Comments by "Simon" (@Simon-dm8zv) on "Donut" channel.

  1. You are so misinformed. The ONLY reason hydrogen is so expensive is because it is so HORRIBLY inefficient. This will never change.
    3
  2. ‘I think’ 😂
    3
  3.  @bcallahan3806  There is a lot of work being done to battery recycling already. This is an interesting watch: https://youtu.be/xLr0GStrnwQ Also: hydrogen cars will also cause waste: lithium batteries, fuel tanks, fuel cells.
    3
  4. Not relevant because guess what, for hydrogen production you need EXACTLY THE SAME electricity.
    3
  5. Yup. Simple physics.
    3
  6.  @BlakeB415  I was talking about Teslas indeed. Like I said, a 15 minute charge is nothing on a long trip. You would normally probably take a longer break anyway. And again: in daily life you actually save lots of time opposed to refueling because charging happens when you sleep. Please provide a source for the diesel generator story, never heard of that before. Driving electric is always the cleanest option, even on carbon heavy electricity. Hydrogen rarely comes near that level because it is so damn inefficient. 90%+ recycling of lithium batteries is absolutely no problem. Look up Redwood Materials and American Manganese.
    3
  7. Easily compensated for when you start driving.
    3
  8. Charging an EV takes only 20 minutes at a fast charger. Hydrogen fuel cells are made of finite resources and fuel cells in general have a short life (shorter than a battery).
    3
  9.  @mazirius11  We could indeed use hydrogen for surplus storage (if there is anything left anyway), but that does not mean we should put it in cars. It is more efficient to store and convert the hydrogen at centralized plants and then distribute the electricity over the grid when needed for anything we like.
    3
  10. ​ @mazirius11  The majority of charging moments are low power (for example overnight AC charging). Most EV drivers only use fast DC chargers occasionally and need about 10 kWh per day for normal commuting. These are rather low numbers and do not really form a thread to the grid in general. High power DC chargers do indeed require a more heavy duty grid connection, but this is manageable because they are not located all over the place.
    3
  11. lol where did you get these idiotic numbers and information
    3
  12. Very inefficient.
    3
  13. If there is an exceptional amount of wind, you just crank up charging speeds of EV chargers. Much easier and already exists.
    3
  14.  @TheDirtyBirchTrails  Ah alright. So that has nothing to do with on-board hydrogen production. Anyway, the point with hydrogen combustion in engines is that it is even more inefficient than conversion in a fuel cell..
    3
  15. Hydrogen cars have batteries.
    3
  16. You would need insane numbers of solar panels to produce enough hydrogen.
    3
  17. You would need a big battery for that xD
    3
  18. Hydrogen cars require batteries as well + a fuel cell and a fuel tank. Current EV batteries outlast the rest of the vehicle. Hydrogen high pressure components are designed for 10 years but the fuel cell itself will be worn out way before that - as well as the batteries that have to cycle much more than EV batteries.
    2
  19.  @devinbender8428  Exactly.
    2
  20. Guess what, the electricity comes from exactly the same source as where the hydrogen factory gets it...
    2
  21. Just use a fast charger.
    2
  22. The point is EVs require much less of that energy.
    2
  23. Overproduction of renewables in the summer could indeed be stored in the form of hydrogen. But then it would still be very inefficient to use it in vehicles. Better just convert it back to electricity and charge EVs with it.
    2
  24. Natural gas produces about the same amount of CO2 as diesel or gasoline...
    2
  25. But hydrogen cars will never get anywhere close to the efficiency of an EV. That is the real problem.
    2
  26.  @abansalify  For hydrogen cars you need lithium, cobalt, nickel, copper and platinum. And in order to create enough renewable energy for hydrogen production you need to build and maintain 3 times as many solar panels and windturbines compared to EVs. It’s a misconception that hydrogen cars solve the material problem.
    2
  27. Too inefficient
    2
  28.  @roninviking  Regarding combustion in the engine: comparable. Regarding well to wheel efficiency: hard to say. LPG comes from a fossil source, hydrogen is (ideally) made from electricity.
    2
  29.  @technologyrethinked  True, but the efficiency is key to reduce CO2-emissions. A combustion engine on hydrogen would consume at least 5 times more electricity per kilometer than an EV.
    2
  30. He did not mention production of the batteries, fuel tanks and fuel cell for the hydrogen car either.
    2
  31.  @jameshunter4386  So why not simply drive an electric motor with that energy from the battery?
    2
  32.  @michaelfrehner4858  No they don't do that. Battery packs are made to size. That WDR video is full of lies and based on wrong data. Auke Hoekstra (University of Eindhoven) explains why it is wrong in this Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1349705031235284993?s=20
    2
  33.  @210SAi  Thermodynamics.
    2
  34. Wrong. Those losses account for both hydrogen and electric vehicles so they do not have to be included.
    2
  35.  @rexli1887  Please elaborate.
    2
  36.  @rexli1887  But all the losses after the energy generation stage are incredibly high for hydrogen vehicles.
    2
  37. It changes literally nothing, apart from the energy that comes from the solar panel - but that will be completely negligible.
    2
  38. They have been around for decades. Still very inefficient. Batteries are far better and this will always remain so. It's just simple physics.
    2
  39. Sure, hydrogen may play a role in energy storage. However, that doesn't mean we should put it in cars.
    2
  40. "You have not factored in the real cost of creating the electricity for EV's." - Not relevant. They both start with the same electricity. "You have not factored in the cost and environmental aspects of the batteries." - Not relevant. He didn't factor in the cost and environmental aspects of the batteries, fuel tanks and fuel cell that go in a hydrogen car either. "Hydrogen costs will plummet drastically once the infrastructure is in place and the numbers grow." - Wrong. Hydrogen will remain VERY inefficient and therefore expensive, no matter the scale.
    2
  41. Why would it be?
    2
  42. Doesn't change much. Still waaay better.
    2
  43. Not really. There will always be an average number of EVs charging at any given moment of the day. Therefore there will be barely any renewable surplus.
    2
  44. Not really. You are referring to the Hyundai Nexo. Hyundai says it CLEANS the air by filtering small particles (fine dust) from the air that is sucked through the grill of the car. That has nothing to do with CO2 removal, let alone this could be called ‘negative emissions’ because the CO2 caused by hydrogen production is incredibly high.
    2
  45.  @dariushober1506  I would love it to work, but it is just simple physics. Of course the vehicle can function during a demonstration, but only as long as the batteries that power the fuel cells are not depleted. That’s all.
    2
  46.  @dariushober1506  It’s impossible. You cannot create more energy than you started with. The energy that the hydrogen generates by combusting inside the engine can NEVER be more than the electric energy that was used to make it in the first place. Basic thermodynamics.
    2
  47. It’s not biased because both hydrogen and EVs start with the same electricity. It’s not relevant what happens before that step.
    2
  48. Well explained Casper.
    2
  49. Those conversion losses are NOTHING compared to all the steps that hydrogen has to go through.
    2
  50. Exactly.
    2
  51. Hydrogen cars are barely lighter than EVs. Batteries are FAR more efficient and less carbon intense during their entire lifespan.
    2
  52. ICEs are history soon. Get over it.
    2
  53. Both types of vehicles start with electricity...
    2
  54. Still much better than hydrogen.
    2
  55. No, it would not boost the efficiency. The low efficiency is caused by the losses during electrolysis, compression, transport en conversion in the fuel cell.
    2
  56. Too heavy, too big and unnecessary. Current EVs can already do 500 to 600 km.
    2
  57. EV will always win efficiency wise. And no, transmissions losses in the grid are not a lot. Only about 5%.
    2
  58. Lol so where do you think materials for hydrogen cars come from?!
    2
  59. Wrong, where does the hydrogen factory get their power? THE GRID.
    2
  60. Of course you can split water on board a vehicle, but you need to have an energy source to keep doing that. So guess what, you still need to charge a big battery.
