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Regarding, "There's more to the budget than defense spending." So what. That is a fucking pathetic excuse to rationalize supporting a bloated military budget that is even more than the orange clown in chief wanted.
Regarding, "DAPL was not that huge of an issue" It was to me.
Regarding, "just because someone doesn't mention it much doesn't mean they don't have opinions on it or would have opinions on it." I don't give a flying fuck about her private opinion. I want leaders. She clearly isn't.
Regarding, "So what if she didn't endorse Bernie?" You must be fucking with me. She had the opportunity to support a progressive and didn't because..... I don't really care why. The why isn't important to me like the action is important to me.
Regarding, "Is she supposed to tow the progressive line 100%." Pretty much. At least if you want me to consider you a progressive. You don't have to do this, but when you don't I'm not going to think you are a progressive and I'm only looking to support progressives.
Regarding, "Relationships matter in politics." Sure they do. But principles are far more important to me. Compare what Warren did to what Tulsi did during the primary. One demonstrated progressive principles by endorsing Sanders and one did not.
Regarding, "If Hilary won, Warren would of been on her good side." I guess if I were a fucking moron I'd care more about being on Hillary's "good side" than I'd care about getting an actual progressive in office. Look at what Warren has already fucking said about Hillary in her own fucking book. "As first lady, Mrs. Clinton had been persuaded that the bill was bad for families, and she was willing to fight for her beliefs. As New York’s newest senator, however, it seems that Hillary Clinton could not afford such a principled position . . . The bill was essentially the same, but Hillary Rodham Clinton was not." That is Warren acting on principle. That is back when I liked her. That was a long, long, long time ago. That was back when Warren actually fought for her beliefs. Because you know fighting for those beliefs is what is really important... not just claiming to have them.
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cezariusz regarding, "So it's about you feeling good about yourself" It is about being able to feel good about your vote. It is about knowing you voted for a candidate who actually deserved your support unlike some people.
Regarding, "Thanks very much, special snowflake, I hope it was worth the next four years" Don't let the fact that had every Jill Stein voter voted for Hillary Clinton she still would have lost.
Don't be afraid to save some blame for Hillary Clinton for sucking her entire life, some blame for Trump voters for Trump, some blame for the DNC for rigging the primary for their preferred inferior candidate, some blame for the corporate media for giving Trump billions in free media, some blame for the 40 plus percent of eligible voters who didn't vote, some blame for the 9 percent of "democratic" voters who voted for Trump. You won't thou. Brainwashed sheep like you will blame Jill Stein voters for voting for a candidate who isn't complete garbage like your queen.
Regarding, "since the election day. That wouldn't bother you, right?" Since election day it seems donations to the Clinton foundation have disappeared. That wouldn't bother you, right?
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Revision TV Regarding, "Sanders offers nothing" Sanders offers M4A, ending perpetual war, raising the minimum wage, breaking up the banks and bringing back glass steagal, education, raising the minimum wage, protecting the environment, criminal justice reform, and so much more. You are ridiculous.
Regarding, "Andrew Yang is the ONE!!!" He has no experience in politics and no record to look at to know if he is legit or full of shit. Stop being an idiot... for the country. Thanks.
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There is so much wrong with everything you say.
Regarding, "It was obvious who was worse" No. It really wasn't.
Regarding, "ALWAYS choose the lesser of two evils. PERIOD!" No. I won't. Because I refuse to support evil. Is it really so difficult to understand why supporting evil is wrong? Because to me that concept is pretty self-evident.
Regarding, "At least with HC some progressive agena would have succeeded." There is NOTHING progressive about Hillary and her agenda and for you to suggest there this is absurd. One of the reasons I'm actually happy with Trump being president is because sheep you will cry, whine and bitch about Trump being president but, if Hillary were president you would go to sleep and justify all the terrible shit she would be doing in office the same way Trump supporters are justifying the terrible shit he is doing.
Regarding, "With Trump, America has slid backward" America has been sliding backward for quite a long time. You know who shares a lot of the blame for that? Bill Clinton. Repeal of glass steagal, outsourcing jobs, mass incarceration with the omnibus crime bill, in general neoliberal policies. If you think America wouldn't have slid backward with a different disgrace like Hillary then you are an idiot.
Regarding, "it will take many years to see any progess now" You know another reason why I'm happy Trump is president? Because with him in office there is hope for an actual progressive president in 2020. With Hillary Clinton that would not be possible.
But you go ahead and continue to support shit as long as you think it smells better than different shit. You give them no reason to offer you anything other than shit. You fail to realize that the election of the moment isn't the only thing to think about. You need to think about every other election yet to come. And in every other election yet to come you give them no reason to try and earn your vote. They know you are going to give it to them regardless.
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rising regarding, "Trump is an asshole and doesn't hide it" I'm an asshole. Trump being an asshole is not why I can't stand him.
Regarding, "I voted for Trump to help collapse the GOP." That is a better reason than most still I think it is fucking stupid. You should be voting for your values not for blowing shit up.
Regarding, "Bernie was used to coral the youth vote" I'd ask why you think this if I cared more and/or thought there would be some kind of logic that would justify thinking this but there isn't.
Bernie Sanders entered the race to get his message out and to be able to talk about the issues he cares about... PROGRESSIVE ISSUES. He knew the game was rigged. I didn't think he thought he had a chance when entering (why should he have, he was down 60 points), but after realizing how much his message was resonating and seeing his support grow it seemed clear that he had a shot and he was as sad about not winning as anyone (see his body language at the convention).
Regarding, "only to switch it up at the last minute to give you the shit burger that was Hillary" Again this makes no fucking sense. Sanders exposed Hillary, the DNC, and the establishment for what they were and you think it was all just a ploy to get people to support Hillary? That makes no fucking sense to people paying attention. Hillary would have won had Sanders not run. But because of Sanders people decided they were not willing to support such a corrupt candidate and corrupt party even when the alternative was Cheeto dick.
Regarding, "endorses Hillary and tells his base to get behind her." When entering the primary candidates pledge to support the winner of the primary. Sanders did what he said he would and endorsed Hillary. Not even for that reason so much but because he didn't want Trump to be President and he didn't want to be blamed for Trump being president. Can you really blame him? I don't. And remember what this was and what it wasn't. It was a fucking endorsement not his soul. I fucking love Sanders but I happily voted for Jill Stein because only sheep vote based on another person's endorsement.
Regarding, "Bernie is a con artist , owns multiple huge homes" Do you get your stupid ass talking points from Hillary Inc?
Regarding, "WE VOTED HIM" You voted for Hillary Clinton with an orange dick. That is really something to be proud of if you are fucking stupid.
Regarding, "Bernie though is a fake progressive , he is owned by the Dem Establishment." Yeah, the guy who has done more to expose the DNC and the establishment for their corruption and rot is working for them. That would make sense if I were a fucking moron.
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Erik regarding, "Nobody said Hillary is entitled to your vote." It certainly is implied when Bob says, "Don't you know that this might NEVER have happened if people hadn't voted for a spoiler" I'm not voting for a "spoiler" when I vote for Jill Stein. I'm voting for the only candidate that represents me, my priorities, and my ethics. I'm voting for the only candidate running who actually deserves my vote. But to sheep that means spoiler.
Regarding, "We're saying voting for Hillary is probably in your best interest" Well, you are very, very, very wrong. Hillary is everything I despise about our political system, politicians, and state of politics. And it isn't up to you. It isn't your vote so it isn't your call.
Regarding, "you're most likely throwing your vote towards nothing" I'm getting the Green party closer to the very important 5 percent mark even if she doesn't win and I'm letting the establishment know I'm not going to choose between a douche and a turd.
Regarding, "actually impacting who the next President is." You seem to think I consider Hillary and Trump to be very different. They aren't, at least not in any sort of meaningful way. (being a better liar is not a meaningful difference)
Regarding, "Nobody is denying you the right to do that. We're just point out what it means." You are blaming Green party voters already if Hillary loses. Stop denying that.
Regarding, "There are only two outcomes this election" No there aren't.
Regarding, "Good luck to you if you think doing something else has a bigger impact on your future." I will. My vote isn't just about this election but about all the elections yet to come.
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Eobard regarding, "We need to beat trump." Had Trump not run he would have been considered by Hillary for VP. She went to his wedding. Trump talked to Bill immediately before announcing he was running. They are not different in any sort of meaningful way.
Regarding, "I don't want us to go to war" Do you not realize that Hillary has a 100 percent record of choosing war over peace? Hillary has said, "As President, I will make it clear that the United States will treat cyberattacks just like any other attack. We will be ready with serious political, economic, and military responses." MILITARY RESPONSES. No big deal thou. It isn't as if she wasn't currently accusing Russia of cybercrimes to distract and deflect from the fact she was caught being corrupt as fuck.
Hillary wants a no fly zone in Syria. ISIS doesn't have planes. Russia does. What is the worst thing that could happen? Other than WW3?
Regarding, "With Hillary atleast we have 8 years of peace." What are you smoking?
Regarding, "no illegal wars" Like the illegal Iraq war she voted for, with "conviction"?
Regarding, "Her foreign policy is actually one of her better areas" Not if you actually want to give peace a chance like myself.
Go "Correct the Record" elsewhere.
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rising regarding, "My thoughts about Bernie are just an opinion and a theory" Yup. A really dumb opinion and a really dumb theory that makes no motherfucking sense.
Regarding, "he knew it was rigged" Anybody with a fucking brain knew it was rigged at least as early as when 400 superdelegates came out and supported Clinton before a single peasant was allowed to vote.
Regarding, "I think he played his part." He is either fucking terrible at his role or you are just dumb as fuck. I'm thinking dumb as fuck.
Regarding, "Bernie is a rich bitch, with multiple McMansions." Holy shit are your Clinton talking points stupid. Compare him to the actual oligarchy. And the most recent house the Sanders bought was paid for by inheritance from his wife's side. You either are not doing your research, are fucking stupid, are being paid to smear, or a combination of those.
Regarding, "the Establishment doesn't want real change." No shit. You figure that all by yourself?
Regarding, "part practical joke" Good one. Don't quit your day job and try comedy.
Regarding, "I'm not going to pretend I'm on your side." Clearly you are not. You voted for Trump for fucks sake.
Regarding, "we can both agree that something is extremely fucked up in this nation." Yes. And you are not helping.
Regarding, "some men just want to watch the world burn." Yeah. They are called douchebags. You are a douchebag. Good luck with that. I'm done with this.
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op kingdom regarding, "All JD/WNC Candidates need to run as Greens in each GENERAL and bypass the Dems altogether." I understand why you would say this but I disagree.
Regarding, "The Greens have a national presence/infrastructure and are 100% willing to embrace the Progressive candidates." I love the Green Party. I identify with them far more than I do any other party. That said winning, although not the only thing, is very important to me. I admit to being demoralized after Jill Stein's showing last election. She wasn't running against 2 of the most despised politicians in the country, she was running against 2 of the most despised HUMANS in the country. Still she only got about 1 percent of the vote (I'm told. I have my doubts in all honesty.)
And so they are plan B for me. Plan A is to get a true progressive to win the "democratic" nomination like Sanders, Gabbard, or Turner. If a progressive can win the primary they will not run the risk of splitting left leaning thinkers during the general. And remember that winning the most electoral votes isn't enough to win the general. An independent would need a majority of electoral votes.
Let's say a 3rd party candidate wins the presidency. They are immediately opposed by both major parties and they will likely be able to get nothing done. Then after they are gone everything goes back to normal and it is business as usual. If Sanders or a true progressive wins as a dem they would be able to reform the party from the inside. They would be able to enact certain reforms unilaterally like, for example, banning them from accepting their legalized bribes among others. Then we might have a party that cares about the people rather than just caring about their big money sugar daddies.
Not only that but then democrats would be more willing to work with them instead of unilaterally opposing them on everything.
Please work to build the green party. I will certainly be voting for them if the dems nominate a corporate stooge. But please vote in the "democratic" primary. That is very different and has nothing to do with your vote in the general.
Regarding, "It is LITERALLY the only hope for getting Progressives into Office." Maybe you are right and I'm just being naive. Maybe there is no hope a progressive can win the "democratic" nomination. If and when that happens I will happily join with you to vote for the Green candidate. But until then I'm going to try and get a true progressive to win the dem nomination. But that is a bridge I will only cross when I get there.
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Regarding, "DNC rigs the primary against Bernie again" At least try to be consistent about the stupid things you say. You go from saying that Bernie has sold out his principles but now you say the DNC is going to rig it against him. Why would they rig it against him if what you originally said was true? Well, obviously what you originally said was not true and even you at some level realize it is bullshit. You are right. The DNC is going to do everything to rig the primary. The game has already started. They will do anything and everything to smear him (note, THIS IS IDENTICAL TO WHAT YOU ARE DOING). But Sanders has weapons he didn't have in 2016. In 2016 he was down 50 points to Hillary. The establishment was effective at portraying Hillary as inevitable. In 2020 Sanders will be the frontrunner. The game has changed even if it still isn't fair.
Regarding, "I don't see you to be any different to the Hilbots and Trumptards." That is pretty funny coming from the guy who tries to smear Sanders in the exact same way hillshills and trumptards do.
Regarding, "And based on your reasoning, because Bernie is the most popular candidate with the best chance of winning because of name recognition, we should should just bend over and accept whatever he does, regardless of our own values or principles." No dipshit. I'm saying that because I'm a progressive, as is Sanders, I'm going to support him, in part because of the advantages he holds over any other progressives. Try not to overthink it and make it into something it isn't.
Regarding, "winning is more important than doing what is right." Holy shit are you stupid. Seriously you are exactly like Trump and Hillary supporters. Winning isn't everything but it is important despite your effort to pretend it isn't.
Again good luck with your efforts to smear Sanders. You share that trait with Hillary and Trump supporters. The establishment loves you for it.
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@buecherdrache1 Regarding, "But there was no large gathering of cameras, when he adopted him." And still we somehow have managed to received this propaganda. It's like you are describing a time when I adopted a dog, didn't try to use it to make everyone like me, and it was never on the dodo.
Regarding, "There were no pictures of him picking up the puppy for fostering, no pictures of him specifically showing of the dog to the public. So why is this political theater" I'm not going to lie I have trouble taking your questions very seriously.
Regarding, "the most important part (the press) is not there?" "most important part" I honestly have no clue as to what point you are trying to allude to. I suspect it's not good even if I understand exactly what you are trying to say.
Regarding, "Could it maybe just be, that he needed an outlet to his political life and chose a dog for this?" What? I do my best to try and address every point that people are trying to make to me. But sometimes I just have to admit that I have no clue what you are trying to say. Feel free to try and rephrase and try again.
Regarding, "So what makes you think this is?" In short I know this is political PR because of common sense. Would you have as much trouble recognizing it as that if it were trump doing this?
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cez regarding, "Jill Stein's insignificant 1% result was not enough to swing the election." That isn't going to stop fools like you from blaming Jill Stein voters.
Regarding, "'Hillary will bring WW3' bs" Don't be afraid to blame Hillary from giving them something to fear. She did say, "As President, I will make it clear that the United States will treat cyberattacks just like any other attack. We will be ready with serious political, economic, and military responses" At the same time that she was accusing Russia of cybercrimes to distract and deflect from the fact that she was caught being corrupt as fuck.
Regarding, "and now they're like 'don't blame me'" You can go ahead and blame me if you want. You will anyway. Sadly there weren't enough Jill Stein voters for you to do so without lying. Hillary Clinton supporters, like their candidate, are cool with lying to serve their purposes.
Regarding, "And don't worry, Hillary deserves 80% of blame for all of this." Isn't that nice and surprising of you to say. Too bad the other Hillary sheep are too busy making excuses for the fallen queen that have nothing to do with the fact that Hillary lost because of Hillary.
Regarding, "But if we want to clean up this mess, the left must get to work and leave special snowflakes behind, cause they are useless." Seems you have learned nothing. Keep on courting Republican voters instead of the left then. That makes sense to sheep.
Regarding, "They are already spinning Trump as a more progressive than Dems." It does seem that he is killing the TPP. He isn't progressive but there is a case to be made that he is more progressive than Hillary was, not that that is saying much.
Regarding, "I'm guessing they won't be working against him." Bernie Sanders said it best when he said we are willing to work with him where there is common ground and we will oppose him when works against what we believe in.
Regarding, "If your fixation on Clinton foundation is more important to you than hate crimes" Only a sheep would suggest that my bringing it up means it is "more important" than your BS talking point. Here are some points for you to ignore. Hillary Clinton has a direct impact on the foundation and their immoral activity. Donald Trump is not encouraging people to commit hate crimes. You talk as if it was the Donald himself committing hate crimes. Speaking of hate crimes and racism how many people were imprisoned due to the "superpredator" problem Hillary and Bill addressed with the omnibus crime bill back in the day? Speaking of hate crimes the current "democratic" President is letting ND "play out." You see I care about hate crimes when both parties do it. You ignore it when it is your "team." Racist as fuck policies were actually a great reason to not support the corporate democrats. But you keep on trying to scare me with your cup of water while I'm already standing out in the rain thanks to your POS that I'm suppose to feel bad she lost. I don't.
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We want peace and the military industrialized complex reigned in, money out of politics, transparency in government, health care for all, education for all who want it, no fracking and to protect the environment, financial reform and glass-steagal back, criminal justice reform and an end to the war on drugs, jobs and no TPP, a living wage, freedom and equality, and free and fair elections. Is that what you mean by purist? If so I guess I'm guilty.
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Kara regarding, "Keith Ellison got pushed out of dnc chair, no matter how much power the JD thought they had." I don't think they are pretending or claiming to have the upper hand. I think they are fighting for it thou and I support them.
Regarding, "Kimberly Ellis" The reason you have stories about a person like Ellis is because there are still good people fighting in the party who deserve our support. That doesn't mean we aren't fighting against the establishment, we are. That doesn't mean we think the game is fair, we know it isn't. But we think it is still a fight worth having.
Regarding, "tom perez goes and cleans out progressive opposition" Yup. It is fucked up. It is wrong. But the bottom line is that he has to do shit like that because, again, there are still good people working in the party who deserve your support. They are fighting for you. The least you can do is not turn your back on them.
Regarding, "have the word democrat or republican next to your name is nothing more than a disgusting corporatist badge of dishonor" Then you really shouldn't give a shit about Ellis or what Perez did because it was only affecting disgusting people. You care way too much about a party labe when you should care first and foremost about the person. For example I love Bernie Sanders and support him. I'd do so if he called himself a democrat, republican, green, independent, or martian. The party label is not nearly as important as the person. Try to realize that.
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Pat regarding, "we would have been in world war III with Hillary" I do not agree with this. I think that under Hillary the military industrialized complex would march on but, for example, I do not think she would have started WW3 with Russia in the end. That simply would not serve the interests of the elites in the long run. That said I was never going to vote for Hillary in part because of her stance on war and peace.
Regarding, "We are better off" We shall see. Time will tell. I think these next 4 years are really going to suck but I think they are necessary so that we can get some real change for the better afterward.
I never thought we would have a black President in my lifetime. Especially not one named Barack Hussein Obama but he won because of his promise of hope and change that the country desperately crazed. Unfortunately the military industrialized complex continued, money in politics stayed, his signature piece of legislation was a Republican policy, BS in ND was turned a blind eye to, the most corrupt option available was named to succeed him, and instead, not surprisingly people voted for change again. Even terrifying change.
Trump is going to suck but he too will lead to backlash and change after him. Hopefully the democratic party offer a real option and not just lip service to the issues of the people.
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Jesus regarding, "Trump ended the TPP." I'll be happy if this ends up being the case but I'm not cracking the champagne just yet.
Regarding, "Made peace with Russia" Huh, I didn't know we were at war with Russia. And he accomplished this before even taking office. Trump is pretty amazing or you are insane.
Regarding, "is scaring Ford and Apple to keeping jobs in the USA" I'd ask you to elaborate on this if I were actually interested in what you had to say.
Regarding, "has China and SaudiArabia calling him out of respect" Because leaders calling the winners of elections is not normal I guess.
Regarding, "Japanese Prime minister saying he is happy and gas full confidence in President Trump after 90 minute meeting" I expected him to break down crying and claim the apocalypse was about to begin (that is sarcasm in case you can't tell).
Regarding, "has Canada and Mexico begging that they are willing to renogotiate Nafta," Ok. This I am actually curious to know what you are talking about. It smells like BS.
Regarding, "StockMarket" Of course wall street is thrilled. They know he is going to deregulate them and let them run wild as they fuck over the public.
Regarding, "He us already a better president than Obama, and he has not even taken iffice." LOL. Yes, the guy who isn't president is already a great president. If logic were a person they would kick your ass.
Regarding, "CNN" I don't watch CNN and try to avoid thinking about them as much as possible. That said I'm betting Corey Lewdowski is sucking your clowns dick.
Regarding, "They know Trump has potential to Make America Great Again." Do you have any idea how empty that sounds to the sane.
Regarding, "Even if he has to bring brainwashed peeps" This is funny coming from someone who is clearly brainwashed.
Regarding, "But ibwill be first to call him out in 2 years uf he has failed some." Consider me a skeptic of this statement.
Regarding, "Do u even doubtbthat?" Yes. I think you are being absurd.
Regarding, "A reasonable person would give him a chance at least for a year with an open mind." I have no choice but to give him a chance. But considering his words, his actions, his lack of character, and everything about him only a fool thinks he is going to be a good president.
Regarding, "he is as bad a Prez as BushJr was" Yes. You are utterly ridiculous. I'm not a fan of Obama but W... president during 9-11, the stock market, skyrocketing deficit, katrina, didn't get bin laden, the patriot act, torture, gitmo, lied us into the Iraq war, bailouts and more. You, as usual, are being absurd even if Obama has sucked as well.
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danny regarding, "I am certain there is NO WAY to win within that corrupt, corporatist war party." I am not as certain. Sanders, a true progressive, barely "lost" in 2016 after entering the race down 60 points. In 2020 he will enter with the name recognition of a rock star and as rightfully the most popular politician in the country. Even the corrupt party will not be able to stop him.
Regarding, "I originally registered with them in order to vote in their closed primaries," Good. Thank you. You should be voting in their primaries. It is fucked up you need to register with them. It is undemocratic. It is wrong. But it is necessary and important. And if you decide you don't want to vote for them in the general then you don't have to. But you should be using the opportunity you have to shape their party. The close primaries because they know how important it is and don't want you to vote in it. Fuck them. What better reason do you need to make sure you do other than the fact that the establishment doesn't want you to?
Regarding, "the party has shifted more and more to "the right" and become ever more beholden to big money." Yup but the war isn't over. Thanks, in large part to Sanders, more of the country is woke to the rot in the party than ever.
Regarding, "Since they conned me" They have successfully conned lots of people. Obama was suppose to be hope and change but he was same old same old.
Regarding, "they will coopt/adopt some of our polices" They are never going to change unless they are forced to change. And the only way they are going to be forced to change is by electing a progressive as head of the party.
Regarding, "But as long as we play in their sandbox, all we'll get is sand in our eyes." The sad fact of the matter is that if you want to elect a progressive president anytime soon the only way that is going to happen is by going through the "democratic" party. Sanders give us the best chance of that happening in 2020 for the first time in essentially forever. Don't take the opportunity to try and help him or another progressive because you are rightfully pissed at the party. You don't vote for a party. You vote for a person.
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@zackdurant1584 regarding, "I’m not shifting the burden of proof." Let's agree to disagree about this. It seems clear that you are with your lack of understanding how atheism is the default position.
Regarding, "I just have a problem when atheists say “there is no god”" Try to understand that, "I am unconvinced of any god claims" just don't roll of the tongue the same way. Do you get mad when people say, "there is no flying spaghetti monster in the sky?" or "Zeus is mythological bullshit." I suspect not even thou, for all I can say with absolute certainty, there is a flying spaghetti monster in the sky and Zeus is real.
Regarding, "I think atheism being the default position is a joke" But it is... or it should be because you should need good evidence to believe things and disbelief in literally everything is the default to the sane. Do you have any other examples of where you think people should believe in things by default without evidence? I suspect not. Then again who knows. Backward religious type thinking has a way of bleeding into other ways of using logic, reason, and evidence incorrectly.
Regarding, "it’s not like they say “we don’t know” Do you go around saying you don't know if unicorns exist? Because for all you can say with any certainy you don't right? Or do you say you don't think unicorns exist like sane people do for the exact same reasons I say god doesn't exist.
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Nate regarding, "all that talk he does is great," Um... yeah... it is. He can't do everything by himself. And getting shit done starts with winning the war of ideas.
Regarding, "but when push came to shove Bernie backed down from the DNC." It is worth noting that when entering the primary he agreed to support the nominee. It is worth noting that Sanders pretty much always does what he says he will. It is worth noting that he talked over, and over, and over, and over about how much he didn't think Trump should be president and that he would do everything in his power to try and stop him. Let's not pretend those aren't the facts.
Regarding, "They cheated him by rigging the primary against him." Yup.
Regarding, "That was his chance to be a real revolutionary by exposing the corruption on both sides." It was already exposed for fucks sake. Do you really think the people that still want to claim the primary was fair were all of a sudden going to wake the fuck up if Sanders cried about getting fucked over? The bottom line is that Americans fucking hate whiners, even if their whining is justified. Even Hillary supporters had an impossible time defending their fallen queen on her blame everybody other than herself book tour. I don't need Sanders to tell me he got fucked over and neither should you or anyone.
Regarding, "That would have allowed him to really start a third party." All of this obsession over starting a new party even thou we live in a world where the game is completely rigged against 3rd parties. The bottom line is that you gotta pick your poison and the best way to go is to try and takeover the corrupt "democratic" party. That would kill 2 birds with one stone. Even if you successfully created a new party you would still have 2 corrupt major parties to deal with.
Regarding, "Instead he has gone along with the Russia ruse" Ruse? Do you really want to claim they didn't fuck with us at all? Because they did even if the corporate media wildly overblows their influence. Ultimately Sanders is wise to admit they fucked with us because... ya know... they did.
Regarding, "and loss of Hillary" The corporate media wildly overblows their influence because it creates an excuse for hillary's loss. And that is important because they need to justify the status quo. It wasn't hillary's fault it was russias. That is bullshit. But ultimately russia did fuck with us so let's not pretend they didn't. And it isn't surprising. The USA fucks with everyone and I don't need a smoking gun to know it.
Regarding, "Now the DNC made sure he will never get the nomination." Did they? How so? Because there is this still a thing called the "democratic" primary. It isn't fair but it does give the peasants an opportunity to have their say. And if they are willing to fight him doesn't that tell you he isn't their shill? You can't have it both ways. He can't have sold out and them be fighting him and it make sense.
Regarding, "But will he actually run as a 3rd party?" You know something that would have forever damaged a 3rd party movement? Sanders running as a 3rd party candidate and Trump winning. The only reason Sanders isn't effectively blamed for Trump is because he did what he did. Now yes they do try to blame him. But the sane are easily able to see through this and it only makes them look worse.
Regarding, "He’s been bought and paid for." I guess that is why they are working overtime to do anything and everything to stop him. I guess that is why they will again do everything they can to fuck him over in 2020.
Regarding, "If he was smart he would have called for an investigation into the DNC, completely rejected the Russia narrative" Worst advice ever. There is a reason he is the most popular politician in the country, winning the war of ideas, and in a position to bring change going forward... because he didn't think this was a "smart."
Regarding, "vote 3rd party." Here is the reality... Jill Stein got 1 percent of the vote against 2 of, not only the most despised politicians, but most despised HUMANS in the country. Think about that for a minute before you conclude 3rd parties are the answer in this country currently.
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op kingdom regarding, "if Bernie got in as President, he, too would be "opposed at every turn" from Reps & Dems." You have a point but I think you must realize that Bernie gets pushed much harder by dems if he is an 3rd party than if he is a dem. That said you are correct to think they will be reluctant to do anything good on their own but it will be much harder for them to justify if they are in the same party at the time.
Regarding, "Progressive President" I promise you I want a progressive president as much as you. But the fact remains that the easist way to get one is to go through the "democratic" party. And if I am wrong it doesn't stop any of us for voting 3rd party afterward.
Regarding, "Because EVERYONE would be happier paying less for their better insurance." Have you met the American public? There are lots of idiots out there who vote against their own interests.
Regarding, "We need Progressives in Congress" We definitely agree on this.
Regarding, "and the Democrats will NOT allow that" Voters do have a say in the matter.
Regarding, "The party has now rigged their power structure against Progressives." It has always been rigged... they are just making it worse. But they have to rig the game because there is still a game to be played. Of course it is fucked up that they get to start a touchdown up and it is wrong we have play that way but it is still a fight worth having. Especially when voting in the primary doesn't cost you anything. It isn't like you have to then vote them in the general.
Regarding, "They have closed ranks and we KNOW they believe that can just select their candidates in a smoky back room." They do all their shady shit because they KNOW there are still elections to be had.
Regarding, "They are not seeking UNITY with Progressives" No they are not and I am not seeking unity with them. I'm looking to take over the party hostile takeover style. And if it doesn't work the green party is plan B.
Regarding, "the ONLY power Progressives held" We still have our votes. I like to think they have realized they can't win without them. I'm not sure they have but clearly they are power.
Regarding, "Progressives have been purged." How about we purge them? To do that we need to win their primary. And it absolutely is possible. And again, if it isn't there is a plan B.
Regarding, "Time to re-strategize because the Dem Party is closed to Progressives now." I'm not as sure. I'm going to make them prove it. I will reevaluate after the primary. Til then I'm still going to try to go through them.
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Regarding, "how is this attacking her????" If you wonder why I might have trouble taking you seriously take this question.... do you really not know the answer to this with me answering it for you? Are you really so baffled that not only do you ask it but you think it requires extra question marks? I guess I'll try to explain the obvious to you but I have to question myself as to why I would. Well... most people understand that politicians who flip flop and hold conflicting positions are less trustworthy and less electable like the picture of her you are trying to paint.
Regarding, "Its not my fault..." Maybe so but this is not relevant to my point.
Regarding, "Kulinski... do(es)." Although he uses labels I am confident that he would agree with me far more then you in that what is important are policy positions and not labels.
Regarding, "I'm not the one going in full on attack mode" I'm sure that when you call me a sensitive snowflake that is waaaay different right?
Regarding, "for a critique of someone" Don't let the actual why of my lack of tolerance for you, which I've already said, get in the way of what you want to think. Clearly it doesn't.
Regarding, "someone whom you've obviously placed on a pedestal and can do no wrong" Don't let the fact that I, for example, just got done telling you that I am no expert on her get in the way of the fantasies you want to paint. I'm sure it is easier for you to think this rather then just accept the fact that maybe, just maybe, it has more to do with me thinking you are disingenuous and insincere. You know... like I've already said.
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@penpenultra Regarding, "I understand that mentality, but it will get us nowhere." But voting for Biden who is terrible and the antithesis of everything I believe in will get us somewhere?
Regarding, "I voted green in 2016" Good for you. And the world, and the country. If only more people were sane by doing this.
Regarding, "it was a vote of principle" All your votes should be votes of principle. If you aren't representing your principles with your vote you certainly won't get representatives who share your principles.
Regarding, "which garnered absolutely no utility, no value." I guess by your "logic" the only votes of any value were votes for trump then right? Because it only matters if you win?
Regarding, "Voting for the Democratic party is not easy for me, but I see it as a necessary means to subverting our delve into fascism. At least this year." Whatever you got to tell yourself as to rationalize supporting a POS. You aren't the only one. There are plenty of republicans who know trump is evil and terrible and will vote for him anyway using their version of your "logic." Sure trump is terrible, but they need to vote for him because of biden, or pelosi, or hillary. Ultimately you are sheep supporting terrible for terrible reasons.
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Zach. Paragraphs. Learn about them and use them.
Regarding, "I'm going to make the case that people are to stupid to pick a candidate that is truly great because they lack the mental tools to understand any policy to begin with." I guess we shouldn't let people vote then. SMH
Regarding, "I don't want people with less intelligence making decisions for the nation based on things beyond their understanding regardless of their intentions." I don't care how you want to rationalize telling people who can or can't vote. I don't care if you think you are really smart (even though you aren't smart enough to use paragraphs) your vote gets to count no more or less than anyone else. We are all equal on election day. Stop thinking you are so special and deserve special treatment. You don't.
Regarding, "Congrats on your unfair and crap system to replace an unfair and crap system." Why exactly is one person one vote unfair exactly again? Because people less smart than you get to vote? We are going to have to agree to disagree.
Regarding, "the founding fathers looked at the history of their time and found that direct democracies are crap." The founding fathers legalized slavery and didn't allow women to vote. I have no problem telling them they are wrong when they are wrong.
Regarding, "The United States are a Republic." The very standard, very cliche argument of that is how it has always been. You have fit right in with people trying to keep slavery around because that is how it has always been.
Regarding, "The popular vote didn't win but,..." Excuses. Excuses. Excuses. Try to stay on topic.
Regarding, "Democrats laziness and snubbing their base" This isn't about a certain side. This isn't about democrats sucking. I hate Hillary. I'm happy she isn't going to be President but I'm here saying it should be popular vote because that is what I always think. It isn't about helping a team or caring who changing the system would benefit. It is about doing the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing.
Regarding, "People not participating is the problem." No. That's a completely different, completely unrelated problem.
Regarding, "Your concern should be that of your state. Your state is suppose to represent you." You sound like you are talking about state elections. You are not. We are talking about a federal election. A person that is suppose to represent everyone regardless of the state you live in.
Regarding, "I'd like to hear your thoughts?" Any ideas other than everyone getting one vote and everyone's vote counting the same and most votes wins is absurd. The only other thing you might be able to add to this is ranked choice voting to get to a majority. But in the end the bottom line is that everyone's vote should count the same. Period.
Seriously. Paragraphs. It is worth repeating. Not using them makes it difficult to take you seriously.
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"Nobody likes you Bernie freaks you're rabid haters" Love the hypocrisy. Are you not smart enough to realize you are doing it or do you just not mind being a complete hypocrite?
"Sanders is a selfish old man feeding his ego" You support Hillary Clinton. The irony is as obvious as your hypocrisy... too bad you are not smart enough to realize your stupidity.
"Bernie and his followers showed who they really are Chronic Independent party crybabies who hate liberals" I am proud to call myself an independent. There are too many people who are loyal to their party first and their country.... somewhere down on the list. I am crying. Either Hillary or Trump is likely to be the next President. This makes me sad. It should also make you sad as well but you are not smart enough to be. Hate liberals? I've proudly called myself a liberal since I became interested in politics.
"the DNC" The DNC is corrupt as fk. They biased the entire election process from day one. They allowed DWS be head of the DNC despite a clear conflict of interest... she was Hillary's campaign co-chair in 2008 afterall. They love money in politics because it allows them to hold onto their power. They disenfranchise voters. They allowed their superdelegates to call an election before major elections (voter suppression) the day before elections... as opposed to letting voters vote without them putting their thumb on the scale. They have pushed a corrupt, hated, corporate shill like HRC from day one, only bothering hold sham elections.
"overthrow the the will of the voters" It's tough to know the will of the voters when the game has been rigged from day one and it's tough to know the will of the voters when you don't allow people to vote. If we had free and fair elections, which we don't, you would really have a good point.
"$220 million down the drain, and in Sanders's pockets.Has there been a more ungracious candidate in recent political history?..." You must be one of Hillary's and David Brock's paid shill right? Part of the her super pac money that is being spent spreading lies, misinformation, hate, false support and BS talking points for the queen? Your attacks are everything that I would expect from a Trump supporter. It really is impossible to tell the difference between talking to them and talking to you. You have nothing to offer in support of your candidate but try your hardest to put others down. You ignore the hypocrisy of your attacks because you live in glass house.
"Clinton Won and by the Popular VOTE " Superdelegates tilted the field from day one. 3 million independents in NY alone were not allowed to vote. Exit polls are too far outside the margin of error (when they weren't being canceled). So yeah, if you ignore the cheating, disenfranchisement, and shenanigans you have a great point. Too bad we don't have free and fair elections coming from the "democratic" party or you really would have a great point here.
"People didn't want hateful Sanders and his hateful followers" Not like you right? You've called me a twat, loser, turd, and more while living in your glass house. I understand why you support Hillary... she speaks to your values and ethics... none.
"us Democrats" Your a democrat huh? You make me embarrassed to think that I used to be proud to call myself one. I won't be making that mistake again anytime soon. I do not support corruption and cronyism so I will not be supporting HRC or the DNC again anytime soon.
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Lunch Box regarding, "Yeah and elect Donald Trump" Don't be afraid to save some blame for Hillary for sucking her entire life, some blame for Trump voters for Trump, some blame for the DNC for rigging the primary for their inferior candidate, some blame for the MSM for giving biased terrible "news" including BILLIONS of free media for Trump, some blame for the over 40 percent of eligible voters who didn't vote, and some blame for the 9 percent of democratic voters who voted for Trump. You won't though. Morons like you will blame Jill Stein voters even though if ever one of them voted for your disgrace of a candidate she still would have lost. That makes sense to brainwashed sheep.
Regarding, "You dont trow temper tantrum if you do not get ALL you want" This is fucking hilarious as you stomp your feet and whine like a petulant child because people didn't vote as you wanted them to. Hopefully the DNC gets the message that they can't take voters for granted and need to give better options going forward if they want to get support and win elections in the future.
Regarding, "Jill Stein elected donald trump" No she didn't dipshit. Had every Jill Stein voter voted for Hillary she still would have lost moron. I wish she could have gotten more votes so you could claim otherwise and still your BS claim wouldn't be true. The fact of the matter is that HILLARY CLINTON, because she fucking sucks, elected Donald Trump.
Regarding, "do not forget to tell everyone around you that will suffer under him that you stood your ground and made a protest vote that elected him" Don't forget to tell everyone around you that you are a liar and moron. That would actually be something you would say that is true for a change.
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Regarding, "The US already engages in the killing of the families of suspected terrorists." The US is currently targeting terrorists. Unfortunately there are too many (I assume, we have no real accurate number to look at for bad reasons) civilian casualties. But those are not intentional. Trump suggests targeting the families of terrorists, not because of something they have done (or he would just be saying 'you have to take out terrorists'), but because of who they share blood with. Regarding, "tell us how Drumpf's words are so appalling?" I really should not have to explain this. This should be self evident. Are you serious that you needed an explanation? Regarding, "Torture?" From wiki, "Waterboarding is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations." The US tried Japanese for war crimes for waterboarding during WW2. Regarding, "Gitmo, still alive and active." Yes. This is utterly atrocious. What is your point exactly? I have trouble following you because you seem pretty dense.
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Elana regarding, "Out of curiosity, why is he a racist for being conservative about illegal immigration?" Because he is not consistent with his argument. If you actually care about illegal immigration you can't only care about brown people's illegal immigration.
Regarding, "When discussing illegal immigration, haven't we typically looked south in our references." Yes. For very racist reasons.
Regarding, "but it seems disingenuous to suggest other politicians haven't done the same." Is seems very disingenuous to put words into my mouth. When have I ever said anything even remotely close to what you suggest?
Regarding, "I think mostly everyone should follow the rules we put in place to attain citizenship, barring extreme circumstances - that just seems fair" Everyone essentially thinks that. But, if you are going to be honest, you must admit that our legal immigration system is completely broken. And people who want to come to America in search of a better way of life, who want to provide for their families and contribute to society should be allowed to do so legally. And the fact that our legal immigration policies are completely broken is a huge part of the problem.
Regarding, "Why is this a racist notion?" The notion is not racist as long as you are willing to be consistent with your beliefs and apply them uniformly. When you only want to address brown people's illegal immigration while ignoring white peoples illegal immigration that is, by very definition, racist as fuck.
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Aurel regarding, "explain to me how you are treating yourself with respect if you want to numb yourself to not experience reality." There is so much wrong with this sentence it is really tough to know where to begin to explain what is wrong with it. First off the characterization that all drugs "numb" is wrong. There are lots and lots of drugs with lots and lots of different effects. And the exact same drug can have a different effect depending on the person using it. Bottom line is that to suggest that all drugs numb is terribly misguided. The drug category know as stimulants do essentially the exact opposite of "numb."
Then there is your suggestion that, because you have taken a drug, you are "not experiencing reality." Again this is utterly insane and demonstrates a complete lack of understand of what drugs do and what we, as society define reality to mean. If you were talking specifically about hallucinogenics, again a specific category of drugs, you could say such a thing and not come across as ignorant beyond words (even if I would still tell you why you were wrong) but your characterization that someone who has taken drugs suddenly isn't "experiencing reality" requires you completely redefine what society has determined reality to mean.
