives, from the full-size Volvos to a loaded A6 or 5 Series to various luxury SUVs, not to mention Genesis G80 and even the base versions of the staggeringly plush G90 that competes (favorably) with the Lexus LS and the S Class. I like my ES, but I couldn't go that far.
    2
  183.  @John.Christopher  I think the best color combination for the interior is one that wasn't offered in 2022: tan seats and brown striped walnut wood trim. I have the interior in this video. It's nice and in good taste, but the black wood (stolen from the Germans) wasn't worth stealing; it's a real anticlimax. I think the G80 interior is a knockout and looks costlier than the ES's, although the diamond pattern on the leather is a bit of a sultan's bedroom. But I'm with you on the multiple screens. I think they're the undoing of every car that has them.
    2
  184. Yes and no. Their reliability in the first few years has improved greatly and is now much better than Mercedes in particular. Long term, they are still not made to last multiple years without multiple failures. They're still leasemobiles, just better leasemobiles than before.
    2
  185. Good luck finding a Sienna. I have a family member who gave up after several months on a waiting list and bought an Odyssey.
    2
  186. If you mean that brand new Chinese ES refresh, my grandma looks better than that. And she isn't alive anymore.
    2
  187. Your IS350 is essentially this, except it's built on a completely different chassis, powers the opposite end of the car, is less roomy, quiet & comfortable, but is faster, better-handling and more maneuverable. In short, it shares nothing with the ES except its engine and its parents.
    2
  188.  @richardc6932  It is one of the weakest aspects of the car, although rear-wheel drive in that regard is even worse.
    2
  189. Welp, mark you down as a non-buyer.
    2
  190. Stop waiting and buy an RX or a Crown Signia. Won't happen.
    2
  191. I think they skipped them in the States to hit a price point and to avoid encroaching on the LS. It does have cornering lights, although not in the conventional location. What it lacks is fog lights.
    2
  192.  @E_Rice  Very inconspicuous, an extra LED in the headlight complex.
    2
  193.  @kensmechanicalaffair  That's true. Mercedes was the first of these brands to dare to sell "luxury" cars with vinyl upholstery. They pushed it as a quality feature, "MB-Tex." BMW followed suit, and finally Lexus did the same. AFAIK, only Audi still delivers real leather on all models. I believe there are some new Lexus models with fake wood too, which I really find depressing.
    2
  194.  @ishaansaral502  Ishaan, I've been hearing for 20 years now that Hyundai has outgrown its quality and durability problems. Some of the faulty engine claims are for recent vehicles, including my nephew's Soul that's still well under warranty. South Korean auto workers are about as well paid as Americans, so the lower cost doesn't come from cheap labor -- it comes out of the car. Geese detailed some of that. But some of it isn't visible until the car ages, with stuff like loose bodies and scratchable plastics.
    2
  195. Fixed for 2025.
    2
  196. Fine car if you can stand the horrid puck-based infotainment.
    2
  197.  @johnstone7697  The key to your statement is "relatively low HP." They've always been willing to adopt advanced technologies (FWD, AWD, OHC, turbos) after everybody else debugs them. But they also always understress them so they fall short of competitors in output. That "old school" aspect of Toyota will probably never change.
    2
  198. In both engine and suspension sophistication, both those vehicle would leave the beam-axle four-banger Mazda in the dust.
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  199. Be sure to spec the aftermarket option of the fire extinguisher.
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  200. AWD superior? Sure. FWD "often dangerous"? A bit overstated, IMO.
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  201.  @hugdeath929  Agree. My last car was AWD, and I miss that feature. I just thought "often dangerous" overstated a bit what I'd probably call "less fun and occasionally a problem."
    2
  202. Ah! The anteater GM minivans! With the windshield washers fed by hoses to the wiper arms that inevitably wore out and split.
    2
  203.  @christopher-gardner  Ex-girlfriend, once she reads this.
    2
  204. Fair question. This has been a standing difference between the Camry and the ES for 30 years now. I think Toyota decided that for ES buyers, the added structural rigidity was more essential than the extra cargy versatility. We can question that decision, but at least they've been consistent.
    2
  205.  @ShowMeWhatINeedToKnow  For a long time, it kinda was. Since the '18 Camry and '19 ES, they've been building on an entirely new platform that's massively more rigid than the old one. But it's still engineered to meet family sedan cost targets, which its German rivals don't have to do. The ES's value story has always been that it could deliver more luxury per dollar by drafting on the volume efficiences of a family sedan. That remains true today, with both the cost reward and the dynamic compromise.
    2
  206. Yes. And they're getting it; it outsells both the 5 Series and the E Class in America. Starting price is only $40k, though.
    2
  207. In practice, cold weather has proven to be no problem for these cars at all. Toyota has spent the last 20 years field-testing the system. The ES has the fourth generation, and it's proven tremendously reliable.
    2
  208. They do. It's called a Highlander Platinum.
    2
  209. Almost identical, yes.
    2
  210.  @MikeBlue77  Just like forrestedgar said. The Ultra Luxury costs that much, just like the A4 Prestige.
    2
  211.  @nagendrapatchpulusu  Yes, the LS with a V6 twin turbo, but it's nearly twice the money.
    2
  212. ...of price.
    2
  213. No. Low $40s to start, $57k loaded.
    2
  214. I had the same experience with waiting 5 months and still having Lexus refuse to build the car optioned out to my specifications. They just don't do it.
    2
  215. The Camry and ES are closely related. That's a good thing if you need parts or service, and in fact a Toyota dealer can service most parts of this car at lower hourly rates. But the ES has a number of upgrades where you don't see: structural reinforcements, special shocks, soundproofing, better paint, tighter assembly tolerances, to name a few.
    2
  216. The maintenance may not be as easy as you think. This is reportedly a very complex engine if you have to open it up. Very un-Toyota in that way.
    2
  217. Both are comfortable. The ES 300h is quieter at low speeds around town, when its engine often shuts off and it's coasting on electric power. The ES 350 is quieter under hard acceleration, when even an extra 3-layer insulation sandwich at the ES 300h's firewall can't fully smother the din from the 4-cylinder engine straining at high RPMs.
    2
  218. Honda has made lots of cars that sold poorly until they were no longer made, then proved to have been ahead of their time and became sought-after used cars. The S2000, the Element and the 3rd gen SH-AWD TL come to mind.
    2
  219. And I'd say you have a very nice car!
    2
  220. Skis can go through a rear-seat pass-through. Bikes, you're screwed (so am I, and I'm sincerely not happy about it). But this is not news — the ES has deleted the Camry's drop-down rear seatback in favor of additional structural bracing since the inception of the ES 300 over thirty years ago. Evidently this is Lexus's reading that luxury sedan buyers want quietness and freedom from creaks more than cargo capacity.
    2
  221. "Switching cars doesn't make that much financial sense." You answered your own question. Bless you if you have the cash, though.
    2
  222. The ES has chosen additional structural bracing over rear-seat folding ability for over 30 years. Your expectation was never likely to happen.
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  223. Not feasible on this generation. There's not enough room under its platform for both the V6 and the AWD transfer case. The next-gen ES in '25 will have AWD and more horsepower, although no V6 anymore in any model.
    2
  224. Thank you for your carefully considered expert evaluation of this model.
    2
  225. That warranty would look a lot better if I had more confidence that the company behind it would still be selling cars in this country halfway through the warranty period.
    2
  226. Because the ES has more room, quiet, comfort, features, build quality and dealer support.
    2
  227. Nothing compared to a RAV4? With all due respect, you're the only one anywhere I've seen saying this.
    2
  228. Ultra Luxury trim level has it.
    2
  229. You don't live in the United States, then.
    2
  230. Wow, that is one of the wildest comparo questions I've seen lately. A new Toyota hybrid station wagon, or a 20-year-old V8 top-end luxury-brand sedan? Points for original thinking, at least.
    2
  231. Wheels and tires are at the top of your list. You don't mention which trim level you have, but wheels with noise reduction chambers are standard on Ultra Luxury and available off the dealer's shelf (albeit for a princely $900 a wheel) for all others. Also, of course, tire choice can make a big difference in noise levels.
    2
  232. Completely disagree about the infotainment/nav. It was cutting-edge at the time, and except for mating with phones only for hands-free calls, works very well even today if you retrofit an AUX input (a pretty easy job for a stereo shop). The nav is remarkably accurate, pretty intuitive, and updateable with an easily obtained trunk-mounted DVD. It has surround that sounds great, an implementation of the iDrive knob that worked vastly better than the original, and voice commands that worked too.
    2
  233. Sat in the back? This has more room back there than the Crown Vic, easy.
    2
  234. Do you realize they wasted a ton of space behind the grille and with a giant driveshaft hump and over the live rear axle, and didn't really provide much more room or pampering for passengers?
    2
  235.  @ralphabreu5022  That's silly, Ralph. I didn't say Town Cars weren't spacious. YOU said an ES isn't big enough to compare with it. Livery firms keep Town Cars for the same reason they always liked them: They're dirt simple, cheap to operate, and a whole industry grew up around supporting them and the Crown Vic taxis and cop cars.
    2
  236.  @ralphabreu5022  I hear ya. But they really didn't have any choice, because those cars were SO primitive they could no longer pass today's tougher smog and safety rules.
    2
  237.  @ralphabreu5022  I think American carmakers no longer mind the basics. If you want a car that's really reliable and durable and made from good parts, who do you look to now? Toyota. I think they slash costs to please the stock market so the executives get their bonuses, and it comes out of the product. There's still good minds there; it doesn't have to happen. It's all a management cheapout decision.
    2
  238. On May 8, you got your wish!
    2
  239. Since nobody replied... They're not in the same class, and the LS is unquestionably superior on the whole. But some people have described the ES as providing 80% of the LS luxury experience for 50% of the money.
    2
  240. That's because both cars went to a new, upgraded architecture for 2019. You were comparing today's apples to yesterday's oranges.
    2
  241. The '20 ES didn't, but the '22 does.
    2
  242. The idea that Jeep will disappear this year is silly clickbait. I don't even like Jeep, but it's still an iconic brand that appeals to lots of people for its rugged image. Its reliability was never good, so that's not even news. There's nothing wrong with the marketability of the Wrangler that cutting the price back to 2020 levels wouldn't fix.
    2
  243.  @CraigC-h6b  V6 will be gone, sadly. It'll have four-cylinder choices only: probably one with a turbo like the base RX 350, one with a hybrid battery like the current ES 300h, and probably one or two with both a turbo and a hybrid battery that'll be the fastest option, possibly with AWD.
    2
  244.  @naveenthemachine  "it’ll be expensive toilet paper from a cheap brand lmao" And you're the one calling other people trolls, eh?
    2
  245. The '22 ES does have a touchscreen. The real garbage, IMO, was the '19-21 touchpad-dependent interface. It was exasperating and almost unusable.
    2
  246. Alas, it won't be. The ES succeeds where the GS failed because the cheaper Camry/Avalon bones of the ES give it a massive cost/price advantage the RWD-based GS didn't have. Ultimately, Americans weren't willing to pay for superior engineering and handling.
    2
  247. They got rid of some back speakers for 2019 in an apparent cost-cutting move, then compounded the problem with an apparent amplifier issue that resulted in nearly no sound coming from the back. It's been somewhat fixed as of '20 or '21, but it's still designed as a front-oriented "concert hall" experience that dissatisfies some listeners.
    2
  248. Seen it in person? I rather like it. It's worth noting that some LS500 owners are angry at the extent to which Lexus cribbed interior and exterior styling cues from the LS and graced them on the much cheaper ES. That includes these door handles, which were lifted directly from the LS sedan and LC coupe.
    2
  249. You'll get your wish for '26. Rumor has it that they were aiming for '25 but got delayed by a late decision to reconsider the changes.
    2
  250.  @mikej238  Oh, so you've seen Naveen's posts too!
    2
  251.  @maga6319  Wow, I don't think anybody's called me "Kid" in 40 years. Thanks for the compliment -- makes me feel like a kid again! :.D
    2
  252.  @maga6319  So, you admit to Mike Jones that you're homophobic, too. You can cherry-pick recalls, although if anybody bothers to get into a Toyota vs. Hyundai recall contest with you, you're not going to win. More to the point, objective surveys like Consumer Reports prove your claims of excellent Genesis reliability and "average Toyota reliability, like Ford" are simply not accurate. Get your facts right.
    2
  253. I think one thing you may be overlooking is that the humble Toyota Camry these days is a pretty good car.
    2
  254. I can't speak for CCN, but my impression is that the three cars really aren't very similar. The Signia is an Outback-like tall station wagon with a quiet Lexus-like vibe. The RAV4 is better for tall cargo but cheaper throughout, although the Prime probably has the most agreeable drivetrain of the three. I'd probably pick the Signia for cross-country trips and the RAV's for schlepping a couple kids.
    2
  255. If I'd known that the GS's dreadful mouse puck could be replaced by a touchscreen with little or no loss of function, I might have taken a harder look at the 2014- GS instead of the new ES. I wonder if the last-gen GS accepts that transplant as completely as your car did. Meanwhile, in your position I think you did exactly the right thing. The GS is always going to be a better, more high-end driver than any ES.
    2
  256. It doesn't remove it, exactly. Only the Luxury and Ultra Luxury trims have it.
    2
  257. Wagons are gradually making a comeback. They're just jacked up 2 inches and called "crossovers," like the Outback and Venza.
    2
  258. It's supposed to be better. The Hlgihlander is not designed to be a direct competitor to the much more expensive MDX, it's competing with the Honda Pilot. Is the MDX better than a Kia Soul, too? It better be.
    2
  259. Not exactly. The three cars all use different versions of the same platform. It was introduced in 2018 for the Camry and in 2019 for the Avalon and ES. Your 2018 ES 350 is built on the previous platform.
    2
  260. For better or worse, replacing the Camry/Avalon's fold-down rear seat with an additional structural brace has been an ES staple for 30 years.
    2
  261. This is a very well-informed comment. I have no idea how it ended up in this thread full of flag-waving homophobic trash. Especially hilarious are the multiple posters denouncing him for saying the car lacked broad appeal, put up by posters who said it AFTER the car was already discontinued for poor sales.
    2
  262. Rumor has it they got delayed by a year because marketplace events drove them to an eleventh-hour change of strategy.
    2
  263. Contact the Lexus zone office NOW, before your warranty expires. Get on record that you have this complaint while you still have warranty coverage to demand that it get fixed for free. Go to another Lexus dealership if necessary; all of them are authorized to do warranty repairs. But don't wait.
    2
  264.  @timbrown9731  I'm completely biased since i have a V6 Toyota sedan as well. But yeah, like you say, those people have to turn somewhere. And the Accord's dimensions are startlingly identical to the final Avalon's in every dimension, inside and outside.
    2
  265.  @rachelgreen1368  Rachel, I agree that the old Japanese Infiinitis are much better built than the new ones. In fact, we have one of those old Infinitis in the family, at my personal recommendation. But Lexus and Infiniti are in different positions, because they're backed by very different companies. Lexus has been stable, successful and backed by an ultra-solid parent company in Toyota that has continued to build reliable cars in multiple countries. Nissan has drained resources from Infiniti as it was first taken over by low-rent Renault which cheapened the quality of all its cars, failed to invest in keeping its products modern, then rocked by scandal that sent its CEO to prison. Consumer Reports quality surveys have confirmed the result: high-quality cars from Lexus, deterioration in quality among newer Infinitis compared to the old ones. Continued good luck with yours.
    2
  266. Because it didn't sell, and because GM felt forced to follow Ford's lead in dumping all sedans, trying to compete with Tesla for stock investors' money by portraying itself as a future-focused and high-margin "tech" company. (No, it doesn't make any sense to me either.)
    2
  267.  @bluwng  Oh, it gets worse. Even if you upgrade to the Luxury or Ultra Luxury that has wood and leather standard, you still have to pay a la carte for the navigation and upgraded stereo, the upgraded headlights, the upgraded sunroof, and some other stuff.
    2
  268. Your sentence has so many negatives in it, I sincerely don't know what you're asking.
    2
  269. I respectfully disagree with your comment about physical controls (full disclosure: I'm an old fart). The difference, as with all other haptic and touch-control dominated cars, is that you don't have to operate your phone while directing your attention elsewhere to avoid ramming two tons of metal and plastic into an abutment and dying in a screaming hail of flying glass and crunching metal.
    2
  270. Go '22. The touchpad infotainment in pre-'22 editions is truly infuriating and hazardous to use.
    2
  271. Even though I'm old, this is silly stereotyping of young people. They don't have money because billionaires have wiped out good post-school jobs for them. Few factories, few IT jobs, fewer middle manager jobs, fewer entry-level jobs. Try buying a house as a Walmart or Amazon employee. The cost squeeze between layoffs and corporate greedflation is real.
    2
  272. Long-waisted 6' 2". I have enough headroom and more legroom than I can use.
    2
  273.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, read statements by Ford's ex-CEO that the Lincoln philosophy is to NOT invest in mechanical upgrades because a cost-cut Ford with a prettier interior satisfies luxury buyers at lower cost and higher profit. Yet you're ripped the ES in over 100 posts for exactly that. You're a hypocrite and BS-er, and I'm sick of it.
    2
  274. You're not wrong. The lack of a folding rear seat is for the same reason Lexus has done it with all ES's for over 30 years: because they add a trapezoidal reinforcing brace behind the rear seatback. Evidently they've decided that luxury buyers value the improved rigidity and its handling and NVH benefits more than the family sedan buyer's priority of cargo versatility. You could think of it as the price of coaxing luxury sedan behavior out of the family sedan bones that keep the ES affordable.
    2
  275. This isn't said nearly enough. 100% agree. Check out the book High And Mighty for answers. They aren't very flattering to either the automakers or their customers.
    2
  276. Yeah, but they'd also go slower and cost an extra $10,000. Their different personalities on the road reflect the different priorities of their managements. Legend has it that Toyota demands every design be able to go 250,000 miles, with the resut that they detune everything. All engineering is about choices.
    2
  277.  @malav_patel  Depends on what you want. If you want the performance you expect from a luxury car, or even from the V6 ES350, no. If you just want it to be adequate for ordinary use and reassured you can pass and merge without getting killed, you'll be fine. It's 8.1 seconds to 60, which is decidedly mediocre, but owners report that its prompt throttle response makes it feel less bad than that number implies. As always, test drive before you buy.
    2
  278. It might be a fine choice. The only caution I'd offer is to see whether the RX offers easier entry and exit with its higher seating position.
    2
  279. Good for you. The IS F is a fundamentally different car than the ES 350, with more sport, less luxury and space. But I'm glad you found the car that's right for you.
    2
  280.  @SavetheWater1  According to Savagegeese, don't overlook the lower-priced new Honda Pilot either. Less luxurious inside, but a more pleasing engine than either of these vehicles, torque-vectoring AWD the Lexus lacks, and more room than either.
    2
  281. That was a lot of it. It's said the American-styled TL and the Japanese-styled RL/Legend were designed as competitors in the same styling exercise. The TL looked dynamic and sporty for US buyers and was a big hit. The RL, parked next to a previous-gen E Class, is an easily spotted outright plagiarism, much as Lexus's LS plagiarized the larger S Class.
    2
  282. Given this car's Civic roots and its low price, I expect NVH will be an achilles' heel.
    2
  283. Ford needed not to destroy the reputation of the brand by knowingly equipping 90% of them with a grenading crap transmission.
    2
  284. Hi, Faisal. I haven't seen Savagegeese answer this question. But you probably saw his video of the ES 350 where he said you could "take it to the grave." He was talking mostly about the engine and transmission. (BTW, Wikipedia says the engine in the LS 350 is not exactly the same as in the ES 350, it's the engine from the GS 350. But that engine is very, very similar to the ES 350 engine.) He has said that he has doubts about the serviceability and repair cost of the twin turbo engine on the LS 500 (it's not just the same engine with turbos added, it's a whole new engine and much more complicated). So I'd guess he would not say "take it to the grave" about the LS 500, but he would say it about the LS 350.
    2
  285.  @JuanRivera-lj5lu  Unfortunately, it will never happen. The current car doesn't have room underneath for both a V6 and an AWD transfer case. The next one, probably 2025, will eliminate the V6 and offer probably the powertrains (all 4-cylinder only) that you're seeing now on the Toyota Crown.
    2
  286. Incidentally, I have no idea what you're going on about with the climate control buttons. I own one, and I find it easy and convenient -- one button turns it on, 2 buttons adjust fan speed, a toggling button sets fresh/recirc, and the heated/ventilated seats manage themselves.
    2
  287. If you want reviews without opinions, there's Edmunds, Consumer Reports and 63 other reviewers for you. And yes, you're getting old (as, alas, am I).
    2
  288.  @mishmohd  I agree. You shouldn't buy anything just because it makes economic sense for the manufacturer. I bought one because with the luxury room & ride with Toyota reliability for less money than any direct competitor, it made economic sense for me as the buyer.
    2
  289. The UL and Luxury trims include acoustic glass on the front side windows and noise-reducing wheels that other ES's don't. i can't speak to how much noise reduction they provide, but I did drive a loaner base car that was pretty quiet but less so than the UL. Some people say they notice wind noise around the pillars and mirrors at highway speed without the window upgrade.
    2
  290. They're all similar enough that I'd buy by age (newest best), price, condition and service history rather than by model year preference. Don't rule out the highly similar and better-priced Toyota Avalon in your searching either.
    2
  291.  @babycakes8434  Careful not to generalize yourself right out of some nice used cars. Avalon interiors are definitely cheaper than ES, but each generation is different, and they're still better than Camrys. Also, that door trim is vinyl.
    2
  292. Right about the Levinson. Like all truly accurate sound systems, it's as good or bad as the source material. Note that you have to set the audio settings individually for each input source. Many including me recommend shutting Surround off and the fader two steps toward the back. Enjoy!
    2
  293.  @thisismagacountry1318  Of those two, I have experience with both and would pick the Vredesteins. Also consider the Michelin CrossClimate 2.
    2
  294. 100% agree. Own a Lexus. It's an interim execution that tacked on the touchscreen to supplement the existing trackpad. I never use the pad, and when I've tried I encounter nothing but frustration and failure. I would never never ever have bought the car without the touchscreen, nor liked it.
    2
  295.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, you've destroyed your credibility in all matters Lexus with your relentless months of Genesis fanboi trolling and your falsehood-filled smears against Lexus products, including the ES.
    2
  296. Wow, it's like I'm looking in a mirror. I sold my lovingly maintained Acura RL to a family member and got an ES 350 Ultra Luxury. I was looking for a luxury car with a quality interior, a great stereo, smooth power and a refined ride. The ES is not perfect, but it's damn good and I know it'll likely stay that way at very little additional expense for a long, long time.
    2
  297. They won't, ever. A Mercedes executive already crowed publicly that electric cars will be great for Mercedes profits because the drivetrains are much cheaper to build with a fraction of the moving parts, yet they'll charge just as much for the cars.
    2
  298. Looks are subjective, and I've heard a lot more wowed reactions to the Prius than to the clean but generically sterile Accord. The price advantage will be steadily eroded by the higher cost of operation. And in case you didn't notice, the two cars are not remotely in the same class. You'd have had 37% more credibility for your trolling if you'd even said "Civic Hybrid" instead. (BTW, the Prius is both faster and more economical than the Civic Hybrid just introduced in Europe, and coming here next year.)
    2
  299. That's a helluva car you've got there. I'd just fix it and daily it.
    2
  300. Not really direct competitors. The Lexus IS competes (poorly) with the G70. This car really doesn't have any direct competitors anymore. It has more room and ride with less handling than those cars. The G80 is much nicer, but also much more expensive when comparably equipped.
    2
  301. I thought he was quite respectful of this vehicle. I didn't detect him putting on airs. One of Geese's strengths is that he always respects each car's intended mission. For those who want absolutely no attempt to entertain, there's already Alex, you know.
    2
  302.  @ricknowak4582  I agree with Faint that the ML upgrade is worth the upcharge for those who care a lot about sound, but I recently heard the 10-speaker system and was pleasantly surprised at how decent it was. That said, neither the base nor the ML provide a real sensation of surround, whether they were striving for a "soundstage" in front of you or simply cheaped out on the speakers behind you, or both.
    2
  303. Your plan is the best one available for what you want. Sorry, because I agree with you.
    2
  304.  @dozie6650  Tire noise specifically, dunno. Overall quietness, most say ES.
    2
  305. Mazda doesn't WANT it to be a box, though. They're not Toyota and can't compete at the volume-car level. They need something to set them apart and ask a little more money, and that equation includes an extra dash of style. This car was developed simply by jacking up a Mazda 3, so it echoes most of its dimensions. For those who want a box, there's HR-V & Corolla Cross.
    2
  306. This is your third post on this thread ripping on this presenter for a grand total of one religious reference ("May the good Lord bless and keep you," at the very end after you watched the entire video full of useful automotive advice). Keep your personal vendettas confined with you in Mom's basement.
    2
  307.  @rightlanehog3151  Interior colors, too. You can't even get a decent tan on an ES now.
    2
  308.  @rightlanehog3151  In Europe, buyers are conditioned to be willing to custom-order the car and wait. Previously, Americans expected to walk onto the lot and drive away in a car. Maybe the current situation will change that; time will tell.
    2
  309. Yes.
    2
  310. For what? Absolutely no tester has found this.
    2
  311. Not true of this generation RL, which used a beefier and later 5-speed that also delivered trouble-free service in later Odysseys and Pilots. The 3rd gen TL transmission in the same era, yeah, that was glass.
    2
  312. Opinion question. For most, no. For those who have the money and who place a high value on luxury in both the car and the dealer experience, yes.
    2
  313. And a lot of LS owners are really annoyed at how similar the cheaper ES looks. When I was shopping for this car, I was knocked out by how identical they looked. I had to train myself to tell the difference.
    2
  314.  @mathisnotforthefaintofheart  Oh, you're absolutely right about that. No question. Different chassis, powertrains, levels of sophistication, everything.
    2
  315. Lazy comment, bro.
    2
  316.  @sixpooltube  Torsion beam is, functionally, not quite a fully independent rear suspension. Multi-link is, so it delivers a better ride-handling combination especially over crummy pavement and bumpy corners.
    2
  317.  @rahimi4762  Define "better." I test drove a Mazda 6 Signature expecting to like it better than I did. It's a fine car for what it is, but that's a rather cramped Japanese sedan with a quite audible four and a ride/handling balance that doesn't quite nail either one. I then drove an ES 350 and bought it.
    2
  318.  @rahimi4762  I certainly agree the ES is not any sharp-handling performance car. I had an Acura RL, and while it was much more expensive adjusted for inflation, it also drove much better. Alex said it well here; the ES has different goals.
    2
  319.  @38jkv56io-u0lt  The RL in fact was overweight, 400 pounds heavier than the ES. But In all honesty, I think it was the finer car (as it should be at its price). I swapped in stiffer springs that mitigated its wallow, I should note.
    2
  320.  @jgcruisers  Smart. All good moves. Two others worth mentioning: coolant and brake fluid, both to forestall corrosion. Enjoy!
    2
  321. Easier than reading one ignorant bigot.
    2
  322. My goodness, this car is such a superb value that it has 102% of a rear seat! :.D
    2
  323. If those are the criteria, I suspect the driving dynamics part would mean Pilot for the win.
    2
  324.  @godsharry  You're welcome. You'd have to expect that the Durango's reliability and durability would not be close to Toyota standards.
    2
  325. Honda was heading in the cost-cutting direction a lot more than a year ago. I remember 5 years ago reading multiple accounts of how interior quality had been allowed to slide so badly, they were issuing Marysville assembly workers a grease pencil on the line to conceal divots in the interior plastics.
    2
  326.  @keithartworker  I remember the testers and public were so shocked by the gutting of the Civic, Honda did an unprecedented MMC refresh after only 1 year that upgraded both the road behavior and the trim. Not that Honda is alone; Toyota had the gold standard in the '92 Camry and then continuously cheapened it for over 20 years until they were finally shamed into a minor MMC upgrade in '16 and then finally the much-needed modern overhaul in '18.
    2
  327. Looks to me like Mazda focus-grouped US customers, and they said the usual things: "The CX-5 would be perfect if it was just as it is, except with a more butch look and more rear-seat room, but don't charge more for it." So they added those things, cost-cut it to keep the price down, and expected it to replace the CX-5. Except the CX-5 keeps outselling it.
    2
  328.  @CarlOldyOlsen  Agree on all counts, Carl.
    2
  329.  @naveenthemachine  And you've said the ES "is a Camry." You just insist on digging yourself in deeper, don't you?
    2
  330. Hard as it is for us to relate to it, that's most Americans.
    2
  331.  @mholmes9262  I'm not a big audiophile, but I know real audiophiles have an old joke that "No highs, no lows, must be a Bose." They're famous for having a boomboxy sound heavy in the mid-bass.
    2
  332.  @mholmes9262  Yes, selling before the speakers disintegrate is always a good move. :.) I had an old 4DSC Maxima with Bose and honestly, I liked it just fine. But again, I don't really have elevated tastes.
    2
  333. Actually, the reliabiility and low need for service of the hybrid is incredible. Brakes can last 100,000 miles because the regenerative braking reduces speed without using the brake pads. Devices like the A/C don't need a serpentine belt. I don't own the hybrid version, but I absolutely would not be scared off by that aspect of it.
    2
  334. I own an ES 350 Ultra Luxury and test drove an ES 350 Luxury. I agree the car is stiffer than I expected, and transmits more road noise at highway speeds. I think the car is still soft by the standards of new cars; the body rigidity needed for crash tests and for the handling modern buyers expect on the test drive makes a certain level of firmness unavoidable. The Luxury and Ulltra do have trick dual-firmness "swing-valve" shocks to try to minimize the problem; Lexus does know its buyers.
    2
  335. On paper, it's the most efficient strategy and the reason to do a CVT. Tactilely, it sets my molars on edge.
    2
  336. No, it's not like that. Because in case you hadn't heard, you're not supposed to operate a smartphone while aiming a two-ton missile on a public road at 80 mph.
    2
  337. I see this question was nearly a year ago, so I don't know if this helps anymore. But... ES 350: More reliable, better dealer experience, more pleasing engine except for pricey top G80 model, roughly $10,000 cheaper trim for trim. G80: More premium overall in both looks and behavior, more modern, better handling, faster with the optional twin-turbo V6.
    2
  338.  @lesigh1749  Thank you, Le. I agree this is exactly the playbook if we want America to become a tin-pot dictatorship ruled by a series of juntas.
    2
  339. Some people say Yes. Others buy them because they don't know. A great many avoid the problem by leasing instead of buying, but obviously that's a financial bloodbath in the long term.
    2
  340. I think people would be well served, if their income allows, to be mindful how much of the cost of their purchases is finance charges, on credit cards or installment loans. I want stuff for my money.
    2
  341.  @aprtur  I'm thinking it's the only way they could make it bigger without charging much more.
    2
  342. I'm a fan of Savagegeese, not a fan of Hyundai, but I don't feel let down at all. He called out the cheap underbody components, the lack of off-road capability, the lousy sound system, the cost compromises in the seat controls, and the primitive engineering leading to poor gas mileage. In what way do you feel Savagegeese misled you about the underlying quality of the car?
    2
  343. I suspect the only reason the Avalon was kept around in the first place was to give Toyota dealers a move-up option to keep older well-heeled Camry owners in the family. Once Toyota hit it with the ugly stick in '19, it wasn't getting that job done anymore.
    2
  344. Handles better, rides worse, has the same FWD traction problems.
    2
  345. No. Both have vinyl standards and leather on top trims.
    2
  346. It's best at room, ride, quietness, reliability, and engine smoothness. It's terrible at the things you value. They were very clear in their comment that one kind of driver would prefer one car in this class, another would prefer another. You're not everybody.
    2
  347. Four models: Base, Luxury, Ultra Luxury, and F Sport. Premium is an option package on Base.
    2
  348. Try dark dye. Charcoal color.
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  349. There are better values for $36k, and you don't buy entry-luxury anything in order to maximize your value for money. Shop the Nissan aisle if you're shopping by the pound.
    2
  350.  @groosbro1  But you could put less of it down!
    2
  351. I have an ES 350, but it's hard to argue this has better build quality than the LS 500, built in Japan with better components everywhere.
    2
  352.  @cadriver2570  I test drove a Luxury and bought an Ultra. I don't know that I noticed a difference, and the 2022 equipment level of the Luxury has been upgraded to have basically all the NVH features of the UL as either standard or optional: chassis horizontal Performance Dampers, sound reducing glass on the front doors, noice reduction wheels with Helmholtz resonators. I haven't driven the pricier stuff, but it's good to hear that the reports are true that this car's quietness reaches their level.
    2
  353.  @rightlanehog3151  This. They'll probably have less than a full model year in '24, and the '25 won't have it. EDIT: It's now being reported that the big changeover may be delayed until the '26.
    2
  354. I looked hard at the RLX Sport Hybrid and wanted to like it, but I just couldn't get past that fake wood. Just a personal thing with me, but I reeeeally disliked its look, especially for $10k more than the Lexus.
    2
  355.  @barbecuetechtips6024  Yep. And that's where I came out, too.
    2
  356. All car stereo brands are just that: brands. Neither Bose, nor Mark Levinson, nor JBL, nor Fender, nor Rockford Fosgate, nor Lexicon make car stereos, they just sell their brand name to the 2 or 3 companies who do. IIRC, that's usually Samsung or Clarion. Harman Kardon in car stereos is a Samsung brand, as Geese mentioned in another review.
    2
  357. More than one notch below once you enjoy that legendary Kia reliability for a few years.
    2
  358.  @BobbyDigital_TheCode  Yeah, now that you mention it, I don't think it's available on either F Sports or hybrids. And during the shortages, they didn't get around to offering some of the build combinations that remained.
    2
  359.  @BobbyDigital_TheCode  I think it's partly that, and partly because the added weight of the pano roof is undesirable on a lower-horsepower and MPG-oriented hybrids. Now, I have no idea why it's not available on F Sport, just like I have no idea why you can't get leather. Ask the Germans if there are buyers for a car with leather seats AND sport suspension, and I think they'd say Yes.
    2
  360. One needs to define "dampers." The base car has the same shocks and struts as the L or UL. However, the upper models add Yamaha "performance dampers" bolted horizontally to the front and rear of the chassis to absorb chassis resonances for lower noise, vibration and harshness. Opinions vary on how much difference they make.
    2
  361. I agree. Fortunately, they added touch capability to the screen for '22.
    2
  362. My back-of-the-napkin math says you're driving 45,000 miles a year at those numbers, even assuming the city-only figure of 22 miles a gallon and $5 regular gas. Do you drive Uber? If so, considered the 43-mpg ES 300h?
    2
  363.  @twotrackjack2260  You're both right. The 1.5T has a CVT with a belt. The hybrid has what some call an "e-CVT" with variable gear ratios, but it has no belt. You can expect the hybrid to be more immune to transmission trouble.
    2
  364.  @TassieLorenzo  You know, smog isn't a good thing just because evil guvmint has a law against it.
    2
  365. Not quite true anymore. The new seats are still excellent, but to keep up with the German Joneses, they've made them noticeably stiffer.
    2
  366.  @lexusguy9127  This is the second time in 18 hours you've posted the ridiculous assertion that the ES—a car described by Car and Driver as having "ride quality as soft, comfortable and appreciated as before"—has "a small car ride." Okay, we get it. You have an LS, so yours is bigger, so to speak. I feel like I have to duck when I see your posts coming so I don't get hit in the head by something you're swinging.
    2
  367.  @lexusguy9127  Edmunds: "(ES has) Excellent ride quality." Dan Neil, Wall Street Journal: '(ES's) ride quality is super-bueno deluxe." It's not all about you and your LS, Guy. Cut the crap.
    2
  368.  @lexusguy9127  You make an inaccurate statement, then when you're corrected, you double down as if the person doing so is the problem. Sorry, not buying.
    2
  369. Pity. You missed a pretty good video.
    2
  370. Nope. As an ES 350 owner, I can assure you with 100% confidence that it is specified for, and runs perfectly on, regular fuel. In the States, at least.
    2
  371.  @jsfbay1  They didn't forget how to do it, it's a target marketing decision. They figure the people who prioritize rear seat room will buy an SUV anyway, and the numbers say they're right.
    2
  372. C/D just tested this truck head-to-head against the Colorado and said that to their own surprise, the Tacoma curb-stomped the Chevy. Sounds like this is just your bias talking.
    2
  373.  @yo2trader539  You've repeated this wishful-thinking falsehood in at least 2 other threads. Again: Although built in Japan, this car was co-engineered by Toyota, Guangdong and BYD for a Chinese audience. The fact that its manufacturing was removed from America, and that unlike previous ES's it was not announced in America but only in Shanghai, is not a coincidence.
    2
  374. Thank you for this post. Your first two sentences in particular nail it.
    2
  375. Yes.
    2
  376. What a stale, mailed-in take.
    2
  377. You now can get the F Sport with the looks alone or with the handling suspension. Opinons are sharply dividied on whether the suspension's better handling is worth the ride penalty, since it's not a sports car anyway and even the variable suspension's softest setting rides worse than the base car. Try before you buy.
    2
  378. Yes, it's extremely easy. You know those two "goat horn" buttons atop the gauge cluster hood? The left one is a pushbutton to shut off traction control. The right one lets you switch fron Normal to Eco transmission mode in one motion, which dulls throttle response and therefore also helps in winter.
    2
  379.  @mackjsm7105  Great car. Was a finalist for me personally. Compliments on your good taste. That said, if you routinely carried 4 people and a load of stuff for long distances, the Accord would meet that need better for less. Just because it's not for you and me doesn't mean it's completely devoid of virtues.
    2
  380.  @kwhite145  You'd be amazed how many people say this without a speck of humor intended. They've ground down my patience. Sorry about that.
    2
  381. Fun Fact: A full-size spare will fit into the spare tire area of the new ES's trunk. But if I were you, I'd keep that one — it's comfy, it's paid for, and you know where it's been.
    2
  382. Something inspired, I'm sure. Don't tempt fate by asking.
    2
  383.  @brianb5723  What's he gonna do? It's not like he's not telling the truth. As Mark explained, these are the compromises they were forced into based on what they could afford to build. Now, whether you choose to buy those compromises is another matter.
    2
  384. The two cars really aren't very similar. The ES is about room and luxury, and the TLX is more of a 3 Series performance competitor. Pick on the basis of what you want your car to do.
    2
  385. I hate this car, but I don' think Lexus has lost touch with what the people want. The question is, which people. This car is apparently a joint venture between Chinese BYD, Guongdong and Toyota, announced for the first time only in China and designed inside & out to resemble many of China's most popular cars. The harsh truth is that the American market just isn't as important on the world stage anymore.
    2
  386. Uh... maybe because you have a hangup about your uncle being gay? And, yeah, it's made in America and still is reliable. Exactly the nice workmanship you expect, in fact.
    2
  387. A lot of people, including the Savagegeese duo, have voiced the opinion that recent Lexus products have been mailing it in, offering too little luxury and too little differentiation from their Toyota siblings to justify the price difference. Glad to hear this one has escaped that fate.
    2
  388. He did address the annoying track pad indirectly, by carefully noting that the '22 has moved the screen closer to the driver and adding a touch membrane. You now no longer have to use the annoying track pad, ever.
    2
  389. Phoned-in comment.
    2
  390. They fixed that somewhat during 2020. Set the fader 2 clicks to the rear and the Surround Sound to Off, and it's just fine now. Try it in the showroom.
    2
  391. You'd definitely prefer the 3.5 liter V6.
    2
  392. No. (Actually, Kentucky.) Statistically the quality has held up just fine. Subjectively the fit, finish, paint and materials are Lexus-level good. They build it on its own assembly line with workers handpicked and trained to Japanese standards. But if it's an issue, know that ES production is returning to Japan.
    2
  393. Lost it in the infotainment update for '23. I'm with you -- I'm glad to have it.
    2
  394.  @paulholterhaus7084  Felt pretty decent to me. Are you sure it would've been the worst chair you've sat upon in only 70 years? I suspect your butt may be a bit recalibrated.
    2
  395. Yes to the "customer swap" comment, except the original is Guangdong and the new target audience is Chinese. But you're absolutely right: This is not an ES as we know it. After 35 years, the beloved ES has been discontinued. There aren't enough US executive sedan customers left anymore to interest Toyota. The bone tossed to us is this rebadge of a Chinese-market Tesla knockoff.
    2
  396.  @AndyE30  I get the feeling that Toyota poured blood into the previous Tundra generations only to find that American pickup buyers only cared about the badge their daddy bought, and said "Screw it, we'll just make it bulletproof and give it just enough engineering effort to retain the few people who want a Toyota truck."
    2
  397. You'll never find a Luxury or Ultra that isn't loaded with options. So the practical answer is, low $50s.
    2
  398. Good on you for this non-trolling, truly helpful post.
    2
  399. ES 350 takes regular. Which Lexus do you have?
    2
  400.  @danielboyd9380  Sharp car! I'm guessing they calibrated the engine for premium fuel in that car because it's a model with more performance intentions.
    2
  401.  @danielboyd9380  Thank you, Daniel. To be clear, I have no connection to Savagegeese and am just an appreciative viewer and Lexus owner, just like you. Enjoy your car!
    2
  402. They're partly to make those controls convenient to reach, but mostly they're an affectation to look sporty and to provide family resemblance to Lexus's costlier LS and LC models.
    2
  403. Most buyers agree with you, but the SUVs aren't the same price. Compared feature for feature, they're thousands more. And SUVs can't match a well designed car for ride and handling, if that's your priority.
    2
  404. Because it isn't the unreliable CVT with belts inside like the Jatco trash found in Nissans. It's called a "CVT" because it shifts without fixed gear rations, but internally it has nothing in common with those transmissions and, while not pleasing to listen to, is extremely reliable.
    2
  405. The one thing that made me feel better about having to swallow the head-up display is that other people value it, so it'll probably improve the resale value. But, yes.
    2
  406.  @yumpinyiminy963  Funny you should mention those markers. I find I watch those too, except I always end up watching them on the dash (brighter, higher contrast) instead of on the head-up display anyway. I guess if I were using MY head, I'd set something else on the dash so I wasn't duplicating the information, but bless Lexus for giving us that level of flexibility.
    2
  407. You said it: Honda makes a midsize car, and it's now the Civic. (Even the EPA classifies it as one.) What I miss is Honda making a small hatchback that's not an SUV.
    2
  408.  @ravd883  On Christmas, is there such a thing as too much wine? :.)
    2
  409. They softened it up a bit in '16 or '17 because of the complaints. In '19 both the Avalon and ES went to an entirely new architecture and became essentially a whole different car from before, except for the engines.
    2
  410.  @mob4ever  I know what you mean, but the cold truth is that no car in this class provides both a class-leading experience and Lexus reliability, so you have to choose what you'll surrender. And if you're ponying up for this class, you don't want to surrender a first-rate experience, so I get it.
    2
  411. You can say this about lots of car features. Why do Hondas still need timing belts? Why are VW/Audi thermostat/water pumps disposable? All engineering is a compromise.
    2
  412. I'd consider a used GS if you can stomach the damn trackpad.
    2
  413.  @thtupid  I completely agree about the 250 AWD. It's a travesty.
    2
  414. Not really. Its small back seat makes it more of a driver-centric 2+2 car.
    2
  415. I think you may have missed the point. No one is cross-shopping this with Lexus or BMW, but lots of people who'd step up if they could afford to are cross-shopping it against stripped-down oxcarts like HR-V, Crosstrek and CorollaCross and finding this comes a lot closer.
    2
  416. Big difference. Entirely different chassis. Different dimensions, longer, lower and wider, compromising rear seat comfort. Better handling. Slightly to considerably firmer ride, depending on the trim level. And of course, dramatically overhauled interior.
    2
  417. Your eyes are deceiving you. Two. They're not next to each other; left is nearer the driver, right is nearer the dash.
    2
  418. Cost savings from Camry/Avalon parts sharing. It lets them make the visible parts and equipment level nicer at the same price point.
    2
  419. Should be able to; unlike some hybrid sedans of yore, the battery doesn't intrude at all on trunk space because they located it under the back seat.
    2
  420. I honestly don't think that's the problem; it actually falls far short of the rear seat room of the G90 or S Class. The bigger problem seems to be that Toyota couldn't decide what they wanted it to be, a stately S Class or a sporty Panamera, and the indecision resulted in a car that's neither.
    2
  421. Lexus has been rocking the copper color in all its recent introductions. it's almost the only Lexus feature of this car.
    2
  422. Subjectivity is... who knew?... subjective. They're comparing cars in the same class that have different strengths and weaknesses. One is reliable. Another, the most luxury for the bucks. Another, the most sophisticated drive. Of COURSE the comparison becomes subjective. Stop trying to win the Internet.
    2
  423. Thanks for a sincerely informative post and not the just usual opinion rubbish.
    2
  424. I think you like yourself an awful lot.
    2
  425. You botched the insulting comment with your inability to spell.
    2
  426.  @trstnhn  "How many G90 did Genesis sell in November 2023? Genesis sold 68 G90 (in the entire U.S.) in November 2023." No, I am not living under a rock. You can zip the condescending Internet insults now.
    2
  427. "It won't sell in a market already where sedans struggle." This is the point. Lexus is not stupid. Sedans no longer sell in big numbers in America. They're going where the customers are: China. This car was co-developed with Guangdong and BYD, announced only in Shanghail, no longer built in America, and designed inside and out for Chinese tastes. This is not an ES as we know it. The ES is discontinued.
    2
  428.  @mervinprone  Not quite. The GS was meant to compete with the Germans, as an RWD-based sedan with handling chops and capable engines. This has none of that. The only feature this will have in common with the GS is a price higher than people will see a reason to pay.
    2
  429.  @ClownWorldHONKHONK-yj5sn  I personally think Motor Trend is much worse than C/D.
    2
  430.  @RbNetEngr  I agree 100%. Your comment ends where the problem starts: American corporations in ALL industries are armtwisted by stock market institutional investors to go for short-term profits. In Japan, the government/industry partnership recognizes the long term.
    2
  431.  @ducktails1695  In theory, you can replace an infinite number of parts. But it's pretty impractical to replace seized engines or transmissions or fried electricals on old cars.
    2
  432.  @ducktails1695  And with many Hyundai/Kias, Subarus and some Corvettes, your engine will seize due to metal shavings from sloppy manufacturing no matter how meticulously you maintain them. I don't need your condescension, pal.
    2
  433. This temp readouts comment hits me as weird. They're plain white on black and 3/4" high, I've never had a problem reading them -- and how often do you reset the temperature? As for the radio knob, other reviewers have singled it out specifically for praise, including Edmunds saying approvingly that it reminded them of "an old-school stereo receiver." Having a bad day?
    2
  434. I seriously considered a used GS before I bought my new ES. Mechanically it's a clearly superior car, but the exterior styling and the touchpad infotainment were deal breakers for me at the price.
    2
  435. Opinion question. Both are good with different strengths and weaknesses. My best suggestion is to watch Savagegeese's separate 2019 reviews of each, which are more comprehensive than this one.
    2
  436. I can confirm that a full-sized spare fits, because I've fitted one. Replace the awful factory scissors jack with a compact hydraulic bullet jack while you're at it. Avoid just one nightmare tire change with the scissors jack, and it'll be the best $40 you ever invested. Ask me how I know.
    2
  437.  @Buc_Stops_Here  Sort of. The ES competes with the 3 Series in price, but it's actually roomier than the Lexus GS. Where the ES falls short is in handling and mechanical sophistication because of its humble FWD Camry/Avalon roots, and that's where the GS stepped up more favorably against its price competitor the 5 Series.
    2
  438. CX-50 is a likable car, but watch out for two key differences from the CX-5. 1) It's got a more primitive, cheaper non-independent rear suspension that rides and corners worse over bumps. 2) It's not made in Japan, but in a new Alabama factory that's generating both negative word-of-mouth and far worse Consumer Reports defect survey results than the CX-5.
    2
  439.  @p_enta5012  Agree 100?% on the AWD, but it definitely is not underpowered. Remember this is an A6-sized car for A4 money, and it still reaches 60 in the low 6's despite the wheelspin. On the highway it hauls balls.
    2
  440.  @user-cx2bk6pm2f  You're really really good at attempted sarcasm, babe. Don't let anyone else tell you differently. In fact, continue not listening to anyone else at all. It's working so well for you so far.
    2
  441.  @user-cx2bk6pm2f  You can direct junior-high slights at me to your heart's content, so long as you stop insulting our host for providing us useful information at no cost.
    2
  442. That might not be so true anymore.
    2
  443. Avalons are outstanding used car buys. They're not only well built out of sturdy stuff, but they're the exact opposite of a ricer -- most of their first owners were older, not enthusiasts, not poor, and babied them. All of this historically makes them great bets.
    2
  444. I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but there are no 6-cylinder versions of this truck. Perhaps you're thinking of the larger, costlier Toyota Tundra.
    2
  445. lazy comment
    2
  446. I'm not Savagegeese, but I do have the Levinson. Power: Some say a strong aftermarket system holds together better at extremely high volumes. But at any semi-reasonable loudness, the clarity, L/R staging and the frequency response from treble through bass are all excellent.
    2
  447.  @gold3nhorus  Yes. After this exchange, I went back and tried some rock music at a volume loud enough to hurt your ears and offend the neighbors. I am happy to report it can retain clarity while playing louder than I can listen at my age.
    2
  448. Pretty brainless pair of posts. I see why you use an assumed name.
    2
  449. Mark and Jack, I'm struck that the hybrid version of this car is virtually identical on paper to the much costlier Lexus ES 300h, which I know you've driven. Now that they've pushed this car in the cushy direction and cut the power, it seems to beg for comparison. You mentioned its hybrid drivetrain is less annoying than the Lexus'. Otherwise, how does it compare?
    2
  450.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, you again? You've been trolling every Lexus thread from multiple testers for the last 6 months. Are we gonna get your "Genesis is God's gift" speech again? Your false reliability statistics, too? Isn't it almost time for high school graduation?
    2
  451. Many people disagree with you, including multiple reviewers and this poster.
    2
  452. Except for the presence of multiple criticisms, yes.
    2
  453. How many Alfa fanboi posts in a row is enough for you, Guili?
    2
  454. Except this isn't a review of the pathetic MX-30. Do you post TrailBlazer criticisms in Corvette reviews?
    2
  455. I felt all along when the Crown sedan came out that 1) Toyota had fundamentally misread the problem with the final Avalon; it didn't fail because it was a sedan, it failed because it was ugly. (The tasteful previous one sold just fine.) 2) The Crown sedan combined all the disadvantages of both SUV and sedan, and would fail. 3) An SUV version of the Crown would succeed. Check, check and check.
    2
  456.  @cyanprince00  I freaking hate the all-screens interiors and will do my utmost to never, ever own one. Period.
    2
  457. No flutter I've ever seen.
    2
  458. This is just silly. 8 seconds to 60 is not "dangerously slow." And if you paid 37k (unless you mean Canadian, not US), you'd get the Turbo, which grabs 60 in under 6 seconds flat.
    2
  459. For reliability purposes, note that it's not an actual CVT (like the Nissan disasters). It just shifts like one, unfortunately.
    2
  460. He's recommended Hondas.
    2
  461. You can get the rub strip for the middle of the doors on the ES as a dealer-installed option.
    2
  462. It cuts the power, and yet the power still frequently overwhelms it, particularly if you stomp the throttle from a standstill while turning. More traction-oriented tires than Lexus provides help some, and in the dry, shutting off the traction control (easy to do; it's the left "goat horn" on top of the gauge cluster) helps some too.
    2
  463.  @thelastninja4825  ES has a similar-sized interior, but it's a much more manageable-sized car on the outside.
    2
  464. It's less claustrophic inside, it has more cargo area, and it's a better value.
    2
  465.  @christofonobrown3659  I've heard the same thing, that the Aisin automatic seems to have a pretty solid track record.
    2
  466. The NuLuxe seats actually feel very good, although obviously semi-aniline leather is going to win. It's the leather smell that NuLuxe can't duplicate. It's part of the luxury experience that you miss once you're used to having it.
    2
  467. This may sound funny, but I give you credit for saying "a little less likely" instead of the usual Internet liquid courage of "hard pass" or "no way." If every poster ruled out every car that they boasted in a post was beneath them, they'd all be taking bicycles to work.
    2
  468.  @naveenthemachine  By what standard do you claim that the Acura's "most direct competitor" is a car that doesn't even have the same number of rows?
    2
  469. I just lease.
    2
  470. For folks like you, they have their two best-selling models: the NX and RX.
    2
  471. Did you get it, and how do you like it?
    2
  472. No, they're not following the Lexus playbook, in multiple ways. Lexus started with a dedicated free-standing, all-new dealer network where anyone who wanted in had to agree to unprecedented standards of customer service. The cars themselves were built with astounding quality, and when the first LS's got a defective third brake light, they recalled every single car and gave a loaner -- unheard of at the time. And right up front, they created the best parts network in auto history, unlike Genesis that sometimes leaves you waiting a month for a part. No similarity.
    2
  473. Sorry, but I don't think so since they eliminated the standard CD player for '23 by popular demand. Only oldsters like me still wanted it.
    2
  474.  @amanasd26  Good point. I half agree. On the one hand, yes, the Toyota Tax has gotten completely out of hand, to the point where I've been advising family and friends to shop other brands for that reason alone. On the other, I think some new Toyotas (especially the trucks) are much riskier than others. But this is thoroughly proven drivetrain technology—Car Care Nut described it as a "parts bin car" specifically to say he was comfortable with its reliability. So, those who overpay for a Crown can at least be confident they're getting the solidity they paid for.
    2
  475. Why did you bother with those four keystrokes?
    2
  476. The guys are Mark and Jack, and they tag-team their videos. They've explained elsewhere that the squeezed economics of trying to make a living at this has made severe demands on their time.
    2
  477.  @PlagueDoctorL  That's objectively untrue. I'm glad you've been lucky, but Nissan products rate poorly in multiple areas of quality, not just the transmission. Look up "variable compression engine problems."
    2
  478. if they meant the Telluride, everybody pops the corks over how that car supposedly feels more expensive than its $50,000, so until you try to turn corners it's not that much of a stretch.
    2
  479. Because making it FWD lets them use Camry chassis and mechanicals to hold the price down. When they built a dedicated midsize RWD/AWD sport sedan in the GS, the price was so high that nobody bought it and it got killed off.
    2
  480. Driven it? I get your comment on paper, but in use it feels a lot different, especially in ES 350 Luxury or Ultra Luxury form. Quieter, smoother, faster, more nicely appointed.
    2
  481. Yes and no. (I feel you; we put a shield on ours.) Pop Sci reports, "Toyota Prius Chief Engineer Satoki Oya told PopSci that a reduced quantity of rare metals in the newest generation catalytic converter might make it less appealing to thieves. Although looks-wise, it wouldn’t appear too different." I'll leave it to you as to how much stock you want to put in this answer.
    2
  482. No. Luxury and Ultra Luxury have it, along with semi-aniline leather upholstery. They're the only ES's that offer either feature.
    2
  483.  @naveenthemachine  Agree, but the value comparison to your Camry an argument against all SUVs, not just this one. SUVs and CUVs in general have a ridiculous price premium compared to sedans for what you get. This is neither news nor an indictment of Lexus, which like Toyota, offers much better value across the showroom in its sedans.
    2
  484.  @naveenthemachine  This is ludicrous for more reasons and features than it's worth it to mention here. But for the record, yes, the top ES models have ambient lighting.