    2
  61. Wrong. Electric cars are cleaner despite the fact that battery production causes emissions.
    2
  62.  @untoastedbread0  Again, electric cars are cleaner. I didn't say they produce zero emissions.
    2
  63. Exactly
    2
  64. Not really. Natural gas produces almost just as much CO2 as gasoline.
    1
  65. Lol
    1
  66. I advise you to read a little bit about basic laws of physics. Thermodynamics specifically.
    1
  67. It's pretty bad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPR50-soNA&t=21s
    1
  68. You cannot compare emissions or energy consumption to waste disposal.
    1
  69. Hydrogen cars are not greener. Battery production is currently at about 100 kg of CO2 per kWh. Pretty good and this is decreased every year.
    1
  70.  @whatahack  Many companies are currently preparing for mass EV battery recycling. Look up Redwood Materials and American Manganese.
    1
  71.  @whatahack  Yeah probably it is. But everything is relative of course. It is the best option we have. But of course, buying a bicycle is better than an electric car.
    1
  72. It's a myth.
    1
  73. Not at all. The restriction is physics. Hydrogen cars can never become significantly more efficient.
    1
  74. Surplus renewable energy will be less of a problem when more EVs enter the road.
    1
  75. Because you cannot have both in a average size car. Hydrogen tanks take up a lot of space and so do batteries.
    1
  76.  @engineeringtheweirdguy2103  Well said.
    1
  77. Of course not. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are highly complex which makes them expensive to build and requires much more maintenance than an EV. Apart from that they are much more expensive to run than an EV. Does not sound like something that fits in developing countries at all.
    1
  78. That is such a famous misconception. Driving an EV is always the least polluting option. Even if you mainly use coal heavy electricity.
    1
  79. Same applies to hydrogen cars. Answer is simple: recycling.
    1
  80. There is no reason to support it and it is no new technology either.
    1
  81. No, it is not. The production emissions of batteries are quickly compensated for when you start driving.
    1
  82. ​ @chromeproduction  Depends of the manufacturer how much there is needed for a battery pack. But yes, cobalt is a bit of a concern. However, cobalt has been used for decades in various different electrical appliances (hydrogen cars included) and also the oil industry is one of the biggest consumers of cobalt for industrial catalysts (desulphurisation of fuels).
    1
  83. Please elaborate on 'the vehicle can produce its own fuel now'.
    1
  84. Yeah but CO2 is the problem you know..
    1
  85.  @mikoajzpolski5550  Lol no they do not
    1
  86. Wrong. The oil industry is one of the big drivers behind hydrogen adoption. They would love to see a world in which ‘gas’ stations still exist. Luckily without succes!
    1
  87. This is an English video
    1
  88. No problem sir
    1
  89. Not really
    1
  90. In order to makes batteries and fuel cells for hydrogen cars don’t you have to mine for the materials that make up the battery and fuel cell.
    1
  91. Nope. Hydrogen cars pollute A LOT more because they consume waaay more electricity.
    1
  92.  @ruebo2817  For that situation you will still have to create and maintain 3 to 4 times as many solar panels and windturbines compared to going for battery electric vehicles.
    1
  93. Meh, in the near future there will be so many EVs charging at any moment of the day that there won’t be any excess power from renewables.
    1
  94. Hydrogen cars will always remain inefficient.
    1
  95.  @le6394  The point with your first comment is that I very often see people throwing around ridiculous random numbers that other people tend to repeat while they are actually far of.
    1
  96.  @le6394  It takes only 30.000 km (20k miles), so that is 2 to 3 years!
    1
  97. Hydrogen vehicles are not considerably lighter than battery vehicles. Hydrogen tanks and fuel cells are heavy. Hydrogen tanks also take up a lot of space. Hydrogen planes? Yes, possibly in the far future. Cooking on hydrogen? Not really. Electric cook tops are far more efficient and so are heat pumps.
    1
  98.  @markmitchell3596  There will be plenty of trucking companies completely satisfied with electric drivetrains. The costs per mile will be much lower than diesel or hydrogen. Long haul 24hr trucking is a different story but will follow later as batteries and charging technology improves (i.e. Tesla Semi and Megachargers). I know Bosch likes hydrogen and is installing boilers in the UK. They simply like to keep things the way they are so they can keep selling appliances that burn gas. This does however not prove that it is a great idea - because it is not. Hydrogen is super inefficient and thus requires much more electricity than fully electric heating systems would.
    1
  99. There is no engine lol
    1
  100. But well to wheel efficiency is MUCH worse for hydrogen cars.
    1
  101.  @niccotinamid  Unfortunately the efficiency is limited by laws of physics.
    1
  102. Charging at a fast charger does not take long. Millions of EVs have been doing fine in winter for about a decade in Norway.
    1
  103. You would need an insanely large roof to accomodate enough solar panels.
    1
  104.  @ramondejesusperez1428  Sure, but like I said: A LOT LESS than a hydrogen car requires (the factor is 2 to 3). Batteries do not need replacing in modern EVs. Scotty Kilmer is a nice guy but he doesn’t know shit about EVs.
    1
  105. LOL you don't realize how much electricity is required to make hydrogen?
    1
  106. Hydrogen will always remain super inefficient. It's not a solution at all.
    1
  107. Hydrogen cars have batteries too.
    1
  108. hydrogen is the fuel, not the construction of the car.
    1
  109. You forgot about CO2.
    1
  110. Supercharging is very fast dude.
    1
  111.  @NightBreakerDK  Depends on where you live. Tesla supercharger network is really well covered in Europe and North America which makes road tripping very easy. The charger plugs are already standardized.
    1
  112. Not more efficient at all. Show me where that 70% comes from.
    1
  113. Water is not hydrogen
    1
  114. Hydrogen is not a thing in Europe either (Germany has a few stations but that is about it). Everyone is focused on battery electric cars. Same for China.
    1
  115. Nope. It’s not the same. Battery materials only need to be mined once. Petroleum products over and over.
    1
  116.  @cobrabite2291  Fuel cells, tanks and the batteries in hydrogen cars also require mining and recycling while the car is also super inefficient during its entire lifetime.
    1
  117. Lol it's not. It's just physics. Hydrogen is dumb.
    1
  118. yea but you need to make it first
    1
  119. Any mass produced product is bad for the environment.
    1
  120.  @chrissinclair4442  But you need a lot more electric energy to feed them, so that means we have to build and maintain 3x as many wind turbines and solar panels.
    1
  121. Not at all. Hydrogen. Will. Always. Remain. Inefficient.
    1
  122. Electric cars are always cleaner so it is not relevant.
    1
  123.  @playboyharishkathu  EVs are cleaner than diesel or petrol cars per kilometer. Current batteries will outlast the car.
    1
  124. Wrong. Big oil loves hydrogen and that is exactly one of the reasons we shouldn't want this.
    1
  125. Wrong. Hydrogen will always remain inefficient, that has nothing to do with the number of refilling stations. Excess renewable power will be consumed by charging cars.
    1
  126. EVs are by far the least polluting option there is. And no, water does not disappear during production.
    1
  127. That is a common misconception. We won't be charging all at the same time and we only need about 10 kWh a day on average.
    1
  128. Nope
    1
  129. Nothing wrong with lithium mate
    1
  130. Lol you have no clue. EVs and their batteries easily last 10 years.
    1
  131. If hydrogen was a great solution this could well be combined with AI. These things have nothing to do with eachother.
    1
  132.  @nigels_view  Of course the Tesla has. But you are claiming that hydrogen was killed of ‘because it cannot be part of AI technology’ which is obviously not the case.