Then there is the notion that, if you are taking some kind of drug you are not, "treating yourself with respect." Again there is so much crazy in that sentence I can't believe I'm addressing it but there is nothing innately disrespectful about taking drugs. If you were talking specifically about people who ABUSE drugs, which you are not, then again you wouldn't be coming across as blatantly absurd as you are.
Do you know why people take drugs? Because they work. Because they are fun. Because they can make you feel good. There is nothing wrong or abnormal about people wanting to have fun and feel good. The thing is is that, like all things that can make people feel good and have fun they can overdo it. And when they do that the negative consequences begin to out-weight the positives and they become a problem in their lives. And even still, to people to whom drugs have become a problem in their lives they do not bad people because of it. They might have more trouble being a good person but that is not the same.
There is more I could say about why that entire sentence is absurd but hopefully you get the point (I doubt it thou).
Regarding, "I would not have the need to escape reality by taking drugs." Nobody NEEDS to take recreational drugs. That is what makes them RECREATIONAL. Some people choose to because that is the nature of recreation. Maybe I CHOOSE to go to a baseball game for recreation because it is something I enjoy doing and you would sound just as absurd and insane if you said that if I did I "wouldn't need to escape reality by going to a baseball game, if reality was something I enjoyed." Or what if I enjoy reading fiction. I'm sure you say the same insane things like, "wouldn't need to escape reality by reading fiction, if reality was something I enjoyed." The things you don't realize about that example is that, 1) even if it is "fiction," it becomes real to me when I'm experiencing it therefor it is reality and 2) just because I enjoy experiencing it doesn't mean I don't also enjoy experiencing other things.
Regarding, "If my reality is not enjoyable enough to be experienced, then I have not worked at creating the reality I want, which means Im a “bad“ (unfunctional) person." This "logic" is insane. Again it is truly remarkable how you could jam pack so much wrong into such a small space. Forgive me but I'm not going to break this down. Even if I did I am convinced it isn't going to get through to you.
Regarding, "She didnt “rail against the government“. Yes she made arguments as to why government is evil." Go back and reread this as many times as it takes for you to realize why writing this is idiotic. Hint, making arguments as to why government is evil is railing against the government to the sane.
Regarding, "Yes she was a hypocrite." Yes she was. And if you actually want to know the difference between whether or not someone is good and bad this, unlike whether or not they take drugs, determines good and bad.
Regarding, "Yes she was an idiot for thinking that smoking is not unhealthy. This doesnt have anything to do with her arguments though." Actually it kind of does. After someone demonstrates that they are a moron, like you concede she did in the first sentence, then I can rightfully be less inclined to take anything else they have to say seriously. That said she may very well make a good argument about something somewhere... I'm sure Hitler did someonewhere at sometime too... I just don't care to hear it and am not interested in it because I have no respect for the person. (I would like to add that if I did actually listen to whatever "thought" of hers you are trying to get at I'm certain I would conclude it is insane and misguided, like all your "thoughts.")
Regarding, "I never claimed she was a good person. I said that she provided a good case for there being more important things than treating others fairly in order to be a good person." So you don't understand the importance of whether or not a person is good or bad has relevance to their arguments about what makes a person good or bad? Sorry but if I'm going to listen to arguments about why someone is good versus bad I'm going to want to be listening to good people making that argument and I'm not going to want to be listening to bad people making that argument. Do I need to elaborate as to why? Because I think it is self-evident.
All the things you say seem to come from the position that because someone takes drugs they are a bad person and you work backward from that conclusion and make other claims that are utterly absurd to try and make your point. You redefine words and make logical fallacies just to back up something that, in all honesty, in insane beyond words. But at least you get to think that you are fucking amazing, super special, and better than everyone else because of your idiotic beliefs.
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@texjohnson9208 Your question is absurd. As has already been pointed out to you Obama isn't running.
As for who America decides to vote for in 2020 for president, I don't know, that is a long way off and it has a lot more to do with who can make the best empty platitudes of "making America great again" which is all you a message of "love, peace, and unity" is. People like me care about policy, priorities, and trust and you should to.
You also shouldn't be over romanticizing the Obama presidency because, like I said, if was actually about "love, peace, and unity" the country wouldn't have elected an orange clown after him. That man of "peace" more than doubled the number of wars we were in and failed to get us out of the wars he said he would.
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Michael Gardner, don't forget Jeremiah 19:9, "And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them."
and Peter 2:18, "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward."
and Matt 23: 33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?"
But all of this is irrelevant since there is no more proof of the god you worship than any other religions god.
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JR regarding, "zilch that is racist" Never have I said or implied that you have but it must be nice to cry about me doing something that I'm not doing.
Regarding, "immediately dismissing it." I don't immediately dismiss the stupid shit you say. I read them. Realize that what you say is devoid of logic, reason, and intelligence and then I dismiss them after giving it far more consideration that it deserves.
Regarding, "civil discussion." I assure you I am capable of civil discussion but concede that I can also be a super huge dick. I have little to no tolerance for people that are not only stupid but are making sure to try and make the world as dumb as themselves.
Regarding, "I love people like you" I can't stand people like you. You literally make the world dumber when you open your mouth.
Regarding, "You're honestly intolerable." You mean you weren't being honest when you said you loved me? I'm crushed. Seriously thou, and you may or not have already realized this but I find you intolerable for all the reasons I've already given.
Regarding, "sociopathic baby killer." Do you not realize what strawmanning is? I've never suggested anything of the kind. You are likely a much nicer person than I am. That isn't my problem with you. My problem is that you are making the world stupider when you say the shit you do.
Regarding, "look in the mirror." I get this bullshit argument a lot. Yup. I'm a dick. At least you get to have that to fall back on because if you had to talk solely about the topic at hand you might realize how dumb everything you say is.
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Steven regarding, "Healthcare quality will drop if you universalize it and make it free- this is inarguable." You are baffled why people don't take you seriously but let's look at this stupid as fuck shit. Not only do you want to present your stupid as fuck opinion but you go the extra mile to prove what a fucking moron you are by trying to present your dumb as fuck opinion as fact. Well... let me prove that you are at least wrong about it being "inarguable." No doubt you are going to ignore the evidence I present and stick to your stupid as fuck opinion because ultimately these facts won't matter to you but, at the very least, even you should be able to admit it isn't "inarguable" like you so absurdly say.
If universal health care would inarguable drop in quality then Canada wouldn't have longer health expectancy. No doubt you will try to excuse this with americans eating too many big macs. But that doesn't explain why Canada's infant mortality rate is also superior to the US. That is Canada, with SUPERIOR health care to the US in those very important metrics.
And the mechanic as to why such a thing might be isn't hard to understand unless, like you, you are willfully ignorant of the obvious problem with health insurance providers being so greatly incentivized to provide lesser care if it means their CEO can make an extra buck and buy a bigger yacht. They are not in the business to provide care. They are in the business to MAKE MONEY. So if they can cut corners to make more money the will and do.
Now I don't give a fuck about the stupid fucking rationalizations and excuses you make for these facts because I know you don't give a fuck about them. I want to show why, at the very fucking least, it is arguable. People get to have their own opinions. They don't get to have their own facts. And people like you, who think they get to have their own facts, and who demonstrate they don't actually know what reality looks like, have opinions that are not be taken seriously. You are a fucking joke. Society hates you. And you make the world a worse place by breathing.
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Regarding, "intoxicated driving" There is no evidence that supports this being a problem. Fatal car accidents have actually gone down in Colorado since it became legal.
Regarding, "non-consensual sexual behavior" What? You think people are more likely to rape on weed? You can't be serious.
Regarding, "addiction" It's not that kind of a drug. There is no evidence that it creates any sort of physical addiction. Psychological addiction but that just isn't what people think of when they mean addiction when it comes to other drugs like tobacco, alcohol, and opioids.
Regarding, "if it means not contributing to more of those issues." There is zero evidence that any of any of your fears are caused with legalization and plenty of evidence to the contrary. If any of that stuff were actually going to happen it already would be happening in places like Colorado. But it isn't and if you want to make your claims you need to provide some kind of evidence. It doesn't exist thou. At least not in any sort of credible way.
Regarding, "I’ve had 2 people in my high-school class effectively have their lives ruined because they couldn’t get though school, because they were constantly high on weed." Here's fact... feel free to look it up. High school students are less likely to use weed when it's legal and regulated. I also don't care for anecdotal evidence. If what you say is actually true you might want to consider that the kids you are talking about had problems that had nothing to do with weed... like shitty parents for example.
Regarding, "very small risk of overdose" More like non existent. Aspirin has a "very small risk of overdose," and it is far, far, far more likely to kill someone. It's not even close.
We have enough labs to have tested what happens when weed is legal. Check them out. Study what is actually happening in Colorado. It should alleviate your concerns if you are intellectually honest about the facts.
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@girletherial Regarding, "Nope." Too bad for you then. Good luck being an idiot.
Regarding, "I just get sick of all the naive Warren bashers" So it's naïve to point out the many, many problems with her? For example that she will happily take legalized bribes in the general, that her record on the military is attroutious, that she didn't support a progressive like Sanders in 2016, that she didn't want to run in 2016 against Hillary but wants to run in 2020 against Sanders, that she was Republican in the 90s when she was in her 40s but now wants to claim she is a progressive which are completely opposite political ideologies, that she didn't support her fellow "natives" at the DAPL protests. And more. Is that me being naïve to you? Because if it is it's only because you are the idiot that you are.
Regarding, "and Bernie supporters. Bernie is actually my second choice" So you don't like his supporters? But you would be one if not for Warren? And that's what you have a problem with? That's what you care about? And not all the real word problems that Bernie is fighting? God damn... this is why I never wanted to address your shit intelligently. It's remarkable just how terrible the things you say are. It's tough to really do just to all the ways everything you say is terrible.
Regarding, "Warren is just smarter and more strategic" Citation need for dumb claims. Actually please don't try to justify the things you say and instead change the things you say. Sanders is the amendment king, who just helped force Amazon singlehandedly to raise their minimum wage. Who is pretty much single handedly winning the debate on health care in a world where even a majority of REPUBLICANS (you know, like WARren) support medicare for all while that topic doesn't even manage to make WARren's webpage.
Regarding, "Bernie is still the leader of the Progressive movement" So you aren't a progressive or you would be supporting him. Are you too a 90s republican? If so then yeah... warren is for you. If you are a progressive like me then Bernie is the clear choice and it isn't even close.
Regarding, "But the best movement leaders don't make the best country leaders" You really like saying things but back up absolutely nothing that you say.
Regarding, "Bernie makes people angry." Good. If you don't look at what the US is doing around the globe and you don't get pissed... well... you should be. It should piss Warren off. Instead she happily votes to give Trump extra money for bombs. How that fact doesn't piss you off makes me question your morality and your humanity.
Regarding, "We see with Trump how that works out." Your comments are just remarkably dumb. Really. No joke. As if the problem with Trump and his supporters are their anger with the status quo. It's not the corruption or the policy, it's that think total idiots. Why the fuck did I even attempt to respond this intelligently. What a fucking waste of my time.
Regarding, "Warren gives people hope!" No me. You know who does? Bernie. Because he can actually be trusted to fight the good fight while Warren can be trusted to roll over and cave to the establishment.
But good luck with all the stupid shit you have been saying. Please go work for warren if you are going to continue to be an idiot. At least get paid for being dumb if you can.
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I want universal health care, college accessible and good education, to reign in the military industrial complex, peace, a living wage, the environment protected, criminal justice reform, the banks broken up, glass-steagal brought back, net neutrality, immigration reform and accessible, money out of politics, equal opportunity for all among other things just like Hitler would. I'm just your typical zionist demon, white supremacist I guess. I'd like to think you people are being sarcastic but you aren't are you.
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Taskmaster regarding, "All deals aren't the same." Yeah. I know. That is kinda the point. For example the non deal we have a the moment is huge step backwards. It was literally the only thing about the Obama administration I was happy about.
"I've answered your question." No. You didn't. I asked for better. You gave the same from 10 years ago.
Regarding, "Trumps going at it a different way." How so? Sanctions? Like I said that is not different. That was already done and had worked. And what is the goal? What more do you think Trump could have achieved seeing as how the US got everything they could possibly get. There's no better deal to be made. Unless all you care about is getting rid of Obama stink.
Regarding, "Not like you or I are altering the course of political history, am I right?" Certainly not individually but, for example, Trump supporters overall do and we, as a society, need you to wake up, understand that Trump sucks, and stop supporting him.
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@penpenultra Regarding, "Excuse me for assuming you want people to abstain from the system by voting third party." Your assumption isn't the problem. It's your regurgitation of propaganda that makes it seems as if you only have two options of a giant douche or turd sandwich and that's it.
Regarding, "The reality of the situation is that voting third party will help nobody but you, and not in any meaningful way." There you go again being a tool.
Regarding, "You'll feel better, sure. But you will accomplish nothing; not in this election cycle anyway." Not in this election cycle anyway. Wait... do you mean to tell me that you understand that this might have influence beyond this election while you pretend it can't possibly be of any value at the same time? Sounds about right. You do not seem intellectually honest at all and find myself doubting that you voted 3rd party in 2016. I hope I'm wrong about that.
Regarding, "You make the argument that a Trump presidency would in some way drive the people to move left." And not in some sort of nonsensical way.
Regarding, "I would argue the opposite." In a nonsensical way.
Regarding, "The overton window was very clearly shifted right since his arrival in office." Meanwhile, in reality, progressive issues such as M4A, criminal justice reform, and more are growing in popularity DURING trumps presidency.
Regarding, "he ultimately gave way for people like Bernie" Obama's failure gave us Trump. You don't elect an orange clown if you are happy with things.
Bernie was always there. Giving Obama credit for him is asinine.
I'm having an impossible time taking you seriously.
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@E-damnn Regarding, "They’ll just blame it on Russia or something." While this is true more people will wake to their rot despite their best efforts to deflect blame. There is a reason I spoke of it as, "some sort of small reckoning." I know they aren't going to go down without a fight.
Regarding, "If Biden wins, we can say that “it only took a pandemic, economic depression, and mass unrest and growing racial tensions to get Biden elected” " You can say that all you want but I'm not sure how the country would care. Biden would be in office, things are going to be shit and the left will blamed for the shitshow. Rhetoric doesn't mean much compared to that.
Regarding, "promote racial tensions" Few people, if any, are more responsible FOR RACIAL TENSION in america because of his racist crime bill that led to mass incarceration.
Regarding, "atleast we’ll get social issues" Let's say I agreed with this, and I don't, at what cost? Trump 2.0 remember? How about you try to convince me biden won't led to trump 2.0. And good luck with that. I have every reason to think that is where this goes.
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@E-damnn Regarding, "What? That’s not my point. I was responding to bluebelle51 with that last part." You were strawmanning. No one loves trump. No one is acting like trump is good. But you acting like it which is strawmanning and crazy disingenuous.
Regarding, "Their point was that Biden would be apocalyptic" Yeah.. that biden is bad.
Regarding, "I responded by saying that trump was MORE apocalyptic" Oh... more apocalyptic? Like degrees matter when that is the topic. It's deflection from the topic at hand and the topic was biden no matter how much you want to make it about trump.
Regarding, "their point was invalid." You made Biden being terrible invalid? Really? Well done on magically making biden being terrible unimportant. /s
Regarding, "Biden administration would be much better at handling COVID" Meh. If you expect anything other than incompetence from biden you are kidding yourself even if he would likely be better in the more unimportant superficial ways.
Regarding, "wouldn’t force the country to re-open while cases are rising" Really? Nothing will fundamentally change biden wouldn't do this? Even if his big money donors that he answers to told him to?
Regarding, "You people always assume that I assume that you like trump" You are deflecting by bringing up trump when the topic biden. Just because trump is terrible, which he is, does not make biden better or have anything to do with him really. You need to be able to talk about biden without having to even mention trumps name. It's just like the trump fans who have to mention biden, or hillary, or pelosi to deflect from their clown. In that case it's about trump... not democrats.
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BartJ583 Regarding, "Why does it upset you that Warren voted yes on the military budget?" What an asinine question. The US was already spending as much as the next 9 countries combined. I guess I didn't think spending as much as the next 11 was really necessary. That raise for the department of offense that she voted for was more than enough to pay for Sanders proposal to pay for college for americans. But that plan was deemed "unaffordable" and "pie in the sky" by the corporate media. Why doesn't it upset you that she voted for it is a far better question.
Regarding, "Do you understand what a "no" vote would have meant? It would have meant that in the debates, Trump could call her "unpatriotic; not willing to give our soldiers the best equipment they can get."" It was for literally more money than even he wanted. And if you think enabling the MIC because of trump is a good reason to enable the MIC you are lost. Those simply are not progressive values.
Regarding, "Remember, most Americans are militaristic." Meanwhile, in reality, we live in a nation with severe war fatigue and a population that is in favor of spending our wealth here as opposed to in foreign nations.
Regarding, "This would cost her a lot of votes." Sanders voted against it and he continues to crush trump in every poll. Furthermore I care first and foremost about doing the right thing and so should you. Building bombs to get votes is pretty piss poor "morality."
Regarding, "As for taking bribes - i don't give a fuck as long as she doesn't do her donor's bidding." LMFAO. Why would you think she wouldn't do their bidding after taking their money? Do you think the rich and powerful tend to give bribes if they didn't think they were buying something? She is hypocrite. She is campaigning on not taking that money during the primary but she admits that "principle" is only for the primary. Which doesn't really make it a principle now does it.
Regarding, "It seems that this does not occur to people like you, that a candidate can accept campaign donations without actually selling out." It seems that this does not occur to people like you, that you have no logical reason to think they aren't selling out when accepting those legalized bribes because ultimately they are legalized bribes. Who you accept this type of "rational" from a trump supporter?
Regarding, "As for running against Bernie - she is not." Um... of course she is. She is running against literally everyone. And the same can be said of Bernie. For you to suggest otherwise is crazy.
Regarding, "You still haven't tried to find out about these two prior to 2015, have you." Clearly I haven't even thou I cite her being a republican. Do you generally think of progressives as people who were republicans, who enable the MIC and who love legalized bribes? I don't.
Regarding, "She was Bernie's workwife in 2013/14." What a meaningless statement and pathetic way to deflect from my substantive objections.
Regarding, "Don't get me wrong - I am really glad that so many people who paid zero attention to politics before 2015 are now supporting progressives. But know your place." LMFAO. Your comments are remarkably stupid. It's like you have never paid attention to politics and the only info you get is from the corporate media.
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Regarding, "America has more than 320 million people. No country with more than 300 million people has universal healthcare. None." The number of people in a country is irrelevant. The fact that America has 320 million people means that there are 320 million people to help pay for it.
Regarding, "When it comes to medical innovation, the United States is the world leader." There is nothing about health care being privatized that has anything to do with this. American can still innovate medicine and provide it to everyone at the same time.
Regarding, "with 57 percent of that coming from private industry." That private industry is profiting BILLIONS, every year, off of sick people. So what that they paid for some of this. People are still going to try and take care of the sick, as they should even without a for profit health industry that gouges us and whose sole purpose is to make money, not care for the sick.
Regarding, " I do believe we have to find a way to get affordable healthcare to every single American." I don't even know what to say about this. I find this hard to believe since you seem to think, at the same time, that doing so is the devil.
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Adkins regarding, "You didn't explain anything new." No. I didn't. I never said I did. That is why I think you are fucking moron working against progress and I have little tolerance for you.
Regarding, "To cure homelessness... (stupid point)... Do you think this is a good idea?" No. How about you try to stay on point instead of trying to change the conversation.
Regarding, "the government would seek to limit spending by forcing down payments to doctors and pharmaceutical companies" You are quick to point out your hypothetical point seem oblivious to the actual fact that private health care industries sole purpose is to make money. That isn't hypothetical like your BS talking point. A good government... like the type I want and would work for would be willing to pay health care industry providers what they are worth. They just wouldn't be willing to gouge the public the way the Martin Shreli's of the world are currently allowed to.
Regarding, "while scrutinizing treatments for cost-effectiveness." Yeah... like that isn't currently happening with the for profit private health industry. So your argument to not progress is because of something that ALREADY FUCKING HAPPENS might happen.
Regarding, "profit motives always lead to bigger cost effectiveness and control." Except this is complete bullshit because of facts. Americans pay far more for health care than anyone else in the world and it isn't even fucking close. Are you intentionally lying or just stupid?
Regarding, "There will be no patient flexibility" Patient flexibility? Are you kidding? I talk about millions uninsured. I talk about the fact that costs are out of control. I talk about results that are not as good as the rest of the world and you are talking about flexibility whatever the fuck that is suppose to mean. What? The flexibility to die if I get sick? The flexibility to go bankrupt if I get sick? Sane people don't give a fuck about this. If you are worried the government is going to be picking your doctor for you or some bullshit then I don't really know what to say other than the fact of the I currently can only go to a certain number of doctors. I can't, under my current insurance plan, go out of network. So, again, you are scared of shit that is already going on.
Regarding, "We have to fix the healthcare system but the evidence is clear govt run healthcare is not the perfect answer." There is no perfect answer and I'm not interested in waiting for one because it will never happen. The fact of the matter is that single payer is better than what we have because of the easily provable facts I've already mentioned (number insured, cost, outcomes).
Regarding, "You guys are hell bent on turning this country into a socialist paradise." Just generalized bullshit smear. I am talking about one specific issue.... health care. I even said that capitalism is just fine for most everything. But there are exceptions and, again, sick people is one of them. Only soulless fucks and brainwashed morons think getting rich off of sick people is moral and acceptable. But I guess I just think it would be a "socialist paradise" if we made a commitment to treat the sick without bankrupting millions, ignoring millions, and letting some get rich off of a BS provably shit system that is failing despite your obliviousness to it.
Regarding all of your bullshit misplaced nationalism. Just because the USA does it doesn't mean it is good. "What have they achieved?.Have these countries contributed anything to mankind?" No. Nothing. The rest of the world is worthless and only the USA has done anything even though the USA is only about 400 years old.
Regarding, "A space research?" Do you really think only the USA researches space?
Regarding, "world's best schools." As is the case with us you get the best of the best when you are rich. But I dare you to do a quick google search of something like how does the us education compare with the rest of the world. You might be surprised at what you learn.
Regarding, "I am trying to find if anything good about these nations.I couldn't." How about I give you one thing that is specific to what we are talking about.... THEY PROVIDE HEALTH INSURANCE TO THEIR PEOPLE WHILE WE LET MILLIONS GO WITHOUT INSURANCE.
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Trey regarding, "Because it's neither of the two." All evidence suggests otherwise.
Regarding, "Universal background checks do require a universal gun registry," You just repeating stupid shit over and over doesn't make it anymore true. And even if this were true, which it absolutely 100 percent isn't, why would this be so fucking important? Does the existence of the DMV also make you a slave or some other stupid shit because cars are registered?
Regarding, "Lying on a background check carries harsh penalties, and there are thousands of people who get denied a gun because of their background checks." You say this shit like it is relevant to the facts I've brought up. This does nothing to address the fact that background checks are fucking worthless when someone is able to go home with a gun before the process is completed.
Regarding, "This gamer..." Spoiler alert... the system is never going to be perfect. We will never be able to eliminate gun violence and gun crime. But those facts are pathetic excuses to maintain the status quo where mass murder is far more common then elsewhere in the "civilized" world. And I put civilized in quotes not because I question their civility, but ours.
Regarding, "Per capita the U.S. has less mass shootings than a lot of other industrialized nations leading that chart is not the U.S. but Norway, hell the U.S. isn't even in the top 10." This sounds like total and utter bullshit pulled from your ass. Even if it is true it does nothing to mitigate facts such as, the US has 5 percent of the world's population but over 30 percent of the global mass shooters. And gun homicide rates are 25 times higher in the US than other high income countries... countries that are just as free as the US to people who aren't morons.
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Regarding, "I agree that Bernie needs to run as a Democrat in order to win." I don't think he needs them. I just think it would be the best thing for the country. If he won as an independent I think both parties oppose him, nothing changes, and then everything goes to back to the status quo after he is gone. If he wins as a democrat he could, if nothing else, implement party reforms from the inside that would leave lasting change. We desperately need at least one major party that represents the people and currently we don't.
Regarding, "At this point I am not really even sure he will run again," If I were a gambling man, and I am a gambling man, I bet the house he runs as long as he is healthy.
Regarding, "It is the only hope we have against this President." There are plan Bs but none are as good as him in my opinion. I do not, in any way, fear Trump in 2020. Literally anyone other than Hillary can beat him. The most important election in 2020 is going to be the primary. We need a true progressive to win and not a corporate stooge like Harris or Booker. I get the feeling Maddow is going to love Harris.
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jaime regarding, "I never said anything about social security," You didn't? I could have swore you said, "socialists confiscatory taxes are just a new tipe of communism" Social security is socialism. You can tell, in part because of the name.
Regarding, "are you ok with government taking your wealth through taxation" Um. Yeah. That is how government works. That is how we pay for roads, schools, public officials, the military and much much more.
Regarding, "even when you know all the waste and fraud going on in the government" That is why I want someone leading government who is going to actually do something about this. That is why I want a President who will reign in the military industrialied complex. We spend as much as about the next 8 countries combined on "defense," (and most all are allies). Imagine how much we could save if we spent "only" as much as the next 4.
Regarding, "just so they take all that money into their pockets like whats happening in latin american socialist countries which you "forgot" to mention." I didn't forget to mention it. I just chose not to engage your BS arguments. This isn't latin america. You misunderstand government and what Bernie's democratic socialism is. I don't have the time or energy to educate you. I do not think nuance is your thing.
Regarding, "Trump did the right thing not debating Sanders, that would have been free publicity for sanders" Even you don't believe your own BS. Why should Trump have cared about giving Sanders free publicity if he would have crushed him in the debate? Shouldn't he have wanted to get that free publicity himself since he would have won? Even you don't believe your own BS do you?
Regarding, "If people would love Bernie, he would have got the popular vote in the primaries... he didn't." You ignore the media bias. You ignore the DNC rigging the game. You ignore the "democratic" party not allowing independents to vote. You ignore exit polls that indicate massive election fraud. You are an idiot.
Regarding, "You just don't want to accept reality," That is funny coming from you. Thank you. I need a good laugh in these sad times.
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Shasta regarding, "I don't see how what your saying makes it alright" I'm not saying it "alright." I'm just saying that in a world with lots of real problems and real important problems illegal immigration is not high on my priorities list especially when, as I've already pointed out, the legal immigration system is broken. We are a nation of immigrants afterall.
In a country with lots and lots of problems they are not one of them. Rather they are used to be demonized and scapegoated for problems that have absolutely nothing to do with them.
Regarding, "I have no problem with people coming" Do you speak out about the broken legal immigration system or do you just spend your time speaking out about illegal immigrants?
Regarding, "Im sure everyone has their excuses but it's a law." If you were living in another country, wanted to live here, knew the legal immigration system was broken, and thought your only way to live here would be to do so illegally are you sure you wouldn't break that law? Yes it's not right but it also just isn't a big deal. I get it. I guess you don't.
Regarding, "A lot of other countries including the ones we border with have stricter laws than us." I don't let the rest of the world be my moral compass for me and neither should you.
Regarding, "I don't find it to be okay because it's "understandable"" Fine. Don't. But at least understand why some do it and at least understand that they are not a major problem in a country with lots of major problems. In an ideal world they would exist, neither would speeders. Ultimately neither is a big deal thou when you look at the big picture.
Regarding, "not going to pretend I'm holier than thou like you seem to be." I'm not trying to pretend I am. I'm not native to this land. My ancestors came here from elsewhere in search of a better way of life. I'm not going to close the door behind me just because I got in.
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bandholm regarding, "True, but aren't the Senat and House part of government?" Um. yes the Senate and House are part of the government. You people are really losing me with the points you are trying to make. Have I done something to suggest I didn't think they were part of the government?
Regarding, "Aren't they the ones to make the laws and such?" Yes. But again, that isn't the point. The point is to have a discussion as to what kind of a government we should have. Should we have a process, like we do now, where people voting in huge states like NY, Cali, and Texas have meaningless votes. Should we have a process where the person who gets less votes is allowed to win? Or should we have a system where everyone gets one vote and they all count the same. That is the discussion we are having. Not how the system would be gone about being changed.
Regarding, "And if they are, why should stats then have special privilege over/instead of the people?" Huh?
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Zach regarding, "you clearly are unwilling to even consider other peoples points since, you're still being insulting and dismissive." Me being insulting as dismissive has nothing to do with me considering other people's points of view. You might want to consider that I have considered other points of view and I'm insulting and dismissive of them because I've concluded they are dumb, irrational, illogical points and that is why I'm insulting and dismissive of them.
Regarding, "As a matter of fact I'm going to keep this super short" If you wanted to make it short maybe you should have avoided saying repeatedly how short you were going to make it.
Regarding, "dealing with people like you is cancerous." I concede I am very often a dick but that has nothing to do with my points.
Regarding, "yep the EC doesn't represent the majority of the population even though over 40% didn't fucking vote" We can't really talk or address the people who didn't vote. That is on them. I am only interested in talking about the people who voted. They are the ones that have expressed their voices. And they should be heard, equally, fairly, and none should count more than others.
Regarding, "My entire point of the 57% was to point out that you left out a decent point of information" It is not a decent point of information, as I've already pointed out, because you talk about those 57 percent of people as if they think the same. They don't. Those populations don't vote as a block, like the EC represents them. That 57 percent is nuanced.
Regarding, "Instead you used it to insult me repeatedly. Also, I don't expect every voter to have voted the same." You don't expect every voter to have voted the same but you talk about the 57 percent as if they do.
Regarding, "I called for changes to the EC in a previous post but, you seemed to have forgotten that." This thread is crazy long. And it isn't the only one that I've talked about the EC. Forgive me for not remember every nuanced detail you have made in the past. I don't even read entire posts before I start commenting on them. I start with the first point you make, I address it, then I move onto the next. It is hardly perfect but it is how I do things.
Regarding, "I never claimed to be brilliant just above average" The problem I have with this is the fact that you bother to bring it up. It doesn't seem, at all, relevant to the conversation unless you think people should get more or less say depending on their intelligence. I don't. The dumbest person in the country's vote should count as much as Stephen Hawkings.
Regarding, "I fall short of the genius level. I'm sorry you find that offensive somehow?" It's not offensive. Just totally irrelevant. The offensive part is that I'm having to address this topic again. Again, it has nothing to do with the conversation.
Regarding, "I never said I wanted their opinions heard less," It certainly seemed implied.
Regarding, "just that I didn't want the average of the public representing me. The average of the public is what gets voted in under your system. Please acknowledge this." I am barely able to make sense of this. "The average of the public"? I've made my position clear. I think everyone should get a vote, all votes should count the same, and the most votes should win. If this means the average of the public to you then yes, that's what I want.
Regarding, "my entire point is it's an idea worth saving." I disagree. I think it is garbage. It is overly convoluted for a reason and none of those reasons are good. Simple is good when it comes to elections. Most votes wins seems like common sense to me and I see no reason to make it hard. Again the only reason you would mess with that simple concept is if you think and want some votes to be more important than others.
Regarding, "You would just take us back to a different system with it's own flaws" I'm pretty sure I've said this before... there is no perfect system. There is no system where politicians are going to Alaska and Wyoming to have rallies. There is only perfect fairness. That is a system where everyone, including people in Alaska, Wyoming or where ever get the same say, an equal voice. That is a system where politicians have a reason to try and get every vote because ever vote matters. Currently every vote does not matter.
Regarding, "accepting the lesser of two evils is still fucking evil" Sorry but a system where everyone gets to vote and the most votes wins is hardly evil. An evil system to me is a system where the least votes wins.
Regarding, "If you recall I wanted to have a system where a president got at minimum 55% of the EC after it's proportionally delegated. Again you seem to have forgotten that." You got me. I didn't recall that. In my defense it was quite forgettable. You are just proposing a different system where votes are not counted the same therefore it is inherently wrong.
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charley regarding, "You sure got some high ass standards dude" Yes. I do. We are talking about the most powerful position in the world. It seems to me we should have very high standards for it.
Regarding, "which is why we have Trump in the first place" We have Trump because the DNC rigged the primary, because Hillary Clinton sucks balls and worked her entire life against the interests of the people, because the people realize they are getting fucked over, want change, are willing to go to extraordinary lengths to get it, because of Trump voters, because the corporate media gave him BILLIONS in free media, and because over 40 percent of eligible voters didn't vote. You know what absolutely didn't create Trump? High standards.
Regarding, "you have the right to vote whichever way you want" Thank you. Your approval means everything to me, even when stating the obvious.
Regarding, "But politics has always been this way." Not exactly. It is getting worse. We used to have candidates that represented the people. Today we only have candidates that represent corporations and big money and when a decent candidate like Bernie comes along the entire establishment, including the "democratic" party does everything in their power to smear and crush them.
Regarding, "You're never gonna have the perfect candidate." Again, no shit. It isn't about perfection but it is about having standards. You know carney workers and their signs that say "you need to be so tall to ride"? Well I think of myself as having a sign as a voter that says, "you need to be at least so decent to get my vote." We should all have one. Sadly many don't. Many are content to pick between a douche and a turd. They are part of the problem rather than being part of the solution.
Regarding, "People like Bernie are extremely rare" No. They really aren't. They are just rare for politicians and even more rare as members of the major parties.
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Warrior regarding, "build a 3rd party," I think that we need to support 3rd parties for 2 reasons. 1 it is the escape plan should the "democratic" party have learned nothing from what is an embarrassing defeat and we do need to jump ship for good. 2 it is our leverage to help force them to change. I'm not interested in building a party but rather supporting and growing the Green Party which I see as supporting progressive values without the corporate poison and greed infecting the "democratic" party.
Regarding, "I'm not so sure that this is the answer just yet. Time will tell, and I'm certainly torn on that" I very much agree.
Regarding, "building a 3rd party movement seems like a much steeper uphill battle than the already-uphill battle of taking the Democratic Party back from corporatist neoliberals" Again I agree. I was very dismayed that Jill only got the vote she did. I really wanted and expected her to get to 5 percent. Maybe I was overestimating the public's competence.
Regarding, "It must be done carefully and deliberately," There is going to be plenty of push back. You can see it already with how the establishment is unwilling to accept any blame and instead make excuses for losing.
Regarding, "it's a bit alarming to me to see the degree of purification I'm seeing on the left in this moment." I wonder if I might be guilty of this. There are so many people that I used to like that I can't stand now. Bill Maher, John Oliver, Rachel Maddow and all of MSNBC, even Elizabeth Warren.
Regarding, "Warren and Sanders are beautifully positioned to fight effectively for us" Warren could still win my trust back but she has a lot of work to do to get it. Had she endorsed Sanders early this past election may have gone down quite different. I prefer Tulsi Gabbard because of her willingness to lead on the issue and support Sanders at great cost to herself and her position in the party. That demonstrated great leadership to me while Warren demonstrated cowardice to me. Again, she could win me back over but she has her work cut out for her to do it.
Regarding, "I think it's in our best interest to work with that." I hope that Sanders is healthy in 4 years. I do not see how the party could stop him the way they did this go around. The party can change but it will talk someone like him to do it.
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Regarding, "that's the stance that intelligent people take." Yes. Intelligent people pick their battles. I don't have the time, energy, or desire to continue fact checking all your bullshit. Especially because even when I do prove you wrong it never does any good.
Regarding, "Run from the facts" And you say shit like this. You are a real mixed bag. I want to be angry with you but when it isn't infuriating it is funny.
Regarding, "Here's a fact for you to ponder upon." You are a completely discredit source. When you say this I can assume the truth is, "Here's a lie for you to ponder upon." You don't have facts. You have bullshit, propaganda, and distortions. Time and again I've told you how you are lying. You are the kid that cried wolf at this point. Even if (likely by accident) you said something that was true I'm right to just think you are lying at this point seeing as how that is all you do.
When I said that I wasn't sure if you are paid, stupid, or a troll I have an opinion. I'd be willing to bet the house you are being paid to say stupid things and mislead people. That said get a real job. Something that doesn't involve lying to people.
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Erik regarding, "That was people within her campaign discussing it" That's way different than the queen. Birds of a feather flock together.
If you think Hillary has any intention of putting people on the court who are not corporate friendly I assure you you are being naive and duped.
Good luck with the queen. I envy you in a way. It must be nice to think your candidate still has a chance to win (even though nobody should want her to win). I've already lost because of morons and sheep like you who are ok supporting dogshit that don't give a flying fuck about the people.
Jimmy brought a good Malcolm X quote up before. He says, "If Johnson had been running all by himself, he would not have been acceptable to anyone. The only thing that made him acceptable to the world was that the shrewd capitalists, the shrewd imperialists, knew that the only way people would run toward the fox would be if you showed them a wolf. So they created a ghastly alternative. And it had the whole world, including people who call themselves Marxists, hoping that Johnson would beat Goldwater." Ironically Hillary Clinton was a "Goldwater Girl" at the time. Malcolm X goes on to say, "I have to say this, those that claim to be enemies of the system were on their hands and knees waiting for Johnson to get elected because he is suppose to be a man of peace. And at that very moment Johnson had troops invading the Congo and south Vietnam. He even has troops in areas where other imperialists have withdrawn. Peace corps to Nigeria, mercenaries to the Congo."
Good luck with the fox. At least you aren't voting for the wolf huh? Fucking sheep.
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Michael Duncecap regarding, "but you will waste a vote on some one who is polling at 1-2% and you think she has a chance to win." No. I don't think she has a chance to win. Voting isn't about trying to pick the winner and, again, only a mental midget would think it is. Voting is about expressing my values, priorities, and ethics. Jill Stein represents me and my interests. That is why I vote for her. I don't vote for either Trump or Hillary because neither of them represent me. I don't want either of them to be president. It really is not hard to understand unless you are a fucking moron. But everyone who isn't dumb as fuck already realizes you are a fucking moron when you say you are voting for a corrupt POS like Hillary Clinton.
I'm going to leave with a quote you will certainly ignore, "If Johnson had been running all by himself, he would not have been acceptable to anyone. The only thing that made him acceptable to the world was that the shrewd capitalists, the shrewd imperialists, knew that the only way people would run toward the fox would be if you showed them a wolf. So they created a ghastly alternative. And it had the whole world, including people who call themselves Marxists, hoping that Johnson would beat Goldwater." Malcolm X (Side note, ironically Hillary Clinton was a "Goldwater Girl.")
Malcolm X goes on to say, "I have to say this, those that claim to be enemies of the system were on their hands and knees waiting for Johnson to get elected because he is suppose to be a man of peace. And at that very moment Johnson had troops invading the Congo and south Vietnam. He even has troops in areas where other imperialists have withdrawn. Peace corps to Nigeria, mercenaries to the Congo."
Good luck voting for the fox. At least you aren't voting for the wolf.
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lucky regarding, "totally against both parties." You want to be against both major parties? Fine. They both suck. Neither represent the people.
I wasn't talking about supporting parties. I was talking about supporting people. You should be supporting good people regardless of a party label. There are good people who think the best way of getting the change the country deserves is by working to overtake the party. You are doing yourself and the causes you claim to care about a disservice by refusing to support people who want to use different tactics than you would prefer even if their goals are the same.
Regarding, "You didn't see them objecting to upping our defense by over $700 billion no problem for you, right?" You talk about parties like they are people. They are not. There were some people, like Sanders, who voted against that bill. That is what is important to me. Not the party label he affiliates himself with.
Regarding, "You're a fool how many times are you going to get played?" You mistakenly think I am looking to work the oligarchy. I'm not. I'm trying to take over their party.
Regarding, "if you put your hand on a flame and it burned your hand how many times are you going to put your hand back on that flame?" You seem to think it is more important to try to punish the flame than think it is important to do what is best to get what you want.
Regarding, "it has nothing to do with party." Clearly it has everything to do with party when you care more about a person's party label than about the person. What you advocate is no different than what partisan dems and partisan republicans do. They care about party labels and ignore all the important things that they should care about.
Regarding, "you're falling for the party shit not me." Clearly you were not listening to me. I don't care about parties. That is your thing. I care about people.
Regarding, "It doesn't matter how good the person might be who is running if they run in the Democratic Party." How can you not realize how stupid this sounds? Seriously. Please take some time and reflect on this statement.
Regarding, "I adore both of them but they will be chewed up and spit out if they stay in the party" You adore them both but you are kicking them to the curb because you have bitten before. You sound like a person who says they will never fall in love again because they were hurt by someone in the past.
Regarding, "nothing will ever change in our favor if someone goes into that party." So, if only, those couple people would call themselves some other meaningless label that would change something? It wouldn't. What is important, which you clearly are blind to, is that the objective is to get as many good people in government as possible and their party labels are not at all what is important. Currently there are only a handful. We need more and I don't care what party label they wear.