    2
  485.  @c4me540  I'd like to, but my wife says I can't be helped.
    2
  486. That's 7 different boards where you've copy/pasted this exact same comment, all apparently on the same day. Go to the Club Lexus 7th gen ES forum and search for a discussion of this.
    2
  487.  @bigaldallas  Noise, vibration and harshness.
    2
  488. "position behind wheel is quite bad. Brakes are toyota like bad, so is steering feeling." I own an ES 350 with the V6. I completely disagree with the "position behind wheel" comment; it's completely multi-adjustable, including a thigh support adjuster on Ultra Luxury. Brakes and steering are better on the V6 than the hybrid, if that's a priority for you (it was and is for me), and I think both are in fact pretty good.
    2
  489. The Avalon is a fine car, and most of what you say is true. But no, interior quality is not identical.
    2
  490.  @07STi8U  It's objectively not true. Specific examples: The console on the Avalon confronts the driver's right knee with a hard surface; the ES has a pad. The top Avalon has leather; the top ES has semi-aniline leather similar to the top Lexus models.
    2
  491.  @MultiMusicbuff  I wish that for you, Fred. And when you get it, I know you'll appreciate and enjoy it. 2013 and newer Avalons are very nice too, and a little more reachable.
    2
  492. What reliability numbers have you been reading?!
    2
  493. Betcha that front spoiler is there only to reduce underbody drag enough to improve the truck's score on the EPA fuel economy test. It's telling that they made it silly easy to remove. The only thing they didn't do is attach decals with arrows saying "Unscrew these to remove this stupid thing."
    2
  494. If you don't intend to buy and hold your vehicle for a long time, there's very little reason to choose a new RX or NX over their German counterparts.
    2
  495. @ B58 is BMW's very highly regarded, and increasingly reliable, inline 6-cylinder engine for SUVs and high-performance sedans.
    2
  496. @ Interesting about the A/C units. Consumer Reports surveys show that in models like Civic, it's the one weak link in a mostly reliable car.
    2
  497.  @beautyisontheinside  The most comprehensive and objective long-term reliability data available to the public, the Consumer Reports survey of 200,000 readers in real-world use, does not support your post. German stuff stiil spits up its guts after 7 years.
    2
  498. Has the ride and comfort, but not the handling.
    2
  499. Your implied claim that they fixed this problem 10 years ago is not true. You're doing a disservice to anyone reading this who reads it and is falsely reassured about the brand's newer products.
    2
  500. Never saw the inside of the LS 430, LS 500 or LC 500, huh? Savagegeese described the new LC's interior as "the finest under $200,000."
    2
  501.  @davidxan  Best of luck to you, sir.
    2
  502. Discontinued, alas.
    2
  503. Never worked on a Mercedes, huh?
    2
  504. You're missing something here. The ES and Avalon share a platform. The Camry is a slightly smaller version of it. The now-extinct GS is an entirely different platform with RWD or AWD that shares virtually nothing with any of the others except the engine.
    2
  505. Can "Seek Track" be used to change tracks on a connected USB drive or phone?
    2
  506. Not Kenny, but am a UL owner. It does ride quieter, but I don't know that the doors slam any differently. On all ES's, however, the fronts make a more solid sound than the rears do.
    2
  507. If you want to avoid tickets, cruise control is your friend.
    2
  508.  @capitalexotics  Mostly still very reliable. The transmission shifting roughness started with the new gen in 2019 and seems to have been mostly sorted by '21, but it's not life-threatening to either you or the transmission regardless. Some 2020's had a batch of bad fuel pumps that, at worst, would strand you once and then get replaced free under a TSB or a recall. Very solid otherwise.
    2
  509.  @capitalexotics  Both are good, reliable cars. They're different. The V6 is obviously quicker, and it's very smooth and quiet under throttle. The hybrid gets amazing gas mileage and is smooth and silent around town although harsher when you stomp it. If you can't find an ES hybrid to test drive, try out a Camry Hybrid and know the noise level will be lower in the ES but the powertrain's behavior will be the same.
    2
  510.  @storyofmylife7080  They are both built in Lexington, Kentucky, but on separate assembly lines using different procedures (more rigorous for Lexus) by differently trained separate workforces.
    2
  511.  @Cakewalk.  You're entitled to your opinion, although you didn't answer my comment.
    2
  512.  @CadexLaw  You many not believe in old wives' tales, but you do trust surveys with a sample size of 2: your current BMW and your previous BMW. I prefer a sample size of 200,000, like the 2023 Consumer Reports Auto Issue. Here's their brand new listing of predicted reliability for all listed vehicles by both makers: BMW 230i: Average BMW 2 Gran Coupe: Average BMW 330i: Better than average BMW i4: Average BMW X1: Average BMW X3: Average BMW 530i: Average BMW X5: Average BMW 7 Series: Average BMW Z4: Average BMW X5: Average BMW X7: Average Lexus IS300: Better than average Lexus UX250h: Better than average Lexus ES: Better than average Lexus RX: Better than average Lexus NX350: Better than average Lexus NX350h: Much better than average Lexus GX460: Much better than average Lexus LS500: Average Lexus LX: Average
    2
  513. Be advised that brands in car stereo don't mean much. They're just badge engineering with only 2 or 3 suppliers making the hardware for nearly all car stereos. For most Toyota products including Levinson, that supplier is Samsung's Harman Kardon division.
    2
  514. Yes. He had a very long commute to the shoots, he got tired of it and he quit.
    2
  515.  @PianoBlackTrimRep.  Wow, what a story. That's a whole philosophy of life!
    2
  516.  @naveenthemachine  As I said above, this is fanboi silliness. Lexus still makes money. It has vastly higher sales than Genesis, and makes high margins by selling tech mass-produced for Highlander and Camry at much higher profit margins per unit. Yes, Lexus's sedans aren't selling well, but the RX and NX alone will keep the lights on just fine. Infiniti was NEVER as healthy as Lexus still is now.
    2
  517. Have it in some foreign markets. Left it out in the States. Probably price and the fear it'd give people even one less reason to upgrade to the slow-selling LS.
    2
  518.  @dsewardj  The F Sport has its strengths, and many do like its aesthetics better. But to say there's no difference in ride quality or noise is to say there's no advantage to noise-suppression measures and no ride penalty for stiffer suspension.
    2
  519. In many ways, it didn't used to mean what it used to. We deify these guys, but in the '60s they did tailfins because GM did, and in the '90s they turned the S Class into a bloated overpriced yacht with crappy Mitsubishi electronic brakes because they were justifiably unconfident that they could compete head-to-head with the Lexus LS 400. Mercedes has made many fine cars. They have also made many of the other kind.
    2
  520. No, because the Camry was designed in America for Americans, and the Camry therefore is proving to be still popular in America. This was co-designed by Chinese for Chinese, and they'll like it better than we do.
    2
  521. Good call, IMO. That is their one legitimate use.
    2
  522. I suggest you be quick about it; the 2024 may be a shortened model year, and after that the V6 will be gone from the ES forever. Also, spend the extra for the Mark Levinson.
    2
  523. Head up display is also available on non-F Sport trims.
    2
  524. it's an 8-speed from Aisin, an independent supplier partly owned by Toyota. Some praise it for smooth shifts, some criticize it for rough downshifts at low speeds. It's the same transmission used by some other non-Toyota models like the BMW X1.
    2
  525. The good news is that it'll be a killer used car buy for years to come, partly for one reason it's always been: Its old and conservative first owners never beat on it.
    2
  526. Agree. Not just for the just-in-case (which is real), but because run-flat tires ride like crap.
    2
  527.  @naveenthemachine  This is ludicrous, just like all the dozens of Genesis fanboi posts you've been pecking out as a Camry owner sitting in mom's basement for over a year now. Don't you ever start to get embarrassed, Naveen?
    2
  528. Except you can't get the V6 coupled with AWD.
    2
  529. ?
    2
  530. Tell us, do you often seek out comparisons to the cars you've driven by checking out other cars that are half the price? So, you would have been "impressed" if the car had solidly defeated the $100,000 LS while costing $45,000. My, what a fine man with high standards you are.
    2
  531.  @amirkazemi2517  Because I just read it. But, "triggered"? Nice try. As for the C Class, "drives much better" is subjective. It corners a lot better, it doesn't ride as well, and the engine makes noises like the 4-banger it is. "Better" is in the eye of the beholder. C Class shoppers who cared about agile handling would obviously be better off checking out the smaller, RWD/AWD Lexus IS than the ES, yes.
    2
  532. @ I'm interested in El Gato's answer, just as you are. But I will say this: When the Crown sedan came out, I predicted it would fail, but that if they imported the Signia, it would succeed. Reason: The Crown sedan offers the compromised handling of an SUV, without the offsetting SUV advantages of rear seat room and cargo versatility; pointlessly, it didn't even have a hatch. And that's even aside from the fact that it'd be unpopular because it looked frumpy. The Signia fixes all of that.
    2
  533. The F Sport has the exact same hybrid and V6 powertrain choices as all other ES's. The exact same fuel recommendations apply: regular for both works just fine.
    2
  534.  @thebig12conference73  It depends on what you want. Honestly, if you want sporty handling no ES will give it to you, including the F Sport Handling. This video goes into more detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt1GhUNJctQ
    2
  535.  @thebig12conference73  I agree with most of your comments, except there's no way in hell you'll find any new, decently equipped Mercedes E Class for anything resembling $45k. Given your stated priorities of luxury and affordability on long commutes, the other car I'd check out is the base-model Genesis G80, although it too requires premium gas. I agree with you about the hybrid's lack of power, which is why I chose the V6 without even driving the hybrid. My personal take on trim levels is that luxury is the whole reason to get ES instead of Camry, so one might as well go all-in for the maximum soundproofing and the nice aromatic leather of the Luxury or Ultra Luxury. But I understand that they're a lot extra, and the Premium package with wood and Mark Levinson is a nice choice for less. Happy hunting!
    2
  536. They kept making what people bought and stopped making what people didn't. The ES was outselling the GS something like 20 to 1. We made the choice for them.
    2
  537.  @alpappalardi7044  You did very well for yourself. The GS is definitely a better, more premium car than the ES in almost every way. If I could have gotten one without that damn trackpad, I'd have certainly bought one.
    2
  538. Same drivetrain as the ES 300h has had since 2019. He did do a video on it that year. Short version: He liked it a lot and thought it might better suit the mission of the car.
    2
  539.  @nostradamus7648  The ES 350 is the V6. The hybrid is called the ES 300h.
    2
  540. Yes. This is the real problem with this generation of LS: For its size and weight, it's functionally too small. They compromised its luxury values to give it swoopy looks, yet it doesn't deliver on performance either. Fatally, it's neither fish nor fowl.
    2
  541. Rear seat controls on ES and even Camry are offered in several countries, but in the States we don't even get rear seat heaters. I think there a couple of reasons for this: more people in those countries have drivers rather than driving themselves, and they're holding down the price in the US to past levels (while protecting the costlier LS from cannibalization) by removing features.
    2
  542. Because not enough people bought it. Best way to keep your car from being stolen: Order it with a manual. Even thieves don't know how to drive one anymore.
    2
  543. No.
    2
  544. N you didn't take it when it was offered, as the Lexus GS. It was outsold by the ES, 20 to 1, when Lexus mercy-killed it. Turns out Americans didn't want to pay extra for technology without a German badge.
    2
  545.  @phillyspitta8147  Yeah, but those GS's were really pricey too.
    2
  546.  @anthonyng3014  The CX-30 makes more sense if you clear your head of the idea that it's meant as an off-road vehicle; it's not. Think of it as a Mazda3 hatchback that fixes that car's problems with claustrophic visibility and lack of cargo space, and throws in AWD as standard. I'd be very interested to see what a mild set of lowering springs would do.
    2
  547. You haven't watched his other videos in which he calls out Toyota and Lexus models to avoid, yet you come on here and gratuitously insult him in public -- behind a gutless veil of Internet anonymity, of course. Giving you all the respect you deserve, up yours.
    2
  548. Nobody "needs" any luxury car. The statement misses the point.
    2
  549.  @robertpesche  Didn't say that about the LC, or the V8 IS.
    2
  550.  @robertpesche  Thanks. Also, gotta distinguish between Mark and Jack. Jack is a German car / sporty car guy all the way. See their debate in the recent Lexus ES test.
    2
  551. Most reviewers say the Avalon was a better value, although the ES is ultimately a better car.
    2
  552. Sorry, no. You can't get AWD with the V6 ES 350, either. But you can have an AWD hybrid in an RX SUV.
    2
  553. You can get AWD now, but not with a V6. And in the next gen, you'll be able to get AWD with a more powerful hybrid/turbo setup, but no V6 under any circumstances.
    2
  554. I think you'd be very impressed with the driving demeanor of the new one. The 2019 marked the first all-new platform for this car since basically '92, and it's a much more modern car with a stiffer chassis that allows better steering and handling without degrading the ride quality.
    2
  555.  @baronvonjo1929  With all due respect, I don't think you've experienced minivans as a customer who needs the space or jockeys more than 1 or 2 kids. Yes, minivans come in only one size: larger and more usable inside for their exterior size than any SUV ever. That's the point. The combination of the lower floor, the sliding door, and the absence of the pointless vanity suspension jack-up make them the tool of choice for the family hauling mission.
    2
  556.  @cadriver2570  I think just about everybody agrees that the LS 500 is a costly misfire. The ES F Sport, on the other hand, is a trim variant that's very cheap for Lexus to add to the lineup, and gives them something to keep a few of the old GS customers in the fold.
    2
  557. You have so little regard for Infiniti, you didn't even spell their name right. Which is understandable, since they've been all but abandoned by their own parent company and are probably on the brink of extinction.
    2
  558.  @Astylishjew  Yes. The word on the boards is to turn Surround off and move the fader 2 steps to the rear. Also, the 2019 with base audio had a known problem with nearly nothing coming out of the rear speakers. It's since been fixed.
    2
  559.  @luptonpittman6520  Fair point. I hear they deleted a couple of back speakers with this generation, probably as a cheapout move. "Fixed" admittedly is relative.
    2
  560. The Crown is not selling. My personal guess is that they'll replace the LS with something similar to the Crown Signia—in other words, a crossover. That's what the people want now.
    2
  561. What's the point of a comment like this? Really. Just to be contrarian? The comment doesn't make sense, and beyond that, it doesn't make you that cool.
    2
  562. Yeah, that gen was brilliant. I remember test driving it and recommending it successfully to two friends as "the best popular-priced car ever offered to the American public." Both kept them forever.
    2
  563. I do find that a head-scratcher.
    2
  564.  @Frederick0220  Maybe cost. But it does have it on the console lid, the steering wheel and all four doors.
    2
  565. @@japanwatchconnection Lord, your fanboi Mom's basement posts get tiresome. Can't you even be accurate? Is that too much to ask? Even you should know that for all its faults, unlike the ES this car shares nearly nothing with the Camry.
    2
  566.  @MercOne  Name me one sedan at the ES's size and price that packages a V6 with AWD. I'll help: You can't unless it's a crap Chrysler.
    2
  567.  @MercOne  Now you're talkin'. Except for the word "dumb," I agree with pretty much every word you wrote. But there's two ways of looking at it. The "glass half empty" way of saying it is "Other AWD sedans this size cost more because they’re not hobbled by having to use a family car platform." The other way is, "Using an FWD family car platform lets Lexus deliver a sedan with the room and ride comfort of AWD competitors for $10,000 less." And you know what? Even though you think that's "dumb," they still find 30,000 buyers for it, and I very much doubt they're about to apologize for the fact that they outlasted every competitor and now have that market segment to themselves.
    2
  568.  @MercOne  I'm not saying my argument isn't "dumb." I'm saying it's a set of facts. You have the luxury of not caring how many people buy a car. Toyota, however, is in business to make money. My previous car was an RL, dynamically a better car in every way than my ES 350. And you know what? Nobody bought that either. When US consumers turned up their noses at excellent Japanese AWD luxury sport sedans because they didn't have a German badge, that left makers like Toyota with two options: Impress you or stay in business. Call me, and them, any name you like.
    2
  569. Where this concept falls apart is that a family hauler should be suitable for long trips, and this is a slow-charging electric car.
    2
  570. Mark said in another video that he tired of the gig, partly because it required him to do extensive travel.
    2
  571. You're trying to be funny, but you're right, and that's the point of this car. Lexus looked at the numbers and decided there weren't enough of them left to make a profit, so they've discontinued the ES and are replacing it in US showrooms with this Chinese-market offering that will retain a few of those remaining US buyers as a low-cost afterthought.
    2
  572. It's worh mentioning that the '19 got an entirely new platform that feels much different to drive.
    2
  573. Composite of his comments from previous videos is that he'd get a non-F Sport ES300h hybrid with the Premium Package and Mark Levinson. Problem is that the Levinsons are scarce on the ground in those lower-trim models (and even upper ones) right now, apparently because of a chip shortage.
    2
  574. The A6 is beautiful, in my opinion a much finer car than either of these. But one reason I can think of to not choose the A6 is money. Comparably equipped, it's $20,000 more than the ES. Then dial in the higher maintenance costs for its fussy dual-clutch transmission and pricey oil changes, and set aside some coin for post-warranty repairs.
    2
  575. No, finally they abandoned the shrinking US market and made a sedan suitable for people living in China. Which is where most of the buyers are now, so it's arguably a savvy business move. It's just not made for people like me, under 70 but with American tastes.
    2
  576. Your comment is bizarre. Did you even watch this video? It's like a love letter to the car. The following year, he named it the best car in its class in their annual Best Cars video. And as he said, he OWNED a Lexus.
    2
  577. It also has more room, more standard equipment, is quieter, faster, more reliable, more durable, cheaper to maintain, and costs less to buy.
    2
  578.  @dragospahontu  And costlier, and nobody bought it.
    2
  579. You'll have one, just not with a V6.
    2
  580. Yes. This, absolutely. I got an ES and it's a good car, but if I'd been able to get that styling and a V6/AWD powertrain, I'd have stretched to afford it.
    2
  581. Most reviewers say the AVS (Adaptive Variable Suspension) available only the F Sport version is stiffer than the regular suspension. Even at its softest setting. it pounds more stiffly and less comfortably over bumps. Some people feel the handling improvement is worth the ride sacrifice, while others (me among them) feel it detracts from the comfort-first mission of the car.
    2
  582. For you, there's the Venue, which will probably grow right into this size.
    2
  583. Well, they've already had a black-on-black interior option with black monochrome wood for the ES for several years, so you may end up disappointed.
    2
  584.  @fzr1000981  I've owned both. Both, IMO, are terrific engines. But I'll give Lexus's engine the nod over Acura's for not needing either premium fuel or timing belts.
    2
  585. The LS may be fractionally quieter, but the ES is one of the quietest, and certainly the quietest at its price.
    2
  586. This is more a comment on the decline of Honda, and the fact that the ratings you're referencing were measuring up-front defects rather than long-term durability.
    2
  587. I see you're the same troll who informatively posted "Lexus fanbois" below as an entire comment. Over 30,000 ES's were sold last year in America -- more than the 5 Series or E Class -- so, despite your obvious wisdom, not everyone who shopped for an actual car instead of masturbating at a keyboard in Mom's basement agreed with your astute assessment.
    2
  588. As it should be, since it's over $10,000 more expensive when comparably equipped with leather and V6.
    2
  589.  @combinedeffects4799  You might want to watch Savagegeese's NX review before you do that.
    2
  590. It's a pretty good piece of engineering work, much more broadly useful than the previous-gen AWD Prius, and it barely sacrifices either MPG or price.
    2
  591. If you thought this sounded like boredom, watch them 3 months later as they bravely struggle to retain consciousness in a VW Taos.
    2
  592. The upper trim levels (except the F Sport, which has alumimum strips) DO have real wood trim on the dash, doors, steering wheel and console USB/phone door. In some color schemes, it's flat black and easy to miss in pictures.
    2
  593. Sound system brand and wattage numbers are both meaningless in a car audio system. The number is bogus, and the brand is just that, a brand—nearly all car stereos are made by either Samsung or Clarion (this one's upmarket optional stereo is "Mark Levinson," which means it's from Samsung's Harman-Kardon division). The speakers are 17 drivers combined into 10 enclosures (10/10 on the base "Pioneer" system). It sounds good except for a lack of sound from the rear; if you crave surround, you won't find it here.
    2
  594. This car wasn't meant to replace the 2015 IS 350 F Sport. They have the 2023 IS 350 F Sport for that. You already have the right car.
    2
  595. Sorry to hear the Highlander is a true liability. Here I was hoping it would be an investment.
    2
  596. They're not stupid. They just know where their bread is buttered. But it's not our obligation to believe them.
    2
  597. The front half opens upward and slides back on top of the rear half.
    2
  598. The RL's can get the tinworm in the usual Honda location at the back of the rear wheelwell, which isn't really critical structurally. The hood, front fenders and trunklid are all aluminum, so they're no worry at all. You can still find clean examples in the Midwest. Bizarrely, the real rot problem is the glovebox door, which melted in the sun from lack of UV inhibitor, and the center armrest upholstery, which is easily replaced.
    2
  599. Probably happened because the car is the oldest design in its class, forcing them to match newer competitors by adding those rear-seat features as an afterthought.
    2
  600.  @augustraaymakers2432  Yep, that's an ES all right. :.)
    2
  601. Welcome to the brotherhood. I have a '22 Ultra that I bought at MSRP. As a former GTI owner, I miss the steering and handling. I don't miss the 56 defects (when I lost count) and the hideous customer service experience.
    2
  602.  @2004cyrus  Neither of you is any luxury car's target audience, then.
    2
  603. But really good vanilla is really good, and pistachio gets less tempting at a 60% markup.
    2
  604. Doesn't mean the company is in trouble. Buick is virtually extinct in its birthplace of America but is thriving with multiple, appealing models in China. They've made a choice. Corporately, Honda was never an enterprise anywhere near the scale of Toyota.
    2
  605. If you follow his advice to get a Hyundai/Kia product used at 5-10 years of age, be aware that the 10 year-100,000-mile warranty is only for the first owner. Once sold, the warranty for the second owner gets shorter. If you're going this route, do your homework and see if the car is still covered.
    2
  606. Yes.
    2
  607. You'll fit fine into any of them (the IS having the must snug interior). The IS is small, RWD or AWD, and competes (poorly) with driver's cars like the BMW 3 or Audi A4. The ES is the same price, much larger, but a soft FWD sedan made to ride rather than handle. The ES is nearly twice the price, slightly larger than the rather large ES but no roomier inside, but is a higher class of car in a way you can clearly see in its extremely luxurious interior furnishings and feel in its AWD and massive weight; it's meant to compete with the likes of the Mercedes S Class and Audi A8, but most feel it falls short in both room and performance.
    2
  608. They introduced a touch screen for '22 and ditched the touchpad entirely for '23.
    2
  609. I'm guessing that was a clip from Mercedes' publicity video. You'll notice that was one of several that used typography as wallpaper over the entire screen to brag about a feature.
    2
  610. This group, anyway. Drive a Buick and that'll fix it for ya.
    2
  611. Is he as unfunny as his son?
    2
  612. I think it had more to do with wanting to keep the base price down near the level of the 2018, near the $40k mark. There's stlll a lot of new mechanical sophistication here the '18 lacked that costs money to provide.
    2
  613. As the guys said: If they didn't change something, the car was a dead letter. They couldn't sacrifice safety, and they couldn't sacrifice aerodynamics too much or the car couldn't achieve its brand mission (although this gen is, in fact, worse aerodynamically than its less sleek-looking predecessor). Yet they had to make it look much more appealing and exciting, which added up to longer/lower/wider/sleeker. That takes a toll on outward visibility and interior headroom. All engineering is a compromise.
    2
  614.  @NEWNATURE777  It is more aerodynamic than if they hadn't done those things, but overall it is still less aerodynamic than its predecessor. Per Car and Driver: "This styling decision was made despite a worsened drag coefficient of 0.27, versus last year's 0.24."
    2
  615.  @grimdarksandwich66  Fair enough. Personally, I had a choice when recommending a '17 Civic (first on this chassis and with these powertrains) for a family member, and I steered them toward the base model with this engine because it's bulletproof in a way the 1.5T is not, and because I was satisfied with this engine's performance in an older CR-V. But if enough buyers feel like you do, it sounds like Honda's got a hybrid powertrain locked and loaded in foreign markets and can simply port it here. More broadly, the whole "satisfy routine needs" question is the one we've been talking about with the Camry for 20 years. Most people aren't car people. They just want a car, to get them and the kids and their stuff where they're going without drama and at reasonable cost. This will do that pretty well, and although you or I are unlikely to buy it, it will please a lot of those people.
    2
  616. 8-speed automatic for the V6 ES 350, e-CVT for the hybrid ES 300h. Do know, however, that the e-CVT doesn't have the belts or awful reliability problems of Nissan's CVTs. They're bulletproof.
    2
  617.  @mohammedkj1239  Yes. The people who don't want anything to do with Nissans for that reason... are basically right.
    2
  618. I'm not sold on this "only government is to blame." Sales of the 2.0T were really anemic -- hard as it is for us to grasp, most Accord buyers are not enthusiasts. And it's the public, not that damn guvmint, that's choosing SUVs and thereby forcing carmakers to divert their R&D dollars there.
    2
  619. Because using FWD Camry/Avalon mechanicals lets Toyota save cost and keep the packaging compact, so they can deliver a 5/A6/E size car for 3/A4/C money.
    2
  620. Finance it. If you're going to lease, the Germans are nicer. If you're going to finance, this is waaaaay more reliable and durable beyond the lease.
    2
  621. Watch the final thoughts of his video on the Genesis G80. He feels they lack brand continuity in the products, and provide a wretchedly disreputable dealer experience to the customer.
    2
  622. Stating my bias, I chose to buy an ES rather than a Camry. I recently drove a rental Camry, and it's a fine car with clear family resemblance. But there was a reason why I spent extra: The ES is better in multiple ways. Quieter, smoother, better build quality, better sound system, better dealer experience, better everything. Yes it's Camry plus, but the pluses are real.
    2
  623.  @davids1816  David, from an engineering standpoint there's truth to what you say. I don't have blinders on, and as a former German car owner, I was mightily tempted by Audi's offerings in particular. But I also value reliability and don't like to lease. IMO, there's no perfect car in this class right now. One has to choose a weakness.
    2
  624. No, he doesn't imply that. He comes right out and says it.
    2
  625. Similar. A little louder, a little stiffer, a little more nimble.
    2
  626. Not true. The LS has much more costly and luxurious interior materials. In person, it's quite obvious.
    2
  627.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, you've posted the same falsehoods on multiple reviews, even though you've been corrected over and over again. You own a Camry, so Lexus is no better. Genesis is the great god and Lexus is dying. Blah, blah, blah. For the record, the Camry, Avalon and ES share different versions of the same platform, with Avalon and ES being the same size. Stop it.
    2
  628. Also worth noting: I'm not sure whether you dislike the eCVT for its shifting behavior or for the poor reliability reputation of CVT's. If it's the shifting, I fully understand. If it's the reliability, don't worry for a second; Toyota's iteration has no mechanical similarity to that Nissan crap and is utterly bulletproof.
    2
  629. None. it's cancelled after 2022.
    2
  630. Thanks for your contribution. Is it ugly in some way that is not apparent in the five minutes of comprehensive interior photography shown in this video, or are you just expressing your personal taste about the same design that we can all see and judge for ourselves?
    2
  631. My understanding is that this car has no native nav, only online. If that's what you mean by "full," you appear to be right.
    2
  632. Buy a 2019-22 CPO and you'll still get the CD player. Meanwhile, that whole time some people ridiculed Lexus as an old man's car because it DID have the CD player. They can't win.
    2
  633.  @alaskanassassin7332  My pleasure. Correcting myself a bit, Mark notes elsewhere in the comments that this is based on the chassis update done for the Crown, and you certainly could expect those same tweaks to show up in the next ES in some form. Cheers back at you.
    2
  634.  @Shane-zx4ps  He means he's an American. This was designed for Chinese tastes, and Americans are no longer the target audience.
    2
  635.  @Lucas-wp2ph  Depends on what you mean by "electric cars." They can't make their hybrids fast enough.
    2
  636. What a fresh, illuminating take you've provided. Why, one wouldn't find this comment more than, oh, 200 times on YouTube comments. FYI, the Camry got a completely new platform in 2018, and its big brothers the Avalon and ES followed in 2019. Most testers said it changed all three cars behaviorally for the better.
    2
  637.  @panarai_fan  Not what the stats say.
    2
  638.  @rosendorendonjr  Most reviewers who've driven both dismiss the ES 250 despite its AWD because its 4-cylinder Camry engine is loud, coarse and slow compared to the ES 350's V6, and cheapens the character of the car.
    2
  639. You made this very same rude, irrelevant and disrespectful post 3 days ago, still visible below for the extremely small number of people who care to see it. Just for the record, I counted exactly one religious reference in the entire video, an innocuous "May the Lord bless and keep you" way at the end. Not exactly a filibuster of religious propaganda. What's your real problem here?
    2
  640.  @user-cx2bk6pm2f  English Translation: "I'll leave a couple more smears against an innocent provider of information, just to keep myself feeling important."
    2
  641. I used mine yesterday. That's +1.
    2
  642. You can't buy an SUV for the same price. Not with equal power and features. SUVs command a price premium of thousands.
    2
  643. Lexus warranties the battery for 8 years/100,000 miles, but reports from owners of various Toyota and Lexus hybrids say that many last much, much longer. There's a Prius in our family that's gone 14 years and 150k with no hiccups. Some NYC Prius cabs reportedly have gone over 300k.
    2
  644.  @PaulHo  Sure they can mix. It's just backing off the timing advancement on the fly if it senses regular so it doesn't get preignition knock.
    2
  645.  @PaulHo  You're welcome, Paul! And I think it was thoughtful of Mazda to publish horsepower and torque both ways so you knew what you were gaining or losing.
    2
  646. I assume you think you're being cute here. But just for the record: 1980 Ford Pinto 2.3: 88 hp, 0-60 13.8 seconds. Lexus ES 300h: 215 hp, 0-60 8.1 seconds.
    2
  647. Throughout its 30-year history, the ES has always deleted the folding rear seats of the Camry and later the Avalon to insert a trapezoid-shaped structural brace for greater chassis rigidity. Critics have always responded that the Germans don't seem to have any problem making a rigid chassis with folding rear seats, but the Germans also are designing their sedans from the ground up to sell at high prices, not modifying an affordable family car to behave like a luxury sedan. Whatever the reason, that's always what they've chosen to do.
    2
  648. Problem is, nobody bought it, or we'd still have it.
    2
  649. Thank you for sharing some actual, informative personal experience instead of just coughing up some "I'll never try it" sputum onto your keyboard like some of the other posters here.
    2
  650.  @tex24  Panel alignment issues? My last car was Japan-built, my other car is Japan-built, and I know all the talk. But as for the Kentucky-built ES, that hasn't been my experience, at all. An absolutely trivial misalignment around the front wheelwell-bumper junction, and nothing else anywhere. Paint quality is excellent.
    2
  651. Now you know. Better still, the quality and production values of those videos are higher than ever and reflect more investment. Check out the Corvette vs. 911 test or the 5-way hot hatch shootout. I think you'll be impressed.
    2
  652. You're right.
    2
  653.  @77.88.  Similar story here. 13 years (bought used), 154k miles, zero crises.
    2
  654. First, drive it a little more just to keep it healthy, just the way you'd run your horse. Drive it every week or so for 20+ minutes until it's fully warmed up. Second, change the oil based on time, not just mileage. In your case, probably annually. Third, when you take it through the car wash, pay extra in winter for the one that sprays the underbody. It'll probably last until it rusts. Good luck!
    2
  655. This car actaully hasn't delivered superior reliability scores per Consumer Reports, and others have reported the engine is extremely complex if it needs repair.
    1
  656.  @analysethis6061  I wouldn't go so far as to say it's unreliable. The Car Care Nut is a certified Lexus tech, and in his video on this car he flatly says he's heard the buzz about unreliability and that it's unjustified. But it is more complex than its predecessors, by far.
    1
  657. Until the LaCrosse breaks. Then they seem different. BTW, multiple testers including C/D savaged the higher trim levels of the LaCrosse as unconscionably overpriced for what you got.
    1
  658. There is no Ultra Luxury F Sport. It's either/or. No F Sport gives you leather upholstery, sound-insulating front door glass, or some other Ultra Luxury features. No Ultra Luxury gives you the moving gauge cluster, the F Sport style buckets, or the option of the adaptive variable suspension.
    1
  659. Completely agree, so much so that I waited till '22 to get the car just to avoid using the damn touchpad. It's an abomination. Even the '22 touchscreen implementation of the old software, let alone the '23's improved new system, is enormously better.
    1
  660. Thanks for sharing that.
    1
  661. The ES 350 started to be closely related to the Avalon in 2013.
    1
  662. Get over yourself. He's providing a valuable service. If his beliefs are what motivate him to do so, good for him that he found something that works for him.
    1
  663.  @user-cx2bk6pm2f  You started off your own post by admitting "These videos are so good and informational." Evidently, you trust his automotive judgment. So it's not really about that at all. Speaking of the fiction aisle, what's the truth about what your real problem with this man is?
    1
  664.  @user-cx2bk6pm2f  You contradicted yourself. You lack the balls to admit it. You're not nearly cool enough to carry off the attempted mic drop escape. Fail.
    1
  665.  @user-cx2bk6pm2f  Pro Tip: Before attempting the ultra-cool mic drop stunt here, practice on pets and children first in the safety of Mom's basement. BTW, seems you were bereft enough of a life that you not only watched to the very end of a long video (since that's where his only religious reference was), but you also had enough wanking time left over to comment on it 3 separate times.
    1
  666.  @user-cx2bk6pm2f  Thought you said "Bye bye"? At any rate (in this case, rather slow), you can direct junior-high slights at me to your heart's content, so long as you stop insulting our host for providing us useful information at no cost.
    1
  667.  @Argedis  First, it should be made clear that Stephen's car shares nothing but an engine with the car Savagegeese is discussing; it moved to a whole new platform for 2019. As for the comparison of today's V6 vs. hybrid, Savagegeese did 2019 videos on both. Mark concluded that the hybrid better suited the sedate character of the car.
    1
  668.  @wolfshanze5980  What's he supposed to do, take it back because you slut-shamed him? This isn't the only person on this thread you've replied to with disrespect, Wolfshanze. Really, take stock of yourself.
    1
  669.  @wolfshanze5980  Yes, I have posted some replies here. Examine them and you'll find some concepts foreign to you, like "You're right" and "Thank you." So, your answer to advice about rudeness is that I'm to be disregarded because you were born later than I was? That's all you've got? Wow, I thought young guys were potent. But, very well.
    1
  670. See the ES 7th gen thread on Club Lexus, where an owner documents this installation with photos. The short version: The car's not rated for a hitch, and installing a hitch made for an Avalon requires some surgery.
    1
  671.  @sb971  But if you like your car -- and you sure hope you'd like your new $40-50k ES -- those racks can be nasty on the paint.
    1
  672. Added it for '22.
    1
  673. You were not correct, and third-party reliability reports like Consumer Reports' long-term survey of 200,000 owners bore that out. Both the Avalon and the ES proved significantly more reliable than any Buick.
    1
  674.  @yiyangcheng  Although you're having a different experience than most owners have on average, I'm glad what you have now is working for you.
    1
  675.  @francismarion6400  Why is the "cutting off genital" trend concerning? Are people doing it against their will? Are they proposing to cut off yours?
    1
  676. Supposedly all the hard points of the RL lined up exactly if you parked one next to either the TL or Accord of the same era. Honda's corporate culture was notorious for doing more with less, to the point where they literally didn't like wasting a pencil. So all the materials were different, but all the dimensions were the same.
    1
  677. No it won't.
    1
  678. If this car came with forced induction and AWD, it would be an LS 500.
    1
  679.  @mholmes9262  All LS 500's come with forced induction (twin turbos) as standard equipment. LS 500 is available with either RWD or AWD, and in the Snow Belt you can assume the vast majority of sales are the latter, just like BMW. An AWD ES with forced induction would be a machine of vastly higher cost and complexity, forfeiting most of the price advantage that comes from its more pedestrian Avalon/Camry underpinnings and making it "more comparable to the A6 and 5 Series" in that respect as well. That's why I said the car you're describing is an LS 500. Lexus tried to go head-to-head with A6 and 5 Series handling and sophistication with the GS; it was a terrific car, but nobody bought it. So, here we are.
    1
  680. Hope this pleases the Chinese buyers it was designed for. I'm left cold, but I suspect Toyota doesn't care that much.
    1
  681. After that, you deserve time in heaven as compensation.
    1
  682. And not coincidentally, from the American ES to the Chinese ES. We are no longer the target audience for the design of this car. Whether we like it is really pretty irrelevant now.
    1
  683. I'm puzzled by this comment. I'm 6' 2" with a long torso and have room to spare. A 6' 4" gentlemen just below says the same.
    1
  684. There's a panoramic sunroof as an option on non-hybrids.
    1
  685. Yes and no. Camry and ES both had a complete chassis changeout about 5 years ago, so any "older" one will not perform as well. And compared to any Camry, this has more chassis rigidity, more soundproofing, and a longer wheelbase for a smoother highway ride and more rear seat room.
    1
  686. Replacing the slippery OEM tires with better ones (Primacy, Quatrac Pro, others) helps that somewhat. Enjoy!
    1
  687.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, for once we agree. This is how you make a useful post!
    1
  688. Nothing informative in your post, just a half-truth you read.
    1
  689. Unfair comparison. I had exactly the same thought, but then looked it up and saw the Camry is six thousand dollars more expensive. As perspective, that's Lexus ES or IS money.
    1
  690.  @GXKid06  You're right and I'm wrong about the Camry's starting price. I should take more time on my next web search.
    1
  691. No. There are aftermarket products available, but they're kind of a pain in the @ss.
    1
  692. It's from Mark's youth. He's told this story previously.
    1
  693. History proved him right. Even the targeted audience of older Buy American types spurned this car, which is why Buick killed it off less than 6 months after his review. P.S. I'm old too, and even I can't get all worked up about his wardrobe. Raiti's Rides always reviews in shorts -- did you post that complaint about him?
    1
  694. Not quite. ES tops Avalon with a more insulated underbody, more sophisticated shocks on most models, extra structural stiffness front and rear, vibration-absorbing chassis dampers on top trim levels, tighter overall tolerances and panel gaps, more layers of paint, better overall interior materials, and superior standard and optional sound systems.
    1
  695. Lemmy explain marketing to you. if you don't advertise, you don't sell in volume. if you don't sell in volume, your cost per unit goes up, because you can't amortize your fixed costs like design and tooling. Duh.
    1
  696. Wagons are massively popular, except jacked up 4 inches and with black plastic on the wheelwells so the buyers can deny to themselves that's what they buying.
    1
  697. This is correct, and it really annoys me. I want that real sedan.
    1
  698. BS. You may dislike it, and that's fine. But at this price from this brand, the sales of this thing will be anything but "insignificant."
    1
  699. Savagegeese has addressed that in several other reviews you can find. In his ES300h review in 2019, he said the ES 350 has admirable engine smoothness, but the hybrid powertrain in non-F Sport versions better matches the personality of the car.
    1
  700. I wonder about that, too.
    1
  701. If you're after a comfortable ride, you should know the ride varies in different models and years. The 2013-16 is stiffer, the Avalon Touring is stiffer, and the 2013-18 ES is probably the softest of all. Of course, there is a handling penalty the softer you go.
    1
  702. So, you''re unaware that the most popular Scion 15 years ago was really built by Daihatsu, huh?
    1
  703. No secret at all. It's an old saying: Buy Japanese, lease German.
    1
  704. I've never been treated with more open contempt than when I walked into an Audi dealership two years ago and talked with the sales representative. I was an older, successful professional and they were such a rookie they didn't even have a cublcle. Yet they sneered at me continuously, condescendingly told me things about the engine technology while resolutely ignoring I'd just told them the same things first, and generally left me with the conclusion that their management had set the tone that this was a perfectly okay way to treat customers. It was a real part of why they didn't win my business.
    1
  705. If you can afford it, I'd get the Luxury or Ultra Luxury. I agree, the leather and Levinson take the car farther in the direction of why you'd choose one of these.
    1
  706.  @eleanormassaro5195  Yes, although most also say that CX-5's independent rear is less jostled by road imperfections.
    1
  707. Top models now have a touchscreen added expressly for buyers like you. They've also added a wireless charger, and you can easiliy swap on bigger tires (they'll fit) at modest cost. Ventilated seats, you're on your own.
    1
  708.  @kristians2704  Clearly, word about the legendarily coddling LS 430 never reached your neck of the woods.
    1
  709. Yes, I'm sure the leather in the Jeep Trackhawk "is probably higher than that boring ass Toyota." Thanks for weighing in with that objective report.
    1
  710. Or the meaning of "ABS module fire" or "metal shavings in engine."
    1
  711. $50k is a lot of money to most of us. If your point is that you're so wealthy that you can afford to be casual about that amount of money, there's a guillotine out in the back for you.
    1
  712. The estimate is a bit off, but with this car it also depends on how much time you lose to wheelspin at the start of the run.
    1
  713. @@japanwatchconnection As with many of the self-justifying posts you've put up in this thread, this post is full of crap. In fact, it was the 1990 Lexus LS that achieved breakthrough levels of road and tire noise suppression, using then-innovative approaches like fibrous wheelwell liners.
    1
  714. I wonder if his problem was either overinflated or aftermarket tires.
    1
  715. Service pick-up and drop-off is not unheard of. Lexus does that, and I suspect some other luxury makes do too.
    1
  716.  @IvanBosnjak89  Wow. I'm sorry to hear that, Ivo.
    1
  717. No and no. Avalon's top models had both. No ES has either one. You'd probably prefer a certified Avalon, and they're a terrific value too.
    1
  718. No, but the ES doesn't cost like it either.
    1
  719. That's your loss, Zaur. This is a sequel to last year's review of the same car, which had exactly the ride quality assessment you're reaming them for skipping. Second, the "two snobs" disagreed with each other, so there's only one snob. Don't let the door hit your superior ass on the way out.
    1
  720. I drove both, and I drove the Signature first because I really wanted to like it. The Signature has a prettier interior, but in driving demeanor and spaciousness they don't compare. The Signature is too firm and loud to be a luxury car, doesn't have enough body control to be a real sports sedan, and its 4-banger engine note, while not unpleasant, just can't compete with a silent, silky N/A V6.
    1
  721. Wait, let me guess who you vote for and how you feel about guns.
    1
  722. Set aside $4k extra for the replacement traction battery.
    1
  723.  @kassandras9857  That's a ballpark price to have a Toyota dealer put a new OEM replacement battery into a Prius.
    1
  724. The driver is Jack.
    1
  725. I feel you, but when Lexus offered that in the GS, nobody bought it. It's hard to blame them for walking away.
    1
  726.  @Janfey  One of the tasteful few. My compliments!
    1
  727. A year later. How do you like it?
    1
  728.  @giantblob7075  That's great to hear. Keep enjoying your luxury car!
    1
  729. Why couldn't you retrofit a CX-50 with smaller wheels and tires? You won't have any problems with clearance, and the turbo version barely weighs more overall.
    1
  730. I haven't driven the current HR-V, but this sounds exactly right to me. Very few who tested the HR-V had glowing things to say about its comfort, quietness or performance. This looks to me like a considerable upgrade.
    1
  731. The fact that you're all for capitalism explains the myopia that suffuses the rest of your post. Are you this dismissive of air or rail travel? Because both depend on massive public subsidies to survive. All your complaints would be remedied by the similar infrastructure investment that needs to be made here but so far hasn't been. P.S. I'd much rather hug trees than meet you.
    1
  732. Comparing this to an S4 or M340i is silly. Nobody who wants that performance should be cross-shopping this car. However, comparing the ES to a G80, low-end A6 or 530i is not. To me, the ES is to those cars as a loaded Accord is to the ES; you pay less, you get less, and which value equation is best is up to you.
    1
  733. The base CX-50 has a street price in the $20s. What do you expect?
    1
  734. Heard reviews that they're different, and that on top trims, the decorative stitching up the middle drives some people nuts (no pun intended).
    1
  735. Maybe because this thing mechanically isn't really a Crown, it's a jacked-up Avalon.
    1
  736. If you're talking about the ES interior, the Premium, Luxury and Ultra Luxury trim levels do include real wood on the dash and doors.
    1
  737.  @lostalx  The smaller IS sedan is still on the GS chassis and has the old-school powertrains. But mostly, yeah.
    1
  738. Not quite every level. I've still never heard of an Acura that burned its owner's house down.
    1
  739. I think that was the plan, but the CX-5 flipped a wrench into it by outselling its heir apparent 3 to 1.
    1
  740. Generally speaking, it allows a better ride/handling compromise and greater freedom from creaks, rattles and squeaks.
    1
  741. Mark, it's impossible not to notice Jack's absence—not even any B58 jokes. Is he still a part of Savagegeese?
    1
  742. I'm also 6'2" with a long upper body and don't fit in some cars (including yesteryear's Lexus ES 330), but i fit in this car with no problem.
    1
  743. They said its driving dynamics don't match a comparable sedan, so I think they answered your question for you.
    1
  744. @@japanwatchconnection Stay as classy and respectful as you are.
    1
  745. Much different cars. The ES is a gas mileage leader with a 4. The GS is a V6 with screaming acceleration.
    1
  746. Very selective of you. So, what do you prefer at the price?
    1
  747. Did you get it, and how do you like it?
    1
  748. Depends on the option load, the interest rate, the balance you don't cover with a down payment, and your credit score. Like your Land Cruiser? Keep it.
    1
  749. Different personalities entirely. TLX is aimed more at the 3 Series.
    1
  750. With all due respect, that wouldn't be a very smart choice. But then, maybe you meant this as humor. It's hard to tell.
    1
  751. Federal and state EV incentives are so big, they make up the entire price difference between a Prius Prime and a Tesla Model 3. Let that sink in. It'd make more sense for society's priorities to subsidize both.
    1
  752.  @korswe  "A Tesla is at least 5 times as efficient as a gas car." The EPA says the eMPG energy consumption of the Tesla Model 3 is just over twice as good as the regular Prius, let alone the Prime, so your argument falls apart pretty fast. What is my point? That replacing two SUVs with Priuses saves just as much gas as replacing one SUV with a Tesla. Both advance a worthwhile societal goal. This really isn't rocket science, if Elon will pardon the expression. And as for marking your words, okay: You predict the world's #1 automaker will soon go broke. Got it.
    1
  753.  @korswe  You're making my point for me: BOTH cars are vastly more efficient than the gas-swilling vehicles they might replace, so both are worth incentivizing with tax breaks to reduce gas consumption and emissions. And, way to change the subject with the CD joke. P.S. I'll admit it: I LIKE a CD player in my car. Not all of us are either youthful or conformist.
    1
  754. Tell me you didn't watch this whole video or the previous one without telling me.
    1
  755.  @mikeydude750  Then how did we do it successfully in the past?
    1
  756.  @saab93aero41  Companies with a healthy, stable business model have persisted for centuries. This "constant growth or death" mindset is an artificial invention of greedy short-term investors.
    1
  757.  @garythecyclingnerd6219  Business schools teach lots of things that are BS. And we've always been told anything that disrupts the wealthy is impossible.
    1
  758. Not bad!
    1
  759. ES 300h has a four-cylinder engine and a hybrid battery. This has a V6 and a traditional eight-speed automatic transmission.
    1
  760. I think that's exactly what they'll do with the next one in 2 years or so.
    1
  761. I've heard the same.
    1
  762. Nothing. They made one, the GS. People didn't buy it, just like people on car forums say they'd buy stick shifts but don't.
    1
  763. For someone who lives on a pothole-filled road, a torsion-bear rear suspension vehicle is not the best choice. You might like the ride of the CX-5 or various other independent-rear-suspension vehicles better.
    1
  764. This is absolutely not true. The car has been a sales disaster, less than 3,800 sold in the entire United States in calendar 2022.
    1
  765. This car has real wood trim on the dash, the steering wheel, and all four doors in the upper trim levels (including this test car). It's easily overlooked in videos because it's stained flat black. Personally I don't like this design choice either, but it is wood trim.
    1
  766. The V6 engine overpowers the front wheels just as easily in the Avalon. It's the same engine. But the Avalon is thousands less. No matter which engine you prefer, if you can find an Avalon right now, you might do well on price since it's not an in-demand model and the stigma of '22 being its final year might make it more affordable.
    1
  767. Yes, but I'll bet you also don't prefer that the car cost $65,000 like a loaded Genesis G80 or a stripped Audi A6.
    1
  768.  @davids1816  I'm extremely familiar with your point. My problem with it is that it's glib but not completely accurate. First, the ES is more than just "a Camry with sound insulation and elegant styling." It's bigger and rides better. Its chassis is stiffer. Its materials throughout are better. The standards to which it's buiit are higher, from parts quality to fit & finish to the paint job. It's also backed by the best sales and service organization of any major nameplate, which also costs money. The other 50k cars you praise may not share parts with other, more pedestrian models (or, like the A4 and G80 four-bangers, they may). But none combines size, comfort, luxury, quality and smooth V6 power at that price like the ES does. For buyers who don't value this combination of attributes, yes, there's any number of alternatives. But for those like me who do, no other car can match that combination—and the ES's reuse of many high-volume Camry parts, far from a source of shame, is what makes that unique value proposition possible.
    1
  769.  @davids1816  First, I have no intention of "eliminating the engine" in my shopping process. Lexus's plans to downgrade their engine in the future have no relevance whatsoever to its qualities today. Second, I happen to be 67, and I have no intention of "taking out my hearing aid" since the Mark Levinson system sounds so crisp and excellent without it (and since I don't own one, you ageist bigot). Finally, "not good enough at that price": You gloss over a lot of points with careless generalities like "A Honda Accord is also quiet and reliable"—yes, but a little less of each. That's the point. As Michael Karesh of TrueDelta put it in his ES 350 review, "Diminishing marginal returns (as prices rise into luxury goods territory) are a thing." Question: Name another car that provides the room, ride, quality and smooth V6 power of the ES at its "not good enough" price. Answer: You can't, which is why I didn't simply donate an extra $17,000 as a car nut to get absolutely nothing in return, simply because I'm just not as clever or discriminating as you.
    1
  770.  @texan903  Stating my bias up front as an ES buyer, Avalon was a fine car and a better value overall in many ways, but it was not a better car. The ES is clearly superior in numerous specific metrics: sound insulation, standard and optional sound systems, quality of interior mateirals being just a few. The Avalon objectively beat the ES in three areas: folding rear seats (not an ES omission, but reflects a choice by engineers to add an extra structural stiffening brace to the ES that blocks the pass-through), the availability of heated rear seats (a real and puzzling ES omission), and that stupid touchpad --- but in '22, ES fixed it with a touchscreen. Every other area, ES generally wins, as it should with its higher price.
    1
  771.  @texan903  Appreciate the correction, and there's truth in what you say: From a car-per-dollar perspective, I'd have to agree the Avalon was the clear winner. I ended up choosing the ES partly because I was a bit lucky with money, and partly because I felt that if I was stretching for a better and costlier car than the Corolla or Camry that would also get me there, I wanted to go up far enough to get the level of froufrou that would make me truly satisfied with my purchase. That choice, of course, is a purely personal evaluation for each of us. Be well.
    1
  772. Honestly, yes, this class IS on the extinction list. Already gone the way of the dodo: RLX, Q70, XTS, Maxima, Cadenza, LTZ, Passat, Impala, LaCrosse, Avalon...
    1
  773. If they made this with the V8, it'd need AWD. If it had the V8 and AWD, it would BE the LS 500.
    1
  774. More like a plain apples to fancy caramel apples comparison. The ES has more of just about everything.
    1
  775. ES has a compact spare. But if you take out the styrofoam spacer above it, there's enough space in the well for a full-size spare if you choose to buy one on your own.
    1
  776. Yes, but most of those people will be in China. That's who this is designed for. A shrinking number of America's already shrinking number of executive sedan buyers still will stick with this out of badge loyalty, but it's not designed for Americans and it won't appeal to them in any great numbers, which ultimately doesn't really concern Lexus all that much; it's the RX and NX that keep the lights on now.
    1
  777. My, this is clever. in the 30 years of the ES's existence, I've never seen another joke like it.
    1
  778. Gentlemen, if the concluding music is the new standard outro going forward, I like it.
    1
  779. Because this BMW is so passionate and involving, right? Next time, watch the review before pecking out smug comments on it.
    1
  780. Try charcoal-colored dye.
    1
  781.  @jpete3027666  Baking the dash in extreme heat is a bad idea iwith any car, but I don't think there's any reason to worry the current Lexus model is uniquely susceptible more than any other modern car with soft–touch surfaces.
    1
  782.  @ryanlittleton5615  Five years later, that one poster's LaCrosse posts have aged like fine... milk.
    1
  783. Four years on, how did you like it?
    1
  784. Yes. For 30 years, Lexus ES has deleted the folding rear seats and added a trapezoid-shaped metal reinforcing brace behind the seatback for extra frame rigidity. Evidently their research tells them that luxury buyers value the added solidity and reduced chassis flex more than the cargo versatility that would be a higher priority in a family sedan. The hole in its middle is just big enough for the ski pass-through.
    1
  785. In every generation, lots of C List celebrities sell out. I remember Jack Jones singing "What a beautiful New Yorker" for Lee Iacocca. Hell, I remember Frank Sinatra selling out for Lee Iacocca.
    1
  786. "Minus the current tech" covers a lot of ground, though. Today's cars must meet vastly tougher crash safety and emissions standards, and the numbers show the new safety features like automatic braking and blind spot monitoring really help. It would be neither legal nor popular to sell the 2007 design now.
    1
  787. Every generation of the LS is unquestionably more solid and made of more luxurious, expensive stuff than the new ES, and I say that as the owner of a '22 ES. The LS 430, especially, is just epic.
    1
  788. No. Entirely different chassis, Camry is FWD and LS is RWD-based AWD, all different parts.
    1
  789. Huh?
    1
  790. Both should be extremely reliable. The ES300h might need a costly battery after about 15 years, but in the meantime, it will save you thousands on reduced gas usage and slower brake wear. But, the ES 250 is a louder and less pleasant car overall; despite its AWD advantage, most reviewers say it's the least desirable ES.
    1
  791. You could keep your kids from ever sleeping again if you tell them stories about service on German brands, then.
    1
  792. They have a redesigned car abroad; I think it's called the Crown (no relation to the new humpbacked abomination coming here in '23). It's a beautiful car, and I'd it if it were here, but I guess they just can't see a business case for importing it in this SUV-mad era.
    1
  793. Yes with normal maintenance, although probably with a battery change in the second half of that interval. That's pricey, but less so than on a pure-electric car because the hybrid's battery is much smaller. On a Prius, it's about $4,000.
    1
  794.  @alex99398  Genesis ain't German, but reliability data say it ain't Lexus either. And Hyundai dealers are inferior to Lexus dealers in more ways than just the coffee and Danish.
    1
  795.  @dfsdh432v9  I don't know about that, but Lexus is probably the most reliable brand in the US market, and Genesis definitely isn't that. And if it breaks, I've heard anecdotally that the wait for parts can be loooong. They don't sell many G90's here.
    1
  796.  @alex99398  "Genesis dealers" barely even exist in most parts of America at this point. Most Genesis vehicles are sold and serviced by Hyundai dealers, confirmed by numerous survey as wildly inferior to Lexus dealers, the best in the industry. Pickup and dropoff are not unique to Genesis; Lexus dealers have long provided them. Don't talk down to me.