    1
  133.  @nigels_view  A hydrogen car literally is an electric car with some additional components like fuel tanks and a fuel cell.
    1
  134. About just as bad. Even worse for human health.
    1
  135.  @paperhouse6282  Yup
    1
  136. “Hydrogen fuel factories generate their own electricity using hydrogen” lol what?! 😂😂
    1
  137. THIS
    1
  138. You forgot that you need A LOT of solar energy.
    1
  139. It’s just physics. It will never work at an acceptable level.
    1
  140.  @SovietRosco  It's highly inefficient to first generate electricity, then convert it to hydrogen, then compress it to hundreds of bar, then transport it, then put in in a car, and eventually convert it back to electricity. It will never become considerably less inefficient.
    1
  141.  @SovietRosco  Well there are many industries requiring vast amounts of renewable hydrogen as a feedstock. I don't know about profitability but that is where the focus should be at least. Not at road vehicles.
    1
  142.  @SovietRosco  Production by electrolysis is fine, but we should save the hydrogen produced for applications where there is no alternative.
    1
  143.  @SovietRosco  like I said, industrial processes that require hydrogen as a feedstock. For example fertilizer and steel alloy production.
    1
  144. The video is correct because both hydrogen cars and EVs start with electricity.
    1
  145. ​@windson7 Lol transportation accounts for 28% of the total greenhouse gas emissions. Industry 22%. Methane and LPG are barely any better than gasoline and diesel.
    1
  146. So tell me, what is the problem with lithium mining? And you think that the lithium, cobalt, nickel and platinum for hydrogen cars come falling from the skies? And no, solar panels on top of a gas station are BY FAR not enough to create any considerable amount of hydrogen.
    1
  147.  @duarteolival4177  Again, there IS lithium involved in hydrogen cars as they have lithium-ion batteries on board. And no, the Icelandic solar panels do not solve the hydrogen production problem. It’s the electrolysis that is intrinsically inefficient.
    1
  148.  @duarteolival4177  Electrolysis can only be marginally improved and then there remain massive losses in compression, transport and conversion in the fuel cell.
    1
  149.  @duarteolival4177  Sure, but only marginally. Simple laws of physics will prevent any substantial improvement of efficiency. That’s the whole problem.
    1
  150. 99% of all hydrogen is produced from natural gas.
    1
  151. Would require three times as many solar panels compared to a simple EV.
    1
  152. Not really. AC only consumes about 1 kW which is nothing compared to the drivetrain consumption.
    1
  153. Exactly. And apart from that: EV's are ALWAYS the cleanest option, even if you use coal heavy electricity.
    1
  154. EV is greener. Hydrogen cars also need ‘rare’ earth materials.
    1
  155. Not really. Hydrogen always remains inefficient.
    1
  156. It will always remain inefficient and therefore expensive due to physics, that’s why. Airliners on hydrogen? Possibly in a far future. But they will more likely run on synthetic fuels first.
    1
  157. What about the batteries in the hydrogen car?
    1
  158.  @roninviking  😄
    1
  159. They do not run on the same levels of efficiency DESPITE the fact that they both are technically electric vehicles as is clearly explained in the video.
    1
  160. Hydrogen cars are, relative to EVs, VERY inefficient. That is the problem.
    1
  161. Hydrogen is not a source of energy.
    1
  162. Because it is dumb. Burning hydrogen is very inefficient.
    1
  163. Hydrogen cars have batteries.
    1
  164.  @TabalugaDragon  They have lithium ion batteries for buffering the electricity. They have electric motors to spin the wheels.
    1
  165. nope
    1
  166. So where does the energy come from?!
    1
  167.  @Jagueyes1  That is impossible. Perpetuum mobiles do not exist. Otherwise electric cars would never have to charge!
    1
  168.  @Jagueyes1  Water is not an energy source. And theoretically you could catch the water vapor from the exhaust to use it again.
    1
  169.  @Jagueyes1  Correct, and before that electrolysis can happen, the alternator is the energy source, and before that the engine is the energy source.. You see where this is going right?!
    1
  170.  @Jagueyes1  It’s a scam because it would break laws of physics. If it were so easy, it would literally solve all energy problems in the world. But unfortunately it does not work that way.
    1
  171. You can do the exact same thing much more efficient and a lot less complex by using batteries.
    1
  172. Has been tried in the past. Very complex and very costly. Hard to compete with fast charging. Fast charging already is so fast that nobody would care about battery swapping.
    1
  173. But not efficient.
    1
  174.  @markknoop6283  The energy required for opening car doors is of course nothing compared to the losses that occur in a ICE drivetrain. Electrolysis, compression, transportation and combustion of hydrogen is an incredibly inefficient way to use electric energy.
    1
  175.  @markknoop6283  I know. That doesn't change anything about the low efficiency. The future is battery electric and - possibly in some rare cases - hydrogen fuel cell. Combustion engines are over.
    1
  176.  @markknoop6283  It takes time for the world to adapt. It will be fine. Parking really is the easiest 'problem' to solve.
    1
  177.  @markknoop6283  I know how it works. It's rare. People in cities normally don't drive to work. But hypothetically speaking, yes even that is possible.
    1
  178. No they did not. Big oil loves hydrogen.
    1
  179. There is by far not enough renewable energy in the world to justify the incredibly low efficiency of hydrogen. Not now, not within the next 20 to 30 years. After that, yes we will probably use some hydrogen to store surplus renewable energy but that still does not mean we have to put it in our cars and run it to our houses. It would be a lot more efficient to convert the hydrogen back to electricity at centralised places when needed. And no, copper is not a problem.
    1
  180. On board HHO generators do not improve mileage or lower emissions. It's a scam.
    1
  181. The oil industry uses loads of cobalt in the refining process of petrol and diesel. And yes you need plastics and lubricants to build EV's, nobody is denying this. But the total requirement for oil related materials over the lifetime of the car is FAR LESS than any petrol or diesel vehicle.
    1
  182. You forgot about the hydrogen tanks and the fuel cell itself that require replacing after 10 years...
    1
  183. What if we use that exact same renewable energy to charge electric vehicles?
    1
  184. They both start with the same electricity...
    1
  185. Except that you will always need three times the amount of that green energy.
    1
  186.  @lucasmachain  But we won’t have enough renewables for many decades to come to justify very inefficient hydrogen cars.
    1
  187. ​ @lucasmachain  Lithium batteries will be recycled so the lithium won't be lost. Hydrogen cars will never become considerably more efficient due to laws of physics. Hydrogen cars also require materials like lithium, cobalt, nickel and platinum. And yes, of course public transport and bicycles are the obvious choice in many situations but that is not really relevant in this comparison. When it comes to electrifying drive trains we need to make the most efficient choice as fast as possible to reduce CO2 emissions as fast as possible. This is why the vast majority of all road vehicles are going to be battery electric.
    1
  188. But even then a hydrogen car consumes 3 times the amount of that electricity, no matter how it was produced.
    1
  189. So you thought that hydrogen vehicles do not require cobalt? 😂
    1
  190.  @f1neekrants  No they don't xD
    1
  191.  @f1neekrants  Nope. Bio fuels require waaay too much land.
    1
  192.  @f1neekrants  You can’t get around physics. It will always remain inefficient. Porsche is not studying bio fuels by the way. They are talking about synthetic fuels. Which are also intrinsically inefficient.
    1
  193. even more inefficient.
    1
  194. Where would the electricity come from?
    1
  195.  @jameshunter4386  Nope, unfortunately that is not the case. Driving on hydrogen is incredibly inefficient and would require the battery to be charged much more often than an EV. And no, the battery cannot be charged from the alternator, that would break the first law of thermodynamics you know. You need energy from the grid or another external source to charge it.
