Comments by "Wandering Existence" (@WanderingExistence) on "Jordan B Peterson Clips"
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@meh.7640 What are you talking about? Capitalism doesn't humanely deal with money... Capitalism literally fires 10,000 workers and then does tens of billions of dollars of share buybacks?! Hey, it made me richer increased my stock portfolio.... But that's right that's all it did for society, is make me richer. Cooperatives on the other hand work too preserve jobs even when there's an economic downturn. Cooperatives work together, they can establish democratic modes of resource allocation that doesn't use money.
Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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@meh.7640 You keep using that word, socialism, I don't think you know what it means. Cooperatives are a form of non-governmental social ownership.
Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. https://youtu.be/MObfh_VNqs4
Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
"In the 11 years since then, Evergreen Cooperatives has added three more cooperatives to its ranks, growing from two companies with a total of 18 workers in 2010 to five companies with approximately 320 workers. Those workers are paid 20 to 25 percent higher than employees at the cooperative’s competitors. “Our average pay rate is close to $15,” says John McMicken, CEO of Evergreen Cooperative Initiative. “But when you take profit sharing into account, which could equate to $4 to $5 an hour, we’re hoping that we have a shot at breaking the $20 an hour ‘blended rate,’ if you will.” In 2019, the average compensation at Evergreen Cooperative Laundry was around $18 per hour." - Despite a Rocky Start, Cleveland Model for Worker Co-ops Stands Test of Time, by Brandon Duong
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Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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@DzikiFinansista What do you mean I can't imagine another system? Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. https://youtu.be/MObfh_VNqs4 Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. Building social ownership and economic democracy is immensely important. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives. For another example the Evergreen Cooperative was the inspiration for the Preston model, here's how that's going after over a decade;
"In the 11 years since then, Evergreen Cooperatives has added three more cooperatives to its ranks, growing from two companies with a total of 18 workers in 2010 to five companies with approximately 320 workers. Those workers are paid 20 to 25 percent higher than employees at the cooperative’s competitors. “Our average pay rate is close to $15,” says John McMicken, CEO of Evergreen Cooperative Initiative. “But when you take profit sharing into account, which could equate to $4 to $5 an hour, we’re hoping that we have a shot at breaking the $20 an hour ‘blended rate,’ if you will.” In 2019, the average compensation at Evergreen Cooperative Laundry was around $18 per hour." - Despite a Rocky Start, Cleveland Model for Worker Co-ops Stands Test of Time, by Brandon Duong
P.S. my stocks went up again today- semiconductors and AI are so hot right now, lmao. Simply, just a reminder, I'm not some inept socialist... I'm a capitalist that will tell you like it is; economic democracy is more accountable to society, capitalism creates deadly wealth and power inequality. That's just the facts.
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@JavierGomezX Zizek's point is that ideology is the framework each and every one of us sees the world through. Ideology helps us structure our desire to desire things and channels that in ways that give us a sense of meaning (religiosity, patriotism, consumerism, just to name a few). The concept is what he calls The Sublime Object Of Ideology (the title of his first book), which is where he uses the Hegelian dialectic as a way of reconciling the conscious and the unconscious in a way that revives Marx with the psychoanalysis of Lacan. This is why in their debate he said he was much more of a Hegelian but he is still a materialist. I've found Zizek's work to be very insightful and helps enhance ones awareness and skepticism of the ideologies that they consume.
So I would say learning some Hegel is key to understanding Zizek (and Marx as well). What I love about him is that he brings together a lot of thinkers- he's amazingly well read and also well published, I believe he has over 50 books- but that can also make it a daunting task, lmao. Personally, I'm dyslexic so I mainly listen to his lectures and other people's helpful summaries. As somebody who has spent the past 3 months studying Zizek (with 1 month prior on Hegel) I would recommend understand some of the basics of the Hegelian Dialectic and then jump into his lectures. There's this one guy, Julien de Medeiros, who specializes in summarizing Zizek and he has been massively helpful. But if you want a quick video on his idea The Sublime Object Of Ideology the channel Epoch Philosophy has a great 30 minute video on it.
