Comments by "upabittoolate" (@upabittoolate) on "Reporter Handcuffed For Asking Questions" video.

@Arperture2008 True. But that's beside my point.
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@elkadir70 It's a TRESPASS. They held the guy until the cops showed. They followed procedure. Being disruptive is an incidental complication the trespassing law that he already committed. A security guard can & will put someone in cuffs. Whether or not he was asking tough questions is inconsequential. It's not your, my or the officials' place to make that qualitative judgment. What I'm referring to here is a trespass. Besides, "unlawful detainment" refers to PROPERTY numbnuts.
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@Papwithanhatchet You have no idea what you're talking about. On top of that you're arguing on emotion sans any fact, reason or context. PAthetic.
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@DillonDee1 I don't disagree with you there. They aren't equivalent. But the fact that someone who isn't invited, is asked to leave then doesn't is then trespassing doesn't change no matter how subtle the difference between "permitted to use" & "rented" is.
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@TheBug1961 That's hardy what I said. I said it's up to the prosecution to prove or disprove a case & it's up to the judge or jury to make a judgment not the police. I also said that "public" is a fluid concept in this case. If that guy's organization rented or reserved that place, a person can be trespassed. Why aren't you guys getting that nuance? And yes, a security guard CAN cuff you until the fuzz gets there. There's no free speech violation here.
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@redcrosseknightmusic If you're in my bar & I ask you to leave but you don't you're trespassing. It's a crime. Legally, I can restrain you until the cops show up. I guess you've never been to a sporting event or an open-air festival & seen the cats in the yellow shirts with cuffs on their gearbelts. So on top of your bizarro universe, you're blind too.
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@DillonDee1 You can be arrested if you don't comply with a request to leave. Trespassing, no matter if it's violent or not, is criminalized for that reason: to deter trespassers. Again, we can argue the degree of criminality. Hell, I agree that cuffing the reporter was excessive. But I gotta say, Miller's people were well within their rights in this instance.
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@UltraComboer We have to ask ourselves if there was a permit & what was covered by the permit. Also, was that facility rented? They do rent public facilities. Y'know. Were the security guards off-duty officers? I don't like Miller at all. But we can't summarily sue (hypothetically of course) the guy from the info we got from a 75sec video from a political vlog with politically opposing viewpoints.
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@elkadir70 Do you know for certain that he was invited? I honestly don't. Irrespective, once he un-invites himself, it's incumbent on him to leave when asked to do so. And you make a good point about whether it was Miller's event or if he was on the appearance card. But again, these are nuances that I honestly don't know. Nevertheless, if he was asked to leave, if it was Miller's shindig, the guards have a right to keep him there til the police come.
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@DillonDee1 Awesome. Texas is a really nice state. My only regret is that I haven't seen more of it. Nevertheless, I think you, at least, see my reasoning. Again, I don't agree with Miller's politics at all. But I respect (and will defend) his right to assemble with whomever he pleases. Is it intuitive to exclude someone who's not only a voter but a wielder of the mighty pen? Probably not. But it's his prerogative. And if he paid to use (or simply reserved) that space, the law's on his side.
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@DillonDee1 At Padre Island, there's reservation fees to camp. Can a random person just walk into your campsite? No. It's trespassing. At Walker Ranch, it's almost $75/hr to use their picnic tables. Can a reporter come & disturb me in the picnic area while I'm eating? No. It's trespassing. Sorry. I'm gonna throw in with Miller's people this time.
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You guys should all read the bylaws on imminent domain and read "Private Security & the Law" by Charles Nemeth. It'll clear up much of the debate.
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@Relyt22 Private security nabs & gaffles people all the time. Don't shoplifters get cuffed? I guess you don't live in real life.
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@Papwithanhatchet That's up to the prosecutor's discretion. That doesn't mean the guards weren't within their rights. Plenty of cases are kicked out for a myriad of reasons. You make the corollary argument that, since there was prosecution they were wrong. The cops didn't arrest the guards for false imprisonment or battery did they? Okay then.
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@DillonDee1 And don't get me wrong. It's definitely splitting hairs. But just because things are considered "property of the state" doesn't mean you can't bopped for trespassing. I can't go to a beach at certain times of night in Corpus Christi, for instance, without worrying about being hassled by the fuzz. Right?
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@redcrosseknightmusic Private security can't handcuff someone? So loss prevention doesn't handcuff boosters in grocery & department stores? Bouncers don't beligerants? Thanks for clearing that up for me. You must live in a bizarro dimension. In the real world, I've worked at grocery & department stores. I've also bounced bars. Guards absolutely cuff people. And being someplace that someone rented or bought a permit to use without that host's consent IS a crime: trespassing.
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@Papwithanhatchet I never said they hold authority above the law you moron. I said that they hold some authority & it's within their rights to hold someone until the police come. Jesus did you even read the comment or are you just being a reactionary? Get off MY nuts.
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@waltermh111 I heard Cenk say it. Fine. I won't take for granted that police are always correct about the law. I don't know about you, but I haven't been convicted for every crime for which I was arrested. "Public property" is fluid, as I've explained more than once. But I'll repeat the finer points since you wanna argue. 1, Miller's people, if they hold a permit for the assembly, if they rented the place or even had it reserved can say the guy was trespassing. (cont'd)
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@coolsnowmen Yeah, that's what I was saying too. It's not kidnapping to restrain someone until the police come. Otherwise every shoplifter in history would've sued the stores.