    1
  196.  @jameshunter4386  The car Stanley Meyer presented was a scam. Again, it is impossible due to laws of physics. He died of a cerebral aneurysm.
    1
  197. Lol not at all. Hydrogen is over in Europe as well.
    1
  198.  @callumhardy5098  I know about the Mirai and JCB. Still horribly inefficient. In the meantime EVs are selling like hot cakes in Western Europe and charging locations are growing fast.
    1
  199. Cobalt is used in pretty much any electrical appliance (including hydrogen cars) and in the desulphurisation process of diesel and gasoline.
    1
  200.  @michaelfrehner4858  Cobalt is used in refineries, not in the vehicle itself. And your numbers are far off. An EV is cleaner after less than 50k miles.
    1
  201.  @michaelfrehner4858  The cobalt is in the batteries. I think the numbers you have based your calculations on are outdated or do not include all aspects of fuel production. Here is a nice and realistic report that shows how to make these comparisons: https://www.oliver-krischer.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/English_Studie.pdf You can see that a Tesla Model 3 with 75 kWh battery is compared to a Mercedes C220D. After 30000 km (20k miles) of driving the Tesla is cleaner.
    1
  202. But hydrogen cars use MUCH MOOORREEEE of that same electricity.
    1
  203.  @freestyleskyline  Take a look: https://images.app.goo.gl/GsS9ixHNup3p4pa49
    1
  204. Wrong. Battery production emissions are decreasing every year (we are currently at about 100 kg of CO2 per kWh). Batteries last a very long time, current generation will probably last longer than the vehicles itself. Hydrogen cars have small batteries too and a fuel cell that degrades over time and eventually requires replacement. Same for the whole high pressure system (including the tanks) that last about 8 years.
    1
  205.  @BlakeB415  Current high end EVs can already deliver a similar range. Most people don’t want an EV because they don’t know how charging actually works. 90% of the charging happens at night, or at work, or at the shopping center. These charging moments require 0 minutes of waiting. On long stretches you can easily drive 2-3 hours before stopping at a fast charger where you will very rarely find yourself literally waiting for it to charge because you are doing things that you would normally do too: go to the restroom, eat and drink something, take a rest, etc. Real waiting for your charge is very rare in real life. And all that while using only 1/3rd of the amount of electric energy compared to a hydrogen car.
    1
  206. There is no electricity in the Appalachian valley?
    1
  207.  @deepg2477  BEV is perfect for pretty much any passenger car. Hydrogen is completely unnecessary in this class.
    1
  208.  @deepg2477  It's just a matter of physics. Lithium availability won't be an issue for a very long time and then there will be recycling like Redwood Materials is working on. Hydrogen cars also require lithium, cobalt, nickel and platinum so it is not a solution for material availability problems. Mass adoption of hydrogen cars would slow down the energy transition because it causes a lot more CO2 per kilometer.
    1
  209. It’s called physics.
    1
  210.  @210SAi  The reason hydrogen cars are a stupid idea is directly related to physics and to be more precise: laws of thermodynamics.
    1
  211. Yeah, for ships and possibly aircraft.
    1
  212. Most lithium is mined from brine lakes by evaporation. Lithium mining is not so bad at all.
    1
  213. Self fueling? You mean inside the vehicle?
    1
  214. Lol guess what, electric vehicles and hydrogen cars start with the same electricity........
    1
  215.  @rexli1887  I see. But Electricity -> wheel (Hydrogen EV) is more like 30% at max.
    1
  216.  @rexli1887  Yeah I referred to electricity to wheel efficiency. This is always the same, regardless of the energy source. Fuel cell efficiency is only 60% in a best case scenario.
    1
  217.  @rexli1887  But I understand the main point about the comparison of natural gas combustion in an engine.
    1
  218. Of course it could go down a bit, but it will always remain much more expensive than electricity.
    1
  219. An EV only requires 1/3 of the elctric energy. LPG still causes a lot of CO2 emissions.
    1
  220. You don't need to because guess what is required to PRODUCE that hydrogen? That exact same electricity.
    1
  221. What will happen with millions of tons of wasted batteries, fuel cells and fuel tanks from hydrogen cars?
    1
  222.  @Novosadjanin82  Not really. Batteries of hydrogen cars cycle a lot more so need to be replaced earlier. Byproduct of hydrogen is loads of CO2 because of all the electricity needed to make it.
    1
  223.  @Novosadjanin82  Yet you need three times of that exact same electricity for a hydrogen car. The batteries in hydrogen fuel cell cars are EXACTLY the same, only smaller.
    1
  224. Unlikely. The hydrogen tanks and fuel cell would take up way too much space and also cost a lot to manufacture. Driving on hydrogen is much more expensive and with the rapid development of fast chargers pretty much nobody would ever use the hydrogen option.
    1
  225. Nope
    1
  226. yes sir!
    1
  227. Both hydrogen and Porsches synthetic fuels are stupid ideas because they are horribly inefficient. Nobody claims EVs are zero emission, they are low emission. Battery production emissions are compensated for as soon as you start driving.
    1
  228.  @sombraarthur  You are wrong. It takes less than 20k miles to compensate. Here is a wonderful report explaining why: https://www.avere.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/englisch_Studie-EAuto-versus-Verbrenner_CO2.pdf Also: even if a 50% efficient combustion engine existed, it is still is horribly inefficient compared to electric cars. Combustion engines are over.
    1
  229.  @sombraarthur  Yeah, correct. I meant ‘compensating occurs during driving’. 3 to 4 years is indeed correct and that is totally fine because an average car lasts 12 years. And yes, of course classic cars will be around for a while. That is fine. But regarding new cars combustion engines are pretty much completely over in 10 years for most countries.
    1
  230. "Why use a fuel cell at all, if they are so inefficient?" Because using it in a IC engine is even worse....
    1
  231.  @laura-ann.0726  Oh yes of course are EVs the best solution. Even with most average (rather carbon intense) grid energy mixes driving electric is already far cleaner - not to mention on 100% PV.
    1
  232. 70 to 80% from the source of the electricity (that is what is relevant) is very accurate.
    1
  233. Even lower than this.
    1
  234.  @jouko9312  That is not well to wheel.
    1
  235. Yup they are.
    1
  236. Because the battery only has to be made once - fuel has to be made for every gallon. Electricity is what runs the car. Not the battery.
    1
  237. Elon is right though.
    1
  238. LOL
    1
  239. Yes sir.
    1
  240. CNG*
    1
  241.  @Brian-om2hh  🤦🏻‍♂️
    1
  242. 80% efficient from the electricity generation source...
    1
  243. ​ @HasanAmmori  Most high voltage power lines are AC. So that is not an average situation. Charge loss over time is neglegible and degradation as well.
    1
  244.  @HasanAmmori  It seemed like you were referring to transmission. Anyway, electrolysis also requires DC.
    1
  245. The water powered car was never invented.
    1
  246. AWKWARD SILENCE
    1
  247.  @MementoMori-m  You have clearly no clue. Hydrogen vehicles require 3 times the amount of electric energy.
    1
  248.  @MementoMori-m  Again, you have clearly no clue. Batteries only have to be produced once and then the EV is super efficient its entire life. A hydrogen car is inefficient every single day. Hydrogen cars also require lithium, cobalt, nickel and platinum.
    1
  249. It's not! They both start with the same electricity....
    1
  250. Hydrogen cars have batteries too plus a fuel cell and fuel tanks. All require manufacturing and recycling.
    1
  251. Yes it is theoretically possible, but VERY inefficient energy wise.
    1
  252. Where did you get that information?
    1
  253. Electric cars are always the cleanest option. Yes, even on non renewable energy.
    1
  254. They are much more efficient than hydrogen cars.
    1
  255.  @JHBH70  It’s just simple physics, but here is a nice chart that says it all: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/02/01/chart-why-battery-electric-vehicles-beat-hydrogen-electric-vehicles-without-breaking-a-sweat/amp/
    1
  256.  @JHBH70  That doesn’t change anything about the efficiency. Hydrogen cars will always require MUCH more electricity, no matter the investments. EVs are here to stay.