Personally, I love just listening to hours of Zizek talk, obviously getting through his thick Slovenian accent with all his sniffleish ticks isn't for everyone, but he is a funny guy. He has several jokes that humorously explain the Hegalian dialectic, I'll share one of his two famous coffee jokes with you;
A man is dropping a woman off at her house, she turns to him and says "would you like to come up for coffee". The man replies "I would love to but I don't drink coffee", she insists "That's okay, I don't have any coffee".
Not to ruin the joke through explanation, but it's in a dialectical fashion that there was a material negation of the offer so that a higher message is being communicated. Eroticism is the ideology being expressed through the dialectical reconciliation of the material fact of no coffee and the idea of it being offered.
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Monopoly was created to critique land rent. But honestly, we also need to critique wage labor and interest on capital. Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods.
This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital". This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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@braydensimmons1408 Capitalism isn't some idealistic notion. What we have is real capitalism. The FED is a part of modern capitalism.... You just got to get over that fact. This holdover of Platonic Forms is really childish- as Nietzsche said 'God is dead' and that includes the realm of these fanticle Platonic Forms. Real capitalism is a reconciliation between the ideal and the material. The way you're talking about capitalism is like if I ordered a Coke and it was slightly watered down, no longer being crisp or cold... And I said "it wasn't real Coca-Cola". Nah, it's really just not the type of Coca-Cola they sold you in the commercial. Just because it's slightly warm and flat doesn't make it Pepsi, its still Coca-Cola even though it's not your ideal form of it.
Personally, I've been interested in two grassroots groups focused on economic democracy, called the Next System Project and the Democracy Collaborative. They have devised a way to keep production local and contract service to cooperatives, called the Preston Model. They have helped multiple cities struggling with job loss due to factory closures build back their communities, in the US and UK. In addition, trade unions, collectives, public banks, credit unions, community land trusts, CSA's, and many other democratically controlled institutions can work together to create democratic networks outside the market to create an economy that doesn't reduce people, their governments, and the environment to a monetary value. I think this can be a viable strategy to give people the autonomy over their work. I believe economic democracy is the only way people who work for the economy will have the economy work for them, their families, and the planet too.
This way of revitalizing communities by building community wealth has helped many communities all over the globe, and it is utilized by the UK labor party and touted by Jeremy Corbyn. Preston, Lancashire became the most improved city in the UK because of community wealth building. Not to mention, much of the progress in labor rights has been due to union's collective power. The thing that draws my conviction to the movement is that I can see it now, helping empower people to live happier, healthier, and wealthier lives.
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@codyvandal2860 You do realize private property came about through government intervention like Henry VII land structuring under the Protestant Reformation or the US Homestead Acts after the genocidal push of Manifest Destiny. Extortion is mutually beneficial; You get to keep access to your farm and you pay me rent... Everybody's a winner now, right?
Trade only makes sense once you've dispossessed/ threaten people of what they need, there are many other ways of organizing that can be mutually beneficial. Not to mention, there are many externalities associated with trade.... So the fallacy of mutual beneficiality kind of falls apart once you realize that negative externalities shift costs onto innocent bystanders. The hilarious thing is, that as much as you guys talk about wanting responsibility you will do nothing to internalize negative externalities. Soooo basically, you guys really don't care about responsibility or mutually beneficial relationships. You care about projecting yourself through society, objectifying humans as capital instruments, by way of your money relations.
