Comments by "Clint Holmes" (@clintholmes2061) on "Democrats Already Voter Shaming For 2020" video.

If he does that and Trump wins then he is effectively blamed for Trump. It is better that Hillary be blamed for her loss (despite all her efforts to place the blame elsewhere).
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Why stop at 30 million since you are just making shit up? May as well claim more. Make it a cool billion why don't you.
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Everybody knows they are not free as in they don't cost money. But they are free in that they are being paid for by the person getting the benefit at the time. The people who want to attack someone on that grounds isn't to be taken seriously regardless. They are not going to be appeased by re-branding. They will still call you a communist and other stupid shit.
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I will never understand people that care more about a party label than anything else.
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You remind of people looking for witches back in the day. If they lived they are guilty. If they die they were innocent.
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I guess everyone should just sell out then. There is no point in fighting for change since we have already lost and have no hope for change.
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So you have surrendered. I haven't. I'm going to keep fighting.
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I will never understand anyone who cares more about a party label than anything else.
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Hello regarding, "You don't see a difference between the major parties and third parties?" Yes. Of course I do. I think you are misunderstanding my point if you think I was suggesting otherwise. Regarding, "It's where the money comes from." Bernie Sanders isn't all of a sudden going to be raising his money in totally different place depending on where he would run. Regarding, "the Democratic Party refused to fix itself" The party is a dumpster fire. They are not going to all of a sudden change unless they are forced to change. Sanders could force them to change but only if he wins as a democrat. I think you would be wise to help him. Regarding, "They seem to be actively working against change." Yup. I'm not claiming otherwise. Regarding, "I'm not giving any support to that party," I guess we think of things very differently. When I vote I don't consider myself to be supporting the party of the candidate I'm voting for.... I'm supporting that person. I care about supporting good people and honestly don't care what party label is on them because the person is forever more important than a party label. That is my point. I love Bernie Sanders. I support him. I don't care if he wants to call himself a dem, green, independent, republican, martian, or other. That isn't what is important to me and don't think that should be important to anyone.
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Hello regarding, "the Democratic Party is corrupted." The "democratic" party is sucks. I referred to them as a dumpster fire. You don't need to tell me the ways the party sucks. I know they do. Again, that isn't the point. Regarding, "You say that it hasn't affected Bernie's integrity" I didn't say that but now that you mention, yes, I do believe that to be true. Regarding, "the way he pushes the Russiagate narrative" I think this BS is being completely overblown. I don't think this is, at an important issue and at all an important issue to him. He doesn't call for war with Russia. He has merely said that the activities surrounding their actions be investigated. I consider that to be very reasonable. I do think they fucked with us. I think it is only logical to think they did. They are being accused of the exact same shit David Brock and correct the record did so I don't think it is that unreasonable to think they did. I also think the US fucks with everyone else so I'm not going to act like them fucking with us would be a great surprise. And just because I think they did and I think it should be investigated I hope that doesn't mean people think I want war with Russia. I don't. Not in the least. But again I think you are missing my point. My points is that if you think Bernie has been corrupted and if you think Bernie talks about Russia too much then DON'T FUCKING SUPPORT HIM. Period. Don't support him if he runs as a Green or Independent. Stop acting like the label is more important than the person. Regarding, "The Democratic Party..." Again, more shit about why the party is a dumpster fire. It seems clear to me that you are missing my point. Yes the party sucks. We don't disagree on this. Regarding, "The only way that they are going to be forced to change..." and "he will not be allowed to win the 2020 primaries." So it seems pretty clear that you think and want them to change. I am pretty sure that your do nothing til they shape up approach is not good personally. And even if I thought it was good strategy (and I don't) I personally am not willing to wait. This country needs change right fucking now. Sanders will be allowed run in the 2020 primaries. I'm not going to pretend the game isn't going to be rigged. It is. Which is all the more reason to try and help in my opinion. I also think voting in the primary is one way that you can force the party to change. If you want them to be progressive then vote in it for the most progressive candidate you can find. And if they succeed in forcing a corporate shill into the general you don't owe them jack shit and are right to vote for anyone else. Regarding, "Bernie is allowed to win the primaries, I might be willing to support him at that point" It would really be nice if you would support him before that because he isn't likely to get to that point without some help. If you want progressive democrats then fight for it. Don't just bemoan how much they suck. And I'm not saying you should be doing so blindly. Do it if you believe in him. If you don't then don't. But don't act like the party label attached to him is more important than the man himself. It isn't.