    1
  257. But you need three times the amount of solar panels buddy.
    1
  258. @I G Yup
    1
  259. Still insanely inefficient and it threatens land use for food stock. Not an option at all.
    1
  260. No, they did it correct. Here is a nice chart: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/02/01/chart-why-battery-electric-vehicles-beat-hydrogen-electric-vehicles-without-breaking-a-sweat/
    1
  261. Because they both start with the same electricity.....
    1
  262. recycling...
    1
  263.  @warwolf0  It’s creating CO2 by making hydrogen.
    1
  264.  @warwolf0  The electric grid will do just fine. It's a myth.
    1
  265.  @warwolf0  Correct. Average charging habits don't add much to the grid load. Most EVs charge at night and only require about 10 kWh per day for an average daily commute. Spread over 12 hours of charging that is less than one 1 kW of charging power.
    1
  266.  @warwolf0  6 AC chargers is something completely different than 6 superchargers. The energy consumed when nog charging is negligible. The grid will cope. Read this: https://energynews.us/2021/03/10/commentary-yes-our-electricity-grid-can-support-an-electric-vehicle-future/
    1
  267. Haha there it is again.. the one and only famous Stanley Mayer scam 😂
    1
  268. Wrong. Battery production emissions are only 100 kg of CO2 per kWh so this is quickly compensated for as soon as you start driving.
    1
  269. Hydrogen in combustion engines is even more inefficient.
    1
  270.  @amerchioles1113  I see. Probably a lot easier and cheaper to convert to bio gas (methane).
    1
  271. Because it doesn't really matter. EVs are always the cleanest option and they get cleaner every year.
    1
  272.  @Luke-id1cp  Will be a combination of natural gas, coal, nuclear, wind and solar power. You should realise that oil and gas refineries consume A LOT of power, so this will decrease over the years.
    1
  273. Because that would require energy for on board electrolysis. Lots of energy.
    1
  274.  @onepiececomrade  Could you tell me where in the video electricity production is mentioned?
    1
  275.  @onepiececomrade  We were talking about electricity production, which is not mentioned in the video - as it should be for a proper comparison to EVs. There are barely any other viable methods for H2 production that make sense and actually reduce carbon emissions.
    1
  276. You realize that due to that very bad efficiency we will also need to build and maintain much more wind turbines, solar panels en power stations?
    1
  277. Wrong. You forgot to mention that hydrogen cars need batteries, fuel cells and fuel tanks. EVs are always the least carbon intense option.
    1
  278.  @Brian-om2hh  Exactly!
    1
  279. There is by far not enough waste to let the world run on methane.
    1
  280.  @anthonybonfiglio9288  Accumulated yes, but daily production won’t be sufficient.
    1
  281. They are betting against physics. Never a great idea.
    1
  282. Lol so where would the energy come from to produce that hydrogen? xD
    1
  283.  @The-qh3vg  If the car would be driving on 100% hydrogen it would stop driving when the battery is empty. Simple physics.
    1
  284. Low losses in transport, and 'refueling'. It actually is 70 to 80% in real life.
    1
  285. Great choice.
    1
  286. Efficiency cannot be improved. It’s just physics.
    1
  287.  @simonramoner  Efficiency is not a problem at all with batteries. It’s over 90%.
    1
  288.  @simonramoner  Yes, we need gigantic battery production plants. There are already several under construction. And that is great. Power generation is not a concern.
    1
  289.  @Brian-om2hh  nice!
    1
  290. Lol another Stanley Meyer scam believer.
    1
  291. Yeah that was a famous myth..
    1
  292. Nope. There is more than enough data to proof that EV batteries will easily last 10+ years. After that they can be used in stationary applications and eventually they will be recycled. Hydrogen is simply too inefficient and complex.
    1
  293. But batteries are by far the best solution we currently have for vehicle energy storage and this will remain so for many decades - until something else comes up.
    1
  294. Hydrogen cars have onboard batteries.
    1
  295.  @mindaugas49ccm  Lithium-ion batteries, not lead acid.
    1
  296. You are clearly behind on wind and solar.
    1
  297. The comparison is about the energy efficiency. Production is a whole other story and in that case you should also include production emissions of the hydrogen fuel cell and fuel tanks.
    1
  298. EV batteries will not need replacing. They outlast the vehicle. Fuel cells degrade over time and eventually need replacing.
    1
  299.  @Veangent  Only a few per cent per year. Current batteries are so big that they are still perfectly usable after 10 years.
    1
  300. Sure, but that doesn't mean that you have to fuel cars with it.
    1
  301. It’s not.
    1
  302. Ryan B Cushman Insanely inefficient.
    1
  303. HHO is super inefficient. Solar on car roof tops is by far not enough to charge a car.
    1
  304.  @waitingforthereturn  😂
    1
  305. Never heard of fast chargers?
    1
  306.  @ivorjohn3016  But much more efficient and in daily life you don't need to stop for charging at all. Charging happens at night.
    1
  307.  @ivorjohn3016  Charging infrastructure will improve all over the world. Just a matter of time. A 7 hour trip is how far? 700 kilometer? A modern EV does 350 km on a full charge and you obviously start off with a full battery. So after 3,5 hours you have to stop for a fast charge of about half an hour. And maybe another one 2 hours later (short stop of say 15 minutes). You will see that the difference between a combustion engine car and a modern EV is very small because you always have to take 1 or 2 breaks anyway. Battery production cost is a whole different story, but the prices of EVs have been falling drastically over the past years and this will continue to do so.
    1
  308.  @ivorjohn3016  It's just a matter of time. Some parts of the world follow later. Hydrogen infrastructure is much harder and more expensive to build because you have to store and transport very high pressure gas in a safe way. But much more important is that hydrogen is waaay too inefficient to be a viable solution. I do not see natural gas as a solution as CO2 emissions are about just as high as any other fossil fuel.
    1
  309.  @ivorjohn3016  I did not ignore it. What is your point? Like I said, they get cheaper every year. Why are you so worried about it? And fuel cell cars are definitely not cheaper at all.
    1
  310.  @ivorjohn3016  I did not say hydrogen will get better. It won't because laws of physics are the limiting factor. Electric has always been efficient.
    1
  311.  @ivorjohn3016  I advise you to inform yourself a bit about the basics of physics. You will soon realise why electric vehicles have always been very efficient and why hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will never get anywhere near that level. Hint: efficiency is not the same as range. Good luck.
    1
  312. There it is again, still going strong in 2021, the Stanley Meyer scam story 😂
    1
  313.  @merlin1346  Well it's just logical because it is impossible due to physics.
    1
  314. Sure, but that does not mean we should put it in cars.
    1
  315. It's is even more inefficient than hydrogen electric.
    1
  316.  @CptBerns  Losses in a combustion engine are insane. The vast majority is lost in heat.
    1
  317. Doesn’t solve the CO2 problem.
    1
  318. Horribly inefficient.
    1
  319. Hydrogen in combustion engines are even more inefficient.
    1
  320. Lithium battery production is currently at about 100 kg of CO2 per kWh. Pretty good.
    1
  321. You are mixing things up. You forgot that building a hydrogen car also requires lithium, cobalt, nickel and platinum mining. And guess what, EVs can be charged with renewable energy produced from only a fraction of that exact same wind, solar, geothermal, tidal and other sources of energy.