Regarding, "Do you seriously think our politicians make our laws here?" Not really. How far off topic do you need to go?
Regarding, "The Dems..." You talk about them as if they are a monolith. You talk about them as if they all think the same. You talk about them as if they are all the same. They clearly are not and you sound silly and being lazy when you think you can know everything about someone because of a stupid party label.
Regarding, "Wake the fuck up its because of people like you who keep voting for the same damn party and thinking something wonderful is going to happen." Wake the fuck up, its because of people like you who keep thinking in terms of only party labels that we got into this mess in the first place. Stop thinking something wonderful is going to happen when you have no plan for winning. Winning elections isn't everything but I assure you it is pretty fucking important.
Regarding, "It took both parties to get us where we are today I guess you're happy being governed by oligarchs." Yes it did take both parties and I'm not happy being governed by oligarchs. It's just that I am willing to support the people fighting against the oligarchs even if they have the audacity to call themselves a democrat. It really is not that hard to understand.
Regarding, "So you keep voting for the Dems you keep voting for the Republican you keep taking it up the ass not me!" So what is your idea of not taking it in the ass? The ability to feel good about not voting for either major party while they still fuck you just like they fuck everyone else?
You care more about punishing the parties than you care about people. Wake the fuck up and stop being such a bitch. Act like you care about the things you care about instead of what you actually do which is caring about punishing the parties.
I'm going to put this all in caps because it is important and you really need to understand it. PEOPLE ARE WHAT IS IMPORTANT! Stop focusing on parties.
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Steve regarding, ""better him than Hillary" might have some merit (because)..." My favorite part about Trump being president versus Hillary is that, because of it, there is hope for an actual progressive like Sanders becoming President in 2020. That said, all talk of who is better is ultimately irrelevant, mute, and pointless at this point because it no longer matters who would "have been better." Trump IS president. Period. Who would be better Trump or used toilet paper is now just as relevant a question... aka utterly meaningless. (that said I prefer the used TP)
That said it does have a tiny, tiny bit of validity as a mental exercise but that is NEVER how it is brought up. The people who bring it up EXCLUSIVELY bring it up to try and justify and excuse Trump doing fucking terrible shit. To them it literally doesn't fucking matter what Trump does while in office. What do Trump supporters think about tax break blowjobs to the rich? He's better than Hillary. What do Trump supporters think of a Goldman Sachs cabinet? He's better than Hillary. Shit Pai as FCC chair? He's better than Hillary. He could whip his tiny orange dick out and rub it across their face and their response? He's better than Hillary.
That is how it is brought up. ALWAYS. It is fucking infuriating, it is fucking sad, and I have no patience for it. So sorry for jumping over you for elaborating about it. You seem cool. Unlike Pandora Rice who, in all honesty, can lick my taint. It's better than Hillary afterall so it should be fine.
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@imnotmike regarding, "because you ain't helping." And you lying about shit is? Sorry if the truth hurts.
Regarding, "But Bernie may or may not run." There is ZERO good reason to think he won't be.
Regarding, "And even if he does run - what then?" Then we support him. Duh. This isn't rocket science.
Regarding, "What about after Bernie? Who is next?" Holy fuck. This is your concern of yours? What to do about 2024? I don't know. Tulsi Gabbard, Nina Turner and all the people that have the intelligence and willingness to do the right thing and NOT run against Sanders in 2020 because they care more about what is right for the country then what might bring them their own personal glory.
Regarding, "Elizabeth Warren shouldn't have endorsed Bernie in the 2016 election." Um... Yes. She absolutely should have. That is what a person with actual progressive principles was doing in 2016.
Regarding, "She should have run herself." Maybe. But she didn't. And since then she has made choice after choice after choice that spits in the face of progressives and our values.
Regarding, "and then we wouldn't have Trump in the White House. That was her real mistake." Let's agree to disagree about the details but agree to agree that Elizabeth Warren and her actions helped put Trump in office. There is lots, and lots and lots of blame to go around and I don't put her name anywhere near the top of the list but she has some of it and people are right to hold her responsible for it.
Regarding, "She would have mopped the floor with Hillary and Trump." Whatever. This isn't relevant to anything and I don't give a fuck about hypotheticals that have nothing to do with the specific conversation at hand.
Regarding, "The way toxic progressives like yourself go around shitting on progressives" I'm sure you are going to finish this with something reasonable like, by bringing up the facts, fact are our friend right?
Regarding, "you make it pretty much impossible to live up to your standards." Nope. You don't. Why am I not surprised. If you think standards that include things like supporting progressives in their elections, supporting peaceful protestors, and not supporting a budget to give Trump more bombs is "impossible to live up to" then that is only because you fucking suck and the standards that you bother to hold people up to are probably fucking worthless. No doubt you would say the same stupid shit if I had the audacity to mention an inconvenient fact such as Obama more then double the number of wars we are in. And me having a problem with this is having standards that are impossible to live up to.
Regarding, "You sow discord" Oh. Do I? Good. I want people pissed. They should be. But they need to blame the right people and the right people includes people like Warren whether you like it or not. Whether you are willing to admit it or not.
I want discord. But put it where it belongs... with the oligarchy. With the establishment. With the corporate media.
Regarding, "you hurt progressives worse than you hurt corporate dems." As someone who seems keen on propping up corporate dems let's agree to disagree about this.
Regarding, "Corporate democratic voters aren't going to be convinced by your arguments against Cory Booker. They don't care." Holy shit is the random. Cory Booker. Like what the fuck? When did any of this become about Cory Booker. What arguments have I made against Cory Booker? I have no fucking idea what retarded point you are trying to make (that said I still confidently conclude whatever you were trying to say was stupid... but whatever) so I really can't respond intelligently to it.
Regarding, "Is Elizabeth Warren perfect?" Ah yes... this stupid fucking talking point. Because that is what me and my mentioning of specific things where she failed me means... that I require perfection. Meanwhile, in reality I don't require perfection. Meanwhile, in reality I've never used the word for really good reason. Meanwhile, the person that I will be supporting for President, Bernie Sanders, isn't perfect and I can tell you exactly in the ways I have problems with him.
Regarding, "I am not perfect." Thanks for clearing that up not that we needed it. This is an understatement of epic proportions. Can you imagine if we were talking about Hitler and I was talking about specific things I have a problems with and responded to that with this nonsense... the nobody is perfect defense. Do you think that would be a logical argument there? Well it isn't anymore insightful here. It's more like word vomit that makes everyone dumber when they read it.
Regarding, "Elizabeth Warren did not ever support the creation of the Dakota Access Pipeline." No shit. That's probably why I never said anything of the sort. I'm not sure if you are stupid as fuck or are intentionally trying to misrepresent what I'm saying but either way it doesn't speak well of you. The actual words I used were, "turning her back on the DAPL protestors." I shouldn't have to explain to you what this means like you are child but it doesn't mean what you are saying. At best your being an idiot. At worst you are a blatant liar with a warped moral compass.
Regarding, "Just because Elizabeth Warren didn't personally show up in North Dakota to protest" Again you are putting words in my mouth. I could have appeased by something so simple as a statement of support for them when they were having their constitutional rights trampled on.
Regarding, "These are republican talking points. Smear jobs. Fox News 101 bullshit." This is an accurate indication of what you are doing. You have by lying from the first stupid thing you have said and you continue to lie. You suck at life just like all the people you mention.
Regarding, "You're sick, and if you're going to be spreading Fox News propaganda, at least have the decency to go do it as a republican." There is a job for you working at "correct the record" if you don't already work there already with all the stupid shit you have said. In short good luck being retarded.
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"Awakened citizen" regarding, "I'd elaborate but......" BUT YOU CAN'T" See, you think things like this because you are stupid. I was choosing not to respond you to your idiotic bullshit but since you insist I will.
Regarding, "#MAGA" This shit speaks for itself. You are a fucking Trump supporter. Only an epic fucking moron would support that clown.
Regarding, "Bernie knew the whole time and never expected to get the nomination." This is about as intelligent as your statements get. I agree that Bernie didn't expect to get the nomination, at the start, and why should he have. He was down 60 points when he entered the race. But after campaigning, traveling the country, and seeing his support grow I think it because clear that he thought he had a good chance and it energized him. I also think there was no one who was more crushed than him after "losing," but ultimately he took it with class because that is who he is and it was never about him but about his ideas.
Regarding, "It was Hillary's turn and Bernie knew that." Everybody fucking knew that dipshit. The DNC made it clear when over 400 superdelegates came out to support her before any of the peasants were allowed to vote. Still he campaigned, fought hard, and fought for ideas he cares about DESPITE knowing the establishment thought it was Hillary's turn. He didn't pull a Biden like you seem to imply.
Regarding, "Seems like it only serves to support MY position that Bernie knew all along." Anyone with a brain realized the DNC was fucking him over. What is your problem exactly? That he didn't cry about it while they were doing it? That isn't his style nor would it have helped him in any way shape or form. Americans fucking hate anyone who is perceived as whining, even when their whining is justified. Shit even Hillary Clinton faithful had an impossible time supporting their fallen queen on her blame everyone but herself book tour.
Regarding, "he wasn't a whistleblower on this issue" Why do you think Sanders was the first to know on any of the details of the DNCs skullduggery? The DNC is going to go out of their way to try and make sure he is the LAST person to know.
And it isn't Sanders job to tell him how bad he is getting fucked over. I sure as fuck don't need him to tell me how much of the shaft he got because I'm not a fucking moron. And the people that still choose to believe the primary was fair aren't all of a sudden going to see the light because Sanders says he got fucked.
Regarding, "because he was in on it the whole time" It takes a real epic moron with no logic to think that the DNC fucked him over and he was in on it the whole time. Why would they need to fuck him over if he was just one of them? God damn you are stupid.
Regarding, "Bernie was meant to be seen as a defeated adversary for Hillary." The establishment is not nearly as fucking stupid as you. Only you would think this was a good plan because you are a fucking moron.
Regarding, "They wanted to boost her political cred by taking down Bernie in the primaries." The fact that you think this would be a good plan proves how fucking dumb you are. The reason I didn't feel the need to try to address this shit intelligently is because of how fucking retarded it all is. If Bernie Sanders didn't run Hillary Clinton would have won the general. The primary did nothing but expose how corrupt and weak Clinton was. It exposed how corrupt and dirty the DNC was and so people didn't want to support them when the general rolled around. The fact that I need to point out this obvious shit is really something else.
Regarding, "groundswell of Trump support" Trump is fucking hated by anyone with a brain. Most votes "for" Trump were actually votes against Clinton and most votes "for" Clinton were actually votes against Trump. They are rightfully 2 of the most despised people in the country. They are two peas in a fucking pod.
Regarding, "they also didn't see the Sanders supporters coming" If there are no Sanders supporters then why the fuck would they think beating him in the primary was so fucking important? Please don't answer. It is rhetorical. I don't care what you think.
Regarding, "same libtard moron that called me every derogatory political catch phrase in the book" Are you at least smart enough to realize why this sentence is so fucking funny to intelligent people?
Regarding, "saying that the DNC was rigged" No shit it was rigged. I guess this is as smart of a thing as you can say. It is just that everything else you say is painfully stupid.
Regarding, "logic and facts" You wouldn't know logic and facts if they were the names of strippers throwing their tits in your face. You are a mental midget and that is why you are a Trump supporter. He loves the uneducated, like you, for a reason.
Now I don't have time for your stupid shit. No doubt this is going in one ear and out the other for you because you are dumb as fuck. That is partly why I didn't want to bother elaborating on why what everything you said was so fucking stupid. Now go back to loving that orange dick in your ass.
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J Abrams regarding, "You seem to ignore the fact Warren has very little power as a junior senator" I'm not arguing that Warren had great power. You seem to be arguing that I should feel sorry for poor Warren. I don't.
Regarding, "has overachieved given her stature with hearings, policy, and legislation." What evidence to have to back up your claim? A bunch of grandstanding and a bill that was NOTHING but a bandaide on a problem that required so much more to appease people like you. I personally am not impressed by anything she has done. If you want to claim otherwise you go ahead and try. Literally the only thing of substance that she has ever done was already pointed out and I have already given you legit reasons why deserves ZERO credit for it.
Regarding, "Who would you say compares to her record on the subject?" Well if you standard of comparison is comparing her to a bunch of other shitbags in the Senate she does look decent. The problem there is that I do not compare her to a bunch of shit but rather have an independent idea of what I want from a politician.
Regarding, "Tulsi promoting a war criminal?" Cool smear. Again, like I've already said, this is the type of smear that REQUIRES you to back up your claim. But if all you actually care about (and I'm sure you do not) is whether or not a person has "promoted a war criminal," then you need only look at Elizabeth Warren promoting a war criminal like Hillary Clinton.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-fein/hillary-clinton-unfit-for_b_8313372.html
Sadly in this fucked up world that we live in politicians have to deal with war criminals because there are so many war criminals in positions of power in the world.
Regarding, "Lol you're funny calling yourself a progressive." Simple pleasures for simple people. I'm glad you were able to get an idiotic laugh in these sad times.
Regarding, "I was against Iraq War but no progressive I know was meeting Saddam Hussein" You know how we prevent wars? WE TALK TO WORLD LEADERS INSTEAD OF JUST BOMBING THEM.
Regarding, "promoting his propaganda like Tulsi was Asads." This smear is fucking absurd and straight out of the establishment playbook. You should be embarrassed. Tulsi went on a factfinding mission to try and find out what was going on in Syria rather than just accept the narrative been fed to us by the CIA and try to find a path to peace. That is exactly what she should be doing. That is what I want my politicians to be doing while you clearly just want us to label people war criminals so that we have an excuse to bomb everyone. It is fucking pathetic.
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danny regarding, "The nomination which he won." That only makes sense if there was actually something he could have done to prove it. There isn't. There was no smoking gun at a macro level the same way there was a smoking gun in the bronx where voters were purged. And even if there was a smoking gun it isn't Bernie Sanders responsibility to be convincing people he got fucked over. That is what lawyers are for. You have as much of a right to make a case as Sanders because it was your vote.
You are simply asking him to do the impossible.
Regarding, "he (and more importantly, WE) sure didn’t gain anything by his rolling over." First off I obviously disagree with the framing that he "rolled over." But there is a cliche that is cliche for a reason. "Live to fight another day," is a thing for a reason. Falling on his sword for a battle that couldn't be won makes no sense.
Regarding, "Then, after acknowledging that you, too believe the DNC/HRC committed election fraud, you write, “But I talk about it as little as I can.”" Yes I did. Did you bother to read anything else I wrote? I'm a fucking nobody who doesn't like to talk about that topic because it doesn't do jack fucking shit. And as much as I think there is evidence of election fraud I also concede that there is no smoking gun. There is only a good case build upon circumstantial evidence. And even thou I'm NO ONE I don't like to talk about it because I know what happens when I do... people shut me out and dismiss me as a conspiracy theorist. But you want Bernie Sanders to give the establishment that type of weapon to attack him? What could possibly go wrong with that plan other than losing the most credible progressive we have and giving the establishment a weapon to attack his cause forever?
Regarding, "You’re falling for the “Americans are idiots” arrogance" Am I now? BECAUSE AMERICANS ARE FUCKING MORONS. As evidence of this I cite the percentage of people who voted for either Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton for president compared to the percentage of Americans who voted for a person with a soul for president. If I were going to defend those morons I would cite the fact that lots and lots of them are just too busy trying to stay afloat and pay their bills to realize how much they are getting fucked over and I would also cite the fact that the corporate media essentially brainwashes the population but I still think that in general we are a country of sheep.
Regarding, "already KNOW the entire Establishment System is RIGGED" So they know it is rigged and they vote for the establishment? That is suppose to convince me they are not idiots? Sorry but I don't find that argument very compelling.
Regarding, "Calling out that rigging, would have served to affirm what people already believed" There is yuge difference between believing the system is rigged and believing in election fraud. Rigging has been proven. Election fraud has not. You are conflating the two and acting if they are the same.
Regarding, "Bernie and Jane) insisted they were crazy to believe" What evidence to you cite to justify saying Bernie and Jane insisted they were crazy to believe? Because I'm pretty sure this is bullshit even if you think they didn't do enough to talk about election fraud.
Regarding, "Refusing to LOUDLY demand legitimate elections" Again you are conflating completely different things and acting as if they are the same. There is no reason to think Sanders doesn't demand legitimate elections. What you are actually saying is that Sanders didn't accuse them of election fraud. Say that. Don't twist words and say something completely different.
Regarding, "Sanders still has the best reputation amongst any serving politician" Only because he didn't chose your plan of action. Thankfully he didn't squander this on a battle that couldn't be won. Or do you have a smoking gun that proves election fraud? Because if you do then you should be using it and taking it to a lawyer. But you don't. And neither did Sanders.
Regarding, "Democratic Party is irreparable, as they have proven since the 2016 election." The "democratic" party is a fucking label. A label that is currently stuck to a shit sandwich. But if you can get rid of the shit sandwich it is just a word. I would also like to add that the party has been a fucking dumpster fire for long time before 2016.
Regarding, "Pretending, wishing, hoping reality were different than it is will not move us forward." Clearly we have a different idea of what reality is. Because I'm pretty sure I live in a world where Sanders bitching about a less than concrete case of election fraud accomplishes nothing other than destroying him and his cause. And you pretending, wishing, and hoping that if only Sanders would have cried to Diane Sawyer about how he was fucked over it would have made a world of difference, the DNC would have said they were sorry and given him the nomination simply isn't the world I live in.
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Blessing regarding, "quite a bit by Russian meddling." I find this funny because you sound like one of David Brock's Correct the Record trolls. That is also why I don't really take the things you say very seriously.
Regarding, "he pretty much brutalized Hillary" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I love Bernie and side with him on almost everything (that said he is not perfect nor do I pretend he is) and have spent lots of time addressing him not being harder on Hillary. And those people's opinions I understand. Yours is fucking absurd and revisionist history.
Regarding, "Jill Stein further muddied the water by taking away just enough votes to make a difference in the swing states." Total bullshit and absolutely false. You either suck at math, are stupid as fuck, or, most likely in my opinion, are a paid liar. Hillary could have gotten every single Jill Stein vote even thou there is no reason to logically think she should have and Hillary still loses.
Regarding, "The country is neither far right nor far-left." Meanwhile, despite your rhetoric, literally every single major issue Bernie Sanders advocates for is popular with the public?
Regarding, " The Democratic nominee must be able to attract some moderate Republicans in order to win." And you only have to sacrifice 2 voters that should be your base to do it. This talking point was tried and is proven to be a way to lose.
Regarding, "If by some chance Bernie ends up as the Democratic nominee, he will have zero Republican support." Which is fucking bullshit because some republicans recognize that he is genuine and not a sell out. Meanwhile all polling before 2016 showed that Sanders would have fucking crushed Trump and was getting about 10 points more than Hillary.
I hope for your sake you are being paid to say this stupid shit and are not really this dumb.
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@Catloves997 Regarding, " crony capitalism is literally just capitalism, though" It's not thou. The difference is regulation.
Regarding, "The SocDem countries still have corruption" There will always be people trying to corrupt the system... even a socialist system.
Regarding, "the Right Wing taking over, waiting topple over what progress they've made" Again... none of the is extinguished through pure socialism. There will forever be people trying to abuse, manipulate, and profit off of whatever system there is.
Regarding, "The truth is that you can't have socialism and capitalism." Sure you can. Because we are talking about different things and different lanes. Health care... socialism. Cars... capitalism.
Regarding, "The car manufacturing industry is highly problematic and unnecessary." Only when they are buying our politicians, running a monopoly, not providing their workers enough to live on, not providing safe working conditions, polluting the environment unnecessarily (as for what is or isn't unnecessary is a debate to be had and I concede the answer is not perfectly clear), putting out products that are not safe, and others, but that's the gist of it. Those are the types of things regulations are suppose to be for.
Regarding, "It harms the environment and is generally unnecessary for those living in cities." I, and most Americans, believe in a concept of freedom. We don't want to be dictated by you or anyone as to whether or not we can or can't have a car, in general. That said, we lose that freedom when it is infringing on others and starts causing our neighbors harm. But that debate needs to happen and it is seldom perfectly clear as to what the balance is and where my arm ends and your arm begins. But generally that's the standard and as long as I'm not hurting you you shouldn't be bugging me. That said I care about the environment. I want our cars to be as clean as possible but trying to dictate if I can have one at all doesn't fly with me.
Regarding, "Public transport should be all people need there, so it should be improved upon." Public transport should be improved because public transport should be improved. Do that and maybe more people would use it. I've never lived in a huge city nor would I want to. If I did there's no way I'd want to be using a car. Ultimately you are going to lose people when you start trying to dictate and micromanage their lives for them in this way. Where would this mentality end? Do we outlaw McDonalds because big macs are bad for people? I value personal freedom and don't give it up too easily.
Regarding, "Know that regulations are able to be rolled back. That's the problem." This could be said of literally every good thing ever. I don't find it to be a compelling argument.
Regarding, "The goal should be a better society for everyone." I agree with this... but not at the expense of all personal freedom. I want balance. And that's what I think a mix of capitalism and socialism provides. Is it perfect? Hardly. But nothing is IMO.
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TC regarding, "This really is getting tedious." Then stop. I'm not making you do shit.
Regarding, "I think we should just respectfully agree to disagree." We can agree to disagree. That doesn't mean I'm not going to tell you why you are wrong.
Regarding, "i hate that i'm in the position to defend Chuck Todd of all people." Why do you hate it if not because he is terrible at his job?
Regarding, "I do not like MSM as much as the next guy." Clearly not... I'm the next guy.
Regarding, "Todd should only be criticized if he gave his (incorrect) talking points, presented them as facts..." So to you it is perfectly ok to frame questions disingenuously and air edited comments completely out of context as long as you give the other side a chance for rebuttal? That is batshit crazy. I know this kinda unrelated to the conversation but I was wondering if you have stopped beating your wife? It really isn't cool that you kicked the shit out of her for no reason.
Regarding, "We got bigger issues to worry about." I can walk and chew gum at the same time. One of the reasons we have all the other problems we do is because the corporate media does not give the public news. They give propaganda and work toward an agenda. An agenda that is not making the public informed (like it should be).
Regarding, "12months ago we were all complaining about media blackout of Bernie" That isn't the only thing I was complaining about at the time. Why do you think the "left" has pissed and moaned about Faux News for so long? It's because what they put on the air is garbage with a purpose to mislead and misinform. Sadly networks like MSNBC and all the others are no better.
Regarding, "now they invite him on their shows every week and we're still criticizing them" Yup. And I'm going to keep doing so as long as they keep being fucking terrible at their job. Just inviting on good people so that they can try to discredit them by asking misleading questions and showing edited, out of context film simply isn't good enough.
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Jon regarding, "well that isnt the only bill she passed" It is the only thing of note. I suspect you realize this otherwise you would have offered evidence of other important legislation she was responsible for.
Regarding, "for years she battle the banks." I guess I'm not that impressed because banks are bigger than ever and only got bigger during the time she and Obama held power.
Regarding, "she push the sec act that force banks ti admit wrong doing." Again I'm not impressed. I'd be impressed if she pushed them into jail.
Regarding, "her voting records one if the most progressive in the Senate." This only means she is more progressive than the exceptionally conservative Senate. I am not impressed and have an independent idea of what I think progressivism is that has nothing to do with the Senate.
Regarding, "if she not left enough to be considered one of us then who is beside just bernie and tulsa" Currently in government at the moment? Almost no one. But that is not really important to me as I don't have a quota of progressives I need to fill. I conceded long ago that she is better than most of our government but because I think very little of our government it doesn't mean much.
Regarding, "listen dont like that bernine sign the crime bill but that not enough to tossed someone under the bus" Ok. But the bottom line is that there comes a time when someone needs to be tossed under the bus and dismissed for not being on your side enough and/or when a person determines the issues are important to them and people have a right to decide for themselves when and where that happens.
Personally for me the issue I care the most about in politics is getting money out politics. I could literally agree with a person on every single issue but if they are going to fight to keep money in politics then they are dead to me because that is how much I care about that issue. Then after that there is a tier of issues that include reigning in the military industrial complex, medicare for all, protecting the environment, raising the minimum wage, and a couple others I can't think of this second. I don't trust her to FIGHT for any of these. Even if she gives lip service to something like raising the minimum wage I do not expect her to make it the priority it should be. You want to think she does and you want to support her then fine. That is your right.
I don't trust her and I'm not going to be supporting her. I think of her as being similar to Obama. They both know all the right words to say but ultimately I do not think they represent me.
Regarding, "that bill warren did wasnt such a band aid it gave people back billions" It absolutely was a band-aid to a person that wanted the banks broken up, glass-stegal brought back, and banking criminals put in prison. It was done so that they could claim they were doing something to fix the problem while doing nothing to prevent the same type of banking crisis from recurring in the future.
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Regarding, "I'm talking about the guy who says he is an independent" Which I'm thinking he does because that is how he feels in heart of hearts and wants to make sure other see it as well.
Regarding, "ran for president as a democrat" For about a half dozen logical reasons that I suspect you want to pretend don't exist like exposure for his ideas, not wanting to split left leaning thinkers, the electoral college, and the millions of sheep who were voting for the democrat regardless of their name to name a few.
Regarding, "supported the democratic nominee" Like he said he was going to when entering the race. Who said over and over and over how much he thought Trump sucked and how much he didn't want Trump to win. Who certainly didn't want to be blamed for him should he win. You act like this was surprising. It wasn't. Would you want to be blamed for Trump? I wouldn't. He is like Hillary Clinton but with an overt side of in your face racism.
Regarding, "says absolutely NOTHING about the illegal actions" That is absolutely not true. Just writing shit in all bold doesn't make it anymore true. You can make a case that he should have said more but you can't lie and think I should take you seriously.
Regarding, "That is a fact." Nope. You are straight up lying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W6paY8RsPI
Regarding, "and went on a fucking Democratic unity tour." Which unsurprising only showed how big the divide is and was used to talk about issues important to progressives like universal health care.
Regarding, "Bernie could not suck democrats and the DNC's dick any harder." You say this but ignore the fact that he has done more to expose the rot in the party than literally anyone on earth. More than you could do if you had 100 lifetimes. You say this stupid shit like he is good for the party. Like it would have been had he not run so that they literally would have had no reason to rig the primary in the first place. You want him to be a fucking superhero who literally does it all for you. Sorry but he is human and he can't do it all like you want and irrationally think is reasonable.
Regarding, ""Goes out of his way to be an independent"... Ha!" Um.. Yeah. I'm pretty sure just being a dem would be far easier. It would eliminate the stupid talking point establishment dems use to dismiss him of "he's not a democrat" which they are happy to do.
But you go ahead and continue to smear him. You share that aspect with the establishment and corporate media. They thank you for being a useful idiot.
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@btccoins5514 regarding, "If the person never experienced financial hardship in their life, do you really think that rich person could related to working person? Your logic say that yes, rich person WILL understand of what struggling working people are going through b/c they just "know"." Sigh... No. I am not saying that the rich person WILL (I find it especially funny how you put this terrible, terrible, terrible, strawman argument point in all caps) understand. I am saying that they, assuming they are not a sociopath, are capable of understanding. That rich person has a brain. That brain allows them to imagine what it would be like if, for example, all of a sudden their bank account was at zero. That people, who aren't severely damaged, have the they are capable of imagining being in situations they don't experience.
Do you have as much trouble understanding this concept in another direction? Just because I've never been a professional athlete does that mean I'm incapable of understanding how sweet that might be?
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Eric regarding, "Bernie Sanders wants to work within the Democratic party platform, and that alone makes him not a progressive." I envy your ability to think everything is so simplistic and black and white. I guess I too am not a "progressive" despite my own thinking on the matter because I want a hostile takeover of the party. I guess justice democrats are not progressive then.
Regarding, "The Democratic Party is part of the system, the system that which..." I don't mean to rain on your parade but the only way to try and fix things is to work in the system. Even if you smashed everything to the ground and started to start fresh that fresh start would occur "in the system."
Regarding, "You think a capitalistic system has any regard for humanity?" I think regulated capitalism (unlike the current capitalism we have that has run amok) is just great for almost everything. There is no better system when it comes to selling cars and computers as long as the government is doing their job making sure the playing field is level. That said there are exceptions. There is no place for capitalism when it comes to health care, war, education, and prisons. Those are areas where people should not be allowed to get filthy rich.
Regarding, "And Bernie Sanders is part of the system." Which makes logical sense if you are trying to change said system.
Regarding, "I think there is nothing but doom for us in the future." If we are doomed it isn't going to be because of capitalism. It will be because money in politics is fucking everything up from top to bottom. All problems are all but impossible to solve because our politicians are bought and paid for. They are not the independent arbitrators of the system like they are suppose to be... they are the ones tipping all the scales.
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Pappy regarding, "I never said anything of the kind." You may not have explicitly said it but that is clearly what you demonstrate you think... You demonstrate that you literally need to only know one thing about them and that one thing makes everything else about them irrelevant.
Regarding, "it was a lie" Huh? You are using the word lie wrong just like you use the word sellout wrong. You are talking about a fucking endorsement. An endorsement is, by it's nature, an opinion.
Regarding, "(to endorse) is not a serious thing" Yes. That is what I'm saying. I guess it has to do with the fact that I personally do not a give a flying fuck about endorsements candidates do and do not have when voting. I'm not a fucking sheep who needs to be told by others who to vote for. I make that decision for myself and don't give a fuck who Ro or anyone else endorses.
Regarding, "You claim that I am making a mountain out of a molehill?" Yes. Absolutely.
Regarding, "Its a specific statement of political policy." No. It isn't. It is a vague statement of a political person. There is absolutely nothing specific about it when it comes to policy. Ro could disagree with literally any position a person he endorses has and still legitimately be willing to endorse them. You know what is a specific statement of political policy? Specific statements of political policy and specific votes on political policy.
Regarding, "I care about policy." You say this but you demonstrate otherwise when you say, "I don't really care about his past voting record."
Regarding, "I honestly want to know." How about literally everything else the guy does other than an endorsement like, specifically, his voting record. Because like I've already pointed out that tells you far more about the guy. That tells you how he GOVERNS. Which I personally think should be far more important to you than it is because... like I've said, you demonstrate you don't give a fuck about how he has governed because of a fucking endorsement.
Regarding, "If he is a sellout." I really hate that nowadays some people seem to think sellout means "does something I disagree with" as opposed to what it actually means.
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Taskmaster regarding, "There's no right answer." It is like you think this some kinda trick gotcha question. It isn't.
Regarding, "There are an infinitesimal number of ways it could go." Yup. And all I was asking for from you was a single example, in all the many ways that might be, of a way things would be better because of what Trump did. Keep in mind that there are lots and lots and lots of ways it go wrong. That deal was the only thing stopping them from working on nukes. Like I said, sanctions are not suppose to be the endgame. They are a tool that we were using to bring them to the table to give up nukes. And it worked.
For example if you asked me how Trump negotiating with NK could make things better then it was I, an avid Trump hater, have no problem giving you an answer... Trump negotiating with NK could lead to them giving up their nuclear program (exactly like how Iran had given up theirs) and that would be better then what was. (Note I'm not optimistic about it's possibility but it is, at the very least possible.) That's the goal. That's the endgame. That is what we had with Iran before Trump fucked it up and that was my point that I was hoping you might think long and hard about.
Regarding, "If you're so smart, why aren't you president?" This question feels rhetorical but I'll answer it anyway. Being smart does not have nearly as much to do with being president as other things. For example just having the right last name like Bush or Clinton is far more important sadly. Also I would like to add that the idea of running for office (any office) sounds less fun then having all my teeth pulled and I'm kind of an asshole (like I've said).
Regarding, "I'll continue to stay open minded about our countries future." Fine. But for the sake of the country be willing to call it out when it is wrong. The country is not innately great. It is only great when it acts great.
Regarding, "to respect the office." I would be curious to hear what this means to you. I personally adhere to the phrase "respect is earned, not given," and an inanimate job isn't able to earn my respect so I do not feel the same. But like I said I would be curious to hear what that means to you because I'm honestly unsure what you mean.
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Sir regarding, "we can certainly have a discussion without calling each other names" Sure we can but I'm going to call people names when I think it is justified. And I think it is a bit hypocritical of you to get pissy at me for calling you a name after you were doing the exact same thing to Bernie.
Regarding, "I am disappointed in him" You want to be disappointed in him? You want to disagree with him on something? Fine. That is reasonable. What is unreasonable is extrapolating that because he did something different than you would have liked then he must be a shill.
Regarding, "BDS movement" I can't speak intelligently about this. I confess that my priorities are domestic. I had to look up what BDS even meant. I personally want the US to mind their own fucking business, get out of the business of other countries and focus on their own citizens but ultimately foreign issues are not nearly as important to me as domestic.
Regarding, "I continued to support him even after he accused Russia of sabotaging the elections" Do you really not think they messed with our elections? I assume they did and don't really even need any evidence of it. That said I also assume the US is fucking with everyone elses elections around the world and don't exactly need proof of this to think so either.
Regarding, "a potential war if this continues to escalate" If we go to war with Russia it sure as fuck won't be Sanders fault and I expect him to be voting against it before it would happen. If he doesn't then you would really have something to complain about and I promise I'll be right beside you screaming for Bernie's head but in the meantime it seems silly to be blaming him for a war with Russia that hasn't happened.
Regarding, "My support came to an end after reading the DNC's atrocious defense in the fraud case." So you stopped supporting Bernie because the DNC was proven to be corrupt as fuck even thou you never would have know if it were not for Bernie. Instead of being grateful to Bernie for increasing your understanding of the world you decided he need be shunned at this moment. I disagree.
Regarding, "but not the DNC" You want to disagree with Bernie on this? Fine. That is reasonable. I don't even Bernie for having to decide how to proceed when it comes to shit like this. I would like to remind you that the establishment is and will continue to do every fucking thing imaginable to smear him. Hillary Clinton and the corporate media are accusing him of costing the queen the election in spite of this. Imagine how much easier it would be for them to make their bullshit arguments if he actually gave them a good way to attack him for being a whiner and sore loser. Americans fucking hate that. Even Hillary Clinton supporters are having an impossible time defending their fallen queen as she whines about her loss. Of course Sanders has actual grievances unlike her but he chose to not give them ammo to use against him. Sanders is all about policy and getting the policies he wants passed. He decided the best way to get his goals achieved is by ignoring this one battle and instead choosing to fight the other ones. You want to disagree with him? Fine. That is legit. But that doesn't make him a shill. Again, he is the only reason you are even woke on this.
Regarding, "letting the DNC get off scot free" Do you really think Sanders getting involved would have changed the outcome of the court case? It wouldn't have. The only thing that he could have changed is that maybe a few more people would have been woke to how corrupt the DNC is. But in all honesty if you don't realize it by now that likely would not have made any difference. You would have been happier. But Sanders doesn't care about making you happy that way. He cares about making you happy by getting the policy he wants passed. And the best way to do that is by not rocking the boat this one time. A good general picks their battles. Because he didn't fight this one he is better positioned to win the rest of them. He is the most popular politician in the country at the moment in part because of how he handled this. That is important because we need him to be so that he can win and get the change we rightfully deserve.
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@Blodhelm Regarding, "Whoa there buddy, turn down the paranoia dial a little." Because there aren't paid shills? Oh wait. There are and if you want to deny it it's you who has trouble with reality.
Regarding, "Any system like Medicare for All will still have holes or procedures that aren't covered." Only if holes are left and there is no reason to leave them.
Regarding, "Allowing for the existence of private insurance can fill the gap." Why again are there gaps being left? Why exactly is the private health insurance industry a better answer than just giving great comprehensive universal health care? Better idea, we close the gaps. Private insurance has no place in good system. They are completely unnecessary to a robust single payer system.
Regarding, "Even single-payer systems still don't "abolish" private insurance entirely." The idea is to cover all areas that insurance would be used. You make it illegal to double up on coverage. And just like that they have no room to breathe and no reason to exist. The goal isn't to "abolish" them with brute force, but to destroy all the places they would exist. We give good universal care and there is no reason for them. And if you want a boob job or a dick implant you can pay for it out of pocket or finance it. Those are already the types of things that private health insurance doesn't cover.
Regarding, "Having <1% of the population choosing additional and regulated private insurance vs forcing everyone to use it, is still a huge shift." Or better yet we just do it right the first time. Why are you determined to have a slice of cake when it would be better to just have the whole pie?
Regarding, "Private insurance doesn't even need to be eliminated by law" Yup. That's the idea. To not technically eliminate it but to create a system that covers everything private health insurance would cover, to outlaw duplication of coverage, and just like that they have no reason to be and the world is a far better place.
Regarding, "Not using the language of "abolishing" insurance however, can be useful for deflecting the panic of the uninformed who fear major changes but would be more amenable to the concept of a mixed system." Stupid people are going to be stupid regardless. I know what I want, a world where private health insurance companies are gone. Anyone not committed to that goal isn't fighting for what's right and what I want. I don't have time for word games. I want leadership and a clear representation of my values.
Private health insurance companies have no place in out society. I'm not interested in half measures. That's what the ACA was and it was a failure and blowjob to the powers that be. It's time for the real hope and change that I was promised long ago but never received. Let's just do it right the first time shall we? Because the whole world is rightfully laughing at us while we let our people die unnecessarily.
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@penpenultra Regarding, "You can't believe I'm being honest about even my voting." Don't blame me for having my doubts. Blame corrupt dems like hillary who use superpac money "correcting the record" otherwise known as professionally lying to cause me to have reasonable suspicion.
Regarding, "Why would I feel the need to lie to some stranger in a YT comment section about that?" Pac money is spent in such a way to try and control the narrative. They can't just rely on corporate media propaganda forever. Things change.
Regarding, "What a bizarre conversation we're having." Yeah. At least you haven't managed to strawman in this response yet. That's probably the first time.
Regarding, "It's beyond you that someone could follow logic differing from your own." It's more that I don't find you very intellectually honest. It isn't a big leap to think you are also just dishonest dishonest.
Regarding, "I haven't been propagandized to like you continue to suggest." That's why you can't comprehend that are other options than a giant douche and turd sandwich? So much so you just strawman the things I say, instead of addressing the things I do say?
Regarding, "I haven't been propagandized to like you continue to suggest." LMFAO You are the same guy saying, "I didn't forget (that biden is a fascist). You assume I don't know that Biden is a piece of shit. Of course he is. (But that doesn't mean I won't support him. Of course I'd support a POS. Because I'm a moron.) I'm seeing this all through a utilitarian point of view as best I can. (willfully ignoring how this "point of view" has already gotten us to the place we are. And offers no solution as to how to get out of it. It's just "not trump." But I'd still support trump if he were the dem and It thought the republican was worse because "utilitarianism.") America has been knee-deep in fascism for a long time, but I'd rather not see it worsen. (That's why I'm voting for fascist light.!)"
Regarding, "As of now it isn't pragmatic to vote third party, and it isn't a luxury the people can afford unfortunately." I'm way done giving a shit how you rationalize supporting a POS. But maybe don't try and make everyone as dumb as you?
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@nimkal Regarding, "I never stated that was her mentality about her campaign." I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth and if that's the impression I left you or that I misrepresented your thoughts I apologize. I was trying to talk about my own thoughts, what I look for, and my own personal concerns, and not just with her but with all politicians in general.
Regarding, "from watching her speak" In all honesty I think watching a politician speak is one of the absolute worst ways to think you know something about a politician. I'm not saying it should be ignored entirely, but I am saying that studying their record and following the money (who funds their campaigns) tells you far more about that politician than the words they use.
Regarding, "Bernie is..." Yup. Bernie is the fucking man. He isn't perfect but considering how long his record is it is remarkable how consistently correct he has been over the course of his career. He demonstrates true leadership and is willing to take the right positions even when those positions were not popular with the public. Society seems to be catching up to him and now essentially everything he advocates for is what they want. Sadly the public often demonstrates a willingness to vote against their own self interests and beliefs. Hopefully they don't do that in 2020.
Regarding, "His experience" As someone who was duped by Obama in part because he had such a short record to look back at (and because the guy gave a great speech which goes back to my previous point) I can't agree more. I value a long record as is the case with Sanders and I will feel more comfortable supporting Tulsi in another 8 years after she has been able to lengthen hers.
Regarding, "even though I like her foreign policy." Yup. I love her foreign policy. I like how articulate she is about it. I like that it comes from a vet, not because I value it personally for reasons I've already given, but because I know so many Americans do value it and will take her message of peace more seriously when it does come from a vet (not that I think they should). I'd be just fine and happy as hell, mostly because of this specific issue, if she were Sanders VP or Secretary of State.