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The electoral college is a fucking joke. I don't care what state you live in.... your vote should count exactly as much as anyone else. And the EC only makes it so that candidates care about swing states which is no better than the BS I'm sure you want to say about them only caring about large states.
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It doesn't get more fair running as a 3rd party. It is very difficult to win a majority of electoral college votes in a 3 way race. It would sacrifice any ability to reform the party from the inside. Even if he won it would ensure both parties worked against his agenda. These are all valid reasons.
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If anyone is controlled opposition it is you.
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You love projecting don't you.
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So you care more about a label than the person. Way to go. You share that trait with staunch democrats.
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Well the chances of the "democratic" nominee being progressive increase if you vote in the primary for the most progressive candidate you can find. The party is not going to magically change on their own after all. And if you are not happy with their nominee then by all means vote for someone else in the general. You owe them nothing. But to say, "I’ve personally already decided that I won’t be voting for any democrat any more," demonstrates that it doesn't even matter how progressive the person is. I hope that this was just hyperbole. Support progressives... even progressives that run as democrats. They can be hard to find but I assure you they do exist.
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Regarding, "That already happened in 2016." You have to be more specific here. I am not sure what you are referring to. Regarding, "I’ll vote for a progressive but I won’t hold my breath on the democrats." It is not about "holding your breathe." It is about keeping an open mind. Your original statement demonstrates a closed mind... even if there is a progressive democrat to support. Regarding, "So yes the democrats already lost my vote" Again... this demonstrates a closed mind. I'm not saying you should be voting for a democrat. I'm saying you should not be closing your mind to the possibility. There are progressives who are choosing to stay in the party to try and change them and make them better even if they are hard to find. I think you should at least be keeping an open mind and be willing to support them when you can. That is very different than saying you need to be supporting any or every dem that comes along. You absolutely shouldn't be supporting corporate dems. But you need to be making a distinction between the two and lot lumping them all in together. Broad based generalization is lazy thinking. Regarding, "need to work much harder than they’re currently doing to get my vote." The party in general doesn't deserve your vote but that doesn't mean you can't do things to make them better and make them more deserving of your vote. They are not going to magically change all on their own. Like I said you should be voting in the "democratic" primary for the most progressive candidate you can find. That demonstrates a clear message to the party that 1) you are going to be voting and are not just apathetic and 2) you want progressive policies and 3) you are going to fight for progressive policies. That is NOT a vote to put someone in office. That is a vote to try and shape the party and make them better because just bitching about how much they suck doesn't have the effect you want. Then in the general election you go right ahead and vote your conscience. Just because you voted in their primary does not mean you, in any way shape or form owe them anything in the general election. And if you want to vote for a 3rd party candidate you go right ahead. I happily voted for Jill Stein in the general in 2016. Unfortunately I didn't vote in the primary because, at that moment I was moving across the country... not because I didn't want to. Peace.
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Yes I am long winded. Regarding, "You can call me close minded if you want, i don’t agree." Your original statement is, "I’ve personally already decided that I won’t be voting for any democrat any more." You really do not understand why that is close minded? Seriously? I have never in my life voted for a republican. I have also never said, "I've personally already decided that I won't be voting for a republican" because the difference is having a closed mind versus having an open mind. Regarding, "I’m referring to the 2016 election that was rigged against the progressive candidate..." Ok. Yup. It was rigged. It was wrong. It was fucked up. How they purged voters in the primary. How they stacked the deck. It was all really fucked up. You know why they do it? Because they KNOW how important the primary is. They don't let independents vote because they don't want them to vote. So what do you want to do? Do you really want to do what the powers that be want you to do and not vote? Or are you going to tell them to fuck off and do what they don't want you to do? The establishment doesn't want you to vote in their primary. Consider that before you willingly give them what they want.
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Ryan regarding, "I don’t disagree on voting for progressives" And there are progressives who are still fighting for the soul of the democratic party even if they are few and far between. They deserve your support in my opinion. Your original statement suggests they are not going to get it. Regarding, "I disagree the Democratic Party is progressive" I have never claimed the party is progressive. In general they absolutely are not. The party is a dumpster fire. You don't need to tell me the ways they suck. I'd agree. This isn't about what the party as a whole is. It is about how to make the party better and why you shouldn't be writing off candidates before you even know what their names or policy positions. Regarding, "I have already made up my mind based on the facts" You can make all the claims you want about caring about facts but you don't even have a name. That is a pretty important fact that you should be considering but demonstrate it is not at all important to you. Regarding, "tell the Democratic Party to open its mind towards progressives" I do. By voting for progressives in the primaries and I could use some help. Stomping your feet doesn't have the same effect as supporting progressives... even progressives who have the audacity to try and work to make the party better than they are.