    1
  322.  @honestabe4161  Yeah sure, EVs require more materials for the battery. But you need platinum for the fuel cell that also lasts shorter than a battery. Also, the battery in a fuel cell car lasts shorter because it cycles much more than an EV battery. And again, Fuel cell cars require at least three times the amount of electricity and thus cause lots more CO2. And at last: "when a EV is junked the lithium battery packs leak pollution into ground water." That is obviously pure bollocks but you know that.
    1
  323. Not relevant. They both start with electricity.
    1
  324. Tesla solved that a loooong time ago.
    1
  325. Incredible line-ups do not occur very often. Charging locations are easy to scale up. Refuelling at hydrogen stations would also cause congestion because these stations can only serve so many vehicles per hour. Hydrogen will always remain far too inefficient.
    1
  326. So you thought that batteries, fuel tanks and fuel cells in hydrogen cars are not bad for the environment?!
    1
  327.  @MartinRyleOShea  The Toyota Mirai has a similar lithium ion battery. It is indeed smaller, but will need replacing much earlier due to the much higher number of cycles it has to go through.
    1
  328.  @MartinRyleOShea  The problem is that the hunger for energy of a hydrogen car is much more harmful. The electricity emissions per kilometer are three times higher than an EV.
    1
  329.  @MartinRyleOShea  Yeah that is a cool island but it does not solve the efficiency problem. You will need three times as many wind turbines if we all went for hydrogen cars.
    1
  330. Lol as if you do not need materials for hydrogen cars.
    1
  331.  @stevenstidham13  Hydrogen cars have lithium ion batteries for energy buffering.
    1
  332.  @stevenstidham13  Combustion engines on hydrogen are out of the question.
    1
  333.  @stevenstidham13  Of course hydrogen fuel cell vehicles use less lithium (and cobalt and nickel) than EVs, but their batteries last shorter because they cycle a lot more. Plus, and that is the of course most important part, they consume three times the amount of energy which makes them useless when it comes to lowering CO2 emissions as fast as possible.
    1
  334.  @stevenstidham13  Water is not the problem at all. There is absolutely no need to collect it. You don’t need a combustion engine to do that by the way, fuel cells also emit water.
    1
  335.  @stevenstidham13  Large scale centralized storage of energy in the form of hydrogen could indeed be an option in the future. Using it in vehicles is just stupid because it is horribly inefficient.
    1
  336. They are not extremely toxic and their lifespan is not extremely limited. Proper EV batteries easily last 10+ years. Not comparable to phone batteries at all.
    1
  337. That is a common misconception. EVs were efficient from day 1. Hydrogen cars will ALWAYS remain inefficient due to simple laws of physics.
    1
  338.  @matthieurenvoise5578  Not really. Current high end EVs can drive just as far as hydrogen cars and are not much heavier.
    1
  339.  @matthieurenvoise5578  550 km is close enough to me and the Tesla Model S does 600+ km too. And even more important: these cars drive the same distance while consuming only a fraction of the electric energy. Also: hydrogen cars will probably not get significant bigger driving ranges as this would require even larger hydrogen tanks or even higher pressure inside the tanks which lowers the efficiency even further...
    1
  340.  @matthieurenvoise5578  The tanks are much bigger than that, you are confusing liters with kilograms. Bigger tanks would simply not fit in the cars. And no, the weight of the batteries does not really impact the energy consumption. Weight is only a small factor. Decent EVs are absolutely perfect for long distance driving, no need for fuel cell cars and definitely not in the future. It's simply game over for hydrogen. It might remain a niche for heavy trucking and shipping. Not for passenger cars.
    1
  341.  @matthieurenvoise5578  The tanks are big. The Toyota Mirai has a total tank capacity of 142 liters.
    1
  342.  @Bryan46162  yup!
    1
  343. Only be weight, not by volume.
    1
  344. The comparison is correct. They BOTH start with the same electricity so the power production emissions are not relevant.
    1
  345. That's a common misconception. Hydrogen cars are intrinsically inefficient. It is not a matter of scale.
    1
  346. Dude, hydrogen starts with the exact same electricity. That's the whole point....
    1
  347. It's not a hype lol
    1
  348. They. Both. Start. With. Electricity.....
    1
  349. Easily compensated for as soon as you start driving.
    1
  350. Big oil loves hydrogen...
    1
  351.  @mattbishop731  Hydrogen is the only way for them to keep doing what they love: producing, transporting and selling gaseous products. Shell, BP, Repsol are already involved: https://www.wsj.com/articles/major-energy-companies-bet-big-on-hydrogen-11603392160
    1
  352. Super inefficient.
    1
  353. So Bill, where would the energy come from to power that ‘hydrogen producing cell’?!
    1
  354. He is perfectly right.
    1
  355.  @GodlikeVallenrod  Why not?
    1
  356.  @GodlikeVallenrod  You missed the point that both types of vehicles start with electricity. Sure, EV charging is sometimes more efficient (overnight AC charging) than other times (high speed DC charging), but overall an EV has much better efficiency than hydrogen. Comparing storage methods to petrol, diesel, LNG and CNG is useless because they all cause vast amounts of CO2 per kilometer - which is exactly what we are trying to avoid. Yes, hydrogen can theoretically enable low carbon road traffic, but battery electric will always remain much more efficient.
    1
  357. Nope. Just simple physics.
    1
  358. To a certain degree. Just like any mass produced product. EVs are still far better because of efficiency.
    1
  359.  Pugna  No there are not. Life cycle emissions are lower.
    1
  360. So what, still much better than any other alternative
    1
  361. Charging does not take hours. Hydrogen will always remain far less efficient.
    1
  362.  @johnshyer6287  Fast charging is perfectly usable despite the difference in plugs. Have you ever tried it? By the way, here in Europe it's all going to be CCS anyway.
    1
  363.  @johnshyer6287  Efficiency is highly important because renewable energy will remain scarce for many decades to come.
    1
  364.  @johnshyer6287  There is many companies focusing on battery recycling, look up American Manganese and Redwood Materials. Before recycling, EV batteries will be reused in stationary energy storage.
    1
  365.  Pugna  That's the whole point. People do not fast charge on a daily basis.
    1
  366. You need energy for that.
    1
  367. Yeah sure and hydrogen fuel cells will come falling from the skies 😄
    1
  368. There is plenty of lithium.
    1
  369. 😂😂
    1
  370.  @stevenstidham13  Exactly all the examples you mentioned are perfectly in line with laws of physics (and always have been), they were just a matter of technological or scientific progression. The good old myth about the car than runs on water is definitely not.
    1
  371. Batteries, fuel tanks and fuel cells in hydrogen cars wear out as well and need to be disposed of as well. EV batteries do not end up in land fills.
    1
  372.  @mojrimibnharb4584  The battery is smaller, but lasts much shorter.
    1
  373.  @mojrimibnharb4584  There are currently barely any EV batteries being recycled because there are barely any available. Mass market EVs have been on the market since 2012 and the batteries easily last 10 years. There are many companies preparing for large scale battery recycling (Red Wood Materials, American Manganese). Again, hydrogen cars require (small) lithium ion batteries as well. And you clearly never looked into the maintenance schedule of a Toyota Mirai. Maintenance is very frequent compared to an EV.
    1
  374.  @mojrimibnharb4584  The emissions per kilometer of a HFC vehicle are always 3 times as high so we simply cannot afford that in a time in which CO2 emission reduction is top priority. And again, battery production and recycling are not environmental disasters and HFC vehicles require lithium, cobalt, nickel and platinum - although in different amounts.
    1
  375.  @mojrimibnharb4584  Production emissions of hydrogen.......
    1
  376.  @mojrimibnharb4584  The production method is not relevant. Hydrogen fuel cell cars will always require 3 times as much electricity. There is by far not enough renewable energy, so there are emissions involved.