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@arachnophile01 If he tells you to get off his lawn & you refuse then yes, he absolutely is within his rights to grab your ass & keep you until the fuzz gets there. But that's not the case here. We're talking about the rights of a facility renter & the private security he employs. But don't take my word or floow my line of reasoning. Read the precedent's in Nemeth's "Private Security & the Law" for yourself. You'll see I'm right. "... could gag me..." Extreme strawman argument much?
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@DillonDee1 If it was rented or a permit was obtained, it wasn't "public domain" at that time; it was not community property; it was private. For instance, if I get a permit to throw a party at a section of a beach or have a wedding at a forest preserve & someone crashes, he's considered a trespasser.
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@jakobdrewaut I don't agree with Miller's policy. It was more than cowardly to avoid being hammered by questions. BUT he was within his rights here as I understand the laws. And believe me, this isn't the 1st time I've seen something akin to this instance. I've seen a guy get unruly in a bar, refuse to leave then getting slapped in cuffs by guards before being formally charged with a trespass & a disorderly. I've sen that same guy try to get an unlawful restrain charge on a bouncer as a counter.
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(cont'd) 2, if the guy persisted when asked to leave, it's trespassing. 3, security guards, although they ain't cops, actually hold a measure of authority. Plenty of guards have cuffed people until the plice arrive; it's not uncommon. You talked about laws being broken. In this instance, the guy WAS trespassing & he WAS being disorderly. In the end, it's not even up for the cops to determine, that gets done in court. Why are you trying so hard to not understand another perspective?
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@Papwithanhatchet The person who lacks capacity is the person who ignores nuance & refuses to observe another viewpoint than his own. It appears that's the case in your debate's framing. Like I said, if there's a reservation, rental or permit, that implies possession even if it's just temporary. In addition, privately hired security has a set of responsibilities & some measure of power. Want proof? Read the precedents in the book I suggested... if you've the capacity.
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@Relyt22 The hell they can't. Security guards handcuff people all the time. As for you premise about people being aggressive, that's the security guards' premise in this case. And rented property is considered private property. For instance, I work for Denver Parks & Rec. People often rent our facilities. While it's under contract, it's considered "private" in so much as the only people allowed to be there during the rental are invited guests.
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@redcrosseknightmusic Put it like this. If you bust out my window, I grab your ass & keep you in my garage until the cops come, it's not an unlawful restraint because you've damaged my property AND violated vandalism mandates. Now we can argue about the magnitude of the reporter's "crime" but we can't argue whether or not he was trespassing because the moment he was asked to leave, he should've left. The fact that he didn't leave constitutes a crime, albeit a minor crime.
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@jakobdrewaut Dude, they do it all the time. Loss prevention professionals nab & cuff people in stores... in the United States. Bouncers often restrain people in nightclubs... in the United States. "Could be illegal" and "resultant in observance of precedents set" are 2 different things. But don't take my word for it. Google "Charles Nemeth". Some of his book is available for perusal in pdf files. Lemme know what you think.
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@jakobdrewaut And even still, "privately hired" means that the guard there is some licensure. In the state of Colorado (where I currently live) it's not state regulated but every town requires a licensing fee of $30 or so. Does that mean that having a clip-on tie & a tin badge makes you Hawai'i 5-0? Of course not. But people holding those licenses have a small degree of power. And "public place" only goes so far. As I was telling the other guy, permits, reservations & rent limit public access.
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@DillonDee1 Miller had a permit to have an assembly there. That's rented in my book.
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Not exactly. If the candidate's campaign rented the facility, it's their prerogative to employ security. Here's an anecdote: If I rent a nightclub, I can have use right? The bouncers have ordinance to restrain (often til the cops come) unsavory patrons. The same goes here. As for your free speech argument, this ain't a free speech issue. Free speech simply ensures that the gov't can't prosecute you for dissent. Don't use the blanket of free w/o examining what's protected by the Amendment.
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@DillonDee1 For 1, it wasn't in Texas. For 2, I just googled "the legal difference between renting a public place & having a permit to use a public place". Guess what state came up 1st... You guessed it: the Lone Star State. But most of all, TX is awfully large. It's kinda generalizing to say that legal practice in Dallas is the same as it is in Corpus Christi. Doncha think?
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@DillonDee1 So there's no such thing as trespassing because it's public property? So I can storm into the mayor's office. Right? After all, it's private property. Hell, the Pentagon is a gov't building; let's head into the war-room. Better yet, I live in Denver, the FBI office isn't far from my home. Wanna go sightseeing there? Let's see how far we get. Shit, NORAD ain't 20mi from here. Let's go have a picnic there. I'll buy gas AND food for the trip. See how silly your argument gets?
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@DillonDee1 I too camped on a beach at Corpus Chirsti with some friends. Guess what: we had to get a permit. That was '94. I'm not sure when you attended college. Perhaps things have changed since then. If so, kudos to that administration. But keeping cohesion with my original premise, someone can't just walk to your campsite & park it. C'mon dude, you know I'm right.
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@GJNCA The crime is trespassing. The moment you're asked to leave & don't it's trespassing. That much is clear. Hell, my brother-in-law (at the time) asked me to leave his home when he & my sister were arguing. He went so far as to call the police. I got arrested for trespassing even though my sister, who owned half of everything there, didn't ask me to leave. I'm saying that to say that it's a trespass. That's illegal in every state mate.
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@jakobdrewaut Dude, it's not random people. It's official security. Are you gonna come with something actual or just make up suppositions from whole cloth?
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