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Ryan regarding, "To the people fighting for the soul of the party, good luck." Yup. Seems they are fucked. They get to fight an uphill battle against a rigged system and they can't even get the support of people who consider themselves progressive. It seems to me that you care more about punishing a party that you are pissed at. Don't get me wrong you are correct to pissed. I know I am. But you are just stomping your feet. You are not fighting for change. You are just hoping it happens without you and then should it happen you will come along for the ride. If they day comes I hope you fuck off. You don't deserve change if you aren't willing to fight for it.
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We agree the party, in general, fucking sucks. We agree the game is rigged against progressives. The problem I have with your original statement is that it implies defeat without fight. The fight for the soul of the party is not over even if we are currently losing. No they do not deserve your vote. Nobody deserves your vote. But I'm sick and tired of people who care about party labels more than people. Your notion that you are not going to support any democrat is just as messed up as people that think you need to be supporting any and every dem. Everyone needs to be in the middle. People need to be judging candidates based on the person and not the party they are affiliated with. If you think me expressing a heart felt opinion is "shaming you" then so be it. I want your help. If I'm not going to get then I hope you feel shame about it. I think you should. But if you want to chip in and help it would be greatly appreciated going forward. Shit isn't going to change all by itself. We need to make it happen.
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Your original statement is not reflecting on the past.... it is projecting into the future.
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If you want to talk about the past then talk about the past. Seems we don't disagree on the past. But that wasn't about the past even if it is influenced by the past. You are making determinations in the future that indicate a closed mind and white flag of surrender. It seems pretty clear to me that you are going to let corporate dems win without a fight. I see no other way to interpret that statement. You leave no room for supporting progressive democrats in that statement. But whatever. I've said my piece and made my objections. Do what you will with it. Take care.
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Regarding, "I don’t see any chance of a progressive even being an option" There is a reason they had to rig the primary in 2016. There is going to be a reason they will be rigging the primary in 2020. It is because there is going to be a progressive option. You know why they purged progressives in the party? It is because there were progressives to purge. Corporate dems could be purged in exactly the same way but it isn't going happen by magic. They are not going to change on their own. People like you need to force them to change. Just waiting for it to happen isn't going to happen.
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Regarding, "The answer isn’t voting, because that has failed." The game has changed. More of the country than every is woke to the rot in the "democratic" party thanks to Sanders, wikileaks and others. Is it fair? Nope. And it isn't going to be until winning. And we can beat a rigged game but we need to stand together. Regarding, "The real answer is voting for a third party." I'd like to believe this but I don't. Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton were not just 2 of the most despised politicians in the country, they were 2 of the most despised humans in the country. Still Jill Stein only got about 1 percent. So forgive me but I wholeheartedly disagree. Don't get me wrong I encourage you to build 3rd parties and support good 3rd party candidates but the best way to get the change we deserve is by taking over the "democratic" party hostile takeover style. One of the reasons why the party is going to suck until at least 2020 is because Hillary "won" the nomination. That is why there is Tom Perez who got to pick the people under him who picked the people under him. Things can change but to do it we need to win. And it isn't going to be easy. The game is rigged. The establishment has lots of dirty tricks but I think 2020 gives us the best opportunity at a getting a progressive since... since a long time. Regarding, "Parties have come and gone" Not really. And the major parties have rigged the entire system. Do you think it is fair for 3rd parties? I assure you it isn't. You are just trading in one rigged game for a different rigged game. Regarding, "it’s time for a new party that actual represent the people" I agree that we need a party that represents the people. I agree that neither major party does. But some, like myself, think the best way to get a party that actually represents the people is by taking over the "democratic" party and we could use your help. Your original statement is not only not helping but hurting that cause. You make no effort to differentiate between corporate dems and progressive dems. Regarding, "Maybe don’t judge me" Look man... I judge everyone. Not just you. And so do you. Try not to pretend otherwise. Regarding, "open your mind to agreeing a third party is necessary." There already are lots and lots of 3rd parties. They already exist. I wish the game were fair for them. I want ranked choice ballots. I want open debates. I encourage you to build these parties and work to make the game more fair. But this isn't exactly about that. Regarding, "agree to give a third party more thought" I happily voted for Jill Stein in 2016 and would do so again today if the same election were today... in a SWING STATE. So it isn't like I don't give them thought. It's just that winning is important. It isn't everything but it is really really important. That is how we actually get what we want... by winning. The easiest (not to be mistaken with easy) way for progressives to win (ESPECIALLY at the national level) is by running as a dem because, like it or not, the game is rigged in favor of major parties. I absolutely will support 3rd party candidates but I think they are rightfully plan B. Plan A is hostile takeover. But we need help. Vote in the primary. Fight to make the "democratic" party better. Fight for a progressive nominee. And if they succeed in getting a corporate shill like Biden, Harris, or Booker then I will be right beside you voting for a 3rd party candidate. But please don't, like your original post suggests, not even try to get a progressive nominee of the dem party.