    1
  377.  @mojrimibnharb4584  Renewable energy is scarce. Very scarce. And this will remain so during the next few decades. We need renewable energy for pretty much anything, not just cars. Wasting massive amounts on H2 vehicles is just plain dumb.
    1
  378.  @mojrimibnharb4584  Why would I not know what H2 is while I have only been complaining about its efficiency?! Of course I know how it works, the production losses of it is the whole point of this discussion. I didn’t say renewables are not build fast enough. They are, but nevertheless it will take decades before we reach 100%. The problem is, if we choose for hydrogen cars this whole process is delayed because we literally need THREE TIMES the amount of solar and wind power.
    1
  379.  @mojrimibnharb4584  1. The ratio is 3:1 look at this: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/02/01/chart-why-battery-electric-vehicles-beat-hydrogen-electric-vehicles-without-breaking-a-sweat/amp/ 2. I was talking about renewables required for transport. 3. Correct. That is why hydrogen is a bad choice, it slows the transition down. 4. Again, the way of low carbon electricity generation is irrelevant. You still need 3 times the amount of it for hydrogen. So in that case 3 X as many nuclear power stations. By the way, power stations take decades to plan, develop and construct. I am not against nuclear in general. Just stating that it does not solve the efficiency problem of hydrogen.
    1
  380.  @mojrimibnharb4584  Sure, but hydrogen cars do not solve the material problem either. They require, among others, lithium, nickel and cobalt for the battery and platinum for the fuel cell.
    1
  381.  @mojrimibnharb4584  Correct, the amounts are smaller but both components (battery and fuel cell) last shorter than an EV battery. The small battery in hydrogen cars cycles much more and therefore wears out faster. I don’t think fuel cell cars can do without buffering battery.
    1
  382. ​ @kingbeam80ify  That is an incorrect assumption. Just because hydrogen could be made from surplus renewables does not mean it actually happens and the other way around you could argue that EVs can be charged with renewables as well (requiring only 1/3 of the energy). Smart charging systems that regulate the charging power according to the availability of renewable energy already exist. Also: when there will be enough EVs in the future there will be barely any surplus renewable energy left because these is always an average number of EVs charging at any given moment of the day.
    1
  383. Exactly. Weirdly enough, almost nobody understands this 🤦🏻‍♂️
    1
  384. Of course.
    1
  385. Included.
    1
  386. Very nice
    1
  387. Lol that is a famous myth
    1
  388. Still the best option though.
    1
  389. Flopped because there are MANY times more EVs on the road.
    1
  390.  @OM-bs7of  EVs are taking over ICE cars. Hydrogen cars are doing nothing. Thankfully.
    1
  391.  @OM-bs7of  Look at the car sales figures of European countries. 5% of all new cars sold are fully electric in my country.
    1
  392.  @OM-bs7of  I don’t think 5 min is a target. Current state of battery tech is already very good. Near time improvements (Tesla 4680) make it a complete no-brainer. Fuel cell vehicles will never be able to get anywhere near the efficiency of an BEV. Most EU countries will ban sales of new ICE vehicles within 9 years. Year over year figures for EVs doubled in many countries in the past few years. There is simply no way back and hydrogen will not play a significant role in it and that is a good thing.
    1
  393.  @OM-bs7of  Hydrogen cars are not significantly lighter than EVs because they carry hydrogen tanks and batteries. Of course planes are a different story. Hydrogen may play a role in there. I was talking about road vehicles. Here will battery electric become dominant. And no, it’s not just a matter of creating the infrastructure for hydrogen. Again, hydrogen vehicles are far too inefficient. We cannot justify such enormous energy consumption while we actually have to get emissions down. That is hydrogen’s biggest issue. Not the infrastructure.
    1
  394.  @OM-bs7of  The Model S Long Range Plus is also capable of 402 miles. Weight does not affect energy consumption considerably and definitely not when compared to the inefficiency of a fuel cell vehicle. The Model S consumes 306 Wh per mile while a Mirai consumes 450 Wh per mile, and that does of course not include the energy required before the fuel gets into the car.
    1
  395. lol they are not
    1
  396. Probably not. The Prius is a great car that saves on fuel and is relatively efficient. The Mirai uses very costly fuel and is very inefficient.
    1
  397.  @hi9580  You need much more solar panels for this than for charging electric cars. 3-4 times as many.
    1
  398. You forgot about efficiency
    1
  399.  @cosmicbuddhi8029  That is a common misconception. The efficiency of hydrogen fuel cell cars is limited by simple laws of physics. It will never become considerably more efficient.
    1
  400.  @cosmicbuddhi8029  That all doesn’t proof anything about the efficiency. This simple chart says it all: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/02/01/chart-why-battery-electric-vehicles-beat-hydrogen-electric-vehicles-without-breaking-a-sweat/
    1
  401.  @cosmicbuddhi8029  Hydrogen will always be inefficient due to laws of physics. That is the whole point. The stories about Lazar and Meyer and their so called confidential patents are a myth, just like Meyer’s ‘suspicious’ death.
    1
  402.  @cosmicbuddhi8029  It cannot work because of physics. Just because the DoD prevented some sort of contraption to become public a long time ago does not mean it actually worked.
    1
  403.  @cosmicbuddhi8029  Flat earth theorists are usually not the ones that actually have some basic sense of physics...
    1
  404.  @cosmicbuddhi8029  Of course it works... But the contraptions of Lazar and Meyer do not improve efficiency to any sort of magical level like you stated. Hydrogen cars are dreadfully inefficient and this remains so because of physics.
    1
  405. Still horribly inefficient
    1
  406. It’s the other way around. Big oil loves hydrogen.
    1
  407. Only in Murica
    1
  408. Lol and the energy for electrolysis comes from...?
    1
  409. Too inefficient.
    1
  410. Hydrogen cars are heavy, just like EVs.
    1
  411.  @matskjellstrand7730  Yeah depending on the model it may differ a few hundred kilo. Despite that, EVs still consume only a third of the energy per kilometer.
    1
  412.  @matskjellstrand7730  Major losses in hydrogen compression and conversion in the fuel cell.
    1
  413.  @matskjellstrand7730  And then there is losses in production, compression and transport. These steps cannot be eliminated. Total efficiency remains about 20 to 30%.
    1
  414.  @matskjellstrand7730  There are much more efficient ways to harness excess power (charging electric cars, heat storage). Hydrogen will never be anywhere near 100% efficient, even if you use waste heat.
    1
  415.  @matskjellstrand7730  The point is that it will never get anywhere near 80 to 90%. There is always an average number of EVs charging at any given time of the day. Perfect for peak shaving.
    1
  416. Compressed air powered cars are very inefficient and therefore require a lot of electricity. Not an option.
    1
  417.  @jameshall5171  But that is only a tiiiiny part of the energy loss.
    1
  418. Dude, read the other comments. Literally thousands complain about the same thing. But it's not relevant because, guess what, hydrogen cars ALSO require lithium batteries, carbon fiber hydrogen tanks, and fuel cells with platinum in them. They ALSO require manufacturing, they ALSO wear out and need to be replaced and they ALSO need to be recycled.
    1
  419. These ‘technologies’ do simply not work. They are not blocked or buried in any way.
    1
  420.  @stevenstidham13  Get your head around some basic physics.
    1
  421.  @SirDavothe2  Pretty much all surplus from wind and solar will in the near future be consumed by charging cars and stationary batteries. Much more efficient, much easier 👍🏻
    1
  422. So explain where the energy comes from for the on-board hydrogen production...
    1
  423.  @TheDirtyBirchTrails  Yes. No source of energy to be found.