But I'm of the firm belief that her time isn't now (for president) and that splitting the vote is a seriously concern and problem worth addressing.
It's already going to be hard enough to get a progressive president without us handicapping ourselves.
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Aitch regarding, "Genuine, like when he crumpled after being abused by the DNC" What you are talking about are political tactics. How do you best serve your interests and try to get what you want done. I disagreed with Bernie very much in the moment and still do. That said it might actually end up being the best play for the long run to serve his interests. The country is in a perfect position so than actually progressive will be the next president. Even Hillary Clinton die hards have a hard time excusing her current whining and it is a turnoff to the public at large. (Note, Sanders actually had a legitimate grievance compared to the queen.)
But he is genuine when it comes to POLICY POSITIONS. That is what is most important to me. I think it is very reasonable that people who want single payer have very, very, very different ideas about how it is best to get it but ultimately what is most important to me is that we both actually want single payer.
Regarding, "Do you remember when he went up to do that, and the crowd cheered for him damn near 15 minutes straight even after he told them to stop half a dozen times?" Have you seen the movie Half Baked? The whole time I was fantasizing about Bernie saying fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, your cool, fuck you I'm running independent.
I get it. I really do. I wanted him to run as 3rd party candidate. But I get it. At the end of the day he was still the same person fighting for the same things I want him to fight for even if I thought at that moment he was going about it wrong. I personally never questioned his resolve for the cause even while disagreeing with the tactics.
Regarding, "The voters would have stood by him whatever direction he wanted to go." Maybe. I want to think so but ultimately I'm very cynical and do not think much of the public and our media. Him running as a 3rd party candidate would have been just another tool the establishment would use to attack him. Then there would have been the problem that he would need a majority of electoral college votes... having the most would not have been good enough.
We will never know. I like to think that if he could have won then he DEFINITELY can win in 2020 and we are far better off with him late than never.
Regarding, "he still got on his knees for the Dems." It was an endorsement not his soul. He didn't want to be blamed for Trump winning which is quite reasonable to me. I fucking love Bernie Sanders but I didn't vote for Hillary, I voted for Jill Stein happily. Only a fucking sheep votes based on an endorsement anyway.
Regarding, "We could have had the most massive 3rd party vote in recent history" As much as I hate the party system and want more parties, as much as a I hate the "democratic" party, I think it would be best if Sanders wins as a democrat and not an independent or Green Party. As much as the "democratic" party should die I just don't see it happening. And what I think would be best for the country is if someone could reform the party from the inside out so that they actually represented the people and not the corporations. If he wins as a democrat he would be positioned to do so. If he wins as an independent he is unable to do so.
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@leovolont Regarding, " who is exactly to the Left of Warren?" Lots of people that are supporting Sanders at the moment and not running against him and splitting the progressive vote. And as for candidates that are running, Tulsi.
Regarding, "She is for Burning Down Wall Street, right?" She wages a good finger at them. And her rhetoric is great. Her convictions? I wholeheartedly question them.
Regarding, "then you know that he came off like some grouchy old broken record caricature of himself" I concede that he didn't have an epic great night but you are talking about him like he shit the bed. That wasn't Bernie. That was Biden.
Regarding, "Liz Warren had Glowed and Fizzed" One of the absolute worst ways to think you know something about a politician is to listen to their rhetoric. Politicians are rightfully known for being great liars. You should spend less time listening to them speak and more time studying their record and following the money of their campaigns. That tells you far more about who they are and those things can't lie.
Regarding, "I heard Bernie did not want to do Debate Prep," LMFAO. Citation please. But if you want a real reason why he might not have been at his best he's been busy fighting for workers, their wages, and their rights.
You can't be serious with this crap can you? I can only assume you are being paid for this shit.
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Regarding, "It's called "unconditional love" if you're not familiar." Have some perspective, you are talking about a politician not your child. I am reminded of Trump talking about how he could shoot someone and his supporters would still love him. It was one of the few times Trump said something that wasn't bullshit. But that truth and sentiment was sickening and it is still sickening when you express unconditional love for warren.
Regarding, "I have no doubt of the Senator's intentions to do good." We are going to have to agree to disagree about this. And even if her intention are good her actions are shit. We need a leader for president and even if her intentions are good she isn't a leader. She didn't lead when it came to standing rock, sanders, jailing bankers and more.
Regarding, "I agree we should all have litmus tests." Good. You should. And that was what I'm talking about and not needing to agree with someone about everything.
Regarding, "Not voting to increase military funding while President Trump just isn't one of them for me." Ok. It is for me and not just because Trump is president. But the fact that she was willing to do so while Trump is president only makes her decision that much more asinine if she actually thinks he is the danger and menace that she likes to say while deflecting and distracting from the shortcoming of the "democratic" party.
Regarding, "50% seems like a good starting point" Is that before or after she helped raise it by 10 percent? Look I like that you say you want to reign in the military industrial complex but, like warren, actions speak louder than words. I can't tell you how shocked I was that she voted for it. Not because I think she is a great progressive but because her vote was fucking meaningless. She could have voted against it and it still would have passed with ease. She didn't even feel the need to try and pander to someone like me when it came to such an important issue.
Regarding, "it's getting funded whether Senator Warren voted for it or not." If you weren't defending her before you certainly are now. That vote didn't matter as to whether or not the bill would pass but it absolutely reflects her values and her values do not align with me.
Regarding, "She plays Machiavellian tactics far more than I care for." Again defending her even if there is a criticism within. And I question whether this is a "tactic" and not her values. Ultimately it doesn't matter what her actual values are if she votes against them and has a public and private face like Hillary.
Regarding, "One of my litmus tests.... stubborn person if you can't tell." I agree with all of this paragraph and I too can be proud and stubborn. I also concede that I can be a real dick. I don't sugarcoat my opinions so if I am offensive and crass don't take it personally. You sound very reasonable even if I disagree with some things you say.
Regarding, "It was a monumental step forward" Nope. Bringing back glass stegall would have been monumental and those two things aren't even in the same ballpark.
Regarding, "organized money lost that fight." They won the war thou didn't they? This was akin to the ACA. They are both examples of the establishment doing just enough to make sure to maintain the status quo and preventing real substantive change. They are both peanuts when thinking about the big picture. They are both examples of doing just enough to placate the masses so they don't take up pitchforks.
Regarding, "there wouldn't be one." So you think that it was possible for them to do nothing to address a near collapse of the global economy? Because the fact of the matter is that if that wasn't done then something else, something more substantive, would have been in it's place.
Regarding, "I assure you they got their caviar twisted in a bunch over that loss." We have to agree to disagree about this. The oligarchy is corrupt but they aren't stupid. They know that they have to throw the public a bone or two to, like I've already said, keep the masses placated.
Regarding, "I know for a fact she supports Glass-Steagall being reinstated but the public has to be educated" If she actually supports it like you say then she should probably a leader on the topic. As it stands I've never known her to utter the words glass-steagall. Maybe she has between swinging at the low hanging fruit that is Trump and I didn't hear but had I heard I'd remember. That issue is important to me and important to the country.
Regarding, "Bernie is far and away the most qualified person to be President right now both for his experience in politics and his agenda/worldview." I wholeheartedly agree with this.
Regarding, "To end on a note upon which we can agree: LIZ, STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE 2020 ELECTION." Yup. I wholeheartedly agree with this.
Again sorry for being rude at times. It isn't personal. You are very likable and highly intelligent even if we disagree about some things. Peace.
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You want more? Fine. I guess I just realized that you knew that you were saying stupid things because you knew you were going to get flack for saying them but whatever.
Regarding, "Fuck Bernie" Fuck Bernie? No. Fuck you. Bernie Sanders has done more than anyone else in the world to expose the rot in the DNC and the system. Thanks to Bernie more people than ever are woke to the systemic corruption that exists in our government. He has fought for progressive cause his entire life and despite being in government for a very long time has almost never been on the wrong side of an issue.
Regarding, "he didn't fight" He entered the race down 60 points and only "lost" because of shenanigans. He fought like a motherfucker KNOWING the game was rigged as fuck when most people would have just given up Biden style.
Regarding, "it was obvious he got cheated by Filthy Hillary" Yes. It was obvious. I'm not sure about you but I knew it was fucking obvious the game was rigged when 400 superdelegates pledged their support to her before a single peasant even voted. It was fucking obvious from start to finish but ultimately crying like a bitch Hillary Clinton book tour style is counterproductive to do what he wants done.
Regarding, "ultimately fell in line and actually supported the bitch." When entering the primary he agreed to support the "winner" of the nomination. He lost and fullfilled his pledge. Sanders is like that... he does what he says he will do. But I think it had more to do with the fact that he didn't want Trump to win. Can you really blame him for not wanting to be blamed for Trump? Can you blame him for not wanting Trump to be president? I sure as fuck get it. He is just as corrupt as Hillary with the bonus of being downright offensive.
Regarding, "she still blames him" She is a POS. I'm not sure why I'm suppose to be mad at Sanders for her actions. And I'm glad she blames him. She only makes herself and the corporate dems look that much worse when she does. Even Hillary supporters have an impossible time justifying her crying.
Regarding, "He started a movement." Yes he did. It wasn't about him. It was about the movement. You should be happy he left this legacy instead of crying like a bitch Hillary Clinton style.
Regarding, "TULSI GABBARD" I love Tulsi Gabbard. I'd be happy if she were President. But Sanders is the logical choice in 2020. He has the name recognition of rock star and is rightfully the most popular politician in the country. Gabbard would have the problems Sanders had in 2016 when he entered of limited name recognition and that is exceptionally important in a world where the corporate media will go out of their way to not cover non establishment candidates other than to smear them.
And as much as I love what I know about her she does not have a very long record to look at and know for sure what we would be getting. Especially at the start of her career she seemed very conservative in her beliefs before seeming to evolve.
Regarding, "I'm doing the "establishment's" work by promoting Tulsi" I'm talking about the other 99 percent of your bullshit that happened before that where you took a piss on about the only decent politician in government who, without him, you might not even know who Tulsi Gabbard was.
Is that enough for you? Can I now call you a fucking moron with your approval?
Like I said the establishment appreciates you smearing Sanders and thank you for doing their work for them. Now go fuck yourself. I don't care if you are only accidentally doing their work for them, the bottom line is that you are working against my interests and your own when doing so. It is fucking stupid so I'm going to call you stupid for doing it.
Oh, and I did watch it. What dumbass reason do you think I didn't? Don't answer. This is rhetorical. I don't actually give a fuck what you think. I just wanted to call you dumb for saying stupid things.
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Planet regarding, "damned e mails." When I said issues I was talking about policy. The emails are not, in any way shape or form policy. The emails are about Hillary Clinton. I liked that Sanders wanted to talk about policy and not about Hillary.
I remember watching that debate. I even remember my thoughts at the time. You know what they were? They were, "that's why I fucking love that guy." I totally agreed with him at the time. I was fucking exhausted by the conversation of her emails. I, like Sanders, wanted to talk about war policy, and money in politics, and the minimum wage, and the environment and.... I wanted to hear ABOUT POLICY.
But try and remember exactly when that was being talked about. The fact of the matter is that, at that point, the most damning information about Hillary's emails had yet to come out. Had that question been asked in a later debate his answer may very well been very different and my desire to hear about her emails may very well been very different because, like I accurately point out, things changed significantly after that.
Regarding, "u found it refreshing that bern didn't want to debate it" I found it refreshing that a candidate wanted to talk about issues (as in policy). I mean look at the corporate media and how they cover shit. You know what is missing from their bullshit? Talk of policy. They would rather talk about scandals because that shit distracts from the much more important topic of laws that actually impact the public. Who Trump fucked for example doesn't actually affect me.
Regarding, "Sounds like ur the hillary fan to me." Sounds like you are retarded to me when you say this.
Regarding, "U probably voted for her cuz bern told u to." I voted for Jill Stein because she was the only candidate running I actually wanted to win. And as for who Bernie endorsed I didn't care. I fucking love the guy but only sheep vote based on someone else's endorsement and I'm not a sheep.
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@technosaurus3805 First off I'm going to laugh at myself for taking your corporate talking points seriously. Why I'm about to do this I have no idea. I guess I'm just bored.
Regarding, "What you want will eliminate entry level jobs, offshore low skilled manufacturing jobs, jobs that can be mechanized, harm national security, increase global pollution and emissions and eventually lead to the inflation that makes the whole thing pointless" Nope. I want to raise the minimum wage. I get that you want to allude that if the minimum wage is raised armagedon would be unleashed but your fear mongering is just that, fear mongering. And it's silly.
Regarding, "This is a time of high unemployment, riot damage and lockdown induced struggling small businesses." I guess everything is a hellscape so now isn't a time to try and improve people's lives? I don't find that very compelling.
Regarding, "if you want all the small businesses that were devastated over the last year to go under completely in favor of billionaire owned megacorps that got a free pass and can afford it, then you may as well just admit you are pro fascism." LMFAO. If all the BS you spew were actually true and this would all benefit the super rich then the super rich would already be doing this to crush everyone and trying to make all this happen.
In reality if you give all the peasants more money then they go out and spend that money. And not only do they have more money to go out and spend at small businesses but they just very well might be more likely to go out and spend their money at small businesses rather than at the megacorp because they don't have to pinch every penny and cut every cost they possible can just to put food on the table they way they do now.
If you are a small business and you can't survive everyone having more money to spend at your shop then so be it. Paying your employees enough to live on is the bare minimum we need to ask of ANY business owner. "pro fascism" LMFAO What a clown you are.
Regarding, "It's also extremely arrogant to assume that people are too pathetic to negotiate the wage they are worth" I'm long winded. There is a lot to address. And instead of addressing something I actually said you strawman and suggest that I've said things like, "people are too pathetic to negotiate the wage they are worth." I mean... what? Why am I here addressing you? It clearly doesn't matter what I say. You will here what you want.
Regarding, "get to a fair wage" Get to a fair wage? Why should people have to "get to" a fair wage? Why shouldn't they be paid a fair wage to start? A wage that they can live on?
Regarding, "The minimum wage should be eliminated" May as well bring back slavery while you are at it. It too would achieve all the goals you care about.
Regarding, "your assumptions of cost of living in the rural Midwest is way too high." LMFAO. I made no assumptions of the cost of living in the rural midwest. I've actually never even used the phrase "cost of living" or mentioned the "rural midwest" until now. As I write this I'm beginning to understand why I started addressing you. This is really funny to me. Thanks for the laugh.
Regarding, "You can buy..." Seeing as how it's like you are addressing someone other than myself who said something other than what I have I'm going to just go ahead and ignore all the nonsense attached to it.
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CalliChan regarding, "You did." This is funny to me because your saying this is making lots of incorrect and terrible assumptions about me. Essentially everyone changes but that isn't what you are trying to say here. You are talking about yourself essentially and conflating my thinking with yours. And from your comment I think it is pretty clear that we don't think the same way about things.
Regarding, "I couldn't stand Bill Maher," Well, I really liked him. In part because I liked him calling out religions for their bullshit which is very much lacking in the media and in part because he called out Bush and company for their bullshit at the time which again was very much lacking.
Regarding, "he's always been a smug asshole" I'm a smug asshole so I'm not going to hypocritically care if someone is smug and you seem to be smug as well according to your comment. Now I don't care about you being smug but I do care about you seeming to be hypocritical. What's far more important than not being "smug" is being right. Maher used to say things that were right. Now, especially when he talks about Hillary and the "democratic" party he is wrong.
Regarding, "who punches down at anyone who disagrees with him." When all other things are equal punching up is obviously preferable to punching down but that doesn't mean that punching down is innately wrong. When Neil Degrasse Tyson calls out flat earthers is that "punching down" and therefor wrong? We are all, Maher, you, and me all just fighting a war of ideas about things. It is debate. Ultimately what is important to me and why I personally have gone from likely Maher to hating him is the difference between me thinking he is right about the things he is saying and me thinking he is wrong about the things he is saying. I still think that he is right when he talks about how the Bush administration sucks and how religion sucks. But that isn't what he says now. Now he says stupid ass shit like he misses the Bush administration.
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Regarding, "i think if hed have gone and directly presented the evidence at the convention" If they knew he was going to he never gets in the door. If he hides it and starts saying what you want they turn the cameras off and kick him out.
Regarding, "the people would have reacted" Um, sure. People would have reacted. Would he have gotten the nomination? Only in your dreams.
Regarding, "The lawyers couldnt take down the dnc because it was never given major attention" "Major attention" is not a valid legal argument.
Regarding, "showing that there is no actual vote." But there was an actual vote and Hillary won it until you can prove otherwise, which you can't.
Regarding, "Bernie could have been the peaceful leader who gave that to us by directly speaking to the people" He could have said some shit that would have made you cum in pants but changed nothing. Instead he decided to continue the fight were it makes the most sense to fight and I support him for that because it makes sense.
Regarding, "Whatever, but i definitely wont vote for him again." I guess that makes sense to you. Like I said before, that makes you the quitter not him. The establishment appreciate and thank you for your decision.
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jaime regarding, "they know perfectly well that socialists confiscatory taxes are just a new tipe of communism" I'm older and I realize that what you just said is dumb as fuck. Older people understand that some socialist policies like social security for example are not the devil you claim.
Regarding, "Trump would have beat bernie with facts" Even Trump knows that your statement is dumb as fuck otherwise he would have debated Sanders in California rather than pussy out.
Regarding, "Big companies would have supported Trump" Yes corporatations would have preferred Trump because he is a rich, elite, oligarch. The people would have loved to vote for Sanders because he actually represents them. Sadly they didn't get the chance.
Regarding, "Trump wants to bring companies back" You could tell by the fact that his "make America great again" hats were not made in America.
Regarding, "sanders wants to tax them" Wouldn't it be nice if corporations like GE paid their fair share?
Regarding, "Sanders who didn't had the guts to use the email scandal against clinton" He wanted to run an issue oriented, clean campaign. Only a brainwashed Trump supporter would think this was a bad thing.
Regarding, "that guy is not a winner" See you in 4 years. Enjoy the orange clown while he lasts.
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Jamie I'm going to give you more attention than you deserve.
Regarding, "I didn't say anything about social security" You talked about socialism. Social security is socialism.
Regarding, "I didn't say anything about... public services" You asked, "are you ok with government taking your wealth through taxation" Public services are paid through taxation.
Regarding, "(two different things)" Thanks for clearing that up. I'm not sure why you think anyone was confused about this.
Regarding, "you both haven't read it clearly." No you are completely misunderstanding.
Regarding, "This is not about paying taxes, we all do , and its ok" Huh. Because it really seemed as if you were suggesting otherwise when you asked, "are you ok with government taking your wealth through taxation?" It really seemed as if you were not ok with paying taxes.
Regarding, "This is not about paying taxes, we all do , and its ok, the problem is the "confiscatory tax" which is a new form of "expropriation" that communism used...
"I won't take your business but I will take your money"" This is all absurd. So absurd I feel no need to address it.
Regarding, "otherwise how would you fund socialism for 350 million people" It really depends on what socialism you are talking about. Nobody wants socialism everywhere. If you want to answer your own question you should figure out how social security is paid for and you can answer your own question. Again, social security is socialism.
Regarding, "a huge government to waste it" People have different ideas about what government wastes money on. How do you feel about the US spending as much money as the next 8 countries combined on "defense?" Or do you only save your government is wasting money outrage for people trying to get universal health care? A country that ensures its citizens get health care is hardly waste to me.
Regarding, "sanders wants to renegotiate trade deals" You are so all over the place with your "thoughts." Sanders correct that that NAFTA was terrible for the working class although I'm lost as to how you got to talking about this here.
Regarding, "big companies will never pay," So we should just let big companies get away with murder then? I disagree.
Regarding, "USA is the greatest country in the world because of capitalism not socialism." You can keep capitalism almost everywhere. But there are a few places where big business should be able to get rich. Sick people for example. I'm sorry but you can't get rich off of sick people and to do so is just sick. Again you seem to think he or anyone wants socialism everywhere. No one is suggesting that. You are just fear mongering.
Regarding, "Trump also fought against a rigged system" Trump has exploited the rigged system his entire life. He even says so when he talks.
Regarding, "MSM" I can't help but laugh when Trump supporters rail against the MSM. The MSM gave Trump BILLIONS in free media. They would cover Trump's empty podium while Sanders would be speaking in front of record crowds. He owes the MSM nothing but a big thank you. That corrupt enterprise did more to get him elected than Trump did himself.
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jaime regarding, "I lived it." All American live with it. Again, social security is socialism and it isn't causing the country to fall apart like you like to fear monger.
Regarding, "the US isn't Latin America you are right about that, but it isn't Scandinavia either... That guy is the real populist, and the real
demagogue, he is filling you all especially kids, with empty promises
saying free this free that dont worry the rich will pay." Nobody but fools has this type of empty mentality. I don't really have the time or energy to tell you how you are wrong about everything.
Regarding, "kids" Remember when you said, "Well thank you for the insults." Nothing hypocritical about that is there? When you insult people it is totally different. I admit I can be dick. But I also don't go around crying when people insult me except when people like you are hypocrites about it. I'm no kid. I'm betting I'm older than you are. But only a "kid" would think differently than you? Sheesh.
Regarding, "look into socialism funding sources before you make your choice, and see if it really can apply to the US." Essentially every major country provides universal health care. We pay more for health care and get worse results. But god forbid we make changes like that for the better. The health care insurance industry needs to make their BILLIONS of dollars every year by price gouging. What would we every do without them.
Regarding, "Goodbye" Goodbye. Good luck with your fear mongering elsewhere.
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Any chance we could talk about important issues? Ya know... the issues the public actually cares about? Jill Stein is right on war/peace (foreign policy), education, health care, criminal justice reform, the environment and fracking, the TPP and jobs, taxes, jobs, equality, money in politics, ethics, financial reform and glass-steagal. This is what the public actually cares about so how about we talk about those. I assure you Jill Stein is on the right side of every one of those issues.
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Mark regarding, "what you say might be equal. But that is not necessarily the same as fair." Actually only way to be fair is to treat everyone as equal. To treat people differently is obviously the unfair route.
Regarding, "Numbers matter, but they are not the only thing that matters." They are the only thing that should matter when picking a winner of an election.
Regarding, "I still think some special weight should be given to counties and states, regardless of population." That is, by very definition, unfair.
Regarding, "I do not concede that NYC carries as much weight as 5 or 6 small-population states combined." It isn't about NYC. It isn't about small states. It is about one person gets one vote. It is about everyone having the same say regardless of where you live.
Regarding, "we will have to agree to disagree." I'm not going to lie I have a difficult time understanding your position.
Regarding, "Cheers, and thanks for making some excellent points!" Take care. Have a nice night.
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"Human" I assure you I understand nuance quite well. The only reason you think this has anything to do with nuance and not you being an idiot is... because you are an idiot. Regarding, "You don't have to SUPPORT the person you're voting for" I'm going to try and break this down for you so that a person of your limited intellect might understand. There are several different ways you could support a candidate. Examples of supporting a candidate include, sending them money, working directly for a campaign, working indirectly for a campaign (talking on a message board), and, probably most important to candidates... VOTING FOR THEM. You do not have to do all to support someone. All of them are examples of supporting them. For example a person could not work in any way shape of form for a candidate, not vote for candidate, but if they sent a candidate a million dollar check to their superpac they certainly would be supporting them. A person could not speak a word of politics or spend a dime for a candidate but if they vote for a candidate they are supporting them.
Again, this really is not hard to understand unless you are fucking moron. Regarding you calling me, "you retarded mother fucking BOOB." What you are doing is called projection in psychology. Thanks for the laugh dipshit.
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Regarding, "Oh, I realize that Lincoln was our president A LONG TIME AGO," Is this your rational for lying?
Regarding, "MUCH has changed," Thanks for clearing that up. I thought things were exactly the same as then. I should really go tell my slaves things have changed and they are actually free. They too will be happy to have been enlightened by the moron that is you.
Regarding, "Can YOU admit that an honest leader can NOT be elected under a system run by criminals" I'm not sure. I am sure that I am going to continue to support candidates worthy of my vote. I will never vote for a POS candidate like Donald Trump.... unlike an idiot I know (that's you.... you are the idiot. I figure I better tell you in case you were not smart enough to figure it out without me telling you.)
Regarding, "now THAT'S the mother fucking unasked question that flew RIGHT over your head!" How exactly did it fly over my head if it was never asked? Wouldn't it have had to exist to go over my head? Wow you are not smart. Trump loves the uneducated for a reason.
Regarding, "do you REALLY think an honest candidate can win in a playing field where EVERYONE is a liar, cheat, and thief," But if there is an honest candidate then not everyone is a liar, cheat, thief. I know you think you have a point, but it only seems that way because you are stupid. I'm going to keep supporting honest candidates and you are going to continue to support Trump... because you are stupid. Good luck with your conman. Thanks for the laugh. It has been amusing talking to you in a way but I'm done with you. I'd have a better chance educating my dog so I'm to stop wasting my breathe on you.
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Azoyag regarding, "the bottom 10 will have a negligible impact in the election." Look at how close the popular vote for this election was? If everyone gets a vote that counts the same a politician would be foolish to neglect any segment of society.
Regarding, "There will be little incentive to campaign in these states," If you say so. I disagree. Your argument comes off quite hypocritical in that you ignore the fact that the EC gives little incentive to campaign in the largest states in the union like Cali, Texas or NY. Considering a politician has limited time and resources why would any Presidential candidate campaign in any of those states? And these are the largest states in the country but you don't seem to care that they get ignored. There is no perfect system that ensures a politician is going to campaign in Wyoming. There is only perfect fairness in the vote. People living in Wyoming get to have a vote just like anyone else in the country and their vote gets to count just as much as everyone else even if they don't get campaign rallies.
Regarding, "Win California, and your opponent..." So seem to be thinking that all Californias would vote the same. There are Republicans in California you know. And it would be nice if their vote meant something. With the EC they may as well stay home and that would have just as much impact on the election.
Regarding, "Of course, I'm not going to discuss what's fair and what is not" Why not? Fairness isn't a complicated topic. You don't have to be born in the US to have an opinion on what is fair. I suspect it has more to do with fairness clearly being against you.
Regarding, "But the EC does allow better representation for the smaller states," Of course it does. It allows unfair representation. No vote should have more value than any others. No one should have more say than any others. The EC doesn't doesn't disproportionately help small states as much as it disproportionately helps SWING states.
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Zach regarding, "You forgot to mention that 57% of the U.S. population lives in those 11 States" I didn't forget to mention shit. The point that you seem to ignore is that the EC doesn't do what fans of the EC claim it does.
Regarding, "I believe that's a majority is it not?" Yes it would be a majority of the country. Why do you assume all of those people vote the exact same? I tend to think some of those people would want to vote independently of one another. For example California has a way of always going for the democrats, but Republicans in the state should be able to have their votes count and matter and that is impossible with the EC.
Regarding, "Guess you just thought that was useless information." It certainly is with the way you provide it. Again you think that those people would vote exactly the same. And now you, the guy defending the EC think what the majority of the country has to say is important. Hypocrite much?
Regarding, "your argument as a whole is based on the premise of the United States being Democratic. It's a Republic" My argument isn't based on labels. I don't care about labels. I care about policy. The only label I would use to describe a system where the person getting the most votes loses is moronic.
Regarding, "to prevent mob rule" and "people succumbing to groupthink" You "prevent mob rule" by making some votes count more than others and prevent "groupthink" by telling some people their votes don't get to count as much as others. However you want to do it what you are doing is justifying a system where some votes count differently than others.
Regarding, "You seem to completely ignore that point." You absolutely reinforced my point but don't seem to understand that you did.
Regarding, "I'm fighting for individual rights." No. You are fighting against the right of some people to have a meaningful vote.
Regarding, "I don't dismiss people just because they didn't use perfect English." I didn't dismiss anyone even if I was dismissive. I addressed the guy who wrote a wall of text even if was a pain in the ass because it is tough to follow a wall of text. It was also noteworthy that in that wall of text part of their argument revolved around thinking he was brilliant and others were not and that is how, in part, he tried to justify thinking his vote was important while others were not.
Regarding, "You don't understand the United States government and how it operates and I suggest you learn a bit more before responding." I do understand it. It is just that I have a problem with and want to see it changed. The idea that because I want it to be different I don't understand is very simplistic and moronic.
Regarding, "He represents 100% of the United States Citizens." Thanks for clearing that up. I'm not sure why you think I thought differently. And since he represents 100% of citizens, 100% of citizens should have a say in electing him rather than just the citizens who live in swing states.
Regarding, "Not 51, 49, 27 or any other number you care or more likely don't to pull out of thin air." This was hilarious considering you are pulling those numbers out of thin air. Thanks for the laugh.
Regarding, "I would rather a president that tries to bring us together or no president at all, THAN YOUR SYSTEM that would happily suppress and represent 51 over 49." The EC does all that huh? A popular vote President would be the devil and the EC vote President would be like Jesus because of some sort of twisted logic in your head huh?
Regarding, "Either we all get represented" You say this like you want it but you use it to defend the EC and a system where huge segments of the population don't get represented.
Regarding, "repeating the mistakes of history." Way to close it out with another joke. The guy who wants to keep on letting the person getting the least votes win wants to keep repeating this mistake.
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Mopar I want to quit you. You are so not worth the time but I concede I have a hard time letting stupid go unanswered and with you there is just so much stupid.
Regarding, "PC" You have no fucking idea what the words you are using mean do you? To a dipshit like you somebody is "PC" if they disagree with you. I am not PC. I don't give a fuck about being PC. You should be able to tell this by my original reply but you can't because you are a fucking moron. I don't give a fuck about trying to not to hurt people feelings. I care about telling it like it is. You are fucking retarded.
Regarding, "it's you that is the problem not me." Again, it is because you are dumb as fuck and a complete mental midget that you say things like this. You simply are not smart.
Regarding, "I go to work to better myself" Nobody goes to work to "better themself." People go to school to better themselves. They go to work to pay the bills and make money. You say you go to work to "better myself," because, again, you are a moron.
Regarding, "to pay for these dip shits to go play in the snow." God damn you are stupid. Do you bother to bitch at the billions of dollars of tax dollars that go to big oil and gas? Do you bother to bitch about the fact that they don't pay their fair share and as a result your moronic ass is forced to pay more? No. You know why? Because you are dumb as fuck blaming peaceful protests because you are simply not smart enough to understand the world around you.
Regarding, "how come I can't have an opinion?" You get to have an opinion. As do I. My opinion is that you are dumb as fuck. Maybe you need a safe space from me so that you can hide in it because you are a fucking hypocrite.
Regarding, "it's dumb." Yes. Your opinion is dumb.
Regarding, "They are not doing anything" The fact that the pipeline is currently stopped proves, again, that you are a moron unable to comprehend even the simplest of ideas.
Regarding, "PC... ignorant little babies who cry" This is funny while you cry like a little bitch with a skinned knee.
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Mopar regarding, "so all you can do is call names and swear." That is not all I've done. You only think it is all I've done because you are dumb.
Regarding, "prove your point." I have and you thinking I haven't only proves it further.
Regarding, "it is very ignorant that you feel the only way to better yourself is to go to school." Damn you are stupid. I never said going to school is the only way to better yourself. I talked of it as an example of a way to better yourself. Fuck you are stupid incapable of understanding simple thoughts.
Regarding, "how is that even possibly the truth." It's not. That is why I didn't say it. You don't understand the words I use because you are not smart.
Regarding, "There are many things to make you better like work ethic," A person with a good work ethic is a better person. But the act of work ethic doesn't serve to, "better myself."
Regarding, "common sense" You can't create or destroy common sense. You either have it or you don't. You obviously don't have it.
Regarding, "entrepreneurial skills." Again remember what you originally said. You said, "I go to work to better myself" Myself as in the person. It is funny you think are making a decent point here. You are in fact only proving my point that you are stupid.
Regarding, "have fun with that one" You are stupid but you are funny. I love how you think you are having a drop the mic moment but you are only proving how dumb you are.
Regarding, "so I can see you're upset so I did my job and showed exactly how you people react to a little truth or another opinion." LMAO. You think things like this because you are dumb as fuck.
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Duck there is so much wrong with everything you say its tough to know where to begin but I guess I'll try...
"Sanders lost fair and square" Do you really believe this? Are you really so blind? Ug. I'm one sentence in and I'm already questioning why I'm bothering. If you don't already realize the system is rigged and not fair I have to wonder why I'm bothering.
Superdelegates biased the game before it began. I could be willing to accept superdelegates and their role in the process if, and only if, they would keep their fking mouths shut during the election process. To have
nearly 500 superdelegates pledge their support to Hillary before any of us mere peasants were allowed to vote is completely unacceptable. It biases everything going forward and corrupts the entire election process tipping the scales of all elections to follow. It allows corrupt and lazy newsmedia to report Hillary as having an insurmountable lead, creating a sense of inevitability and suppressing voter turnout... AS INTENDENDED AND COMPLETELY UNFAIR to anyone but the willfully stupid such as yourself. There are more reasons why the system is unfair but why am I even bothering with you really. I'd rather save the wasted effort.
"by which she lost to Barack Obama in 2008." Arguments such as this have always been the idiots way of justifying injustice throughout all of history. Just because something has been does nothing to justify its
existence or fairness. You may as well be a confederate arguing slavery is fine because, "that's just the way it has always been."
"Why must he incite volatile people and provoke useless rage?" The only person inciting rage is you. Stupidity, lies, and muddying the waters by people like you piss me off. Unless you would like to be more
specific about why you claim he incites volatile people when he time and again denounces violence. Don't bother it's rhetorical. We both know you are liar like your queen who has absolutely nothing to back up your BS claim.
"he still can’t manage to disagree with people without being disagreeable." You need to look at yourself in the mirror and think about what you see before you say things like this. I admit that I can be quite disagreeable because morons like you piss me off and I have no problem telling you that you are a fking idiot. But I also don't go around and tell others how they are being disagreeable because I am not a complete fking hypocrite like you.
"The parties are private organizations. They get to set the rules, " Every now and then you say something that isn't complete BS. The problem with this statement is that you say it as an effort to justify injustice.
Just because they get to set the rules does not mean that the rules are inherently fair. They have nothing to do with one another. For example let's talk basketball since it was just in the news. Let's say the NBA decided to change the rules and that from now on Cleveland gets to start each game with 10 points (the NBA dubs them superdelegate points). That is within their power. They too are a private organization. Some teams would even be able to win some games against them. Would it be fair though? Obviously not... unless you are dumb as duck.
"lies about her." Have I lied about her at all? You might want to consider that she is called a liar because she is a fking liar. It isn't just a right wing conspiracy. And her being corrupt is also not a right wing
conspiracy... she just is corrupt as fk. She has no principles. There is nothing she wouldn't say or do to be President. She just says what she thinks people want to hear.
"You, however, want the rules changed because your guy isn't winning." No. I want the rules changed because the rules are unfair. I, unlike your queen, have principles that I hold regardless of how they might affect me or my candidate. I am willing to accept losing but I am unwilling to accept cheating and unfairness.
"Maybe you should stop blaming the DNC," and "It's not the DNC's job to help Bernie win." The DNC on May 26, 2015... "Our goals in the coming months will be to frame the Republican field and the eventual nominee early and to provide a contrast between the GOP field and HRC." THAT'S ON MAY 26 2015! They go on to say, "Use specific hits to muddy the waters around ethics, transparency and campaign finance attacks on HRC." Yup, it wasn't the DNC's job to help Bernie win... it was the DNC's job to help Hillary win. And that wasn't according to me... that was according to THEM you ducking idiot. I suspect you might be one of their paid operatives. This also isn't just some conspiracy theory. POS David Brock thinks that this is good politics and has spent over a million dollars paying trolls like you because he, like the POS he works for HRC, have no ethics. For your sake I hope that you are being paid for your willful ignorance and are not really so ducking stupid.
"Sanders supporters suggesting that polls point to him as the best nominee - is ridiculous." The only thing that is ridiculous is you. We are talking about EXIT POLLS. Do you know what those are? Are you smart enough to know the difference? They aren't polls conducted a week before an election or something. They are polls taken where people are voting the day of an election. They absolutely should be in line with election results and when they are not something is terribly wrong. Go to trustvotedotorg to learn more. From them, " when exit poll data varies more than 2% from electronic vote totals, the electronic vote totals are questionnable. If fact, 2% is used as the boundary by the US government when determining that the election in another country other than the US has possibly been stolen." Discrepancy in favor of Clinton from exit polls on March 1, 2016; Georgia 11.9%, Virginia 4.3%, Vermont 1.1%, Mass 8%, Alabama 13.9%, Tenn 8.3%, Oklahoma -6.1%, Ark 5.2%, Tex 6.4%. That is what we are talking about. Something is clearly wrong with this picture unless you are a blind moron who either actually thinks we are talking about polls conducted before an election, or more likely the more I think about it, just a POS muddying the water so that hopefully others won't be able to see the truth.
Duck you. You suck at life. I've wasted so much more time on you than you deserve. I'm done caring what you think or have to say. You are a lost cause and not worth any more of my time. Good luck with your POS candidate. You deserve each other.
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Purplefish regarding, "Everyone was pro fracking for the last 10 years." That is lie just like the queen you support.
Regarding, "HRC at least claims she has learned to not be against it." So the fact that she lies about it is suppose to make me feel better? It doesn't. Weird you think that is an acceptable excuse.
Regarding, "She's an old school politician that "triangulates" and doesn't pick a position until it's politically advantageous." In other words she has zero principles of her own. She isn't in for any kind of beliefs of her own or desire to do the right thing but for the ability to hold the power. She puts her finger in the wind to test how the public feels about certain issues but on others, the issues really important to her like going to war everywhere, the public can really go fuck itself.
Regarding, "Second opensecrets is a whack job website." LOL.
Regarding, "Yeah, destroying cell phones , emails etc is NO different what's happened in the past 14 years. Have you been asleep ? Powell, Rice, Bush / Cheney administration kept private servers AND destroyed millions of emails." The devil is in the details that you obviously are ignornant about or are conveniently ignoring. Even I agreed that she was just doing business as usual that is a fucking pathetic defense. You may as well be a lawyer arguing for your murderer cop that, "that's how it's always been... cops murder people therefor this is what you should expect."
Regarding, "I doubt you were complaining about them." I assure I was and I'm not going to hypocritically ignore it because "my team" (not that they are my team anymore) is doing it.
Regarding, "we need laws to prevent this," We do. They are called, among other things, FOIA laws that Hillary broke.
Regarding, "The Clintons have about a million loser Repubs going through their Trash ( google Trey Gawdy and Bengazi for instance ) so she was rightly defensive on this issue." Cool excuses and rationalizations bro. If she didn't do anything wrong she shouldn't have any reason to have to hide everything.
Regarding, "Election fraud was a large % caused by incompetence and a smaller % caused by people already being biased towards HRC." I can't believe you are actually willing to accurately admit that there was election fraud during the primary but, again, as usual, your rationalizations and explanations are pure shit.
Regarding, "Bernie, he wasn't a Dem" Who has Bernie caucused with over the years? Who has Bernie voted with over the years? How do democratic voters feel about the policies he champions? Bernie is far more democratic than the "democratic" party.
Regarding, "there's nothing wrong with DNC people from wanting a Dem to get the nomination" Wanting is one thing... colluding is another and is against their own fucking rules.
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Ashton. I agree that there was a lot of voter fraud. Specifically exit polling results, when they weren't canceled, look scandalous. I even mention these issues briefly in my original comment, "Clinton, the DNC... cheated."
O-I-C, no I do not think you see. Regarding, "That's what you would do or be." No that is not who I do or be, but that is who many Americans do or be. Do you really not get the point? I absolutely love that he is genuine. But the point, again, is that many, many, many Americans are easily distracted by the something like the hair and many, many, many Americans are entrenched in party politics who are loyal first the DNC and suspect of someone who hasn't been calling themselves one.