    1
  797. Mr. Levinson himself posted to a discussion board some years ago. He made it clear he has no participation in most of the car stereos that bear his name. It's just one of Harman-Kardon's many car stereo brand names now.
    1
  798. Cheaper, certainly. A better value, arguably. A better car, no.
    1
  799. First, you clearly haven't inspected the upmarket versions of the LS with pleated door fabrics and even optional decorative cut glass. Second, the G90 is nearly double the price of the most loaded ES, so it damn well better look more expensive.
    1
  800. Legitimate point, and a lot of people have made it. BTW, what country are you in? The back-seat features of the ES vary widely by country. In the States, it is as you say; in some other countries, you can get an extensive panel of controls back there.
    1
  801. They didn't say Car Of The Eight Years.
    1
  802.  @gcash2074  No argument there!
    1
  803. "Knows zip." Who are you talking about? I assume not the host; he's an experienced Lexus master technician who's had his hands in all these cars up to the elbows.
    1
  804. I don't get the "frustration" thing. I have this system on an ES, and it's garish but very simple to use. If you want to experience real frustration, try any Lexus from the '13 LS to the '20 LS with a screen but no touch capability, just an infuriating puck or mousepad that won't let you place the cursor where you want while you're trying to drive the damn car.
    1
  805.  @phlydude  I agree, Dennis. For 30 years, the Camry and Avalon have had a fold-down rear seat, and the related Lexus ES has had an additional chassis brace instead. Rightly or wrongly, Lexus clearly believes rigidity is a higher priority than cargo versatility for buyers in this segment.
    1
  806. No, quite the opposite: The roof doesn't go high enough. The back of recent Prius/Corolla/Camry has the same problem. They went all swoopy in the belief that if you wanted rear headroom, you'd buy an SUV. The back seat of a 2010-15 Prius is a gymnasium by comparison.
    1
  807. Most would say an excellent-condition LS 430 wins. Not only over the ES, but over nearly every other mass-market car ever made. Truly amazingly high-quality machines.
    1
  808. Problem is, it didn't sell.
    1
  809. Acura has no direct alternative to this car since they killed off the RLX. Next year they'll be killing off the smaller TLX, and then they'll have no sedans at all except the sports-oriented and Civic-derived Integra.
    1
  810. Huh?
    1
  811. In 18 months you'll get your wish, although not with a V6.
    1
  812. It might have survived if it'd had a price to match. Car and Driver agreed it was grossly overpriced.
    1
  813. They already reviewed the new C Class. Look it up.
    1
  814. Until you tried to use the old one that looked prettier but was unusable while driving.
    1
  815.  @ConKhiMyDen  Does this inflexibilty also paralyze you from adapting to change in the other parts of your life?
    1
  816.  @singular9  Never owned a GM long-term, eh?
    1
  817. Agree with both you and Geese, but the decision was probably price-driven. Using off-the-shelf drivetrain compoments helps keeps the luxurious ES semi-affordable.
    1
  818. Funny you should say that. I think it looks so similar at all non-grille angles to the now-extinct Mazda 6 that when I see an ES or a Mazda 6 in red, I have to look twice to distinguish them.
    1
  819. Regarding the BMW, the reason the smallest BMWs aren't driver's cars is that they're built on a front-wheel-drive based platform shared with Mini brand SUVs. If you want the driver's car of SUVs, you have to move up to the X3 that shares the RWD architecture of the 3 Series sedan.
    1
  820.  @phunk8607  Yeah, but the dirty secret of the German luxury trio is that they all sell cheap cars in Europe. Audi has a bunch of FWD cars there. Mercedes has trucks and taxis.
    1
  821. Yes, the ES ls slightly quieter, and the Luxury and Ultra Luxury versions a bit quieter still. But even the Avalon is a quiet, solid car.
    1
  822. Well, they've nailed the first half of it at least.
    1
  823.  @ahmadmohamad6384  Okay, you don't accept it. If you really are avoiding the ES only for this reason, you should seek out a very similar late-model used Avalon Limited; its rear seat folds down.
    1
  824. Tightening emissions standards.
    1
  825.  @bcatz454  Actually, ES production didn't move to the US until two years later. But beyond that, I think it has less to do with the country of origin and more with the simply less expensive spec of the car. My Kentucky-built '22 ES has Lexus-grade fit, finish, alignment and tightness (and my previous car was a Japan-built Acura RL from Honda' flagship Saitama plant with hand-rubbed paint, so I do have a context for comparison).
    1
  826. Me too. There's a reason it costs 3/4 less.
    1
  827. If your driving were mostly short trips, a plug-in hybrid could run the first 10-30 miles or so on elecrtricity only, allowing you to use almost no gas at all. For those people, that's an enormous selling point.
    1
  828.  @rightlanehog3151  Hell, it was a major mistake to build the Crown sedan.
    1
  829.  @jgrab1  Well, I guess that does it: Your 2014 Hyundai Sonata is clearly better built with better materials than this Lexus ES 350.
    1
  830.  @jgrab1  That Lexus driver may have fundamentally misunderstood what a modern car is supposed to do in a crash: fold up like an accordion to absorb G forces so your body doesn't. Several years back, BMW 3 sedans were staying rigid in crashes just like you're bragging your Sonata did. The reason is because they were deficiently engineered, resulting in poor crash-test protection scores. And ironically, a Sonata weakness cited even in C/D's 2023 comparison test is that the chassis is less rigid than competitors in the ways that you actually want it to be.
    1
  831. Except they've reviewed this model 4 times and made the point you're making in the previous 3.
    1
  832. Toyota knew the previous Land Cruiser was a stealth rich person's vehicle, so they made sure the new one still appealed to those people as a daily. Then they created an artificial distinction between the GS/Land Cruiser and the essentially identical 4Runner to justify the price gulf. It's the same reason you can't get a Camry with nicer upholstery on the dash and doors than terry dishtowels, because that's Lexus territory.
    1
  833. "Snowflakes"?! Lemme guess, it'd look better with a gun rack, right?
    1
  834.  @LoneWolfSparty  Overall, what was your experience with that engine?
    1
  835.  @LoneWolfSparty  Thanks for sharing that. Even so, that's a lot more temperamental than I'm used to hearing from Toyota engines.
    1
  836.  @LoneWolfSparty  Thanks. This is really useful, practical advice. Digressing a bit, I have the venerable Toyota/Lexus naturally aspirated V6, and I was surprised to see it has a 60k spark plug change interval. Because of direct injection, I'd guess?
    1
  837.  @LoneWolfSparty  Thanks!
    1
  838. Depends. Regardless of age, if you value handling precision, you might miss it.
    1
  839. Nimble, no. But all this talk I hear about "slow"... 6.1 seconds to 60 isn't best in class, but it's not slow.
    1
  840.  @lex-cc3nu  I agree with you. Six seconds is plenty fast enough to meet my needs, too.
    1
  841. Some of your best work in a while. Very even-handed, very informative. Thanks.
    1
  842.  @heartcomedy5  If he revs up for 5 hours, he'd better see a physician.
    1
  843.  @normt430  "most manufacturers are reliable"? Not equally so, and third-party reliability statistics from multiple sources prove it (Consumer Reports surveys of its 200,000 owners are just one). History has judged the LaCrosse and its flawed 3.6L GM engine. Your mom's LaCrosse only proves the reliability of your mom's LaCrosse; it is a survey with a sample size of 1.
    1
  844.  @felixt1470  It's close. Measure to be sure.
    1
  845. I think they were pretty damn gutsy to ream this car the way they did in a world where auto testers depend on carmakers to give them access to both cars and info. I also think they made clear that if the Lucid Air is half as good as others say it is, these guys will acknowledge that goodness; they've done nothing to support the cheap swipe you take at their integrity here.
    1
  846. That's why they offer two sizes.
    1
  847. Story goes that Acura executives discovered the Legand and Integra names resonated with US buyers more than Acura did. Unbelievably, they responded by killing off both names in an insane attempt to force consumers to recognize Acura. History tells what inevitably happened instead. In 2009 came their next hissy fit, the beak grille, and even though that effectively crippled sales of both the TL and RL, nearly a decade went by before they finally let go of it.
    1
  848.  @sleeksilver  And out-the-door price?...
    1
  849. I think the price difference makes the RDX an unfair ringer of an opponent. They can afford to give it real wood and nicer everything. The biggest thing they have in common is over-fussy infotainment interfaces.
    1
  850. It looks to me like this Prius reflects a fundamentally changed mission. When there were no other hybrid mainstream cars, the Prius was meant to sacrifice nothing. It was mandated to have the passenger room of a Camry, the versatility of a hatchback, the mileage and emissions of an eco-car. But now, that mission has evaporated. The hybrid concept is everywhere, including in Toyota's own lineup, and the Prius was losing sales fast as it'd lost its original reason to exist. With this Prius, Toyota consciously didn't try to recreate the original. In an effort to save the brand, they've reconstituted it as a more stylish, better-performing, higher-priced, less practical style leader. That's why it has snappy little sayings in the plastic all over it. More importantly, it's why it now has poorer outward visibility and no headroom. The target audience for the Prius now is basically single people or couples who have some money and love the idea of the Prius. Toyota figures that for others, there's now the Camry hybrid, RAV 4 hybrid and Corolla hybrid. Now, the sad part is that they deliberately refuse to make a Corolla hatchback hybrid, which would have been the true successor to the frugal and style-free original Prius. At least there's the CorollaCross hybrid, a true successor to the Prius V wagon (except for its crappy Alabama manufacturing). Times change.
    1
  851. I don't believe Toyota thinks that. There's no reason to believe there won't be a next-generation ES. The Crown is more accurately viewed as Toyota's guess of what will attract more empty nesters who weren't buying Avalons.
    1
  852. Costiler for them. It'd require having two different sets of sheetmetal, and the roofline/quarter panel assembly is the most extensive and complex piece of sheetmetal on the entire car. Far easier and cheaper to just tool up for different badges, wheels, seats and springs/shocks.
    1
  853.  @Gemini530  Worth it to folks like you, absolutely. But for it to be worth it to Toyota, they have to sell enough of them. That's a heavy lift for a specialty version of a car that only sells about 30,000 in the US even in basic sedan form. It's why the economics of the Solara haven't added up for Toyota for a long time. For reasons ranging from cargo practicality to insurance prices, people don't buy many two-doors anymore.
    1
  854. A midsize SUV starting at $40k? You haven't priced Lexuses lately.
    1
  855.  @jasonblake2248  That's not comparable. An NX is smaller. Although I stand corrected on the starting price—I just checked Toyota's website, and it's now up to nearly $44k.
    1
  856.  @jasonblake2248  SUVs cost more than sedans. Midsize SUVs cost more than compact SUVs like the NX or UX. And Lexuses cost more than Toyotas. The legit comparison to the Crown is the RX. And in that comparo the Crown, spec-for-spec, wins on price. When it was me, I skipped all of them and got an ES sedan. But SUVs cost more than sedans.
    1
  857.  @jasonblake2248  Here's the real-world pricing story, told by a poster on another video: "I was in the market for a Lexus 350NXh, but here in the Pacific Northwest, the demand for that model is so high that dealers are not selling them for less than $60K all in. I paid $47K for my crown out the door and I'm happy."
    1
  858. And poorer outward visibility and less rear seat room and less cargo versatility and no standard AWD. The CX-30 is a better Mazda3 in almost every way, and the CX-5 is roomier, more sophisticated and better than the CX-30.
    1
  859.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, as usual for your many anti-Lexus trolling posts, your facts are wrong. The Charger, 300 and Maxima are still available as V6 sedans below the high-luxury class.
    1
  860.  @naveenthemachine  Once again, you're incorrect. Going, but not gone. All three have 2023 models.
    1
  861. Not sure where this opinion came from, but the seats vary widely across models. The Corolla, for instance, has shorter seat bottoms because many buyers are women. The ES alone has three distinctly different driver's seats: the F Sport seats with more lateral bolstering, the more comfortable Luxury/Ultra Luxury seat with a thigh extender, and the base seats without one.
    1
  862. Name it.
    1
  863.  @naveenthemachine  I don't own Toyota stock. I'm not going to make excuses for the RX's failures as a luxury vehicle, and I'd neither recommend nor buy one. I WILL say that at least they're not built like trash with shoddy QC and cheap Chinese parts, so at least it'll be pretty much exactly as mediocre at 100,000 miles as the day you bought it. I don't have the same confidence in this thing. Consumer Reports surveys rate the most recent RX's reliability as Much Better Than Average, and the most recent XT6 (2021) as Worse Than Average. I might lease that kind of quality, but I wouldn't buy it. Do you disagree with any part of what I just wrote?
    1
  864. Yet the LaCrosse reported poor Consumer Reports reliability results, was sharply criticized by Car and Driver as lacking value for the money, and bombed out of the US market on account of low sales.
    1
  865. No, reliability is quite unlikely to be "about the same." Toyota's hybrids have historically been much more trouble-free than Honda's, and Hondas overall aren't built to the same standard that they used to be.
    1
  866.  @ONI1013.  B&O isn't a system, it's just a brand name, just like the ML name covers numerous different stereos. Which B&O, in which car?
    1
  867. If BMW did it across the board, you'd call it "classic" and "faithful to the brand."
    1
  868.  @4rubberzaday  But if there's no dealers (as opposed to the current "very few"), where do you go to fulfill it? Imagine trying now to get factory recall work on your Kizashi or Trooper.
    1
  869. Except it's the wagon version of the car they were already selling here as the Crown. Besides, why burden your new model with the name that's already adorned two slow sellers?
    1
  870. You'll get there, Sergio.
    1
  871. If it helps to explain anything, for 30 years the ES has had an extra brace behind the rear seatback to add structural rigidity instead of a larger pass-through.
    1
  872. Dude, this isn't football. His head will hit the windshield before it hits anybody else's head.
    1
  873. Problem was, many people including me found the console-mounted trackpad all bus unusable, so they did an emergency fix that involved making the screen a touchscreen and therefore moving it 4 inches closer, which the dash's lines weren't designed for.
    1
  874. Yes. Standard in all trim levels.
    1
  875. @japanwatchconnection The same plant, yes, but not the same assembly line or workers. Lexus has its own assembly line and paint shop, and Lexus workers are handpicked and given Japanese training. Standards are higher on the Lexus line for parts quality, fit and finish, gap tightness, and paint quality.
    1
  876. Overpriced? You have to figure in that Toyota reliability and durability, not just features, is part of what you're paying for. I think your implication that Toyota is deliberately undermining that for short-term profit is completely misguided; see Geese's review of the Corolla Hatchback for details on the quality engineering of this generation's 4-cylinder drivetrain. Toyota has no need to flush this model as long as it keeps selling this well; in fact, it's archrival Honda who's already published plans to deep-six the Accord. And if you want to call out an automaker who's famous for dishonoring its warranty, forget Toyota and look into Hyundai/Kia.
    1
  877. 1) I question the quietness claim. 2) You obviously didn't pay any attention to the main point of the entire 15-minute video, which was reliability/durability; the Buick's doesn't come close. 3) Independent testers also seriously criticized the price/value equation of the higher-trim LaCrosse models, especislly the top-trim Avenir. Maybe you can find a bargain used, but there aren't many of those right now.
    1
  878.  @bradh6185  Regarding the Buick's reliability, I'm sorry, but you're simply outright wrong. In 2017, Consumer Reports rated the LaCrosse's reliability Average, and in 2018 Worse Than Average, with a black mark for the drive system. (The 2019 didn't sell enough to be rated.) To clarify the availability comment, what I meant by "there aren't many of those right now" is bargain-priced used cars of ANY make. We do at least agree about the ersatz character of current Buicks, but then, the LaCrosse (and the Cadillac XTS) already were fundamentally Epsilon II Impalas (a pretty decent car) with Buick and Cadillac badges stuck on them.
    1
  879. The LC is awfully nice. In fact, part of what makes the ES interior nice is that they cribbed a lot of interior styling features, like the sexy brushed aluminum door handles, directly from the pricier LC and LS for the sake of family resemblance.
    1
  880. I'm a senior, and I didn't hear that. I heard harmless jokes that seniors like boring cars.
    1
  881. And it worked horribly, too. Thank heaven they ditched it in favor of a touchscreen for '23.
    1
  882. The 2019's engine is "much less reliable"? Document that, please.
    1
  883. Not quite the same.
    1
  884. And I'll bet you're not 5.7 inches.
    1
  885. And it was standard on the higher-end Avalons. Yeah, that decision has always been a bit of a head scratcher.
    1
  886. Andrew (and readers), do note that the ES changed over to an entirely new platform in 2019, with a slightly stiffer ride but much more responsive handling. So don't assume that a newer ES, while certainly no IS around corners, would be as uninvolving a driving experience as your current one, either.
    1
  887. From our ape predecessors. Duh.
    1
  888. Uh... no.
    1
  889. I just read a comment on a different ES review video. The poster was reaming out the host for being an egomaniac for being on camera ("we want to see the car, not you"). You can't please everybody.
    1
  890. Basically the same thing Savagegeese said. Two of the reviewers I respect.
    1
  891. Maybe if you're really, really, really short. Otherwise, I have a hard time believing Lexus built a car where you can't see straight ahead of you. And the power seat has a wide range of adjustment.
    1
  892. For 15+ years of ownership, you want Lexus over Genesis all day long.
    1
  893. I'd be interested to know what years they drive. The ES changed out nearly everything but the engine for 2019.
    1
  894. It should tell you several somethings. One thing it could tell you is what Savagegeese said: For those who want proven reliability, it's unexcelled by any other powerful engine you can buy.
    1
  895. You should be concerned. After fall 2024, it will be gone forever from the ES, and probably from all Toyota and Lexus sedans except the slow-selling and extremely expensive LS.
    1
  896. Yeah, like that hot-selling Crown humpback sedan.
    1
  897. "Weak engine"?!
    1
  898. You are aware this is a test of the completely overhauled 2023 and not the 2022, right?
    1
  899. Completely agree about warranties. This is what people don't grasp about Hyundai/Kia/Genesis. A warranty is simply a prepaid insurance policy on repairs. In the moment you're inconvenienced or stranded, it does you not one tiny shred of good whatsoever.
    1
  900. If you need more room, specifically a third row of seats.
    1
  901. In other words, build the GS. Which didn't sell.
    1
  902. Well, if you weren't impressed, that does it.
    1
  903.  @aperson5062  Helpful explanation. Good to hear a reminder that rear anti-roll bars bring the sacrifice of compromising side-to-side independence.
    1
  904. Yeah, but if all you care about is reliable, practical and easy to maintain, you can get into a sport-trim Camry for about $15k less.
    1
  905. So, what were his promised comments about other automotive YouTubers?
    1
  906. You're not the only one who concluded that. They can't give these away.
    1
  907. Next time, maybe practice sarcasm in a mirror before taking it public.
    1
  908. Lotta truth there. My compliments. Long post, but a whole lot of posts in this thread don't 10% justify being 10% as long.
    1
  909. Your Smart car experience, "They all charged me the same price," screams illegal price fixing.
    1
  910.  @qud3913  Depends on what you mean by "base model." The V6 costs no more, it just has a V6 with FWD instead of a Four with AWD.
    1
  911.  @qud3913  What "cheap tactic"? Lexus has successfully sold the FWD ES as a luxury car for 30 years. If you think a Tesla Model 3 embodies luxury and value better than a Lexus ES, you're the type who should buy one.
    1
  912.  @qud3913  You're pretty damn presumptuous. My last car was an AWD V6 luxury car. You don't know me. And you don't know Toyota either. "Falling behind"? As of early 2023, they're the world's #1 automaker, again.
    1
  913. You'll spend more -- Levinson is only a $1k upgrade on this car -- and you'll risk ham-fisted stereo shop techs making your interior rattle and squeak with no warranty coverage for the results.
    1
  914.  @Bay_Area_john  Did that cost include the head unit? Because according to a quick check of Crutchfield, which can retrofit most newer cars, they don't show any.
    1
  915.  @411sponge72  There are 8 or 10 sensors or cameras. Some on the nose, the rear view camera above the license plate on the trunklid edge, a camera under each side mirror. They're flat, dime- to quarter-sized, and easy peasy to clean—just a quick wipe with a terry rag. Never even needed unless they get mud or ice/snow on them.
    1
  916.  @411sponge72  Glad to (belatedly) help. Enjoy your holiday!
    1
  917.  @Pisianita  Hi! I don't want to pretend to be an expert, and I don't own a 300h. But the consensus of owners and testers is that with proper tires, you should be fine. "Proper tires" would either be specifically winter tires like Bridgestone Blizzak, or if you encounter snow but less ice, Michelin CrossClimate 2's. Good luck!
    1
  918. They didn't say that. What video did you watch?
    1
  919. Crown is a Toyota. They have to hold something back for the future luxury-branded version that'll be $5,000 more with the same bones underneath.
    1
  920. I don't like being boiled in oil either, and I have no intention of trying that out before venturing an opinion on it.
    1
  921. The Accord is a fine car, and it's a basically different one even though it has the same dimensions. It's more of a driver's car and less of a luxury car, firmer, more responsive, louder and not quite as bulletproof trouble-free as the Lexus or Toyota.
    1
  922. He's unlikely to do that because he's a Toyota specialist.
    1
  923. Both have strengths and weaknesses. FWD is better for foul weather traction and space efficiency to deliver a bigger interior in the same size body (which is why the ES is about as roomy as the much larger RWD/AWD Lexus LS).
    1
  924. Avalon's bigger, quieter and has nicer materials inside.
    1
  925. And they aren't exactly the same interior/exterior. Lexus's is more expensively made.
    1
  926. You're not accurate. The GS is unrelated to either the ES or the Avalon; in fact, that RWD-based chassis is closer to being a larger sibling of the Lexus IS 350.
    1
  927. I own an ES, and I got a late-model Camry SE as a service loaner. Honestly, it had a lot of the same electronic assist and safety features, just displayed smaller on the dash. It let more noise in, but not objectionably so. It had more hard surfaces, but it still was comfortable to sit in. It drove and handled well. And unlike every ES ever made, the rear seat dropped down so I could toss my bike in the back. You did well.
    1
  928. Whenever I read a comment like this one -- and they're regrettably a dime a dozen, just like their authors -- I wonder who you're trying to impress. One of the best-built, most reliable and durable cars made is "garbage lame"? "Concealed safety defects" for an IIHS Top Safety Pick? Did idiocy like this get you cheap feels at the prom?
    1
  929.  @Cakewalk.  I think you've answered my question.
    1
  930.  @Cakewalk.  I see your free hand didn't direct the screen to the part where I typed "IIHS Top Safety Pick." An actual fact, which puts me ahead of you 1-0.
    1
  931.  @kmat31  "Over the short term," agree. Savagegeese says as much. If you're going to lease, lease German. If you intend to buy and hold, this becomes much more compelling.
    1
  932.  @kannermw  No, because it's being phased out, the depreciation of the Avalon will probably take a blow. That's historically the fate of most discontinued models.
    1
  933.  @kannermw  To be blunt, your post is self-centered and arrogant. "I buy based primarily on quality, tangible value, and answer the question will I appreciate or regret my purchase decision." Yes, everybody buys based on whether they will appreciate or regret their purchase decision. Some people simply base that evaluation on different criteria than you do, and that does not make them "gullible" and inferior creatures. This is the usual Internet liquid courage where you came here just to wave your junk in strangers' faces, and this (very automotively educated, BTW) stranger does not appreciate it or respect you for it.
    1
  934.  @kannermw  "Current platform Avalon depreciation will not be an issue as a result of phase-out. Anyone who buys a used Toyota and in particular Avalon knows they buying a quality reliable car. Your opinion is not in any way supported within current market reality." No, sorry, but you're demonstrably wrong. The proof: The Avalon was discontinued because of slacking demand for NEW Avalons, which were being outsold roughly 3-2 by the ES despite Avalon's $5,000 lower price. Scarcity requires TWO conditions: low supply AND high demand. Is the Avalon a quality car that will resell well? Sure. Will its depreciation be somewhat disguised by today's market bubble? Absolutely. But will it continue to fetch thousands less used than a used ES? "Market reality" ALREADY has answered that question: Yes, it will remain less valued by the market than the ES, despite your obvious bitterness about that fact as an Avalon buyer with a grudge.
    1
  935.  @kannermw  "Apparently I hit a nerve"? Enough projection, Kanner. By your own testimony, you bought an unpopular and now-discontinued 2021 Avalon instead of an ES, and even before I replied, you've been making belligerent posts to others up and down this board accusing ES buyers of everything from "gullibility" to "addictive" behavior. Some of your comments (satisfaction ratings, ownerships costs) are true but irrelevant to this discussion. Others are flat-out embarrassing self-justification. Either sell the source of your inferiority feelings for its gloriously high resale value, or get counseling.
    1
  936.  @kmat31  "if you look up their passenger volume, the Camry and ES are more similar than the Avalon and the ES." This is untrue.
    1
  937.  @cincinnatikid47  Not necessarily. I've got a Kentucky one. Excellent build, lustrous paint, properly aligned trim, quality parts. My last car was Made in Japan, and this one is also very well made.
    1
  938.  @CraigC-h6b  Dukesim is right. It'll be redesigned in 2024 as a 2025 model. All trim levels of the ES will be changed. The basic chassis and styling will remain similar, but new hybrid powertrains will be added (similar to the new RX or Crown) and the V6 will die.
    1
  939.  @CraigC-h6b  Happy hunting!
    1
  940.  @naveenthemachine  I'm sorry, but when did Jack say it's "not terribly competitive"? I saw him say in the NX review that the NX fell short of feeling more special than its working-class bones, and that it fell short in that regard compared to the ES. Which Jack did you watch?
    1
  941.  @naveenthemachine  My bad. I got your posts confused with posts on Geese's review of the ES, where trolls similar to you said similar nasty things about the ES. My reply to your "toilet paper" comment stand as written, however.
    1
  942. Quality ratings on the RAV4's rolling out of the same plant have been just fine.
    1
  943.  @ab-nz2mm  Naveen has been doing this "Toyota sux" negative-fanboi thing under literally dozens of Toyota and Lexus videos for years. Ignore it.
    1
  944. Priced its competitors lately?
    1
  945. A guy in Dubai says they're everywhere there as airport Ubers, to the point that they have a stigma that turns off luxury buyers. The hybrid in particular is just so darn practical for people who carry back-seat passengers.
    1
  946. South Korea is a prosperous, industrialized country with well-paid auto workers. It is not China; get over your bigotry. In fact, that's part of the reason these cars are cheaped out -- the labor is NOT cheap, so the cost reduction has to come out of the car.
    1
  947. They added Android Auto for 2020.
    1
  948.  @aluisious  Worth mentioning here: The Lexus is built in Kentucky, but on a separate assembly line and paint shop by more rigorously trained workers and with higher standards for both parts and assembly.
    1
  949.  @mruncle4577  "Non-binary" in this context is an anti-gay slur. "Fake CVT with fake shifts" says it's programed to vary engine revs just a bit in an unconvincing attempt to sound and feel like a traditional torque-converter automatic transmission, which is more pleasant under any circumstances and presumably also more manly if you're really insecure.
    1
  950. If you want 90% of the virtues of the V6 ES for less money, you reall do owe it to yourself to check out a CPO Avalon. These cars are so reliable and durable, it really is the next thing to a new one. If I were in the market for what you're seeking, I'd trust a warrantied example with clean papers any day.
    1
  951. Depends on what you value. Most mechanical sophistication at a given price, yes. Best chance of a satisfying reliability and service experience, no.
    1
  952. No need to fear going on a long trip. If you don't trust the nav, just plug in your phone in the console and it will support Google Maps or Waze on the big screen.
    1
  953.  @willdehne1  Fair question, Wilfried. I'm not an expert, but here's what I can tell you: The ES supports "Android Auto." That feature lets you connect your phone to the USB socket in the left side of your car's console, and makes a software connection that lets you display and operate your phone's screen through the car's touchscreen. All you really need is a short connecting cable that has an 8-pin reversible USB connector at one end, and your phone's connector at the other (USB-C, maybe? I don't have a phone like yours so I don't know, but the store where you bought the phone will have it or be able to get it).Once you've done that, it should be easy to activate the Android Auto feature to make that work. Once you've done that, all you need to do is to have the app Google Maps or Waze on your phone to use. Waze (owned by Google) especially is very popular with highway drivers, because it updates its maps in real time with continuous reports from its thousands of users to reflect traffic jams and speed traps in its maps, using that info to tell you which route to your destination will be fastest. I have no experience with any of this, but people I know tell me it's easy once you're used to it. Best of luck and safe travels.
    1
  954.  @willdehne1  Fair question, Wilfried. I'm not an expert, but here's what I can tell you: The ES supports "Android Auto." That feature lets you connect your phone to the USB socket in the left side of your car's console, and makes a software connection that lets you display and operate your phone's screen through the car's touchscreen. All you really need is a short connecting cable that has an 8-pin reversible USB connector at one end, and your phone's connector at the other (USB-C, maybe? I don't have a phone like yours so I don't know, but the store where you bought the phone will have it or be able to get it).Once you've done that, it should be easy to activate the Android Auto feature to make that work. Once you've done that, all you need to do is to have the app Google Maps or Waze on your phone to use. Waze (owned by Google) especially is very popular with highway drivers, because it updates its maps in real time with continuous reports from its thousands of users to reflect traffic jams and speed traps in its maps, using that info to tell you which route to your destination will be fastest. I have no experience with any of this, but people I know tell me it's easy once you're used to it. Best of luck and safe travels.
    1
  955. For '22, you got your wish.
    1
  956. Except it was never like the A6 in price. I shopped both, and the A6 is considerably more expensive even if you settle for a small four-cylinder engine.
    1
  957. Better quality, more luxurious product, more luxurious dealer service.
    1
  958. And Subaru is selling really well.
    1
  959. Not a good car for carrying a bike. Its sister car the Avalon is better because you can mount a rear hitch for it, or drop the back seats and load the bikes in (minus the front wheels).
    1
  960. Wrong. One huge difference: the '22 has a touchscreen so you don't have to deal with that damn touchpad anymore.
    1
  961. You shouldn't have to park the car to use the controls. And you mean "moot."
    1
  962. And you would have fine, reliable transportation at a much lower price. However, you would not enjoy the same levels of quietness, smoothness, luxury materials, standard or optional equipment, or dealer service. Or you could ride a bicycle and save money on both purchase price and gas.
    1
  963. Soft suspension and new trick shocks (except on the F Sport Handling version, which is why they complained about its ride).
    1
  964. My condolences. You won't have the last laugh.
    1
  965. What's with the verbal abuse? 20-minute review, and this is all you have to say about it? Got anger issues?
    1
  966. True, they don't offer it with the V6 for a reason. But the reason is cost, not driving dynamics. It'd drive better with it, and not just when you're flooring it but every time you turn a corner.
    1
  967. People think that automotive stylists suddenly lost all their talent, but what really happened is that new standards for pedestrian safety force carmakers to make all new cars with a collapsible and upright nose, and the stylists are stuck with the job of trying to disguise it.
    1
  968. The GS is better. But it also cost at least $10,000 more, and people weren't willing to pay it. It died because in the next class up from the ES, people lease the flavor of the week and they went German.
    1
  969. I hope they're impactful on the industry.
    1
  970. Not in person, it doesn't. The materials are fabulous.
    1
  971.  @thecriticalthinkeroutsidet4947  As we now know, the Avalon's increase in sales unfortunately didn't continue, and neither did the Avalon.
    1
  972. Cars aren't slow off the line because they have FWD, they're slow because they lack torque (unless you mean they're slow off the line because they're breaking the tires loose, but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying).
    1
  973. And the Hyundai Grandeur sedan is the kind of car one's retired Korean dad would buy.
    1
  974. There are three different seats available on ES, and none of them comes close to the wonderful seats of the LS 430. Some customers, including me, have complained that all of them are too thinly padded.
    1
  975. Maybe as value for money. But in absolute terms, it's hard to believe that the ES is worse when it cost several thousand more and yet outsold the Avalon (which was available at more dealers nationwide) and drove it into extinction.
    1
  976. And maybe Stellantis. But why are we talking about those other makers here?
    1
  977.  @andeleputo89  Your comment not only drips with condescending Internet superiority, it's inaccurate. This car is selling very poorly, including among previous Lexus owners.
    1
  978.  @jomo2483  Hell, it'll be a smudge gallery inside 20 hours.
    1
  979. Considering that this reviewer's previous review of this car was titled "Take it to the Grave," I think he's been quite up front about his admiration of its reliabiliity.
    1
  980. I'm GLAD he takes the attitude he does. If he did what you want, he'd do a favor to the carmaker. The way he does it instead, he does a service to us viewers. What would we learn if he felt obligated to praise every car he reviewed?
    1
  981.  @bluwng  The clear implication of your comment that "People let you review cars. You are such a bitch" is that he should be grateful that he was loaned a test car, and therefore should praise it. If that's not what your comment meant, you tell me: What else DID it mean? You're either lying or stupid. Which is it?
    1
  982. Some agree, but it is missing for a reason. For 30 years, all ES's have replaced the folding seatbacks with an extra trapezoid-shaped structural brace. Lexus believes luxury buyers place a higher priority on the added structural rigidity than on the cargo versatility. They may be wrong, but they are consistent.
    1
  983.  @pselden2103  It's all good, thanks. I can't source it, but I remember reading it over a period of years. Pretty sure it was for perceived body tightness rather than crash safety, since of course Toyota wasn't going to market Camrys and then Avalons with their drop-down seats and no brace that didn't meet the regulations. It's signiificant to note that until about 2000 when the IS came out, the ES was expected to be a rival to BMW in handling as well as ride, so it was important then for that reason too to be stiffer.
    1
  984. If you're right, put that knowledge to work for yourself by waiting 3 years.
    1
  985.  @maga6319  The G80's four is a Hyundai four. Research further, boy.
    1
  986.  @maga6319  You sound like you not too bright. At least Toyotas will still be there when their owners come back to where they were parked. Without an engine full of metal shavings, even. Imagine that.
    1
  987. What are you talking about? The similarly priced ES vastly outsells the IS and has for years.
    1
  988. As I understand it, space. They might be able to do e-AWD or AWD with a turbo Four, but not with the V6. My strong suspicion is that they'll do all of that in the next gen, probably for 2024. But I'll miss the naturally aspirated V6.
    1
  989. Yes, the people building undesirable Lightning trucks will lose their jobs. But people will gain jobs who build the other vehicles that people choose instead. The challenge for management is to make sure those workers are Americans. The problem is, recent history suggests that management and the shareholders they serve don't even care.
    1
  990. On a Toyota with a field-tested drivetrain? Want to make a friendly wager on that?
    1
  991. The extreme windshield slope is actually less aerodynamic. They did it for style to sell the car, period. Of course, you can say the same thing 10 times over about the 5-foot-tall upright wall that's the grille of a Silverado, and we're not talking about that.
    1
  992. Don't do that, please. You're endangering others.
    1
  993. They've been doing it for 30 years. They evidently believe that luxury buyers value solidity and handling more than cargo versatility, so they've always given the Camry and Avalon folding rear seats while giving the ES a stiffening structural brace behind the rear seatback instead. One might agree or disagree with them, but at least they've been consistent.
    1
  994.  @combinedeffects4799  No, sorry if I was unclear. The stiffening isn't done for safety reasons. It's done to improve ride, handling agility and freedom from rattles and squeaks.
    1
  995. The government?!
    1
  996. Yeah, I think you would. The big differences in everyday driving are that you don't have to be sensitive to the surface when you put the spurs to it, and the RWD/AWD car sticks to the intended line in corners while the ES runs wide.
    1
  997. Guilty as charged! :.D
    1
  998.  @hamsterama  Yes, it was.
    1
  999.  @hamsterama  Alas. I think the Avalon was a very good niche product that fell victim to the mass exodus into SUVs. Older buyers wanted the commanding seating position, easy entry/exit and the adventurous image, even though most of them were neither carrying large cargo nor venturing off the road. So now Toyota is trying to woo them with a needlessly tall Crown sedan with silly SUV-like plastic cladding. Will it work? I doubt it, but Toyota probably figures they still have the Highlander, Venza and RX for them even if it doesn't.
    1
  1000.  @hamsterama  Interesting tidbit about the Camry's size. Thanks for sharing it. Although I will say I was surprised the first time I checked out the current Camry to find that I thought it a little squeezy in the back. Overall, completely agree about SUVs and minivans. For most 3-row buyers a minivan would make more sense, but I guess they just can't bring themselves to feel that (figuratively) square. Everyone wants to fantasize they're on a safari to the mall, or something.
    1
  1001. Why are you criticizing the engine because your transmission failed?
    1
  1002.  @spikey01234  That's relative. Yes, I've heard the oil leak complaints. But compared to cars at large, the Consumer Reports reliability survey rates it excellent.
    1
  1003. Why was that?
    1
  1004. True, and they demanded premium fuel as well.
    1
  1005.  @curtgomes  My hat is off to you. That installer's comments made it sound like the installation requires not just talent, but courage and patience with glitches.
    1
  1006.  @curtgomes  Great job, and extra points for guts. You give hope to all the less adventurous among us. Enjoy your terrific installation!
    1
  1007. In this era, that kind of price drop isn't going to happen.
    1
  1008. I hear you about overpriced, but I'd be careful of generalizing about the current crop of drivetrains. The trucks, yes, avoid those. The old-school Dynamic Force 4 without turbo, and the non-turbo hybrids, I think are still as solid as you remember.
    1
  1009. No. A 3.5 V6 making 301-302 hp, or a 4-cylinder hybrid making 215 hp.
    1
  1010. Thank you for your considered automotive judgment, sir.
    1
  1011. Except it turns out it doesn't have more space. It's just tall.
    1
  1012. Ouch!
    1
  1013.  @blossoms978  The LS hasn't been cut AFAIK, but sometime soon it almost certainly wil be. The death of sedans and the fatally flawed design of this generation have conspired to kill its sales to the point where they can't justify the development and tooling costs anymore.
    1
  1014. Yeah, as with the Crown sedan, the lack of a hatchback is utterly pointless. Both cars manage to combine the worst features of a crossover—ungainly height, mileage and handling losses that go with it—without the cargo versatility. The Crown Signia makes more sense than either of them.
    1
  1015.  @Jimster481  Now, now. I've seen plenty of rich people acting as foolish as anyone can.
    1
  1016. No, it really isn't. You're better off with an TLX, 3 Series or G70.
    1
  1017. Very possible. Many observers also speculate it may have some of the same drivetrains as the new Toyota Crown, probably including a turbo four with electric AWD. That would cure the torque steer issue, at least.
    1
  1018. Agree there's a lot of black in there. All but one interior color scheme uses it, which makes me suspect they were reducing the number of parts variations to cut costs.
    1
  1019. I think you might be interested in a nice Lexus RX.
    1
  1020. Technically yes. But the LS, while much bigger on the outside, has such terrible space utilization that the ES has nearly the same size interior. The old LS was much bigger inside.
    1
  1021. Yes. A rudimentary version for free, and a more advanced feature by subscription.
    1
  1022. Sadly, not likely except maybe as an EV.
    1
  1023. @@japanwatchconnection I agree that Lexus ruined the LS. Otherwise, I think your entire post is ludicrous. "Every brand is reliable now"? Ask the Hyundai/Kia owners with shavings seizing their engines. Ask the Hyundai/Kia owners whose ABS modules burned their house down. Ask the Consumer Reports survey tabulators who say that even the more reliable of the German and Korean cars start puking up their guts at 6-7 years. "The South Koreans are eating their lunch"? If so, they bought it at the Toyota store down the street, because Toyota remains the world's #! best selling automaker. Were they even more superior 30 years ago? Arguably. Is Toyota still on top today? Demonstrably.
    1
  1024. "Refusal to enforce speed limits?" Obviously you haven't heard about corrupt traffic enforcement corporations like Redflex who've bribed their way into issuing millions of nuisance tickets nationwide that judges refuse to throw out, then splitting the take with the government officials who approved them. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr/former-redflex-ceo-sentenced-30-months-corruption-awarding-chicago-s-red-light-camera
    1
  1025. Then you should get a Camry. It's a reliable, fine car that costs less. Some of us see extra value in the ES, and for us they build that too.
    1
  1026. You're wrong. The entertainment system is changed dramatically because the screen has been moved 4 inches closer to the driver and turned into a touchscreen, finally addressing what every reviewer has reamed this car for the past 3 years.
    1
  1027. Yeah, we already were. But the average new car is already going for over 50.
    1
  1028.  @TeslaRoadtrips  Mark has been very forthright about the fact that the economic margins of making a living on YouTube videos are so razor-thin that his and Jack's 80-hour weeks don't give them time to chase down cars whose makers don't cooperate (Lotus, for one).
    1
  1029. I'm another with a Kentucky Lexus, a '22. Veeeery nice fit and finish, very good paint. Reliability stats are very good as well. There's a very detailed video elsewhere on YouTube that details how the Kentucky workers are the cream of that factory's workforce and are then trained in the same way Japanese Lexus workers are. I wouldn't worry about it.
    1
  1030. There's a reason for that.
    1
  1031. To lease, yes. To buy, Lexus all day.
    1
  1032. They have no choice. Everybody's ditching V8s and now V6s because of tightening fuel economy and emissions regulations. Check the Germans' lineups. You pay dearly for a Six now.
    1
  1033.  @colechapman6976  Good point.
    1
  1034. They need cars too.
    1
  1035.  @Caldwell1234  Right. Here's Lexus's own demonstration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S94_6b6Gj-o
    1
  1036. I remember about 20 years ago, when the heart of the market was Camry & Accord, GM made a Malibu that was such a knockoff they even put the Chevy bow tie inside an oval swirl to look Asian. The ads promised "The car you knew America could build." Unfortunately, time proved them correct. Us older folks have seen this show before.
    1
  1037. Yes, they do. But boy, do they light up the road.
    1
  1038.  @mohammadabdullahkhan360  I like 'em, both to look at and to see with.
    1
  1039. You're probably stuck with it. Contrary to popular belief, it's not because all the stylists have suddenly lost their marbles. It's to disguise the big, flat, deformably soft front ends now required to pass recently toughened safety regulations for the safety of pedestrians in a low-speed crash.
    1
  1040. He's somewhere northwest of Chicago. McHenry County, I think.
    1
  1041. Really, it's the buyers (or lack of them) who made the GS irrelevant. If we were buying 'em, they'd still be making 'em...
    1
  1042. Maybe not, but you'll have to move yourself and your stuff somehow, and I don't know of any way that's free.
    1
  1043.  @kimle2796  That's true.
    1
  1044. Damn, now you tell me. Guess I better sell.
    1
  1045. He mentions the FWD problem indirectly when he says "Don't buy it because it's exciting to drive. It's a good car, but it isn't exciting. Don't buy it unless you're buying it for its reliability."
    1
  1046. Agree, and nearly all new cars have them. I think there's only two ways to meet the newly toughened safety standards: make 'em that way, or put a very costly mechanism in them. Naturally, almost nobody has chosen the latter.
    1
  1047. I call bullsh!t. You didn't refrain from buying this car because it's "only" 6-1/2 seconds to 60. Nothing else with this room and comfort at this price goes faster, except a disposable Chrysler. You didn't buy this car because you're an Internet he-man who didn't buy anything this expensive at all.
    1
  1048. Depends on how you define "America," doesn't it?
    1
  1049. For all practical purposes, both are lifetime cars, among the best-built and most durable you can buy.
    1
  1050. Don't tell that to Lupton Pittman up above from April 2023 in the comments. He'll call you reckless and un-typical.
    1
  1051.  @cadriver2570  Oh, it's easy to do. Better tires than OEM don't eliminate the problem, but they help. Both brands of OEM tire are MPG specials, and their traction off the line is awful.
    1
  1052. Except the raised roof probably doesn't allow for extra head clearance. They did it to allow for the added height of the underfloor EV batteries. And even without them, the apparently related Crown sedan has added height but not any added headroom.
    1
  1053. Huh?
    1
  1054. The GS had everything you want, and nobody bought it. They sell 40,000 of these a year in the US alone.
    1
  1055. I get it. But if the ES was an V6 with AWD, it'd be the costlier GS, and nobody else bought it.
    1
  1056. You can uncross them. They're very well built.
    1
  1057. They don't really have a choice. New regulations force them to make cars less harmful if you hit a pedestrian, so the front has to be a flat collapsible surface. That leave the stylists with the task of trying to disguise a big flat plastic face.
    1
  1058.  @GoAmateurRadio  I don't know, and in a quick search, I was unable to find it. I'm sorry I can't be of more help.
    1
  1059. Yeah, this guy was so stupid that the car he criticized as out of date went out of production less than 6 months later. What does he know, anyway?
    1
  1060.  @aprtur  Great answer. You've done all you could here. Some people seem to approach questoins like this not as practical obstacles to be negotiated, but as their opportunity to take a valiant last stand against something that gives them some sort of spiritual offense. I hope for his own sake that Olhous isn't one of those people.
    1
  1061. Such an embarrassing comment, and you think you're funny!
    1
  1062. Depends. How much Dynamat and semi-aniline leather replacement upholstery do you have?
    1
  1063. On dry roads, turning off traction control actually give you better performance off the line, because the electronic nannies don't shut the power down the moment the wheels start slipping.
    1
  1064. What's not right, as usual, is the dealership. They don't all do it.
    1
  1065. He obviously wasn't alone. This car got killed 5 months after he reviewed it for poor U.S. sales.
    1
  1066. I didn't see that Tacoma review, but he's sure not failing now. Agree.
    1
  1067. But costlier to build.
    1
  1068. They don't really have a choice. Not making a 3-row right now is leaving money on the table for GM and Kia. The 4-cyl hybrid is a must for emissions regulations. And the price is competitive.
    1
  1069. The old Infiniti G did that too.
    1
  1070. The bumper regulations have more to do with pedestrian safety than prevention of damage to the car. For that reason, the nose and grille are all collapsible plastic.
    1
  1071.  @donaldj.trumpfromthetrench8849  An affordable price on the GS would've made the ES obsolete, but that's the whole point: The efficiencies of using components from a volume car let the ES deliver more car per dollar than any competitor. AWD would drive the price up.
    1
  1072.  @danielmelendez9943  Agree, SH-AWD has long been best in class. It helps the car drive better in all conditions, not just in the snow, disguising front-heavy weight bias.
    1
  1073. How do you like it?
    1
  1074.  @Gemini530  Me too!
    1
  1075. Joke if you will, but the Avalon came standard with a 301-horsepower V6 to the finish.
    1
  1076.  @timbrown9731  Unfortunately, you appear to be 100% correct. They just dropped it from the Lexus RX, and there's virtually universal agreement that they'll drop it in '24 or '25 on the next-gen Camry and ES.
    1
  1077. Thank you kindly for enlightening the rest of us.
    1
  1078. And I would have bought an Acura SUV with firmer suspension except I wanted a Lexus, a sedan body, and a softer suspension, and I thought it was better.
    1
  1079. Sorry, only 8 track is available.
    1
  1080. To viewers like me, Jack has become an integral part of the channel. If by "OG" you mean Turbowski, I liked him but he ultimately opted out while Jack puts blood, sweat and tears into this project. I like the cast exactly as it is.
    1
  1081. Sorry, what does "RF" stand for?
    1
  1082.  @dvuemedia  Thanks. Anti-theft tip taken.
    1
  1083. Thanks for the tips, especially the one about that incredibly annoying middle rear seat alarm. Does disabling the RF also disable you from button-free unlocking of the car when you open the handle?
    1
  1084. Don't worry about that. I just bought one and it's beautifully built; no rattles or squeaks, nearly perfect trim alignment, lustrous paint. The Kentucky workers are trained by Japanese to the Japanese standard. And the car still scores well in Consumer Reports reliability surveys.
    1
  1085. if they were incredibly typical, there'd be no need to watch them.
    1
  1086.  @wma6019  You know, sometimes just admitting you've made an obvious factual mistake can be a good look. Chicks dig humble guys.
    1
  1087.  @wma6019  That's just as well, since one of them is in fact discontinued.
    1
  1088. @ Zach, I see you wrote personally abusive posts to 3 different people who called out that reliable $10 used cars are rare. I'm sure they're all wrong and stupid, and you alone are right. P.S. A friend and I often team up to shop for used cars for our friends. We've shopped hundreds of cars, and we didn't find the situation you claim we should.
    1
  1089. The rear seat sits one inch higher to make room for the battery, improving thigh support but reducing headroom. Also, the 300h does not offer the option of the panoramic sunroof, although Lexus designed that feature so there's almost no headroom difference anyway. No other dimensional differences between the two.
    1
  1090. No car is 100% efficient in getting all its power from the crank to the wheels. There are mechanical and frictional losses in the transmission and at every point in the powertrain.
    1
  1091. Is, except on the Luxury and Ultra Luxury trim levels. Unfortunately, Mercedes and BMW do it too.
    1
  1092. I think you're right. It's a very compelling package for the price, IF you don't have kids.
    1
  1093. So I see you're a vulgar, bigoted jerk who's down to killing time by watching YouTube content he doesn't even like. P.S. I happen to be straight, but if I were gay, you wouldn't be my type -- I don't go for insecure limp guys.
    1
  1094. Take a trip with me into the Theater of the Mind. You can get a Crown Signia that's similar in every way to the one featured in this test, except... in different colors? Some of them, you might even like better.
    1
  1095. That's why Mazda offers the CX-50 for buyers who want a larger back seat and cargo area. Of course, it will also cost more.
    1
  1096.  @tuckerhiggins4336  "Only if you live in the POS rust belt" -- which, no matter what you "think" of it, tens of millions do. Only someone like you would think that doesn't count.
    1
  1097. Q: How do you say you don't know what the Green New Deal is without saying it?
    1
  1098. Yeah, it's sad that this will be the last gas LS. Rumor has it Akio Toyoda personally screwed up this one, undecided between its luxury heritage and a diluted Panamera.
    1
  1099. Thank you for this thoughtful contribution to the discussion.
    1
  1100.  @naveenthemachine  Who knew? You've only posted that comment about 10 times. Didn't you say elsewhere that you own a Camry XSE V6? Is that why you've got this 4-hour problem against Lexus for which you have to see your doctor?
    1
  1101. Wow, did that change after the pandemic started. They remain scarce and near MSRP to this day.
    1
  1102.  @ONI1013.  Yes. Alas.
    1
  1103. Then I recommend you don't ever do so.
    1
  1104. Unfortunately, the car you lust after doesn't exist. The F Sport is available only with "NuLuxe" vinyl upholstery.
    1
  1105. Then presumably you'd want to lease.
    1
  1106.  @naarealy  Sounds like no EV really fits your use case ideally anyway.
    1
  1107. Respectfully, speaking as a satisfied V6 owner, I must say this post misses some vital facts. Toyota has no choice but to ditch the V6 because of tightening emissions and MPG regulations. As for greed and planned obsolescence, Toyota/Lexus warranties the hybrid battery for 8 years/100,000 miles, and most go much farther. Finally, I resent your personal insinuation that Car Care Guy lacks either knowledge or integrity with your diss that he "drank the Kool-Aid" by buying a hybrid himself. There's every evidence to me that he knows the mechanical integrity of the Toyota hybrid system at least as well as YouTube poster Luke Walker does. Unless, of course, you care to prove me wrong by laying out Toyota mechanic credentials that are superior to Car Care Nut's.
    1
  1108. Well, then. No ES for you.
    1
  1109. Because the turbo is an upgrade engine even in the pricier CR-V.
    1
  1110. Who's been asking for a lifted Prius? When they tried a Prius with a roomier wagon raised roofline in 2012, it limped along for a few years and got cancelled because of low sales.
    1
  1111. Are you in Canada, or a backwater where the dealers gouge $5,000 more than anywhere else? Because if it's neither of the above, this post sure sounds a lot like rationalizing.
    1
  1112.  @rosgoncharuk2403  I did. I own a '22 Ultra Luxury. I ordered, waited 7 months, and paid sticker minus $300. Next.
    1
  1113.  @rosgoncharuk2403  I don't talk that stuff online, but if you look up the MSRP of a loaded ES UL, you'll know. BTW, the G80 is a beautiful car -- definitely looks more luxurious and expensive than the ES. It's just that I'm a buy-and-hold guy, not a lease person, and I didn't trust the durability.
    1
  1114.  @rosgoncharuk2403  In the context of its Camry origins, that price criticism is fair. In the context of the alternatives north of it, I ended up viewing it as the value choice. I also had options forced on me, including the $500 panoramic sunroof I'd firmly insisted I did not want. When the factory would not remove it from the build order, the dealer graciously stepped forward and said I would not be forced to pay for it. The credit-card shaped extra key for wallet use was a $100 trinket I'd never have chosen, but I've since come to like it. I actually wanted the triple-beam LED headlights despite their stiff $1,500 tariff, and no regrets on that one: They practically make stop signs burst into flames.
    1
  1115. You're right insofar as Lexus is grab-bagging to attack the problem that the average age of ES buyers keeps going up. .But It's also that since Lexus dropped the sportier GS, adding a slightly revised sporty version of the ES was a cheaper way to hang onto at least some of those buyers.
    1
  1116. Glad you emerged with your health. Sounds like your NX did its job.
    1
  1117. Nope. See Savagegeese's 2023 review "The Last and Best Upgrades." The F Sport Handling version stiffens the suspenders, and all it does is degrade the ride without turning the car into a corner carver.
    1
  1118. Glad you're enjoying your ES. It should be mentioned that the 2016 was on a completely different chassis than the 2019 and newer ES's. Most reviewers say the newer car rides a little more firmly but handles better.
    1
  1119. Volvo is famous for its excellent seats, but I find my ES Luxury has a firm seat with well-located 4-way lumber and thigh extender is very adjustable and quite supportive. You might want to try it.
    1
  1120. That's the appeal of Lexus, right there. That and the wonderful customer service that makes you feel like they appreciated your outlay.
    1
  1121. Not just moderately terrible? 🙂
    1
  1122.  @bigcjm  Agree, big. Some people like to use less gas just on principle, too. Canada On Fire is a thing.
    1
  1123. That, and the fact that the 3.7 refresh had the beak grille and was so ugly you wanted to gouge your eyes out rather than behold it.
    1
  1124.  @interstate366  Right. Europe's Accord was sold in loaded form in the States as the smaller TSX. The larger stateside Accord was modified and powered up into the American-designed TL.
    1
  1125. Uh, that makes you an SUV guy.
    1
  1126. Now you'd want an IS.
    1
  1127. @Ralph B He did write about her in the present tense.
    1
  1128.  @ThrottleHouse  This is awesome.
    1
  1129. Yes, and without the room to show for it. It's, pardon the pun, a big reason for its sales failure.
    1
  1130. Because not everybody wants this much size or needs 3 rows?
    1
  1131.  @ShaiyanHossain  In my head, I don't even count the "3 row" vehicles with a glovebox-sized third seat as 3 rows. Most owners probably just keep it folded down anyway.
    1
  1132. You're "the consumer." The "target audience."
    1
  1133. Lexus/Toyota doesn't really have a choice. Tightening emissions regulations are pushing the bigger-displacement engines to the margins from all automakers.
    1
  1134.  @christhornycroft3686  I'm sorry you've had to go through that.
    1
  1135.  @chrislim7976  I completely disagree. 20 years ago BMW's entire business model was The Ultimate Driving Machine. Now they're a numb SUV-dominated lineup of badge-whore luxury cars.