    1
  424. Yes, EVs are the best option by far.
    1
  425. Not really.
    1
  426.  @bertjesklotepino  The cooling towers are part of the power generating process and actually contribute to the actual overall efficiency of the power plant. Look up Rankine cycle. The amount of heat escaping from the cooling tower is actually too low to use for anything substantial.
    1
  427.  @bertjesklotepino  Alright, will have a look
    1
  428. Well Sam, he didn't include emissions for fuel cells and fuel tank either right?
    1
  429.  @samd1405  Lithium mining is mainly done by evaporation of brine water. Of course there will be emissions related to this, but this is not something to be very concerned about. Battery production emissions are currently in total at about 100 kg of CO2 per kWh according to the latest research. Not bad at all.
    1
  430. ​ @samd1405  Brine is not the same as sea water. The vast amount of lithium comes from brine lakes. A smaller part is mined from hard rock.
    1
  431.  @samd1405  About 2/3 for brines. I have read a lot about EV battery production. Here is a nice report: https://www.ivl.se/download/18.34244ba71728fcb3f3faf9/1591706083170/C444.pdf
    1
  432. Sure but it is horribly ineffcient.
    1
  433.  @zad08  Not really. It is just physics.
    1
  434. Using hydrogen in ICE is out of the question.
    1
  435. Never 😂
    1
  436. Losses are MUCH lower than what occurs in the hydrogen ecosystem. The video describes efficiencies during use, not production. They didn’t mention production emissions for batteries, fuel cells and hydrogen tanks that are required for hydrogen cars either.
    1
  437.  @Phill0old  Provide a source for that 5%. Even if that were true, future recycling percentages will be much higher. EV batteries outlast the vehicle itself. You only need one. The average car lasts 12 years and it is the average numbers that count. About 10% losses in distribution is quite accurate indeed.
    1
  438.  @Phill0old  Correct. The batteries will be reused in stationary applications for years before they get recycled. First gen Nissan Leafs were quite bad due to lack of active battery cooling. This is a non-existing problem in today's EVs.
    1
  439.  @Phill0old  I asked you for a source first. Like I said, even if it were true it doesn't say anything about the near future. Many companies are currently ramping up recycling capacity. There is currently not much to recycle anyway in the first place because the batteries last much longer than you think.
    1
  440.  @Phill0old  I was just asking for your source. Again, I am claiming that EV battery recycling is barely necessary currently. EVs have only been around in serious numbers for less than 10 years. That's shorter than most of the batteries last.
    1
  441.  @engineeringtheweirdguy2103  That is exactly not the case. The hydrogen car consumes literally three (3) times more energy per kilometer due to the losses in production of hydrogen (AFTER the electric energy was generated), compression, transport and conversion in the fuel cell in the car.
    1
  442.  @engineeringtheweirdguy2103  You are right, I know that but I misunderstood your first comment. Sorry!
    1
  443. But it still is horribly inefficient.
    1
  444. Lol
    1
  445. And will always remain the future.
    1
  446. Lol so what. EV's are still a lot better.
    1
  447. Hydrogen will always remain the future.
    1
  448.  @emitting  The point is that this will only be 1/3rd of the amount you need for the hydrogen car.
    1
  449.  @emitting  Nope. It does not depend on that. An EV ALWAYS consumes only a third of that exact same energy. No matter how it was generated.
    1
  450. Batteries will outlive the rest of the vehicle, as opposed to hydrogen fuel cells and tanks.
    1
  451.  @Brian-om2hh  I have absolutely no clue..
    1
  452.  @Brian-om2hh  Yeah, exactly this, or are there really such vast numbers of the people still so unbelievably misinformed?
    1
  453. Electric is always cleaner, even if it is mainly produced by fossil fuels.
    1
  454.  @BennyUKBoy  Nope, it is cleaner overall.
    1
  455.  @BennyUKBoy  Centralized electricity production is always cleaner and more efficient than any combustion engine. This results in lower CO2 emissions.
    1
  456.  @BennyUKBoy  Wrong. Battery emissions are quickly compensated for when you start driving.
    1
  457.  @BennyUKBoy  inform yourself. There is plenty of research available on the matter.
    1
  458. You are reffering to Stanley Meyer. 1. He had nothing to do with hydrogen fuel cell cars. 2. He wasn't murdered.
    1
  459. Why would you? Superchargers are very fast and MUCH cheaper.
    1
  460. Battery production is not worse than driving a petrol car. Hydrogen will always remain expensive.
    1
  461. Haha 😂
    1
  462. Yeah exactly. Hydrogen cars will always remain the future.
    1
  463. No it does not exist. It's bullshit.
    1
  464. Lol nope. Electrolysis always requires at least the same amount of energy as the hydrogen is able to produce when combusted.
    1
  465. That argument does not apply to EVs lol.
    1
  466.  @nowhere-central2566  EVs are always cleaner than diesel or gasoline, even on non renewable energy.
    1
  467. He is.
    1
  468. Exactly
    1
  469. Hydrogen in a combustion engine is even less efficient than a fuel cell...
    1
  470.  @devinbender8428  True haha
    1
  471. Exactly sir. Also one should not forget that for every gallon of gasoline or diesel cobalt was used in the refining process. The oil industry is the biggest user of cobalt in the world.
    1
  472. All different kinds. Why?
    1
  473. You have clearly no clue. Electricity transfer is fairly efficient (about 5% to 10% losses). Hydrogen in Japan is imported from Australia where it is produced from coal. And even if the hydrogen would have been created from wind mills, the losses would still be enormous.
    1
  474.  @lyamia13  Of course we could use hydrogen to store energy, but that does not mean we should put it in cars. You could simply convert it back to electricity at the place it was made. That would be more efficient. EVs might use electricity from coal sometimes, but hydrogen cars would ALWAYS require three times more of that exact same energy, so it is a useless argument. And guess what, hydrogen cars also have batteries and a fuel cell that require recycling.
    1
  475.  @lillypichu4566  exactly
    1
  476. ​ @lyamia13  Could you please provide a source for these lithium availability numbers? By the way, the fact that we will eventually run out of oil is not the biggest priority for sustainable transport. GHG emissions is the number 1 reason. And in this category EVs clearly win.
    1
  477. Production of hydrogen from that water is the problem, not the water itself. And just because you can run a little engine on hydrogen proves nothing.
    1
  478.  @EdwardHood  This video is about hydrogen fuel cell cars. Not combustion engines. We know they technically work, but that doesn’t solve anything about all the downsides of hydrogen vehicles.
    1
  479.  @EdwardHood  Lol you forgot about the incredibly low efficiency to begin with. Big oil loves hydrogen by the way.
    1
  480. So why do you think natural gas is great?
    1
  481.  @helenodetroyo7035  So could you show me what a natural gas fuel cell chemical equation looks like?
    1
  482. Hydrogen fuel cell cars also require lithium and cobalt. The problem is that they will always consume many times more of that exact same electricity (from whatever source). Improvements are possible of course, but the efficiency will always remain very low compared to an BEV.
    1
  483. Not really.
    1
  484. Because they require insane amounts of energy.
    1
  485. Please elaborate on hydrogen powerplants.
    1
  486.  @alanwatts8239  So where does the energy come from to make that hydrogen in the first place?
    1
  487. ​ @alanwatts8239  Do you have a source for that? Improving hydrogen production efficiency is probably possible, but net energy gain sounds very suspicious.
    1
  488. Hydrogen has a pretty high energy densitty by weight, but a very low density by volume. And that is exactly the problem and what partly causes the low efficiency (lots of energy required for compression). Hydrogen cars require lithium, cobalt, nickel and platinum. Exact same issues.
    1
  489. Guess what, hydrogen fuel cell cars also require rare earth materials.
    1
  490. silence
    1