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Niklas regarding, "Not sure if you noticed but that statement is the same Trump used to talk about Mexican immigrants and is known to be one of his most Racist statements to this day." I was aware that my statement was very Trumpian. It was done so as satire to express my anger in a somewhat humorous way. It is noteworthy that my statement can not be called racist as you imply. Cops are not a race. Do you get offended when politicians say things like "we need to kill terrorists before they kill us."? I'm betting not because you accept that terrorists are bad people. You do not accept the fact that a much greater percentage of cops are evil people as well. You likely think they are heroes who got into the job to serve and protect. You are wrong outside of a tiny, tiny minority. Regarding, "Can you see that that type of statement helps fuel anger" Yes I do. I am not a big fan of doing so but like terrorists and criminals deserve anger so does much of the gestapo police force here in America deserve anger because way too big a percentage of them are criminals in blue. Am I advocating going out and killing them. No. I am not. But the police in America need sweeping changes immediately. Regarding, "a group of people that are already heavily criticised" Not in my opinion. Although there are people like myself who heavily criticize them there are also plenty of apologists who make excuses for police who kill unarmed civilians. Regarding, "is in no way helpful to the situation?" The first step in solving a problem is accepting a problem exists. Regarding, "Unless of course you have some way to isolate these criminals?" BLM has a list of 10 things they want to address the problems; 1 end broken windows policing, 2 community oversight, 3 limit the use of force, 4 police independently investigated and prosecuted, 5 community representation, 6 universal body cams, 7 additional training, 8 end for-profit policing, 9 demilitarization, and 10 fair police union contracts. I've posted this list elsewhere and you wouldn't believe the blow-back I get from racists and police apologists. I think the list is quite common sense. Notice that nowhere on the list is killing cops or race ever mentioned in the list of 10.
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Samm regarding, "he is estimated to be worth around 4.5 billion" I'm talking about how smart he is. You are talking about money and his net worth. I assure you these are different things. The number one thing that enable the accumulation of wealth is having wealth in the first place. It takes money to make money. It doesn't take intelligence nearly as much. Trump has bankrupt casinos. Do you realize how hard that is?
Regarding, "you're focusing on steaks" I'm focusing on his intelligence. The steaks were just a good example of someone being dumb as fuck.
Regarding, "I noticed how you don't deny that you said he had little chance to win." I didn't think this was important to the discussion. I again don't think it has much to do with the topic I was talking about about his intelligence. I never said he had little chance but that has more to do with my opinion of the American public than it has to do with Trump.
Regarding, "You voted for the DNC" Morons love to assume things. First the DNC wasn't running for office. I voted for Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein. I never voted for the DNC. The DNC is a disgrace.
Regarding, "Both the DNC and the GOP are terrible organizations" Well we agree on something at least.
Regarding, "You pretend the DNC is better" Where do you get this shit? Because I didn't talk about how the DNC sucks? They weren't the fucking topic. There are lots of things that I think but didn't bother to talk when my point is that Donald Trump is a fucking moron.
Regarding, "Finally, you back a candidate who objectively screwed Bernie out of delegates" Did I? I understand why you backed Trump. You are both idiots.
Regarding, "You deserve everything that came your way." This is funny and ironic. Remember you said this when Trump sucks balls.
Regarding, "You pretend he's dumb with a superiority complex" I'm not pretending shit. He just is dumb and acts to feed his ego.
Regarding, "but you backed a candidate" You might want to consider that every person who thinks Trump is a fucking moron didn't vote for Hillary. Before the election I was saying that I preferred Trump win so that the country might get a true progressive in 4 years rather than another corporate stooge. But don't let reality get in the way of your preconceived notions and dumbass assumptions. Don't assume you know everything about me because I'm rightfully calling your hero a fucking moron.
Regarding, "had every outlet and organization behind her, with billions of dollars" Try to remember that the corporate media gave your king BILLIONS in free media and exposure. They would cover Trumps empty podium while Sanders would be speaking in front of record crowds.
Regarding, "I only voted for him because..." Yeah. You are part of the problem. Another fucking moron who thought there were only 2 options. There weren't. Stop being part of the problem, refuse to give your vote for dogshit, and be part of the solution in the future.
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Kuroi regarding, "He either believes the things the authoritarian racist/sexist part of the left say, or was pandering to them." This is so fucking vague and absurd. Are you capable of being specific? Again I care about policy, priorities, and ethics. How does this BS affect those specific things?
Regarding, "Try to not be intentionally dishonest to avoid what I obviously said." There was nothing obvious about what you said and there still isn't.
Regarding, "Obviously when I say that I mean his policatian postions." then talk about his political positions with some sort of specificity instead of complete vagueness. Or don't. Whatever.
Regarding, "That's obviously in no way what I said" I admit I have a hard time understanding anything you say and was making fun of your idiocy. I guess you didn't find it funny.
Regarding, "dismiss what I said without arguing what I said." You didn't say anything of substance from what I can tell and you still haven't. Again, do you have any thoughts about policy, priorities, ethics or just vague BS smears?
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Kuroi regarding, "Again, intentionally still being intellectually dishonest" If you say so. You might want to consider that I just don't think much of anything you have said because I haven't. It is difficult to respond to fragmented, moronic "thoughts."
Regarding, "I didn't say anything of substance about my original comment yet because you refuse acknowledge what I said and instead pretend that what I said made no sense." Huh? I'm not pretending you don't make sense. You just don't make any fucking sense. You are funny at least especially when your next point is calling me retarded for poorly chosen words. Pot meet kettle.
Regarding, "Also you said ''Again I care about policy, priorities, and ethics'' twice, and the first time you never said it prior, so you just look
completely retarded." Ok, you got me. These were not perfectly picked words. I don't write here to be published. I don't proofread my shit. I write to try and convey a message. I may not have said, "I care about policy, priorities, and ethics" prior to saying, "Again..." but I did say, "Talk about policy instead please. Policy actually means something" to someone else. That was what I was referring to even if I concede I picked my words poorly. And you certainly are an expert in "completely retarded" aren't you so that does sting.
Regarding, "able to understand what the sentence ''He is almost always wrong on race and gender.'' in the context..." Do you really not understand how vague and meaningless that insult was? I am able to understand that you are trying to be insulting but you were doing so very poorly. Is he wrong about race and gender because he is too far to the left on those issues? Is he wrong about race and gender because he is too far to the right on those issues? Is he wrong about race and gender because it isn't actually an issue and he thinks so? Is he wrong about race and gender because it is an issue and he doesn't think so? If you do not realize that those words were essentially meaningless, well that makes sense considering, but I can't understand what the fuck you are trying to say unless you offer a little more to your words other than the equivalent of "Bernie Bad!"
Regarding, "a IQ higher than negative 5," "your so illiterate," and "than you shouldn't." Thanks for the laughs dipshit. Nothing completely retarded about that. Maybe you shouldn't be interacting with others.
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will be my end, Hillary is corrupt corporate POS. I'm thrilled she isn't President. That said I'm sad Trump is President. But as the US has terrible policies like war, war, war, war, war, war, fucking over the people, and sucking the corporations dicks I'd prefer the face of shit policies be that of Trump.
Hopefully we can get someone decent in next time. This election was lost when the DNC rigged the primary for their POS candidate.
Regarding, "Donald Trump isn't a dictator" No. He isn't a dictator.
Regarding, "Trump is to Muslims and Mexicans what Hitler was to the Jews." Oh for fucks sakes has Trump committed a holocaust? Then fuck off with your hyperbole.
Regarding, "He even wants to nuke the Middle East to take out ISIS, kill their families," Trump is a fucking liar you know that right? Of course you do but you don't bother to remember that he is a liar when he says something you think makes your case. I know how Hillary governs because she has already done it and it is fucking terrible. For all I know about Trump he has just been pandering to the extreme right to get votes and he will govern like the self described democrat he was not long ago. Time will tell how he governs. I'm not optimistic I can't know for sure til I see it. I could be sure Hillary was going to suck because that is all she has done her entire life... suck.
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I'm going to give you guys more time and attention than you deserve.
The biggest problem with our politics and political system is money corrupting everything. The biggest problem with our voters is a complete inability to be impartial and objective. People have their "teams" and fight for them, hearing only what they want to hear and ignoring the rest. The establishment has successfully pit half the country against the other half. As long as we fight each other we don't fight them. The best political commentary comes from fucking South Park. There is more truth coming from a cartoon than from all the MSM combined.
Dirktha regarding, "Not all people living below the southern boarder (sic) are brown" Wow. Brilliant. Not all people living below the southern are brown. Thank you for enlightening me to this obvious truth. Now if you would like take a moment and go back to read my comment you might want to note that never have I said that all people living below the southern border are brown. You, like too many from both sides, hear what you want to hear and tune out the rest. I guess to you I also said all people in Canada are white even though I never said such a thing or meant to imply it either.
Regarding, "you racist bigot" I'm not on your team, I don't support Trump, I called him a racist, that made you mad so you call me a racist bigot. So cliche and sad. Why exactly am I a racist bigot? I could use a good laugh in these sad times. Humor me.
Regarding, "The fact is most illegals and drugs come from the southern border." Since you clearly are interested in facts here are some more facts for you. Immigration is currently at about a net zero. That means that for every illegal immigrant entering the country, one illegal immigrant is leaving the country. Canada, not Mexico, is currently about to legalize marijuana nationwide. And not all illegals, drugs, and dangers come from the southern border, and when you are only willing to address one border while ignoring the other you are going to be rightfully called a racist. Having principles means applying them equally across the board. Being racist means picking and choosing when to apply those "principles."
Elana regarding, "According to the Department of Homeland Security..." According the department of Homeland security most illegal immigrants come on planes and you can't build a wall high enough that a plane can't fly over it. If illegal immigration is the issue as you guys pretend what are you doing about addressing this fact? Nothing of course because it isn't really about illegal immigration as you pretend. Facts are not as important as how those facts affect your team. And you cherry pick certain facts while ignoring others and try to present reality in the best possible light for your side.
Regarding, "Of course I admit our legal immigration system is broken." And you don't seem to care. Never mind that we are a nation of immigrants. Never mind what it says on the Statue of Liberty. You got yours and you want to protect it. Fuck everyone else.
Dirk regarding, "To that racist bigot Clint Holmes saying all people below the southern border are brown." Except that I never said all people below the southern border are brown. There is a word for what you are doing just there. It is called lying and it is disgraceful. Elana I'm curious why you don't bother to call him out for blatantly lying like this? Actually I'm not. Again the answer is obvious. Lying when your team does it is overlooked. You are only looking to call out the other side for lying.
Concerned Citizen is certainly baffled why anyone would vote for Hillary because she is a corrupt liar. Well it doesn't help when your candidate too is a corrupt liar no matter how much you want to bury your head in the sand for it. Hillary and Trump are two peas in a pod. Birds of a feather flock together. Hillary went to his wedding. Trump spoke to Bill Clinton immediately before announcing he was running. They are both garbage and anyone supporting either of them is a fucking fool. Hillary supporters are able to rationalize the queens shit because they just point at Trump and say the same shit but it is always different than their own shit because of team identity.
My political identity is as far left as you can possible go but I would support someone who is the polar opposite of me politically who is a good person over a corrupt POS terrible person on my "side."
In general the absolute least people should want from a politician is that they are not garbage. Hillary and Trump are both garbage and everyone who supports either of them is part of the problem instead of being part of the solution.
But what do I know... I'm just a racist bigot going to watch football now. Sigh.
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Dirk regarding, "It is about security from a specific type of person... brown people." Yes. I did say this. Please consider the context. I obviously was not calling all people south of the border brown nor was I, in any way, trying to suggest so. To imply that that was what I was trying to say is utterly absurd. That particular comment was an effort to portray the mentality of a person who cares about one border and not the other.
Again, you must be consistent and cannot pick and choose. If you think that was my meaning with those words did you understand me saying, "while ignoring white peoples illegal immigration" to mean that I was saying all Canadians are white? Because, again, that was not in any way what I was trying to say or imply and if you want to suggest it was that is fucking ridiculous.
Regarding, "Illegals are not coming?" Illegals are coming, but according to the department of homeland security illegals are leaving at essentially the exact same pace they are coming in. Illegal immigrants are not innately terrible people as Trump portrayed when began his run. Most come here in search of a better way of life and the opportunity to get a piece of the American pie like I'm guessing your ancestors did. Some of course are bad people but I think the percentage of those is somewhere very near the percentage of bad people who are born in the US.
Regarding, "How can the Government keep tabs on people that are illegally crossing the border." Aren't you the same person who said, "According to the Department of Homeland Security, statistically speaking, most of our illegal immigrants come from: Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala Honduras, Philippines, India, Korea, Ecuador, Brazil, China, and lastly, "Other." In 2014, Mexicans made up 52% of all unauthorized immigrants." Do you understand why you are being a hypocrite here? You accept what the government says when it backs up the case you want to make but all of a sudden when the government says something that goes against the case you want to make you question what they say. You can't have it both ways if you are intellectually honest. They either can or can't keep tabs on people that are illegally crossing the border to you.
As for answering your very disingenuous question I will say this. It is obviously an imperfect science. But our government, much to my dismay, pays very, very close attention to everyone in this country. It is not very difficult for them to know when non US citizens come into the country on a plane and leave on a plane. Of course there are also people coming and going across the border. (some illegally, some legally and then they stay too long) And again, the government is far too good at tracking people in this nation even if they are not perfect at it. I don't accept the word and numbers as gospel but I think they have a very good idea what there are talking about regarding the issue.
Regarding, "And yes a majority of illegals and drugs come from the southern border." Even so that means the minority of illegals and drugs come from the northern border and you can't want to do nothing about it if you want to claim what you care about is illegals and drugs.
Regarding, "yes those people legally immigrated into the USA" I think Native Americans would have a very different take on this than you. I would also like to point out that I doubt any of these people cared about the legality of their decision and would have immigrated regardless. These are people in search of a better life whether it was legal or illegal. That type of "crime" is akin to speeding.
Regarding, "now is it fair to those waiting to legally enter the USA for someone to just cut in line" No. It isn't. But I get it, especially when, like I've pointed out and you have agreed, the legal immigration system is broken. And if you or I were outside the US and wanted to come here and knew this I don't doubt you or I wouldn't commit the same "crime."
Regarding, "and still receive many of the benefits citizens receive?" Illegal immigrants are not eligible for essentially any benefits of being a citizen despite paying taxes when they get here. As soon as they go to a store and pay tax on an item they are paying into the system but get nothing for it the way you or I do.
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Dirk, I've really screwed the pooch. I need to make another correction. You actually are a hypocrite. I cite, "How can the Government keep tabs on people that are illegally crossing the border." (without a question mark even thou this clearly is a question, maybe I should ask to see your birth certificate), "majority of illegals... crossed the border," "yes a majority of illegals and drugs come from the southern border," and "The fact is most illegals and drugs come from the southern border."
To be clear, you are questioning the government's ability to "keep tabs on people that are illegally crossing the border" at the same time that you, DirkThaAmazingMFwhoknowsthingsthegovcannot, "knows" illegals are here by way of coyote, mostly from the southern border, and they bringing drugs, and that's "the fact."
So in fact you are a hypocrite. I take back my retraction and apology. Thank goodness. I'm not sure if you could tell but I really did not like apologizing to you. I think it had something to do with me being a racist and bigot.
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Wilson regarding, "Obama has deported many Mexicans," Understatement. More than any President before him.
Regarding, "the Republicans don't think he's doing enough!" Republicans are like you. Lots of talk. How do you think they could make the situation worse?
Regarding, "Plus he is going to build a budget busting wall." It's fine. Mexico will pay for it. Seriously thou do you have any idea how our government works? How do you think Trump would be able to do this on his own?
Regarding, "Also no one thought Trump would get this far, so anything he says has to be taken deadly serious you fucking r-tard." I love it when you call me names. I don't know if you realized it but I actually do not like Trump. You can tell because, in part, I won't be voting for him. I'd rather not be defending the buffoon. Do you have anything to say about your queen? Other than NOT TRUMP!
Regarding, "Oh and did I forget to mention that Trump is supported by fucking CONFEDERATES AND NAZIS?" It is funny you think this is an issue or something. Confederates and nazis get to vote. I am not surprised they prefer Trump but they really don't have much to do with anything. They do not have any real power in society. I think the endorsement of goldman-sachs is much more important for example but I wasn't going to bring it up because I'm not tarded like you.
Regarding, "I never met anyone as fucking stupid as you. I'm almost in awe." It only seems that way to you because you are an idiot. You are unable to have thoughts more complex than NOT TRUMP! But you are amusing in the way a fool was amusing to kings back in the day. Maybe queen Hillary could bring the practice back and give you a job.
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Auceza regarding, "If Trump doesn't deliver what he promised, i won't support him anymore." You strike me as the type who can rationalize almost anything. Consider me a skeptic of this statement.
Regarding, "Actually there is no hint that he won't keep his word." Let's just consider the past 24 hours shall we. Trump has previously said, "I don't settle cases. I don't do it because that's why I don't get sued very often, because I don't settle, unlike a lot of other people. You know what, let's see what happens in court." But that was what he said while campaigning for office. He didn't even wait til taking office before proving he was lying. There is literally no reason to think he will keep his word about anything. He is capable of contradicting himself in the SAME FUCKING SENTENCE. That is not easy to do.
Regarding, "I don't take rumours and gossip serious." I wish you could realize how similar you sound to Hillary supporters. You are just fucking delusional and capable of believing whatever you want to believe. He is a conman and you have bought into his BS.
Regarding, "Jimmy" Jimmy is the man because he says what true progressives like myself think. If you think so little of him you should just fuck off.
Regarding, "Trump doesn't put all his cards on the table" Neither did Hillary. She too had a public and a private face.
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Oculos regarding, "Try to keep your head up, we really have no idea where this could lead." The fact that we have no idea what is going to be next is what scares me. I expect Hillary will win rather easily (whether or not she has the votes). I do not think that is going to go well for the country. My best hope is that Republicans continue obstruction and she will be unable to get anything done. I fear they will get things done and that none of it will be for the better. I fear another bank bubble bursting soon. I fear tensions will, at best, get worse with Russia and, at worse, we will go to war with Russia. I fear continued dependence on fossil fuels and unwillingness to move toward renewable resources. I fear she will try to privatize social security to "save it." I think Obama signs the TPP but if he doesn't she will. I fear she will overturn Citizen's United (just kidding, like she would do that).
I fear that terrible times under Hillary will lead to great backlash against the "left" even thou Hillary does not represent the left. I fear this ultimately leads to someone who is much worse than Trump following her from the right.
Hopefully I'm just way wrong. Hopefully she is a great president and great for the country. It won't be the first time. I was very wrong to think that Obama was going to deliver on his promise of hope and change. Maybe I'll be wrong again about this. Time will tell.
Regarding, "two emails" Are these from wikileaks or where did you get them? I'm curious to know what you are talking about but I value my privacy and don't want to get love notes from Erik and Bob. If you have links that would be better for me.
Regarding, "it's good to see people who aren't easily swayed by manipulative words." There arguments are so terrible. We are suppose to believe, for example, that the Saudi Arabian government was giving millions of dollars to the Clinton foundation because they cared about humanitarian efforts?!? Who buys that? I guess there aren't any foundations in their own country they thought worthy to donate to. And the weapons deals that were going on at the same time were mere coincidence. Who could possibly believe that?
There was another one of Hillary's CTR trolls who was saying that Trump was "100 times worse than Hilter." I fucking hate Trump but 100 times worse than Hilter?!? How is anyone suppose to take that seriously? I am so much more willing to believe in aliens. Hillary and Trump might be aliens for all I can tell. They sure don't seem human.
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Regarding, "Tulsi endorsed Bernie in 2016,way before Bernie endorsed the Queen of war mongering Hillary Clinton." What? Apples to oranges comparison. I'd elaborate but I already waste far too much of my life telling you why what you are saying is wrong, you not understanding it, and you thinking you are dunking on me while being an idiot.
Regarding, "not hate the troops" I literally just said I don't hate them. I just told you why I question their judgement but it just goes in one ear and out the other doesn't it?
Regarding, "Bernie's #1 reason for running is not ending wars but Medicare for all." Huh? Bernie can walk and chew gum at the same time. And who cares what someone says is the most important issue to them when I can tell you exactly why they are inferior on that topic. Nevermind my "hatred" for her service. How about her judgement? The Iraq war isn't ancient history. It was after she held public office... does she just get a mulligan on that or something? If Joe Biden said ending war was his number one issue would that just make his record go away or some shit?
Regarding, "You show your hypocrisy every time you post"
Regarding, "you have to get the last word and are very thin skinned" I straight up tell what I do and why I do it. What you are saying is wrong. And it has real world implications. Candidates don't operate in vacuum. They don't get to share delegates. Joe Biden didn't run in 2016 because of his kid, he didn't run because splitting the ballot is a real thing. I wish you were only 'the earth is flat' kind of stupid. That type of shit isn't nearly as dangerous. You are just another jerkoff trying to get people to vote against their own interests for terrible reasons whether or not you are smart enough to understand that that is what you are doing.
Regarding, "you're more like Trump than you think" I don't pretend to be some nice guy. I'm a dick. I don't pretend to be otherwise. You actually are like trump in that you are a hypocrite. Look at the crying you do about how mean I am to you... as if that's all I do. I straight up tell you why I'm being mean while doing it.
Regarding, "On many issues Tulsi is left of Bernie." No. She's not. And if she said she were she hasn't earned my trust the way Bernie has. Get back to me after she has a tenth of the consistency he does over time. Instead your antiwar candidate had to evolve on war after going to war herself. I war Bernie had the judgement to say no to. It's kindof a big deal unless you are the one who is an actual hypocrite.
Regarding, "Bernie just isn't tough enough to win." May as well work for the republicans with the stupid shit you say.
Regarding, "He needs someone like Tulsi to do his fighting for him." LMFAO. With friends like tulsi and warren who are both splitting the progressive vote knowing the establishment is going to fuck him instead of actually supporting him for president and instead supporting themselves, who needs enemies?
Regarding, "So sad, my healthcare sucks." Your education as well.
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Lucky regarding, "you are fighting a losing battle by trying to fix either of the two parties from the inside" I disagree. I do not claim it will be easy. I do not claim it will be fair. I just claim it is possible and far easier than trying to start a new party from scratch or get the public on the side of the green party. And not only do I think it is the easiest way to get a party that actually represents the people but it would also end a corporate party. It is a 2 for 1.
Regarding, "you dont understand what I am saying" I'm pretty sure I do. You position is not all that uncommon in forums like this.
Regarding, "its not the politicians who were elected, that are making our laws" This is true only because we have the wrong politicians elected.
Regarding, "The members of the DNC..." You don't need to convince me that the party is dumpster fire and the great majority of democrats should be voted out of office. We agree on that. The place where we differ is that I can see value in people who continue to run as democrats and do not think that all people under that label are to be treated the same way.
Regarding, "so please tell me what good he is serving." Well, Sanders is one vote in getting what we all want... an end to citizens united. Sorry if you thought he could do it all on his own. He can't. You know what he might be able to do all on his own? Take over the "democratic" party. The winner of the parties nomination holds immense power to shape and direct the party. One of the reasons the party is so fucking terrible at the moment and is going to continue to suck for the time being is, in part, because Hillary Clinton "won" the nomination.
The reason Tom Perez is the chair and not Ellison is because Hillary "won." The reason corporate dems were purging progressive dems is because THERE ARE STILL PROGRESSIVES FIGHTING FOR THE SOUL OF THE PARTY. And them being purged was a setback but it is hardly the end of the war. If Sanders or another true progressive wins the nomination in 2020 they get to pick the chair and that chair gets to pick the people under them and so on. Corporate dems can be purged the exact same way progressives were purged but to do that we need a progressive to win the nomination. Sanders is perfectly positioned to do so in 2020.
The establishment is going to do everything they can to try and stop him. And I would appreciate it if you, a progressive, help Sanders instead of holding a grudge against the party and refusing to try to shape them.
Regarding, "why would she want to continue to run in a party..." Because she, like me, think that taking over the party is the way to go. You realize the party is rigged internally. It is. But so is the entire fucking game. The game is also rigged against third parties so it isn't as if you have a path that doesn't also involve overcoming bullshit.
Regarding, "Your way makes no sense, it just keeps us hanging by a thread without any chances of any changes being made in our favor... We need a third party." My way makes no sense? Jill Stein got about 1 percent of the vote against 2 of the most despised HUMANS in the country. I'm not sure why you think your way makes sense. But still I encourage you to go out and build viable 3rd parties. Even if people like me succeed in overtaking the "democratic" party we still should have good, strong 3rd party options to, if nothing else, pull the major parties to the left. BUT THEY ARE RIGHTFULLY PLAN B. WINNING IS IMPORTANT! And they are not going to be winning the presidency in 2020. Sorry but that is just fucking reality.
Regarding, "Punishing the flame?" Yes. Because you care more about the flame (the "democratic" party) than you care about the people. Stop caring so much about a fucking label. CARE ABOUT THE PERSON. Fuck. It really is not so hard to understand.
Regarding, "it doesn't matter how great a candidate might be," No. Just stop. There is nothing you can say after this that would make any fucking sense. The only thing that matters is how great a candidate is.
Regarding, "because the majority of PEOPLE in the Dem party" I'm not talking about the majority of people in the party. The majority of the people in the party suck balls. But I'm not talking about the majority of people. I'm talking about good people. People that represent you but have the audacity to do so labeled as democrats. Support them or you are only refusing to support people who represent you.
Regarding, "are going to continue to work for their donors, NOT us." What about the justice democrats whose donors ARE THE PEOPLE? Are you going to turn a blind eye to them?
Regarding, "the few, and I mean very few, individuals that actually work for and represent us aren't going to get anything accomplished" Yes they need help but not supporting them is hardly helping. And even if Sanders isn't able to pass bills all by himself it sure as fuck helps to have him around so that he can continue to win the battle of ideas like he has currently been doing with medicare for all.
Regarding, "I am trying to prevent some horrific things from happening .. Lets not talk about winning, ok?" Let's not talk about winning? Are you fucking kidding me? Winning is the only way you are going to prevent "horrific things from happening." Because the fact of the matter is that you are doing NOTHING other than feeling good about not voting for dems and patting yourself on the back for not being "fooled" by the party when in fact you are only being a fool who thinks they know all they need to know by looking at a party label.
Regarding, "Time for a third party." They have always been there. You aren't saying anything new. And you don't seem to realize how rigged the entire game is including being against 3rd parties.
Regarding, "I was a registered Democrat for forty years, that came to an end in 2016." You feel betrayed by a shitty presidency by Obama. You feel betrayed by a party that rigged it's primary. Fine. I get that and agree with that. But if you think the answer is to not support good people because they are still democrats then you are fucking insane. Stop thinking about party labels so much. Think about people. Support good people and let the rest of the bullshit fall where it will.
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Regarding, "Corporations," why the fuck is this capitalized? Corporations are not actually people you know.
Regarding, "Lower dividends for shareholders," aka the rich.
Regarding, "Lower Wages for Employee's," holy shit are you stupid. What world do you live in where corporations already aren't paying their employees as little as they possible can?
Regarding, "Higher prices for consumers." So logically to you must think we shouldn't tax them at all right? Because, like I said, you are fucking moron who thinks idiotic things.
Regarding, "I will refrain from profanity because my IQ is over 100." Yeah because whether or not someone swears is what determines if a person is smart or a fucking idiot.
Go back to sucking corporation dick. I don't have time for this bullshit. You are an epic moron. Good luck with that going forward.
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Mark regarding, "what do you mean?" Holy shit. It really is not that fucking complicated. Let me try to break it down with you so that a fucking infant might understand...
The fact of the matter remains that, like I said, "he has done more to expose the rot in the "democratic" party than anyone else on Earth." Would you like to dispute this? Do you disagree with this? Would you like to claim otherwise? I guess so because "Seth Rich" says dipshit.
And the point of that is that, assuming what I said was true, contradicts your original idiotic "points." The fact of the matter is that first step in solving any problem is being able to admit and acknowledge there is a problem. Because of Sanders much of America is now in a place where they actually realize and are forced to face the fact of rampant corruption in their government (specifically the DNC) thanks in large part to Sanders.
Regarding, "doesn't mean he was the big dog that exposed it" Are you fucking retarded? Do you actually think about and believe the stupid shit you say? You are talking about the politician who ran a campaign railing against money in politics, who refused to have a superpac, who called for a "political revolution," who immediately went back to being an independent after his campaign, who talked constantly about income inequality among other things for fucks sake. But apparently you were living in an alternate world where that wasn't the case.
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Odin regarding, "you're really not getting what i'm saying." I think I do. It is just that I wholeheartedly disagree with what you are saying.
Regarding, "i would like to see trump go to jail for his crimes" This all you should be saying. This and only this. But.... you have to add a but after it because you are demonstrating that you don't actually care first and foremost about this.
Regarding, "when weighed against the damage that pence would do as president, justice for trump becomes a secondary consideration" In all honesty I don't care about your rationalization. I've even said so myself that I think Pence may be worse. But to me that is a terrible no good reason to think that seeking justice for Trumps corruption to be secondary. Even if I knew for certain Pence would be worse that is not a rationalization for allowing Trump to go unpunished for corruption BECAUSE THAT IS HAVING PRINCIPLES.
Regarding, "don't tell me i don't care about justice or that i don't have principles" Sorry but I absolutely will while you demonstrate a lack of principles and demonstrate time and again that you don't care about justice as much as you care about not having Pence as President.
Regarding, "perhaps you don't understand what a disaster pence as president would be." People who are willing to sacrifice important principles always think they have good justifications for doing so. It is just that they are wrong.
Regarding, "competent, respected, organized" None of these words actually accurately describe Pence. None. Not even close. He might be more competent, more respected, and more organized than Trump but that really isn't saying very much. And you completely ignore the fact that it would be more difficult for an administration to do things after the previous president was impeached. But again, all this is mute. All this is unimportant to me. I could think Pence would be a fucking nightmare but that doesn't mean I think that is a good reason to let Trump skate on his wrongdoing. That is what having principles actually look like. They don't get tossed under the bus.
Regarding, "it's the lesser of two evils" I can't tell you how much I hate the lesser of two evils bullshit. Whatever you got to do to tell yourself that supporting evil is acceptable. It isn't.
Regarding, "the temporary satisfaction one would get from seeing trump in jail" I won't deny that I would get some satisfaction from Trump being behind bars but it goes way, way beyond that. The bottom line is that people like Trump are emboldened to do what they do because they rightfully don't fear punishment because people like him are not punished. If we ever expect those people to fear punishment we need to actually punish some of them. And there is no better place to start than at the top.
And again... there is the principle of the matter. Corruption needs to be punished. Period. That is what makes it a principle. There are no buts to be added after it. There are no rationalizations and excuses for not doing this. It is what is suppose to be done regardless of other circumstances.
Regarding, "justice, or punishment" Justice IS punishment. There is no justice unless he is punished. Sheesh.
Regarding, "i don't give a fuck about party politics" I concede using the words party politics was a poor choice of words to describe what you are doing. But that does not mean that what you are doing is ok or even a little bit reasonable to me.
Regarding, "you've misunderstood my position" No. I absolutely haven't. I have strongly disagreed with your position.
Regarding, "straw manned me on multiple fronts" The only way I've "strawmaned" you, is when I used the term party politics. But my point is still valid. Even if you are not saying what you are to benefit a specific party you are saying what you are because of politics. Specifically because you think Pence would be worse politically.
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@imnotmike Regarding, "Do you understand burden of proof?" Yes. Do you understand that you are stupid?
Regarding, "If you're claiming Elizabeth Warren was pro dapl, it's up to you to show us the evidence." Holy shit are you stupid. NEVER did I say she was "pro-DAPL." Not once. Like never. How can you not understand this? We have words for a reason and you are using them wrong.
Regarding, "I'm guessing you're a Jimmy Dore guy, huh?" I'm guessing your a Jimmy Dore hater huh? Two can play your retarded game.
Regarding, "Why don't you go try to "help" a 3rd party, ok?" You say this but you are going to be the first person to cry like a bitch and blame 3rd parties when you lose aren't you?
Regarding, "When they feel the need to break down your post and refute every single sentence you wrote individually." That's your problem with me? That I address the shit you say. That I don't just ignore points you've made like you have done to me repeatedly? You entered this thread with blatant lies. You continue to lie. Sorry if you have a problem with me point it out. I don't like it when people ignore the points I make. I treat people how I want to be treated so if I'm going to address your shit I'm going to address all of it. But if you want to think this fact is akin to making some kind of logical argument that would seem about right for you.
Regarding, "Smart people will agree on 90%..." Try to realize that you are a fucking moron. It isn't my fault that literally everything you have said is either a lie or just stupid opinion.
Regarding, "I won't waste my time reading your breakdown of every sentence I wrote. Make a single coherent argument or stfu." You want to dictate to me how I should make my arguments? Good luck with that. The bottom line is that you a lying fucking. From the very start. The very first things you said were lies and you continue to demonstrate that you are everything wrong with the "democratic" party in general.
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@imnotmike regarding, "My next statement is a restating of your position." Yes. Incorrectly.
Regarding, "it's a clarification." No it's not. If you wanted a clarification there is a way to do it. You say something akin to, "ARE you saying Elizabeth Warren didn't personally show up to help the water protectors?" That is how you ask for clarification. That's not what you did. You restated by position for me incorrectly. That is textbook strawman argument. It is as clear as fucking day. It is literally a perfect example of it.
Regarding, "You're claiming Elizabeth Warren was against the Water Protectors and in support of the Dakota Access Pipeline." No. I'm not claiming anything of the sort. If this what you think it's only because you are stupid as fuck and I'm interested in repeating myself over and over and over to you like you are a fucking child so that maybe, just maybe this one time your brain isn't going to malfunction while I'm doing it.
Regarding, "You failed to provide evidence" Yeah.. I guess you are correct about that but only because I don't feel the need to provide evidence for obvious facts. She didn't support the DAPL supporters. Did she? Are you claiming she did? I can provide evidence that she didn't support them but are you really so intellectually challenged that you want me to provide and do all your thinking for you or do you want to explore the world for yourself so that I also don't have to tell you the sky is blue.
Regarding, "then you moved the goalpost" Nope. You lie as always. Same goalpost. She failed to support the DAPL protestors. That's the goalpost and it always was. You, as always, are either lying or stupid. Not that it matters. Either way you suck.
Regarding, "What is your argument against Elizabeth Warren? So far you haven't made one." How about I just copy and paste it for you seeing as how I have made one?
"Because to me things like turning her back on the DAPL protestors and her voting for the 700 billion dollar per year budget for the department of offense (MORE money for bombs then even Trump wanted) are also litmus tests that she failed miserably on." That is me "not making an argument" to a complete and total dipshit.
Regarding, "You've just slung ad hominem bullshit around the room." Don't get me wrong I've called you plenty of names but I've been clear as day why I've been calling you them as I've been doing it.
Regarding, "You made the conversation stink." Actually that was you when you entered by lying through your teeth.
Regarding, "What specifically did she do that you don't like?" Are you embarrassed that you can ask this after I've said, "Because to me things like turning her back on the DAPL protestors and her voting for the 700 billion dollar per year budget for the department of offense (MORE money for bombs then even Trump wanted) are also litmus tests that she failed miserably on." Were those not specific examples?
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@cotacachi12 Regarding, "as long as its genuine" Yang is running for POTUS and has no record. Sure, give him the benefit of the doubt. Seems wise to me. And by wise I mean utterly devoid of logic and reason.
Regarding, "We all change over time." You can't possibly be comparing this concept to a politician running to be president and a major policy change being made in the midst of running can you?
Let's say I agreed with all this crap. At best, at the very best, it means that not long ago his judgment on a very important topic was idiotic. That's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that they are just trying to tell you what you want to hear before doing what they actually think, or thought, not long ago on twitter.
Regarding, "He has probably the least reason to lie" Or he has the most because he, unlike everyone else, knows he doesn't have a record to account for. When Biden says he's the "most progressive" he knows his record is going to be a problem WHILE he says it. Imagine all the shit he would say if he, like yang, didn't have it. He could say literally anything and people don't have a good way to figure out if it's legit or bullshit. It must be nice for yang. He has ZERO reason not to lie about anything as long as he thinks that lie can help him win because he can get away with it like no one else.
Regarding, "Bernie is consistent however I'd conversly argue being consistent holding the same stance with old ideas is not typically ideal." Yeah, a politician who has principles and convictions demonstrated over time so that you know what they stand for and that they aren't going to sway, pander and bullshit is the devil. Can't believe I'd support someone like that. Especially when they have been consistently correct about pretty much everything over decades and those "old ideas" are just as valid today as they were before. /s
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@carjaune6793 Regarding, "Warren ran for her own reasons" To split the progressive vote and cock block "sexist" Bernie Sanders.
Regarding, "she thought she could win the primary" She took third in home state.
Regarding, "Remember she was the frontrunner at one point?" I don't remember this. But only because she never was.
Regarding, "she wasn't just sent there by the establishment to take votes away from Bernie." Of course she was. Long after Pete dropped out to help his team (and he "won" the Iowa Caucus according to the corrupt DNC) Warren was staying in to help her team as well. And by her team I'm referring to team establishment which she is clearly part of.
Regarding, "To believe some kind of conspiracy like that is to dissociate yourself from reality." Wait? The DNC establishment wasn't conspiring to stop sanders at all cost? I'm the one dissociating myself from reality? LOL Projection much?
Pete had good reason to stay in... but he dropped out... for a reason.
Warren had every reason to drop out... she stayed in... for a reason.
It really shouldn't be so hard to connect the dots.
Regarding, "But that came late in the day" LOL. So what that it happened "late in the day." It shows what she was all about all along. She was in it to help team establishment, split the progressive vote, and stop sanders from getting the nomination. I'm sure you have rationalizations and excuses for her calling sanders a sexist as well, not that I really care to hear them.
Regarding, "Yang ran because no one else was running on UBI" Did yang think this was the only way to talk about UBI? Did he think a guy with zero experience in politics was a good messenger? Did he just not care how his entering the race would affect everyone else?
Regarding, "Why the hate?" He is an establishment tool that was one part of many that help orchestrate biden and stop sanders. I've made my feelings perfectly clear. I can only think you are not engaging me in good faith to so willfully ignore the things I'm saying in a way such as this.
Regarding, "If that was really his machiavellic scheme, he would have kept on running past New Hampshire." It doesn't work this way according to you otherwise you wouldn't try to make excuses and rationalizations for warren saying BS like, "that came late in the day." You just move the goalposts whereever you want to fit the point you are trying to make no matter how silly what you are saying is.
Regarding, "Bernie only ran into trouble 3 weeks later" Bernie lost the Iowa caucus by a razor thin margin according to the corrupt media and corrupt DNC.
Regarding, "Bernie only ran into trouble 3 weeks later, in South Carolina? Your theory makes no sense." Bernie should have entered SC having won all the previous contests by clear margins making him the clear frontrunner. Because of the actions of people like warren and yang who were actively working to split the progressive hope while having zero legitimate path to the nomination the media was effectively able to portray the contest as open going into SC. They also didn't hammer biden for his lies about working in civil rights, about being arrested with mandela, about lies about his record, and more. You make no sense. Your excuses and rationalizations are sad.
Regarding, "Let that sink in." Just putting UBI on top of a system like ours that doesn't change any else just creates wealth that will all flow to the top of the pyramid just like it does now. Let that sink in. And your conman doesn't really want to change much of anything. He is just getting you to trade in any hope of real hope and change you have for the system for UBI pandering. And even if Yang were president UBI wouldn't have a chance in hell of happening.
Regarding, "(Are we good?)" I'm good. You are a sheep.
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strong regarding, "Why take the hard road? Because the two party system..." You don't need to argue that the 2 party system is joke. It is. But the system is rigged to prevent 3rd parties from succeeding the same way the "democratic" party is rigged against progressives. I would be all for building a new party or, because I think the Green party is what the "democratic" party should be, supporting them. BUT WINNING IS IMPORTANT. Taking over the "democratic" party is twofer if we succeed. It would kill the destructive influence of the corporate dems and give us a major party. It is clearly the logical way to proceed to me. That said please continue to build good 3rd party options. I will be voting for them when the major parties produce shit candidates. I happily voted for Jill Stein in 2016. BUT THAT IS PLAN B! Plan A is getting a progressive at the head of the "democratic" party because that is the most logical plan to get what I think we both want.
Regarding, "You say Bernie is the most popular pol." Yes. He is. But it didn't happen overnight. He is currently as popular as he is because campaigned with class during the 2016 election. He is currently as popular as he is because he can't rightfully be blamed for Trump winning.
Regarding, "we lost four years by him not separating from the Dems" Nothing would have hurt his (and ours, I think) cause by him being blamed for Trump winning. That is, in part, why Hillary wants to blame him. Because she knows it would be devastating for progressives. But it doesn't work because everyone knows it WASN'T Bernie's fault.
Regarding, "Now or never for Independent party." You go ahead and try to build another party. I'll try to takeover the "democratic" party. And we can meet in the middle. We don't have to commit to one or the other. If the dem nominee is a corporate shill like Harris or Booker I will be voting for someone else. But like I said I think that is rightfully plan B.
Regarding, "It's about more than one election" I don't disagree with this. But realize that your path is just as rigged as mine is. There is not going to be an easy solution for either of us. I just think mine is easier and therefor much more logical.