    1
  1136. This confirms your inability to believe that.
    1
  1137. What I can't understand is why you still can't get the opposite: leather seats with a handling suspension. You certainly can get that combination from every German competitor.
    1
  1138. This is a tired take I've seen at least 3 times in this thread. Consumers, not that gawddamn guvmint, chose the 1.5 over the 2.0 with a 90%+ take rate. And consumers drained sedan R&D by swinging en masse to SUVs whether they made sense for their needs or not.
    1
  1139.  @markl6122  Apparently because Amazon is killing off Alexa support for cars.
    1
  1140.  @kissmylipsb  Mid or upper $40's.
    1
  1141.  @leangroundbeef2322  Most say the IS is much smaller inside, quiet and smooth-riding but less so, handles much better although it's certainly no sports car.
    1
  1142. Well bought!
    1
  1143. Uh, it's made from petroleum?
    1
  1144. Almost.
    1
  1145.  @ishaansaral502  Ishaan, I've been hearing for 20 years now that Hyundai has outgrown its quality and durability problems. Some of the faulty engine claims are for recent vehicles, including my nephew's Soul that's still well under warranty. South Korean auto workers are about as well paid as Americans, so the lower cost doesn't come from cheap labor -- it comes out of the car. Geese detailed some of that. But some of it isn't visible until the car ages, with stuff like loose bodies and scratchable plastics.
    1
  1146.  @jeffgendron1959  Still listening to Elon's fantasies about cutting-edge Tesla technologies, huh? Lemme tell you the one about the time he proposed a high-speed commuter rail system to the Chicago city government. Boiled down, it was Tesla cars driving through an underground tunnel. No, really. He's got a million of 'em....
    1
  1147. I'd say that about the ES 350 F Sport.
    1
  1148. This does sell the LS short.
    1
  1149. It's inconvenient, but every ES has been like this for 30 years.
    1
  1150. You are factually incorrect, unfortunately. Neither the Lacrosse (a rebranded Epsilon II Chevy Impala) nor the Regal (a rebranded German Opel insignia) came anywhere close to the long-term reliability and durability of comparable Lexus models. Not according to Consumer Reports, nor according to Dashboard Light.
    1
  1151.  @MeynMotorGroup  Great, honest answer.
    1
  1152.  @rochanishamanna7422  What did you get, and how do you like it?
    1
  1153. What would that be?
    1
  1154. It is fun. It's stupid quick on the highway.
    1
  1155. I'm sure you're telling the truth that you see 0 reasons to get this over a Camry. However, about 40,000 Americans each year see it differently than you do, which is why both cars still exist.
    1
  1156. You have it kinda backwards: They didn't take a luxury sedan and degrade it with FWD. They took an FWD family sedan and upgraded it with various luxury features. Does it match the road behavior of dedicated luxury chassis? No. Does it leverage the cost savings of using humble family-sedan bones to delivery great value and reliability compared to dedicated luxury cars? Yes, and that's why it's always sold well.
    1
  1157. Depends on what you're looking for. If you have much more money and want a two-door GT cruiser, Savagegeese Mark owned and loved an LC500.
    1
  1158.  @SavetheWater1  Sorry, not sure what a 35H is. Did you mean an RX or NX 350h?
    1
  1159.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, that's crap. Readers deserve to know you're a juvenile Camry owner who's posted essentially this same comment 100 times on other ES threads, plus other falsehoods like "Lexus is in financial trouble" and "Genesis is just as reliable." Stop it.
    1
  1160. "When really it's a slightly lower class (than luxury)." But that was the problem with the Avenir: It was priced against real luxury cars. He's not the only one who said it. Car and Driver said it too.
    1
  1161.  @nintendork900  I agree, 900. And an even bigger problem is that those higher-priced products aren't sufficiently better to convince people they're worth the money. Cadillac's sedans and midsize SUVs have this problem big-time. You can't sell cars as "luxury" when reviewers are comparing the interior to a hard-plastic-lined Malibu.
    1
  1162.  @Eldaino999  I wouldn't make that wager for a second. That 1.5T is used in tons of Hondas and Acuras, but only in the last few years. It hasn't passed the test of time, and there are serious questions whether it will.
    1
  1163.  @Eldaino999  But a major issue already HAS reared its head. Run a search on "Honda 1.5 oil dilution."
    1
  1164. Then you'll want to not buy one. But thank you for contributing your very informative post.
    1
  1165. I have a suspicion that the LS was a test mule because Toyota/Lexus knew the V8 would have to go away because of emissions regulations, and they wanted to debug its replacement engine on a low-volume model before they used it in a zillion Tundras.
    1
  1166.  @philhenderson3516  Ouch. I'd seen just the sketchiest mentions of this. I've also heard it reported that this engine is much more complex to repair than the venerable old V6. What's the nature of the problems?
    1
  1167.  @philhenderson3516  Wow. Thanks for sharing that. Found a post on a Tundra message board saying a dealer technician was told the problem was a batch of improperly cleaned blocks at the factory that had internal shavings, supposedly fixed before the '24's.
    1
  1168. I think the conventional wisdom is that the last years are the best ones. 2013 would be in that range.
    1
  1169.  @Daytripper58  I'm glad you've had good luck, but they never fully fixed the automatic. They knew in advance the dry-clutch was flawed, and there's an internal memo to prove it.
    1
  1170. Much as we enthusiasts hate the concept, though, that's most people without much money who have to get somewhere. And today, that's most Americans.
    1
  1171. Whenever I disagree with someone, I immediately criticize their integrity. How about you?
    1
  1172. None I know of. Do you mean the lump in the floor like the IS 350 AWD?
    1
  1173. Nope. Didn't. Many other models went through the same chip shortages and yet were not discontiued.
    1
  1174. Well, Lexus was in the name of the review. And history proved him right: Lexus has passed the test of time since this video, and the LaCrosse did not. And while the ES may be an overpriced Camry, that proved more appealing to buyers than an equally ovepriced Impala.
    1
  1175. In all honesty, I thought the touchpad was awful no matter how much you coached me on it. I waited to buy until 2022 when I could bypass it via touchscreen. But yes, the Lexus dealership experience really is superior.
    1
  1176. I see it's been a while since you posted, so sorry if this is too late to be useful to you. But... Mercedes E Class: Better handling, nicer inside. Lexus ES: Lower price, better reliabillity.
    1
  1177. This is mailed-in lazy criticism. Yes, it's on a Camry platform, but the car is upgraded in numerous functional ways including room, ride, quietness, style and features. Second, even fully loaded it's 10% less than the price you stated. Third, Savagegeese for one disagrees 100% with your interior style critique.
    1
  1178. Checked your meds?
    1
  1179. So I gather you watched last year's review "Take it to the Grave." :.D
    1
  1180.  @Andrew-zx9wx  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0R-pCSOjpg
    1
  1181. Reviewing a car that's about to be discontinued isn't a good investment of time for a car reviewer.
    1
  1182. Yes, it has a jack and a compact spare.
    1
  1183. No. Corollas will prove more durable.
    1
  1184. My, what a clever and original comment this is. And the imaginative use of those unique emojis sparkles with even more creativity.
    1
  1185. No, not enough said. I know this is a year-old comment, but I see this misconception all the time. Warranty does not equal reliability. It's just an insurance policy on repairs whose cost is baked into the MSRP. Hyundai is notorious for not honoring the warranty, and even aside from that, the cars are not scoring Japanese-good in reliability surveys. Korean auto workers are actually pretty well paid, and I've talked with mechanics who say Hyundai/Kia's price advantage comes from cheaping out where it doesn't show, much like a Samsung or LG appliance.
    1
  1186.  @mlcrushingms  Yes, I see what you did there: You illustrated the marketing gimmick aspect of Hyundai's warranty. Reassurance=Sales.
    1
  1187.  @DSRQ1  So lemme get this straight: Your complaint about this car is that unlike most of its direct rivals, it DOES provide physical buttons, but you're chapped off that you have to look at them?!
    1
  1188.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, this is the same evidence-free contention you've made over and over on various Lexus threads for months. Infiniti has never come close to Lexus in sales, profitability, product quality or brand recognition. Admit that this claim of yours is a stupid, unprovable lie.
    1
  1189.  @DSRQ1  Douglas, I trust you're just playing dumb here. They said THEY got 34 mph as two enthusiast road testers flogging the car. The EPA estimate is 44 mpg combined.
    1
  1190.  @DSRQ1  "It'll be around only a year or two" is not a very courageous prediction, since everybody knows the entire ES lineup will be redone in 1-2 years with a revised set of powertrains -- the whole point of this video. Duh.
    1
  1191.  @DSRQ1  "I get it it, you are a Toyota fan boi who thinks he knows the car business." No, I'm a car enthusiast who's been closely observing the industry at multiple levels for 50 years. I'm a Toyota admirer for that reason. There's a difference. P.S.: It takes a smarter person than you to have the right to order me to "go away" in a public forum that accepts the likes of you.
    1
  1192.  @DSRQ1  As a presumably smart guy, glad you finally figured out you can't eject people from a public forum and chose to excuse yourself instead. P.S. I hung out in dealerships as a child longer ago than you did. Yours still isn't bigger.
    1
  1193. "At this price Lexus is competing against the Genesis G80." Inaccuate. Comparably equipped with V6, the G80 costs about $10,000 more.
    1
  1194. That argument has raged for over 25 years, and can still be seen in this comments section. In the end, the Avalon died from poor sales and the ES lived, so I guess more people decided the answer was yes.
    1
  1195. Wow, lotsa contempt for people with low incomes here.
    1
  1196. $40k base, $54k loaded.
    1
  1197. He quit a couple years ago.
    1
  1198. My better half owns a 3rd gen (2010-2015), and I've rented a 2nd gen (thru 2009). I haven't ridden in anything newer, but the gen starting in 2016 was said to be dramatically more modern in both ride and handling.
    1
  1199. Me too, on all counts.
    1
  1200. If you bought a Kia Stinger for its warranty, you are not in the target maket for a Lexus ES. And that warranty won't prevent the Stinger from developing creaks, rattles, squeaks, nor prevent its plastics from looking tired as the car ages. The ES doesn't have a pricing problem, it has a $10,000 price advantage over its same-size luxury competitors from MB, BMW, Audi and Genesis
    1
  1201. Blame the non-buyers. Although if the economy goes belly-up and gas prices keep soaring, I still think they'll make a miraculous comeback.
    1
  1202. The IS is built on a smaller relative of the now-discontinued RWD/AWD GS, and is basically no relation to either the ES or Avalon except for the engines.
    1
  1203. Don't blame Lexus when they ditch the V6. Emissions and mileage regulations have pressured all the automakers out of V6's.
    1
  1204.  @justinp2993  The nature of opinions is that they can't come from "a neutral place." Every judgment is framed by the views of its author. If you watch the "neutral" reviews of Consumer Reports, they're not truly neutral, they're framed from a perspective that puts value per dollar first and entertainment well down the list—which is how I just got done reading their "neutral" judgment that a Miata is a "better deal" than a BMW roadster. Well, it is, unless you think it isn't. What you're choosing with any reviewer is a set of biases that matches yours. The Savagegeese duo's happen to come pretty close to mine. Where you come down on that is up to you.
    1
  1205.  @justinp2993  Honestly, I'm puzzled by some of these comments. First, if the two testers thought alike, who'd need both of them? I thought their acid-tongued debate on the Lexus ES was must-see TV. Second, when Mark says stuff like "you could steer this thing with 2 broken arms," he's humorously conveying exactly the info you're saying is missing. There and elsewhere, I thought they made amply clear that while this car had nothing to offer enthusiasts, it was a perfectly adequate low-effort grocery getter. You can get 0-60 stats anywhere, and as a practical matter, their assertion that the car was neither outstandingly good nor horribly bad in that respect covered it.
    1
  1206. For saaaaaavings. For 30 years, using family-car bones has enabled Lexus to offer up room and luxury at prices nobody else could match, at the expense of AWD/RWD handling. There's no free lunch.
    1
  1207.  @normt5463  Boy, was your series of fanboi LaCrosse posts even more embarrassing in hindsight.
    1
  1208. Have you driven one 2019 or newer? They completely replaced the chassis and suspension, and most testers say it's much less boatlike than the previous one.
    1
  1209. "Reverting" to what, exactly?
    1
  1210.  @peterjordansonthe2nd731  Wow. "Reverting" implies he had an "original" way of pronouncing it. Which means...what, exactly? And no need to call me "boy" (too).
    1
  1211. The recommended weight of synthetic oil, any brand.
    1
  1212. "Unprofessional"?
    1
  1213.  @cadriver2570  A great choice. Enjoy!
    1
  1214. There's a base-model Pioneer and a Mark Levinson upgrade. Most say the Pioneer is decent and the ML is excellent. Both generate complaints from some because most of the sounds comes from in front of you, not a surround experience.
    1
  1215.  @bradh6185  It's good to remember Mark Levinson isn't a system, it's juat a brand name. Nearly all car stereos now are made by only a couple of companies with a bunch of different brand names slapped on them. ML systems are made by Harman Kardon, now owned by Samsung. Mr. Levinson has has nothing to do with them for decades; it's just the brand used on all Lexus top-trim stereos. Don't get me wrong; it's a good system. It's simply not as exclusive as the name implies. Ditto for Lexicon in Genesis cars, etc, etc.
    1
  1216.  @phizix215  Depends on what you mean by "junk." Obviously you mean tactile sensations and pleasing sounds. But from a perspective of reliability and low ownership cost, it's brilliant. Now if you said "it sounds like junk" or "it's junk TO ME," that's more defensible.
    1
  1217. "My heart is not broken however I do wish I was in something a bit more luxurious." The Avalon is a fine car, but you just summed up why most people reached a bit higher and chose the ES.
    1
  1218. Not sure I'm reading this post correctly, but all the current ES engines run on regular gas.
    1
  1219. Well then! No ES for you.
    1
  1220. AND you got the LS after they debugged the costly problem with the front steering parts. Well bought.
    1
  1221. I disagree. It has neither the sensational gas mileage nor the hatchback versatility of a Prius.
    1
  1222. That's exactly the problem with the touchpad—it's distracting and makes you look away to use it.
    1
  1223. Alas, it didn't sell.
    1
  1224. Acura reliability isn't the old-time Honda reliabiliity you're used to. Highly stressed new engines, problem transmissions, a generally lowered standard. I'm sure it's MUCH more interesting to drive, though.
    1
  1225.  @dearcoffee85  I'm 6'2" with a long torso, and I have 1 or 2 inches of headroom to spare. BTW, the panoramic sunroof car has just as much headroom front and back as the base car with regular sunroof. They brag that they engineered it to retract up and out so it doesn't reduce headroom, and I test-sat both before buying to make sure.
    1
  1226. The reason everybody does a big, garish upright grille now is new regulations that limit the car's ability to hurt a pedestrian in an accident. All those grilles are designed to stand tall and upright enough that they spread the force out, and don't kick the pedestrian up in the air. So they're all soft collapsible plastic, often disguised as chrome. All the overstyling is to disguise that they're a big tall flat surface. It's not easy to be a modern stylist.
    1
  1227. There's a reason for that. The 2019-21 screen was tastefully recessed. But its control mechanism was an unusable touchpad everybody hated. So for '22, they fixed it by making it a touchscreen and bringing it 4" closer so it was reachable, which unfortunately doesn't look as good.
    1
  1228. japanwatchconnection Seriously, this same baseless negative "Mine's bigger" drivel over and over on every Toyota and Lexus thread for literally years on end. What's your problem? Considered counseling? Maybe change your outlook by volunteering to rewallpaper your mom's basement?
    1
  1229. This comment shows a limited understanding of what "platform" means in carmaking. It's more a set of criteria than the same set of physical components. The RAV4 does not drive similarly to either of these cars.
    1
  1230.  @user-tb7rn1il3q  Don't think of "platform" as the slab of metal underneath the car. Think of it as a set of parameters for where the key components are and how they go together relative to each other. In the metal, the ES and Avalon not only differ from the Camry and RAV 4, they differ meaningfully from each other in the structure of the frame, the amount of bracing, and the level of rigidity. Not just the spring rates and steering ratios. With today's levels of automation in taking designs straight from the CAD/CAM screen to the bending of the metal, the days of the ES as simply a Camry with different fenders are long gone.
    1
  1231. @CaptainFordo21 After you quit the homophobia, "Captain."
    1
  1232. Yes, this was an Impala. And yes, GM uses an awful, awful lot of cheap Chinese parts.
    1
  1233. I'm that guy, but I like this front end better than the last one. The lights and chrome across the top just always looked ill-proportioned to me.
    1
  1234. Nope, that's not why they're introducing turbos now. It's for the same reason everyone else is: intense regulatory pressure to raise their EPA fuel economy ratings.
    1
  1235. I do wonder if you could put this car on lowering springs without ruining the ride quality. It's so tempting.
    1
  1236. Yes it did, but the Lexus's platform didn't leave room underneath for both, alas.
    1
  1237. Probably cost.
    1
  1238. Toyota did scrap the multimedia and create a new one, effective with the 2023 model.
    1
  1239. Yet you just did.
    1
  1240.  @MeynMotorGroup  Thanks for clarifying, and thanks for the high-quality reviews.
    1
  1241. It is, in fact, much much longer. Roomier too, especially behind the front seats.
    1
  1242. I always said the Volt was ahead of its time. The only reason it caught so much crap was because yahoos mistakely believed the BS that it was Obama's (in fact, it was hatched under George W. Bush).
    1
  1243. C/D always unabashedly picks the driver's car in every segment. Savagegeese didn't argue with that; they merely pointed out that driving involvement is not the #1 everyday criterion for most buyers in this segment.
    1
  1244.  @fadedlogic1  Agree with your post. As you've seen from the other replies, there are many choices available to you that are better than the OEM tires. They're spec'd as gas mileage specials because EPA rules say the car must be rated (and taxed) for its fuel economy based on being equipped exactly as it comes from the factory, so they use low-cost, high-MPG tires that are quiet and comfy on the test drive.
    1
  1245. Then you want a used GS 350 or IS 350 AWD.
    1
  1246. Cohesion?!
    1
  1247. Consumer Reports loves them. The defense rests its case.😁
    1
  1248. You shouldn't have needed to drive it to realize that. Sitting in it should have done the trick. You're simply not the target audience for a car this size. Did you like the larger CX-5 better?
    1
  1249. The ES was always based on the Camry and then on the Avalon. If anything, they've widened the gap between the two in this generation by adding more upgrades to the Ultra Luxury in particular, notably the chassis-vibration dampers and noise-reducing chambers in the wheels.
    1
  1250. Partly because the gas mileage is pretty good with the V6 and fantastic with the hybrid.
    1
  1251. You disagree with the testers, ignore their clearly stated reasoning, and then baselessly accuse them of corruption. Stay classy.
    1
  1252. Differently than you just did.
    1
  1253. Then as Jack pointed out, they're part of a band of criminals that also includes all their direct competitors.
    1
  1254.  @eleanormassaro5195  Comparing to the NON-turbo CX-5, this thing is slower. And it's slower while not giving you the greater satisfaction and durability of a true torque-converted automatic. It's extremely hard to make a case for this thing against either CX-5 flavor, especially with a price penalty of something like $5k.
    1
  1255. What does a "modern" set of taillights look like, and does it look better?
    1
  1256.  @Ryanstuff  You do know the ES doesn't have oval-shaped taillights, right? That Lexus publicized that they're shaped like L for "Lexus"? Did you watch the video or look at the car before posting?
    1
  1257. And oh, by the way, this is the fifth year of the current generation ES introduced in 2018 as a 2019 model. So you're criticizing it for looking as if it came out when it actually came out.
    1
  1258. For you, there's the Audi A7. As for the rear seats, they evidently believe that luxury buyers value solidity and handling more than cargo versatility, so they've always given the Camry folding rear seats while giving the ES a stiffening structural brace behind the rear seatback instead. One might agree or disagree with them, but at least they've been consistent.
    1
  1259. @@japanwatchconnection I didn't say anything that disagrees with that. You simply start typing without reading what you're replying to. As I said elsewhere where you've said this, Lexus deals with a disadvantage BMW doesn't: extracting luxury-car levels of rigidity from humble family-sedan bones, not a dedicated costly sports-luxury platform like the 5 Series. But this is also why Lexus enjoys economies of scale that give it a price advantage over all same-size competitors like the 5.
    1
  1260. Yes. By Toyota.
    1
  1261. Hard to blame Honda for their dealers' pricing.
    1
  1262. If Americans don't buy this because of the gas engine, you'll see the hybrid here. The original CR-V was a Japan-only model that came here only because the US dealers begged for it.
    1
  1263.  @Leafninjaninja  The ES has always been like that. They figure solidity and quietness are the first priority, so they put extra bracing in that area, allowing only the pass-through.
    1
  1264. If everyone listens to you, then you will be correct.
    1
  1265. They're not that similar. The Passport has more off-road pretensions, and this car is meant to be the modern station wagon for sedate highway travel. Personally, I totally agree about the engines, but the Crown Signia isn't aimed at V6 intenders.
    1
  1266. I think it has more to do with costs. Because the ES can share so many conponents with the high-volume Canry, Lexus can load up the car and upgrade its structure, yet still sell it profitably at a much lower cost than the lower-volume GS, which died because buyers couldn't see the value for the higher price.
    1
  1267. The infotainment software has been completely upgraded, to the same system used on the '22 NX and '23 RX. Faster, more future-friendly, completely different menus and underlying operating system from before.
    1
  1268. Are you accusing him of taking bribes from a competitor to shortchange the Toyota?
    1
  1269. Reminds me of, I think, Rockwell on Photography: "The best camera is the one you have with you."
    1
  1270. Quick correction: Mazda affirms that, even on the turbo version, it's perfectly safe to use regular gas. In fact, it confirms this fact by quoting two separate horsepower figures, one for premium and one for regular. (It's still plenty fast with regular.)
    1
  1271. The Signia is probably capable in snow because of its AWD system, but the mechanical AWD system in the RAV4 is more robust and better in every way except fuel economy.
    1
  1272. Did you decide? And how do you like your choice?
    1
  1273.  @Edmond1812  Good to hear. Enjoy.
    1
  1274. Guessing it's not a Luxury or Ultra Luxury trim level. They have several noise/vibration reducers the other trim levels don't. Sorry to hear of your unhappiness.
    1
  1275. They aren't the same. They share a basic chassis, but the GS is longer and nicer.
    1
  1276.  @v60polestar88  Nope. Toyota and Audi pair up port injection with their direct injection so they don't carbon up as much.
    1
  1277.  @fastandfuriousman  Yes. Problem is, for whatever reason they didn't design in enough room in the new platform for both the V6 and AWD.
    1
  1278. Glad you're okay.
    1
  1279. I think the correct answer here is "C. None of the above."
    1
  1280. You're gonna get a lot less well equipped CX-5, CR-V or RAV4 for $32k.
    1
  1281. Yeah, but the answer wasn't No.
    1
  1282. We're all dying as we speak. Nothing about mass consumption of personal vehicles will meaningfully slow our rush toward global overheating catastrophe, no matter what propulsion system we use. Blaming the world economic order on a start-up EV maker is about as sensible as blaming the blight of corporate agribusiness on the cow.
    1
  1283. The GS is better, costlier and more discontinued.
    1
  1284.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, you've been trolling your Genesis BS on every Lexus review for months and months, and you're STILL ignoring the corrections posted under your falsehoods. This car has physical buttons for every steering wheel function, and as you'd see clearly in this video, they have NOT moved everything into the touchscreen. Stop embarrassing yourself.
    1
  1285. The ES doesn't have the fold-down rear seats of its deceased cousin the Toyota Avalon, because Lexus puts an additional brace behind the ES's rear seatback for the added structural rigidity that they believe is a higher priority for luxury buyers. It's not an inability to do it, it's a design decision.
    1
  1286. @japanwatchconnection Your assertion that cheapness motivated Lexus to replace the Camry's folding rear seats with a structural brace makes no sense. If that were the goal, they'd have put the brace on the cheaper Camry and the folding seatbacks on the costlier ES for the last 30 years. Now, I can believe that cost was a factor, insofar as Lexus has always faced the challenge of extrracting luxury-car rigidity from humble family sedan bones, a disadvantage BMW doesn't have with the dedicated 5 Series platform that's not shared with any cheaper car. But those humble mass-produced origins are also what's always given the ES its price advantage over same-size competitors like the 5.
    1
  1287. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the kind of ownership experience that's made a lot of people like me swear they'll never go back to German iron.
    1
  1288. Agree about the touch screen, and so does Lexus; they added it for '22.
    1
  1289. Still rates well in quality surveys, though.
    1
  1290.  @rightlanehog3151  Part of the reason for fewer color choices is that reducing production line variations makes the car cheaper to build and reduces quality mistakes. Honda started this 30 years ago by offering all its options packaged into trim levels and none a la carte. Buyers got more for their money and a well-built car, so they didn't mind. Another reason is that dealers, not consumers, are the carmaker's customers, and dealers are all ordering their cars in bland whites, greys and blacks because they refuse to stock a car whose color is controversial enough that they might get stuck with lot poison. The louder the color, the truer this is, especially yellow. More than once, automakers roll out an interesting or striking color scheme and then are forced to drop it in a year or two, because it's not feasible to keep it in the production mix when all the dealers refused to order any.
    1
  1291. Who are you to make that determination for the 40,000 people like me who disagree with you every year, question mark.
    1
  1292. Then you'll prefer the smaller IS, the pricier LS, or the competing TLX
    1
  1293. Both are brands built by the Harman Kardon division of Samsung. In this case, the Levinson stereo is much better.
    1
  1294. You were right, Andy. They went to a touchscreen for 2022.
    1
  1295. It's the same transmission Toyota uses in its Japanese-built hybrids, and it's an CVT only in its variable gear ratios -- it doesn't have belts to break like Nissan's Jatco crap, and it's proven bulletproof for hundreds of thousands of miles in multiple models including NYC Prius taxicabs.
    1
  1296. Cargo room, outward vision. The 3 has been severely criticized as a car you can't see out of, especially to the back.
    1
  1297. Bingo. This is why the renamed Avalon, the Crown, is silly tall.
    1
  1298. Then you'd better get it used, because this outsold the lower-priced Avalon by so much that they discontinued the Avalon last year.
    1
  1299. Until they're not.
    1
  1300. I have one. Not to worry. Build quality is excellent. Consumer Reports survey stats say the reliability has stayed extremely consistent.
    1
  1301. No. Each can vary in strength.
    1
  1302. Agree. I see a lot of Macan (and therefore a lot of Kia Niro) here.
    1
  1303. "Amateur"? This guy has nearly 950,000 subscribers. How many do you have?
    1
  1304. Fine. But if you want it with the V6 and leather the tested car has, you'll give up about $10,000 more over this.
    1
  1305. I miss wagons. For most people, they make more sense than SUVs. Which, IMO, is why you're seeing "crossovers" keep evolving in their direction.
    1
  1306. If you were expecting a civic on spacers, from the engine to the rear suspension to the dashboard you may have gotten one.
    1
  1307. The consensus is that you have the greatest generation of the LS ever made.
    1
  1308. Expect the sedan to be basically unchanged from '23.
    1
  1309. Yes, as KA said. It was tuned to cancel out the bass note of the exhaust and did so very effectively, even though the exhaust sounds fairly butch at the tailpipe.
    1
  1310. Now the pain starts, with a not terribly reliable or well built car that can't be serviced anywhere but the maker's notoriously skittish service network, and a maker that's been taking away features from cars even after they've been in owners' hands for years. I wish you luck.
    1
  1311.  @BobbieGWhiz  Not at all. I hope you enjoy your new car. The issue is that you chose to publicly post your action in a way that sounds very much like advice to others. I'm cautioning those readers.
    1
  1312.  @BobbieGWhiz  Also, about your math: It was not "under $25k". It was $32k. Still good, but your Forester would have fetched it whether or not you bought a car. It's not part of the Tesla's price.
    1
  1313. I have a '22. If it's in proper condition, you're gonna get exactly what he promised.
    1
  1314.  @Duox-YT  I have no personal experience in either, but most reviewers have said the ES is the clear winner in ride comfort and quietness.
    1
  1315. @japanwatchconnection No, but the fact that the ES is noticeably quieter and has nicer materials DOES "negate the fact" that you said the two are "the same crap." Quit moving the goalposts and just admit you made a sloppy, inaccurate exaggeration to sound cool.
    1
  1316. Cadillac really doesn't try to be Cadillac anymore. Other than the Escalade, they've spent the last decade or so chasing the Germans.
    1
  1317. We've got a cowboy culture here that gave the Prius a bad name precisely because it was exceptionally economical. People who like to ridicule others for liberalism were successful in caricaturing both the car and its owners as enviromentalist zealot kooks who owned it only to signal their own virtue and scold everybody else.
    1
  1318. I'm no big fan of this car. But if Mercedes and BMW bought into what you're saying, a decade from now they'd be Lexus or Cadillac, with a buyer base that's about to become dead. And that's a very big business problem.
    1
  1319. Hope you didn't do this. The Camry is good, but that gen LS is one of the finest mass-production cars ever made.
    1
  1320. Say this for him: He lives his beliefs. He's worked on them for decades.
    1
  1321. I'm not Car Care Nut, but I'm thinking wiper switch. The fact they'll run on high speed proves the wiper motor works.
    1
  1322.  @zamirtovar859  Hope it goes well!
    1
  1323. Or, buy a '23-25 ES 350. They hold up superbly as used cars.
    1
  1324. Get a used '22.
    1
  1325. Partly because of the economics of running a luxury car division. They sell fewer units than the Toyota brand, so each one has to deliver more profit to keep the lights on. And they expect they can, because ability to pay is one of the things that separates Lexus buyers from Toyota buyers.
    1
  1326. In retrospect, I think using the V6TT here was a test bed for using it later on the Land Cruiser, LX and Tundra. But unfortunately, time has proven you correct that this car is irrelevant.
    1
  1327. Why did you mention the first and third most recent Presidents, but not the second who presided over the biggest billionaire tax cuts and most unbalanced budgets in history? Beyond that, why did you have to infect an automotive thread with your ignorant political screed?
    1
  1328. Not so. Watch "Take it to the grave" and "Better than the V6".
    1
  1329.  @naveenthemachine  No, Naveen, your own personal ownership of a Camry XSE V6 does not mean that Savagegeese should be including it in all his tests, including reviews of 4-cylinder SUVs. Get over yourself.
    1
  1330. No. They stopped making the GS350 because nobody was buying it anymore, so they added a sports version of the FWD ES because it could be cheaply done to half-fill the void.
    1
  1331. I don't like the idea either, but the Luxury and Ultra Luxury trims of the ES do have very nice semi-aniline leather.
    1
  1332. I didn't agree with you when you posted this previously, and I still don't here. I don't buy a 302 hp, $53,000 luxury car so that I can't depress the throttle any farther than your notion of "normal." Yes, the tires break loose on any vigorous low-speed acceleration when either changing direction or on any kind of low-traction surface. And that's even AFTER I swapped out the greasy OEM fuel-economy tires for high-traction ones.
    1
  1333.  @luptonpittman6520  "Less than 5% of ES owners have a problem with their tires spinning too easily." - How to say you don't read the ES owner board without saying it.
    1
  1334.  @luptonpittman6520  You're right, a forum is not a survey. But again, a $40-53,000 luxury car is twice the cost of utilitarian transportation. It SHOULD attract enthusiasts.
    1
  1335. Mark has mentioned some of this before, specifically the Samsung piece.
    1
  1336. You're tempting fate with that timing belt. Spec says 7 years or 105,000 miles, and if you snap it, it's an interference engine and will trash the valvetrain beyond reclamation. Save a few bucks by getting the aftermarket Aisin-brand kit (has all the same branded parts as Honda's OEM) and having a Honda garage do the work.
    1
  1337.  @jgcruisers  I wouldn't worry about the valve cover gaskets unless they're leaking or unless you have valvetrain clatter that suggests you should adjust the valves, in which case you might as well regasket the covers just because you're there anyway. The plugs will go close to 100,000 miles, so if you know they're newer than that and the car is running right, no need to spend. But if you do, be mindful that you have to torque the plugs in more tightly than you think; be sure to look this up.
    1
  1338.  @jgcruisers  Smart to use premium, and not just for acceleration. If you used regular, chances are you'd hear knock and eventually foul both the O2 sensors and the catalyst.
    1
  1339. He's commented on it in other reviews, notably his previous 2019 ES 350 review. He said the ES is so improved that it leaves no need for the GS, although he also complains at length about the lack of the AWD that the GS has (as you know, of course).
    1
  1340. Yep. There's a reason Savagegeese's review of this car was titled "Take It to The Grave."
    1
  1341. No one will.
    1
  1342. They had a better handling and performing midsize sedan, the GS 350. But it cost more and nobody bought it, so they discontinued it.
    1
  1343. @@japanwatchconnection Read slower and post afterward. Yes, YOU prefer the GS over the ES. But the ES was outselling the GS by 20 to 1 when the GS was killed. Lexus is not a charity.
    1
  1344. Not quite true. High-quality FLAC files can carry even more audio information than a CD.
    1
  1345. We have a 2010 Prius, and when I test-sat your generation of Prius, I was highly (lowly?) disappointed specifically in the lack of rear-seat headroom. I can only imagine how bad I'd think the new one is.
    1
  1346.  @pontiacGXPfan  Actually there is. They warranty the battery for 10 years.
    1
  1347. You can say that again!
    1
  1348. Then you definitely should not buy one.
    1
  1349. Nobody.
    1
  1350. The power is nice, although it's nicer at highway speeds. I often read people writing (from their assumptions, I assume) that this car isn't very fast. When you ask it to accelerate once you're already up to speed, it's not slow at all.
    1
  1351. Very quiet, especially the Luxury and Ultra Luxury trim levels with their extra noise suppression measures. Car and Driver measured it at a quiet 69 decibels in 70 mph cruisiing, just 1 dB higher than a Mercedes S Class.
    1
  1352. You posted on an automotive road test board just to say that?
    1
  1353. Discontinued.
    1
  1354. Yeah, but when SUVs are what half of all the buyers are choosing, they can't really leave half the audience lying on the cutting room floor. This is a business.
    1
  1355. I have a '22 ES, and yeah, there are a lot of similarities. Apparently including the quality of materials.
    1
  1356. The only AWD version of either the ES or Avalon is with the Camry's rather anemic and less-smooth four-cylinder engine. They call that ES the "250."
    1
  1357.  @mrsj1417  Because when the passenger opens the clamshell style, it's potentially in the driver's way.
    1
  1358.  @tv321123  Sorry that happened to you in your IS, but surveys prove that was not a representative experience for most buyers. Yes, the Audis are more pleasing in most every way, but they are not likely to be as reliable, durable, slow to depreciate or cheap to maintain if you're going long-term.
    1
  1359.  @tv321123  The Audi is not a "real longitudinal based chassis." BMW and Mercedes are, but in Europe many Audis are FWD, and even the AWD versions are well known to be less well balanced because of that compromise.
    1
  1360. ES also uses regular gas.
    1
  1361. Speed Queen. Made to the quality standard of laundromats. Costlier, but the only one that's what you're describing. Buy the middle price level and it has all the essentials.
    1
  1362. Oops, just did. Damn. Oh wait, aren't you the same guy who's already posted this comment 5 times in this thread?
    1
  1363. Yes. This car is a foot longer.
    1
  1364. 40,000 buyers a year disagree with you.
    1
  1365. You said it: more room.
    1
  1366. in person, both cars are quite big inside.
    1
  1367. Yes, in the form of powdery oxide on the curb.
    1
  1368. Our entire legal system is built on "technicalities," and for a very good reason: They're there to avoid the trampling of your freedom on the grounds that "Well, you just know he did it!'
    1
  1369. Torque steer in a straight line isn't bad at all. But in corners, you can't really get on the gas or it'll always go wide. In snow or rain, it'll always break 'em loose when you mash it. Better tires than the OEM MPG Specials help the problem, but they don't cure it.
    1
  1370. Interesting observations. It is worth mentioning that Bose has never made its own stereos. They just engineer the acoustics and farm out the manufacturing. Almost all the car stereos of any brands now are made by either Samsung (Harman-Kardon) or Clarion.
    1
  1371.  @ptnpharmd  Yes. Regular gas.
    1
  1372. Disagree. I think Jack does a fine job. The car is much duller.
    1
  1373. Watch their full-length EQS video. They articulated it quite fully there.
    1
  1374. That's Stellantis in a nutshell, though. That's the Giulia, the Pacifica, the Grand Cherokee. They can design them, but they either can't or don't build them.
    1
  1375. Which is why Lexus also offers the smaller, sportier IS at the same price.
    1
  1376. Because they don't want them to be the same car. The Avalon and Camry have always had folding rear seats, the ES never has. It's been this way for 30 years. Evidently Toyota feels the family sedan buyer values cargo versatility, and the luxury buyer prefers a tighter chassis for its ride and handling advantages. You may disagree, but at least they've been consistent.
    1
  1377.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, you'd have more credibility if you hadn't gotten on literally dozens of Lexus threads already to trash all things Lexus and put up Genesis fanboi posts. We also know you have a Camry XSE that's "just like a Lexus." Get over it, get a job, and get out of your mom's basement.
    1
  1378. Some cars will only run properly on premium. Those cars will say it's "required," not "recommended." Some others will run happily on regular but have more power with premium, thanks to knock sensors that advance the timing more with premium (the last Mazda6 Turbo was one of these). Yet others, like the ES 350, perform the same either way, because they're optimized for regular.
    1
  1379. Watch his review from 2022, "Take It to The Grave," and you might reach a much different conclusion.
    1
  1380. You won't get it in this vehicle—maybe a future hybrid at most.
    1
  1381. If that's your only yardstick of automotive value, you should.
    1
  1382. Home schooling has its limitations, alas.
    1
  1383. Seriously, what does this statement mean?
    1
  1384. Lazy comment!
    1
  1385. Based on how incredibly slow the K series engine is in the new HR-V, I suspect you'd regret wishing for it.
    1
  1386.  @captinbeyond  The 2.5 was the K Series. My point is that it's very reliable, but precisely because it's less highly stressed than the 1.5T, it may not meet today's buyers' expectations for MPG and performance in a car the Accord's size. The base Civic with the K Series — the next size down of the same car, with the next size down of the same engine, has gotten criticized for that.
    1
  1387. This review is superficial?!
    1
  1388.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, you've already exposed yourself in dozens of previous posts as an embarrassed Camry owner living in your mom's basement. Besides, 360 camera, AWD and pano roof are in fact available on different ES trims.
    1
  1389.  @TruthFLA  You're right. Unfortunately, the truth is wasted on Naveen, who's tossed up literally over 100 posts on various Lexus ES reviews to justify his purchase of a V6 Camry.
    1
  1390. Probably softer-riding (except the F Sport Handling version) than the GS, certainly less sporty.
    1
  1391. The ES is built in the same factory, but on a different assembly line populated with workers trained to Japanese-type Lexus standards, and the build the car to higher standards and tighter tolerances (e.g., smaller panel gaps) than Toyota models.
    1
  1392. For you there's the gas-only V6-powered ES 350, at least until late 2024.
    1
  1393. Provided that you never have to look at it.
    1
  1394. New plastic caps for what?
    1
  1395.  @SUKADIK7  I think you're right. The party basically admitted in court in 2017 that they rigged the 2016 race against Sanders. It's why they're now censoring RFK Jr, too.
    1
  1396. The ES and Avalon are basically the same size, and the Camry is a half size down. The ES has different interior trim that's thicker in some places, which noses its interior cubic footage just below the EPA's "large car" threshold, and the Avalon's is just over it. But as a practical matter, they're the same size interior.
    1
  1397. As it turns out, pretty much nobody in America.
    1
  1398. Wonderful idea, impressive implementation. One thing that strikes me: RE Mark's observation that this system in an EV could be programmed to kick on the A/C, they could do that right now. It's being launched only on the Sienna, which is only available with a hybrid battery and electric A/C.
    1
  1399.  @truplaya4ril  Savagegeese has never pretended to be objective. Quite the opposite, what you get isn't Consumer Reports, it's an unfiltered look at their personal reaction to the car. They're not objective, they're honest in their biases. I don't see that as having changed at all.
    1
  1400. I'm a senior citizen, and I laughed out loud at Jack's old-age comments. YouTube offers up a score of car review channels that will give you dry, humorless -- and often, panderingly inaccurate -- uncriticisms of this car and every other car you can buy. If you find humor this broad to be offensive "ageism," I assume you're triggered in some way by about 98% of what you see. Watch other reviewers, get a hobby, or just breathe into a paper bag.
    1
  1401.  @HIOP0  Nope, I'm not Mark or Jack — as you can tell by the fact that it'd make no sense for them to post under my name. Anyway, as kids write in other kids' high school yearbooks, stay as sweet and lovable as you are.
    1
  1402. I'm 6'2" with a long torso and fit just fine, and i have the pano roof.
    1
  1403. Be advised the cars aren't at all similar. The ES will meet your expectations for room, especially in back, and usable controls, and you'll find it more hushed and luxurious. But you will also find it's a step backward in cornering and in communicating the car and road to the driver. Do try before you buy.
    1
  1404.  @ijl05  Indeed you did say that. Glad you're all over that aspect. With your having asked for advice, I just wanted to be sure on your behalf that what you heard actually served your goals.
    1
  1405. The battery replacement issue is overstated, at least in Toyota hybrids. They commonly go over a decade, and are warranteed for 10 years or 150,000 miles.
    1
  1406. You do pay a boatload more for the Ultra Luxury, and you do still have to pay extra for many of the cool features.
    1
  1407. Luxury brands will always cost more and depreciate more. It's not a direct comparison anyway; the Highlander is a twin under the skin to the Lexus RX.
    1
  1408. What a daring, provocative post. Feel free to invest in one.
    1
  1409. You'd be hard pressed to find a comparison test between the LaCrosse and the all-new, dramatically improved ES that Lexus introduced for 2019, since by then the LaCrosse was already about to be killed off because of poor sales.
    1
  1410.  @normt430  mpala and LaCrosse were on the heavily updated Epsilon II platform, highly hyped as improved. And Toyota has earned over 50% higher profits than GM, so I guess GM better find some more people to "desire" crapboxes like the XT4.
    1
  1411.  @normt430  Your argument is embarrassing at multiple levels. 1) Re-read what I wrote about Toyota's profits. 2) Read that Toyota is also now #1 in US sales. 3) Objective quality surveys like Consumer Reports still show that the best-built, most defect-free vehicles in the world have Lexus and Toyota badges on them. 4) The RAV4 is the top-selling SUV in America, and GM would kill to have it. But they don't.
    1
  1412.  @normt430  Norm, wherever you get your facts from, some of them aren't factual. RAV4 is recognized as a leader in resale value by Kelly Blue Book, CarEdge and others.
    1
  1413.  @normt430  So Toyota's current profit is smaller than their previous profit. How does this relate to your previous falsehoods about Toyota's quality, or the RAV4's resale value, or the supposedly overwhelming appeal of the late Buick LaCrosse?
    1
  1414.  @normt430  You have a problem with reading comprehension, Norm. So I'll ask again: How does this relate to your previous falsehoods about Toyota's quality (still documented to be vastly superior to GM's), or the RAV4's resale value, or the supposedly overwhelming appeal of the late Buick LaCrosse?
    1
  1415.  @normt430  No, not "just like," Norm. I'm not talking about their rather empty "Recommended" label. I'm talking about their actual historical survey data, where Toyota SUVs get a row of beautiful green dots for above-average reliability in nealry every aspect of the car, while GM's... don't.
    1
  1416.  @normt430  Once again, Norm, reading is fundamental. I'm speaking specifically about the RAV4's superior reliability survey results, not its subjective ratings. Stop misquoting and distorting my comments.
    1
  1417.  @normt430  Norm, I AM a CR subscriber. They break out their detailed ratings by not only vehicle part, but by each individual model year. You are mistaken, and rude.
    1
  1418.  @sanman1188  Everything Sanjay said.
    1
  1419. If smell is your hot button, make sure to check out a Luxury or Ultra Luxury. The smell of the leather just can't be duplicated by vinyl.
    1
  1420. Headroom is borderline. Legroom is fantastic.
    1
  1421. And they did. Less than 6 months later, the LaCrosse was killed off for poor sales. it's been 3 years now -- got time to post an apology to the guy?
    1
  1422. My reply to your comment is: I agree!
    1
  1423. Worse.
    1
  1424. Thanks for the sophisticated economic analysis. I'll take it under advisement.
    1
  1425. If you take away the main advantage this car has and then say "which car is better?", of course it will be the other one, the G90. And the G90 SHOULD be better; it's much more expensive. The Mercedes S Class will be much better than either of them, and the Maybach will be better than that, and the Rolls-Royce better still. And the Nissan Versa will be worse than any of them.
    1
  1426. The way you stop them is to not buy the car.
    1
  1427. You can turn down the sensitivity of that slam-on-the-brakes feature, using the buttons on the left side of the steering wheel and the menus on the left side of the gauge cluster.
    1
  1428. I agree.
    1
  1429. What do you carry? The trunk on this thing is really big. A bunch of published accounts say it's 13.9 cubic feet, although others say it's 16.7. I've seen other cars listed with 13-14 cubic-foot trunks, and this trunk dwarfs them. I'm inclined to believe the bigger number.
    1
  1430. Did you, like, watch the test?
    1
  1431.  @wma6019  Except they didn't agree on that. I was kidding, but... my god, you really DIDN'T watch the damn video, did you?
    1
  1432. The Camry was completely redone in 1992 and then redone next in 2018. But since the ES has always been based on the Camry/Avalon, when the '18 Camry advanced the '19 ES did too.
    1
  1433. No.
    1
  1434.  @aonforme3349  That 5 year cycle definitely hasn't been the case for the Tesla Model S, for one example.
    1
  1435.  @alessiosospiri7762  I already am disappointed by the Chinese version. It's just a matter of whether that warmed-over uglification is what we're getting too.
    1
  1436. This comment does not square with the facts. It has what over 30,000 buyers a year are interested in right now --- more than the E Class, more than the 5 Series. Even so, for '25 you'll get your plug-in hybrid with AWD and F Sport package.
    1
  1437.  @ejohnson3131  Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The lead time to produce a new car is long. The full appearance and most of the powertrain menu for the '25 is already public knowledge.
    1
  1438.  @ShaiyanHossain  Unless it's a business use, it's insanity. I suspect most are leased.
    1
  1439. I respectfully disagree 100 percent. Mark's videos are excellent. The Mark-and-Jack team videos are even more watchable. They bring two different but intelligent points of view, and I find their exchanges fun and illuminating.
    1
  1440. This is an uneducated take. The cheaper ES shares a platform with cheaper Toyota family cars, but the LS does not.
    1
  1441. I'd have liked Oldsmobiles better if they ran like Lucids. In its day, the original Aurora (actually designed for Cadillac) looked pretty good.
    1
  1442. I suspect those strakes were a semi-plagiarism of the cross-hatch that conceals the vents on all the new Hondas.
    1
  1443. They're building fewer. There's a long wait for one.
    1
  1444. Perhaps Mark's brand of bluntness isn't for you. May I recommend... every other YouTube reviewer.
    1
  1445.  @grandpaflorida1671  I get it, but that's his personality and his brand. It's like asking a rapper not to do it.
    1
  1446.  @scottcammack8339  Scott, you're making a pretty clumsy play to try seizing the moral high ground here. I'm sure he can choose his words, and he chooses (100% LEGAL) words you don't like. Just say you don't like it, and don't watch it. Simple enough, yes?
    1
  1447.  @billkallas1762  Right. The next gen will have AWD, but the V6 will be gone for good. Terrific car, that M35x. The juvenile exhaust noise and horrible gas mileage were all that kept me from buying one.
    1
  1448. They don't drive the same, and he didn't say that. He was quite clear that the ES doesn't measure up to those cars in maneuverability. He talked instead about "feel" while on the move, and you have to drive it to understand. By the same token, they don't remotely cost the same either.
    1
  1449.  @MercOne  "Are you kidding? I’ve had ES loaner cars for years, every generation and they don’t feel or anything else like 5 or 7 on the move, sitting still or anything else." Mark said it. Your argument is with him, not with me.
    1
  1450.  @MercOne  You're still arguing with Mark. Period.
    1
  1451. I'm going to admire this comment at the satiric level I'm assuming it was made in.
    1
  1452. Not in every way. Be honest now.
    1
  1453. Sorry you had a bad experience with your car, but anecdotes are not data. Statistically, they're still the most reliable/durable brand in the industry.
    1
  1454. They changed it for 2022, adding a touchscreen.
    1
  1455. And putrid reliability, nearly no dealers and a highly uncertain future for parts/service availability. Talk about a leasemobile....
    1
  1456. Same. But there's not much price difference anymore either, and since they can sell all they build, they're loading up most of them either way.
    1
  1457.  @cadriver2570  I have no experience with the LS 460, although I once test drove an LS 430 and was in awe. To hear that is really impressive.
    1
  1458. For 30 years, Lexus on the ES has replaced the fold-down rear seat with an added stiffening brace behind the rear seatback. Evidently they believe luxury car buyers value the added rigidity more than a family sedan's cargo versatility. They may be wrong, but at least they've been consistent.
    1
  1459. Honestly, that styling job was brilliant at its intended purpose. It was extremely efficient with both gas and space, so distinctive it helped brand the car, and appealed so well to its target audience that it helped the model's sales explode. It wasn't the stylist's (or the car's) fault that its very success made it a focus of controversy and ridicule.
    1
  1460. The M35 is much faster. It is also smaller, louder and stiffer. It is much more comparable to today's Lexus IS 350 F Sport. By comparing to the ES, you are comparing cars that aren't similar.
    1
  1461. Trade-in values aren't a Lexus thing, they're set by the individual dealer. If the ES is what you want, I suggest you either try a different Lexus dealer or ask a third party like Carmax what they'll pay you for your car. The Avalon is a fine car, but it was discontinued two years ago.
    1
  1462. SG answers that up higher in the comments. He's also made a separate video on the hybrid, in 2019.
    1
  1463.  @alpha7ization  This "already the new Lexus" is woefully misinformed. Lexus wasn't just a car. it was a whole new way of designing, building, engineering, and it was the first to break through the German monopoly. And from Day One, it had its own, outstanding dealers-- the exact opposite of Genesis.
    1
  1464. The ES has featured a reinforcing brace behind the rear seatback in place of the Camry/Avalon's folding rear seatbacks for over 30 years. Yet sales of the ES were up last year, despite being the same basic car since 2019.
    1
  1465. Not the same ride. Mechanically, they're almost completely unrelated cars.
    1
  1466. I find Jack entertaining, especially in this video. I have a distinct suspicion you just like to insult people when you don't have to stand in front of them while doing so. I call it Internet Liquid Courage(R).
    1
  1467. It's a family station wagon that goes from 0 to 60 in just over 7 seconds. How much more acceleration does your family station wagon "need"?
    1
  1468.  @barbecuetechtips6024  If handling were the only criterion. the ES would finish third in that group. And I say that as an ES owner.
    1
  1469.  @mmr0221  Lemme guess: Global warming is a myth, right?
    1
  1470.  @mmr0221  Wow, MMR0, that's a good one. Did you think that up all by yourself, or did you get help from your mom? Oh yeah, she couldn't have been helping you when she's right here under me.
    1
  1471. The Edge is still viewed as one of the better-handling midsize two-rows, so that's quite a statement. Thanks for sharing it.
    1
  1472. Pano is available as an option.
    1
  1473. Some LS owners on forums and at least one staffer at my Lexus dealership say they like the ES better than the LS 500. The pre-'21 LS in particular seems to have an identity crisis: too big and slow to be sporty, too small inside to be so big and slow, and not enough of either to justify the price.
    1
  1474. Lexus did make a car for you, the GS, but unfortunately the ES outsold it in America about 20 to 1. US buyers just didn't see the value as being worth the extra $10-15,000. Sharing components with mass-market FWD cars lets Lexus deliver the ES's level of luxury at a much more accessible price; it's not that Lexus is a bunch of FWD fetishists or don't know any better.
    1
  1475. You wouldn't think that in person. The materials quaility is exquisite.
    1
  1476. Agree on all counts. Personally I've thought the growth of the Civic is the #1 reason Accord sales have slipped; the current Civic is simply big enough for most family sedan buyers.
    1
  1477. Bad guess. The US Crown is just one of four "Crown" models sold internationally, and it's not the major one abroad (that one is the much better GS successor). Importing the Harrier to the US under another name is nothing new; the former Harrier came here as the RX. Better guess: Avalon lost its audience to SUVs whose empty-nester buyers liked an SUV's commanding driving position and high easy entry/exit, so they reconstituted and renamed it as a tall sedan figuring they had nothing to lose.
    1
  1478. Funny you should say that. Other reviewers like Savagegeese specifically cite the simple, not overdesigned shifter as a reason to like this design.
    1
  1479. Genesis up there with Lexus for reliability? Initial quality, maybe. Not for durability, and not for dealer or corporate support when you do have a problem.
    1
  1480. Other than your distaste for the styling compared to a Taycan, you never even begin to make your case for why you "don't see the value in this car." Mark and Jack spent 20 minutes making theirs for why they do. What's your counterpoint?
    1
  1481.  @Soh90  "Tesla does electric better" is very much open to debate. I'm no expert on EVs, but the case against Lucid sounds like it boils down to one piece of equipment they left off this model.
    1
  1482. 22 city, 32 highway, 26 combined. But if that's not good enough for you, they make the ES 300h hybrid expressly for you.
    1
  1483. Much faster, both financially and medically.
    1
  1484. Regular.
    1
  1485. Correct, and that omission has drawn oodles of complaints. As Kenny suggests, there's a whole suite of back-seat features offered on the ES in many other countries where the owner usually sits while a hired drive ferries them around, but in the States apparently Lexus was striving to keep the price down.
    1
  1486. "Elevated Standard"? Did you mean to say that's what ES stands for? Because it stands for Executive Sedan (although they're now trying to re-dub it as "Elegant Sedan").
    1
  1487.  @kimdavis5631  I am not the expert TCCN is, but I have seen other experts who agree with him. Modern cars use direct fuel injection (the ES uses both direct and port injection, which is good), which squirts fuel through very small nozzles under very high pressure. You want the higher detergent content of Top Tier gas to clean those nozzles on an ongoing basis to avoid costly repairs later. One tank in a pinch of cheap gas is fine, but just like junk food as a treat, I wouldn't make a habit of it.
    1
  1488. The difference between $100,000 and $400,000 is rather large, even if you're rather affluent.
    1
  1489.  @nathanacreman632  If you could get a Toyota Century in America, and if I had that kind of cash, I'd be one of those at the front of the line. I do think it's legit to suggest that even the current LS is not built to its incredible standard, after the LS 430 came remarkably close.
    1
  1490. Modest butt cream storage needs, huh?
    1
  1491. Sure are a lot of authorities posting in this thread who aren't even expert enough to remember that Pontiac misspelled the Aztek's name with a K.
    1
  1492.  @MrChristopherMolloy  Than who?
    1
  1493. Tired take. Differs in wheelbase, engine tuning, suspension tuning, sound insulation, interior room and equipment level.
    1
  1494. Unusual selling method, but effective! :.)
    1
  1495. I seriously doubt that. They still move nearly 200,000 of these a year in the US alone.
    1
  1496.  @mackeymichael  Historically, yes. Sales have slipped the last several years, partly lost to the CR-V and partly to the Civic because it's gotten so much bigger and nicer that I suspect it's stealing sales in the showroom. But they still sell a lot of them -- only the Camry sells more among midsize sedans here, and I think the Accord fetches more money with each sale.