I own stocks, these companies give me dividends and stock buybacks for literally no work.... I don't know why you think I should be getting compensated when I did absolutely no work, but sure I'll take it. Google hired a bunch of people, then within a few months rudely fired them.... And then proceeded to do $70 billion of stock buybacks. Lmao, it doesn't sound mutually beneficial... If I'm going to be humbly honest, that sounds like a massively benefited me over the workers who got abruptly laid off. You realize worker cooperatives who don't have shareholders actually preserve jobs during downturns and decrease management salaries as one of the first cost cutting measures instead of letting hardworking people go. They do that because they are directly accountable to their workers... So they don't externalize profit-seeking costs onto an innocent worker who just got hired and now is out of a job again. Capitalistic CEOs could show responsibility in taking care of their workforce but instead they choose greed over stewardship; they have to choose greed, the market will punish them eventually if they don't. But what do I know, I've only rigorously studied finance, economics, and political philosophy for over a decade 😂🤣
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@peterleversha9651 Real capitalism" doesn't exist... True capitalism is mediated through the ideal and the material, you'll never be able to have Pure Capitalism because the real world is never ideal. Get over it and graduate high school. Ironically, historically modern capitalism started with interest-bearing loans from the Medici. Lol.
Besides, why do you even want capitalism? Wage labor is renting yourself via "self ownership". Employment is literally renting another human being as if they're property. The employer-employee relationship is a very insidious dynamic. Employment is a rental contract, like if you rented capital (say, a chainsaw from Home Depot), you pay rent for the "time preference" (basically the cost of time) for a piece of property. Capitalism is based on a principle of self ownership, which sounds empowering, until you realize that most people don't own capital goods other than themselves, and must rent out the authority over themselves as pieces of "human capital".
This is a process of dehumanization where human beings are valued for their return on investment as capital goods. This is why, at the very least, capitalism needs unions and safety nets (or abolishment), or else the system won't value people for their human value. Importantly we must also think about our sick, elderly, and disabled people, as they can't provide competitive economic return for the investor class to value. We must figure out a way to change this economic system if we wish to value each other.
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@braydensimmons1408 Oh you're still stuck in your platonic forms of "completely free markets"... Yeah and I wish I had a Coca-Cola that was always crisp and cold and never warmed up. To be honest I don't think you really understood what I wrote.... Real capitalism is a mediation between ideal and material facts. Not every Coca-Cola is ideal, nor is Capitalism (If I had fancy lettering, I'd spell "capitalism" here in the same memed font as Coca-Cola). Warm flat Coca-Cola is still Coca-Cola... Just because it's not the idealized version doesn't make it some other type of soft drink. Private property with market interactions is still capitalism even though it's not the idealized version you would like, it doesn't make it some other form of economy. It's capitalism.
The democracy collaborative and next system project are things that are actually helping people in this society rather than crying about platonic forms. Yes, it is a transitionary type of movement towards democratic socialism (That's not a hidden agenda), but if it empowers people then I say all the more power to it. The Evergreen Cooperative in Cleveland Ohio was the inspiration for the Preston model across the pond. Let's see how that one's doing over a decade of helping its workers;
"In the 11 years since then, Evergreen Cooperatives has added three more cooperatives to its ranks, growing from two companies with a total of 18 workers in 2010 to five companies with approximately 320 workers. Those workers are paid 20 to 25 percent higher than employees at the cooperative’s competitors. “Our average pay rate is close to $15,” says John McMicken, CEO of Evergreen Cooperative Initiative. “But when you take profit sharing into account, which could equate to $4 to $5 an hour, we’re hoping that we have a shot at breaking the $20 an hour ‘blended rate,’ if you will.” In 2019, the average compensation at Evergreen Cooperative Laundry was around $18 per hour." - Despite a Rocky Start, Cleveland Model for Worker Co-ops Stands Test of Time, by Brandon Duong
P.S. As somebody who owns stocks the Fed does not bother me, Sure they raise interest rates on a ridiculously lagged timeline and bumble so many different aspects, but ultimately they provide long-term bull markets for the companies allowing them to borrow a cheap credit from a highly preserved institution. Say what you want about it but it increases corporate profits and that's why it exists. If you like capitalism and think the profit motive will bring the best out of everything... You better get happy with government intervention, because that sh!t is profitable. Businesses love utilizing the government to make more profit for shareholders. I'm just telling you like it is, I'm a shareholder.
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