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@sandiroberts6296 Regarding, "you totally misread what I said" No I didn't. You started your op with a completely idiotic statement. You then presented evidence that showed it was an idiotic statement assuming you actually believe the things you are trying to say.
Regarding, "I said if Bernie wins the primary then Biden supporters will rally." Meanwhile, in reality, we live in a world where more hillary supporters defected and didn't support obama then sanders supports defected from hillary.
Regarding, "Bernie folks were sore losers and either stayed home or voted third party." Yeah. Weird that people were pissed about all the shenanigans being done to fuck them over. It isn't that people had legit grievances, its that they were just being sore. And this is still the message the party is giving and you suck it up because you are an idiot baffled why people don't find you and your bullshit compelling.
Regarding, "Jill Stein? Really?" Really. As a person who cares about war, money in politics, the environment and other really important issues such as these she was the only candidate who actually represented me on those issues. Hillary Clinton? Really? Who never found a war she didn't like, loves fracking, loves dirty money and legalized bribes she can pretty much go fuck herself. The only thing she had going for her is that she wasn't trump. Which is why she and her campaign intentionally propped up the clown using their piped piper strategy. Because they thought having trump would scare enough people to vote for her instead of just winning them over being by being a decent human being.
Regarding, "She’s and Bernie supporters are a big reason we have that baboon in the whitehouse now." Yeah. It's their fault. Not trump supporters, or the dnc for rigging the primary, or the corporate media for giving trump billions in free media, or hillary for sucking. It's Jill Stein and Bernie supporters fault think total fucking dipshits. That's where they hold the blame.
Regarding, "the funny thing is, we are on the same side." The funny thing is... we aren't. Lucky for me I get to decide who is on my side and who isn't... not you.
Regarding, "I’m not going to fight with you." Nah. You are just going to continue to say completely idiotic shit and blame voters for not buy your particular brand of shit.
Regarding, "That’s what’s wrong with this party now." There is a reason I and many have left the party... it's a piece of shit and I happily don't identify as a democrat anymore. Lucky for me I don't live in a closed primary state so that the party would be able to blackmail into joining it so that I can vote in the "democratic" primary. There is so much wrong with the party it is truly remarkable. But me getting to decide who is on my side and telling the people who aren't my side to fuck off isn't the problem. It's people selling their souls to corporations and you telling me I should support them because of some party label. Seriously everything you say is dumb as fuck. Stop watching so much corporate media, pull your head out of your ass and stop buying their bullshit. Thanks for that in advance.
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@sandiroberts6296 Regarding, "you’re an unhappy guy aren’t you?" We are talking about politics... which means we are talking about war, climate change, the uninsured... if you talk about those things and you don't get a bit angry then you are either an idiot or not human.
Regarding, "You are JUST like Trump supporters!" One of the only things I appreciate about trump supporters is their rage. They are right to be pissed. They know they are getting fucked over. They are just too fucking stupid to realize who has it in their ass.
But yeah... I'm not like them in pretty much every other way imaginable. It kinda makes me feel like I'm not just like them. Or if I were just like them I'd probably be supporting trump wouldn't I.
Regarding, " If you don’t like my opinion, then ignore it!" You mean like you aren't doing? Do you not realize how hypocritical you are being or do you think what you are doing here is different somehow?
It's a public forum. If you don't want to be criticized don't say stupid shit.
Regarding, "Just like Trumps base, you will attack anyone that doesn’t fit with your agenda." What a nonsensical thing to say. This is what you say when you have nothing of real substance to offer.
Regarding, "YOU are the problem, not me!" Does this mean we aren't on the same side anymore according to you?
Regarding, "I didn’t attack you!" Yeah... you only tried to blame me for trump being in office. But I'm sure you meant it kindly. Again... you are a hypocrite. And stupid.
Regarding, "I will do what’s best for my country." ISIS thinks the same shit while they do what they do.
Regarding, "blame everyone else for it!" Again... two seconds you were blaming me. So much hypocrisy it practically oozes from you.
Regarding, "Consider our conversation over!" Now it's done? Too bad you don't live by your own words or you might have avoided making an ass of yourself further.
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@injunsun Regarding, " Obviously you haven't read her positions lately." Please dig deeper than her "positions lately." Politicians are rightfully known for being great liars. Don't just take their word and do some digging.
Let's take her position lately of not taking pac money. I won't even point out that she has rolled pac money left over from her senate run into her campaign president, which she has, let's talk about the fact that that "position lately" only goes as far as the primary. She isn't going to take that money in the primary because she knows it's wrong and immoral. According to Warren, "corruption, the influence of money, touches every decision that gets made in Washington... Whatever issue brought you here today, I guarantee if there’s a decision to be made in Washington, it’s been touched, pushed, massaged, tilted over, just a little, so the folks with money do better than everyone else." That same warren will happily and hypocritically take pac money if she makes the general which means that her positions on anything can't be trusted because she openly admits she will take legalized bribes.
Warren reeks of controlled opposition to real change. Her campaign is an effort to kneecap Sanders. She is terrible.
https://publicintegrity.org/federal-politics/elizabeth-warren-president-pac-money-treasurer/
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@TheJumpsuitJack "AOC's one vote" That's not her only inexcusible vote but it perfectly shows how she squanders the power she does have and acts in complete opposite to the values she claims to hold. These are AOCs own words that she has on twitter this very moment...
" Sometimes it’s to get members on the record, so ppl can’t make excuses later.
Sometimes these votes create real political pressure that forces developments.
Sometimes we vote for the historical record - to let future generations know we did everything we could."
She's also the same person who said that she wouldn't vote for nancy for speaker before she got in office.
If you want to defend her how about you at least start with this one vote and then we can move on to her other inexcusable votes.
"Sam is personal" LMFAO No. It's not. It's again another example of someone whose actions betray the values they claim to hold. It's evidence that he's a fraud in the same way aocs actions betray her.
"It's opinion" Yes. It is. It's the opinion you come to when the values you actually hold and care about are protecting your cult. At best it's a biased opinion to try and maintain his access to AOC. At worst he is straight up controlled opposition whose job it is to sheepherd people into a corrupt party. He might pretend to care about their wrongdoing from time to time but that's only to get the sheep to trust him when he tells them all to vote for them when it matters most.
"He's a commentator, not someone with similar power to goverent officials." Thanks captain obvious. Those are words even if they offer nothing of value to the conversation at hand.
"knows exactly who Sam is" He's a sheepherder who will tell you to vote blue no matter who. He doesn't care about these people at all. At the end of the day he only cares what color jersey they are wearing. He's a hack.
"Your personal beef is irrelevant." So according your "logic" that would mean you have "beef" with me? Then it too is irrelevant.
"You probably aren't a "real progressive" in my eyes." I want universal health care, money out of politics, to give peace a chance, to break up the banks, reparations, free college, freedom of speech, freedom to decide what goes into my body and more. I also don't really care if you think I'm not a progressive or not. It's more important to me that you realize that people like sam and AOC are frauds, because they are.
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@kyleg8839 Regarding, "but at the end of the day I’m a realist." I imagine that almost every terrible thing in the history of man has been attempted to be rationalized this way. The world changes. But not with an attitude like this.
Regarding, "if you want to make the big bucks" Dude... again... it's not just about him and the money. I mean, it's kindof about the money. But only in that that money is needed to produce the content. Without it only the CNNs of the world get to give their biased corporate view of the world. It's about controlling the narrative. People are leaving corporate news. They are looking to independent media. So corporations are looking for ways, like this to control that too.
Regarding, "if you wanna fight the moral fight, then be independent" How do you do that when you can't pay the bills and keep the lights on? If you want there to be an independents you need to be willing to fight for them the way they are fighting for you. Or you can complain that they are shining a light on a problem like you are doing. I'd prefer you wouldn't.
Regarding, "this isn’t gonna change" Certainly not with your attitude. And even if the system doesn't change that doesn't make it any less important that people be informed as to why things are the way they are. People need to know how corporations are controlling the flow of information.
Regarding, "by making every video comp;aiming about not getting ad money" I can only imagine how frustrating it is to spend the time and effort he does to make the great quality videos he does only to have them be immediately demonetized with no explanations given. And it's not every video although he has talked about it far more as of late, but again, it's in the news and a hot topic.
Regarding, "it gets lame" Are you going to be ok? Maybe we can start a support group for people like you? Seriously thou... you don't have to watch. I certainly don't watch all the videos in my subscriptions. And if I start watching something and it loses my interest I go to something else. I don't bitch about how everything isn't perfectly catered to me. You are not the center of the universe.
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Regarding, "Does it sound like a joke genius?" I didn't think so. I thought you were just stupid but I was hoping, for your sake, that it was just a joke. As it turns out the only joke is you huh? That is too bad for you.
Regarding, "Simple, they aren't facts. 75% of what Jimmy says about Obama are lies, smear, or half truths." First, you are wrong. I suspect you realize this otherwise you correct him instead of just stomping your feet. Second, even if what you say is true (which again it isn't), maybe Jimmy is just stupid... and that wouldn't make him racist. And for you to say he is racist shows that you are really, really stupid.
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Regarding, "the foreplay" is that what you are calling completely misinterpreting the things I said?
Regarding, "You deny or downplay Russia's involvement yea?" If you wonder why I might quickly lose interest in the things you say it is, in part, because you demonstrate a complete inability to understand what I'm saying without me having to repeat myself several times and clarify myself. The answer to this question should already be perfectly clear to you yet you still ask it. I do not deny russia fucked with us but I do not think it is the big deal you want to make it out to be. Especially when compared to all the other things going on the world and when put in context with all the things going on the world.
Regarding, "u don't have to reply to every point" Thanks. You don't have to tell me how to reply. I reply to every point I think is worth replying to when I reply. I do everything in my power to not ignore the points people are making or I don't reply at all.
Regarding, "Postulate your case." I feel like I've already been really clear about what I'm trying to say but I guess I'll repeat it, condense it, and use as small and few words as possible (although, as I type this I have to wonder why I am doing this). This is my point... You need to be focusing your attention on what YOUR country is doing instead of what Russia is doing.
Regarding, "I already know what your going to say" Is that so? I guess maybe you could have the conversation for both of us. Is this the type of thinking that has you responding to things I absolutely don't say instead of the things I do say?
Regarding, "I know who you are getting ur misinformation from" Who is that exactly? Dave and who? What specific misinformation? Since you are psychic you don't per chance have more useful information like lottery numbers do you?
Regarding, "be an asshole" I don't care if you want to be an asshole. I'm an asshole. I care far more about you taking my words out of context, ignoring the points I actually make, talking about things I don't say, making assumptions about me, and thinking you know what I'm going to say before I actually say it. How about you be an asshole but while you do it you have zero preconceived notions about me and my positions, and address what I actually say?
Now if you want to make the case that Russia is super fucking important (and it seems pretty clear to me you do) then how about you just fucking do it. But while you do it I would encourage you to consider the fact that, like I've said, we do the exact same shit everywhere and the fact that the "democratic" party and corporate media did far, far more to wrongfully fuck with the election than Russia. Oh... and one more thing while I'm at it. Consider the fact that had Hillary won the election the russia coverage would be DRASTICALLY different because it is all a smoke screen to make excuses for the fallen queen and return to the status quo without changing anything.
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It is difficult to know where to begin to explain why literally everything you said was silly. I guess I'll just try to start at the start.
Regarding, "Kyle, you're just like all the trumptards that can't manage to forget about Hilary." Um... no. Absolutely not. You are comparing people who "can't forget about Hillary" only to try and justify Trumps suck to someone who "can't forget about Hillary" because Hillary is actually still relevant to this world in many different ways and acting as if their motives and rational are, in any way shape or form the same when it is obvious they are totally fucking different.
Regarding, "It's been over a year" How exactly do you think this is relevant to the conversation? When exactly did this conversation expire? Was it the day after the election to you? A month after? 6 months? What point are you really trying to make with this?
Regarding, "she lost" The phrase that goes something like, "those that don't examine the past are destined to repeat" is a thing because it is really fucking accurate and important. We, as in society, need to know why she lost accurately so that we are able to avoid it in the future. And that is does not mean that we need to make sure the Hillary Clinton's of world need to win going forward but we need to examine the past to make sure that the Donald Trumps of the world don't win in the future.
Hillary Clinton needs to be made by the public to take responsibility for her loss. The bullshit narrative that she lost because of russia or bernie or comey or sexism or all the other bullshit excuses of her loss and that bullshit needs to be squashed because in general bullshit needs to be called out and specifically because this particular bullshit would serve to excuse her failure.
Regarding, "she's irrelevant now" No. She absolutely is not. She is why Tom Perez is the chair of the party and why they continue to suck balls. She has the ear of many of the country. Kyle could never mention her name ever again but she is still going to be talked about by the corporate media. She is being asked these questions still because she isn't in fact irrelevant. There is a big difference between what you want to hear talked about and what is actually relevant. If she were really so irrelevant like you claim then why the fuck are you even commenting?
Regarding, "stop dedicating stories to revive her from the dead!" It is difficult to express how hard it is to take your comment seriously. I'm actually surprised I've written so much about it as I have. I'm not going to claim I've done an excellent job addressing it. I haven't, in part because it is so fucking absurd I can't really even take it seriously. But if you want to think imply that if only Kyle were to stop talking about Hillary then no one else would the you go right ahead. Sane people realize that such a notion is fucking absurd thou. It is that that I have take the most exception with. Well that and the fact that you think Kyle talking about her is done so in the same way Trump supporters do it. Both those notions are seriously beyond stupid.
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Regarding, "All that writing and all you managed to do is look backwards in history." Yeah because studying history is totally unimportant am I right?
Regarding, "I get the point you're trying to make." Do you? Because literally everything else you say suggest otherwise.
Regarding, "all those points can be made without talking about Hillary's opinion on why she lost" Context is pretty fucking important. When debunking flat earthers or others spouting bullshit do you think it is logical to do so without talking about why they think what they do? Because that makes no fucking sense.
Regarding, "do you really care about her opinion?" Not in the context that I think it valid or reasonable but I do care about her opinion in the context that her bullshit needs to be corrected. If I used this type of stupid logic I for example, wouldn't think that fox news bullshit needs to be corrected. But because bullshit needs to be called out and corrected I do care. I'm not going to leave it around to let it stink up the joint.
Regarding, "I sure don't!" Yeah. I can totally tell by you feeling the need to engage in this conversation. How about, if you actually believe the bullshit you are saying, then you do anything else with your time? Kyle and myself think it is important to call her out and we are going to continue to do so despite your whining.
Regarding, "Yes I know Kyle isn't like the trumptards" Thanks for stating the obvious. I guess I was confused when you started your original post with, "you're just like all the trumptards."
Regarding, "but they still talk about her at the end of the day." What a simplistic view you have. I guess I think context is important unlike some.
Regarding, "You can't tell a trumptard to..." In all honesty I don't spend a lot of time worrying about Trump supporters. I am more concerned about people who are capable of using logic and reason.
Regarding, "telling the people on your side to move on as well" I'm not sure who the people you think are "on my side" or "not on my side" are regardless that type of team mentality shit isn't for me. I also don't give a fuck about "moving on." That isn't a priority for me the way it seems to be for you. I care about truth. I have no tolerance for stupid and bullshit and will call it out regardless of who is doing it and how long ago it happened.
Regarding, "How long after the election do you want to continue talking about her?" At least until I think the narrative is correct. At least until the corrupt forces that allowed her to rig the primary have been more adequately dealt with. I have no expiration on this especially when she still has a platform to be making excuses for her loss which she obviously does.
Regarding, "Eventually you're gonna have to move on bro! Why not fight the problems of today today?" 2 points. First I can walk and chew gum at the same time. Second if you think corruption in the party isn't a "problem of today" then you are fucking insane. Just recently there was audio of Hoyer talking about how the party insiders are happy to put their finger on scale. You act like this shit is ancient history and totally solved. It isn't. Stop being ridiculous.
Regarding, "Yes, Clinton was a neo liberal... but she's not the only one." It's like you are trying to make my argument for me with this statement.
Regarding, "The difference is she has no power" I wish you realized how naive this statement is. And isn't just about "her." It is about all the people around her and the people that continue to try and excuse her loss on anything other than her. If they are able to blame russia or any of their other excuses then there is no need to change.... it wasn't really their fault afterall according to their bullshit.
Regarding, "I'd rather focus on the ones with real official power.... like Tom Perez." The only reason Tom Perez is the chair is because Hillary Clinton "won" the nomination. You are acting as if this shit takes place in a vacuum and they are independent of one another when they are clearly joined at the hip.
Regarding, "You could attack him without having to talk about Hillary. Do you see my point!" So you want me to gloss over the part about why he has the power he does because you can't stand to hear Hillary's name or something? Do you see my point? Because your point is garbage.
Regarding, "If you ignore her, she will go away." You could say the same thing about herpes but that wouldn't make that true either.
Regarding, "If you give her the platform, whether they are bashing her or praising her, at the end of the day, you are still giving her a platform." She already has the fucking platform for fucks sake. This shit happened regardless of Kyle and myself. Seeing as how that is the reality I'm going to use my platform to bash her because she needs bashing.
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Regarding, "it's clear to me the one who isn't willing to have a discussion is you." Um, no shit sherlock. My original comment demonstrated that I wasn't looking to have a discussion. I said I wasn't looking to have a discussion. You didn't ask for a discussion. You asked for an explanation and I offered it even thou, as I suspected by your original comment, you would have difficulty understanding it.
Regarding, "You literally replied to every word I said...literally!" Yup. I go out of my way to not gloss over and ignore things people say like so many. You say this like it is a bad thing. To me it is a good thing.
Regarding, "I'm definitely not asking for a bumper sticker argument, so don't start with the strawmen argument." It was not a strawman argument. It was hyperbole. You don't like how I do things, fine. Ignore me. I am far less relevant than Hillary Clinton and you think she shouldn't be talked to or acknowledged so that shouldn't be hard or unreasonable. But instead you think that I need to respond to you how you want me to. Not only in how much I say but in how I say it. You want me to be nice to you. Sorry but that isn't happening either. I'm long winded and I'm a dick but I'm honest. Take it or leave it. Do us both a favor and leave it.
Regarding, "my opinion=we don't need to talk about Hillary to accomplish the mission." I don't even know what your "mission" is much less have an accurate idea if I agree with it. Like I've said the closest thing I have to a "mission" is correcting bullshit so that it doesn't continue to stink the place up.
Regarding, "Your opinion=we need to talk about her so we don't repeat the same mistakes." Very simplistic and hardly representative of my beliefs. You leave out important aspects such as the need to make sure that Hillary is blamed for her loss so that the powers that be are forced to make appropriate changes and not act as if it wasn't really her fault.
Regarding, "I believe you're too focused on an individual (Hillary), rather than the ideology she represents." And you have come to this conclusion because I accurately say that she isn't irrelevent despite your silly claim. And you come to this conclusion without knowing anything about me other than the that fact and the fact that I think your comments are absurd. I spend lots of time fighting her ideology and people like her but don't let that get in the way of your assumption.
Regarding, "I'm more worried about the ideology because that's where the real source of the problem is." You know what one of the best ways to fight that ideology is? It is by pointing out how it has failed in the past... you know... like Hillary Clinton.
Regarding, "Those of us in progressive circles know her downfall" So you think that Kyle and myself should only be talking to and addressing "those in progressive circles." We should be ignoring people like the person asking his insane question and pretend that they don't exist or matter. Sheesh.
Regarding, "Kyle is preaching to the choir here. Everyone in his audience knows she's crap" Some things are worth repeating. Some things are worth emphasizing. Especially when the person in question, despite your claims, already has a platform to shout their bullshit. Based on your "logic" there would be no need to give logical reasons why Alex Jones, Hannity, Joy Reid and many others bullshit needs to be corrected either. We all already know that right? Well I for one am glad that Kyle does what he does. If you don't like it then you should start your own channel and you can dedicate as much of it as you like to pretending Hillary Clinton doesn't exist.
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Regarding, "your argument is all over the place. And it's super annoying." If I thought more of your arguments and opinion this would be far more meaningful. Seeing as how I don't... ok... whatever.
Regarding, "What gets me is that it's you that was triggered by my comment, then you come after me but you leave no room for any sort of discussion" Your original comment is akin to saying the earth is flat in that it is stupid as fuck and makes everyone who reads it dumber. I know you, just like flat earthers, think their opinion and comments should be taken seriously by me and given respect but it doesn't. I just wanted to give you my two cents that said that I think what you said was dumb as fuck without really bothering to elaborate as to why. You, like the flat earther, have already given what you are talking about "thought" and still have come to utterly insane conclusions. There is no reason or logical argument that is going to make a difference to either of you on the topic. But you were nice and asked for an explanation so I thought I'd give it. Man do I regret that now.
Regarding, "cuz you didn't want a discussion" Yeah. I don't have unlimited time and energy or I would happily try to walk through why literally everything you say is wrong.
Regarding, "Then you attack my freedom of expression by telling not to comment if I disagree with Kyle's point." No. I tell you that what you are saying is stupid. You don't get this because you clearly do not do nuance very well. If what you said is true then it would be equally true to say that you were "attacking kyle's freedom of expression by telling him not to comment about Hillary Clinton." I don't say that because saying that would be stupid.
Regarding, "Then I reply to your points, then you continue to tell me not to express my opinions." No. I tell you that what you say is stupid and I ask you to stop because I have a weakness in that I have a hard time letting stupid shit go unanswered. Seeing as how you only say stupid shit I concede I'm going to have a hard time not responding to you.
Regarding, "you haven't presented anything empirical or objective to back up your argument" I guess, for example, pointing out that Hillary has a platform of her ideas when that is obviously true despite the stupid shit you say isn't "empirical or objective."
Regarding, "you are complaining about my opinion by claiming I'm wrong right off the bat, and no room for discussion" Same stupid shit flat earthers say. Your opinion is wrong because it is wrong. Sorry for not being anxious to have a discussion with you or them.
Regarding, "I can care less about what you have to say" The fact that you are responding demonstrates that what you are saying is bullshit.
Regarding, "it seem you cared a whole lot more" Like I've said I care about the truth and I have a problem with people like you taking a shit all over it.
Regarding, "Chill out, stop being so triggered, and actually open your mind to other opinions" Should I be open to the opinion the earth is flat? Of course not. I'm not about to be open to your stupid as fuck opinions either for the same reasons. I'm betting you understand that. But because it is your stupid as fuck opinions you can't understand why I am not open to your dumb ideas because they are yours.
Regarding, "especially when discussing subjective matters" Saying, "you're just like all the trumptards that can't manage to forget about Hilary" and "she's irrelevant now" are not subjectively wrong. They are objectively wrong.
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@camelopardalis84 Regarding, "I will look into Warren's record on - for lack of a better term - MIC issues." Her record isn't very long. It doesn't include things like a vote for or against war with Iraq. It has more to do with her rhetoric on the topic. And it's never been that of actual progressives like Sanders or Tulsi, it's been that of a typical neoliberal warmonger.
Regarding, "MIC issues. And did I get that right?" Military industrial complex which is own personal description of foreign policy.
Regarding, "People called her a progressive because weapons were being built in her home state?" I'm saying that people, who were trying to explain her hawkish when it comes to war and foreign policy, were rationalizing and excusing her positions on the topic because so many jobs in her state are tied to weapons development. That that is why she said what she did on foreign policy, not because she is just the type of terrible person who would eventually vote to give billions more in bombs to a commander in chief she calls unhinged, even more money for bombs than the unhinged guy wanted.
Regarding, "Or were there just people who felt the need to defend her becauses they liked her for that weapon manufaturing?" I don't really read comments all the way through. I read them as I try to address points as they are being made. Hopefully I've already answered this. I was talking about warren apologists. Who knew that what she was doing wasn't very progressive but wanted to continue to claim that she was a progressive.
Regarding, "I fell for Obama in 2008" As did I. What a great conman. The biggest lesson I learned was to follow the money more. Obama was selling his soul. Sanders on the other hand has a campaign that's being paid for by US. And politicians represent who pays for their campaigns.
Regarding, "There must be such a huge portion of people in the US who never gets the chance to vote for someone who's in line with or even to the left of them " This country is pretty messed up. I'm old as dirt and I've voted in all presidential elections available to me. 2016 was literally the first time in my entire life that my vote was important. In every other election ever I could have just stayed home confidently knowing that my vote was meaningless because I was living in a deep red or deep blue state and my vote wasn't going to matter.
2016 was the first time ever that I was in a swing state at the time of the election. My very first "meaningful" presidential vote in my entire old as dirt life. I "wasted" it on Jill Stein. I say wasted with quotes because I again knew it wasn't going to matter. It wasn't a waste though. And I've never regretted it. She was the only candidate running that I actually wanted to win.
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Koss regarding, "I agreed with you and you still want to argue" I can be a real dick and I have a problem with all the BS arguments against. To me this is such a no brainer that I have little to no tolerance for the bullshit against it.
Regarding, "Maybes single payer will work and maybe it won't" Canada and other countries prove it can work even if not perfectly. We just need people and politicians with the will to make it work.
Regarding, "government doesn't have a great track record of taking something and making it better." I can understand this point because our government is filled with people who have a vested interest in making government bad. Still I am going to fight for good government. It isn't going away anytime soon so it may as well be the best government possible.
Regarding, "If the post office was so awesome then why did fed ex and ups have to come in and do what they did better, faster, and cheaper?" I can't speak intelligently about this. I mail something about once a year but I guess I've never had a problem with the post office. I guess maybe (and I'm absolutely just speaking off the cuff) Fedex and UPS are able to pay their employees less but I have no idea honestly.
Regarding, "They VA is popular to people who don't have to deal with it." No. These are opinion polls based on the people they serve. People who use the VA are happier with it (not the be mistaken with perfect) than people who use the private health insurance industry.
Regarding, "He literally had to wait a month for them to tell him he had mouth cancer." I'm not sure what to say about this. Again nothing is going to be perfect. Wait times are going to happen everywhere. I assure you they happen in the private for profit health insurance industry as well. They are ultimately the biggest problem with the VA... wait times. The service they provide after you see somebody is considered to be superior than what the private industry provides because the private for profit industry is more concerned with making money than actually providing care.
Regarding, "All I want people to do is weigh the pros and cons before they go into this head first." There are 3 major things I consider be important when it comes to pros and cons.
1. The number of people the system covers. Currently millions do not have insurance.
2. The cost person for health care. Currently Americans pay far, far, far more per person for health insurance compared to other countries.
3. Results. Americans actually receive worse care than other countries. For example compare infant mortality rates in the US to other countries.
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danny regarding, "it'll take you less than the 33 years" I am not young and think we are probably about the same age not that it really matters.
Regarding, "you will have had your energy" I'm just happy to still have some energy and am happy to get energized by anything these days. The idea of taking over the party gets me fired up.
Regarding, "time" Since you think time is important, how long until you think a 3rd party is going to have a legit chance in the presidential election?
Regarding, "money." I can't imagine anyone that donates money to a party. When I donate money I give it directly to the people I want to see elected.
Regarding, "The DNC's..." The party leadership is a dumpster fire. We don't disagree on this and you don't need to tell me the ways they suck. I am well aware. That is why we need to kick their asses to the curb and in all honesty I think there is a pretty good plan and chance of it happening in 2020 assuming progressives can coalesce around a candidate.
Regarding, "State DNC" What happened in Cali was outrageous. But in the long run that type of shit is only going to cause the people to realize how they are getting fucked over and get them to do something about it. That is but one battle in a great war.
And if you want to grip about how your state was specifically fucked over I would be willing to add that having superdelegates "call" the election for Hillary a couple days before the peasants in the state were allowed to vote was also fucking outrageous and clearly designed to try and suppress votes. But ultimately I'm not here to bitch about all the ways they have fucked over the people but rather trying to formulate a plan to go forward. Holy shit I just sounded like Tom Perez. Not good. Make me think I should rethink some things. I don't want to agree with him on anything. That said looking forward is important because we do agree on how fucked up the past was. I'm not pretending the primary was rigged for example.
Regarding, "I have NO DOUBT that Bernie won the nomination." I actually tend to agree with you. I question the primary election results. Exit polls indicate election fraud. But one of the reasons why they were able to get away with it, assuming they did flip votes, was because the corporate media was able to portray Hillary as inevitable from the onset. They can't do that in 2020. In 2020 Sanders is clearly the favorite. And if he starts losing states that he should be winning people will be forced to take notice and there is no plausible deniability.
Regarding, "The fact that he refused to acknowledge what was happening" That isn't his role. That is ours. America fucking hates whiners and anyone perceived to be whining even if their whining is justified. Nobody is in a more biased place to call out rigging than the candidate who is getting fucked over. That is why it was nice when Brazile came out with the information she did. (She still fucking sucks but i was nice.) And look at how she was attached and how the corporate media worked to dismiss what she revealed. And she wasn't nearly in a biased position like Sanders would be to talk about rigging (slightly biased though, she did want to sell some books).
I don't need Sanders to tell me he got fucked over. And the people that still think the primary was fair aren't all of a sudden going to see the light if Sanders bitched about how he was fucked over.
Even Hillary supporters had an impossible time defending their fallen queen on her blame everyone book tour because Americans are sheep who are conditioned to think this is just excuse making. And the American public certainly wasn't ready to think that maybe votes were actually getting flipped. At least not without rock solid smoking gun evidence of which there was none. Sadly there was only circumstantial evidence.
I very well might be voting for the Green party candidate in 2020 the same way I voted for Jill Stein in 2016 but that is plan B and I absolutely will be voting in the "democratic" primary and think everyone else should as well.
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@TCt83067695 Regarding, "Tell me you don't see anything wrong with that." I do see something with that. Obviously. I literally address it. I concede this is a far from perfect idea, but we live in a far from perfect world.
We live in a world where not only do you have an inept "democratic" party but we also have a complicit republican party that you have zero reason to believe would vote to impeach and they hold majorities in our government.
Even if democrats did exactly what you think they should you should realize that, because of the state of our government, you have ZERO logical reason to think it would succeed even if the dems made a great case and did all the right things.
Regarding, "we're assuming he'll be defeated in 2020 which I personally doubt" Literally an democrat, even the terrible ones, all can beat Donald trump assuming they are perceived to have won their primary legitimately by the public. That said there is good reason to think they won't but that is ultimately the only thing they need to beat the orange clown who got MILLIONS less votes than a complete piece of shit like Hillary who was rightfully perceived to have cheated to get there. Even she would have won if people thought she didn't cheat and she was fucking terrible.
And if you think dems can't beat the orange clown in elections then why the fuck do you think would be smart enough to impeach him intelligently? Because it should be far easier to win an election which even incompetent dems have done than it is to impeach.
Regarding, "And even if trump loses, the new president will not pursue criminal action because it would look like a banana republic where leaders are going after their political rivals." He's not a rival at that point. At that point he is nothing. This is a far more effective and easy way to try and punish him for his crimes. This is what Obama should have done to GWB and Cheney for war crimes. I suspect he didn't because he was going to do them himself. But this is the far more intelligent way to go about this. Again... he wouldn't be a rival at that point because at that point he lost. But they are rivals NOW.
Regarding, "So the guy would totally walk. How progressive of Kyle." Makes no fucking sense. You argue they should go after their rivals this second but not after they aren't rivals anymore. I don't get it.
Regarding, "Kyle is agreeing with Pelosi on a pivotal issue." It's an issue that has ZERO chance of success. Therefor I don't think calling it "pivotal" makes any sense.
Regarding, "Amash is principled enough" He's so "principled" that he would still happily call himself a republican if pence were president. His principles are really messed up. The biggest difference between trump and your average republican is that he comes with a side of pure offensiveness. It's not like the any of them can be said to not be corrupt and pure evil, they are just better at hiding it than trump is.
Regarding, "Bet your bottom dollar imma give Amash some credit for being ahead of Kyle" We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this then. I suspect that somehow he has calculated for himself that this decision is ultimately in his own best interests even if I can't say exactly what he is thinking. And we are going to have to agree to disagree about whether or not try to impeach is a good idea. That said if dems chose to go that route I wouldn't think it's the worse idea. I just think the potential downside outweighs the potential benefits personally.
And don't get me wrong I do question my own assessment on this. I don't find myself on the other side of AOC, David Doel and others whose opinions I very much respect and on the same side as a piece of shit like Pelosi. Things like that alone are enough to make me question my own judgement on the matter. But ultimately I've come to my own opinions on the subject even if not very fiercely.
I hope that, if nothing else, you can understand that my opinion doesn't come from a place of, "(not) interested in holding a corrupt president accountable" but rather a place a place of political calculation where I see no good options available to me. If I thought there was a feasible path for impeachment I'd certainly be agreeing with you.
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Regarding, "why is everyone, all of sudden, critical of Russia doing this?" I feel that this is the case because of the latest evidence, because of Trump ties to russia, and because of Trump derangement syndrome. And don't get me wrong... I love Trump bashing. Fuck that guy. But it needs to be put into context. We can't forget that the bullshit he does has all been going on for a long time already. He gives an ugly face to our ugly practices. Let's use it.
Regarding, "Other coutriers like Israel and Saudi Arabia effect our elections WAY more." Meh. I'm not quite as sure but do agree that both effect our elections. I also do care for whataboutism arguments. Just because other countries do shit is not a legit reason to ignore things that are "bad." Even if I totally agree with this that wouldn't mean that it is ok for russia to fuck with our elections and for that to be ignored.
Regarding, "but who is doing the over-blowing" Like I said, in my opinion, both.
Regarding, "Russia/Putin and Trump connection has been the majority of their stories." I concede that I don't follow TYT all that much. I think it has more to do with Trump derangement syndrome than it does with russiagate. But I am speculating to a huge degree and concede I'm no expert of their coverage at large.
Regarding, "Establishment needs to people to hate Russia so they can bomb Syria... thats it." The people are fucking sheep. They don't need shit to bomb anyone these days.
Regarding, "John Bolton is currently pushing for Regime change in Syria." Bolton is scary as fuck and a disgrace to humanity. I do feel that that is being talked about to a certain degree.
TBC got stuff to do.
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@samg.5165 Regarding, "It should be" So make it that way. Tell everyone you think the person who said the right things is the winner... not act like it's more important how people say things rather than what they were saying.
Regarding, "political debates are ultimately bloodsports." Jean claude van dam was not on the stage and never will be because it's not actually a "bloodspot." It's not about killing your opponents. It's about convincing people to come support you. Even if warren successfully killed Bloomberg on stage that only means Bloomberg is dead... not that people are supporting warren.
Regarding, "She might have destroyed his chances and pretty much burned half a billion dollars of his fortune in the span of 5 minutes." He never had chances to be destroyed. Even Bloomberg knows he can't win. At least not in any sort of conventional get the most votes kind of way. It's about keeping Sanders from winning on the first ballot. And that threat is just as real today as it was yesterday.
Regarding, "It's not something just anybody could have done" It really is. Bloombergs record is atrocious in multiple ways. You say this like we are talking about Bernie.
Regarding, "She could have revealed herself to be the reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln, and I'm not sure it would have save her campaign." How can anyone who you think the public thinks so little of can even possibly "win" to you? You realize that she is the equivalent of a little league team playing in the majors (they can't possibly win the long game) but they got a hit against the worst pitcher in the bigs (Bloomberg) so they "win." Never mind that later in that game they demonstrated how no good they are. Are you for democracy Warren? Nope. But it's cool cause I made a piece of shit look like a piece of shit for a minute. You should just be impressed by that. Ignore this.
Regarding, "At this point, many candidates have likely given up on the presidency already" The establishment's game is to try and keep sanders from winning on the first ballot. That's why so many people with no prospects are sticking around.
Regarding, "In that respect, Warren has really outdone everyone else." She went from being a person Sanders supporters would have been happy with as a running mate to someone who is given snake emojis constantly. Her campaign has eliminated the possibility she be included in a Sanders campaign. Warren is a failure when it comes to improving her future political aspirations. Not only that but she should be caring about US, not about her future job prospects.
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Regarding, "When Bernie was asked if he would have defeated Trump he simply froze and said nothing" Yeah... Bernie thinking to himself, "Are you fucking kidding me? We live in this world with all it's problems and that is the type of stupid fucking question you want to ask me and not about war, or education, or the justice system, or the environment, or money in politics, or health care, or... You can't be fucking serious can you?" Is way more compelling then literally every piece of empirical evidence, aka polling, that supports what I'm saying and says you haven't got a clue.
Regarding, "No, I am not being paid" You really should be. David Brock pays for people to say the stupid shit you do.
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@scottb5494 Regarding, "Oh c'mon, she is a progressive." Why? Cause you say so? Or cause Warren says so? I don't get to have my own say on the matter? Is Biden a progressive because he says he's the most progressive? Much less an actual progressive?
Regarding, "You don't need a 100% on a political purity test to be a progressive." Thanks. I don't go around saying this so I don't know why you are either. But there are some key issues for progressives IMO and she fails all the major tests. War and the MIC, again, as an example she voted to give Trump extra money for bombs. Health care, she is a waffle. Dirty money in politics, she is for it until she calculates it's not in her best interests. Those are the major litmus tests to me and she fails them all miserably.
Regarding, "Bernie has held his views for longer, which is why I will be voting for him in the primaries" It's not just about holding views... it's about views you are willing to fight for. Warren has forever been a fairweather progressive. And that is me being polite. I consider her more controlled opposition to progressivism actually whose campaign, for example, is meant to try and cockblock the actual progressive, Sanders, for a person who wasn't willing to run against Hillary in 2016.
Regarding, "But seriously, if progressives bash everybody but Bernie, this is a problem." Love for the squad. Solidarity with Tulsi against the Russian smears shit and ultimately I get to decide for myself who I consider to be on my team and not you.
Regarding, "The things they are saying about Warren is ridiculous." I gave you a very specific thing that I consider to be inexcusable about warren's voting record. You just ignore it and claim this shit.
Regarding, "If they keep slandering Warren, and Bernie drops dead tomorrow, who are we going to vote for? Biden?" If the unthinkable happened I'd hope that Nina Turner might try and take up the vacuum he would leave behind. If she wouldn't and had to pick among the candidates running as of now I'd choose Tulsi. She doesn't pass my "100 percent political purity test" but I actually consider her a progressive while I do not for warren whom I have zero interest in supporting.
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@TheAlibabatree Regarding, "Historically speaking, our best presidents and leaders were usually the ones with little or no experience." The number of presidents is not a statistically significant number. Ultimately the fact remains for the sane that experience is a good thing. Let's say you are looking to hire someone for ANYTHING, mechanic, plumber, gardener, ANYTHING where you, as a person looking to do the hiring, would consider a lack of experience a good thing and/or where experience would be a bad thing. You are seriously just trying to reverse engineer things to say to come to the idiotic conclusions you have already drawn.
Regarding, "Politics is not a science," Meanwhile, in reality, there is a reason colleges teach courses in POLITICAL SCIENCE. It's rules are not as rigid as math but there is science EVERYWHERE in it.
Regarding, "its more of an art or a game, whether we like it or not." Um... nope.
Regarding, "Constitutionally speaking, the president doesnt have very much power," I don't know if you've noticed but their power has gone way beyond what the constitution intending. Their is so much power in their signing statements alone it's fucking remarkable. It is rightfully called the most powerful position in the world.
Regarding, "outside of military" You mean the area where Yang just totally shit the bed? Our president is commander in chief.
Regarding, "His/her job is more sociological." This is part of it but hardly the majority of what they do.
Regarding, "To bring the country together" Meh. Not really to me. But let's say I thought this, how is this an argument for yang? He's polling what? Like 1 or 2 percent.
Regarding, "and insure trust and hope for the future." Meanwhile, in reality, the legislate and those things have widespread implications. Just today I watched this video that has nothing to do with the shit you claim and has everything to do with facts on the ground and implications for who we have as president.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPqJIzIIzoE&t=369s
Actions matter far more than you seem to think.
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@TheAlibabatree Regarding, " You say that experience is ALWAYS better, no matter the profession." Yup. Because obviously. Because reality.
Regarding, "Again, i would agree with you on almost any profession and any topic... but like i said, politics is different." We even have a name for the logical fallacy you are using. It's called special pleading.
Regarding, "Think of the biggest, most impactful pop artists of the past 100 years." Do I really have to?
Regarding, "None of them were experienced." Meanwhile, in reality, they do have experience at their craft. They have all practiced signing or playing instruments. They didn't just one day sign in the shower and magically hit it big.
Regarding, "They tend to be a (or THE) driving force of cultural change." I think wildly overestimate the impact of pop music.