    1
  1497.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, there you are yet again on your months-long Genesis Fanboi Trolling Tour. The chassis similarity between the ES and the Camry is not classified information; in fact, it's mentioned fully in this video. Stop embarrassing yourself. See if you can refrain from posting until you turn 18.
    1
  1498. No, but if he had any kind of discernment, the driver would. The Avalon is a fine car for what it is, but it still falls short of Lexus standards for interior detailing.
    1
  1499. No idea, but it stops just fine.
    1
  1500.  @altosack  David, thank you for the informative and well-considered post. I do not have your expertise: I come at this as an amateur observer of the sociopolitical world. I think the one thing the critics have right is the infrastructure problem. There is nothing inherently unsolvable technologically, but we as a society are demonstrating that no matter what problem is under discussion — climate, disease, inequality, peace — our entire decision-making apparatus is paralyzed and completely incapable of solving it. For that reason alone I am pessimistic that, for one example, whole communities of urban motorists whose overnight parking space is a city street will ever be able to livably support their electric cars.
    1
  1501. Huh?
    1
  1502. You can expect either one to be very reliable.
    1
  1503. Sensitive stomach, I gather?
    1
  1504. Places other than Costco. Some exist, I've heard.
    1
  1505. Why don't you apply the same reasoning and automatically disqualify Audi and Porsche because they're from the maker of VW? It's telling that you don't say Lexus should be compared with, say, Peugeot or Buick. No, you went straight for the ethnic slam on all things Japanese.
    1
  1506.  @stevejohnson4105  You do know that Bentley now is a dolled-up Audi A8, and Rolls is a Rolls body dressing up BMW mechanicals, right?
    1
  1507.  @stevejohnson4105  You do know you're not more convincing just because you use the word "wrong" three times in a row. Right?
    1
  1508.  @barbecuetechtips6024  What is the spec you want?
    1
  1509. Fair point. I think they do it on this car because they did it on the LS and LC, and wanted to give this car a family resemblance to those pricier models. I will say I'm using the left one much more than I expected, because on dry pavement the traction is actually better with the overprotective traction control off (as Savagegeese saw in his 2019 test of this car).
    1
  1510. Third row usability? Mazda's has never been good.
    1
  1511.  @roscoes-wetsuit1  I didn't say that. You're the one who said "not a single reason," and I gave one. Wanna walk back your question now?
    1
  1512. The used German cars are only inexpensive at the time of purchase.
    1
  1513. And, you do realize Toyota is a part owner of Mazda, right? They get access to the technology without risking the crown jewel of the mother brand's reliability reputation. Typical Toyota.
    1
  1514.  @valdius85  Thank you, Waldemar. That's very useful insight.
    1
  1515.  @papa_pt  Your first sentence and your second sentence have nothing to do with each other. And yes, considering that Toyota has already marketed an entire Mazda car as it own, I do think Toyota has access to Mazda technologies. P.S. The current C/D is reporting that Mazda's new midsize SUV will offer a Toyota-supplied hybrid drivetrain as an alternative to the new inline Six. What makes you think the larger and more powerful company in the partnership would tolerate only one-way technology sharing that wasn't to its advantage?
    1
  1516. You'd see the price of a Corolla go up thousands if that happened.
    1
  1517. Thank god Subarus aren't built like Fords.
    1
  1518. Speaking as an ES owner, that absolutely won't happen. The 2025 ES will be basically the same under the skin as the '24 except for powertrains and a little bit of crash safety updating. Going forward, my expectation is that Lexus won't have a flagship sedan unless it's electric.
    1
  1519.  @lexusguy9127  Reading ability. It's a skill. The more you know...
    1
  1520. But with better leather optional than is available on the top Avalon.
    1
  1521. I know it's been 3 years, but I just read this. Worth checking if the car you test drove was a Luxury or Ultra Luxury trim level. Its 18" wheels are a noise reducing design with a sound-trapping chamber inside, and the front door windows are laminated to reduce wind noise.
    1
  1522. Accord.
    1
  1523. Jack, love your commentary generally. One grammar pro tip: The T in "often" is silent.
    1
  1524.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, just like Joseph Alba said. For months and months, you've trolled every Lexus review with your "ES = Camry" and Genesis fanboi speech, riddled with factual falsehoods like "Lexus is in business trouble" and "Genesis is just as reliable." Give it a permanent rest and relax with your first legal drink next year.
    1
  1525. The G80 is more appealing in most ways other than reliability and dealer service. But the G80 is also $10k more expensive similarly equipped, so it SHOULD be better.
    1
  1526.  @TassieLorenzo  The only defensible reason to rename the trucks from Dodge was a plan to kill Dodge.
    1
  1527. Right about the back seats. Wrong about the differences from 2013 to 2023. In fact, they changed over to an entirely new platform in 2019 that retained very little except the engine. It rides a little stiffer but has more body solidity and better handling.
    1
  1528. Lexus has gotten criticism of this ES for retaining too MANY physical controls for functions like HVAC, heated/cooled seats and the audio system. The Germans have moved almost everything to touchscreens only, and Lexus has been ripped for being indecisive and/or old-fashioned. There is no doubt Lexus has kept the physical controls to avoid losing older buyers.
    1
  1529. Because they didn't leave enough room for both in the underside of the Camry and Avalon, and it wasn't cost effective to overhaul the platform to offer it here.
    1
  1530.  @zooq1139  I'm a fan of Geese, but I also respect Doug DeMuro. He was a good writer before he was a video star, and while he's quirky, I see nothing to criticize about the quality of his information. And truth be told, I get a kick out of his trademark "Thissssss...."
    1
  1531. There is no SUV version of this car. The previous RX with V6 is as close as you're going to get.
    1
  1532. '22 was the last year for the CD player (and the first year for the touchscreen, which most reviewers and I highly recommend). While I can't speak for CCN, I can say that all model years after 2020 are basically the same mechanically (2020 had a batch of bad fuel pumps across multiple Toyota and Lexus models). You really can't go wrong in that way.
    1
  1533. I predict this post will age like a fish dinner.
    1
  1534. Most reviewers agree with you.
    1
  1535. It absolutely was an issue. The Avalon was extincted by it.
    1
  1536. That was a great generation of the ES. Very luxurious inside.
    1
  1537. 3 years later, but I don't think the ES hybrid ended up being priced $3k higher than the gas version after all. $1k, I think. Also, assuming rock-solid reliability from a Lexus hybrid for 10 years really isn't that outlandish; I picked up a used Prius that did so in its first decade, and based on Consumer Reports and other survey numbers, it appears many do. There are also hidden savings in hybrid ownership, like not needing to replace brake pads for about 100k because the regenerative braking spares the pads.
    1
  1538. On May 8, you got your wish!
    1
  1539.  @EO1025  Yes, the Crown Signia is a wagon. Which is why I agree with your suggestion to slightly lower it.
    1
  1540. Congratulations.
    1
  1541. I'm just as amazed by this as you are. So much luxury and quality in the Silverado for such a reasonable price.
    1
  1542. If your idea of a great car is a motorcycle, then you're right to buy a motorcycle. But the literal content of your statement ("I know without trying it that I could never like it... my prejudices against government policy predispose me to hate the car") makes it clear that there's nothing they could do to please you. Lucid is frankly best served not to waste its time trying.
    1
  1543. There's a reason for that. Moving air doesn't know how much you paid. The same principles apply to both designs.
    1
  1544. You do know the irony of your post is that those companies, their organizations, corporate cultures, and product development philosophy are utterly unlike Lucid but virtually identical to Genesis/Hyundai. Right?
    1
  1545.  @AlahuSnackbar  They're linked, though. I'm saying all three Korean companies emphasize attractive styling and features, not durable components.
    1
  1546. Opinion, and not one I agree with.
    1
  1547. Uh, turns out his "misperception" about this Buick sedan was 100% correct. Apology?
    1
  1548. Remind me never to drive in your town.
    1
  1549. If they didn't, some in the comments section did.
    1
  1550. Agree about plenty of room for taller drivers.
    1
  1551. Both. The regular one is quicker and a little quieter. The hybrid one runs silently at times and doesn't have its tranquility disturbed by wheelspin when you stomp it (since it's less powerful). Both ride great.
    1
  1552. I seriously doubt that the world leader in hybrids is building a car whose battery is factory warrantied for 10 years or 150,000 miles, latest in a series of cars proven for hundreds of thousands of miles in NYC taxicab use, yet "is not going to last very long."
    1
  1553.  @danstenis660  Your first post asserts it's "not going to last very long." Your second post revises that to "won't last the life of the car." That's some pretty nifty moving of the goalposts. Also, I'd say it's far from proven than EVs will routinely last far longer than 150,000 miles. And unlike a Prius, when a Tesla sees its battery croak, the whole car will be a paperweight not worth fixing, which is an ecological minus in itself.
    1
  1554.  @danstenis660  We don't completely disagree, Dan. EVs are the future. But crappy Tesla reliability, crappy Electrify America charging stations, limited EV production capacity, and limited EV servicing options are the present.
    1
  1555. '22 already has that.
    1
  1556. Yes, traction control is standard. It's simply powerful enough to frequently overwhelm it under full throtte, especially while turning and accelerating fully from a standing start.
    1
  1557. Depends on the BMW. I think some of the smallest BMW SUVs have the Aisin.
    1
  1558. No BMW dealers out your way, huh?
    1
  1559. I don't know that Toyota has much choice. They're independent businesses that are free to set prices, and that's a fact that has bedeviled all the automakers except Tesla (who's fought titanic battles against state dealer associations even though they don't have any franchised dealers to begin with). This is why Toyota imposed very strict behavioral standards on any dealer who wanted in on Lexus when they founded it in 1989, and they tried and failed to do the same with Scion.
    1
  1560. Correct, they still don't, just as they haven't for 30 years.
    1
  1561. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I think its rival the Genesis G80 is much more attractive than the ES on the inside EXCEPT for the G80's weird ugly steering wheel.
    1
  1562. Faux except Luxury and Ultra Luxury. (I know, this is five years later. Sorry about that.)
    1
  1563. Let me help: Because it didn't sell.
    1
  1564. They did fall behind, and it looks like the CEO paid with his job.
    1
  1565. Yet, it's obvious you still do need further justification.
    1
  1566. I've just read through hundreds of comments on this thread. Naturally, I couldn't get through the whole thing without somebody tossing out one of these. So much for escaping the stench of partisanship by reading a charming little feature about cars. Thanks.
    1
  1567. But then it wouldn't be affordable because it couldn't piggyback on volume-production Camry mechanicals, as the sophisticated but now-extinct RWD/AWD GS proved.
    1
  1568.  @blackice7408  If splitting hairs, yes, you're correct. Even more accurately, none is "built off" any other; all share the TNGA platform, as do the Corolla and Prius, and to a degree the Highlander and RX. Point is, the more sophisticated GS was costlier to build and would erase the ES's price advantage.
    1
  1569. What a clever, incisive comment this is.
    1
  1570. If what you want is not a full-size sedan, yes. In which case, they have the Civic for you.
    1
  1571. I think they do in some countries. This is a much heavier car, so it's pretty slow.
    1
  1572. Boy, did this ever smack of "I'm restraining myself with all my might because if I let loose on what I really think of this thing after the way we blasted VW last month, we'll never get a test car from them again." The obvious problem here even as a soulless spawnmobile is that there are equally boring but more reliable and nicely trimmed rivals for the price. It has nothing unique to sell it except, as Mark said, sheer lack of adornment.
    1
  1573. The matte plastic won't be riddled with hairline scratches, though.
    1
  1574. I wish that for you, too.
    1
  1575. 70 large is a lot of money for me, just as it is for you and nearly everybody else. But it's hard to escape the context of that number here; this is the price-leader version of a $250,000 car, so I can forgive some corner cutting I normally wouldn't.
    1
  1576. That's nice and I understand it, but emissions laws mean they can't make them anymore. So you'll gradualy be sticking to an older and older mechine until you just can't anymore.
    1
  1577. I got into a 200 at an auto show and damn near took my head off on the door opening. The 200 is a full size class down, maybe 1-1/2 classes.
    1
  1578. They addressed this in one of their livestreams. They wanted them to be high-quality and US-made, and checking both boxes proved to be a colossal pain in the @ss.
    1
  1579. Room? Fuel economy? That seems just the tiniest bit over the top.
    1
  1580.  @devn3813  What's happening to that company is called "meet the shareholders' proft target THIS QUARTER."
    1
  1581. No. Just friends.
    1
  1582. Stale comment!
    1
  1583. Don't flatter yourself.
    1
  1584. Not really comparable. Both are comfortable with a silent interior. Beyond that, the resemblance ends. The similarly sized Mercedes E Class handles much better, is visibly way more expensively decorated inside, costs tons more to maintain and repair, ages very poorly by comparison, and costs tens of thousands more comparably equipped. Gotta pay to play.
    1
  1585. True. I think they were committed to keeping the base price close to the previous generation, and with a lot of safety equipment and structural upgrades added, it was feature content that had to go.
    1
  1586. A couple reasons, I'm guessing. One is that in some other markets, notably China, the owner of a large upscale car usually hires a driver, so the owner lives back there. The other is that in North America, the car is historically popular at an attainable price, and they've tried to stay close to that price point ($40k to start, $54k loaded) at the expense of removing features.
    1
  1587.  @lawrencetaylor5407  To show how important the China market has become to all automakers, the 20129 ES was the first generation that was co-introduced in America and in Shanghai. Not coincidentally, it now has more legroom in the rear.
    1
  1588.  @lawrencetaylor5407  Agree it looks a little plain back there for the class. The Luxury and Ultra Luxury do have a strip of wood on the doors, but on my '22 it's stained flat black so it doesn't really look like anything special anyway. I'm not sure why they bothered.
    1
  1589.  @lawrencetaylor5407  Your thought process echoes mine exactly. I investigated every avenue, from ordering the wood pieces from Lexus to aftermarket wood to picking the bones of door panels at a junkyard. Zero. The only thing I can even come up with as a theory about why they did this is because the Germans did it first. On a closely related note, I'm also bewildered why Lexus went to the trouble to wire and install ambient lighting in the dash and doors, then make it so dim as to be basically invisible. I picture a debate between the marketing and product people, where the grey heads whack down the brightness so they're never criticized for distracting a driver. Result: The car checks the box for having the feature, but the driver enjoys no benefit from it. It's ridiculous, but it's the same conservative mentality that makes the car so thoroughly engineered and appealingly reliable. I guess you take the bad with the good of that approach.
    1
  1590.  @lawrencetaylor5407  I reached the same conclusion. There are no aftermarket wood overlays I could find for the already-wood areas; the available ones are cheap plastic, a solution much worse than the problem. I've got acorn/black, which I like well enough, but if they still offered tan with the woodtone for '22 as they had in previous years, I'd have eagerly chosen it. The striped stuff in '19-20 looked very nice, and even the open-pore brown walnut for '23 is just fine. In '22, the only way to the wood was the peanut butter seats, and I just couldn't go there. Dang.
    1
  1591. Less of a deal breaker since it also reportedly has the best ventilated seats in the class.
    1
  1592. This car is made in Georgetown, Kentucky.
    1
  1593. Why did you end rather than begin your criticism of this review by admitting you're completely biased? That's 30 seconds of my life that I'll never get back.
    1
  1594. "Safe drivers have been subsidizing bad and uninsured drivers for years." This is corporation-fellating crap. Combining low- and high-risk customers into a pool is the whole idea of insurance. This is price gouging, period. Don't believe it? Lucky says multiple insurers quoted him the same price for his Smart. There's only 1 way that happens: illegal price-fixing.
    1
  1595.  @johngoe420  Maybe "control arms" (a suspension/steering part), maybe "trailing arms" (also a suspension member). Either way, on a Lexus you'd never expect them to fail. Thanks for the very interesting post.
    1
  1596.  @darioschaeffer5513  I have the Consumer Reports Auto Issue in front of me. Some Porsches are initially very reliable. They are NOT anywhere near the most durable. After about Year Five, you start to see a lot of nasty little red dots on their failure charts.
    1
  1597.  @mkkoper  I see your points, but you might be interested to know that the latest edition tucks the hybrid battery under the back seat and has the same very large boot as the gas-engine sedan.
    1
  1598.  @ahahuehafook4207  Not giving enough credit here to Mazda, IMO.
    1
  1599.  @alengreen589  Competes on price. A6/5 Series room for A4/3 Series prices.
    1
  1600. Even before Lexus started in 1990, it was the history of Toyota to be out-powered by competitors. Toyota has an intensely cautious corporate culture that despises failure. It's been reported that Toyota requires every model be designed to go 250,000 miles. As a result, many Toyota and Lexus engines look great on a spec sheet, but are so reinforced and understressed that they're slower than competitors over the road. Durability is what you get instead.
    1
  1601.  @AlexSt-1  Alex, you can say it's "BS" because you disagree with them, but that is really their history. The cold fact is, enthusiasts have always been a very small percentage of the car-buying audience. And as for bankruptcy, Toyota just regained control last year as the world's #1 automaker, so that would appear to be a little while away yet.
    1
  1602.  @AlexSt-1  You do know the Supra is a badge-engineered BMW built under contract for Toyota, right?
    1
  1603. What makes you think nobody wants a Highlander? By your own testimony, they're the world's biggest automaker pumping out 8 million cars a year. They can't make unlimited numbers of the vehicles that depend on scarce materials, and neither can anybody else. My brother just gave up on waiting for his electric Ford. What you want Toyota to do without delay, no carmaker in the world can.
    1
  1604.  @DavidL-ii7yn  That is the reputation of the body-on-frame Toyota SUVs, for sure. The only thing that does them in is rust. But today, unibody family vehicles do a lot bigger numbers in the States. I can report that the high-volume Toyota dealer near me shows only 12 Highlanders in stock, vs. 37 of the very popular RAV4's.
    1
  1605. With better build quality and Japan-spec materials, sight unseen I'd bet on the Crown.
    1
  1606. You might be happier with an Avalon.
    1
  1607. I'm old, and I thought it was a funny way of highlighting the debate between reliability/comfort and driving dynamics that's central to discussing the pros and cons of this car. Lighten up a bit.
    1
  1608. BMW hasn't lost, it's doing just fine. Regrettably, BMW has put more resources into the SUVs and EVs because that's what the buyers want. The average buyer in this price class is buying an X3, so it bristles with evidence of much more engineering effort than this does.
    1
  1609. This is not the only ES review where you've put up this post. The ES's rear seats have been non-folding for 30 years. They put a reinforcing brace behind the back seat to add structural rigidity. In that time they've probably lost some sales over it, but it doesn't seem to stop them.
    1
  1610. Yes, wireless Android Auto and wireless Apple CarPlay.
    1
  1611.  @povertyspec9651  Beauty is 100% an opinion question, sure. But why are you ridiculing somebody for liking something more than you do? What does it hurt that he enjoys looking at it? What's next, ridiculing him for admiring his wife?
    1
  1612. I agree, but they had it in the GS and nobody bought it.
    1
  1613. Wow, that's unusual. Sorry to hear that.
    1
  1614.  @mgbl2808  Depends on your definition of "try." I can wish aloud for Trump to drop dead, I can wish it aloud to a friend who owns guns, but that doesn't make me an accessory to murder. Nixon is on tape spewing all kinds of vile thoughts.
    1
  1615.  @ritemolawbks8012  I don't care what you think of me, but this comment of yours is reprehensible: "You're parroting Right-wing political talking points by even suggesting that a federal indictment on serious charges is solely political." So, we dare not even question whether the Justice Department can be politicized? Is this the same position you took when Karl Rove swept through the DOJ like an avenging angel, firing all the Democratic US Attorneys en masse and replacing them with Republicans, just before it undertook an obviously political—and successful—campaign to jail the Democratic Governor of Alabama? This kind of obviously partisan blind faith is exactly what paves the road to fascism. I refuse to endorse it, or submit to your limp effort at intimidation by even pretending to respect it.
    1
  1616.  @crewtheaftermath4105  If that's so, you prove and prosecute the crimes. If it's not, the intentions aren't prosecutable. Prosecuting "thought crimes" has always been unconstitutional and un-American.
    1
  1617.  @blazingfiyaTekLife  Nope. Wrong. Sorry. Somebody actually disagrees with you.
    1
  1618.  @blazingfiyaTekLife  No apology offered. And may I suggest you read as much of the indictment and surrounding analysis as I have, one education later.
    1
  1619.  @tim3172  That Audi B&O number is pretty stunning. Why would you pay Audi prices for mass-class tunes?
    1
  1620. ES tops Avalon with a more insulated underbody, more sophisticated shocks on most models, extra structural stiffness front and rear, vibration-absorbing chassis dampers on top trim levels, tighter overall tolerances and panel gaps, more layers of paint, better overall interior materials, and superior standard and optional sound systems. Next time you decide to gutlessly insult people you'll never have to face in person, get your facts right first.
    1
  1621. Yeah, but how the car drives is determined in large part by what the car is made of below. The lack of AWD and fancier suspension parts makes this car behave like a less expensive car the moment you start to throw it around. That simplicity is its strength and its weakness all at once.
    1
  1622. What critical things did previous owners say? Glitches? Bad build quality?
    1
  1623.  @babnu  I think Tesla had a couple things going for them other than the cars. Most of all, they got there first and therefore got the loyalty of EV early adopters. The dealer experience was unique, and at the time, so were the cars. Tesla has since left a trail of victims, from abused workers to crushed pedestrians, who would not gush so much about them.
    1
  1624. Never drove it, huh? P.S. Get Viagra and get counseling.
    1
  1625. I know what you're saying about the 6-speed, and the 8-speed isn't quite as smooth. But the new V6/8-speed combo does improve both the 0-60 time and the gas mileage, so I can understand why they did it.
    1
  1626. You benchmark a beauty contestant against Miss America, not against Miss Congeniality.
    1
  1627. I really don't think this car's most direct competition is a BMW or Mercedes. Now that the big FWD sedans from Cadillac, Buick and others are extinct, it's kind of a class of one. You're right that it doesn't come close to German driving dynamics, but that's not its goal. It's got more room, comfort, quietness and dependability than anything German within $12,000 of it. It's meant to do that; it's not meant to be sporty.
    1
  1628. And my suggestion is that if you have several thousands less, please buy an Avalon or Camry. What is the point of this post? Of course you get more when you pay an extra $15,000, which is the practical price difference between this and its same-size V6 German competitors. The compromise of using the everyday sedan's FWD platform makes that savings possible. If you don't like the comfort-oriented compromise of this car, you'd probably be happier with a loaded Accord anyway.
    1
  1629. They did. It was called the GS 350, and nobody bought it, so they dropped it.
    1
  1630. Show me the "argument" that hybrids are less reliable than annoying stop/start systems. I'll answer with 15 years of Consumer Reports reliability surveys that show Toyota hybrids with rows and rows of bright green "much better than average" dots.
    1
  1631. Kinda is. And thank goodness, because the next Outback unfortunately is going to abandon this body style and become a tall box like everybody else's.
    1
  1632. Then it would not be this car. It would be a costlier car, configured differently in every way, and it would be a considerably less relliable car from BMW, Mercedes or Cadillac.
    1
  1633.  @naveenthemachine  Except that unlike dying Infiniti, Lexus is still satisfying customers, selling vehlcies and making money. Naveen, you've told this lying non-comparison and been corrected multiple times before. Just stop it.
    1
  1634. Not all of them. If they're still like several years ago, those cars that do probably were owned by people who followed the ridiculously lax factory maintenance recommendations set so that BMW could claim "free maintenance" for lease buyers by simply claiming almost none was needed. And of course, no dipstick.
    1
  1635. Maxima won't offer it, for sure -- it's being discontinued. And you're not completely right about the "whole purpose" of the F Sport. It exists for two other reasons: 1) Bring down the ES buyers' average age. 2) Fill the void in the midsize Lexus lineup left by the demise of the GS, for much lower tooling cost.
    1
  1636. You expect me to mark the words of an anonymous YouTube poster for 10 years? My, but we have a healthy level of self-esteem.
    1
  1637.  @KP-xi4bj  Your question about the world's largest auto market is NOT "speaking of Lexus and Toyota," unless you hold an automaker responsible for how entire nations' economies are doing. But I can tell you how Lexus and Toyota are doing: They're the world's #1 automaker, and in this country at least, their cars have the longest waitlists, smallest days of inventory on dealer lots, and highest percentage of MSRP commanded in actual sale prices of any mainstream brand. I'm not sure I fully understand your point, but that's okay since I'm not sure you do either.
    1
  1638. Then you may wish to widen your YouTube viewing habits beyond a career Lexus/Toyota master mechanic.
    1
  1639. I agree about the ES, with the asterisk that they used easiiy damaged cheap vinyl on the passenger dash and the sides of the console. I'd expectt the next ES interior to be much like the current RX and Crown Signia, which to my eyes will not be an upgrade. And nothing will save the LS. It will die.
    1
  1640. Maybe not. The LS actually isn't very full-size inside. It has a smaller measured interior and no great advantage in trunk space either. On the other end of the price spectrum, the ES comes up short in versatility compared to its cheaper stablemate, the (soon discontinued) Avalon, because the back seat doesn't fold.
    1
  1641. The real Crown still exists, just not here.
    1
  1642. Lupton, not proof, but... An anonymous poster on a discussion board claimed he was a young recent employee of Lexus. The level of detail in his posts suggested to me he was probably authentic. He reported that he was surprised and impressed to witness that Lexus mistrusted US suppliers and trusted their Japanese ones to the point where every major assembly and subassembly in the ES was shipped over whole from Japan, leaving nothing but the body, paint and final assembly to be done here.
    1
  1643. Better tires. They don't cure it, but they help. I went to Vredestein Quatrac Pro. Other owners report positive results with Michelin CrossClimate II, Michelin Primacy, some Conti's and others.
    1
  1644. Based on reviews of recent Accords and Civics, supposedly.
    1
  1645. Don't worry about it too much. They don't use it where it kills reliability, unlike VW/Audi with breakage-prone plastic water pumps or Audi/BMW with plastic underhood air tubing that eventually cracks after repeated heating and cooling cycles.
    1
  1646. You're right. As someone who went from an SH-AWD Acura to an ES 350, I can confirm you would be frustrated by the lack of nimbleness of this car.
    1
  1647. Gotta cut it a little slack, since it isn't priced like a similarly sized Lexus either.
    1
  1648.  @yo2trader539  Your statement is carefully lawyered but does not contradict mine. Reread my previous post, please.
    1
  1649. Guessing you meant the RLX (sedan), not the RDX (CR-V sized compact SUV). I looked at the RLX before buying an ES. Personal thing, I just couldn't get past the awfulness of the fake wood. Not just that it was fake, but how unconvincingly it was executed, like GM bad.
    1
  1650. Depends on what you want. The Avaion is qulet and smooth, the Lexus even a bit more so. The Avalon has a nice interior, the Lexus an even nicer one.
    1
  1651. Consensus seems to be okay although not great.
    1
  1652. The problem is that there are hundreds of thousands of "Toyota Prius owners," but fewer and fewer new Prius BUYERS.
    1
  1653. No.
    1
  1654.  @marcdb1412  Agree in principle, but most of the Germans don't offer you a spare anymore even as an option. What's really obnoxious (and I'm not sure this car doesn't have it) is to take away navigation capabilities for you after 3 years or whenever unless you start to pay a monthly fee to keep them.
    1
  1655. As I'm sure you now agree, you were never a suitable buyer for it in the first place. The ES exists specifically for people like me who want the lower center of gravity and better handling of a sedan and NOT an SUV.
    1
  1656. Smoother, quieter, eternal life.
    1
  1657.  @ekimandersom4478  I think they meant used.
    1
  1658. Yeah, it's pretty silly.
    1
  1659. Now that you've had a chance to get used to it, how are you liking the experience?
    1
  1660. Your post sounds presumptuous. Put some respect in your comments.
    1
  1661. I asked Savagegeese that and they were kind enough to answer. Their reply: The Accord is good at the same things the ES is, the ES is a little better at almost all of them, the best choice depends on what you can afford to spend.
    1
  1662. I'm sorry that happened to you. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
    1
  1663. $75k base, $100k loaded US.
    1
  1664. Correction. One person does.
    1
  1665.  @ppmnox  Well, okay. A lot of people aren't drinking Bud Light now, either. I guess there really ARE people who'd cut off their nose to spite their face over the "wrong" celebrity tie-ins.
    1
  1666.  @jkliao6486  I disagree 100%. I fully expect any modern car to last upward of 120k with normal maintenance. Those that can't are crap like GM, or too complex like Mercedes.
    1
  1667. Yes, that and the rest of the things that make up the car.
    1
  1668.  @allentoyokawa9068  Actually built in Kentucky, but on a Lexus-only assembly line to Lexus standards. Production will rreturn to Japan in '25, though.
    1
  1669. As I mention above, the new Prius just might attract that kind of driver less than the old one did. It isn't horribly slow, and it no longer look like the designer left his rendering on top of the toaster oven until it melted into the automotive version of Rodan Meets Rocket Boy.
    1
  1670.  @TheQueensWish  According to the latest reports, you'll get your wish -- the console reportedly is reconfigured and the trackpad is long gone for '23. (The only sad part: RIP the CD player, too.)
    1
  1671. I'm glad you like your car, but if you think they're the same you either haven't driven the Lexus or are just in deep denial.
    1
  1672. A Stinger? Why not an F150 or a Corvette? How about a Gold Wing?
    1
  1673. You've raised your standards. The 2008 didn't work with Android at all.
    1
  1674. In normal times, this would make a lot of sense (although the argument for the '22-23 is finally having a touchscreen to bypass the dreaded touchpad). But these cars depreciate so slowly, new may make more sense. And Mark's point about the "full redesign" is that it's going to be a 4, meaningfully worse in some of the ways that make this car worth considering.
    1
  1675.  @babogatae  Hooni, thank you for the thoughtful and respectful tone of your reply. I think whatever makes sense for your situation and your wants is what you should do. I offered my thoughts only as someone who personally was recently in the same situation, and made two observations: 1) Many people were paying more than MSRP for USED cars when the new ones would have cost very little more, losing the certainty that a new car provides, only because they'd always heard the conventional wisdom that used is always the better buy; and 2) I might have bought a used GS rather than a new ES except that I found the touchpad so unusable that I viewed it as a deal breaker. If you see real savings on a used ES, it is an excellent used car bet, and if the touchpad bothers you less than it does me, it indeed should be no factor in your choice. Good luck in your shopping.
    1
  1676.  @rayhofmeister6693  The (non-hybrid) ES that has the 2.5 is the ES 250 AWD. Most reviewers have agreed it's a much less pleasing car all around than the V6 ES 350.
    1
  1677. Until you have to use the infernal touchpad infotainment from those years.
    1
  1678. It's what happens in a nation with our economic system. One that's run by a handful of shadowy billionaires whose ownership of Vanguard, Fidelity, Blackrock and Goldman Sachs cascades into ownership of every publicly held company. One where they savagely punish the stock if the CEO doesn't burn the furniture to deliver them record profits EVERY QUARTER, and one where the CEO is allowed to peg his own pay to options on that same stock. It's why Japanese cars are better.
    1
  1679. I'm 6'2" and fit well into my '22 ES, but the new generation starting in '19 is more low-slung than its predecessor.
    1
  1680. Just so it's not made by Hyundai. They just warned thousands of Genesis owners to park away from the house and garage in case the starter solenoid bursts into flames while it's parked and not even running. That's two self-igniting parts of the car (ABS modules previously), in case you're keeping score at home.
    1
  1681. Turned out he wasn't the only one who didn't find the LaCrosse was "not to his liking." And he wasn't alone in questioning the price/value equation, either; Car and Driver came right out and said it, too.
    1
  1682. Standards for crash safety have risen constantly. The Lincoln was based on the decade-old Fusion design, so that's not so surprising. The Chrysler 300 has the same problem for the same reason.
    1
  1683. I can flip that statement: Fewer and fewer buyers saw any reason to choose a Prius. Now that even the Camry can deliver both excellent gas mileage and nearly full-sized room when hybridized, the Prius needed a reason to exist beyond just utility alone.
    1
  1684. You had me at "they may not have the tried and true engines, but they kill you." Especially if you happen to be in your garage when the ABS module decides to detonate with the car shut off. Notice what their recall was? A smaller fuse, for chrissakes -- they DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIX IT.
    1
  1685.  @ARIYA2150  Seriously, I've stood under Hyundais with mechanics. They've told me they're disposable cars that are pretty good at first but lucky to outlast the warranty. I've got a family member right now who owns a Kia he bought at my recommendation because it was the nicest new car he could get without two nickels to rub together. Now he's trying to wring a few more miles out of it as its engine gradually surrenders. You just have to understand what you're getting and what you're not. Features and niceness per dollar, yes. Durability, not so much.
    1
  1686.  @ARIYA2150  I get it. I put my sister in a '17 Civic and it coughed up an A/C compressor. The only cars that are still generally bulletproof forever are Toyotas, and even some of those aren't (Sienna, LS).
    1
  1687. Yes, it does, particularly beneath the floor. And the Luxury and Ultra Luxury trim levels have more soundproofing measures than other ES's.
    1
  1688. And now Maxima, 300 and Charger will follow Avalon to the grave. Among non-luxury badges, I'm not aware of any surviving sedan bigger than the Accord, and incredibly it too is marked for death in 4 years.
    1
  1689. Admittedly an imperfect solution, but: Is it helpful to use the tone controls to turn the bass way down?
    1
  1690.  @savagegeese  Ah. Bummer. I know standard 2- or 3-band tone controls are a blunt instrument, but I didn't know that level of detail. Thanks for explaining it. So, the problem isn't just their overall EQ all around, it's that they overamplifed the subwoofer relative to the other speakers?
    1
  1691.  @ouch9326  Kriefels has been wrong about lots of things, over and over.
    1
  1692. All informative, though.
    1
  1693. Low-RPM power with lower emissions for today's stricter regulations.
    1
  1694. You're probably in luck, depending on your definition of "sports." They'll probably have a version that uses the top Crown powertrain, which is powerful at least.
    1
  1695. I get it, but to be fair, the ES has been this way for 30 years. Evidently Toyota thinks the empty-nester premium-car audience wants the added solidity more than the cargo versatility. I guess it's the price of trying to coax premium-car behavior out of family sedan bones.
    1
  1696. Hope not. Yeah, that sucked.
    1
  1697. I join Toyota, and Mark, in being willing to bet that a lot of people will disagree with your idea of a bad-looking car.
    1
  1698. The ES had wired CarPlay and Android Auto until '23, when it added the wireless versions as part of its changeover to Lexus's new infotainment system (also seen in the new NX and RX).
    1
  1699. This car sells over 30,000 copies in the US each year and has for 30 years, yet you seem personally offended that a professional auto reviewer furnished a review of it -- free of charge to you. Others up and down this thread are thanking this same reviewer for breaking the car-review sea of sameness by evaluating a non-performance car by the buying criteria that matter most in real life to them. What's your problem with that?
    1
  1700. Yes.
    1
  1701. And boy, do they miss him.
    1
  1702. Worth mentioning: The Envision is made in China.
    1
  1703. They gave you the AWD GS 350, and you didn't buy it.
    1
  1704. They have compared the ES and Camry in statements they've made while reviewing each car. Short version: Camry's had its V6 electronically neutered so it doesn't overshadow the ES; ES has nicer materials inside and is quieter.
    1
  1705. I've seen Mercedes models in particular that had terrible rust problems.
    1
  1706.  @jr.sciencebros.8411  It's an unfair comparison. He was upfront about what he had to work with, and what we were going to see; in most of his other videos, he gets to DRIVE the car.
    1
  1707. I know this is an old post, but... compare price. Lexus ES is a fairer comparison, and even that has a $15,000 advantage over a new E Class.
    1
  1708. Where are all these old and new Camrys guys like you keep talking about that look like a Lexus LS?
    1
  1709. Why do you wonder?
    1
  1710. Problem is, they can only get the trim level the maker will supply to them, and the press vehicles are usually passed around to all the reviewers and are invariably the manufacturer's effort to put their best foot forward.
    1
  1711. This is almost the exact same steering wheel that comes on the new LS 500, and it has no resemblance to any Lexus wheel that came before that. And if the car had RWD, it couldn't be a bargain, because the economies of using the Camry/Avalon's FWD bones are what holds the price down. They made a car like you're talking about, the GS. It did drive better, but it also cost more to build and sell, and in time they had to cancel it because nobody bought it.
    1
  1712. As we head into an era of inflation and recession, who's going to pay to install all that infrastructure? That ain't happening until I'm approaching my grave, and I'm not ready for that just yet.
    1
  1713. The Lexus ES has always been front wheel drive only since its introduction in 1990. Lexus LS and GS models historically were rear wheel drive, with the more recent option of AWD added.
    1
  1714. Eventually, nobody is going to be able to sell old technology once new technology becomes perfected, less expensive, widely available and supported by the charging infrastructure that's missing in America now. But what brand besides Tesla doesn't have this problem? So what?
    1
  1715. In fairness to Audi, the more softly sprung A4 is a more direct comparo, and it costs less than the S4.
    1
  1716.  @austenrichardgeorge842  Excellent points. But initial reliability is only half the equation. Durability is the rest. And BMW's, like their initially reliable competitors at Audi, still show a steep dropoff after 5-7 years.
    1
  1717.  @jacksmack6956  The original Tundras were brilliant trucks, vastly superior in build quality and mechanical virtue to the US-branded competitors, yet most pickup buyers never even gave them a look. Toyota even moved its truck HQ to Texas just to pander to them, all to no avail.
    1
  1718. Yeah, but to do that you'd have to pay a lot more money. I think they sell a lot of these to people who agree with you, but don't need quite the space and don't have quite the scratch.
    1
  1719. "Just weight" is exactly the issue. In suspension parts, it's vital for the best ride-handling compromise. At luxury car prices, people quite reasonably want the best balance of both that they can get, and steel is generally inferior at it. And I say this as an ES owner.
    1
  1720.  @zaffo757  Not sure I agree with this. Taken to its logical conclusion, it would disqualify 99% of the cars on the road based on everything from driveshafts to floorpans to brake rotors to quarter panels.
    1
  1721. Because the Lexus division sells fewer vehicles than the Toyota division. They still have to amortize all their costs, so the profit margins need to be higher. Plus, at root, the whole reason you start a luxury division is so you can ask higher profit margins per car. If you want the rock bottom price, you want a Camry LE.
    1
  1722. They're good cars; I rented one and liked it. Well priced, too. Just don't expect the same gas mileage or long-term reliability.
    1
  1723.  @famf6234  I'm sure you can. Just saying the ES hybrid's mileage is probably even a little better, and for a bigger and roomier car.
    1
  1724.  @chinito77  Figure they're holding it back for a future Lexus version.
    1
  1725. They got me with the crossover thing. BTW, if you enjoyed this, watch the opening of Throttle House's '23 Accord Touring video.
    1
  1726. That may be less true with the new ones, which aren't horribly slow and no longer look like the designer left his rendering on top of the toaster oven until they melted into the automotive version of Rodan Meets Rocket Boy.
    1
  1727. If that's true, why does Mercedes make a Maybach move-up version of the S Class?
    1
  1728.  @kevanneclarke3363  u just missed my point. If "it doesn't matter how much the S Class costs," how come there's an audience that still pays more and demands more? Even in the six figures, price matters. If it didn't, you'd group the BMW M5 and the Kia K5 GT together because they're both midsize sport sedans. But we don't... do you?
    1
  1729. The good news is, Lexus fixed the infotainment for 2022 by adding touch capability to the screen. Various testers have confirmed it's much, much better to use now. The handling is unchanged, but that's the character of the car.
    1
  1730. Both should be excellent. The Camry will need a hybrid battery after a decade or so, but this isn't as deal-breaking costly as it used to be. The hybrid system also reduces wear on brakes and eliminates some maintenance requirements. As for the ES 350, its V6 engine is legendarily reliable and durable.
    1
  1731. The front half does, up over the fixed back half to preserve rear headroom.
    1
  1732. Partly because newer Priuses get much better mileage than an 18-year-old 2005 does, and even better than a Corolla Hybrid.
    1
  1733. Dude, I'm old. And if you think everybody is the same who was born in the same 10-year period, you probably also believe in astrology and think everybody has the same destiny if their birthday was in the same month. You're embarrassing yourself.
    1
  1734. Air suspension is an option.
    1
  1735. Functionally, absolutely yes, although visually, it was a shameless Mercedes S Class knockoff and was widely derided for it even at the time.
    1
  1736. If your Impala is reliable, sit tight with it. And I say that as an ES owner.
    1
  1737. Better handling, worse ride, same problem with traction.
    1
  1738. Yeah, but you probably wouldn't have loved paying an extra $10,000, which is why the RWD/AWD Lexus GS died in this country.
    1
  1739. I've read that the transfer case was designed without enough room for both AWD and the V6. No idea why that decision was made, but I'd guess it was partly because Toyota felt V6's weren't the future, and something like 90% of Camry sales were fours.
    1
  1740. After about the 10th encounter with Tesla dealer "service," I'll curse you.
    1
  1741.  @antoinepageau8336  That's not what some other Tesla owners I've seen are reporting, but I'm glad you're having a good experience with your local Tesla shop. And that's especially fortunate because unlike most other cars, if your local Tesla shop let you down you'd have almost no other alternative places to service the car.
    1
  1742. You should see what Car Care Nut said about the LS 460 as a trip to repair hell.
    1
  1743.  @bizkillall  The free pickup and dropoff is a really nice perk. I've already enjoyed it.
    1
  1744.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, I'm 100% confident that you don't in fact know what they were thinking -- which is that the government's smog standards are pushing every automaker out of V6 and V8 engines. Did you post the same thing about Jeep taking the Hemi out of its big SUVs?
    1
  1745. I respectfully disagree, and his name is Jack.
    1
  1746. No. Basically unchanged since they debuted what Toyota calls the fifth-generation hybrid system for 2019.
    1
  1747. There weren't enough of you. The ES outsold the GS by about 10 to 1, causing the GS to die.
    1
  1748. Hyundai reliability starts to make a CPO Passport look pretty good.
    1
  1749. They've remarked in other videos that they like it.
    1
  1750. Excellent question.
    1
  1751. Apparently Toyota has chosen an alternative strategy to reduce theft: "Toyota Prius Chief Engineer Satoki Oya told PopSci that a reduced quantity of rare metals in the newest generation catalytic converter might make it less appealing to thieves. Although looks-wise, it wouldn’t appear too different."
    1
  1752. I'm obviously not Ahmed, but you're smart to use the Top Tier gas. Unfortunately, there's no telling whether the first owner was as diligent as you, and injector crud is a gradual process. If you want to keep trying a cleaning additive (which is the basic advantage Top Tier gas has), I've heard good things about Techron.
    1
  1753.  @ravd883  Merry Christmas! Sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean Chevron gasoline. I meant you can get the "Techron" cleaning ingredients as a bottle of additive.
    1
  1754.  @N77z  No. All ES models—the V6 ES 350, the hybrid ES 300h, and the ES 250 AWD—all are rated for regular gasoline, and gain no rated power with premium. It's a big advantage over most other luxury cars.
    1
  1755.  @cerny4444  How would he know that until he watched it?!
    1
  1756. According to both anecdotal evidence and Consumer Reports long-term owner surveys, No. Not close.
    1
  1757. Lexus' lack of AWD is not because they don't care about Europeans. It's because they don't have an AWD hybrid powertrain for this generation of ES in any market.
    1
  1758. I agree the concept of the Volt was ingenious and perfect for many people. But GM, like all American corporations, is a complete slave to the insatiable short-term profit demands of giant stockholders like the pension funds and equity gamblers. They and Ford killed off sedans not because nobody wanted one, but because of their investors' determination to punish them for making anything but highest-profit products. Now Ford's CEO says they'll de-emphasize 2-row SUVS too. Guess where this will end.
    1
  1759. Better this than just the humpback sedan, though.
    1
  1760. What's the point of a post like this? It's neither original nor accurate, nor does it make you look smarter than everyone else. It's just a lazy tossed-off insult.
    1
  1761.  @fzr1000981  I'm aware that the ES has a higher profit margin than a Camry. That's the price you pay for any luxury item; as TrueDelta's Michael Karesh put it in his ES review, "Diminishing marginal returns (as prices rise) are a thing." But you're not aware that the ES differs from its Camry little brother in numerous meaningful ways: longer wheelbase, trick shocks that took 6 years to develop, chassis vibration dampers on top models, sturdier chassis bracing front and rear, better leather, better audio, better paint, higher parts standards and tighter fit-and-finish tolerances, all assembled on a dedicated Lexus-only assembly line with workers trained in Japanese techniques. Now you may think none of this matters, and that's your right. But you don't stop at that. No, you come on here and use a gutless Internet anonymous nickname to personally insult people you'll never have to face in person, all over facts you have wrong—because while all those differences may not matter to you, they are in fact differences. It's exactly what a pencil-d!ck would do.
    1
  1762. I hope your CT5 performs well for you, but it's a different car for a different audience with different automotive priorities. Performance more, interior quality and reliability less.
    1
  1763. I own one, and it feels to me like a cable shifter.
    1
  1764. If it were RWD, they couldn't sell it for that price. It's the efficiency of being able to piggyback its engineering onto the ginormous-volume Camry that make its value possible.
    1
  1765. Then you've already been overlooking the ES for over 30 years, and I doubt they've missed you.
    1
  1766. I cross-shopped the two, and I really do think the RLX was the closest competitor. It was closer in size, price and luxury intent.
    1
  1767. They do. The same exact powertrain as the AWD Camry. It's called the ES 250. The problem apparently is space; they didn't engineer this shared platform to have enough room for both the AWD and the larger engine.
    1
  1768. "No reason not to buy TLX anymore"? Price, skimpy rear legroom despite a long wheelbase. Yeah, you can buy one of the SUVs, but you don't get sport sedan handling and SUV rear seat room in the same vehicle.
    1
  1769. Yes, just not with the V6.
    1
  1770. That's six boards where you've posted this comment, apparently all on the same day. See the others for your answer.
    1
  1771. The regular ES is more comfortable and quieter, especially the Luxury and Ultra Luxury with their extra soundproofing. The seats on those trim levels are still a little stiff, but they do have more adjustability and less confining side bolsters than the F Sport seats.
    1
  1772. And for people like you, Toyota already had a car that precisely met your wants. Why make two of them?
    1
  1773. The next gen will have a high-output turbo 4, probably with or without a hybrid battery. Probably they'll offer the same powertrain that's now on the top Crown model. Meanwhile, if you want your ES to go a lot faster, there's the 302-horsepower ES 350 which still gets a respectable 32 MPG highway.
    1
  1774. ...if you want something bigger and with costlier rear suspension.
    1
  1775. Its FWD nature, for better and worse, makes it the unique car it is: more affordable but less nimble than the Germans, more luxurious yet just as reliable as a Camry. If it went AWD, it'd cost more, just like the Lexus GS that went extinct because nobody was willing to pay for those traits without the German badge.
    1
  1776.  @thtupid  If I may ask, where are you writing from? Because in the States, the A4 and A6 are both available only as AWD. And it's common for luxury cars to have more problems than their simpler relatives; their feature-rich complexity provides more things to potentially go wrong.
    1
  1777. Because it's not. Lexus chose to add structural bracing behind the rear seatback rather than have a pass-through, just as they've done for 30 years. It's part of the costlier, more effective NVH control the Lexus has throughout the whole car. Otherwise, the Avalon's list of advantages begins and ends with price and back-seat heaters.
    1
  1778. Throttle House's Accord review.
    1
  1779. Jack, Jack... "a Chicago winter--one of the coldest winters in recent memory"? That is simply untrue. It was one of the warmest in 153 years of record keeping. Only two weeks were cold in the entire season. Did you simply misspeak somehow?
    1
  1780.  @jackholmes8105  Thanks, Jack. I was startled by that precisely because you guys' attention to accuracy is usually so good.
    1
  1781. How perfect do you look?
    1
  1782. I don't think so. I think it's aiming at a higher-price audience and has fewer off-road pretensions.
    1
  1783. Most testers who've driven that version of the car have reviled it. Unanimous verdict has been that the noisy, coarse and punchless Camry engine ruins the luxury experience. Car and Driver bluntly said it's a Camry that they can't recommend at the price of two Camrys.
    1
  1784. You might really like the new Toyota Crown Signia.
    1
  1785. @@japanwatchconnection Your repeated attempts to defend your continued masculinity at age 50 are on embarrassing display up and down this comments section. Get out more, meet a woman, and find a more meaningful way to prove it than to ridicule a group of auto enthusiasts you'll never have the guts to face and insult in person.
    1
  1786. They've been doing it for 30 years. They evidently believe that luxury buyers value solidity and handling more than cargo versatility, so they've always given the Camry and Avalon folding rear seats while giving the ES a stiffening structural brace behind the rear seatback instead. One might agree or disagree with them, but at least they've been consistent. I suspect it's part of the price of coaxing a luxury level of body tightness out of family sedan bones, which has always been the secret of ES's price advantage over the Germans.
    1
  1787.  @luptonpittman6520  I agree. It's well known that Lexus tolerances are tighter than Toyota brand, no matter where they're built. Specifically, body panel gaps are smaller, and standards for finish of parts are higher.
    1
  1788. No. I have a Kentucky ES, and it's well built with lustrous paint, good trim alignments and minimal flaws. The US Lexus workers are hand-picked for the separate Lexus assembly line and get much of the same training the Japanese workers get, and many of the car's components reportedly are imported from Japan.
    1
  1789.  @boblarkin7321  They're neat cars. Glad to help.
    1
  1790. I assume it's tuned to game the EPA mileage cycle.
    1
  1791.  @luptonpittman6520  Because they didn't change generations the same year.
    1
  1792. Has anybody ever told you that you're a bigoted assho!e? Let me be the 481st.
    1
  1793. Too early to say. It just came out this month. Personally, I predict nobody of any age will buy the Crown.
    1
  1794. Good point. If you want durability at reasonable prices, look into the smaller Mazdas.
    1
  1795. Many echo your complaint, but there is a reason they've done it this way for over 30 years. Behind the ES's back seat is a trapezoidal strengthening brace to give the ES more chassis rigidity, minimizing groaning/squeaking and providing more body rigidity when cornering. Lexus obviously believes that its buyers value those traits more than the versatility of a folding rear seat. They may be right or wrong, but at least they've been consistent.
    1
  1796.  @bobit8742  I didn't compare the ES to an Acura. What you're saying makes no sense. If the goal was to save cost, why'd they include folding seats on the Camry?
    1
  1797. They couldn't. There's not enough space under there for both the larger V6 engine and the AWD transfer case.
    1
  1798. Outdated proven affordable non-flammable battery. I'm OK with it.
    1
  1799. $40k stripped, $54k loaded in the US.
    1
  1800. Yes, and all the way into Beijing parking lots. This is designed for Chinese buyers, not American ones, and that's who will like it.
    1
  1801. He admitted he flogged it.
    1
  1802. The subframe braces InternetDude mentioned, a minor tinkering with brake feel and the brake pedal, upgrades to the lane keeping software, and most importantly the touchscreen and the dashboard adjustments to put it within reach.
    1
  1803. Beautiful car. Keep your eye on that water pump gasket.
    1
  1804. Or alternatively, Toyota is just holding the price down $10,000 below the same-size V6 rivals from Mercedes, Audi, BMW and Hyundai.
    1
  1805. I'm an owner who's 6'2" with a long torso, and I have room in every direction. Now that you sold, it's too late to readjust your driver's seat, but there's still time to readjust your attitude.
    1
  1806. Reportedly, much better. It's got a longer wheelbase and softer springs/shocks.
    1
  1807. In the good and the bad sense! 🙂
    1
  1808. Because it's a hatchback, just as it's been for decades. If you want a normal trunk, there are Corolla and Civic hybrids for you.
    1
  1809. Too bad there's a 50-50 chance you won't live to find out whether you bought wisely.
    1
  1810. The buttons and dials are actually costlier to provide than burying everything in screen menus. Older buyers, a big ES audience, prefer them. And makers like VW and Mercedes are getting a lot of criticism for their all-screen systems' lack of usability.
    1
  1811. You're why they make the base model. You can glory in the reward your prudence brings you that you also get to keep more of your money!
    1
  1812.  @dippitydoinit  Well, you can take the "glass half full" approach: By bundling options into only a half-dozen trim levels, the resulting production simplicity lets Mazda price them all as the best values in their classes. And mostly, they are.
    1
  1813. You can get either. Base and F Sport have the NuLuxe. Luxury and Ultra Luxury (this test car) have the leather.
    1
  1814. I think the Outback will be taller, bigger inside and more capable off-road, but less carlike on pavement.
    1
  1815. If only this had AWD it'd be a GS 350 for an extra $10,000, and nobody bought it.
    1
  1816. Can't blame you. The next ES will indeed be made in Japan, but unfortunately it'll no longer be the ES we know and love.
    1
  1817. Billy Corgan stole that line from George Bernard Shaw.
    1
  1818.  @boughtandpaidforautoreviews  Not Billy Corgan.
    1
  1819. Tell the truth. I've always been a big fan of rear seat center armrests, but how many times in the life of your current car has the center armrest been used? Even when I sit two abreast in a back seat, I almost never use it unless I need the cupholder.
    1
  1820.  @mybro727  The Impala is not an unreliable car, but independent statistics like Consumer Reports' survey of 200,000 owners proved it's substantially less so than the Avalon or ES. The 3.6 is a good engine, but it had some timing chain-related problems that Toyota's didn't.
    1
  1821. They're tag teaming, I think. Jack flew solo on this week's Kia review.
    1
  1822.  @jeedwards1981  I'm not "pretty sure of that." I don't know you, but you're making the same comment up and down all over this board, and it's simply not fair to compare this car with one that starts out thousands higher AND is unavailable vaporware. Would you spend much more, if you have it, to buy something much better? Who wouldn't? But what does that prove?
    1
  1823. I think comments like these are selling Jack short. He's aware he's got a foil next to him to argue against his position. This is a classic debate setup, and I think it does an entertaining and informative job of highlighting both the pluses and minuses of the car. Also remember this is Savagegeese's 4th review of this generation ES, so it needed an approach not used before.
    1
  1824. And if your mom was Dua Lipa, I'd nail her. That's just not what this car is. There are lots of other cars for that.
    1
  1825.  @sc666666  Yes. For 30 years, the ES has always had an added trapezoidal brace behind the rear seatback, and only a ski pass-through as a result. Evidently Lexus feels that luxury sedan / sport sedan buyers value the ride, handling and NVH benefits of a stiffer chassis more than cargo versatility. Of course, the Germans deliver both, but they have dedicated luxury-car chassis — Lexus's ability to build their car on humble family-sedan bones is why they can deliver a price advantage.
    1
  1826.  @Usernotknown21  "Dies at 120k" is completely inaccurate about the new ones. In fact, Toyota WARRANTIES the battery for 150k. As for the small 12 volt secondary battery. if you're paying $600 for that as you say, you're paying 50% too much. Go to Pep Boys instead of the dealer.
    1
  1827. No.
    1
  1828. Fair criticism.
    1
  1829. Car designs have long lead times. Gas wasn't this expensive when they designed it.
    1
  1830.  @sprague49  Not quite. More likely F Sport only exists as a low-cost gesture to have something for the 7 customers who come in missing the now-extinct GS. And to drive down the Methuselah-like average age of recent ES buyers.