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Regarding, "more literal than it’s intention." I don't know how else to take it. Not only do you say it but you repeat it... You say, "I personally won’t be voting for any democrats in the future," and "I agree with a hostile take over." I concede you saying both these things in the same paragraph makes no sense to me. To me if you "agree with a hostile takeover" then you would logically say things like, " I personally will only be voting for progressive democrats in the future and corporate dems can fuck off." But I guess that is just me. Regarding, "I just think that party is far past the point of hostile take over." The key to a successful hostile takeover is getting a progressive nominee. The nominee determines the chair. The chair picks the people under them. Corporate dems can be purged the same way progressives were purged. The nominee is given CRAZY power to set rules and determine the direction of the party almost unilaterally. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91226631 Is the type of thing the nominee can do on their own. To be fair this reform was repealed to benefit Hillary Clinton when she was running. But the point is that this shit can be done and more but to do so we need to win. Political parties care first and foremost about the people that fund their elections. Make the democratic party raise money from the people and then all of a sudden they are incentivized to care about the people and not their big money donors and corporate overloads like now. Regarding, "Maybe some individual people in the party are worth the vote," I think Justice Democrats in particular have a pretty good idea. My trust in a politician is directly correlated to how they raise their money and JDs do it right. That said, I preach the importance of individuals. Good democrats, even if they are not as many as we would like, deserve your support. Your original statement says they won't get it. Regarding, "expect my opinion of not giving my vote to corrupt people." You are right to not vote for corrupt people. You are wrong to assume 100 percent of dems are corrupt. You need to look beyond a party label and look closer at individuals. Or don't. But realize that is essentially the same as people who blindly support democrats without bothering to examine the individual more closely.
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Regarding, "president which has already been proven to be something that is actively blocked by the majority of the party." I say over and over that it is rigged because it is. It isn't fair. But there is reason to think 2020 will be different. Sanders barely "lost" in 2016 after starting his campaign down 50 points, lacking name recognition, and facing media blackout. In 2020 he will enter the frontrunner, enter as the most popular politician in the country, enter with the name recognition of a rockstar, and the corporate media won't be able to effectively ignore him and portray him as fringe in the same way. The game has changed. There will not be enough dirty tricks in their playbook to stop him (I think). Support from people like you would be greatly appreciated. I personally think Sanders has earned our support even if the "democratic" party has not. Regarding, "No I won’t just vote if someone appears progressive in the Democratic Party" So you do not even trust yourself to decide if someone is progressive or not? You care more about a letter after a candidate's name more than anything else? You wouldn't vote for Clinton Holmes (d) but the exact same person can get your support if they change that one letter. Clinton Holmes (g) or Clinton Holmes (i) is toooottttallly different. Regarding, "My vote has to be earned" You demonstrate that your idea of "earned" has more to do with a party label than anything else. In one breathe you essentially say your vote can't be earned by dems and then you say this. We clearly have very different ideas of what "earns" our votes. Regarding, "Your hope for me to vote democrats if they are progressive is as useless as..." So you are progressive that isn't going to support progressives. Got it. It really is too bad. We both know the game is already rigged and could use you. I'm not sure why I think we can win when we can't even get progressives to support progressives. I guess I'm just a hopeless optimist.
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Regarding, "it’s my opinion that it is too late for a hostile takeover." But you don't feel the need to address my logical points as to why it isn't too late? Regarding, "an already dead party" Except they are not dead. And as much as it would be nice if they did actually just die the fact of the matter is that there is ZERO reason to logically think this is going to be happening anytime soon. Wishful thinking isn't going to make this happen.
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You are an idiot.
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You are the idiot. I thought I made myself clear but I guess you are not smart enough to understand even the simplest of things.
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