Regarding, "i agree that recent presidents have overstepped their bounds" It's not even really about that even if this is true. It's about the reality that the POTUS is rightfully called the most powerful person in the world while you want to act like they are just a talking head like Sean Hannity or Rachel Maddow whose biggest impact is rhetoric. It's not. They power is far and wide and they impact so much it's fucking remarkable. Even when it comes to all the power they hold in putting people in their incredibly important jobs and positions. The power of the president is fucking huge and you are comparing them to fucking pop stars all just to try and reverse engineer terrible, terrible, terrible arguments for your preferred candidate.
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@TheAlibabatree Regarding, "I do like Yang" So do I, as a person. As a presidential candidate? That's asinine.
Regarding, "i just dont think he has factored in automation to his policies the way i would like." Automation is going to change society as it already is doing. Bernie offers education, universal health care, a living wage, an increased social safety net and more. All of these things help offset the negative effects of automation in the future. And if UBI becomes feasible more in the future so be it, it's not like it has to happen this second nor am I convinced it is the great idea yang makes of it... especially in how he offers to implement it.
Regarding, "I also think he's too old." He does so much more than I do in a day I can't even imagine. You have ZERO logical reason to think he can't do the job. And should the unthinkable happen and he died, well there is a reason we have vice presidents. I predict that on the day Trump chokes and dies on a burger Bernie will go out for a run like he still does.
I love that he's old. That way I know EXACTLY what I'm getting. I was duped into voting for Obama in large part because he was young and didn't have much of a record for me to look back at... and he still HAD a record, just a short one. Yang has literally NONE.
These are the things you should care most about: a politicians policy, their record, and how they raise the money for their campaign. Bernie has it all and a legit shot of winning... unlike yang.
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@delboyg01 Regarding, " You don’t seem to understand WHY the DNC has packed the field with so many no-hoper Presidential candidates?" Cool. I look forward to being educated by you then.
Regarding, "That IS to unsure that Bernie can’t get the 50% he needs on the 1st round, then on the 2nd round they can bring in the super delegates and say all was fair!" Which is pretty much exactly what I think. That is why I have a problem with Tulsi running and siphoning votes away from sanders. I want to do anything and everything to get Sanders enough delegates on the first ballot. Tulsi makes this goal harder to achieve.
Regarding, "If you really want Bernie you also have to support Tulsi so she can chip away votes from the no hopers!" Meanwhile, in reality, Tulsi voters, if she were not in the race, are likely to go almost exclusively toward Bernie. She isn't taking votes from Biden and the establishment. Because duh.
Regarding, "Bernie cannot win this alone" That's the only way he can win it.
Regarding, "the only other candidate who you can guarantee to give Bernie their votes IS Tulsi." Candidates can't give their pledged delegates to one another. Even if it goes to a second ballot and a contested convention Tulsi can only advice her delegates to support Bernie and ultimately those delegates can do whatever the fuck they want at that point. If you are planning on the second ballot you are setting yourself up for defeat when we should be focusing on the first ballot. That's the only place we know we can't get fucked over.
Regarding, "I really hope you have a better understanding of what is going on now!" The irony. Two can play your game. I really hope you have a better understanding of what is going on now!
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Regarding, "that's what I'm saying, you fucking moron." It's not my fault your original post is poorly written.
The statement of, "It's not about saving money, it's about control, and power over others," paints a picture of the belief that the people who want to save money (aka supporters of single payer, "It's not about saving money") are the ones who want control and power ("it's about control, and power over others"). This is a common argument for those that oppose single payer. They like to say things like, "they don't care about saving money (or this isn't going to save money), they just want control of health care."
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@SlackerU Regarding, " Taking money out would make changes but it secures nothing." Ask yourself this question, why are the major parties the dumpster fires they are? It seriously is not because they are, "Private Corporation with no legal requirement to count votes," it's because they are corporate tools selling their souls for money. They wouldn't make themselves that way, nor would the courts defend them for it, if it weren't for all the money.
Regarding, "Taking money out would make changes but it secures nothing." You can say this about problems like health care, the MIC, education, criminal justice and literally every problem out there but the fact of the matter is that if you remove the money in politics those problems can effectively be addressed. It's the money fucking EVERYTHING up. That's the underlying cause. All other problems are the symptom of that.
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@MultiRusty9 Because we live in a world where providing education, providing health care, capping interest rates on predatory lenders, ending wars, protecting the environment, reforming the criminal justice system, breaking up the banks, and so much more, stuff the people you are smearing like the mindless fuck you are, would help the little guy and are things the little guy wants. Please enlighten me thou as to what I'm not getting. Why aren't those people, fighting for those things that would help the little guy, not for the little guy? I want to be smart like you. Please feel free to add some insults. I find those fucking hilarious coming from people such as yourself.
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@Tsukasa2727 Regarding, "I didn't realize you were a doctor," I never said I was.
Regarding, "did you examine and diagnose him in person yourself?" Examine, as in watch.... yeah I have. Do I have to be "in person" while doctors don't even do that these days?
Regarding, "I thought not." Keep in mind that you think what you do because you are stupid.
Regarding, "So there isn't any basis to claim he that cannot make fun of himself." LMFAO. Yeah. And there is no room to claim that Joe Biden has cognitive decline... unless of course if you listen to him talk.
Regarding, "Further, there was whole "covfefe" ordeal." LFMAO
Regarding, "He made fun of himself when that happened." How so exactly? By not admitting that he was an idiot? Which is actually what he did.
Regarding, "So is that bullshit as well or are you just really bad at picking up social cues?" You are hopelessly stupid... as is trump.
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@k3v1n47 Regarding, "Is it? How do you measure it?" Polls
Regarding, "How do you prove its existence?" Common sense doesn't hurt
Regarding, "Define it?" The likelyhood of a candidate's ability to win election senarios
Regarding, "What is the logic of it?" If winning is important to you, and it should be even thou, like I said it isn't everything. Then it can and should be used in certain scenarios to best use your vote.
Regarding, "it's inherent logic" Winning is important. It helps you maximize your chances of winning.
Regarding, "What makes either of these candidates, "electable"?" Are seriously new to politics? This list is so long and extensive it's almost infinite. The fact that you can't think of a single thing that might make one person more electable than another is remarkable in a terrible way. Let's say a person is a nazi. That makes them less electable... at least to me... cause I'm not a nazi.
Anyways back to your terrible question. I'm a Bernie Sanders supporter, in tiny part, because I think he is more electable. As evidence of this I cite things like, he has more name recognition than tulsi. Tulsi has problems with name recognition in 2020 like sanders did in 2016. He also does better in polls. There are no polls, none even including bad polls with terrible methodology that make them useless, that have tulsi in front of sanders.
Let's say I'm wrong... and tulsi wins the primary. I'd support her in the general. I won't vote for bernie because... well it should be obvious that he wouldn't be very electable at that point. I could vote for him. I'd still thing he would be a better choice for president. But I won't. And it is because of electability. This is merely an extreme example of it.
Regarding, "What measurement can you use to show that either of them is "electable"?" Polls. Seriously. It's fucking science when done correctly.
Regarding, "Who decides before an election's first vote is cast who will win this election." No one decides. There is a reason we go and vote.
Regarding, "Clinton was considered electable in 2016, 2008." Considered by who? Not me. Oh... you mean by people with financial interests in propping her up said she was the most electable. Yeah... they are full of shit. Don't be afraid to formulate your own opinions about who is more electable than others. Or if you are going to listen to people listen to people like kyle at secular talk and not corporate propogandists for better insight.
Regarding, "And yet Trump is president." If you have a point here it is lost on me. I honestly have no fucking clue what you are alluding to. Is this back to because hillary was more electable? She wasn't. It wasn't even close. I know this because of polls. Polls showed Sanders crushing trump by about ten points. Hillary was within the margin of error of polls. Trump is president because the "democratic" party didn't pick the electable nominee.
Regarding, "Biden was Vice President for 8 years. How did "electability as you said "not capable of doing a good job" work out?" Um what? Again your point is lost on me. I suspect that's the case because it's idiotic. I'll try to address your comment but I might be missing the mark. Biden might be electable. Trump might be electable (note, he obviously was since he was elected). That doesn't mean shit to me. I'm not going to support either of them regardless of how electable or not electable they are. I reserve my support for people who are worthy of it and neither those 2, or hillary, are people that come even close to good enough to get it.
Regarding, "Electabilty, is nonsense. Random crap. A con. Bullshit. A lie." This is seriously some of the dumbest shit I have ever read and trying to explain otherwise is like explaining why water is wet. I'm seriously dumbfounded that I'd have to. There is a reason people vote for people that are running for office and not for people that aren't running. It's because electablity is a real thing. Pull your head out of your ass. Seriously.
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@zackdurant1584 regarding, "Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty." Yup.
Regarding, "You saying “you should need good evidence” to believe things goes against the definition of the word." Um... no. It doesn't. You CAN believe whatever the fuck you want. I don't dispute this. You SHOULD only believe things because of logic, evidence and reason.
Regarding, "Like I said earlier you don’t need evidence to believe something" I'm not talking about "need" and I'm not disagreeing with this statement. Again, you can believe whatever you want. There is a word for this type of belief... its called faith. It means believing in things for no good reason and it is a synonym for religion for a reason.
Regarding, "Because I don’t believe said things so I could care less if people said" Thank you for admitting that the difference between the two is that said things are affecting you. That's the difference... nothing more. And that if you were a believer in the flying spaghetti monster and weren't a believer in god then that is what you care about. That your position has nothing to do with principles.
Regarding, "If people believe such things I would ask them why?" Do you think that I haven't had this conversation with religious apologists before? Do you think this is my first rodeo and I have no idea why the religious think the things they do? And after they answer that question and their answers are fucking absurd... then what?
Regarding, "then I’d deduce from they’re reason as to why they believe it whether it’s logical or illogical." and "Those are all things in the natural world you could test to see if those things exist or not." This is you being illogical. You know you can't test the shit you want to claim exists. You know there is zero tangible evidence for your claims but you believe them and your out is it's fine cause you can't prove otherwise. That's not how it works to the sane using logic.
Regarding, "That’s entirely different from whatever caused the universe." No. It's not. There is a reason the Big Bang is the most widely accepted theory of how the universe was "created".... and that's assuming it was ever "created." It may very well be eternal. The universe might be in a repeating state of expansion and contraction where the laws of physics might be very different (or the same, who the fuck knows) after each cycle. Or the universe might be essentially what is a black hole in another universe. I'm not going to claim I know but I do think that among the explanations I think the idea that it was created by a single deity who, for example, cares very deeply about whether or not I eat shellfish to not be a plausible explanation in any way and it seems far more likely that that type of explanation is certainly just wishful thinking BS born in a time when people thought sickness was caused by demons.
Regarding, "The scientific method only works in the natural world" That's fine because is no good reason to think there is anything other then the natural world because faith is not good reason.
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Regarding, " You're points are meaningless" Wow. The irony. I take you don't have an intelligent reason why Tulsi is superior to Sanders then.
Regarding, "Her service gives her creditably to achieve peace." Bernie Sanders has been preaching a message of peace for longer than Tulsi has been alive. And the commander in chief doesn't need credibility to bring the troops home, only the will.
Regarding, "You are the one being an idiot." The irony. This is coming from a person who can't offer one decent reason why they think their candidate is superior.
Regarding, "I vote for the candidate who I agree with most and that candidate Tulsi Gabbard." Meanwhile you can't offer a single logical reason why you agree with Tulsi more.
Regarding, "Gabbard has a better chance of beating Trump, why are you ignoring my reasons, hypocrite." Except she doesn't. Your feelings are not evidence.
Regarding, "I did aka republicans see Bernie as a commie.
They see Gabbard as a young good looking woman who served in the military.
Swat that away dip shit." The think commie means, "someone who doesn't agree with them on everything." The only reason Tulsi isn't smeared by the right more is because they rightfully don't fear her and her chances of becoming the next president. But as soon as they would fear her and/or she became the nominee you can damn well count on these types of attacks being leveled on her. I suspect you are going to claim otherwise because you seem to have no intellectual honesty.
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@UCdMfejqJLxRocuQnueYRFqw Regarding, " They have the same economic polices," Just repeating nonsense over and over doesn't make it true. Look at Tulsi page and look at Bernies. They are NOT the same. I also gave you Bernies proposal to cancel student debt. I think you tried to claim that Tulsi also supports it but you don't bother to offer ANY evidence.
Regarding, "Tulsi is better on foreign policy" No. She's not. Sanders has preached a message of peace for longer than Tulsi has been alive. The only case you can make that she is "better" is only based on the fact that she focuses on that above all else. Even when she was asked about the gender pay gap she thought talking about foreign policy was a good idea even thou it wasn't.
Regarding, "Tulsi will get more republican and independent votes, combined" 1) Citation needed. 2)Also the "electability" bullshit is best used by the corporate media. 3) Sanders crushes trump 4) Is electability a good reason to support Biden who also crushes trump at the moment? Because it's not.
Regarding, "Pretty simple, yet you are so triggered you can't even let those simple facts soak in." If I'm "triggered" it's because everything you just said is moronic for one reason or another. If I'm "triggered" it's because dumb fuckers like you are going to split the progressive vote when you should be doing anything and everything to help Sanders. But if you want to think that me countering the things you say with evidence that I can prove is just me not letting your stupid shit sink it... well I can't fix stupid for you.
Regarding, "You seem to miss that said I would vote for Sanders in the general" Wow do I not give a fuck. I barely give a flying fuck about the general. The war that matters is the "democratic" primary.
Regarding, "What has Sanders said on Venezuela?" Americans by and large do not give a flying fuck about Venezuela. Sanders isn't going to go invading them if he is commander in chief so stop acting like this is important. It's not. He's been busy getting Amazon to raise their minimum wage and has been busy fighting for workers rights with Walmart workers because that's the type of shit americans rightfully care about and not about a country halfway across the globe as long as we aren't going to go invade it and Sanders wouldn't.
Regarding, "What about Julian Julian Assange?" I'll tell you what... this is easily the best point you have managed to make. Sanders should be speaking out more forcefully on this and I wish he would, but ultimately if you don't trust Sanders to do the right thing when it comes to this I think you are just being intentionally obtuse.
Regarding, "Gabbard is a better debater," Let's agree to disagree about your 100 percent biased subjective opinion. Her debate performance was ATROTICOUS up until she had her one moment that I concede, was great. But she is lucky as fuck that clown teed up his stupidity for her otherwise her night would have been just fucking terrible.
Regarding, "Sanders is too nice and unwilling to take the gloves off." "Too nice" can arguably be said about Tulsi as well. As for the gloves shit that gets old. Bernie closed a 60 point gap with Hillary while having the entire establishment and party working against him because he is different and better than your average politician. And that includes how he campaigns. He doesn't try to tear people down, that's not what he's about and if that's the type of politicians you like you may as well support Trump because that's ONLY what he is about. Sanders is about presenting his vision of America and about presenting solutions to solve the many problems we have. And people rightfully love him for it.
Regarding, "And don't forget Sanders supported Hillary Clinton" You mean Sanders did exactly what he said he would? As always? Go figure. Can you blame him for not wanting to be effectively blamed for Trump as president? I don't. And it is really important that Hillary, after losing, be blamed for her loss as opposed to Sanders and the movement he started. And don't get me wrong Hillary and company have tried to blame anyone and everyone other than her but ultimately there is reason why those excuses never stuck. Even Hillary's most diehard supporters had an impossible time defending the fallen queen on her blame everyone other than Hillary book tour.
Regarding, "Would Sanders endorse Harris, Biden or Mayor Pete?" Don't know, don't care. I care about making Sanders the next nominee of the party and he has a chance unlike Tulsi. If Sanders doesn't win I'll pretty much be rooting for climate change or a giant meteor at that point because this might be our last chance to get the change this country so desperately needs and deserves. And you are hurting those chances. For good reasons or bad you ARE a useful idiot for the establishment. And the same can be said of Tulsi as well.
Regarding, "She is the superior candidate," No. She's not. Bernie has been a progressive fighting for progressive causes for longer than Tulsi has been alive. He is a leader on domestic policy while tulsi is following him. He didn't need to serve the MIC personally to come to the obvious conclusions about war. His favorable are higher. He is polling higher. He demonstrates leadership that has moved the party (at least in it's rhetoric) so that his big ideas that were all called "pie in the sky" as recently as 2016. He is arguably why tulsi is known to you because without him tulsi wouldn't have been able to follow him in 2016 so that she could get props for it.
Regarding, "she would have a better chance to beat Trump" You have no evidence for this while I have polls for the last couple years that all show Sanders beating Trump by wide margins.
Regarding, "she would pick Sanders to be her VP." So dumb. Gabbard would have been first on the list for people I think Sanders should pick for his VP but that was before Tulsi decided to stab him the back and split the progressive vote. Now I'd prefer it be someone like Nina Turner who is doing the right thing and helping Sanders overcome the rigged system. That said... who the fuck cares about the bottom of the ticket.
Regarding, "Sanders most likely would pick Warren." You base this and most the things you say on your gut and nothing more.
Regarding, "Bringing up Sander's age doesn't helping your case." Huh? Well I love age. I love that I know EXACTLY what I'm getting with Sanders. Don't get me wrong I think I know what I'd be getting with Tulsi but ultimately I can't be nearly as sure because she is still really young. One of the reasons why Obama was able to dupe me was because he was young and because he didn't have a very long record for me to look at and those problems all exist with Tulsi while they don't for Sanders.
Regarding, "All you can do is fault a young woman who wanted to do something after 9-11. pretty pathetic." What's pathetic is the lack of intellectual honesty from Tulsi supporters. Their favorite bullshit argument about tulsi is how she is so great on the topic of war even thou she SERVED THE MIC PERSONALLY. And it wasn't ancient history or some shit. This was AFTER she had already held political office. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the fact that she seemed to take the right message from her service but she should have been able to figure this shit out without it and it makes me question her judgement. She seems to oppose the MIC for the same reasons warmonger John McCain opposes torture and supported gay rights... because of personal experience. Well you shouldn't need personal experience to come to the correct conclusions, especially on something as obvious as this. There was lots she could have done after 9-11 that didn't involve enabling the MIC. But she worked for the MIC, probably something you generally would have a problem with if it wasn't about your favorite candidate.
You and Tulsi are making it more likely an establishment fuck like biden or someone else wins the primary whether you realize it or not.
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Coyote regarding, "there's not much to say beyond citing these as times he went strongly against progressive ideals" Nobody is fucking perfect, not even you (spoiler alert). I honestly don't have the ambition to go deep into your shit list. This story isn't about that. I'm looking to address the specific issue at hand.
Regarding, "He never gave more than the Democratic party reason for voting yes, if he even made a statement." I am honestly having trouble understanding this sentence. Are you trying to say he hasn't spoken out in favor of internet neutrality? He has.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBHjfTKfdQs&t=112s
Regarding, "We're not the enemy here, we all believe in similar things, fight for similar goals--and we want him to be real," Ok, nevermind... now I am understanding what you are saying. Still I'm not going back to edit cause I'm lazy and instead I'm just going to go ahead and try to address you here...
Yes. We all are fighting for the same team. And I do understand that some are pissed at Bernie because he hasn't done things exactly how they wish he would. But I am convinced he is our best hope going forward to get the change we need and deserve as a country. The establishment is going to smear him every fucking way they possibly can going forward. They are going to try and use every angle and every dirty trick at their disposal because they fear him. He isn't their puppet.
And there are legit places people can point to. Again, nobody is perfect. You will never agree with everyone on everything. But I don't want bullshit like this to get in the way. This is not a legit place to get pissed. Non votes really are the same as no votes other than for the symbolic message. So I take issue with people blowing this up and pretending it is something it is not.
Regarding, "You know that to be true, so why take issue with me saying that he isn't always on our side when he takes positions that are clearly oppossed to progressive or leftist policies?" Because this is not one of those times. He has always been on the side of net neutrality. I honestly don't know why he didn't vote and I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt for not voting but ultimately is not important that he did. I am not a fan of McDonalds. It is only emergency food and an emergency bathroom for me. I don't need to go to McDonalds to tell them I don't want a BigMac today and if I did that would be about as meaningful as Sanders voting no (not meaningful). It is only important that McDonalds know when I want something and it is only important when people vote YES. No votes are fucking meaningless. So I take exception with those acting as if Bernie sold his soul and that is why he didn't vote. I believe there are many false actors looking to take advantage of the situation to pretend this is something it is not by people who are looking for anything to smear him whether it is legit or not. Almost all the times when people are trying to trash his record it is by using misleading info. That said it isn't perfect. Go figure... he has been in government for some time. But I am convinced he is about as good as it gets and I do trust him unlike I trust essentially any other politician.
I also see him as our best hope for getting the change we need. This country is really fucked up. Our politicians are really fucked up. The 2 major parties are really fucked up. Sanders has the best chance of making things better. If he is elected as a democrat in 2020 he could, for example, ban the party from accepting legalized bribes going forward among other much needed party reforms. Then there would be hope of having a major party that cares about the people rather than their donors.
Regarding, "We've just been wrong before and lied to often" I understand this and I agree. Obama for example really fucked us. I admit to being duped. He gave a good speech. The biggest lesson I think I've learned is follow the money. When Sanders runs a campaign with our money and not the corporations I trust him to see to our interests and not the corporations.
Regarding, "That is not misleading, and the languege I used was not exaggerated." If you want I will go back and look at your grievances more closely. I'm betting there are things in there I don't like. But I am tired and this is already waaaay too long.
Regarding, "not enough to enact meaningful change" I have no illusions that he will be able to bring about sweeping change. Both parties will fight him. The corporate media will fight him and smear him. But if could enact the simple party reform it would be a big start to something better. And even if he doesn't accomplish anything significant I at the very least trust him not to make things worse and, this is very important in my opinion, he can start to win the battle of ideas. Look at medicare for all for example. You know the establishment doesn't want to talk about it. He forces them to. He is single handedly winning the battle of ideas on this issue. We need that if nothing else.
Regarding, "If he doesn't take a stand against the economy-crippling wars" He stood up and spoke passionately about why we shouldn't go to war with Iraq in the wake of 9-11. He was one of the very few to not vote for the 700 billion dollar offense budget. He isn't Rand Paul on this one issue but he is light years better than the corporate dems.
Regarding, "kill or slow the movement" Sanders has done more to wake the country than anyone else in the country in my opinion. He is the only reason most people are beginning to realize the "democratic" party is shit. The establishment is a big ass machine that chews up and spits out most decent people. Sanders has survived it and is currently the most popular politician in the country for good reason. He has fought for the issues you care about all his life... with an exception or two but keep it in context. I am convinced he is the best hope for progressive values but he is going to need the continued support of progressives as everyone else is going to call him names whether he deserves it or not.
Peace.
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Regarding, "this story is about that." I considered the story to be about the FCC, net neutrality, and the vote for chair. Everything in the world is connected if you want to go far enough but I really did not consider this to be about war or foreign policy in any way.
Regarding, "war is the largest and most impactful business on Earth," The military industrialized complex is a fucking joke and I think we can agree it needs to be reigned the fuck in. As much as I can't stand most everything about Rand Paul I would be willing to vote for him for President just because of his ideas of the military. Personally if it were only up to me I would slash the fuck out of the department of offense. Jill Stein was considered crazy because she said wanted to cut it in half. I would go even further. Something like one dollar more than the next highest spending country in the world would be about right with me. That said I confess I am not nearly as well informed about foreign policy as I am domestic. I am no expert about a lot of what the country is doing not that I'm sure anyone really is (by design).
Regarding, "I understand that Sanders has spoken out against some military interests in the past" For me the biggest issue is Iraq. This was immediately in the wake of 9-11 and to me I think it took a lot of balls for Sanders to say what he did on the Senate floor at the time. Now with the gift of hindsight his words were prophetic. He was right about everything.
Regarding, "spreading the Russia hacking conspiracy." I personally think waaay too much is being made of this. I do think Russia fucked with our elections although I don't know for sure by how much or can even say specifically how. I should add that I think the DNC did much more fucking with it than they did. I do not think we are going to war with Russia anytime soon. I am much, much more concerned about us going to war with North Korea. That said I'm not even so sure we will be doing that anytime soon seeing as how they do not have resources to be plundered.
Regarding, "My worries lie with the impactful military decisions he's helped further" Can you be more specific? Forgive me if I am asking you to repeat yourself. I admit there were specifics in your original response to me that I didn't address because I was not looking to talk war at the time.... but now that we are here what are your big issues exactly? There really isn't much that I'm aware of, although I know there are some nuggets where Bernie is not perfect on this.
Regarding, "His votes" Again what specifically are you talking about? I've been of the understanding that for the most part congress doesn't bother to vote on stuff like this anymore. Instead they have been happy to let the President run amok making the decisions to fight their vague "war on terror" since about the time Sanders was voting against the Iraq war and against the Patriot act.
Regarding, "The machine that has..." Sadly I agree. We do desperately need to reign in the machine. I was dumbfounded that the Senate recently voted on a bipartisian basis to spend an extra 80 billion a year on them and most people in the country don't even know. The corporate media wanted to know exactly how crazy Bernie would pay the 53 billion per year for college but they didn't think the 80 billion a year for bombs was even worth mentioning. Sadly the only places where the 2 parties work together consistently are in areas that fuck over the people and serve the establishment. It is depressing.
Regarding, "Nearly all of our problems stem from the military-industrial complex." I understand why you would say this but I disagree. I believe that nearly all of our problems stem from money in politics. To me that is the virus that infects everything it touches. Money in politics enable the military industrialized complex. This country is an oligarchy. There was a great study that showed policy is dictated by what the super rich want and what the people want is utterly meaningless.
Regarding, "They may not be corporatists in the traditional sense," Sure they are. It is all about the money. But I am nitpicking and agree with everything you are saying in this area.
Regarding, "Sanders' votes to continue wars" Again I do not understand this. Again I really thought they have all (congress) gone out of their way to not vote on war since about Iraq and have given the President the ok to do whatever they want essentially unilaterally.
Regarding, "We've got to work with countries around the world for a political solution to get rid of this guy..." I think you would really have a good point if he said military solution. But he didn't. He said political solution. That is how we should be handling bad leaders and bad actors in the world. I don't have a problem with sanctions (although they are far from perfect and not a solution for everything). I do have a big problem with bombs.
Regarding, "those are foul, false words that should never leave the lips of someone who claims to be progressive" I consider myself a progressive and I could see myself saying that. But I guess if you think he his just lying (false)... well I just don't know why you assume he is just lying. Bernie seems as genuine as they come from in the land swamp creatures. Maybe I'm being fooled like I was by Obama but Sanders has been around much, much longer and in that much longer record I see very little to think he is just bullshitting people.... especially when I see how hard the establishment tries to fuck him over... that only speaks well of his character IMO.
Regarding, ""evil dictator" Assad lie" I don't think the US should have done what it did. I do think the US lied to make their case for war. But I also think you are lying to yourself if you think Assad was a good guy. That said there are zero leaders in the world I can say (I hope there are some... again foreign policy is not my expertise) are good guys (or gals of course).
Regarding, "you'll never see a Sanders presidency that decreases the military spending parasite in any meaningful way" I'm not sure how he could do this on his own. As commander in chief he could choose to not us the military how they have. He could refuse to sign big military budgets but it isn't as if the president drafts those bills. Again for me what is needed most is getting the money out of politics... at least for one major party... then that party will represent the people, win elections, and then the military budget can get slashed.
Regarding, "I promise you that centering your entire political awakening on one person or thing that can be destroyed or corrupted is a dangerous balancing act" I do not put all my hopes in Sanders. Rather I see him as the best hope for getting the changes I want.
Regarding, "Both corporatist and military agent must be usurped" I don't feel the need to distinguish between the two. They are both really just about making money and consolidating it for a few to me. The military is just a little more evil because of the killing.
Regarding, "This generation doesn't have..." I fear we may have already passed the point of no return. That said I try to be an optimist but it can be really hard at times.
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@kylehorvath9295 Regarding, "He is just speculating bud." He is doing more than that. "Speculating" better describes who you think JJ Watt is going to sign with. The OP is, "Well Hope you realize that DNC is very much capable of rigging the Presidential election too." except are they? They offer no evidence and expect us to just take their claim and agree with it.
Regarding, "DNC unequivocally rigged the 2016 primary" Yup.
Regarding, "there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence they interfered in 2020 as well" The DNC says Pete won the Iowa caucus. That's more than circumstantial evidence. But that's in the primary. Being able to rig a game being played on your home court in your hometown with a referees you are hiring for the game isn't the same as rigging another game. The primary is not the general. It's an apples to oranges comparison.
Regarding, "I don't think it's crazy to suspect foul play in the general election too." I don't doubt their is foul play afoot. But ultimately I need evidence and there is none when it comes to the general.
Regarding, "I however personally think the DNC didn't interfere in the general" We agree on this. Don't get me wrong I'd quickly changes this opinion if given some good evidence and wouldn't be shocked if some did come out but as of now I don't have it and I'm not going to pretend I do.
Regarding, "The DNC and its donor base really don't care if Biden or Trump get elected" Meh. Lots of money spent on the general says otherwise. If it didn't matter I don't think the rich would set their money on fire like that. That said I agree that it doesn't matter much. But it does matter a little.
Regarding, "The underlying detail that no one seems to address is that many people (Right and left) have little to no confidence in our electoral system and feel alienated by said system." I agree.
Regarding, "Its not blantant fraud (i.e. changing votes)" Are you sure? Exit polls in the 2016 primary indicated widespread election fraud in the "democratic" primary. And now they barely even do exit polls.
Regarding, "The average person realizes their voice has little sway on the political system and aren't educated enough in civics, economics, communication, law, or other subjects to properly articulate this feeling of marginalization." Even if they can articulate it and understand it that doesn't do much. The system is rigged top to bottom.
Regarding, "At the end of the day are you going to trust a pick pocket with your car?" No.
Regarding, "No evidence they're a car thief, just a pick pocketer right." I have contempt and hatred for the DNC. I think they are crooked and corrupt. I think they would happily cheat in the general if they thought they would get away with it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if evidence of cheating was found. But right now I don't have that. So I'm not going to pretend otherwise.
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@BB-ki7he Regarding, "the government they fuckup anything they touch" Canada pays half as much per person for their system, that doesn't leave millions uninsured, where medical bankruptcy isn't a thing, where they live longer, and their infant mortality rate is superior. If their government is "fucking up everything they touch" what does that say about the US health care system where let's compare: pays twice as much per person, leaves millions uninsured, leaves millions in medical bankruptcy, where their people die sooner, and their babies are less likely to be born alive.
Regarding, "Medicare for all does not get rid of profit motive" Literally the only thing the current system cares about is profit. Health insurance companies offer NOTHING of actual value to the system. They are just a leech that cares about making money. And they will happily do anything and everything to stop you from getting care if it means they can make a buck. They spend billions of dollars on people whose job it is to figure out ways to deny you coverage. M4A does not cure everything. But it goes a long, long way to destroying the profit motive of the current system.
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@BB-ki7he Regarding, "How is it a nonsense claim" Because you offer zero evidence for it and you act as if I should just accept your claim while providing no evidence for it. You are acting as if you have some innate point. You don't.
Regarding, "government already hides the problem the whole media hides the problem" Let's say I agreed with what you are saying. You still have provided zero evidence that, ""Medicare for all" would not help this it would only incentivize them to hide the problem even more." Maybe give me a single reason why this is true.
Regarding, "You are even afraid to talk about Iatrogenesis" More like I don't find much reason to be talking to you.
Regarding, "i bet you dont even know what it means" I don't. And you haven't given me any reason to care about it either. Let's say you provided evidence that, ""Medicare for all" would not help this it would only incentivize them to hide the problem even more," I might start caring more about the things you say. But as it stands you have been nothing but a waste of time.
Regarding, "You think im lying about it or something?" I think you are moron and you haven't that hasn't provided evidence of your claim that, "Medicare for all" would not help this it would only incentivize them to hide the problem even more," And you continue to prove that point by misunderstanding my problem with you and misunderstanding that you haven't backed your claim up with shit.
Remember when I was making the claim that canada has a superior health care system? And that they are better by literally every metric? Well I didn't just make that claim. I provided evidenced. You provide jack shit. And I can only wonder why I'm wasting my time talking to you.
Regarding, "Literally just type in iatrogenesis death into google if you dont know." I don't care at this point. You have given me less than no reason to.
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Jon Smith I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say. But regarding, "putting a purity test that even bernie cant past" I'm not sure what "purity test" you are talking about that Sanders can't pass. But people need to have a way of testing their politicians to see it they actually represent them and their wishes and when they fail them they need to be held accountable. I personally do think Warren is a "fake progressive," and the most recent evidence I have of this is because she voted for the 700 billion dollar per year department of offense budget. That is completely unforgivable to me. That is not "progressive" as I see it. That demonstrates a lack of values, and an agenda that is completely opposite of mine. When she does that she demonstrates she is actively working against what I want and so, rightfully, I'm not about to support her. Especially on an issue that I consider to be very important and fucking no brainer to be on the right side of. I'm honestly shocked she didn't vote no just because she knew her vote didn't matter. Would you like me to go back further with other examples of why I don't like her? And yes she has done a few good things but ultimately I do not trust her in any way shape or form.
Regarding, "and now bernie," the establishment is going to smear Sanders in any and every way possible they can to try and hurt him. They will attack him for being a "fairy duster" whose plans are not achievable, and at the same time they will attack him as being a fake progressive. The bottom line is that those attacks don't work on me because I know what his records looks like and it is a very, very long record. And I don't agree with it 100 percent, but ultimately I conclude that he is working for the issues I care about and he is consistently on the right side of the issues, so I support him.
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Regarding, "The laws we have they didnt break." Um. No. They absolutely do all the fucking time. You can tell by the fact they they are fined all the fucking time. They just don't give a fuck about the fines because they make more money breaking the law in the first place and have no fear of being put in jail for breaking the law. Do I really need to give you more specifics about this?
Regarding, "As for breaking up the banks. How?" Remember when we cut them a check for about 700 billion with no strings attached? We should have attached some fucking strings. This isn't rocket science.
Regarding, "Problem with the line in the sand you drawn..its a line you admit there no one that can measure up to it." Nope. I say there are few, especially when I am only limited to people that are currently in government. Nina Turner, Jill Stein, Russ Feingold are a few names of people I would happily support and I'm sure there are others that I don't know about that I would if I got to know more about them. I'm just telling you I'm not interested in supporting Warren. Sorry if you can't handle it.
Regarding, "Warren pushed to fight the banks" And currently the banks are bigger than ever. So why exactly am I suppose to be impressed by what she did?
Regarding, "She not just putting lip service to it. She been activily pushing for it and passing bills that help labor." She is just putting lip service to it and so are you when you follow it up with "help labor." Again, I want the banks broken up, I want glass stegell, I want criminal bankers put in jail, and anything less than that or fighting for those things are mere lip service to the problem.
Regarding, "He added millions of people on Health care that wasnt." Another fucking bandaid to appease people like you. The dems controlled all of government and they used their power to pass a fucking REPUBLICAN HEALTH CARE PLAN as opposed to a progressive health care plan like medicare for all. THEY DIDN'T EVEN FIGHT FOR A PUBLIC OPTION FOR FUCKS SAKE.
The only reason Obama won in 2008 was because he opposed the Iraq war. People wanted peace. And he took us from about 3 wars to about 8 wars. He set record deportations. He persecuted journalists and whistle blowers. He expanded the surveillance state. He made the Bush tax cuts permanent. Drones. He didn't prosecute torturers. Income inequality grew. He expanded drilling. And more. But if you need one piece of evidence of how much of a fucking failure he was as president consider the fact that after him the country ELECTED DONALD FUCKING TRUMP.
Is Obama better than GWB and Trump? Yes. But that is a pretty fucking pathetic bar to get under and I have an independent view of what makes a good president that doesn't involve comparison to other pieces of shit.
Regarding, "if you want money out of poltics question is how." First and foremost we need at least one major party that isn't complete dogshit and currently we don't have that. We need a progressive like Sanders to win the nomination and to reform the party from the inside out because they are a fucking dumpster fire who does not give a fuck about you. They only do enough to try and appease people like yourself so that you think they are working for you because if you realize how badly they were fucking you over you might burn them all at the stake.
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Regarding, "Christianity teaches us to be good for goodness sake" Um... no. It doesn't. It teaches you to be good because if you don't you will spend eternity in hell. And by "good," they mean that you are inherently evil, bad, and flawed. And the only way you can get into heaven is by asking JC for forgiveness of all your wrongdoing. That it doesn't matter how terrible a person you are. You can be Hitler and get into heaven as long as you ask for forgiveness for your sins before you die. And that you could be the equivalent of a saint on earth, who lives their life helping others, and you are going to burn in hell if you don't accept JC before you die. That's what your book of bullshit says. Try not to lie to yourself about it the way you are lying to me.
Regarding, "Christianity is the number 1 religion in the world because its opinion on right and wrong is the strongest." It didn't hurt that they did a really good job killing people of other faiths over the years. Would you accept this type of bullshit argument if Scientology was the number 1 religion the world? Because popularity has nothing to do with truth.
And I'm sure that your cult, because they have such a great opinion on what is right and wrong, goes out of it's way to tell their sheep that slavery is abhorrent and wrong right? I mean, something like that is worthy of a commandment right? Nah... instead your book of bullshit tells you how to conduct slavery and do it right in the eyes of your fake deity.
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@BobbyU808 Regarding, "I don’t demonize people because that is part of the establishment’s strategy to censor us." I don't demonize people either. Do you think I did that to you? I didn't. Even if I were to say something like you are "stupid" or the like that still isn't a demonization. I call myself stupid when it comes to many things. "demonizing" is about intent. About being innately evil. Dumb isn't that even when I do say that about people.
"Politicians are different. I will call politicians out if I think they are wrong" Which is pretty much always so I'm pretty much always calling them out. And not only do I question their actions but I question their morality. They are "demons" who have sold their souls. That's how they get where they do.
"I am wary of demonizing them because it can appear that I am demonizing their supporters." People are always going to gaslight you like this. There is a clear distinction between a candidate and a candidate's supporter. It's the difference between the boot and the people the boot is stepping on. One is a victim. The other is rightfully demonized.
Regarding, "The only politicians I will go hard at are establishment politicians like Pelosi and McConnell." McConnell is arguably one of my favorite politicians these days. He is "honest" about being a POS. It's not like he promises 2k checks or a 15 dollar minimum wage. That's arguably better than the ones who lie about it and pretend they support things only to sell me out.
I go hard at them when they are lying. That ends up being pretty much everyone. The older I get the more I think the cliche 'if voting worked they wouldn't let you do it' (or at least that's the gist of it) is true.
"My use of “peace” has nothing to do with war and peace. It is an olive branch of sorts" I know. Your point wasn't lost on me. You are clearly a much nicer person than I.
Regarding, "I recognize the humanity in most people," I don't really even try when it comes to the elite. But when it comes to the peasants... of course. Again... the people are victims.
Regarding, "I mostly support progressive policies but not their ideology." I'm not sure I understand the distinction.
Regarding, "Nothing wrong with ideology until someone strictly adheres to it and morphs into an ideologue. Ideologues are the most dangerous people on earth" I feel like you are making a big jump from "ideology" to "ideologues" and acting like they are the same thing.
So if I can follow you... you support progressive policies but not the ideology even though there is nothing wrong with an ideology only when you get extreme about it? How do you even support progressive policies without supporting progressive "ideology?" Do you have an ideology? If so what is it?
Regarding, "I do not think Jimmy dislikes Yang." I do. And I only think he covers him because 1) jimmy does like UBI and 2) jimmy can't resist stories of corporate media smears and they do do that of yang. Let's say jimmy was a yang supporter... he sure AF didn't fight back when aaron repeatedly said he don't like yang. And jimmy's not the type to keep an opinion to himself even if his guest is saying the opposite.
Regarding, "he is beginning to see the utility of universal basic income." UBI is not yang and yang is not UBI. I like UBI. I do not like yang... even a little bit.
Regarding, "Unfortunately, he has not studied Yang’s ideas in depth so he is vulnerable to progressive talking points against Yang," Go on...
Regarding, "the “regressive” nature of Yang’s ubi funding mechanism." It is regressive. Youtube video titled "Andrew Yang: Paying for a Universal Basic Income" the first thing yangs offers to pay for UBI is by gutting the social safety net. All the money that once went to pay for a social safety net is gone to pay for UBI. That's as regressive as you can possibly get when you should be having the rich pay for it.
Regarding, "I was surprised at Aaron’s near-hatred of Yang" I was too. Full disclosure: I loved it and feel the exact same way. I was THRILLED to hear him say it.
Regarding, "his use of progressive talking points against him" This seems like a bad way to dismiss what someone is saying. Just because something is a "talking point" doesn't mean it's wrong. You need to say why what he is saying is wrong and not this.