    1
  1831. The heat isn't really a problem. What they're good for is that they trap noise.
    1
  1832. Know it's 5 years later, but... programmed. First, the ES is programmed differently and doesn't choke the power. Second, they wanted to leave headroom for the ES to feel faster. Third, with FWD and no limited slip, it can't put the power down at low speed, so they choke it back. Trans efficiency is just fine.
    1
  1833. For you they made the lower, squatter CX-50, but buyers continue to prefer the CX-5. So, not everyone agrees with you.
    1
  1834. Then you should do so.
    1
  1835. Because for 30 years, the strategy for this car is to massage the mass-produced Camry/Avalon running gear with better NVH and style to create a comfy cruiser that beats pedigreed luxury cars on price, and the Camry is FWD.
    1
  1836. @@japanwatchconnection The death of the GS is a chicken-egg question. I'd suggest Lexus stopped investing in the GS because buyers chose the Germans, the ES and SUVs instead, making it a waste of money. I think the poor sales of the fresh and excellent 2013 GS proved what the GS has proven for decades: Buyers in the upper half of the entry-luxury sport sedan class want a German badge, regardless of the car it's attached to.
    1
  1837.  @Bacon12954  Yes, they've gone to electric power steering. Rack mounted for better feel, and its feel is pretty decent.
    1
  1838.  @Treizez34  Presumably meaning "Grandpa" is maybe 55 or 60 today. Is this how your dad acts now?
    1
  1839.  @curt5802  If you're throwing shade at me, I kept my last two cars for 17 and 10 years respectively and now own a Lexus, my first new car in 29 years. As a college teacher, you should know better by now than to try to persuade people by calling them juvenile names. But then, you've already bragged to strangers who didn't ask about your money, your houses, your cars and your job, so... lol.
    1
  1840.  @curt5802  Curt, you were perfectly content to start this subthread with an ad hominem attack on a whole generation of posters you've never even met. We agree on one thing: There's a great deal "you don't know." Not just about cars, but about people and about yourself.
    1
  1841. Although this car can get sneakily way over the speed limit with its quiet ride and effortless acceleration on the move. I often find myself using the cruise just as self-defense.
    1
  1842. The Luxury and Ultra Luxury trim levels have a driver's seat cushion whose forward edge tilts infinitely up and down like the footrest of a recliner, and all the way down, it will get out of your way. I believe there's also an obscure feature in the seat travel where you can access a whole other range of seat travel that's friendier to shorter people, but best you ask your dealer to confirm that.
    1
  1843. True, but it's the difference between very good and excellent. Interestingly, most of the new-gen TNGA platform vehicles have been just slightly less reliable than their predecessors, including the old and new Camry. The Corolla has escaped that trend.
    1
  1844.  @ruffenduster  Agree about the V6. Hijacking the thread, how do you like the CX-70 so far? There have been some grumbling comments about quality problems and slightly disappointing engine/transmission roughness.
    1
  1845.  @trstnhn  And I wouldn't know from this latest in your series of insulting smart-ass posts that you were posting replies to a G90 review.
    1
  1846.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, I don't know if you're being cutely legalese with your phrasing that the ES "lacks a pano roof for the price," but the ES offers a pano roof option. Beyond that, I can only second everything David Lusk said. Give it a rest; you've embarrassed yourself this way on at least a dozen boards.
    1
  1847.  @mastixencounter  My, what a clever and informative comment you've given us all. Thank you so much for sharing your automotive insight with the group.
    1
  1848.  @mastixencounter  Oh, the "snowflake" unanswer. Got it. It's a wonderful Internet.
    1
  1849. @@adm9379 I just had a new Camry loaner. It's a nice car, honestly nicer than I expected, but you're still right.
    1
  1850. I assume your previous hobby was nitpicking everyone who said they were going to the ATM machine?
    1
  1851. Why should they be buying this instead? So they can enjoy an SUV's high center of gravity without the cargo space?
    1
  1852.  @stanmarcusgtv  True. I wish we could still get those wonderful high-quality velours that are still available in some other countries. It's revealing that Toyota itself upholsters its $200,000 Century limousine for Japanese royalty in wool.
    1
  1853. I'll sum it up...lazy trolling post.👎
    1
  1854. Guess that proves it's one of the non-German Prii.
    1
  1855. Uh... as a warning to others?
    1
  1856. You should price all its competitors.
    1
  1857. Exactly right. The engine is also louder and less smooth because it's the Camry's 4-cylinder. It compromises the luxury character of the car.
    1
  1858. I'd be very surprised if there's a non-EV ES sedan ever again.
    1
  1859. The G80 has a Four as standard. You have to go way higher than ES Ultra Luxury prices to get their V6.
    1
  1860. I've seen testers who recommended you keep your old GTI rather than endure the new one. Even the VW CEO agrees, as he's ordered his minions to bring back physical controls as fast as possible.
    1
  1861.  @scotts6702  I owned a GTI many years ago. They can't build 'em worse now than they built mine.
    1
  1862.  @scotts6702  Oh yeah. My GTI's drive was great and its reliability was stupendously horrible. I lost count of the large and small defects at 55 in 4 years. The A/C, a shock, the speedo, distributor cap, the driver's seat frame snapped in two under my ass. And the "service award-winning" dealership was as awful as the car. I went Japanese and never looked back.
    1
  1863. Wash those thumbs immediately! :. D
    1
  1864.  @BizzLeVrai  This time, any government bailout will have to come from the Italian government.
    1
  1865. They did, on Ultra Luxury.
    1
  1866. Chances are your loaner was the base model. The Ultra Luxury has soft and aromatic semi-aniline leather, real wood trim and a multi-adjustable driver's seat that the base model lacks.
    1
  1867.  @mathisnotforthefaintofheart  True. Mark said it in the previous ES review. Long ago, I had one of the old Four-Door Sports Car DOHC Maximas. Awesome driver for what it was. And even 30 years ago, it had limited slip. These cars should've had either limited slip or at least brake-based torque vectoring, which would've been cheap and easy to do. I think they just lazied out.
    1
  1868.  @mathisnotforthefaintofheart  Yes, the V6 has more power, and it isn't even arguable -- 302 horsepower vs. 215.
    1
  1869. Sit in and drive both. They're not similar behind the wheel.
    1
  1870. If it had the V6 and AWD, it would be as costly to produce as the now-extinct GS was. That would make it less of a value so nobody would buy it, like they didn't buy the GS.
    1
  1871. Stale underinformed comment.
    1
  1872. Yet you had enough time to sign in and type a comment about how your time was too valuable to watch a video that thousands of others enjoyed. You must be very, very special.
    1
  1873.  @Shaolin108  I'm not the author of this video. You weren't criticizing me in the first place. You seem a bit too confused to be a competent critic.
    1
  1874.  @Shaolin108  I'm just fine, thank you, but thanks for the advice on how to deal with you.
    1
  1875.  @Shaolin108  Far from me being the one who took it personally, you've just admitted that you responded to online criticism by INVESTIGATING MY BACKGROUND. I don't take it personally; I don't even know you. I just don't accept disrespect from strangers.
    1
  1876. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7QFcBxxSK4
    1
  1877. It has traction control, but the power just overwhelms the front tires and the traction control reacts by simply shutting the power down in an ungainly way. That's what happened when Geese was giggling during acceleration. On dry roads, it's actually more manageable with the traction control shut off, which may be why they made the shutoff button so accessible as the left "goat horn" atop the gauge cluster.
    1
  1878. This car still sells over 30,000 units a year in the US. Who exactly is "we"?
    1
  1879. If I had to get in a crash, I'd much prefer it be with one of these. Now, being the OTHER guy in a crash with one of these would be hell, but maybe that's what you meant anyway.
    1
  1880. Wood on the inner front only, with leather everywhere else so they can heat the wheel all the way around.
    1
  1881. They're usually in Illinois. It has a lot of very similar country.
    1
  1882. Of course, you could always turn right around and refinance it through a credit union.
    1
  1883. No, actually the GS was a class up, an international sport sedan like the BMW 5 Series. The Lexus in this class is the ES, still going strong 4 years after the LaCrosse's death.
    1
  1884. Probably never. Gotta go down to the IS or up to the LS for that.
    1
  1885. This "it's all guvmint's fault" meme is really tiresome. Hard as it is for us enthusiasts to grasp, the 2.0T had few takers, and the overwhelming popularity of SUVs has carmakers diverting R&D dollars there.
    1
  1886. For three years.
    1
  1887. The Avalon doesn't have anything right now; it's already discontinued. Naveen, you're trash-posting up and down this thread, and you're not even consistent. One moment you're trashing Lexus vs. Genesis or even Infiniti, and the next you're trashing Toyota vs. Lexus. How old are you, 16?
    1
  1888.  @ronaldhitchings1847  Ronald, I own an ES but I don't think this is completely true. The ES is similar to the now-discontinued Avalon, which was a stretched Camry. The Crown is somewhat different but is basically the Avalon's replacement, so the next ES will probably be a nicer Crown.
    1
  1889.  @ronaldhitchings1847  The true Crown sedan was reportedly designed to be the next GS before Lexus killed off that model for America. It's a sweet, sweet looking car and I wish we were getting that one instead of the humpback whale we got, but it appears we never will. The ES won't be related to the Crown BRAND, but I'm guessing it will be based very closely on the US humpback Crown CAR.
    1
  1890. Different class. More performance, less room and luxury.
    1
  1891. For the salesman?
    1
  1892. Turbowski quit because he wasn't having enough fun to justify a long commute. And I happen to like Jack just fine.
    1
  1893. Or, get the Camry and get less of room, ride, soundproofing, tight build tolerances, paint quality, interior materials, and sound system. Or take the Genesis for an extra $10,000 comparably equipped.
    1
  1894.  @user-cx2bk6pm2f  You're really good at attempted sarcasm, babe. And I'm confident you won't let anyone tell you differently.
    1
  1895.  @user-cx2bk6pm2f  You're really really good at attempted sarcasm, babe. And I'm confident you won't let anyone else tell you differently.
    1
  1896.  @user-cx2bk6pm2f  You can direct junior-high slights at me to your heart's content, so long as you stop insulting our host for providing us useful information at no cost.
    1
  1897. The Niro's only been out about, what, 5 years? Take the hint from the fact that it's already "ready for replacement." This car has a 200,000 mile engine.
    1
  1898. Kanner, you were insulting the intelligence and even the mental health of ES buyers repeatedly in another thread, and I see you're doing it here too. Admit that "for me" applies, and "an objective perspective" does not; you're defending your choice of the Avalon.
    1
  1899.  @kannermw  I've had enough of your arrogant bloated attitude across two threads, kanner. I'm a lifelong automotive industry scholar and a professional marketer with 30 years of experience, and you can take your superiority complex and blow it out your ass. Now that our credentials as people are out of the way, yes, the Lexus is priced with a higher margin built into it. Duh. That's the business model of any luxury brand. You market to a more upscale audience that is willing to pay for intangibles like the experience of quality and superior service, and you have to make more margin per unit because your volumes are inherently lower. As Michael Karesh of True Delta put it well, "Is the Lexus ES 50 percent more car than the Mazda6? Probably not. But such things are hardly ever linear. You rarely if ever get a 50-percent-better product by paying 50 percent more. Declining marginal returns are a (reality)." For people who want more car than the Avalon provides, the choice is to forgo it or to accept that reality and pay somewhat more in exchange for a richer experience. No, finer leathers, more refined sounds and feels, and smoother more pleasant operation do not readily lend themselves to justification on a spreadsheet, but they are real and the people who feel them worth the extra expenditure are not gullible asses worthy of your contempt; they're simply buyers with different purchasing priorities than yours. Get over your inferiority complex at having settled; the Avalon is a fine car nobody need be as ashamed of as you won't admit you are. Most of all, get over your impulse to give vent to your neuroses by gutlessly disrespecting others you'll never have to meet in person. It's Internet liquid courage, you've personally served it to me six times now, and I'm sick to death of it.
    1
  1900. I suspect this Accord wouldn't sell as well as the prior versions, no matter what they did with the powertrains. The trend is away from sedans, especially big sedans. As the duo said, that probably is exactly why Honda didn't put more development dollars into it.
    1
  1901. Very little. They added a black trim package option, and that's about all.
    1
  1902. Yeah, but 2>1. Compared to the Camry, the ES has: More wheelbase, more legroom, tighter tolerances, smaller body gaps, more thoroughly inspected parts, better paint with more layers applied in a separate paint shop, more structural reinforcement in the front and rear, more structural adhesives for body rigidity, more soundproofing in multiple locations, unique shock absorbers on non-F Sport models with a new design that took 6 years to develop, better sound systems, and nicer materials throughout the interior. The result, unsurprisingly, is a car that feels more luxurious and expensive.
    1
  1903. My suspicion is that they heard the CX-5 US focus groups grousing "it's perfect except it needs more rear legroom and a butch off-road look," so they gave it that and then cut cost from interior materials and the rear suspension. Remember, this was meant to replace CX-5 at the popular price point.
    1
  1904. The best way to understand the ES F Sport is that Lexus discontinued the sporty-handling but slow-selling GS. They wanted to have something to offer those buyers without making a big investment, so they made an ES version with minor changes that "F Sported" it. You don't like it, there's still the regular ES for you.
    1
  1905. Or who is.
    1
  1906. Or, get an ES. You can choose to pay less and get less, or you can choose to pay more and get more. I'm hard pressed to see what's a problem about that.
    1
  1907. Yes.
    1
  1908. Many in the Lexus orbit, including multi-time LS owners, agree that the current-generation LS was a misfire.
    1
  1909. Pictures of the same interior in other publications look brown.
    1
  1910. Confused by this post. Is your ES an F Sport Handling by any chance?
    1
  1911. Uh, yes, America has millions of used cars for sale. Could you be a little more specific?
    1
  1912. Stating my bias up front, I own an ES. That said, I had a choice of cars that included the Camry, and I can assure you that if I thought the Camry was the same, I'd have saved half the money. Don't accept this bit of Internet conventional wisdom until you've driven the car.
    1
  1913. Not quite. Per Edmunds, even after discounts the Legacy stripper is still almost $2,000 more. In this price class, that matters.
    1
  1914. Because the GS failed to sell.
    1
  1915. Toyota doesn't mark them up, the dealers do. How about just boycotting the dealers who take $5,000-$10,000 markups?
    1
  1916. Best match in a new car is a TLX Type S (AWD, turbo V6). If you didn't mind the front-drive bias and wheelspin of your old TL, though, you could do worse than an ES 350 F Sport Handling. If you want something smaller and nimbler, there's the IS 350 AWD. All three still rock smooth V6 power.
    1
  1917. Wow. Just wow.
    1
  1918. Great car, but it died because it didn't sell. As buyers, we killed it.
    1
  1919. As an ES owner, I respect what they've accomplished with this car, but the interior still looks cheap and plasticky by comparison, and I'd miss the musical tones of the V6. No knock on the Camry; it needs to sell for a lot less.
    1
  1920. Depends on your definition of "old technology." This is the fifth generation of Toyota hybrids, and it's been widely reported that it's the best yet in terms of both mileage/performance and seamless operation, all while retaining its industry-best reliability. Something doesn't have to be radically different to be usefully advanced.
    1
  1921.  @anotheran  The suspension has variable-damping KYB shocks with 600 levels of damping on the F Sport, and world's-first shocks with passive two-stage damping on all other models. The chassis uses modern weld and adhesive technologies, plus Yamaha Performance Dampers on top trims that are usually found only on much more expensive cars. Read the last sentence of my above post again.
    1
  1922. Just got one of these. Beautifully built, reliable, spacious. Does the luxury part of the equation really well. Dynamically, the engine is terrific but they de-emphasized handling in favor of ride comfort; it spins the tires all the time, and it understeers and plows wide in low-speed corners like crazy although it controls body roll pretty well on expressway ramps. If you want a comfy cruiser and you buy rather than lease, it's great. If you lease or trade in often and/or you care about cornering fast, go German.
    1
  1923. Except 1) no 10-year-old car compares to the reliability and remaining lifespan of a reliable new one, 2) you'd miss out on all the safety and tech improvements of the intervening 10 years, and 3) I seriously doubt anybody who's looking at a new ES is cross-shopping it against a 2012 ES.
    1
  1924. No, that was the Regal. This was a Chevy Impala with Buick logos.
    1
  1925. So is a Ford Maverick turbo, depending on what you're looking for, but either is an irrelevant apples/oranges comparison.
    1
  1926.  @gold3nhorus  I do. Almost identical to this test car except for the exterior color. And, it's just like he says it is.
    1
  1927. The RX is overpriced and has effed-up controls. I think you'll choose the Crown Signia and love it.
    1
  1928. Turns out you weren't alone.
    1
  1929. That doesn't explain why Mazda had to drop its midsize near-luxury sedan the Mazda6 Signature because of poor US sales.
    1
  1930. Sir, how many seconds did it take you to compose this comment? And do you actually believe it?
    1
  1931. Their V6 is so smooth, you'd never miss an inline design. And, its more compact packaging makes possible the car's gobs of interior room.
    1
  1932.  @savagegeese  Thank you kindly for personally answering. I have a '22 ES 350 UL with ML and was just sanity-checking myself. It does sound like the Accord will be the right answer for a lot of people. You guys are the only YouTube channel of any kind that I subscribe to -- as always, thanks for what you do. And, great Throttle House cameo!
    1
  1933. It really was horrid in my opinion too, and in the views of many reviewers. I waited until they went to a touchpad in '22, which completely solved it.
    1
  1934. I happen not to be religious, but he makes exactly one non-aggressive religious reference in the entire video, and it's after he's provided you with 15-20 minutes of valuable free information. Something tells me you just like to verbally abuse strangers from your Mom's basement under an assumed name.
    1
  1935. You can "look into" a Mk7.5 GTI all you like, but now that word's gotten around about the Mk8, that's all you'll do before the owner calls the cops on you.
    1
  1936. You can say all the same things about the CX-5, though.
    1
  1937.  @PresidentJackBauer  Yes and no. It's simply an argument against any Mazda.
    1
  1938.  @PresidentJackBauer  While I respectfully disagree, I get what you mean: size, feature count, newness of engineering. In that way, they're the anti-Kia.
    1
  1939. Not really similar if you drive them. The RC will be much more nimble while the ES will be much more coddling and spacious.
    1
  1940. You can find some now.
    1
  1941.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, he's explicitly telling you what HIS opinion is. Shocking as this must be to you, nobody stops before posting and says "What does Naveen think?"
    1
  1942.  @blueangel1972  Right. They have heat, recline, and rear controls in some countries, just not in the States.
    1
  1943.  @YankeeMav  Uh... who's Mayor Wu?
    1
  1944. A Mercedes executive has come right out and said they see electric cars as heaven sent because they have a small fraction of the powertrain cost, yet can be marked up to the same retail prices to generate massively higher profits. I view this car's sub-S Class interior as part of an overall exercise in seeing just how much cheapifying they can get away with.
    1
  1945. You lost me at "used Jettas are the best value." Yeah, until a month after you buy it.
    1
  1946. No. It's virtually impossible.
    1
  1947.  @lexusguy9127  "Small car ride"?! Way to tell me you haven't driven an ES without telling me.
    1
  1948.  @lexusguy9127  Then try driving an actual small car and get back to me. It's clear you've forgotten what an actual small car ride feels like.
    1
  1949.  @lexusguy9127  You seem to have this backwards, Guy. Defending your tossed-off inaccurate statements isn't my job. I've driven everything from DTS's to GTI's, and I can assure you the ES rides much more like the former than the latter. Of course I would expect the LS should ride even more smoothly, given that it's got an extra 12 inches of length and $40,000 of cost. But I'm gathering the real point here is that you want everyone to know you have an LS where I only have an ES, so yours is longer than mine, so to speak. For all I know of you as the anonymous Internet poster you are, that may be true, but you sure seem mighty insecure about it.
    1
  1950. I think there's no doubt that the GS wipes the floor with the ES in steering and handling. I looked seriously at a used GS as an alternative to a new ES, but a couple things stopped me: styling inside and out, and that damn touchpad/mousepad/whatever.
    1
  1951. That and the availability of heated rear seats only on Avalon were weird disparities between the two. I'm pretty sure the teams that developed the two were quite independent from each other. I'd guess Avalon got those features to separate it from Camry, and ES left them off to hold the price down to the same neighborhood as the previous ES.
    1
  1952. The ES went up on size for a couple of reasons. The first was that after the IS came into being, Lexus felt the ES didn't have to be sporty anymore and could be a more single-minded luxury boat. The second came with the growth of the Chinese market. There most upscale buyers hire a driver and ride in the back, so the back of the ES got bigger and the 2019 was co-introduced at events in Nashville and Shanghai.
    1
  1953. Missed the new RX and the GTI's dashboard, huh?
    1
  1954. "than the Lexus tested here" is the trick phrase. You can also get a Lexus LS for about $25k less than the one tested here. And no, the V8 is not the engine in a base-price G90. Go spec and price that again.
    1
  1955.  @turnne  So it takes extra effort to get a base LS, which means its existence doesn't count. At the same time, it takes extra expense to get a V8 on the G90, but that's no problem. Yep, I sure "don't know" much of anything. Got it.
    1
  1956.  @turnne  You seem to accompany each and every one of your posts with a personal, belittling insult toward someone you've never met. Seen a urologist?
    1
  1957. You're right, they're not really direct competitors. A more similar Lexus is a used LS 500. A Genesis that's more similar to the ES is the G80.
    1
  1958. Your post proves that you are a BMW driver.
    1
  1959. They cost more.
    1
  1960.  @66rollincoal  I think they said this was it.
    1
  1961. What a clever analysis.
    1
  1962. Untrue, at least on ES. You have to pay the subscription to remote-start from the mobile app. Remote starting from the fob works even if you don't subscribe.
    1
  1963.  @whiteandnerdytuba  No. Go to 15:15 of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ngrasTQGIQ
    1
  1964. @japanwatchconnection You've smeared Japanese quality with falsehoods up and down this thread. Yes, Honda quality is down, but it happened much later than 1999 when you carelessly claim it did.
    1
  1965. Depends on what you want. Performance, Mercedes all day. Reliability and durability, Lexus forever.
    1
  1966. It's possible to put a Curt brand Camry/Avalon hitch on, but you have to do some considerable violence to the underside of the car. A guy posted with pictures at Club Lexus on his installation. You can also use a trunk-mounted carrier if you're willing to risk the paint damage; the Saris Bones appears to be the best choice available. If you try that, I'd get some cushioning material for the trunklid contact points, and the clear plastic Lexus applique to shield the top of the bumper.
    1
  1967. The handling. Except on a dry entrance ramp, you can't corner or maneuver quickly.
    1
  1968.  @edwardstark6817  Because fast cornering is fun.
    1
  1969.  @naveenthemachine  Introducing Naveen, the Genesis fanboi who's been trolling every Lexus thread here for about 2 years. Objectively: G80 is bigger, more stylish, looks more luxurious inside and out, and has more modern tech. On the downside, it's about $10 pricier when similarly equipped, it's unreliable, dealer support is much worse, and all but the top models have a coarse Four.
    1
  1970. I happen not to be religious, but even I'm put off by your needlessly belligerent comments toward someone who's done nothing to you except give you valuable free advice. Give the respect to others' beliefs that you expect us to give to yours.
    1
  1971.  @user-cx2bk6pm2f  Good thing I didn't ask for your respect. I asked you to respect your host. This is a public forum, pal. You don't get to decide who responds to you. Get over yourself.
    1
  1972. Uh, because the Tesla can strand you in the middle of nowhere, is built by a company that abuses its workers, has repeatedly lied about safety standards, and doesn't observe industry standards for parts quality, and is built like a piece of disposable crap?
    1
  1973. Available as an option.
    1
  1974.  @novadhd  $40k base, $54k loaded like this tester.
    1
  1975. I have an ES, and it's very quiet. But I don't know if I'd disparage the Avalon by saying it's "hugely" louder.
    1
  1976. Same grille and taillights, for one thing.
    1
  1977. Then give serious consideration to buying some other car entirely, because just about every tester has come away saying that putting a firm handling suspension on this car ruins what makes it special without making it an agile-handling car. Watch Savagegeese's "ES: The Last and Best Updates" for more details.
    1
  1978. Other than the Cadillac Blackwings, which aren't long for this world themselves, there are pretty much no competitors.
    1
  1979. Check out the G80's one-piece molded plastic gas cap door. When the hinge inevitably fatigues and breaks, you'll have to do heavy disassembly to avoid having your luxury car look like a hoopty.
    1
  1980. When the GS was here, not enough people bought it. They made a beautiful successor car and they're selling it abroad as one of the Crowns, but they can't make a business case to send it here.
    1
  1981. @@japanwatchconnection Yet the ES outsells the 5 Series and E Class combined in America. And if the ES needs excuses for not having folding rear seats, the 5 needs an excuse for costing an extra $20,000. Both are fine cars with different strengths, and your namecalling is juvenile.
    1
  1982. OTOH, some people simply like paying half as much for gasoline.
    1
  1983. No. The LS is very opulent inside. It has a lot of obviously expensive details that are just impossible to match at the ES's price.
    1
  1984. I think you missed the point. This "wannabe Tesla" has neither the Tesla's crappy workmanship nor its EV range anxiety, just near silence and 45 mpg city.
    1
  1985. The screen was moved toward the driver for '22 because it was changed to a touchscreen, a huge improvement. The car is available with several different wheel styles in three sizes; the black F Sport wheels are only one of them. Not enough power? It'll get to 60 in just over six seconds, and that's with initial FWD wheelspin; once underway it's faster than that suggests. How fast does a quiet, plush cruiser with a limo-sized interior have to be?
    1
  1986.  @JoeTakagi00  The new one doesn't.
    1
  1987. Apple CarPlay or Android Auto; nav; lots of secondary audio functions like radio presets and tone controls; some of the sexier climate control functions like the Climate Conciege; trip computer stuff; viewing the onscreen owner's manual while in Park; others.
    1
  1988.  @ekimandersom4478  Close. Touchscreen began in 2022.
    1
  1989. Yes, although the engine note isn't as pleasing.
    1
  1990. If that's how you feel about it, you will just buy a loaded Camry, and Toyota will like that just fine.
    1
  1991. Huh? As of 6 or so months ago, I think Lexus was unique among BMW, Audi, Mercedes and themselves in not offering a full electric car. I believe they just now introduced one.
    1
  1992. And you may be kept waiting for up to another year. When it comes, expect small styling changes with a more RX-like grille and more LS-like rear quarter windows. The big changes will be in the engine bay, where Crown-like hybrids will enter and the V6 will exit forever.
    1
  1993.  @europec2082  The GV70 isn't really in the same class as this car. It's more luxurious and costlier.
    1
  1994.  @europec2082  The GV70 is not remotely in the same class as this car. It's not similar in size, comfort, reliability or performance. it's not even a sedan.
    1
  1995. I'm not the Car Care Nut, but you can find several threads on the ES board of Club Lexus that discuss this subject in detail and make several specific recommendations. If you want a reco here, Michelin Primacy is one of the several good choices.
    1
  1996. Is. What's your point? "lol"
    1
  1997. And you should be able to keep driving it for a long time to come.
    1
  1998. So lemme get this straight. Avalon was different from ES in three meaningful ways you coulld see and feel, but they're the same. Got it.
    1
  1999. For you, there's the Mazda CX-5 and CX-50.
    1
  2000. A warranty pays your bill after you're stuck by the roadside, but it doesn't stop you from being there.
    1
  2001. '23 or '24 will be the last year with a naturally aspirated V6, probably any V6, and probably the last year with a conventional torque-converter transmission rather than a CVT (already unavailable on the hybrid).
    1
  2002. Lots more differences than that, of course. Fabulous car. Of course, it also cost a lot more when new.
    1
  2003. Scotty doesn't deserve him.
    1
  2004. Just a recent style change.
    1
  2005. So I see you missed the other posters who called them shills for Toyota and then Honda.
    1
  2006. The IS is completely unrelated to the GS except for engines. It's a chopped-wheelbase version of the chassis used for the GS, which was built for rear-wheel drive and therefore had enough room for the transfer case that AWD requires. Even at that, the IS 350 AWD has a conspicuous bulge in the driver's floor that really bothers some people, so it depends on your definition of "able to fit."
    1
  2007. TLX for steering and handling. ES for the 3 R's of room, ride and reliability.
    1
  2008.  @bimmerapologist  Maybe he just faked that he wasn't sure.
    1
  2009. The ES outsells the similarly sized BMW 5 and Audi A6 in America. I frankly have no idea what you're talking about. And Lexus did have a dedicated high-end platform in this size sedan, which they based the GS on. But nobody bought it, so they discontinued that model in this country.
    1
  2010. I can't prove it, but my suspicion is that Toyota used this low-volume car as a test mule for this engine before installing it in the new generation of LX/Land Cruiser SUVs and pickup trucks.
    1
  2011.  @TaijiArban  Yes, and the Maxima is pitched to a different audience as a sports-oriented sedan.
    1
  2012. Similarly equipped, the G80 is about $10,000 more. The G80 is a more premium car in mechanical sophistication and high-end toys. It wins the test drive and loses over the course of long-term ownership.
    1
  2013. I think so.
    1
  2014. Ironically, the big rip on that generation of TL was that enthusiastic cornering was ruined by FWD understeer. The big difference (I test drove that car) was that its ride comfort was really pretty awful. Even in the non-Type S base version, I could feel every pebble in the asphalt.
    1
  2015. Remarkably, they've stayed in business nonetheless.
    1
  2016. '22 owner here (stating my bias). For reliabiility only, yes, I'd choose the '18, and the numbers bear that out. Although, those unfamiliar might get a misleading impression from "the issue is still there," they've used the proven mitigation that quality makers do and cheapo's don't. The transmission had some rough shift programming the first couple years, as a lot of these multi-speed boxes do, but in durability terms it's still a solid torque-converter unit and not some CVT or dual clutch, and it should last the life of the car. As for the '18, from what I've heard and read, yeah it's super reliable -- but the "better" part of the '18 experience ends the second you turn the steering wheel.
    1
  2017. Check out the long-form video where they talk about how hard it is to make a living at this. You're probably being much better compensated for your boredom.
    1
  2018.  @randy74989  The ES won't replace the LS. In fact, in the mid-term at least, it simply won't be replaced (unless by an electric car or an SUV). There are simply no sales to "replace," as nearly no one is buying it.
    1
  2019. Oooooh! Sarcasm!
    1
  2020. I was seeing an article last week with some really plush minivans you can't get in America.
    1
  2021. Bespoke. Shares nearly nothing with the ES except some interior bits the ES borrowed in order to add some prestige.
    1
  2022. They did mention the 48-volt mild hybrid. Did you watch it with the sound on?
    1
  2023. Probably a bad idea because they would have near a half-inch larger diameter as well as wider sidewalls, throwing off your speedometer and odometer. Look for what's called "plus zero" tire sizing.
    1
  2024. That was a hoot.
    1
  2025. Color helps. They've got a nice red and a nice blue that very few people order. A spoiler is also on the factory options list.
    1
  2026. This sounds like a misunderstanding, basically. If your dream car was an Elantra N Line, you need to know that Mazda is not the Zoom Zoom brand anymore. They're on the prowl for BMW customers now. Not the M customers, but the luxury-tush variety. And as Alex said, the transmission and suspension are "inferior" mostly if you're comparing up to pricey rivals.
    1
  2027. True, but they improved its function 100%.
    1
  2028. You're correct. Lexus in general is publicly reported to have stricter standards for panel gaps, parts flaws, and the number of layers in the paint than Toyota-branded vehicles.
    1
  2029. Jack, my compliments on doing a thoughtful job of defining tech terms like rear steer and I6 in the undercar segment for those who don't know them. It's obvious you took to heart that comment when you heard it in the AMA session. While I happened to know these bits, there will be others I don't, and the effort is appreciated.
    1
  2030. Cramped interior? Have you sat in this thing?
    1
  2031. An ashtray insert that fits in the cupholder is available from the aftermarket.
    1
  2032. Among other things, let this be a lesson to you to go to independent mechanics for your oil changes. The Toyota dealer is gouging Lexus owners.
    1
  2033.  @naveenthemachine  I've marked your damn fanboi words. About a dozen times now across multiple threads. Maybe Step One before the burial of Lexus would be for Genesis to not fire its chief executive every year and start building its first US dealerships. Baby steps. Give it a damn rest.
    1
  2034. They actually moved it 4" forward from 2021 because they added touchscreen capability and needed it to be within the driver's reach. They did the same thing on the LS as well.
    1
  2035. I'm sorry. If it helps at all, one reason they did those knobs was to provide family resemblance to the $100,000 Lexus LS and LC, so at least they look expensive.
    1
  2036.  @ricknowak4582  Yes, the "ram's horns" at the top corners of the gauge hood. I think they work better on the LC, which has a generally zoomier-looking interior and some pretensions of performance.
    1
  2037. You might think it was a Lexus until the timing chain failed.
    1
  2038. Here's why I bought one then: It was more capable in winter than an LS, prettier inside and out and a better drive than a GS, and an entire class above an ES.
    1
  2039. The point of this ES is to appeal to Chinese buyers. You and I are not the target audience for it.
    1
  2040.  @ricknowak4582  If you have an ES that's 2019 or newer, and you're in the States, I don't think it's possible for you to have a Luxury or Ultra Luxury without leather seats. In fact, on any Ultra Luxury I'm aware of in this generation, the leather is standard but the Mark Levinson sound sytem is not. One tell is that if you have curving stitching on the seat and backrest cushions your body touches, you have leather upholstery; if it's straight lines only, it's NuLuxe. Both have perforations.
    1
  2041.  @ricknowak4582  The ML was a free-standing option available on any trim level. The NuLuxe was the only available upholstery on any model except Luxury and Ultra Luxury. I think the surround camera was standard on Ultra Luxury and maybe on Luxury, and unavailable on any other. It does get confusing.
    1
  2042.  @ricknowak4582  If i had to choose between ML and leather, I agrree, ML would win. And NuLuxe isn't bad by any means; owners say it's super durable and carefree. I aiso agree about the caramel. That peanut butter color doesn't say "luxury car" to me.
    1
  2043. The ES hybrid drivetrain is also incredibly reliable. A bunch of components are electric instead of belt-driven so they'll never break. Brakes routinely last over 160,000 km before pad changes. And the battery, which is often what people think will expensively fail, is holding up in New York City on Prius models for over 400-500,000 km in brutal New York City taxicab use. On these new cars, Lexus (at least here in the States) has put a 190,000 km warranty on the battery.
    1
  2044. Big back seat, 40 mpg, never breaks. Makes total sense.
    1
  2045.  @ryster2220  Not just Honda's. SUVs make less objective sense than hatchbacks for a lot of people. Most are going for the sexy look or the false perception of superior crashworthiness, and will never take it (voluntarily) off the road.
    1
  2046. We don't have to imagine it. They had it in the Lexus GS 350. Sadly, without a German badge on the hood, people didn't buy it.
    1
  2047.  @rightlanehog3151  But wouldn't both cars sink?
    1
  2048. What Toyota do you own, and what are your quality complaints with it?
    1
  2049.  @naveenthemachine  My God,. Naveen, you came on an Acura review board just to crap on Lexus AGAIN?!
    1
  2050.  @naveenthemachine  Backpedal all you want, but you've admitted on another thread that you have a standing feed of Lexus videos set just so you're alerted to go bash them.
    1
  2051. I've driven one of those. While this can't match the quality of interior materials at its lower (adjusted for inflation) price, it's a legitimate comparison.
    1
  2052. Pretty decent, though not the best. Ping-pongs a bit, but reduces driver fatigue.
    1
  2053. The Lexus version adds an A-shaped brace behind the seat that doesn't leave room. It's for structural rigidity. Lexus has done it on the ES for 30 years.
    1
  2054.  @ThisNoName  The "sales guy" didn't tell me that. But behind the safe protective cover of Internet anonymity, feel free to condescend away.
    1
  2055. MPG is only half the story. The reason you can't buy that Golf anymore is smog. Diesels inherently spew out so many particulates (i.e., smoke), VW couldn't find any way to bring them down to legal levels except by cheating. And if you think particulate emissions don't matter, take one look at the news photos coming out of New York City this week.
    1
  2056. Real classy comment there. What do you suggest he do about it?
    1
  2057. Would you have been as shocked if he loved it just as much? I thought he was quite fair. Objectively, this car was overpriced (C/D came right out and said it), and history proves it was an abject and immediate sales failure. The value for money simply wasn't there.
    1
  2058. Discontinued. But still out there as used, very durable and still a fine choice if you can cope with the horrid mouse-based infotainment.
    1
  2059. Now they do, but only with the standard Camry 4-cylinder engine.
    1
  2060. I think you're absolutely right. Here's the tell: It's well known that a car gets a bump in sales after a restyle. In 2013, the new Avalon was pretty, and sales jumped. In 2019, it was so damn ugly that sales went DOWN from the final year of its predecessor, despite functional upgrades. I personally was in the market in '21 and wanted to like the Avalon, but I just couldn't get past the combination of the catfish grille and the misshapen rear quarter window lines, and I stretched to an ES partly just to avoid the abomination the Avalon had become. Too bad its successor the Crown might be even uglier. It'll flop, too.
    1
  2061. This, all day and twice on Sundays. And I owned a Maxima for 15 years and later rented a newer one for a week.
    1
  2062. Wow, an awful lot of people seem to like their approach.
    1
  2063. Define "should." We should all go to the dentist too, but there's a reason many don't.
    1
  2064. Till 2023, they made it standard, but they got so much ridicule for the "geezer" feature that they dropped it entirely.
    1
  2065.  @Ebergerud  I'm with you, Eric. Two of the reasons I jumped for my '22 were to get the V6 (I needn't have hurried) and the CD player (glad I did).
    1
  2066. The ES is also made in Kentucky, but on a separate assembly line with handpicked workers trained in Japanese techniques, and built to tighter tolerances and higher quality standards. They kept the ES and killed the Avalon because the ES sold better even though it's higher-priced and more profitable.
    1
  2067. This is more economical to run. Sequoia can tow more.
    1
  2068.  @Mylifeislegendary982vd3-vI  We may be wrong, but we're not alone. Here's Savagegeese in 2022: ""The (ES 350's) naturally aspirated V6 is something that people are going to miss when it is gone. No four-cylinder or turbocharged four-cylinder can replace the refinement, smoothness and the harmonics it produces."
    1
  2069.  @Mylifeislegendary982vd3-vI  Well! A guy online who calls himself "legendary" says all 3 of us are wrong, using an invented number. Guess I'll just slink away ashamed.
    1
  2070.  @Mylifeislegendary982vd3-vI  No matter how legendary you may be in your own mind, you are not the one who decides whether I can post. Whatever your real name is, dear.
    1
  2071. The bias runs thick in this post.
    1
  2072.  @amanasd26  Agree. I think not a lot of owners are going to let go of these.
    1
  2073.  @ElijahsAba  Terrific to hear. As with all things engineered to their limits, frequent changes with full synthetic can only improve one's odds.
    1
  2074.  @JohnSmith-te2yg  Yes, I know that, and I've even recommended it to family and friends. But the reality is that very few will do it.
    1
  2075. Properly executed, a plug-in hybrid involves no more complexity than a regular hybrid -- it just has a larger battery. We've had a plug-in hybrid in our family, a Ford C-Max, and it's given thoroughly satisfactory service. And given the right use case, in this instance a 60-mile highway commute twice daily, you can use no gas for half of every trip and still be free of range anxiety on longer journeys.
    1
  2076. I don't prefer it either, but they're far from alone. To name just one, the Trax is reeking with Chinese parts, which for my money is worse.
    1
  2077. Before '22, I'd agree. But now the screen is a touchscreen, so you never have to use the damn trackpad.
    1
  2078. ES, 2026. LS, probably never.
    1
  2079. If you can get gasoline anymore.
    1
  2080. What in heaven's name does this have to do with a Lexus ES review?
    1
  2081. Except normal maintenance IS cheap. What part of this car's normal maintenance (provided you have the sense to avoid the stealership) isn't?
    1
  2082.  @interstate366  The reason was solidity, build quality, and materials quality (very good vs. fantastic). But the TL was so good that nobody could get past the price difference. The differences were all too subtle.
    1
  2083. If they try markups on this mess, it'll sit in showrooms until it's growing moss on its north side.
    1
  2084. Grab the base-model Lexus ES 350 this year before they're gone forever. Regular fuel. Last chance.
    1
  2085.  @anondjfizzle  Thanks! I didn't know that.
    1
  2086. Regrettably, in the wrong circumstances your example might be pretty memorable.
    1
  2087. Extra points for the Python reference. :.) You'll get your powertrain wish in '25.
    1
  2088. The Lexus GS had all of those and nobody bought it, so they killed it.
    1
  2089. Honda Civic Type R, I think.
    1
  2090. That ran me off as well. Not just from BMW, but from the German Big 3.
    1
  2091. If it were AWD, it'd be the GS. A much better-driving car that was so much more expensive to produce, it went under.
    1
  2092. Has ambient lights, but the light pipes on the dash and doors are so faint you can hardly see them.
    1
  2093. Isn't this pre-ignition chamber similar in concept to the old stratified-charge Honda CVCC concept (also to reduce emissions) in the early '70s?
    1
  2094. I kinda think they're doing that on purpose.
    1
  2095. Glad you didn't sign your real name to this comment, because it really is embarrassingly bigoted and stupid.
    1
  2096.  @claypool0  I see you posted this a long time ago, but nobody answered. Probably same answer now as then: Most reviewers say it's either this car or the Genesis G80.
    1
  2097.  @joneswon8094  Yes and no. It's so dim, I don't know why they bothered. Get in absolute pitch blackness and look along the stripes of wood trim on the dash and doors.
    1
  2098. My understanding is that the sedan platform didn't have enough space underneath for both the V6/8-speed powertrain and the AWD transfer case. That's why they, and you, have to choose one or the other.
    1
  2099.  @naveenthemachine  No, Naveen, it doesn't show that. You've smeared Lexus up and down this thread. You've consigned it to Infiniti oblivion. You've declared that Genesis (bad reliability ratings, still doesn't even have its own dealers for Chrissake) has replaced it. Shouldn't you get, like, a hobby or something?
    1
  2100.  @Legalluminary-Zura  GS 350 was on a completely different platform than Camry/Avalon/ES, the RWD-based platform shared with the IS. Very little shared there except the V6.
    1
  2101. As a longtime Toyota master technician, the Car Care Nut is not a fan of Hyundai quality. He's done videos on it.
    1
  2102.  @MeynMotorGroup  I think that like FWD, this was part of the price of coaxing a luxury experience out of humble family sedan bones. Without a platform engineered for sports-level rigidity at a high cost, I'm guessing they need more band-aids to achieve comparable chassis rigidity.
    1
  2103. What kind of question is this? Over half of car buyers are women.
    1
  2104. Unless you get the business tax break, there's really no point in leasing an ES. The Germans and Koreans are nicer although less durable. Buy Japanes or lease German.
    1
  2105. If nobody's ever told you that you're a repulsive bigot, let me be the first.
    1
  2106.  @michaelschwab9563  Absolutely. I had an absurd online debate with somebody who insisted RWD was better in the snow. Had to be someone too young to remember when you had to try it for real.
    1
  2107. @@japanwatchconnection I understand, but I live in the snow belt. Try RWD here on the wrong day and end up in a ditch.
    1
  2108.  @jameswhite1319  Yes, and that's important to note. Drain and refill, NEVER flush.
    1
  2109.  @naveenthemachine  Truth. And this is coming from naveen, the original hater. You're making progress. Now bring this attitude to the Lexus reviews!
    1
  2110.  @naveenthemachine  Oh, this time I'll agree with you. There's no defending the UX. I'm talking about your Genesis cheerleading and smear jobs on other Lexuses like the ES.
    1
  2111.  @MeynMotorGroup  Kevin, love the refreshing candor of your replies in this thread. They're every bit as entertaining as the video itself.
    1
  2112. I'm sorry, but did you mean to post this in reply to some other video? The Lexus ES 350 has a conventional torque-converter automatic transmission. Savagegeese even mentions it in the first minute of the video.
    1
  2113.  @javaman_54  All's well. About that e-CVT, though: It's a "CVT" only insofar as it doesn't have fixed gear ratios. It does do the annoying whining thing, but on the ES 300h they used a 3-layer insulation sandwich in the firewall to quiet it. Mechanically, it has nothing whatsoever in common with those crap Jatco CVTs that puke their guts up in Nissans. No belts, nothing. It's actually unbelievably reliable and durable. See the videos of Car Care Nut for details, but any Toyota or Lexus hybrid will last forever except the battery, and even that part is warrantied now for well over 100,000 miles. Don't be shy of it at all.
    1
  2114. I can understand that, but I think Toyota felt they were losing those customers to SUVs anyway and wanted to have sedans that offered some unique appeal to buyers, like sportier proportions.
    1
  2115. That's because it mechanically was virtually the same car. Cadillac XTS, ditto.
    1
  2116. I don't think they said it's a bad thing. I think they're saying more charging options are better than fewer.
    1
  2117.  @yousef.al-assaf  This configuration doesn't physically have room for both the V6 and AWD. The next one in 2025 will probably have the same powertrain choices as the Crown or RX, with a hybrid, maybe turbo, four and AWD.
    1
  2118. The Corolla is a trustworthy appliance and a fine value, but I think it's a stretch to suggest that either of these cars is worse than a stripper Corolla in absolute terms.
    1
  2119. "Have to navigate through 3 screens just to turn on the AC"? Just touch the temperature switch to lower the number until it kicks on. "Why in the world would Lexus put a CD player in this car?" Because their market research correctly identified that people like me badly wanted one. Why are you complaining that it HAS more features than you care to use?
    1
  2120.  @jhollie8196  "She does not like to... so you have to." That does not follow. She does not like to, so she CHOOSES to inconvenience herself instead. This is like saying she does not like the light switch, so she "has to" manually unscrew the light bulb on the ceiling every night with a stepladder.
    1
  2121. Yes. Side by side, it's clear the family resemblance is quite deliberate.
    1
  2122.  @ThinkPeace3  My thought too, and not a very sincere ad at that.
    1
  2123. Two-thirds of buyers are hearing what you're hearing.
    1
  2124.  @inodesnet  I'm not sure that was Bose's doing. I notice the base non-Bose system (reportedly made by Pioneer) also puts the front subwoofers there.
    1
  2125. They came close. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ3LMi_YUFM
    1
  2126. You again? How long have you been posting stupid crap like this?
    1
  2127. Let me help. You've seen the last iteration of a gas-powered LS sedan.
    1
  2128. If it's accompanied by a price increase, yes. If it isn't, no.
    1
  2129. CCN has over a million subscribers AND runs an independent repair shop. You really don't value his time, do you?
    1
  2130. That's nice, but your Lexus GS350 is discontinued.
    1
  2131. The wood is real veneer, BTW.
    1
  2132.  @ckone671  It's not the same as auto start-stop, because the drivetrain can move the car by either gas or electric propulsion. So, unlike a gas-only car that shuts down the engine, you still have instant forward propulsion the moment you hit the gas, even though it takes a second for the gas engine to come on. It's part of the reason it gets otherwordly gas mileage for such a large car.
    1
  2133. You would? In a Corolla?
    1
  2134.  @lawrencetaylor5407  I'm entertained that you mention the coin box. I put up a post on the owners' board just because I couldn't figure out what that darn box was even for. :.D
    1
  2135.  @lawrencetaylor5407  ES 350. And I completely agree with your assessment of that box as a coin box. If I wanted to use it that way, I'd line it with sticky-backed foam, rubber or felt (just as I did in the console with the hard plastic noisemaker of a phone slot).
    1
  2136.  @stanmarcusgtv  So, you've driven the new '25 Camry then to make this comparison? In what areas did you feel the new Toyota fell short during your driving?
    1
  2137.  @thomasshort6738  The B58 is BMW's popular and sweet-performing inline Six engine, found in a lot of larger sedans and X5 SUVs among other models. its reliability is said to be improved in recent years. I know this only because B58 worship is a running joke on YouTube's excellent Savagegeese car review channel.
    1
  2138. Planned obsolescence. They're engineered to be reliable for the duration of the lease and then fall apart.
    1
  2139. Not keen on the snickering elitism here.
    1
  2140.  @mojojojo_BB  It has grown remarkably -- artistically and commercially. And, speaking personally for myself, up yours.
    1
  2141. No extending thigh cushion because they held it back for the Luxury. No AC hard button doesn't matter in real life because if you turn the climate control to a lower temperature number, the AC comes on (and the seat coolers automatically along with it).
    1
  2142. '18 and '19 are completely different from each other. Test drive before you buy.
    1
  2143. The move 4" forward with the screen so you could touch it really hurt the cohesiveness of the look on the refreshed '21.
    1
  2144. You are aware this guy has spent decades being in this engine up to his elbows, right?
    1
  2145. Reliability, durability and dealer service are not Genesis strengths. But in the categories of interior "niceness" and riding in quiet comfort with limo-like room, there's a consensus that the G90 wins, no contest.
    1
  2146. Some do, some don't. Best to look up the individual car you're considering.
    1
  2147. You do know well-engineered $50,000 cars should let you use their power, right?
    1
  2148.  @TheD189379  If 2017 is "10 years ago" as you just said, then this is 2027, right? P.S. Consumer Reports' survey shows the '21 Sentra as "Much Worse Than Average" in reliability for "Transmission, Major." Researching may be free for you, but I pay cash expressly for access to that reliability data, and I read it carefully. In advance, I accept your apology.
    1
  2149. @ Your clever riposte seems to reveal you're the one who didn't get my point about "10 years." And I cited the Sentra because it's one of the several Nissans that shared the fundamentally similar, fatally flawed Jatco CVT shared with the Rogue and most other Nissans of the period. But if you're as sophisticated as you claim, you already knew that, which means you're not being stupid—you're being dishonest. Why is it so hard for some people to just admit they were wrong?
    1
  2150. At which time, an affordable yet family-sized car like this from a trusted brand will sell really well.
    1
  2151. MPG isn't the only factor. The size and weight of the V6 in this small car would make it handle more ponderously.
    1
  2152. Most reviewers who compared the two said the Avalon's top JBL stereo option was notably inferior to the Mark Levinson available in the ES.
    1
  2153. This is true of top-line ES's sold outside the Americas, too. I think a couple things are in play: For one thing, in many countries a luxury car's owner doesn't drive it, but rather sits in the back. Also, in the US I think they're trying to hold the line on price and not step on the LS's toes.
    1
  2154. I'm not CCN, but... that's a lot of miles. I suspect this has been an Uber car or similar, so I'm wary of it on that basis alone. Get an independent pre-purchase inspection and demand to see its service records before you buy. Also be advised that although the 2018 was an exceptionally reliable year even for this very reliable car, it is not very similar to this car except for its engine, so most comments in this review don't apply to it.
    1
  2155. I think it has more to do with Toyota wanting to have a car to upsell to the older Camry repeat buyer who's grown more affluent and wants something to move up to. Now the Crown will play that role.
    1
  2156. Lexus uses a couple of brands as OEM on new ES's (Michelin, Bridgestone). Like most OEM tires nowadays, they're cheapo gas mileage specials and the traction is trash. I got immediate traction improvement, although certainly not a cure, by swapping them off immediately.
    1
  2157. And you'd win your lunch.
    1
  2158. I don't think an RX or NX is all that much nicer anymore.
    1
  2159. Comments don't get much lamer than this.
    1
  2160. They do. It's called the Highlander, Venza, Crown Signia and RX.
    1
  2161.  @pixel_therapy  Absolutely not. Every carmaker in the industry gives SUVs a markup over their sedan variants, because people will pay it.
    1
  2162. Would you buy a Mitsubishi on a Nissan chassis from a Mitsubishi dealer whose parent brand might be out of business in this country in a couple years?
    1
  2163. Borrowed directly from the LS and LC, I think.
    1
  2164. This is exactly the charge that was leveled at Lexus with the original $35,000 LS 400, and it seemed to work out all right for them.
    1
  2165. Favorably.
    1
  2166. Yeah, but what is "this class"? The ES costs thousands less than any other luxury brand of comparable ride, room and size. With all its direct competitors discontinued, it's kind of a class of one.
    1
  2167.  @mrrrr1921  That's the point, though. They made the car you say you wanted, and the ES outsold it 20 to 1. A dedicated platform with RWD/AWD cost more to build, and buyers didn't back up their claimed enthusiasm by being willing to pay for it.
    1
  2168. Mark has been up front throughout that he admires the engineering effort that went into the cars, loves to drive the resulting vehicles, and appreciates the cooperation he's gotten from the obviously passionate car-nut founders. I personally find it distasteful that you come onto his page and accuse him of taking bribes for positive reviews based only on that evidence.
    1
  2169.  @aaronbanks7555  Yeah, Aaron, you accused them of "an advertisement for the car... after they just had an interview with the head of the company... maybe a bit bias(ed)," that's not an insinuation of taking bribes at all. All justified because you personally "maybe disagreed with what they said." Glad I'n not your spouse, or your employee, or your kid, or anything to do with your dishonest, character-smearing self.
    1
  2170.  @aaronbanks7555  What drives me nuts about your comment is that it's like this is the first YouTube car video you've ever watched. Geese is just about the only car tester on YouTube who DOES openly rip a half-assed car. Watch his Buick Encore video to see him offend a carmaker big enough to really make his life inconvenient.
    1
  2171. They will, starting in late 2024.
    1
  2172. Your wish is finally granted for '23.
    1
  2173. Lexus did win a category. Did you watch?
    1
  2174. GM did it for decades.
    1
  2175. Yeah, but why accept the negatives of this category at all if you don't need a really usable 3rd row space?
    1
  2176. He did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1h0IKtMjQ&t=0s
    1
  2177. Great car, but not very similar to this one except for the engine. Entirely different platform and even a different transmission.
    1
  2178. You aren't the only one who's asked that. Several reasons, I'd guess. One is to stay faintly competitive in handling with its German rivals. Maybe a bigger reason is that all cars today must be tall and slab-sided to meet side crash regulations if hit by an SUV. If the wheels and tires were small, it would look ill-proportioned. So, all carmakers have resorted to low-section tires and big, blingy wheels to visually fill the void. BTW, the base model ES has smaller 17-inchers.
    1
  2179. Yes, it is. And you can't get those anymore from Buick or anyone else but Lexus.
    1
  2180. They do. It's called the LS 500.
    1
  2181. Not terribly similar to the ES in actual use. Smaller, louder, stiffer and faster. More a (superior) Lexus IS competitor. The ES more resembles the FWD version of the larger, now extinct Acura RLX.
    1
  2182. I think the HR-V DOES look reasonably handsome. It'd be held in higher regard if it didn't have a paralytic lack of power. That thing would be transformed by a turbo.
    1
  2183.  @gregorytriandafilou7972  I did exactly the same thing with a USB stick for about 300 songs, although I find I mostly use my phone now because I find it much easier ot change the playlist on a whim or can play Pandora lists. I, too, seldom use the CD player anymore.The only thing I find maddening is that the lawyers have frozen out various functions except when the car is stopped, but I guess that's a function of our litigious era.
    1
  2184. I'm sure they are. Chances are they're targeting the buyers they feel they were no longer getting with the Avalon, which is to say, people who aren't badge-conscious but are under 70. Hence the SUV-like height and powertrain characteristics. A Lexus version will, of course, be more... Lexus-like, especially inside.
    1
  2185. I'm one of the 13 people in America who agrees with you.
    1
  2186. Alfa is back, all right. Back to the brink of extinction. Seen the days of unsold dealer inventory on various Stellantis models lately?
    1
  2187. Disagree 100% on the humor, but yes, they are informative. You'd probably prefer Car Buyer's Guide / Alex on Autos. Geese does Geese.
    1
  2188.  @djsone3499  We're, uh... old. :.)
    1
  2189. Yes. Anything called an ES 350 is a V6.
    1
  2190. Seen luxury brands' prices lately?
    1
  2191.  @naturelover2292  No, not in America at least. They are an extra-cost dealer or port-installed accessory.
    1
  2192.  @naturelover2292  If it's like most accessories of this kind, it's got a power connection just sitting idle near it and would be a simple plug-in. You can probably find this accessory's PDF of installation instructions to confirm that.
    1
  2193. They seemed pretty fair about it to me.
    1
  2194. Lazy, arrogant post. Not false, but reflects zero research.
    1
  2195. Your post is automotive enthusiasm in its purest form. Good on you for appreciating the small pleasures, smart smart smart of you to pursue therapy when you needed it, and good on your dad for handing down his fine automobile to you. This is one of the most refreshing posts I've read in a long time. Thank you for sharing it.
    1
  2196.  @lexusformetwo7097  With this generation, that's no longer true. The battery is now under the back seat, raising it an inch but leaving the trunk intact.
    1
  2197. Terrific. How much slower is it for you on regular?
    1
  2198. No. Sedan buyers want a sedan, and Lexus buyers are willing to pay more for the badge. I don't think those two will get cross-shopped very much.
    1
  2199. No fold-down rear seat, check. Bad driving dynamics, not really. Yeah, it understeers and it wheelspins exasperatingly from a standstill (better tires help some). But steering feel is decent, it doesn't roll and lean excessively and is quite competent on expressway ramps and two-laners, the brakes are very good, and the engine's passing power at speed is a hoot. Fuel economy is in the 20s, perfectly presentable for a car of this size and power.
    1
  2200. Broader audience considering the car.
    1
  2201. Width isn't the same, either. The CX-50 is lower, longer and wider.
    1
  2202.  @JamaicanMeCrazy  Compare the size of Mazda with the size of Toyota or Hyundai as companies, and their reuse of components across models will start to make a lot more sense. They simply don't have the development or tooling dollars their competitors do.
    1
  2203.  @alanhumphrey4198  Good Lord, you posted here just to take a swipe all these years later at... Obama? BTW, I don't think Cash for Clunkers was a bad idea at all. First it stimulated American industry coming out of a depression, and second, it got some cars off the road that were literally spewing as much pollution as 50 new ones. Win-win.
    1
  2204. Then you should be really excited to pick up a $5k VW Phaeton right now. Enjoy your service loaners.
    1
  2205. Boxed in by tighening MPG and emissions requirements, I think the car makers feel they have no choice.
    1
  2206. Because that would have been impolite. :.)
    1
  2207. Actually, they still run commercials for them, and they still sell well -- over 30,000 a year in the US.
    1
  2208.  @idcnetwerk9265  Charming GS story ya got there. There's a saying in statistics: "The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'." And surveys prove that failure was not common.
    1
  2209. ​ @idcnetwerk9265  Your simplistic "engineered better" shows a basic ignorance of the nature of engineering. Engineering is inherently a compromise of competing priorities. When a Porsche is built in such a convoluted way that you have to disassemble the fender to replace a clutch, it's not because it was designed by bad engineers; it's because performance was a higher priority than serviceability. Lexus is well known for making the opposite choice. I took your invitation to look it up and consulted the neutral 200,000-person Consumer Reports 2021 reliability survey, far more representative statistically than your p!ssed-off individuals making posts to complaint boards. Result, from April 2021, page 94 (I'd post it here except YouTube won't let me): Lexus GS Electrical system reliability is Better Than Average for 2013, '14, and '15; and Much Better Than Average (the top grade) for '16, '17 and '18 (not enough responses to list for the highly similar '19 and '20). In advance, I accept your retraction and apology.
    1
  2210. Yes. The Camry and Avalon always had it, the ES has never had it for 30 years. Reason: Toyota believes luxury buyers value extra solidity more than cargo capacity. so the ES gets a stiffening brace behind the seatback that blocks the opening.
    1
  2211. No. The engine has both port and direct injection whether you get it in the ES 350, Avalon or Camry. There are VW models that are DI only while their Audi counterparts have both, because VW doesn't care if you have trouble as a buyer of its price leader, but that's not how Toyota rolls.
    1
  2212. That's all you're judging it by?
    1
  2213.  @Victic005  In a popular-price car, why splurge on cast aluminum with a torsion beam?
    1
  2214.  @noahkim8377  Then if Lexus is the new Cadillac, Crown is the new Buick.
    1
  2215. @ Well, what's the median?
    1
  2216.  @Cakewalk.  You didn't answer me whatsoever, you did the opposite and simply shouted your opinion over me a second time (and now, a third). I said they're still the best-MPG gas luxury sedan, and the most reliable. You answered that those things don't matter to you. I heard you. Twice.
    1
  2217. Because minivans threaten your self-image.
    1
  2218. On the Luxury and Ultra Luxury trim levels.
    1
  2219. The latest Lexus models are debuting a mutated version of the grille that's flat on top and has grates only below, like the new RX. But that doesn't necessarily look either more discreet or better.
    1
  2220. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. Other makers have already dropped out of offering this configuration in a midsize sedan, including Hyundai, Kia, Cadillac, Buick, Chevy, Lincoln and Ford. Toyota division just killed the Avalon, and in a year or two the ES will join the 300 and Charger as the last to die.
    1
  2221.  @andym1223  Yes and no. The ES as a sedan in its current, non-Crown body style will definitely survive. But there's every appearance the non-turbo V6 will not.
    1
  2222. For bulletproof reliability and smoother shifting, '17 or '18. For better performance and handling and more modern electronics & safety gear, '19.
    1
  2223. You are aware they've been doing the brace behind the rear seat that precludes a fold-down seatback on the ES for 30 years now, right?
    1
  2224.  @CadexLaw  That's valid. I think the genius of this video is that both priorities are important, and which one wins for you is an individual thing. Although I have an ES, I've had more athletic cars in the past, and I wish I could have it all without compromise.
    1
  2225.  @michaels3003  We're in murky territory here, but a decade ago I read a message board where a poster came on who appeared to authentically be Mr. Mark Levinson. He asserted that he already had very little personal involvement with Lexus stereos anymore. A similar situation prevails with various other famous audio names used in cars, such as Macintosh and Fender. One exception I'm aware of is Bose, which is heavily involved in engineering stereos for the specific cars they're used in, but Bose has always approached all their products including non-automotive ones in a similar consultant role.
    1
  2226.  @michaels3003  Oh, yes. I certainly believe a real engineering effort has been made for those stereos.
    1
  2227. You can have a CVT without belts. By definition, it only means exactly what it says: the gear ratios are continuously variable, not fixed. The Honda iteration merely simulates those gears (actually at the expense of efficiency) because we find traditional rev fluctuations aesthetically pleasing.
    1
  2228.  @accordinglyryan  Yeah, there's a lot of smarter folks than me who've explained that in much accuracy than I can. I just try to encourage those who might be needlessly turned off because of the likes of Nissan's Jatco crap.
    1
  2229.  @accordinglyryan  I understand and agree. Part of the reason I got a new ride last year was to get some of those traditional technologies before they're gone.
    1
  2230. Yeah, that was weird. It's actually smaller, particularly in back, than the ES, Avalon or the Accord.
    1
  2231. Also be advised that Mazda responded to the complaints that the CX-50's steering was too heavy by lightening its effort for 2024. So it could also be that the complaints you heard simply didn't apply to the car you drove.
    1
  2232. Fragile flower, aren't we?
    1
  2233. Partly. For 30 years, the Camry/Avalon's folding seatback has been replaced on ES by a trapezoid-shaped structural brace to lend additional chassis stiffness, for ride and handling and to reduce rattles, creaks and squeaks. To that extent, yes, it could be called a noise reduction measure.
    1
  2234. Regular.
    1
  2235. I'd get a '21 for two reasons: The early ones had problems with too-quiet rear speakers, and some '20s had a bad batch of fuel pumps. But if you haven't tried the touchpad infotainment, make sure you're okay with it, because lots of people absolutely aren't and the car didn't get a touchscreen until '22.
    1
  2236. As an option on non-F Sport versions.
    1
  2237. Depends on your priorities. Both are fine, reliable cars. Drive both in a variety of situations before you decide.
    1
  2238. Look away, then.
    1
  2239. This is self-glorifying "Look at me! I got an S Class!" garbage.
    1
  2240. I suspect they shrank the fuel tank for several reasons: The new car got better MPG so they could. A smaller tank saved weight and therefore previous MPG. It also saved space so they could deliver a bigger combination of back seat and trunk room at a given overall size.
    1
  2241.  @MrGames4Arab  The 2019 ES and Avalon, along with the 2018 Camry, started over with a completely new platform. They're still FWD, but they handle much better than the old ones. Unacceptable? That's a matter of opinion. Remember the Germans and Genesis with AWD and a V6 also cost over $10,000 more and aren't as reliable. It's all a matter of what you value.
    1
  2242.  @SDF5150  I'm biased by the fact I'm coming out of an Acura RL. I felt its AWD system provided added security and peace of mind because it maintained traction amazingly even in crappy conditions or if I made an idiotic driving mistake. FWD simply can't match that, and I felt it added to the luxury experience.
    1
  2243. Like the LaCrosse did?
    1
  2244. I had that reaction in pictures, but in person it's the business.
    1
  2245.  @dfort5203  I don't think you're telling the truth, D.
    1
  2246. Lower-tier sedan from luxury nameplate, comparable in price.
    1
  2247.  @user-rh2nn3tl9J  True. Just trying to answer your question as you asked it. Irony or rhetorical questions tend to get lost in translation in this medium.
    1
  2248. I agree 100% about the touch screen. I'm posting this 4 years later, so whatever on me. But if you're still paying attention, they did add a touchscreen in '22.
    1
  2249.  @jayrob1222  Michelin CrossClimate 2, Michelin Primacy, Vredestein Quatrac Pro.
    1
  2250. Yes and yes. They add a triangular brace there.
    1
  2251. @japanwatchconnection So you've been spamming Lexus threads like this over a four-year period, huh? I suspect you've never read any of the voluminous quantitative surveys that confirm your suspicion is provably wrong.
    1
  2252. That's nice.
    1
  2253. I predict that the Crown's sales will prove that sedans are dead, from non-luxury badges at least.
    1
  2254. Not so. I'm 1.88m and my head fits with room to spare.
    1
  2255. Cost. Component sharing with the FWD Camry lets them undercut the Germans on price-for-size.
    1
  2256. If Lexus sales are in a slump, the ES isn't the reason. It continues at this writing to easily outsell the same-size BMW sedan, the 5 Series.
    1
  2257. He's a veteran car service technician.
    1
  2258. CU survey data doesn't support your statement.
    1
  2259.  @anitajerkin  I believe that you're sincere, but that's a survey with a sample size of 4.
    1
  2260.  @anitajerkin  200,000, the sample size of the Consumer Reports reliability survey. It says most BMW models vary from above- to below-average, then sharply deteriorate around the 5-year mark.
    1
  2261. Most buyers agree with you. LS500 sales are absolutely abysmal, and it will be discontinued soon.
    1
  2262. I'm guessing you meant you wouldn't take one even for free. I don't believe you.
    1
  2263. And a usable third seat. That kind of matters if you bought one of these for the reason every buyer does: because they need the third seat.
    1
  2264. Dunno. Could you be any more homophobic? Doubt it.
    1
  2265.  @ericssonerick6972  Less wind noise on the Luxury and Ultra Luxury trim levels. They have upgraded front side glass. If you own and it bothers you, you can retrofit that glass. Sound system, I see your point, but try turning Surround off and slide the fader 2 steps rearward. It's much higher fidelity than the Civic's Bose; try it with higher-fidelity souce material and it shines.
    1
  2266. If you read past the third paragraph, they're teenage fourth owners of 15-year-old cars.
    1
  2267. Reportedly he lived far from the photoshoot locations, tired of the long commute and quit.
    1
  2268. What's with you a******s who come on these guys' page and accuse them of corruption and bribe-taking with no evidence whatsoever? You're at least the third one I've read on this thread. How would you appreciate someone barging into your workplace and doing this to you? What the hell's wrong with you? Can't go home and beat your girlfriend since the restraining order?
    1
  2269. And you weren't. Get counseling.
    1
  2270. I'm confident you thought this post was clever.
    1
  2271.  @attackroflchopter4403  Where are all these Toyota Camrys I keep reading about that look like a Lexus LS?
    1
  2272. At the very worst, examples of these will last long enough for you to get a sweet-running used one.
    1
  2273.  @travelseatsyellowlab  To the Avalon's credit, it appears to be actually holding its value better than the ES. I did a quickie lookup on Kelley Blue Book on used car prices of 2019's. It was not quite apples to apples because I compared the top-trim Avalon Touring to the second-from-top ES Luxury, but the Avalons were valued at $32k and the ES at a barely higher $33k. Scarcity might be a factor here, of course.
    1
  2274. How do you feel about Tesla building equipment into the car and then shutting it off unless you pay extra?
    1
  2275.  @GG-pu8rt  IMHO, the NuLuxe is perfectly nice, but the leather is nicer. It feels more luxurious, and it has that divine leather smell.
    1
  2276. Your point being...?
    1
  2277. Whoah, pretty defensive. Here, show me on this doll where the MDX S Type touched you. Do you work for GM, by any chance?
    1
  2278.  @martifilipponi1024  Are you suggesting this vehicle is in any way comparable to the BMW X7? Besides having 4 wheels and 6 seats, I mean? P.S. Car and Driver ratings: X7 gets 9.5/10 ("large and lavish with delightful powertrains"), versus XT6 at 6.5/10 ("a misstep"). It's not just Geese.
    1
  2279. ​ @martifilipponi1024  I didn't hear him say that. What I got was, he thinks the XT6 should look and feel more special than a Hyundai Palisade, and it doesn't. You keep trying to lower the bar for this car to limbo height so GM can get over it. Quit making excuses for failure, and GM might feel compelled to actually try -- the Corvette shows what they can do when they're trying. And BTW, the 'Vette is less than $16k higher than THIS.
    1
  2280.  @martifilipponi1024  Marti, you're embarrassing yourself. Edmunds on the XT6: "Once you start stacking the XT6 up against the competition, it begins to lose its luster. We were underwhelmed by its poor drivability. On top of that, it seems a bit overpriced." Edmunds on the Palisade: "This well-rounded SUV is already one of our top picks.... The Palisade is a stress-free companion in both city and highway driving. There's minimal road and wind noise. The Palisade really blurs the lines between a luxury and non-luxury vehicle. Value and quality are everywhere." Car and Driver on the XT6: "6.5 out of 10. Skews more toward Target than Louis Vuitton.... Its cabin is plagued by downmarket materials... We like the silky and quick-revving six-cylinder in, say, a reasonably priced Camaro or Colorado. But it's out of its element in a 4700-pound three-row luxury-brand crossover." Car and Driver on the Palisade: "9.5 out of 10. Our test drive highlighted the Palisade's smooth ride and quiet cabin."
    1
  2281.  @martifilipponi1024  Soooo... I should ignore Savagegeese, Car and Driver, and Edmunds, but I should have complete faith in Marti Filipponi's snippy "Trust ME!" comments. Got it.
    1
  2282. Yes, many would. But which would you rather pay for?
    1
  2283.  @burntnougat5341  Yeah, but one of them won't leave Grandpa grabbing his cane and limping down the roadside.
    1
  2284. That's the problem with benchmarking where your competitors were yesterday.
    1
  2285. I agree 100%. (The AWD with the feeble four-cylinder engine doesn't count.) Thing is, the component sharing with the mass-market Camry keeps the ES's cost down below its competitors, and the platform doesn't have room for both AWD and the Six. it is what it is. Two years from now, they'll probably have AWD but with a turbo Four, just like the new RX. And it won't be all that nice.
    1
  2286. Thank YOU, Mark and Jack. Media? I watch you guys more than I watch all non-sports TV combined. It's clear you work extremely hard to deliver the best-quality content. My wants? 1) Yes, keep being smart, sarcastic, honest, funny... not dumbed down. 2) Love it when you guys cover attainable cars. 3) Agree with the poster who said your Q&A's are valuable, especially about carmakers and specific cars. And again, thanks.
    1
  2287. If you think Lexus will lose their identity without the V6, just wait and see what happens to nearly ALL automakers' brand identity when they're all propelled by bloodless electric motors.
    1
  2288. Well said.
    1
  2289. Wouldn't work, because the platform lacks the space for AWD with a big engine. FWD with 400 HP would melt the tires while leaving you at the starting line.
    1
  2290. 540i and A6 V6 are also an extra $20,000.
    1
  2291. Probably to have a family resemblance to its sister model the Regal, which actually WAS the Opel Insignia.
    1
  2292. Did you watch the video?
    1
  2293. Awright, a German fanboi has entered the thread!
    1
  2294. Have for 30 years.
    1
  2295. They did have a fine V6 AWD sedan in this class, the GS 350. It cost $10,000 more than the ES, so nobody bought it and it got killed off. Like it or not (and I don't either), the lower price and poorer handling is what the people want.
    1
  2296. And they should be superior to this, since each of them comparably equipped costs a lot more than this.
    1
  2297.  @vvanguard  Glad to help.
    1
  2298.  @luptonpittman6520  Yeah, Lupton, I'm with you this time. That is a somewhat puzzling comment.
    1
  2299. This was a year after a dashboard refresh, and only 2 years before a whole new generation. There was no financial case to be made for that kind of major retooling.
    1
  2300. Went touchscreen for 2022.
    1
  2301.  @ouch9326  "most even dedicated spots car buyers dont actually enjoy car much." Uhhhh.... Sorry, but not always true.
    1
  2302. @ Then there are gonna be a lot of frustrated older people, because those big V8s are all but unavailable anymore in anything but big body-on-frame trucks.
    1
  2303. It has ambient lighting, but it's so faint that you can hardly see it even in total darkness. It does also have footwell lights, though.
    1
  2304. No seat heaters in the back, either. They get a lot of complaints in online forums about it.
    1
  2305. Huh?
    1
  2306. I'll answer the ones I can: A/C is very strong. Headroom is very good in the front, won't work if you're much over 6' in the back, an inch worse than that in the back seat of the hybrid (battery is under the seat). Yes, the back seat has a tunnel bump and a third adult wouldn't be very happy there. Driver's seat has an extendable support on Luxury and Ultra Luxury; which also have have back-window power sunshade; Ultra also has rear-door manual shades.. Don't know why you're asking third-row questions about a sedan. Key looks like any other modern car's fob, with a physical key that hides inside; for an extra $100, you can get one that stores in your wallet like 3 credit cards. And for more detail, start watching Alex on Autos.
    1
  2307.  @michaels7984  Quality on both will be good, but quality on this will be better.
    1
  2308. He did a separate review of the ES300h in 2019 that answers that. He prefers the hybrid.
    1
  2309. True. But the resulting package is pleasant to live with.
    1
  2310. Jack is not stupid. He directly addresses that he recognizes the German competition as leasemobiles. He simply says that for him personally, he'd rather have perpetual payments than drive a car he finds numb. I get it.
    1
  2311. This is the only YouTube channel of any kind that I subscribe to. Full stop.
    1
  2312. Depends on what you value. For driving fun and aesthetics, A4. For reliability/durability and space, ES all day.
    1
  2313.  @seraros3663  Geese is my fave, but there are a lot of good ones out there. Doug DeMuro is good at what he does. Jason Cammisa does exotics great. Alex on Autos is very practical in a Consumer Reports vein.
    1
  2314. If room and ride comfort/quietness are lower priorities for you, you should definitely be looking IS instead.
    1
  2315. Good!
    1
  2316.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, you've posted the same comments so often for so long, my lips move in unison before I read them. Genesis good, Lexus bad, ES is a Camry, yadda yadda yadda. Get a hobby.
    1
  2317.  @upbeattvraw-hiphop8242  Different interior trim puts it just under the EPA threshold for full-size interior volume; the Avalon was just over it.
    1
  2318. Vibrations are not a normal part of the ES driving experience; I think you were driving an example with a problem. Wind noise, however, will be lower in the Luxury and Ultra Luxury trims, which have noise-reducing front door glass as well as wheels with road-noise reduction chambers.
    1
  2319. The question is whether anyone will ever perfect an AI for truly safe and dependable autonomous driving, or whether we're going to collectively lower our expectations of automotive safety the way we've lowered our medical ones to "Million dead? Screw it, that's good enough. Back to work with you."
    1
  2320. Very few people, as it turns out.
    1
  2321.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, anybody who has read ANY YouTube video comments on the ES in the last 3 years knows that you own a damn V6 Camry, and that it's a much, much, MUCH wiser choice than the ES. They've also "learned" that the ES isn't any quieter or nicer in any way, and that Lexus is being devastated by Genesis and is teetering on the brink of insolvency. Give it a rest already.
    1
  2322. Just 1 decibel louder, according to Car and Driver. Note this is more true of the top Ultra Luxury model, which has several soundproofing measures absent on the other trims.
    1
  2323. Oh, c'mon. I'm old, and I thought he was hilarious. This was the 4th time they reviewed this generation. The debate format set up by Jack's remarks let them air a different viewpoint than their previous reviews, and highlighted why the F Sport treatment was a poor fit for this car.
    1
  2324.  @amohtash  Is a retiree who's lucky enough to afford a $54,000 sedan "vulnerable and marginalized"? I'm squarely in the target market, and I don't feel assaulted a bit.
    1
  2325. Turns out you're wrong. They sell over 30,000 a year in the US alone -- more than either the 5 Series or the E Class.
    1
  2326.  @Biochemechanic  I was with you until you said "From an environmental cost (standpoint), it’s really debatable." No, it's not. That's simply ridiculous, especially given the resource conservation aspect of the fact that the Prius will offset its battery disposal problem by outlasting the Jetta about 10 extra years. Signed, A Reformed VW Owner
    1
  2327. I don't need to answer you. Tim already did. 29 does not equal 54, and that's not debatable by any rational person. But if you'd like to debate it, have at it.
    1
  2328.  @Biochemechanic  Sarcasm Attempt Detected.
    1
  2329. Q: How you do say "I've never owned a German car" without saying it?
    1
  2330. Nah, it tanked after Year One (20,000) and Year Two (12,000?). Acura cut off all ad support and left it to its fate.
    1
  2331.  @giofromtexas2679  Similar but not quite the same. ES has better sound insulation, stiffer structure, better interior materials, tighter build tolerances, extra layers of paint, and better standard and optional sound system.
    1
  2332. Unfavorably.
    1
  2333. Sorry about the delay, but to answer your question more fully just in case it still matters: Nearly all reviewers agree, no, skip the AWD and get the FWD V6. The coarse, straining Camry 4 in the AWD version is so mediocre it kills the luxury character of the car, not just the acceleration. Car and Driver described it as like "a Camry for twice the money."
    1
  2334. Through the front tires?! And people think it has wheelspin now.
    1
  2335. You can still get a base Civic with the venerable old naturally aspirated 2.0 K Series engine.
    1
  2336. This car was discontinued for poor sales less than 6 months after he said it didn't appeal to a broad enough range of buyers. You may not like his "manliness," not that he should give a crap what you think about that, but history quickly proved him right and you wrong.
    1
  2337. Wow, that's a pretty wild competitive set. What did you end up getting?
    1
  2338. Not too late to trade.
    1
  2339.  @mauriciolacruz  In the states, the ES has a big price advantage over its same-size European competitors. It's priced here against the A4, C Class and 3 Series, and as a result it handily outsells the bigger European models whose room and comfort it can pretty much match.
    1
  2340.  @mauriciolacruz  Yes. I think we all get the best we can afford, don't we? It's why there are economy cars, and regular cars, and entry luxury cars, and full-on luxury cars.
    1
  2341.  @mikegleghorn5437  I think you have it exactly backwards. I'm no big fan of the screens either, but I think they're there first and foremost as cost cutting that can be passed off as a feature. It's gotta be pricier to build and install a bunch of mechanical controls than to just reprogram one touch screen; just think how cheaply you can buy a generic Android tablet for the home.
    1
  2342. Which did you choose?
    1
  2343. Obsolete style, obsolete tech, milking a few last sales to old buyers based on brand equity built up by superior previous models.
    1
  2344. @@japanwatchconnection We just saw your other post in this thread bragging that you own a BMW. Go back to Mom's basement and resume your masturbation.
    1
  2345. Styling and cost. Some of the structures under these plastic bumper covers are little more than a block of styrofoam. And they're not required by law to take an impact with no damage, just no damage to safety systems. (Some can't even do that, so don't ask me.)
    1
  2346. But you CAN get the pano roof on the Luxury and Ultra Luxury, which have nicer interiors and a better ride anyway. Reviewers like Savagegeese have said outright that the F Sport suspension makes no sense on this car because it spoils the creamy ride quality without the handling gains to justify it.
    1
  2347. There was no power or efficiency penalty directly noticeable by the user, but that was because the engine was detuned at the factory to run smoothly on the lower octane fuel. Raising the ante to premium frees the engineers to advance the timing and/or raise the compression to deliver a greater combination of power and economy. Now, some cars' electronics let you run regular or get more power by running premium, like current Mazda turbos. I don't know whether Lexus "recommends" or "requires" premium-- big difference.
    1
  2348. You don't get around much, do you?
    1
  2349. And your Lexus dealer will keep the ES.
    1
  2350. Frankly, I think all these "it's ugly, it's hideous, it's rip-your-eyeballs-out repulsive" comments are a bit over the top. Is it too anonymous and jelly-bean generic for the price? Probably. Is it a horror to look at? No. Don't be silly.
    1
  2351.  @ClassicXL86  "Owned" this space? No, never. But they came a helluva lot closer with the LS 400 and LS 430.
    1
  2352. Read fewer reviews. The car is not especially prone to oil leaks. In addition, the battery is not going to cost you a cent in less than 8 years or 100,000 miles, because that's what it's warrantied for. And based on the torture testing of NYC Prius taxicabs, many last far longer than that. I can't speak to the ES, but a Prius battery replacement in the costliest scenario (new OEM battery, dealer installed) is about $4,000, which isn't so bad amortized over the gas you saved.
    1
  2353. I'm old enough to be your grandpa, I have and like CDs, and I'm not about to apologize for it. You'll note that the '23 has lost the CD player, probably for good. In its place is... nothing. You happy now?
    1
  2354. Nav has never been standard on the ES. What is your basis other than thickness for saying the metal quality is "cheap"? And "very cheap paint and clearcoat"? That hasn't been either my observation or my experience. Yes, you're absolutely right about the dashboard material being crap, and if your dealer is in denial about your sunroof, you need to change dealers. But...?
    1
  2355. Is that a clever way of saying it's using simple technology?
    1
  2356.  @philhenderson3516  You'll notice the Koreans have abandoned the V8 too, except as a option on the glacially slow-selling G90.
    1
  2357. You can get wood trim on the wheel, dash and doors in non-F Sport trims, but unfortunately most interior colors come with flat black stain taht looks bland as you say. I wish they hadn't copied the Germans in this regard.
    1
  2358.  @mob4ever  Your post is not likely to age well, sir.
    1
  2359.  @dinhscot  I agree with you. I was responding to the reply, "No they won't."
    1
  2360. All mass-market brands will always offer better price-value than luxury brands, because the economics of a luxury label are dictated by the smaller sales volumes and resulting need for higher profit margins per unit sold. Lexus exists for those who are willing and able to pay more to get more than a Toyota.
    1
  2361. Not bad at all, for my head at least. Some are much worse.
    1
  2362. Lexus and Toyota have always let other makers troublesheet a new technology and then adopt it themselves. Some people are annoyed by that. Others of us appreciate them for it.
    1
  2363. Make sure you have enough headroom. Some people said the same-chassis Crown sedan had surprisingly little.
    1
  2364. Yes, it helps the problem, although nothing eliminates it.
    1
  2365.  @MrToastyYT  Yeah. As Geese hinted, you really couldn't fix it without installing a limited-slip differential. Even brake-based limited-slip, I think, wouldn't quite get the job done. And I'm not aware that any such diff is made that fits this car.
    1
  2366. Actually, until '02 it kinda was meant to compete with the sports sedans too. When Lexus introduced the IS, they felt free to make the ES more of a dedicated luxury boat instead.
    1
  2367. Turns out you weren't alone.
    1
  2368. Jon, you're not only bigoted and rude, you're incorrect. One could say you're among the ones who should be blocked from YouTube comments.
    1
  2369. What's he supposed to do about it? Buy your voice box?
    1
  2370.  @MrAlexDelarge  I think (or at least hope) you'd be a bit more merciful if you knew how poorly Google pays YouTubers. They make a lot of money on other people's content here.
    1
  2371. @ Who pays for it?
    1
  2372. Uh, get this car if you want this car. If you get a Camry, you'll be disappointed to find you got a Camry instead.
    1
  2373.  @Victic005  I'm sorry, I'm confused by the question. "Do I" what?
    1
  2374.  @Victic005  No.
    1
  2375. $40k base, $55k loaded as shown here.
    1
  2376. Yes, and every car with torque vectoring AWD needs to also be a $45,000 full-size luxury car like this one is. Why do people post incoherent crap like this?
    1
  2377. And both moved to an all-new frame for 2019.
    1
  2378. Hopefully with better roads and better restaurants.
    1
  2379. Same reason McDonald's offers Super Size. The extra stuff costs them almost nothing to provide and the profit margin is much bigger. Most will take it, yet they can still advertise an attractively low starrting price.
    1
  2380.  @alex99398  Wow, you held off for five whole lines before you descended to the personal attacks. This guy makes no attempt to disguise that he admires Toyota products—he's worked on them for a living for decades, what did you expect? I'm calling out your original comment that "of course you are not going to have anything bad to say." He has, and if you'd watched his other videos as you claim you did, you'd have heard it. That proves you're a liar, no matter what hygiene device you compare me to as you gutlessly hide behind an Internet pseudonym. BTW, some people like me for my honesty. Pity you can't say the same for yourself.
    1
  2381. "I don't want them to never give me a test car again."
    1
  2382. Let me be the first and probably the only one to say, take your time on the popcorn. You're not all that interesting.
    1
  2383.  @SHUB281  How about you give your real name?
    1
  2384. And for 30 years, the Cadillac DeVille and Fleetwood and the Buick Electra were just beefed-up Chevy Impalas, and buyers loved 'em and bought a zillion of 'em. Now the Audi A3 is just a spiffed-up Golf, and the BMW X1 is just a dolled-up Mini Countryman. So?
    1
  2385.  @henryRodriguez4073  It's well publicized that the ES, Avalon and Camry share bones (as do the Corolla, Prius, Highlander, RX and more). The reason I answered is because people will be misled if that makes them think the cars look, feel or act the same. They don't, any more than the Avalon and the Corolla do. (And I answered your post later because that's when I saw it.)
    1
  2386. Maybe so, but that means you'd give a hard pass to every Lexus ES of the past 32 years, and it's clear from historical sales figures that not everyone has agreed with you.
    1
  2387.  @mynameIan  Including me, according to you.
    1
  2388. And for folks like you, Lexus makes the IS.
    1
  2389. Because America doesn't have enough upscale sedan buyers to interest Lexus anymore. China is where the buyers are, so this car is designed for them.
    1
  2390. Tremendous car, but the newest one you can find is now 15 years old, and nothing that old is quite as reliable anymore.
    1
  2391. That'd be great. Good luck!
    1
  2392. Don't be too blown away by the Mark Levinson stereo. It's simply a brand name, made by Harman Kardon like most of the other stereos on the road.
    1
  2393. Why do you get pleasure from seeing other people humiliated for their honest opinions?
    1
  2394. They'll up the power numbers with a turbo 4 hybrid, but the smoothness of the V6 will be history.
    1
  2395. You know, these videos are meant to entertain. It's not like Jack didn't know that Mark would be sitting next to him to provide a counterpoint to his jokes, which were, quite obviously, jokes.
    1
  2396. Both in Kentucky. The Avalon very well, the ES even better with better workers and higher product standards.
    1
  2397. Not sure what you're referencing, but the ES is the runaway best seller in the US in its class.
    1
  2398. To be fair, this was the fourth Savagegeese review on this generation of the ES. So you have plenty of other chances to hear a lengthier dissertation on its driving dynamics, and they had a need to distinguish this video from the previous ones.
    1
  2399. I'm amused that another poster above outright calls Mark a shill and a whore for Toyota, and you call him a Toyota hater. These guys can't win.
    1
  2400. Every additional powertrain combination adds both production complexity and federal certification cost. You can make glib Internet wisecracks about shareholders, but cars are a low-margin business, and if Subaru goes broke they can't price any cars affordably for anybody.
    1
  2401.  @aaronbritt2025  Aaron, I was keenly conscious that I was talking about manufacturers, not dealership chains.
    1
  2402.  @MeynMotorGroup  I think it's more like they stepped up the ES because they knew the GS was already a dead car walking. You nailed it up above with your other comment that not enough people appreciated driving dynamics.
    1
  2403. "Clearly the only reason to build a factory in Saudi Arabia was because they own 60% of the company." Pretty good reason, wouldn't you say? Don't you WANT General Motors to build cars in America?
    1
  2404. That's true less because of the grille's large size -- the facade is just a piece of plastic -- and more because today's cars pack a lot of sensors, cameras and pricey LED lighting into the grille. It's the price of the features that buyers like to have.
    1
  2405. Lemme help. The CX-50 Hybrid will be cheaper. The Crown Signia will be more luxurious.
    1
  2406.  @mathisnotforthefaintofheart  The GS hybrid is a great vehicle, but it is not available with AWD.
    1
  2407.  @mathisnotforthefaintofheart  My last car was an SH-AWD Acura. There are a few fundamentally different AWD systems, and their sensitivity to tread-depth and tire size mismatches varies, but yes, some are like that. I also agree that AWD doesn't make you invulnerable, and some think it does; I'm always half annoyed and half amused to see Jeep Wrangler drivers going 50 in a 30 zone in a snowstorm, oblivous to the fact that they can't stop or turn in the stuff any better than anyone else.
    1
  2408. You obviously disagree, but Lexus has been making the ES for 30 years with a stiffening brace behind the back seat that makes fold-down rear seats impossible. I think they decided that luxury buyers valued the extra rigidity and body tightness more. Do they? I guess you'd have to take that up with Toyota.
    1
  2409. Yes, reportedly the UL is quieter. In addition to the laminated front side window and noise reduction wheels, the frame also has horizontally mounted Yamaha "performance dampers" mounted to the front and rear of the car to quell vibrations. In the real world, testers say the main difference comes from the glass, in reduced wind noise at highway speed. And yes, the thinner rear side windws quite probably are to save money. Even at its cost, the ES is built to a price, which is why it lacks some features of cheaper cars like a heated rear seat.
    1
  2410. Less risk of problems with a moonroof that doesn't open, though.
    1
  2411. He's the YouTuber, and I suspect he can't help how he sounds. Show some humanity, please.
    1
  2412. I think some of those deleted electronic features are because of chip shortages. Mercedes has deleted some, too.
    1
  2413. Thanks for sharing. What was your point in posting this on a Lexus thread?
    1
  2414. Similar. Not quite the same. More sound insulation, better interior materials, better stereos, better ride quality, closer assembly tolerances, richer paint, better dealer experience.
    1
  2415. Glad you enjoy your F Sport, but for the sake of those reading this and shopping, it should be noted that the adaptive suspension is in fact stiffer than the regular suspension even when adjusted to its softest setting.
    1
  2416.  @ARentz07  I agree, but you said it more nicely than I would. People who post statements like this aren't very serious about saying accurate things.
    1
  2417.  @RatBürgerSk8  Agree.
    1
  2418. Then you're going to need the Luxury or Ultra Luxury trims, because the base trim and F Sport versions of the ES have "NuLuxe" vinyl.
    1
  2419. Lazy armchair-tester criticism. Geese made abundantly clear that if your priority is to prevent "boredom," both the Camry and the ES are not for you. If you value the things the ES does best, it does them better than the Camry.
    1
  2420. If a frog had wings...
    1
  2421. Comparable to those cars in price. Comparable to the E Class, 5 Series, A6 and G80 in size and room. Inferior to all of them in steering and handling. Lexus offers the smaller RWD/AWD IS and the larger FWD ES at similar prices, but aimed at different audiences.
    1
  2422. Agree. I think it's because the high-priced automakers are self-consciously trying to brag there's no performance loss compared to their best gas-engine models to justify the pricing.
    1
  2423.  @naveenthemachine  "I later on refinanced and now paying 2.5% interest." So, you "saved up for months" so you could take on monthly payments?
    1
  2424. Because they couldn't fit the AWD transfer case underneath with the bigger engine of the ES 350, and the 300h is exclusively an FWD hybrid system.
    1
  2425. As commendable as this truck is in many ways, no commentary is complete without acknowledging the (literally) massive irresponsibility of making a vehicle with a blunt cliff-like vertical face 5 feet high that completely blocks the driver's view of anyone smaller than an adult. People are getting killed because of this. It's another Unsafe At Any Speed expose waiting to happen. Problem is, buyers are rewarding them for it.
    1
  2426. You're right, and this has really hurt the LS. You can read the LS forum and find owners who are really steamed about it.
    1
  2427. Chris has improved. The first time I saw him, he was frankly unwatchable. He's now taking the time to formulate sentences and thus avoiding the stammering of everyday speech, which is a big deal on camera in a way it isn't in everyday in-person conversation. He's not Mark or Jack on camera, but I don't think that's a realistic expectation. As for the vehicle, you knew the manager would never utter the real driver of these civilizing changes -- "Bronco" -- but competition improved the breed here.
    1
  2428. LS owners are really annoyed about it.
    1
  2429. You just got aroused enough to scream about it on YouTube.
    1
  2430. Lots of other people have done that already, and it's a poor investment of a car reviewer's time to review a car that's about to be discontinued. Short version: The Maxima goes fast in a straight line, handles better than the ES but not as well as AWD or RWD rivals, and loses in room, ride and reliability.
    1
  2431. Fair criticism of the coarse-engined ES 250. The hybrid ES 300h and the V6-powered ES 350, you'll be more impressed when you drive one. Smoother ride, better sound suppresion, nicer interior.
    1
  2432. Yes, except Toyota sold 295,201 Camrys last year.
    1
  2433. I know this is a smart @ss question, but the actual answer is that it depends on what kind of girl you want. If you want the kind of girl who's impressed by a Corvette, no, but god help you.
    1
  2434. Absolutely. Some of the best-built cars ever made. Coming from an era when Japanese cars were derided as cheaply built MPG specials, Toyota staked its corporate prestige on building a rival to the Germans that would be absolutely immune to quality and durability criticisms. Many of the LS's advances in metallurgy, soundproofing and control operation went into its little brothers the ES and '92 Camry., and of course the build quality was unbelievable as you note. I still see many ES's of every generation tooling around.
    1
  2435.  @oceanzu6585  Mostly agree. The "Crown" name has gotten complicated. The historical Crown is a sophisticated RWD-based sedan that shares its underpinnings with the Mirai. The car sold as "Crown" in the US is an unrelated car on a Camry-related FWD-based platform. This car is related to that one. The Japan-market RWD-based car is better, and I wish they'd used it.
    1
  2436. @japanwatchconnection Actually, they used the $100,000 Lexus LS and LC as inspiration for several interior elements, including those two stubby knobs. The problem with using them here is that they're for drive modes and traction control on/off, which you'll almost never use on a non-sporting car like this.
    1
  2437. Probably less cushy, but in the Luxury and Ultra Luxury trims, more adjustable.
    1
  2438. Well, this is the most original comment in this thread, at least.
    1
  2439. "These cars were trash." A bit careless with language, are we?
    1
  2440. Size of a 5, price of a 3.
    1
  2441. Even more impressive to some of us, it won't be delivered with misaligned body panels and trim, a chorus of squeaks and rattles, be unserviceable by most of the garages in America, and have features you paid for arbitrarily switched off by the manufacturer.
    1
  2442.  @tyronewilson7890  LS is much bigger outside, but they're damn near the same size inside. In fact, Lexus rates the ES as having more legroom in the back.
    1
  2443. I think they figured they already have the Venza, RX and NX for that.
    1
  2444. Or you could praise him for the very adult behavior of reporting on the car's suitability for people who aren't exactly like himself.
    1
  2445. But you really can't talk about "segments" with no regard for price. Is the BMW 5 in the same segment as the Sonata? If not, why not? Price.
    1
  2446. What does this even mean?
    1
  2447. You might like the Lexus better when you hear that what looks like the lack of a feature IS a feature. As it's had for 30 years, the ES replaces the void behind the rear seat with an added structural brace for better rigidity. Evidently Lexus feels that helps the car better meet the ride and handling expectations of luxury car buyers.
    1
  2448. Try the rear door pocket for the owner's manual. It fits there.
    1
  2449. If you watch their full video from the Stingray introduction, they are extremely respectful of the engineering and value achievement it represents. They just think the base model got defanged to appeal to the people who will actually be buying it.
    1
  2450.  @Pamlicojdjdj1487  I'm making a different point. Some owners just commute, and for them 200-mile range is OK. This is a family road trip car.
    1
  2451. Many have criticized it, but Lexus has done this on the ES for over 30 years to allow for a stiffening brace in its stead. At least they're consistent.
    1
  2452. Yeah, but this was the fifth video Savagegeese has done on this generation of the ES, and they named it best in class in their award video 2 years ago. They've made that point lots of times. This debate format was not only funny to watch, it did a good job of presenting both the pros and cons of the car.
    1
  2453.  @Tommy-Eagle-USA  No, no vested interest. I'm just an ES owner who needs a hobby. :.)
    1
  2454.  @ninjamaster3453  Will rust shorten its life, though? I'm in the "Rust Belt," and I see clean-looking 10 and 20 year old ES's all the time. Yeah, they might look icky on a lift and have an occasional nut that needs torching, but they seem to run just fine. Is there any reason to believe they've suddenly downgraded the quality of their steel from previous model years?
    1
  2455. Available as a deaier-installed kit. See the exchange higher up in this chat.
    1
  2456. You and crabbycripple need to hash this out.
    1
  2457. For my money, the previous ones were all a bigger mess. Did you see the 2016 with its white plastic all over the middle of the dash? It not only made you crane your neck sideways to see the gauges, it looked like a damn urinal.
    1
  2458. It's to your credit that you can evaluate a practical car for its intended use, and with equal fairness evaluate a luxury good like this one in light of its intended use. You're right: The fact that this is rapidly obsolescent and not terribly sensible is not relevant here. For those like me who need to care about that, there are lots of other cars.
    1
  2459. Because they're making money hand over fist selling this technology instead to the millions of people for whom EV charging limitations aren't practical?
    1
  2460. The whole car is more sporty in the TLX. The ES F Sport is for ES buyers who want a bit of flair with their Lexus. Buyers with hard-core sporting intentions won't and shouldn't buy it.
    1
  2461. The Camry got a complete redesign with an entirely new underlying platform in 2018. In 2019, the Avalon and ES followed suit with a lengthened and upgraded version of the same new platform.
    1
  2462.  @georgealex19  Congratulations. And thanks for sharing your experience!
    1
  2463. "Finally"? They've been playing it with the Sienna for 3 years. So much so, they just made a public statement this month claiming they're finally going to knock it off.
    1
  2464. Believe it. It's already gone from the RX for 2023, It's gone from the new "Crown" Avalon replacement, and it'll be gone permanently from the ES no later than '24 or '25. Gas mileage regulations are sending it, ironically, the way of the dinosaurs the fuel is made from.
    1
  2465.  @luptonpittman6520  I think you're right. Thanks for the correction.
    1
  2466. Agree about the screens. And yes, this is a very long car without the room to justify it. From a space efficiency standpoint, this design is a disaster. Actually, it sounds like Lexus people would tell you if on truth serum that this car has been a disaster from various perspectives. Some in the know blame Akio Toyoda personally for meddling in the project, resulting in a car that tried to straddle the line between an S Class and a Panamera and failing at both. It's not long for this world.
    1
  2467. Depends on his priorities. Both will be very reliable and durable. The 300h hybrid will get spectacular gas mileage. The V6 350 will deliver smooth, melodious power with an engine that's about to be permanently unavailable starting in 2025.
    1
  2468. Yes.
    1
  2469.  @MrTrollin86  I agree with you, which is why I sprang for the UL with Levinson. To me, this car is pointless without leather, the great stereo and maximum soundproofing. I was just trying to answer your question as you posed it, which is what Mark recommended.
    1
  2470. How many anti-ES trolling posts have you sprinkled throughout this thread? I've already counted three. If this keeps up for 4 hours, see your doctor.
    1
  2471. Toyota unquestionably struggles with infotainment tech, but it sure isn't for lack of resources.
    1
  2472. This engine has a timing chain.
    1
  2473. For folks like you, Toyota makes... the RAV 4.
    1
  2474. The standard tires are "eco." That usually means they surrender traction for a hard rubber compound that gets better EPA gas mileage due to low rolling resistance. More traction-oriented tires reduce, but don't eliminate, the problem.
    1
  2475.  @cerny4444  To be fair, I'm old and lucky, but the fact that our whole generation has more money is not because we're morally superior, it's that we're just lucky. The generations after us are victimized by the exportation of good jobs and by college debt. Collectively, they've gotten screwed, and I feel sorry for them rather than superior to them.
    1
  2476.  @cerny4444  "I don't consider myself 'lucky' in any way as I worked hard... without the burden of debt. I guess there is always someone to blame...." Wow, if your first post "said nothing about any type of superiority," your second one sure made up for it. P.S. I, too, worked hard and got through college without any burden of debt. That's because student jobs paid better then and college cost less. Pull your head out of whatever dark region the more arrogant of people my age might store it.
    1
  2477.  @cerny4444  Your attempt to learn superior sarcasm is coming along nicely. See, you never are too old to acquire a new skill.
    1
  2478.  @cerny4444  My compliments! As invective skill goes, that's pretty good. Too bad you've already shown us who you are.
    1
  2479.  @cerny4444  There are people in the world who are born on third base and think they've hit a triple. As FDR said of his billionaire enemies, I welcome their hatred.
    1
  2480. I think that with all the mechanical upgrades, they took some equipment out in an effort to hold the price down close to the previous ES, which was about $40k base and low $50s loaded.
    1
  2481. Huh? What issue?
    1
  2482. "Even"? The GS cost $10,000 more and was an excellent car that was engineered to a higher standard with costiler parts than any ES. Unfortunately, not enough people were willing to pay for that level of excellence in a car that didn't give them a German badge to show off to their neighbors.
    1
  2483.  @caxtoneokoth5618  Experts may have said that about the ride smoothness of the LS 460 L, but the LS 500 (especially the first couple years) was absolutely raked over the coals for a crashy ride unbefitting both the Lexus badge and the luxury class.
    1
  2484. This comment is a bit of a head-scratcher. This car had expensive proprietary technology in everything from the drivetrain to the stereo. It had semi-anlline leather, Yamaha-branded wood, Brembo-grade brakes, aluminum sheetmetal up front, aluminum suspension members, carbon fiber in the driveshaft, and magnesium in the seat frames — all as standard equipment. It was built so meticulously that it was nearly the only car under $100,000 to have a hand-rubbed paint finish. Misguided, arguably. Less than a full effort, no way.
    1
  2485. Emissions regulations.
    1
  2486. It certainly is an alternative to an ES 350, and a very nice one too. It's the same basic car with just a little bit less of everything (except more ability to carry long cargo!), at a more affordable price. I think it's a very savvy buy.
    1
  2487. Thank you for this post. Unlike some of these others, at least you backed up your opinion with facts.
    1
  2488. I suspect a great many things offend you, most of which involve minority groups.
    1
  2489.  @Gemini530  Everyone can claim to be in some minority group or another. Hell, males are a minority group. You'd think that having experienced that, everyone could understand that being excluded is an icky feeling we should try to avoid inflicting on others, whoever they are. I love Christmas, but hearing someone wish me a happy holiday instead of calling out my denomination somehow doesn't bruise me at all. I'm not so Polyanna that I think we should want to be around everybody. But being non-hostile to strangers? I think it's a pretty good goal, at least.
    1
  2490. I assume they all reviewed the car under the agreement that they wouldn't release their reviews until the agreed-upon date. Happens all the time. As Geese himself recently pointed out, all testers are at the mercy of the carmakers for new cars to test. Their ball, their rules.
    1
  2491. Yes, and it always has been. Except more reliable.
    1
  2492.  @manniesupasport7977  Michael Grant is correct and you're not. Are they closely related under the skin? Absolutely. Same? No. ES tops Avalon with a more insulated underbody, more sophisticated shocks on most models, extra structural stiffness front and rear, vibration-absorbing chassis dampers on top trim levels, tighter overall tolerances and panel gaps, more layers of paint, better overall interior materials, and superior standard and optional sound systems.
    1
  2493.  @manniesupasport7977  Yes, most of the ES's extra features may someday appear on its cheaper relatives in the future. But for today's buyers, that's irrelevant. If you want the features today, you need to buy the ES to get them.
    1
  2494. I'd keep the RLX if you like it. Parts and service aren't going to be any problem. The engine is the same workhorse J Series V6 they're still using in Odysseys and Pilots.
    1
  2495. RLX is a fine car. I gave one a long look before going with the ES instead, and a lot of it was just personal style preference. BTW, I did the exact same thing in waiting for the touchscreen before I'd touch a Lexus.
    1
  2496. The new infotainment is now standard in the '23 ES.
    1
  2497.  @Mabeylater293  This was it. It isn't sporty enough to be sporty, yet it isn't as spacious or tranquil as the S Class or even the Genesis G90. Simply put, Lexus lost the plot.
    1
  2498.  @johnhenry267  Another reason is that Buick has a history in China as a brand preferred long ago by diplomats.
    1
  2499. The Avalon TRD has many fine qualities, but it is not "way faster." Same engine.
    1
  2500. Good on you for admiting the part of parenting reality that everybody wants to deny in themselves and condemn in others. Thanks for contributing this truthful post.
    1
  2501. Better tires help, but even on dry pavement they don't completely negate the problem. Tires that aggressive also start to undermine the comfort mission of the car; when C/D drove the competing Lincoln MKZ with Pilot Sports, the numbers were great but they complained the subjective behavior was really annoying.
    1
  2502. In every way? Even beyond the obvious financial and maintenance questions, Mark clearly described how the Pilot was superior in the practical family SUV design considerations like spaces to carry things.
    1
  2503. The GS drives better. Test drive the ES, and I mean at demanding speeds, before you switch.
    1
  2504.  @SIDVENOM  Legit point. FWD road manners don't compare to RWD or RWD-based AWD. The GS didn't sell well enough to survive, but we who care about road manners miss it.
    1
  2505.  @SIDVENOM  I'm no expert. But based on your own comment, a reason you'd sell is to get out of outdated tech, so the GS F won't scratch that itch. Aside from that, the IS is a much smaller car inside, so be sure you're comfortable with that before you trade.
    1
  2506.  @joelthorne7434  They have multiple greys. Buy another, or better yet, get the better-looking pearl white, red or blue.
    1
  2507. Not really a Lexus chassis. Really, it's a less roomy but fancier Prius throughout. That's a good thing for economy and reliability, a bad thing only if you expect Lexus luxury that it doesn't have.
    1
  2508.  @jimjackson4256  It's a slightly revised Prius chassis built on a Lexus assembly line, owned by Toyota.
    1
  2509.  @jimjackson4256  You're welcome, Jim!
    1
  2510. That's easy. 50-year-olds. Nobody who's 20 gives two craps about James Cameron and Alicia Keys.
    1
  2511. I see you've never kept a Hyundai past the end of the lease.
    1
  2512.  @MeynMotorGroup  I happen to both understand and care. You can rip the ES's platform (all-new for 2018-19 models and widely praised) as "unintelligently designed." I believe they designed it to be affordable for family cars, and upgrade it with the brace for the luxury-sedan role—exactly as all ES's have been upgraded for over 30 years. BTW, your review has a basic factual error in the first 15 seconds: ALL '23-24 ES's have ditched the trackpad, not just those who choose the extra-cost Technology Package with its larger 12.3 inch screen.
    1
  2513.  @davidkirkham6497  Yep, same as in the States.
    1
  2514. Yeah, but this basically IS a Civic lifted wagon, just disguised with mini-Macan styling.
    1
  2515.  @dragospahontu  Cornered a '19 or newer? They no longer roll as much as the previous ones. Whole new platform and suspension.
    1
  2516. I suspect the "Toyota Engine Flush" is the invention of a dealer service department, not an actual Toyota procedure. I'd skip it and keep my money.
    1
  2517. Like ES 350 owners.
    1
  2518. Most people agree the stereo sounds best with the fader set two clicks toward the rear and Surround switched Off. (Oddly, it sounds more surroundy when it's off than when it's on.) Note also you have to make these settings separately for every medium: radio, CD, Bluetooth, USB inputs.
    1
  2519. If you're gonna go there, don't expect Toyota-style long life for your engine.
    1
  2520. That will not happen, ever. The ES outsold the GS over 10 to 1 because its parts sharing with the Camry makes it a better value for money, which is what more people care about.
    1
  2521. We're looking in this class for a younger person. It's hard to make the case for the Subaru, Corolla or Civic when the CX-30 comes close on both reliability and price, but looks inside like your rich uncle left you an extra $10,000—AND there's no CVT drone.
    1
  2522. With a mid-sized interior.
    1
  2523. Lexus does. 99% certain you'll see six-cylinder engines disappear from the ES for good in 2026. Answer to "why": emissions regulations.
    1
  2524. That was an apples to oranges comparison. Mazda's direct competitor to the CR-V is the CX-5, which is larger and costiler than the CX-30.
    1
  2525. Pretty good. In parking situations, the top model has both parking sensors AND a 360 birds'-eye camera system. And it's got blind spot monitoring, which also helps.
    1
  2526. And you traded off a car that's uglier, less economical and 3 seconds slower to 60 than this car. What's the relevance of your post to this road test, other than to brag about your car and show everyone yours is longer?
    1
  2527. Other than the Germans and Genesis G80, there aren't any other gas-engine luxury midrange sedans left.
    1
  2528. No. It may be overpriced, but the stale claim that it's identical to a Camry is debunked when you sit in it and drive it.
    1
  2529. Speaking for myself, I'd rather get one of these because 1) the Avalon is an eyesore, 2) the Avalon's console has a hard surface right where my knee hits it, and 3) the ES is quieter. As for the ES, one big reason the ES now has an F Sport is because the GS is discontinued. Like brown station wagons with manual transmissions, many professed their admiration for the GS but too few expressed it with their money.
    1
  2530. Then why did you even watch this video, let alone post in this thread?
    1
  2531. Not really true anymore. it was true through '18, but the '19 saw a changeover to a completely new platform that's much more solid and better behaved.
    1
  2532. Has anyone ever told you that you're a jerk? If not, let me be the first.
    1
  2533. Now that they've announced the 2026, it's official: You're a prophet.
    1
  2534. "THE worst"? Not just the second or third "worse" display of stupidity (ironic there)? These guys can't win. Up above, another poster devotes 4 paragraphs to smearing the guys as bribe-takers for not ripping the hybrid system. You rip them up and down for saying the opposite about the overall car. Maybe they're not "stupid" but simply don't agree with... you?
    1
  2535. Why is that?
    1
  2536. Yes, except for electronic tuning. But Mark explains that when he drove both, that tuning made a real difference in the ES's favor. He'd previously said in his Camry V6 review that the electronics strangled the engine's responsiveness.
    1
  2537.  @fzr1000981  Yes, the Honda versions of the engine generally accept regular, while the Acura tune has higher compression and requires premium. Ask me how I know.
    1
  2538.  @fzr1000981  No, I used premium. Said right on the gas cap it was required. Lots of debate on the Acura owner board about what might happen if you ran regular in that car. One of those threads was one I started. What they said, I found persuasive.
    1
  2539.  @fzr1000981  Right. Most will say "premium recommended for best performance." This one said "Required." 11:1 compression.
    1
  2540. Is that how the Giulia has turned out?
    1
  2541. A lot of critics and even a lot of LS owners don't really love the LS. It's a massive car a foot longer, yet without a lot more room. Its gas mileage (on premium) and maneuverability in town are worse, and it's less reliable with much, much higher repair costs. You might be better off right where you are.
    1
  2542. As it turns out, not enough of them.
    1
  2543. Different class of car. TLX has much better handling, less room/quiet/luxury, and less reliability. The TLX competes with (and soundly whips) the Lexus IS.
    1
  2544. Until you need either dealer service or a car that can take you 250 miles on a suboptimal day.
    1
  2545. As it should be, since the V6 version is also much costlier.
    1
  2546. Now he does. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-SAX1q2zNk
    1
  2547.  @lostalx  "Apron issues"? Could you explain, please?
    1
  2548. The makers don't have a choice. V8s and V6s are getting pushed out by tightening MPG and emissions regulations. And with Tesla setting the tone that stock investors reward EV makers and punish gas-engine engineering, they can't throw a lot of dollars at gas-engine solutions anymore.
    1
  2549.  @BigBear--  It's not that simple, tho. "as long as those emissions are offset by other vehicles in the fleet" is the key. In essence, the maker is buying the right to sell more of the most profitable (biggest) units in the fleet by reducing the penalty that each unit inflicts. You can't stay in business selling only Yarises and Priuses. Mazda's under less pressure because it doesn't have a big fleet of 3-row SUVs and premium cars to offset (which, ironically, has put them under more profit pressure overall).
    1
  2550.  @BigBear--  Lemme try again. Carmakers get fined if the whole fleet doesn't meet a threshold. The most profitable vehicles are the polluting gas hogs. But if they're inefficient enough, you can't put enough of them in your vehicle mix to make money. (For a long time, although laws have changed some since then, Detroit sold small cars at a loss simply to buy the right to keep selliing barges alongside them.) Today, unless you're a maker like Mazda who simply doesn't have a high end to sell, carmakers feel money pressure to make their least efficient vehicles a little more efficient. Does that help?
    1
  2551.  @BigBear--  Marques like Acura and Lexus catch all kinds of criticism for the fact that a car like the ES costs 50% more than the Camry it's based on. But there'd be no reason for the division if it didn't enable a higher markup per unit sold, and by definition, the changes that make it a "luxury" product -- more power, more size, more weight from features and insulation-- compromise efficiency. At the opposite end of the spectrum, the recent Scion iQ was one of Toyota's smallest and cheapest vehicles from the consumer's perspective. Yet it wasn't particularly inexpensive to build, because it contained almost all the same elements as Toyota's larger and costlier cars, only miniaturized to fit into a four-seat car just 1 foot longer than a Smart. Toyota didn't make jack on the car. VW both stretched and cheapened the most recent Passats and Jettas, because people are more willing to pay for size than for precision. Less efficient, more profitable.
    1
  2552. Clean out of business, at the rate they're going.
    1
  2553. I may be simply ignorant, but I've wondered about those matte finishes: How do you maintain them since, by definition, it's not possible to conventionally wax them?
    1
  2554. I used to own an '03 CR-V with essentially the same engine pulling essentially the same size car. For everyday use, it's just fine.
    1
  2555. That's what everybody else views as the ES's peer group, though. And in fairness to them, who else makes a midsize luxury-badge sedan anymore? Cadillac? Infiniti? They sell dozens of 'em. Even the Chrysler 300 is gone now.
    1
  2556. I'm glad they outgrew the old piano outro. The new intro goose is much badder than the old goose, too.
    1
  2557.  @combinedeffects4799  I get it, and that's your right. But they are consistent, at least. The ES has replaced the Camry/Avalon's fold-down rear seats with a trapezoidal brace behind the seatback to add structural rigidity for over 30 years.
    1
  2558. Because its stars are so damn brilliant.
    1
  2559. For you, there's the US-built CX-50. But many disagree with you.
    1
  2560. Unlikely. He's a Toyota master technician, so he tends to stick to Toyota and Lexus products. There is a very good YouTube review of the Pilot from Savagegeese, though.
    1
  2561.  @SilverScarletSpider  I believe the new system sends more power to the rear wheels than the old one and is usable at a greater range of speeds.
    1
  2562. No.
    1
  2563. Mirai looks much better, to my eyes. The Mirai has the styling that was going to be the next GS, and I wish to heaven it would have gone that way.
    1
  2564. You might have a longer wait than you think.
    1
  2565.  @bradhaines3142  Still in Lexus ES, but not for long.
    1
  2566. How does that teill you that the water pump won't be dependable? Honest question.
    1
  2567.  @nateavery2875  It raises the stakes and cost if it fails. But it doesn't raise the chance of failure, unless I'm missing something. Really. Am I?
    1
  2568.  @michaelgrant5258  This answer unfortunately was not entirely accurate. The floorpan of the ES is more extensively insulated, covering 93% of the underbody. The ES has extra structural bracing in front across the shock towers as well as the brace behind the rear seat, reducing chassis flex and vibration. In addition, the Luxury and Ultra Luxury include Yamaha Performance Dampers at the front and back of the chassis to absorb subtle low-frequency resonances for a calmer ride, as well as the aforementioned wheels with noise reduction chambers built into them.
    1
  2569. Find a used Avalon TRD. You'd get more than the Camry for less than a loaded ES.
    1
  2570. I agree, and Mark made many of the same points in previous videos before most people were saying them.
    1
  2571. @@japanwatchconnection As someone who elbows his way into every single one of these threads just to trash on Japanese iron, you're a fine one to talk.
    1
  2572. That's because this design hit the market in 2018 as a 2019 model. You'll get your wish next year.
    1
  2573. They fixed the infotainment by going touchscreen, finally. It's still far from best in class, but it's no longer unusable and a crippling deficiency.
    1
  2574.  @LoneWolfSparty  Yes, the same platform, but not the same dimensions. Highlander and Corolla are on this platform too, but you'd never say there's no difference between them.
    1
  2575. Yes.
    1
  2576. @japanwatchconnection Finally. This explains your long series of dim-witted, disrespectful and abusive posts toward various Toyota and Lexus products. Pity that the Arteon is soon going to have to do its mopping from the dustbin of history, since VW is about to kill it for pathetically poor sales.
    1
  2577.  @bradleyscarreviews  And they're the latest from a carmaker famous for cars that have shavings in the engine and cars that burst into flames when parked and cars so carelessly engineered that some companies flatly refuse to insure them.
    1
  2578. The LS actually has less interior room in total cubic footage than this ES. It's very space-inefficient by comparison.
    1
  2579. This post is not accurate. He's reviewed several '21 and '22 Fords including the F150, Maverick and Explorer.
    1
  2580.  @kayakkevin  Gotcha. Good one, actually.
    1
  2581. Like Sashazur said. I think there's an implied comparison here to the midsize Mercedes EV sedan for 50% more money that has rear seat room for hunchbacks and midgets.
    1
  2582. I don't. At the end, he was making it plain on-camera that he wasn't really excited to be there anymore.
    1
  2583. And, uh, to cut the cost.
    1
  2584.  @clutch7366  This is the first suggestion I've heard from anyone that there is any basic drivetrain difference whatsoever between the CX-50 and the other Mazdas with the turbo version of this engine. Independent confirmation of this claim would be welcomed.
    1
  2585.  @fzr1000981  Not quite true. Size and length for ride comfirt, quietness, interior materials. Your extra dollars buy more than nothing. More specifically, I was reading info yesterday from a Toyota insider who was saying that a clear distnction under the skin emerged in 2013 and then enlarged in 2019 between Camry and the Avalon/ES duo.
    1
  2586.  @fzr1000981  I had no valve cover leaks on my J Series V6 Acura either, but I'm also not aware of them being a chronic issue on the Lexus/Toyota engine.
    1
  2587. I suspect part of the reason Lexus went V6 on this car was to debug the engine for its higher-volume future uses in SUVs and pickups.
    1
  2588. I'm old and bought one, but I really didn't give a crap what the next person thought. It's more about how it did the job of long trips (vs. Camry and Avalon, smoother, quieter and better), and how it made me feel. As Mark put it in a previous video, "It does everything pretty well, and it feels a little bit special doing it."
    1
  2589. Sadly, the GS didn't sell. I think Americans simply wouldn't buy a luxury performance sedan without a German badge.
    1
  2590. Extra sound deadening does deaden more sound, which everybody likes. It also hurts fuel economy and raises the price. All engineering is a compromise, and there's both the hybrid Forester and the taller boxier new Outback for the buyers who can afford them. I'd rather see Subaru continue to offer choices for all budgets.
    1
  2591. What did you think of it?
    1
  2592. Exactly right, thanks.
    1
  2593. Yes, unsuccessfully.
    1
  2594. In the States at least, the ES is absolutely not one of the best selling Lexuses. In fact, it is by far one of the slowest sellers in the Lexus lineup, and very badly lags the sales of the S Class.
    1
  2595. Like recalls and theft gangs, huh?
    1
  2596. Maybe.
    1
  2597. A hybrid would be a godsend for Outback, not so much for MPG as to fix the infamous Subaru start-stop system. That dashboard is a revelation by Subaru standards, cheesy fake stitching notwithstanding, and kudos to Subaru for keeping physical controls and a real shifter. On the whole, looking good. Thanks, Alex.
    1
  2598.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, my only regret is that I didn't see this comment to answer it sooner. It's a year later now, and no, Lexus hasn't been "ended for good" by Hyundai's luxury division with a poor quality & service record and no freestanding dealerships.
    1
  2599. The hybrid is also super reliable. It's a more modern version of the Prius system that NYC cabbies and Uber drivers have been beating on for hundreds of thousands of miles.
    1
  2600. I think that's some of it, since they have the RX for the crossover intenders. More to the point is that with the cancellation of the nimble but slow-selling GS, it simply didn't take much money to also offer a slightly sportified version of the ES to keep some of those customers in the fold.
    1
  2601. RWD works worse. All you're saying is that for you, nothing but AWD will do. But AWD has compromises of its own.
    1
  2602. Small thing, as you noted, but the '23 ES fixes the lack of wireless CarPlay.
    1
  2603.  @Spachia  Key there being "in its price range." The other poster here keeps insisting his is longer. At $20,000 more costly, it damn well should be.
    1
  2604. Ageism? The boss is the old guy. He agreed to air this.
    1
  2605.  @2004cyrus  All the best to you, Cyrus.
    1
  2606. Except the Crosstour had hatchback versatility.
    1
  2607. I think the CX-50 was created expressly for buyers like you who liked the CX-5 but thought it was a half size too small. Problem is, you can only sell a larger car at the same price by cheapening it somewhere. It's the same problem that led VW to ruin the Jetta and Passat.
    1
  2608. Cost.
    1
  2609. Two I've seen on owner boards: 1) Remove the knee pads on the sides of the console and cover the contact surfaces with vibration-insulating tape. 2) Remove the cosmetic clips from the back seat that cover the child-seat mounting points. Good luck.
    1
  2610.  @valdius85  I wouldn't be sad (and my last car was an Acura). Honda's smaller size has always given them the nimbleness to make more interesting cars than Toyota. I worry a bit for Mazda.
    1
  2611. @@japanwatchconnection Well, this self-worshipping "I own a BMW" post is good for one thing: It explains your dozens of anti-Lexus sh!tposts across dozens of Lexus review videos. And admit it: You wouldn't "want a Lexus" no matter where it was built.
    1
  2612. I agree, the ES 350 does not match the BMW 5 series, Audi A6 or MB E Class. It's $15,000 less expensive.
    1
  2613. Not in the US.
    1
  2614. Same price, same size, similar specs, same target audience.
    1
  2615. It is "catching up." In fact, passing all rivals. It easily outsells the E Class, A6 and 5 Series as the most popular luxury-brand sedan in this size class.
    1
  2616. Which one do you mean? I see Toyota, Mazda and arguably Subaru still doing that.
    1
  2617. I haven't driven the 2013-18 sixth generation, but most reviewers agree that the older car is a bit softer but gives up more in handling than it gains in ride. (This comment does not apply to the F Sport, which is the stiffest modern ES even at its softest setting.)
    1
  2618. Owners of both may try to jump into each others' car. Porsche should sue both of them.
    1
  2619. LS 460 was famous for extremely expensive suspension parts. In the first few years, a lot of them went bad. That's one of the attractions of the ES by comparison: much cheaper parts made of steel.
    1
  2620.  @stevebalone4579  The LS 430 is a legend for good reason, as you know better than I. There's a post elsewhere on this thread that goes into more detail than I can about exactly which front end parts were failure prone in the first three model years; I think even the conventional-suspension cars were vulnerable. I have to admit I'm a bit surprised, since in some ways the LS 460 always struck me as a bit of a cheapout from its 430 predecessor.
    1
  2621. The markups aren't Toyota's. They're the dealers'.
    1
  2622. What does the owner's manual say?
    1
  2623. And in the opinion of this oldster, that's not a bad thing. Seen the new X3? I've seen subtler arcade machines.
    1
  2624. From what I'm reading, the S4 mid-trim Premium Plus is now getting discounted down that level, and the basically similar A4 S Line comes in under $50k street price now even when loaded. Sure they're leasemobiles, but they are price-competitive.
    1
  2625. No. New design for older audience. This is targeted expressly at the empty-nester Boomers who were no longer buying the Avalon. The tallness is to give them the easy entry-exit and commanding driving position they want.
    1
  2626. Yet everyone who's tested it says its controls are so horrible as to make the car practically unusable.
    1
  2627. Tow something, pretty much no.
    1
  2628. One at a time: The ES does have wood accents on upper models, on the dash and doors. The car already has one of the comfiest rides in autodom, at the expense of handling. It's questionable how much farther they can lean that way. The V6 is dead, sorry, but gas-engine hybrids will stay. Toyota has to meet ever-stricter emissions laws. If they lose you over it, sorry.
    1
  2629. Do it. The battery holds up for 8+ years.
    1
  2630. ES AND RX and NX and Camry and RAV4 and Highlander and Corolla and Prius. And Crown Signia.
    1
  2631. The wind noise depends in part on the trim level. The Luxury and Ultra Luxury have sound reducing glass reported to mute wind noise heard around the mirrors and A pillars in other trims.
    1
  2632. Nope.
    1
  2633. I'm old and own an ES, and I don't think Jack is wrong. Mark isn't, either. That's what makes this a really informative video.
    1
  2634. Your post proves its own falsehood. You say at the same time that Toyota vehicles are in such demand that they're commanding massive markups, and that "Toyota is dead and falling behind." Clearly, as the world's #1 automaker, they're not "behind" yet.
    1
  2635. I'm willing to bet you sat in a Luxury or Ultra Luxury. The leather smell really adds to the luxury ambience.
    1
  2636.  @da1nonly_Q  I've heard someone smarter than me say that Lexus matches the likes of Bentley in delivering aromatic leathers.
    1
  2637. Then you don't buy a turbo?
    1
  2638.  @Nightbird.  Exactly. They're a great value until the moment when you need parts and service, and you will.
    1
  2639. Either will be fine.
    1
  2640.  @smithjohn2416  One of the best-made mass production cars ever.
    1
  2641. It was widely rumored they'd have a new ES for the '25 model year. Now it looks like it'll be the 2026.
    1
  2642. I'm old. I own an ES. I thought both Mark and Jack had a point. You rip both of them, even though only one of them didn't agree with you. If you stop watching because you're insecure about your age, it'll be your loss.
    1
  2643.  @johnf6545  It's clear it struck a nerve in you. It's no fault of theirs that of the over 1,000 comments they've gotten on this video, your petty verbal abuse wasn't deemed worth answering. As an ES owner, I thought their approach thoughtfully summed up the pros AND cons of the car, and put it all in an entertaining package. Again, what triggers you -- whoever the eff you think you are -- is neither their problem nor ours.
    1
  2644. Then you'd never have bought one, because the ES has replaced the folding rear seat feature with a structural reinforcing brace behind the seatback for over 30 years.
    1
  2645. He has made clear over his videos that his career as a Lexus/Toyota master mechanic has given him a lot of confidence in Toyota's dedication to quality and durability. Toyota is not the best at everything—they trail in technology and performance—but he believes they are very well made.
    1
  2646. Depends on what you want. Mark, and Consumer Reports, favor the hybrid for its amazing fuel economy and smoothness when not accelerating, and the middle trim level for value. Car and Driver recommends the gas-powered ES 350 Ultra Luxury. Others like the F Sport, more for looks than handling (it comes with or without the firmer suspension). Nobody likes the AWD ES 250.
    1
  2647. Why not just get your routine service and non-warranty troubleshooting done at the Toyota dealer?
    1
  2648.  @naveenthemachine  Naveen, for the 101st time, no. The ES is not the same car as your Camry.
    1
  2649. At 12:13, he specifies "302 horsepower."
    1
  2650. No, but it is a design that lost its focus. They couldn't decide whether to make a Panamera or an S Class, so they made a mongrel that fell short in both ways.
    1
  2651.  @Jonsk111  That relaxation part is why I drive one! :.)
    1
  2652.  @Jonsk111  Best of luck. I hope you get what you want and completely enjoy it!
    1
  2653. The Genesis would trample it. That Lexus is a dog, well beneath the historical standards of the LS nameplate.
    1
  2654.  @turnne  Reliability, room, ride comfort, sales popularity, reviews. The current LS fails them all.
    1
  2655.  @turnne  Yes, it says that several factors go into selling a prestige car: Product design, brand image, dealer experience, parts availability, to name a few. The current LS fails the first one. Genesis fails every one of these except the first one.
    1
  2656.  @turnne  "turnne," I gather "you don't know either" is your attempt at an Internet-winning mic drop. If you trust this company to give you a Lexus-like ownership experience, by all means, invest your money. But before you do, invest a minute to listen at the 21:00 mark of this largely positive Genesis test video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULVDFyGngH8
    1
  2657. Bad guess. ES's have had this design decision for 30 years.
    1
  2658.  @eto2352  I said nothing of the sort. I didn't defend their action, I explained it. Is your argument a clumsy attempt to humiliate a stranger on the Internet under an assumed name?
    1
  2659. Some people think buying American is a selling point. You don't have to agree with them, but it certainly isn't incomprehensible. And, as these guys mentioned in a previous review, it's cheaper because they saved cost to give it more room, which Americans like.
    1
  2660. Honestly, I just changed out the trash tires for performance rubber, and it still lights them up.
    1
  2661.  @naveenthemachine  Yes, Naveen, we know from your countless previous Genesis fanboi posts. For the record, there is no G80 version that has even 400 HP, let alone 500. And everybody, including Genesis, is turning to SUVs because that's what buyers are buying.
    1
  2662. Among other things, it tells you the next-gen CR-V will get bigger.
    1
  2663. They had the GS, but not enough people were willing to pay extra for it.
    1
  2664. That sedan will be released, but not in the US.
    1
  2665.  @andycalifornia426  Welllll... not my idea of a sedan, let's put it that way.
    1
  2666. If it was AWD, you didn't. At least, if you're like most buyers. The GS offered exactly what lots of posters say they want, but the ES outsold it about 20-1 because the truth was that they weren't willing to pay extra for the bespoke mechanicals required to build it.
    1
  2667. I think they made the CX-50 for all the US focus group consumers who said exactly what you did ("Love it! Now make it wider with more rear seat legroom and a more macho look"). Except when you add size, you can't hold the line on price unless you cut costs somewhere, since this car was probably meant to replace the CX-5.
    1
  2668. I don't miss a larger gas tank. Even the V6 version's gas mileage is pretty decent.
    1
  2669.  @youngworld6646  Yeah, but it can be harmed by one, too. Every gallon added takes away from fuel economy, performance and passenger/cargo room. All engineering is a compromise.
    1
  2670. I know this is a 4 year old post, but this question comes up often. The reason for FWD is the same it's always been:: cost. Sharing mechanicals with the bestselling Camry lets them substantially undercut the price of the same-size Germans. Toyota isn't "stupid," they're reaching a market nobody else does.
    1
  2671. This comment is incredible. You rip this guy a new one in late 2022 for saying 4 years ago that this car was out of date, even though you know he was proven right when the car was discontinued for poor sales 5 MONTHS AFTER HE SAID IT. I think you just take personally that you're old and you think he's calling you out. Well, I'm old too. Get over it.
    1
  2672. What year is yours? Because all the testers say that before the 2019, they were much worse.
    1
  2673. Yes. The Luxury and Ultra Luxury have noise reduction features that the base and F Sport models don't, including the front side window glass for that wind noise, and wheels with noise reduction chambers in them.
    1
  2674.  @kane5445  Should be pretty straightforward, although not cheap. Just the same way you'd replace front door windows if they broke. It involves door disassembly.
    1
  2675.  @kane5445  Find a reputable independent garage or body shop. Ask them to order the laminated front side windows from the ES Ultra Luxury and install them. Won't be cheap, and I don't know how quickly you can get the parts, but it should reduce the wind noise.
    1
  2676.  @kane5445  You specifically mentioned wind noise. The windows are going to make the big difference there, although some people who've had clear aftermarket Paint Protection Film (PPF) applied to their outside mirrors also have reported that how it's applied can create wind noise around the mirrors.. The Luxury and Ultra Luxury also have 18" noise reduction wheels to cut road noise, and the chassis on those models has bolt-on "Performance Dampers" at the front and rear to improve overall smoothness.
    1
  2677. This post is like reading a transcript of the video. Who could watch it and not know this? Respectfully, why did you spend the effort to type it?
    1
  2678.  @Usernotknown21  Which one do you own, Eli? I own a Prius. You say it's a "luxury hybrid," but you don't say it's a Toyota, the one that's the most reliable brand and the one with the most widespread parts and service support.
    1
  2679. Actually, the ES has never had fold-down rear seats for over 30 years. The reason isn't to save weight, it's to add chassis rigidity with a trapezoidal brace behind the seatback, which only leaves room for a ski pass-through. Guess they figured luxury buyers valued the extra tightness over the cargo capability.
    1
  2680. Except room in the storage bins, room in the third seat, quietness, ride comfort, and refinement from a carmaker that could afford a development budget.
    1
  2681. I didn't know about the hook in the trunk, either!
    1
  2682. I think it's the other way around. Lexus knew it was about to eliminate the slow-selling and expensively built GS line, but figured that adding a sport version of the new ES might hang on to some of those customers for a pretty small additional investment.
    1
  2683. That's because every car's doors have to be tall and slab-sided now, even a Miata, to meet regulations for getting T-boned by an SUV. The problem you're really reacting to is that, in addition, the roof is low.
    1
  2684.  @kuramarosetta8193  Nope, not anybody's spokesman but my own. I happen to have a '10 Prius in the household. It, too, has a high rear window (although it also has the lower pane the new one doesn't). But it also has a much higher roof for vastly superior headroom and all-around visibility in both rows.
    1
  2685. Lexus doesn't break out sales figures for individual sub-models of the IS, although I'd bet you a lot of money that the ES 350 AWD vastly outsells the RWD version with a Four. Overall, the ES outsells the IS in America by about 50 percent.
    1
  2686.  @kingakim11  Also fair enough. I can't see anybody who wants an IS 200T wanting an ES 350. They're designed for different wants.
    1
  2687.  @nikos6220  Jack explained it to you. Unless you have the money of Consumer Reports, you can't afford to buy a car in order to test it. Tesla does not lend out cars to reviewers, so as an economic reality they can't routinely afford to review the cars.
    1
  2688. You're right, it won't. Nor is it meant to. The GS died in this country after the ES outsold it more than 10 to 1. Unfortunately, Americans proved they won't pay extra for performance in a sedan unless it has a German badge.
    1
  2689.  @elir.torres8642  I never hit the report button, unless it was by accident. I never do that to anybody.
    1
  2690.  @elir.torres8642  O-kay. Facts: 1) I didn't make the video, I'm a viewer just like you. 2) The job you claim you had in Tennessee was actually in Lexington, Kentucky. 3) The GFS (actually the GS-F) was also discontinued 3 years ago. 4) Most US buyers of Lexus are not Black. By any chance, are there toxic fumes seeping into your mom's basement? Asking for a friend.
    1
  2691. Where did you get that idea? I personally wouldn't lease ever, but nothing he said about leasing a German car suggested that he didn't understand its financial implications. If anything, you're showing that you don't realize the Germans usually offer more favorable lease rates than Lexus does.
    1
  2692. I wish that for you, too.
    1
  2693. The ES's rear seats have been non-folding for 30 years. They put a reinforcing brace behind the back seat to add structural rigidity. In that time they've probably lost some sales over it, but it doesn't seem to stop them.
    1
  2694. The ES is good at what it's good at. I agree Raiti pulls the punch. Ride yes, taut handling no. It's all a question of what you want.
    1
  2695. You can't get rid of the screen. And in truth, if it were gone, you'd have much less control over various aspects of the car. Wood is optional, although most interior colors they stain it flat black so you hardly even notice it, sadly.
    1
  2696. I've never seen Geese bash a domestic vehicle without a reason.
    1
  2697. Of course, the Tundra can't do on-road full-time AWD at any trim level. Everything has tradeoffs.
    1
  2698. Almost. I recall the rear-door sunshades are standard on UL and unavailable on L. There may be one other feature, no big deal, and I don't recall what it is.
    1
  2699. Well, you got your way: Buick will no longer give him a car to test. Of course, they no longer have one to sell to anyone else in America, either. You can still book a trip to China for a test drive, though.
    1
  2700. Yeah, they flushed what was left of their credibility with this one.
    1
  2701. Bogus price comparison between a lower-priced new car and a higher-priced car that's depreciated because it's now used.
    1
  2702. I don't think he generally does. If you're observant, in most of his videos you can detect some cuts.
    1
  2703. Did you get it? And if so, how do you like it?
    1
  2704. No.
    1
  2705. That's one of the best things you can do for ANY car. Really lengthens their life.
    1
  2706. People who will shop this aren't looking for "inspiration." You show your bias by criticizing it for being too big and too small at the same time, and that's even though its space utilization is excellent. It has enough engine to do fine in the routine use it'll get, the AWD will work just fine on the pavement where everyone will actually use it, and the engine will last damn near forever. It'll sell well. Deal with it.
    1
  2707. There's only one 10 speaker base Pioneer stereo, but I think a fix was made on the fly around '20 or '21 to remedy complaints about barely being able to hear the rear speakers.
    1
  2708. The LS 430 was an upgrade over its predecessor the LS 400 in price, power and luxury. It's widely recognized as one of the best-made mass production cars ever.
    1
  2709. Of course I'm responding 2 years later to a post made at the height of the pandemic shortages. I ordered an Ultra Luxury when you posted this and waited 7 months for it. They probably were allocating the already small supply of Ultras to dealerships that had previous sold the largest numbers of them; they make them in just a few batches during the model year.
    1
  2710. Lexus made the GS with AWD, and nobody bought it. I'd love your Audis with AWD and more power too, except that's a somewhat unfair comparison since the Audis thus equipped cost $20k more.
    1
  2711. Great car. Entirely different car. Different engine, chassis, expense level of parts. Much more of a true luxury car.
    1
  2712. Tell me you didn't watch either Savagegeese Lucid video in full without telling me.
    1
  2713.  @larz456  BS. They've devoted two full videos almost entirely to explaining why Lucid stands out from other EVs because of a unique dedication to making a satisfying driving experience. Your original comment simply ignored that entirely.
    1
  2714.  @JohnnyUtah9173  And some owners experience lack of traction when turning corners under heavy acceleration. I replaced the tires to stop the problem, and i still have it. It's not your place to tell somebody else to buy a $40-55k, 302-horsepower luxury sedan and then never use the accelerator because you don't.
    1
  2715.  @JohnnyUtah9173  It's not automotive enthusiasm, either.
    1
  2716. Why wouldn't it be? It's a very popular SUV in the straight community, too. It's not just gay people who bid these up to $5k over MSRP.
    1
  2717. You can get black. And even if you chose one of the other interior colors, you could simply bolt in the armrest cover from a black one.
    1
  2718. Clearly you didn't watch Mark's 2022 love letter to the ES 350 in "Take It to the Grave."
    1
  2719. And clearly you aren't aware that Mark bought a Lexus himself, kept it for years, and advertised that fact to his YouTube audience.
    1
  2720. I'm not investing in crap no matter how big its battery is.
    1
  2721. They mentioned that the higher trims add more. Naturally, the costlier ES adds more still. Affordable pricing on a car stuffed full of advanced engineering has to come out of somewhere. As someone once said about the mid-era Prius, "It's a $25,000 car that drives like a car with a $30,000 car's powertrain and a $20,000 car's interior."
    1
  2722. No, although it's related to it.
    1
  2723. You can get a slightly more understated dark blue mica on the Ultra Luxury. I think it's very nice.
    1
  2724. You can't.
    1
  2725.  @ballathug8404  Yes, but using lower-end Camry/Avalon mechanicals. Which means that exactly like Camry and Avalon, AWD is available only with those cars' very ordinary 4-cylinder engine.
    1
  2726. How's that worked out for you?
    1
  2727. Me too. And boy, is my neck sore from twisting up to see them.
    1
  2728. I came to the ES 350 from an AWD sport sedan. Yes, it needs AWD, or at least limited slip, but the power is perfectly satisfactory. 6 seconds to 60 if you can avoid the wheelspin, faster on the highway than that implies, and unlike the Fours it never sounds like it's straining.
    1
  2729. Actually, I think I heard somewhere that they did.
    1
  2730.  @davids1816  Thank you.
    1
  2731. To elaborate: Your original post said its only advantages are "legroom and leather," and "there is no real reason to buy it other than you like spending money." Now, it's not for me to decide just what you consider worth the money and what isn't. But the statement that there's no difference is just not empirically true. Compared to the Camry, the ES has: More wheelbase, more legroom, tighter tolerances, smaller body gaps, more thoroughly inspected parts, better paint with more layers applied in a separate paint shop, more structural reinforcement in the front and rear, more structural adhesives for body rigidity, more soundproofing in multiple locations, unique shock absorbers on non-F Sport models with a new design that took 6 years to develop, better sound systems, and nicer materials throughout the interior. The result, unsurprisingly, is a car that feels more luxurious and expensive. It's not the driver's imagination or ego—it's design, features and quality in excess of the Camry's. Again, whether you consider this worthwhile is up to you, but the difference is real.
    1
  2732. "The better car" was your opinion, partly because of folding rear seats. But, for 30 years, the ES has always replaced folding rear seats with an added structural brace because Lexus felt luxury buyers valued the extra quiet and rigidity more. The ES also beats the Avalon in interior luxury, audio system, paint quality, body tolerances, and sound isolation.
    1
  2733. Yes.
    1
  2734. Get the XTS. It's the same car.
    1
  2735. Sorry, but pretty much everything you've said here is wrong. Lexus sales stomp Genesis sales. Prius is nowhere near Toyota's top seller (that's the RAV4). Minivans are getting buried in sales by 3-row SUVs, which ARE the hot sales segment. Ford is an awful long-term bet, beset by quality gremlins and depending more and more on niche vehicles like the Bronco; lucky for them the F150 continues to keep the lights on.
    1
  2736. You're mistaken. This car is built in Kentucky.
    1
  2737.  @LordCommandor  Check again, "Lord."
    1
  2738.  @michaelgrant5258  The people who train assembly line workers in either country are generally supervisors, not other assembly line workers. Japanese supervisors were brought to America to school the chosen workers here. Lexus' higher % depreciation is basically because all luxury products depreciate more; they're marked up more up front, and they are more of a fashion product.
    1
  2739. The next generation ES will very probably offer both, since it'll probably be based on this Crown.
    1
  2740. Sorry you missed it. Pretty interesting video.
    1
  2741. "A bit" more? So I see you didn't catch Mark getting rotisseried on an open spit for the pricing on his recent purchase of one?
    1
  2742. That's well and good. Partly they call it an older person's car because it is, in fact, bought mostly by older persons—last I saw, average age of its buyers was 67.
    1
  2743. Opt for the non-hybrid V6 version that drives nicer anyway, and it drops to 6.1.
    1
  2744. Mostly, but with numerous subtle upgrades throughout. More structural bracing, better soundproofing, higher-quality interior materials, better paint, tighter body gaps, better audio systems.
    1
  2745. Bangle preceded the emphasis on China.
    1
  2746. I asked elsewhere in this thread, and Savagegeese was kind enough to reply personally. He said the Lexus is better in the same ways the Honda is good, having "more attention to detail and a better sound system."
    1
  2747. So I see you've never owned a Volkswagen.
    1
  2748. My god, in what way and in what world?
    1
  2749.  @ishaansaral502  Ishaan, you're doing the Hyundai fanboi thing up and down this thread. But the statistical differences in reliability and durability between Toyota and Hyundai vehicles are provable and real. Toyota puts the money where it doesn't show. Hyundai puts it where it does. That's not evil -- every buyer can choose what they value most -- but it's real, and it's provable.
    1
  2750. I guarantee they both stay as long as both sell well.
    1
  2751. And the interior and trunk are vastly larger than the same-price Audi A4 and BMW 3. So what's your point exactly?
    1
  2752. I think you're probably right that a reliability difference is no longer the first thing on people's list (partly because more people lease now). But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
    1
  2753.  @Tech-Kino2685  Yes, I just explicitly acknowledged that. Re-read my last comment before replying to it, please.
    1
  2754. Agree, but Buick doesn't make any kind of car anymore (except for Chinese buyers), because GM has gone almost exclusively to higher-margin SUVs and pickups because US-based companies are ruled by institutional investors who demand increased profits THIS QUARTER.
    1
  2755. So, what happens the first time you encounter a rude Tesla employee? In fact, the person you claim made you sell your Lexus isn't even an employee of Lexus.
    1
  2756. Check the attachment points of the console knee pads. They may need insulating tape.
    1
  2757. I gather you'd prefer one of the other interior color schemes.
    1
  2758. Spoken like a jealous Camry owner. 😂
    1
  2759.  @LGN26  "It can't be debated"? I disagree. Am I forbidden from saying so?
    1
  2760.  @LGN26  Thanks for "telling me." Uh, you do understand that opinions about styling are just that -- opinions. Right?
    1
  2761.  @LGN26  There are similarities like the rear-fender sculpting, but also differences like the rear quarter window treatment -- which I think looks both good and distinctive on each car. Really, across all makes, the demands of safety and fuel economy have pushed all cars toward a common shape that's left little wiggle room except for the grille and the rear quarter windows/pillars. Compare both of these with, say, an Altima and it's as similar to these as they are to each other.
    1
  2762.  @suserman7775  Yes, I read your first comment above. The one where you said the Mercedes E Class was "garbage." Keep the wisdom coming.
    1
  2763. More meticulous build quailty with better paint, better interior materials, more rear seat and trunk room, quieter, more comfortable ride, vastly better optional stereo, more features, longer warranty, better dealer service. Whether that's worth the hefty price premium is up to you.
    1
  2764. Oh, in the '23 ES video, Jack showed up and had the last word. :.D
    1
  2765. Unlike the Germans they depreciate faster than they wear out for sure, so it may be the smartest way to buy this car. The durability of the new engine, which is much more complex and costly to fix than previous Lexus powerplants, is the great imponderable. From what I've read, it's more critical on this car than on previous Lexi to make sure any used one has well-documented and frequent synthetic oil changes.
    1
  2766. He did pull kind of a come-on, didn't he?
    1
  2767. Yes. The previous ES's tested by Savagegeese were not F Sports.
    1
  2768. @@japanwatchconnection "Dreadful"? Don't you ever get embarrassed at yourself?
    1
  2769. Nothing wil bring back the market for high-priced subcompact sedans. But the CX-5 is outselling the CX-50 by about 3 to 1, despite the CX-50 usually having more cash on the hood.
    1
  2770. Actually, he quit.
    1
  2771.  @Hiromandt  Economically, yes for sure it is (my experience is with a Prius). Other than the battery, which itself is so reliable they warranty it for 10 years or 120,000 miles, the setup gets rid of a bunch of belt-driven stuff and lengthens the life of the brake pads to often over 100,000 miles. You get in, it takes you where you're going, you put a few bucks of gas in it occasionally. For the user, there's pretty much no complexity beyond the routine engine maintenance typical of a gas car. It's actually very tried-and-true technology, used in locomotives for decades.
    1
  2772. Toyota is not a principal culprit in "foisting monster trucks on America." In fact they've been criticized for a new Tundra that's transparently less than a full effort to claim additional market share, lacking features they knew people wanted like full-time AWD on most models.
    1
  2773. Yes, they did.
    1
  2774.  @naveenthemachine  This is silly. Lexus still makes money. It has vastly higher sales than Genesis, and makes high margins by selling tech mass-produced for Highlander and Camry at much higher profit margins per unit. Yes, Lexus's sedans aren't selling well, but the RX and NX alone will keep the lights on just fine. Infiniti was NEVER as healthy as Lexus still is now.
    1
  2775. Savagegeese's video production values are the best in the YouTube car arena. And operating on limited budgets, it's a doubly remarkable achievement.
    1
  2776. 1) It got a touch screen for '22. 2) Wait for the '25.
    1
  2777. With some upgrades. For one, they now use both direct and port fuel injection, improving gas mileage and performance.
    1
  2778. When they brought out the current generation for 2019, they deliberately retained a lot of visual cues from the previous generation that debuted for 2013. The new '19 was on an all-new chassis, and my personal guess (no proof) was that they didn't want to scare their loyal buyers by changing its look so much that it looked like an unrelated car.
    1
  2779. Not exactly. Longer wheelbase for better ride, multiple soundproofing measures especially on the higher trim level, better sound system, better fit/finish and paint.
    1
  2780. True. And everything that made the RL truly superior took longer than a drive around the block to notice.
    1
  2781. I think that was exactly their point: The rake of the windshield is excessive for any functional purpose, and without it you'd have a longer hood instead of a vast expanse of dashtop plastic over an interior space you can't use.
    1
  2782.  @momichaux5054  Then how do you know the Japan-built one will have the same problem?
    1
  2783. Low bar. All around, there's these guys. For entertainment, another option is Throttle House. For straight information of the consumer style, Alex Dykes' Auto Buyers Guide. Carwow... not so much.
    1
  2784.  @DenzilPeters  That's possible. :.)
    1
  2785. What a buy. And right before the pandemic, what a masterpiece of timing. That car is probably worth about that much now.
    1
  2786. What did you decide on, and how do you like it?
    1
  2787. Not really. They killed off the GS worldwide because it was a pricier, finer V6 AWD car that cost a lot to build and didn't sell. The ES AWD lsn't really a GS alternative, it's a somewhat unrefined drivetrain with the Camry's 4 that's being offered just for those who insist on AWD for winter traction.
    1
  2788. He is in the Midwest.
    1
  2789. I agree the touchpad was the height of awfulness. I refused to shop it for that reason alone. They went to a touchscreen for '22, and I bought it. No problems.
    1
  2790. Unfortunately, while I personally like the LS and LC, both are in fact selling horribly.
    1
  2791. The ES and G80 overlap some, but it's worth noting that you have to climb the ladder $10k higher than any ES to get a G80 with leather and a V6.
    1
  2792.  @rosgoncharuk2403  I didn't say the G80 wasn't more expensively built or nicer to drive. I said that at comparable feature levels, the G80 is higher-priced. And the 2.5T is not comparable in luxury character to the Lexus V6. Don't take my word for it; go to the 14:30 mark in Geese's own test of the 2021 G80.
    1
  2793.  @rosgoncharuk2403  I think the G80 is a fine car and an appealing choice in the class. I also agree the ES comes across as less special. I hope your car gives you a long, happy life.
    1
  2794. Uh, no. Much nicer materials in person, including fragrant semi-aniline leather and real wood on the Luxury and Ultra Luxury trims.
    1
  2795. @@japanwatchconnection Made in the same factory. But the Lexus has its own separate assembly line, with higher standards, tighter tolerances for parts and body panel gaps, an exclusive paint shop applying better paint, and an exclusive cadre of workers handpicked for Lexus and trained in Japanese methods. Look it up.
    1
  2796. No. The seats don't have massage. The Auto button down there synchs up the speed of the seat ventilation fans with the A/C fan speed. There's also a more comprehensive "Climate Concierge" mode, settable through the screen, that does something similar with the seat ventilators/heaters and the heated steering wheel.
    1
  2797. Where are all these Camrys I keep reading about here that look like a Lexus LS?
    1
  2798. The problem with electric cars isn't the cars, it's the refusal of our elites to support them with a workable infrastructure. I got a new car last year. I had a choice of every technology, but I take long trips, so an EV was out. For EVs to work, it'll take a commitment of PUBLIC FUNDS to put the charging infrastructure everywhere. And as long as both our political parties are hijacked by billionaires whose only public policy priority is a refusal to pay their taxes, that will never happen.
    1
  2799. Just guessing, but recent Honda implementations of torque vectoring (I think the most recent Pilots have it) have not carried that brand. Honda/Acura seems to have decided the name will be an Acura exclusive.
    1
  2800. Your second sentence nailed it.
    1
  2801. The Germans were having the same chip problems, BTW. Mercedes was dropping features, and BMW was delivering fewer cars with their upmarket stereos.
    1
  2802. I'm seeing so many nearly identical posts here plugging the Calligraphy Edition that I'm starting to mistrust them.
    1
  2803. Yeah, deal with it, they are the future. But with this kind of immature design and the undercooked infrastructure around them, they aren't yet the present.
    1
  2804. That's a bit of a misnomer, based on the mistaken impression that the ES is "based on the Camry." The new Camry is a version of the same platform that the current ES and old Camry are based on, as well as the Corolla and Prius. The next ES will be its own iteration, as the current one is now.
    1
  2805. Really? What did they say?
    1
  2806. Depends on what you want. How can a $50,000 car be not terribly quiet on the highway and have less rear seat room than a Civic? Each car reflected a different set of design priorities, as all engineered products do.
    1
  2807.  @nevessl998  Generally agree, but you may want to test drive an ES. Only 1 dB louder than an S Class on the highway. You do notice the quiet.
    1
  2808. Better sit in the front!
    1
  2809. True of some older cars, but all the good newer ones are designed to withstand it.
    1
  2810. I see this was 4 months ago -- did you decide? Sounds like there were no wrong answers.
    1
  2811.  @jsggill  Enjoy it (some more)!
    1
  2812. Not "also." All ES's are just fine on regular.
    1
  2813. Yes, and the ES is more luxurious. Just as the two have been for 25 years.
    1
  2814. I dunno. Does it have more than 6 dealers and a reliability graph that doesn't glow red like a nuke plant gone bad?
    1
  2815. Presuming that smart people have an extra $2,700. 🤔
    1
  2816. Yes, but all the competitors (even Nissan's Infiniti) had a V8 flagship version that got the magazine road tests and all the publiicity, even though people then would come in and buy the V6. Lacking both the cachet and the bragworthy acceleration numbers crippled them in comparison tests.
    1
  2817. That's nice, but why did you feel the need to post this in a news story about a gas-engined Lexus sedan? Are you posting the same comment on every review of a German midsize luxury car?
    1
  2818. Yes, you can. No, there aren't. It runs perfectly and delivers its full power on regular.
    1
  2819. Even Kia doesn't do the Stinger anymore.
    1
  2820. The tires, maybe. The lateral performance dampers, no. They're not suspension stiffeners, they're actually shock absorbers bolted to the front and back of the frame. They only make the car quieter and smoother.
    1
  2821. You know "emasculate" is a verb and not a noun, right?
    1
  2822. "it will most likely push buyers in that segment towards other luxury brands." Nope, it's outselling the 5 Series and the E Class combined.
    1
  2823. I understand.
    1
  2824. Nope. LS: A foot longer than ES and Avalon outside, smaller inside (surrendered to swoopy long-hood styling). ES and Avalon: same size as each other. Camry: slightly smaller in both dimensions.
    1
  2825.  @edwardvalivonis23  Lexus is still moving a lot more iron than Genesis. Don't buy the hype.
    1
  2826. @@japanwatchconnection You're absolutely right about the LS, GS and IS. There's no question the SUVs and the ES are keeping the lights on at Lexus. But then, SUVs and pickup trucks are keeping the lights on all over the auto industry. Salivate over the 911 all you want, but most of Porsche's bucks these days come from the stupid and embarrassing Cayenne.
    1
  2827.  @suserman7775  "Two terrible cars"? Okay, you win the Internet.
    1
  2828. Yeah, that's it. :.D
    1
  2829. No, actually it isn't. Different chassis, different engine, different driven wheels. Tell me "I'm incapable of having an open mind about Asian cars" without telling me.
    1
  2830. You kinda have it backwards, I think. Chance are he will never buy it because it's a car that causes him to complain about it, not necessarily the other way around. He was interested enough to give it a full test drive, wasn't he?
    1
  2831. Uh, evidently you don't know the business aspect of YouTube. The two are self-employed, and for the money Google makes off this site, severely underpaid.
    1
  2832. The LS is an odd duck. It's much less space-efficient than the ES, and actually has a smaller interior when measured in cubic feet, yet it's a foot longer. They sacrificed too much function for style, which is why it hasn't sold.
    1
  2833. The CX-50 was meant to be the redesign.
    1
  2834. Funny you should say that. I decided to spend the extra cash for the ES partly because I just couldn't stand how the Avalon looked. But styling reactions are a personal thing, I know.
    1
  2835. I love your thoroughness in describing the small, utilitarian "unimportant" aspects of the car's daily usability. This car is the anti-Toyota, and that's not really a knock. As you pointed out with Rivian, it just demonstrates how hard it is for a new carmaker to nail all the thousands of little things like door chocks, key fobs, trunklids and cupholders. I'm reminded of when old Hyundai forgot to hard-wire the Excel's radio so it didn't forget your presets every time you shut it off. Stellar work.
    1
  2836. If you mean "miles to empty," that's just the car underestimating how far it can still go to be careful so you don't run out of gas. The part of the trip computer you should be looking at is the miles per gallon, which is much more accurate because it's a calculation of what you've already done rather than a cautious prediction of what'll happen next.
    1
  2837. No.
    1
  2838.  @rjwintl  Exactly the opposite. Now that they got rid of the stupid fiddly trackpad, the physical controls are waaaay easier to operate than having to burrow into touchpad menus to, say, switch on the seat coolers. Geese himself talks about this at length in last year's video, "Take it to the Grave."
    1
  2839. This post didn't age well. The Camry is mopping the floor with the Accord in US sales.
    1
  2840. Reviewers including Car and Driver agree with you, especially in regard to the AWD gas-engine ES 250. They damned it as a Camry driving experience for double the price.
    1
  2841. That nav was engineered by Alpine, BTW.
    1
  2842. The GS was on an entirely different platform that was made for RWD. Rightly or wrongly, this platform didn't leave enough space underneath for both AWD and a V6.
    1
  2843.  @crxracer805  Probably so. Among other things, they knew they'd soon be abandoning the V6 entirely, and wasted space is wasted weight that hurts roominess, performance and gas mileage.
    1
  2844. They're bound by law to recommend the water-weight oil they went through the EPA mileage test with. But you're not obligated to use it, not even to maintain your warranty, as they veeeeryy indirectly admit in the owner's manuals.
    1
  2845.  @iamthedutchbro  Bob, it's not that simple. GM has people who know how to engineer. The problem is Wall Street, which turns the screws on US companies in every industry to sabotage quality and long-term brand value to deliver ever-greater profits RIGHT NOW. You'll notice Ford quality sucks, too. Both are run by Finance types.
    1
  2846.  @joetacchino4470  A "state-owned company"? Sort of. It's all but abandoning the US to concentrate on its new #1 market, China. Did you know there's still an appealing lineup of new Buick sedans? There is, just not for us. If your question is meant to insinuate the "Thanks, Obama" trope, a couple facts: 1) It was George W. Bush. 2) I too feel a sense of betrayal, because they were saved in order to save American jobs, and they've since outsourced them all to China out of sheer greed. But that's what happens when you throw money at giant corporations without the strings attached that would hold them accountable. It should've been in the contract.
    1
  2847. I'm a sedan fan (there are fewer and fewer of us left), but the cold fact is that most people won't be cross-shopping a compact SUV against a large sedan, even if they're priced the same and sitting in the same showroom. The more relevant comparison, and the even more awkward one for Lexus, is that this doesn't blow away the Venza, and even the much less costly Mazda CX-5 has a much more premium-looking interior.
    1
  2848. Yeah, but it makes the roomy interior and reasonable price and easy repairability possible, because it lets Toyota leverage the economies of scale into this car from all those Camrys and Highlanders.
    1
  2849. Non-folding is how the ES has rolled for over 30 years. They replace the folding feature with a stiffening seatback brace. The non-heated is harder to forgive.
    1
  2850.  @FilmScape4K  I don't think the ES ever used leather on the doors. I think it was always vinyl. Now, early ES's always had leather on the seats, and now only the Luxury and Ultra Luxury trim levels do. That is an actual downgrade.
    1
  2851. Not as entertaining? I beg to differ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6vprgDHFw0
    1
  2852. There's a reason for that: This car was designed to compete with other Chinese brands, in China. There aren't enough American ES buyers left for Toyota to bother developing an ES for us. So they've discontined the ES, and this Chinese-market car will be badged as an ES to pick up a few of them without the added cost of developing a new one.
    1
  2853. Fortunately, you won't have to buy it because of that alone. It also offers reliability, decent ride, decent room, and AWD at a reasonable price.
    1
  2854.  @lokinsea  Matthew is correct. The ES takes regular.
    1
  2855. So?
    1
  2856. Avalon was a fine car overall, just a little less luxurious overall. As you probably know, the Avalon was since discontinued after the '22 model year, but the history of previous Avalons suggests it'll be a fine used car choice for years to come, especially because its owners are usually older, upscale, conservative-style drivers who baby the car.
    1
  2857.  @mercenaryzorek  I had one rattle near the front of the console that went away by itself, and a driver's seat memory that needed reprogramming at the dealer. That's it. Otherwise, exactly the Lexus build quality you'd expect. I wouldn't worry a moment about Kentucky assembly.
    1
  2858.  @AG-yv8yb  Not quite all the options. For one, you can't get that killer Mark Levinson stereo.
    1
  2859.  @AG-yv8yb  Same Kentucky factory, separate assembly line, higher assembly standards, more highly trained and selected workers.
    1
  2860.  @AG-yv8yb  No, A G, that is not accurate. But I get the distinct impression you would rather gutlessly insult other posters behind the safe anonymity of the Internet than know.
    1
  2861.  @AG-yv8yb  A G, what you're doing is what psychologists call "projection." Look it up in your abundant spare time.
    1
  2862. Except for those who don't. Expect me to be silly, bratty and one of them.
    1
  2863. And the Stupidest Bigot Poster of the Last 4 Years award goes to...
    1
  2864. Got that update in '23.
    1
  2865. Actually, Hyundai had a car very much like this in the Azera, and that car died off from poor sales except in Asia, just like the LaCrosse did. So, I doubt it.
    1
  2866. And this is a stale half-true post.
    1
  2867. Wow, there are some seriously thin-skinned people out there. And I say that in my capacity as an old fart.
    1
  2868. Comparable: probably Corolla Cross. Just above it: Maybe Mazda CX-30.
    1
  2869. It didn't sell. The ES still does. Because the ES is built on high-volume Camry/Avalon bones, they can give more feature content for the money than they could in the low-volume GS, and the sad truth is that most buyers don't know or care about the difference.
    1
  2870.  @redriver15262  This is being so often recited it's becoming a meme itself, as if we've entered the Post-Reliable-Toyotas era. But the reliability survey data still says most Toyota products still win.
    1
  2871. Because you like height?
    1
  2872.  @nickiemcnichols5397  I know. That's why they got a Prius. In my case, my wife wanted a commuter with perfect reliability and, of course, great gas mileage. She was also driving long distances alone through less-than-trustworthy areas in all kinds of weather. With better all season tires, the car's strengths remained strong and its weaknesses were somewhat less weak.
    1
  2873. Higher-trim non- F Sports have real wood on the steering wheel, dash and doors (where the F Sport has wide strips of aluminum). Problem is, in most interior colors, it's stained flat black so it doesn't look like much of anything, probably in a misguided attempt to copy the current German fashion.
    1
  2874. Clearly your theory was right, although in truth, no ES can match the better balance of the now-deceased AWD GS.
    1
  2875.  @MTechn1k  Whereas they conducted a motivated, goal-directed criminal conspiracy under his dynamic leadership.
    1
  2876. I'm confused by your comment. Did you mean to say something else? Were you talking about the Lexus IS, perhaps? Because against its direct competitors, the ES is in fact roomier and bigger for less.
    1
  2877.  @pappaslivery  I think you have a point, but my guess is that Toyota thinks people who are prioritizing adults in back will get an RX anyway. They're sure not doing it to protect the LS, because the LS interior is even smaller despite its massive exterior size. I do agree that all sedan makers have been doing this for years. BTW, the ES already has "crushed this market bracket," being the only survivor in the large/FWD/entry-luxury class other than the Chrysler 300. It's outlived XTS, LaCrosse, Infiniti M, TL, MKS, MKZ, and Maxima.
    1
  2878. What did you expect when you started watching? And would it have persuaded you?
    1
  2879.  @Fee.1  Who wouldn't find those persuasive? :.)
    1
  2880. Maybe you're just a hater.
    1
  2881. Most buyers agree with you. It's why the older car is winning in sales by at least 2-1, causing CX-50's to pile up on dealer lots and get discounts. This reminds me of VW. Americans in focus groups said they wanted 'em bigger and cheaper, so VW engineered the products that way for here and then found they didn't sell.
    1
  2882. For 30 years, Lexus has replaced the Camry/Avalon's drop-down rear seats with an extra structural brace behind the seat back that only leaves room for a ski pass-through. Evidently they believe that luxury customers value the extra rigidity and quietness/tightness more than the cargo-carrying versatility valued in a family sedan. Whether right or wrong, at least they've been consistent.
    1
  2883. Lemme help. The A6 drives better and looks prettier, especially inside. The ES holds up better and costs less.
    1
  2884. I bet you're a laugh riot when trying to explain away why Canada is on fire.
    1
  2885.  @yungrichnbroke5199  Advertisers as in "carmakers who want to actually translate their marketing budgets into cars sold."
    1
  2886.  @TeeDee111  To do a deep dive into Nissan and Jatco, you'd need some pretty rugged hip waders and a clothes pin on your nose.
    1
  2887. Camry has a shorter wheelbase than the other two. As for Avalon vs. ES, there's probably less difference in ride than in noise level; the upper ES trim levels in particular have several noise reduction measures that Avalons don't.
    1
  2888. Tech and luxury, yes. Reliability, no. Not close.
    1
  2889.  @adilsagadiyev5090  Depends on your definition of "close." Consumer Reports' latest survey of US owners rates the ES above average in reliability compared to all new cars surveyed (2nd best of 5 levels), and G80 below average (4th best of 5).
    1