Regarding, "his heart is in the right place" That's just it... I don't agree with this.
Regarding, "his ideas are pragmatic" He has one idea that is worth a shit and even that is as bad as he can possibly make it.
I think he is shit on essentially anything that isn't UBI with minor exceptions on smaller topics.
Regarding, "I prefer focusing on implementing policies that will actually make a fundamental difference in our lives like universal basic income" He's trying to bribe everyone to keep the current shit system. He isn't even trying to keep the current shit system. He wants to make it worse by getting rid of the social safety net that does exist before giving you your UBI. And then... because he doesn't want to change ANYTHING else then all that UBI will funnel to the top just like it does now.
"universal healthcare" While running for POTUS yang lied and said he supported m4a. Then when his health care proposal came out it was not m4a. Not even close. He is a liar.
"ending endless wars." He sounds a lot like a neoliberal warmonger in a lot of ways.
Those things you just listed as important are things that yangs really sucks on. That probably is why aaron and jimmy aren't big fans.
"The only quicker way to bring about change is through an actual Revolution where blood is spilled and I prefer we not go down that road if at all possible." The establishment is lucky I'm a pacifist. Mostly I just think we are fucked. I don't pretend to have all the answers. But I'm telling you why I don't like yang.
Regarding, "Long comment but you asked. ~ Peace." I'd be a hypocrite if I had a problem with long replys but add some paragraphs next time. Thanks. Peace.
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@BobbyU808 Regarding, "I do not think you are demonizing me at all." Good. I'm not trying to. Even if we disagree about some things this is the type of conversation I enjoy. I should that there is a type of "person" that I do also demonize. It's people who I think are shills and disingenuous. They are largely to blame for how toxic alot of the conversations have become because their "arguments" are so terrible and they can't be swayed by logic and reason because they are paid not to.
"I’m only nice until I’m not." Same. I do concede I can be a real dick at times. Especially when talking about topics such as politics. If you aren't talking about war crimes and your blood doesn't boil you lack empathy in my opinion.
"I don’t love it as much as you apparently do." I do tend to reply to everything. Even things like this that I probably shouldn't.
"Jimmy did not refute him but neither did he join him." He did. Aaron first says he doesn't like yang at about the 4 minute mark. Jimmy's response, "I'm not on bored with andrew yang either."
"This does not prove anything but I have heard Jimmy talk about Yang in a positive light." More likely you heard jimmy talk positively about UBI and you are conflating it to extend to yang.
I've heard jimmy defend yang against bad faith smears but I've never heard him really endorse him as a person or as a politician.
"He once said that he is glad that Yang is running for mayor because he considers Yang anti-establishment." That's praise of "anti-establishment" and is not really praise of yang. I can't stand trump, but I'm glad he ran. It helped expose just how rotten the "democratic" party is. But again... that doesn't mean I like trump even the slightest little bit.
"while it is true that not all talking points are not “talking points” as I frame the term, some are." If you have a problem with "talking points" then you need to break down what is wrong with them. What you are doing is just dismissing points being made as "talking points" as if that refutes those points in some sort of way. It doesn't. In short I think you would be wise to just dump the terms "talking points" and instead just treat the things people are presenting to you as POINTS. Instead you seem to call them talking points and that is enough to just dismiss them outright for you.
"For example, “Yang wants to gut the social welfare net to pay for his ubi” is simply not true." It is perfectly true. Saying yang doesn't want to gut the social safety net is the lie. And that is what you are spreading. If yang didn't want to gut the social safety net to pay for UBI then his UBI would be built ON TOP of the current system. But that isn't what he wants. He wants to gut it to pay for UBI. Those are the facts. In the interview I cite the very first thing he thinks of to offer as to how to pay for his UBI is taking hundreds of billions of dollars that was going to go pay for our current social safety net and he was going to raid it. Make it disappear and use it to pay for UBI. THAT'S GUTTING. Please stop suggesting it's not.
"Yang’s plan, ubi would stack on top of social security, Medicare, Medicaid, SSDI and housing benefits, among other things." No doubt this is how he sells you his UBI but why you so convinced he isn't lying to you and would gut SS to help pay for UBI when he is already willing to gut food stamps to pay for UBI? He thinks one is "double dipping." Why should I think he doesn't feel the other is "double dipping?" Are you sure he wouldn't also be willing to gut SS as a compromise if need be? Or let's say yang is everything you think he is and he's everything I don't think. And he passes UBI. It's even funded progressively like I want. But then he goes away. How long until corporate dems and corporate republicans gut SS and say it's fine because you have UBI?
Ultimately yang has already told you he is going to gut the social safety net. I mean how much money does he need to raid from it for you to agree with that? Does he need to take every last dollar? Hundreds of billions of dollars per year isn't enough for you to consider it gutted?
"one can argue that this is the first step towards gutting the safety net, but conservatives used this same slippery-slope argument against proposed laws to ban automatic weapons." Dems have never held a goal of getting all guns. Republicans and corporate dems all have dismantling the social safety net on their to do list. It's a pretty apples to oranges comparison for that reason.
"Another progressive talking point, which Jimmy unfortunately ascribes to, is that Yang plans to fund his ubi with a regressive vat tax." As far as a "vat" tax I'm no expert, don't claim to be, don't care about this argument, and speak intelligently about it in the least. For that reason I'm going to skip it. It's already regressive because he wants to take billions of dollars earmarked for poor people to pay for it. The rest is just details to me.
"if someone lives abroad, his ubi would be suspended but would accumulate" Huh? Why would we give people living in other countries this? Not that this is very important to the discussion at large. But this seems very wrong to me.
"(since the one of the purposes of ubi is for the money to be spent in one’s community in order to stimulate the economy" So they can come collect a check and then go back to where they were living. Accumulate some money UBI. Go get it. Repeat.
I hope this isn't how it would work.
"This is real power because the elites fear only one thing - the country going bankrupt." Yeah. I'm pretty UBI is there plan. Especially as designed by yang. Bribe the peasants with a set number of crumbs that is as small as you can possibly make it (that's why you gut the social safety net to help pay for it). That way they are content and willing to overlook the fact that all the other problems are overlooked and all that UBI money funnels to the top just like it does now.
This country is headed toward collapse. UBI is the elite play to keep the gravy train rolling in a world where they understand SOMETHING needs to change. Universal health care would be far worse for their bottom line that UBI would be. So that's what they are going to give us. A small bribe to keep literally every other shit institution we have. A small bribe that is going to all end up in their hands anyway. Yippie.
"Ubi would level the playing field like nothing else besides a real revolution" While I do consider a good UBI a game changer and "systemic change for the better" universal health care and a living minimum wage would both do more in the long run to level the playing field. Those are actions that allow the people on the bottom to keep the money they have. Instead of just giving them money they know will go to the rich in the long run.
"he also supported ending endless wars" If you say so. He seems like a neoliberal warmonger from everything I've heard him say.
" rank choice voting" This really shouldn't impress anyone. It should be a given.
"imposing a ban on politicians from sitting on corporate boards and engaging in paid-speeches during and after leaving office" What a half ass measure in a world where we need all money out of politics.
"strengthening union rights, de-privatizing prisons, the public funding of elections" He talks pretty good talk here but I don't really care as I think he is a conman. Any of this only holds weight when I think someone isn't just pandering. Yang hasn't held a political office in his life. For that reason I shouldn't even be able to say he is a liar. I should only be able to realize that after he talks office. But he has already proven he was a liar on m4a. An issue that is far, far, far more important to me than of these issues. So even if I agree with the things he says why should I believe him? When I already know he is a liar on one of the issues that is most important to me?
Donald trump said he would "give everyone great health care." So what. That only means something when that person has credibility and your guy doesn't have that.
"working towards universal healthcare" You aren't slimy but I hope you felt a little slimy saying this bullshit. "working towards..." How weaselly. I want universal healthcare. I don't want to "work towards" it.
This is like trying to have your cake and eat it too. I'd respect yang more if he would just admit he doesn't care about it rather than lying about it like this.
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Regarding, "he wants to save America from capitalism" One of the things I like about Sanders is that he says what is on his mind and what he thinks. Never have I heard him say something like this. The closest he gets is when he talks about capitalism when it comes to a specific topic... like health care.
Regarding, "through reforms that smooth out the rough edges of capitalism." To me this is just a long way of saying regulation. Breaking up monopolies, ensuring safe working conditions, ensuring reasonable wages, protecting the right to unionize, and more are just regulations to ensure capitalism is not allowed to run amok.
Regarding, "But it doesn't work." It absolutely did.
Regarding, "Over the long run..." The notion that because regulations can be rolled back, need to be continually addressed, and aren't a perfect til the end of time means they "don't work" is really silly.
I really prefer to address all points as they are made but I'm not going to do that for you going forward. Like I said and you want to continue, this is pretty much all about capitalism and not about sanders. That said I will address some things.
Regarding, "Roosevelt ushered in the political and economical reforms, but he never..." It isn't reasonable to think someone can do everything. Those reforms speak for themselves and I take issue with what I think is diminishing great accomplishment.
Regarding, "A democracy only exist when..." Let's agree to disagree about your very narrow definition of what need be for there to be a democracy. There is a reason the word representative is a synonym for the word politician. For example I don't need to be "actually participat(ing) in the decision making" when it comes to an issue like the war on drugs. If I consider that a priority then I get to support a candidate and they are suppose to represent me on that issue. I don't need a direct hand for their to be democracy.
Regarding, "or Bernie, really inform the voters" Bernie Sanders is a guy who wants to talk tirelessly about the issues.
Regarding, "I would say they terribly misinformed the voters." Let's agree to disagree. And if they are "terribly misinforming the voters" then what would you call what corporate media does?
Regarding, "because they want to get rich and climb the social ladder." Yeah... it's called human nature and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Guys want to get their dick wet. It's pretty much their motivation for everything after they reach puberty. Without it you are likely to have a complete waste of a human being who accomplishes nothing with their life. Getting paid, getting the girl, and being popular drive us to do what we do. It helps make us productive and useful to society. You can't get rid of it and shouldn't really want to because without it you lose an important driving force for the human race. Who needs to aim for the stars if their isn't an alien to bang or, at the very least, a woman on earth to be impressed by it.
Regarding, "Can you not see that the politicians wants to be corrupted," That said there are exceptions and it isn't the only thing that drives us. There are still plenty of people who just want to make the world a better place, whose priority is looking out for their fellow man, and they understand that a place to do that is in politics. Not everyone wants to be corrupted even if there are some who are good with it. And those are the people we should be supporting for political office.
I feel like you are all over the place and now I too am all over the place when I want to have a very specific discussion. If you think I'm missing your point I'm fine with that. It really feels like all you care about is trying to piss on capitalism as innately evil. It isn't. It is merely an economic system. You hate it. Fine. I don't care.
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@buecherdrache1 Regarding, "Instead I get the feeling you didn't want to answer them." I promise you that I had trouble understanding the points you were trying to make. Looking ahead at your writing it is again really tough for me to understand and address properly. Your statements are like answers to questions I don't ask and your questions are just bad.
Regarding, "The press wasn't there, because nor was Biden shown to hold a speech, answer a question or anything like that, which always happens when big press is there." Wait... is this something you think the press should be covering? If so why don't they cover it when I do it? Was I asking why the press wasn't there or something? Because I didn't which makes your meaning tough to get.
Regarding, "You don't need to answer, just please take this into consideration." Who cares how the information was gotten to the dodo. Was this literally the first time the dodo every got this type of info on politician and an animal? Because if they have been political in the past I've never seen it and I was subscribed for a long time. So why is this the first time we have every gotten this type of political PR? And if trump and company did it would the dodo have covered it for him? And given the orange clown an undeserved bump? Based on nothing more than political theater?
Regarding, "It might be a cultural difference, because where I am from private lifes of politicians are, well, private." LMFAO. It should be and can be. The only reason that this becomes public is if team BIDEN WANTS IT TO BE.
Regarding, "So why is everything a political person does, aimed to influence the public in your opinion?" Not everything is. Take the legalized bribes they take. That is meant to be hidden and not affect you. But this... adopting a puppy. Of course they want that to affect you. That's why they are telling you about this and not the dirty money they are taking.
If this wasn't meant to influence my opinion of biden I wouldn't be hearing about. That's how you know it wasn't meant to influence you. This on the other hand is designed to make you like him.
Regarding, "Especially on a channel that is only about animal rescue?" I was a subscriber for a long time before now. It was only about animal rescue. Now they have chosen to be political. I hope it kills their brand. It should. Sadly it likely won't because people are sheep.
Regarding, "Like if Trump was shown on a channel about golfing how he is playing golf, no press, no questions, just him playing, I would just assume he is playing golf without any deeper meaning." Do they only choose to show trump playing? And not any other politicians at all? If they did would you then think it maybe has deeper meaning? Fun fact: first politician I've ever seen here. I guess a conservative, or libertarian, and nazi has never done so as well. And if a nazi adopted a dog should the dodo cover it? And give them good PR the way they are for Biden? (I am not comparing or equating hitler to biden. Please do not suggest I am.)
Regarding, "So what is different for you about this video?" Let's keep this simple.
Propaganda is defined as information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
Is this video information? Check.
Is this video biased? I've never seen them promote another politician ever and have zero reason to think they would have given trump this type of good PR while he was in office if they had the chance. Biased? Check.
"used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view" Used to promote, publicize and make you feel happy good thoughts about a particular politician and POTUS elect.
How exactly doesn't this fit the textbook definition of propaganda? Or do you just not mind propaganda?
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@Avery Benson Regarding, "I am sorry that I made you upset for unknown reasons" I literally just got done telling you exactly what makes me upset. Stupid crap like this where you pretend to not understand what my problems are and then in the next breathe contradict yourself.
Regarding, "You make valid points" If only this was the only thing you were saying.
Regarding, "in my opinion it is offensive the way you are saying it." Am I the only one being offensive? And crass?
Whether you like it or not we are talking about politics because this is political. That means we are talking about things like war, people without health care, education, mass incarceration, kids in cages, and more. These are things that should make your blood boil while you act like I have no reason to care about the topics of which I'm speaking.
And I've asked you this but you never bothered to answer but am I the only one guilty of this to you? And if not why I am I the only one you are taking issue with?
Regarding, "I sincerely do not think this is a propaganda" Care to offer anything of substance? I broke down how it fits every category of the definition of the word. You offer what exactly?
Regarding, "Thank you for considering that not everyone has the same opinion." I know people don't share my opinion. But I can only respect your opinion if you bother to back it up with something.
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@poketay Regarding, "this was taken two years ago" I have zero clue why people bring this up like it's an innate point or something. It shows nothing. Other than the fact that biden team was planning a presidential run a couple years when they CERTAINLY were. Any sort of legit presidential run by people like biden is planned years in advance.
Regarding, "This wasn’t a political propaganda scheme" Of course it was.
Regarding, "he just wanted to adopt Major." If that is the only thing he wanted why is the dodo covering this? I've adopted and I wasn't doing it for PR. You can tell, in part, because it didn't land on the dodo.
Regarding, "He came with no security guards, not even his wife, on an Easter Sunday." Let's say you were a politician and hypothetically wanted the good PR. You would also want it to not look like it's for PR and would act accordingly. As for "on an Easter Sunday" you cite this like it's evidence it's not pandering. It actually makes it look MORE like pandering. Because not only are you pandering to dog lovers but you are pandering to the religious.
Regarding, "He actually didn’t really want to take pictures," Do you believe everything he says? This is the same guy who lie about working in civil rights. This is the same guy who lied about being arrested with mandela. This is the same guy who lies about his record. Do you ever think he might be lying about this? Seeing as how he lies about far more important things?
Regarding, "The only reason why it’s coming out now is because he wasn’t in the political spotlight two years ago, so nobody cared." Wait... so people only care now because he's in the "political spotlight." Thanks for admitting that this political.
Regarding, "Of course, when the first EVER shelter dog gets to be in the White House, a lot of people are going to care and the media is going to report it." If trump, or any other politician (fun fact before you answer, being a nazi is a political ideology) engages in this type of blatant pandering should they all be covered like this? If mcconnell does the same thing tomorrow should that POS also get this same type of coverage from the dodo serving to increase his popularity and make people like him more than they should? One more thing to add the dodo is not "the media" or the news like you make it seem.
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@poketay Regarding, "If any huge/well-known political figure adopts a dog, it’s going to be covered by media outlets." Should it? Is that really news worthy? Do you want to act like this isn't treated differently depending on the politician, the outlet, and their "team?"
The dodo are not the "news." If there is a person or outlet that should be reporting this it shouldn't be them.
Regarding, "I don’t understand why adopting a dog would be considered political though." Literally EVERYTHING having to do with a politician is political.
Regarding, "Why is it political ONLY when Joe Biden adopts a dog?" Because he's a politician. And it is political for all other politicians because they are politicians.
Regarding, "Millions of people adopt, are those considered to be political and PR stunts as well?" Some of them certainly are. Let's say you are Jeffrey Epstein and not dead. One way you might want to make people think you aren't the monster that you are might be by adopting a puppy and getting the dodo to cover it.
Should they cover it? Nope. Because Jeff is a monster. As for if the dodo should be covering this for any politician the answer should always be no. Whether you agree with their politics or not. That is what the principled position should be. That is what not being political looks like. Not being political is choosing to NEVER use your platform to give good pr and propaganda like this.
Regarding, "This is only getting press recently because he’s running for President." Let's say you aren't one of the media darlings. Do they all get covered? Or do they pick and choose?
Regarding, "it’s still the same act." Whose doing it matters.
Regarding, "He contacted us privately about wanting to foster a dog and then he eventually ended up adopting him after he fit perfectly into his family and got along great with his other dog." Neat.
Regarding, "The Dodo is covering it because ..." Have there never been any heartfelt stories of conservatives adopting? If so why have I never heard them here? Why is this literally the first time I've seen them cover any politician? Do you support Biden politically? What if you didn't? Do you still think it would be ok to give this type of PR for trump while he was in office if it were possible?
Regarding, "If this was a PR stunt, he would’ve had cameras and media coverage at the time of the adoption." Is that really all you think it takes for something to not be a PR stunt? If this wasn't a PR stunt I wouldn't be hearing about it PERIOD.
Regarding, "This is only getting press recently because he’s running for President." Are you trying to prove my point that this is political?
Regarding, "If he wasn’t running then I doubt the media would care." You again keep lumping "the media" with "the dodo." Is there really no distinction between the two in your mind?
Regarding, "The Dodo only really covers special or unique adoption stories, otherwise this channel would be overrun with millions of random adoptions." Which is just fine until they use their platform to give PR for a politician. And I'd prefer to hear about a random adoption by a person who isn't using the dog as a political prop and for political gain. I know you think Joe would never do such a thing. But what if it wasn't someone like him? As if he already doesn't have a long history of telling lies for political gain? But let's say you thought they might just be doing it for PR? Should it still be covered like you think it should be saint biden?
Regarding, "Why would he lie about not wanting to take pictures because he needed to be back with his family on Easter?" Why would he lie about being arrested with Mandela when it's easily checked and proven false? Why would he lie about working in civil rights again in 2019 even after he went on the record in 1988 (i think, it was after his first failed presidential run) saying that he absolutely hadn't? Because politics and because people are dupes who believe far more than they should.
Regarding, "we all convinced him." LMFAO. Even if he didn't get the photo op he certainly wanted and played hard to get about he still would likely get to have people tell everyone about biden adopted a puppy. And then, after telling them the story of our hero there would certainly be many that would come to conclusions such as, "we can all agree that this was a wonderful thing for him to do." No matter the rest of their actions in their life like the OP has. Or, "It proves once again that Joe Biden has a heart of gold." Let's say hypothetically that this was propaganda meant to make people like biden, those are the types of things they might say right? Don't be afraid to think about this from the perspective of a person you DON'T already like.
Regarding, "Him adopting a dog is not political." You are the same person who also said, "This is only getting press recently because he’s running for President." are you not? If it were actually not political I'd be more inclined to agree if I weren't hearing about it here.
Regarding, "If Trump or any other big politician adopts an animal from a shelter, media outlets are going to cover it." Are you sure? All the exact same media outlets that covered this? Or maybe you are talking about media outlets like fox, the daily beast, alex jones and other propaganda networks. Are you really sure the dodo would cover it? And if not I again ask why I've literally never heard another story on the dodo involving a politician.
Regarding, "You keep saying it like it’s a fact, which it isn’t." Let's say you shared my opinion that this was only done for PR? What then? Do you make any distinction? And if so how do you explain the hypocrisy? Maybe it would be better to have a principle position before having to make the judgement call if it's PR or if it's not. Maybe it would be best to just not cover any politician?
Regarding, "There are many media outlets covering the story, not just The Dodo," Maybe we shouldn't lump them all together into the same pile shall we? Maybe we should make some distinctions between who should be getting political and who shouldn't? The dodo is absolutely a place that should NOT be political. Period. They shouldn't be using their platform to give that type of bump to ANYONE.
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@-king-6481 Regarding, "the dodo does these videos to support adoption and to help save animals" Which is a great cause when they aren't using the platform to give a politicians political PR. It's a terrible thing when they use their platform to give political propaganda such as this.
Regarding, "they’ve had famous people before" They have. Covering "famous people" isn't a problem. Covering politicians is. I don't care about them covering famous people. I care about them covering politicians. It's an important distinction you seem to be willfully ignoring.
Regarding, "because he’s *famous*." Has a famous politician never tried this PR before? If not why is this the first time the dodo has used their platform to give good PR for a politician? Jeffrey Epstein is "famous." Bill Cosby is "famous." If they were alive and well and adopting should the dodo use their platform to give "famous" people like them good PR?
Regarding, "earlier you kept saying that someone else’s comments and questions were hard to understand" I did.
Regarding, "i don’t see how, i read through them and they seemed just fine." Good for you. Still you offer no actual evidence or anything of actual substance here.
Regarding, "you might think this is propaganda," It literally checks ever box of the definition of the word.
Regarding, "you might think this is propaganda, and as there might be some public favor, that being the dog lovers, this is not propaganda." I have no clue what point you are trying to make. Someone else might gather your meaning but I honestly can't. I welcome you to try and clarify your meaning. Why exactly isn't it propaganda? How doesn't it fit the definition that we all use?
Regarding, "propaganda being “information, especially of a biased or misleading nature" It's biased because if trump were doing the exact same thing the dodo wouldn't be using their platform to cover it the way they did for biden. It would be covered... but by other networks engaging in propaganda. And you can tell it's propaganda because they are the same places that aren't covering this story about biden because BIAS. If this information isn't biased why have I never seen another politician of any kind on the dodo in the past? Was there never another story about a politician adopting a dog before this?
Regarding, " there’s nothing biased about it, except that he’s democratic, but that’s not biased." Thanks for this nonsense. It really brings nothing to the conversation. It's just like you are trying to intentionally confuse and conflate things by saying even what you think is nonsense in your own sentence. "there’s nothing biased about it.... but that’s not biased." Brilliant. Let's say the dodo would only do this type of story for a democrat? But not a republican or trump? That would be bias right? Well do you have any evidence that they would do this for trump or someone like him? Do you have evidence showing their decision wasn't made from a position of bias?
Regarding, "he is not trying to promote a political cause." Wait... that guy who just got done running for president doesn't support a particular political cause? Or political philosophy? Oh right... he obviously does. That's why he ran. To support his political cause and political philosophy.
Regarding, "You also kept bringing up how you don’t see Trump on here" I keep bringing up how I've never seen another politician of any political ilk here before. And I loved it. I loved that this was one of the last places I could go and not have political propaganda shoved down my throat. But those days are now gone.
Regarding, "trump does not have a dog. simple as that." I envy people who think everything is so simple. It must be nice. But let's say he was hypothetically adopting a dog tomorrow. Should the dodo cover it? And give the orange clown and terrible person good PR for it? Is that really how they should use their platform?
Regarding, "maybe you could try to not start every single sentence with “regarding” idk just a thought, makes everything you say boring to read" Nah. I like that people know exactly what I'm addressing and don't care if you think I'm boring. I'm not writing to entertain. Maybe you could try it for me? And specifically target the many direct questions I've asked you in the same manner that I have answered all of your questions.
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@theBravoTwins. Regarding, "OK!" OK!
Regarding, "So this entire comment section is You yelling at people" For the people wondering and asking why I tend to start points by using "regarding," I do it because I like it when people know EXACTLY who and what I'm addressing. You don't even bother to start your post by directing it at anyone but I'm going to address this as if you are talking to me.
Regarding, "You yelling at people" What exactly do you mean by yelling? I thought that typing in all caps is yelling online. I may type the occasional word or phrase in all caps to try and emphasize my point but I never "yell." Or at least my understanding of what that means in this context. You aren't perchance just being a hypocrite are you? And criticizing me for having the audacity to ask people questions and not just agreeing with everything they say in the exact same manner you are doing of me?
Regarding, "this entire comment section is You yelling at people" This simply is not true. This comment section is also made up of people like yourself who are "yelling" at me. This comment section also includes me asking lots and lots and lots of questions. And they have almost exclusively been ignored. It also includes people displaying the after affects of effective propaganda. The entire comment section is not just me "yelling" at people.
Regarding, "u have no factual evidence" I'm not going to lie this is actually quite funny coming from the person who started their post with easily provable BS.
Regarding, "whether if this is propaganda or not" I literally brought out the definition of the word and walked everyone though how this exactly fits that definition. You are the one not bringing evidence or facts. Maybe your time would be better spent telling me and everyone how this doesn't fit the definition of the word propaganda?
Regarding, "have u noticed that the date was MARCH 28 2018!" I have. Have you noticed that I've addressed this already?
Regarding, "THIS IS YEARS AGO WAY BEFORE THE ELECTION!" I can tell you really think you have a good point because you wrote it in all caps and put an exclamation mark at the end of it but I fail to understand why you think this is such a good point. You just stating this like it's a gotcha moment, drop you mic and walk away. It's not. It's evidence of nothing. In fact... if you are claiming that this information is only being talked about because of biden's presidential run you are only proving my point that this IS POLITICAL. If it wasn't political and had nothing to do with politics we should have been hearing about this years ago when he wasn't in office (planning a presidential run and a go at another spot in office but whatever).
Regarding, "whether we believe in someone or not, let’s be positive" Wait... it doesn't matter if we believe them or not? It doesn't matter if they are just pandering or not? Do you really not care if you are being manipulated?
Regarding, "and not hypocritical," It feels like you are calling me a hypocrite but not bothering to back it up with anything of substance. Very hypocritical of you mr. "u have no factual evidence."
Regarding, "This is a happy story
whether it’s for show or not" To be clear you think that even if this was done for the sole purpose of political gain and that even if the puppy is being used as a prop for nothing more than political propaganda it doesn't matter? And that makes sense to you?
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@carolynl3933 Regarding, "Has no one noticed that Clint Holmes is a troll?" I find this funny coming from a person whose comment has nothing of value to offer.
Regarding, "Look at how many people they managed to successfully agitate." And still they can't be bothered to answer simple questions directed at them. I'd like to think that if they are agitated it's only because on some level they realize they don't have good answers to the areas they are being pressed.
Regarding, "Just ignore people like these" Yes, just ignore people who ask you questions. Just ignore people who don't share the same views as you. Just shut off your brain and refuse to engage anyone outside of your bubble. Whatever you do DO NOT try to justify the beliefs you hold. And yes, this is sarcasm.
Regarding, "not like you can win any argument anyway" People seem to care too much about "winning" in my opinion. How about debate for the sake of debate? Because what we think matters? Is that never enough for you?
Regarding, "“Regarding” gibberish" You must be remarkably unoriginal to go here for an insult.
Regarding, "Yes Clint go ahead and respond with the same starting phrase again" I will. Thank you. And thanks for your approval. It means everything to me. /s
Regarding, "you honestly really need a life" This is what you say when you have nothing of value to offer. Let's say you thought this was propaganda? And you found it on a channel that you loved? And you loved the channel in the past in part because, like you have said over and over, it was one of the last places on earth you felt you go and not be bombarded with propaganda? And you just got to enjoy puppy videos? And you love puppies because duh? But then you honestly get what you think is propaganda? In a world that you think is already filled with too much propaganda? Let's say all that were true, is my reaction really so unreasonable?
Or are you just trying to minimize the points I'm making without actually bothering to say anything of value?
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@readthecomic7946 Regarding, "This video was taken WAY back in 2018." LMFAO. Kinda. It was taken in 2018. But the notion that 2018 is like the distant past or a long lost bygone era like you are framing is asinine.
Regarding, "This was BEFORE he announced that he was running for president." Yup. Do you want to act like a presidential run only begins the day they announce? That major campaigns like this aren't planned meticulously years in advance?
Regarding, "How would this be propaganda if it was taken so long ago?" Let's start with what the word "propaganda" describes. The "propaganda" is this video. It wasn't created long ago. It was only recently posted.
Regarding, "your point regarding them not promoting trump" My point is actually far more broad and that I've never seen them promote ANY politician before this.
Regarding, "Trump, never adopted a dog, so how exactly would they promote him?" They have never used this platform to promote ANY politician to be the best of my knowledge. Even if they did it really proves nothing. Look again at the definition of propaganda. It doesn't require that information be biased to be called propaganda. It's more of a red flag and warning that it's propaganda. It's not required in all cases. If it were the definition would instead be, "Propaganda is defined as information, OF* a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view."
Regarding, "This channel is all about animals and them finding their forever homes" I know. Which makes it a perfect place for political propaganda. It is a perfect place to gain the sympathy of dupes who predictably let down their guard and shut off their brain when a puppy is around because puppies are adorable.
Regarding, "Trump never took the time to do that." If he did do you think they would cover this? Do you think they should cover it? In the same manner they have for biden with the predictable response of making people like the orange clown more than they should? Should the dodo be using their platform to predictably give good PR for any politician?
Let me ask you a few more questions that maybe you can answer while others won't...
Let's say you KNEW it was PR. Biden straight up told you so. That he doesn't care about the dog but they wanted to adopt them for a good photo op and good publicity. He even knew of a friend at the dodo (this is all hypothetical and is not meant to accurately portray what I think happened) that was going to cover it for him. They had it all planned out to even try and make it look as "normal" as possible. It can't look planned or the effect isn't as good. So you know all this but it's not like you have it on tape or something. It was just what you yourself heard joe biden say because reasons.
Can you agree that if all this were true you wouldn't want the dodo to cover it? And give him exactly what he wanted? Or do you want to claim as others have that it wouldn't matter. And that it would still be a feel good story?
Let's assume you wouldn't think it would good to give him the PR and propaganda he wanted. How do you justify that belief but still hold the belief that this is just fine? What exactly is the difference between the two? Wouldn't it maybe be best to just be of the principled belief that it has no business here regardless? Because they are politicians and literally everything they do is political? Wouldn't it be better to not leave it up to individual judgement? And just leave politics out of it completely?
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@TheHuxleyAgnostic Regarding, "Forcing the vote won't get you M4A "now". " I don't care in the slightest. I mean, I want it now and we should have it now but getting m4a immediately is hardly the only way we "win" the battle.
Regarding, "At best, you get the vote, it fails, and it gives you ammo to use against anti M4A candidates in 2022" This is way more than enough for me to want this to go to a vote.
Regarding, "Worse, you don't get the vote" This is hardly worse. It's actually what we have this very second.
Regarding, "you paralyze the House" LMFAO What? This sounds like nothing more than silly fearmongering based on nothing. Citation required.
Regarding, "propaganda against the progressives" Again this is already the status quo so there is nothing lost by trying to get a vote.
Regarding, "progressives won't let them get minimum wage passed" So we should let the possibility that silly arguments like this "progressives won't let them get minimum wage passed" stop us from fighting to get nice things? And that makes sense to you?
Regarding, "won't let them get lowering social security eligibility passed" If corporate dems try to make arguments like this it only makes them look terrible. That's bad how exactly?
Regarding, "whatever else they can use to make it look like progressives are hurting the people" You mean like they are already doing right now and nothing changes?
Regarding, "they could even orchestrate losing the speakership to McCarthy, and blame progressives." To be speaker you need a majority of votes. So how do you think they orchestrate mccarthy as speaker? By voting for him? Because that's the only way mccarthy becomes speaker. Or if progressives vote for mccarthy but they obviously aren't going to do that either.
Regarding, "Jimmy's plan isn't 100% risk free." Then give me a single risk that I can't easily swat away as nonsense.
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@TheHuxleyAgnostic Regarding, "If a house speaker isn't elected, the house is paralyzed." But a house that won't even vote on m4a isn't paralyzed?
Ultimately if you know anything about pelosi you would understand that she WILL bring m4a to a vote if it means the difference between her being speaker and her not.
Regarding, "No bills would be brought up to vote on." I don't care. Do you know what they do actually like to pass?
Regarding, "Corporate Dems could just keep putting up Pelosi as their candidate for speaker, and if you keep making protest votes for someone else, the house will stay paralyzed." LMFAO. This would absolutely not happen. If it did I like you worry about I don't care. Let them explain why not voting on m4a is worth "paralyzing" the house.
Regarding, "You just need enough no shows, or abstentions, to lower the threshold needed to win." Wait, it's our fault if they don't show up to vote or some shit? I have trouble taking you seriously.
Regarding, "Have 9 corporate Dems play sick. Have 3 threatening to abstain." LMFAO. You sound the same type of idiot who would be the first ones blaming progressives for this.
Regarding, "Not sure someone who doesn't know how the government works can swat away anything on the topic." LFMAO. Really funny all things considered. Do the Koch brothers pay you for this crap? Or are you just a useful idiot for the establishment? Pelosi doesn't want this. She thanks you for your bullshit and stupidity.
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Jo regarding, "why tax it? was not a stupid question, it's a plant that I can grow at home how are you going to tax that?" Yes it was a stupid a question. Tomatoes, flowers, carrots and lots and lots of things are plants that you can grow at home and if you asked why tax those they would be equally stupid questions that demonstrate a lack of understand as to how the world works.
Regarding, "you responded to a perfectly reasonable question" Nope. You are an idiot and I told you why.
Regarding, "out right lies about what you spend on war so who's the liar?" You are the liar because I can demonstrate why you are lying. You just asserting I'm lying isn't exactly the same. You don't seem to understand that because you are not very smart.
Regarding, "I know more about your corrupt government than you do" You assert this after this thread. That is beyond stupid. Do I need to elaborate as to why? Meh, even if I did I doubt you would be able to understand.
Regarding, "what fucking patience" The type of patience you would have gotten had you not said retarded things from the very start and continue to exclusively say.
Regarding, "have a nice day maybe watch a bit of william binney when you get the chance" You are just a jerkoff who thinks they are a genius because they watched a Jimmy Dore clip and now feels the need to masterbate themself about it instead of actually addressing any of the points I've made. You suck at life.
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Jo literally everything you say is dumb. It is truly remarkable. Forgive me for not addressing all your shit. I don't have the time or ambition. I will address some things thou...
Regarding, "if you were to decriminalise it than it would not be the commodity you make out to be, that would need legalisation, which is something different" Yes there is a difference between decriminalization and legalization but I have no understanding why you think this is all of a sudden relevant to the topic hand. It is almost as if you want to try and talk about something new because if you actually bothered to address any of my points and stay on topic you realize you have nothing intelligent to say.
Regarding, "if you think you can turn cannabis into the new high tax cigarette type product of the future, think again," Aren't you the same idiot who started his stupid thoughts with, "assume away! it makes an arse of you" and now all of a sudden you want to make assumptions about what I think even though I have done nothing to express the belief are suggesting I have.
The beliefs that I have actually expressed included things like, marijuana should get taxed because that is literally what we do to essentially everything (I'd like to add a DUH). That was literally the ONLY thing this thread was originally about. I don't blame you for wanting to branch out and off this topic because there is no way you can stay on it without looking like a complete and utter dipshit but keep in mind that if you wanted to talk about other shit you should have started threads for those "thoughts."
Then all of a sudden we found ourselves talking about war even though that has NOTHING to do with why weed is taxed but we got there none-the-less because you are stupid. I expressed other beliefs that including the FACT that the us does not spend most of it's tax dollars on war, even if I do think they spend far too much on war. Then there is the belief that MJ taxes can and would be used for infrastructure because of the compelling fact that they are doing so this very second. Then I had other beliefs such as I owe you ZERO respect, you have said things that are empirically false, and that you are a fucking moron (and a couple others).
If you have something to say about topics that have already been discussed and you want to elaborate on them go ahead but in all honesty I'm not interested in trying to talk about whatever random new bullshit you want to talk about next because you have done nothing to demonstrate that it would be worth my time. You have lied and said utterly moronic shit. I guess I share some blame for ever entering this thread considering has epic fucking stupid content of your original post.
Lastly regarding, "don;t you think?" In all honesty I am having a difficult time trying to understand what you are even trying to say. If you are trying to suggest that because there is a black market MJ industry currently it would have any affect on a legal MJ industry then you, as usual, would be moronic. Any black market industry is immediately destroyed when MJ becomes legal nationwide. That said maybe you were just being so brilliant I wasn't able to understand what you were saying because, like I said, I'm not even sure what the fuck you were trying to say.
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brandx regarding, "maybe if you knew what you were talking about," What a lazy and pathetic way to address what I say. How about you say why you think I don't know what I'm talking about rather than just assert it.
Regarding, "you wouldn’t sound like someone who’s never actually BEEN to other countries" You don't understand why saying this is idiotic do you. I'm not going to claim to have seen the entire world but I have left the country about 10 times. Again this is just lazy and pathetic attempts to discredit what I say without actually bothering to address what I say.
Regarding, "How could ANY country be a a super power with only their economic success?" Can I safely assume that you think the US is the only current superpower then? I also don't claim to care about being a superpower. That is not valuable in and of itself and think that only someone with really fucked up priorities would think this is very important. I do think that you need to understand that military power is impossible to sustain without economic success and the current bloated military budget puts sustained economic success in jeopardy. The US could cut their military budget in half and STILL have the largest military budget in the world.
Regarding, "Military power is what keeps others from just waltzing in and taking over." This isn't entirely false. We certainly are doing a good job just waltzing in and taking over countries.
Regarding, "Having the best technology for the military is NOT cheap." Is the sort of retarded as shit you think to justify the need for spending as much as the next 10 countries in the world combined, even when most those other countries are allies? I also am not obsessed with the need to have the best military technology. I am more obsessed with the need for the best health care, and education, and culture, and working conditions, and middle class and...
Regarding, "And as far as being free, I’m not talking about criminals in the prison system" Of course not. Because freedom totally isn't about how many people we put in jail.
Regarding, "and believe me, the vast majority belong there" Of course you think they do. Crime is uniquely American. The rest of the world has it wrong... not the US. It isn't that the US locks up too many people, it is that the rest of the world need to be imprisoning more of their citizens.
Regarding, "I challenge you to name ANY country where the citizens are more free than we are...go ahead. I’ll wait." You are an idiot.
https://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/10-countries-with-more-freedom-than-america-monetarily-speaking.html/?a=viewall
http://www.newser.com/story/189338/35-countries-feel-more-free-than-us.html
http://www.offthegridnews.com/current-events/you-wont-believe-which-19-countries-have-more-freedom-than-america-so-says-this-new-study/
http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/01/05/top-5-countries-freedom-press-us/
https://www.alternet.org/11-things-other-countries-do-way-better-america
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/02/move-over-america-canada-is-the-land-of-the-free/
Regarding, "See the difference is I know what I’m talking about from FIRST HAND experiences." Anecdotal evidence is only good evidence to fucking morons. The same types of morons that want to make claims about other people without knowing anything about them.
Regarding, "You know what you see on Facebook or maybe “the view”" You know... morons that make shit up about others. The fact that I fucking hate facebook and would never open an account there and don't watch the view are completely unimportant to dipshits like you. Facts are not nearly as important to you as they should be.
Regarding, "You’re out of your league snow flake." Only because your "league" is somewhere below a kindergartner.
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@thespeedofchillax6691 Regarding, " warren in 2016...the progressive left practically begged her to get in the election against Clinton" All true.
Regarding, "she promised the ppl of mass she would finish her senate term before doing anything else so she waited till this time around to run" As if that's why she didn't run. The reality is that she stepped aside to make room for the corporate Clinton. Did she promise she wouldn't endorse a true progressive like Sanders instead of the corporate tool as well?
Instead she thinks now is her time. Now that the progressive movement has a clear leader and champion. Now she wants to run instead of doing the right thing and helping the guy we know the establishment is going to work overtime to fuck over.
Regarding, "i think it's comical how many ppl that are now huge supporters of bernie are playing tribal politics," Ok bud. Tell yourself it's "tribal politics." When in reality we keep getting more and more reasons to not trust her. It isn't the fact that she has been on the wrong side of litmus test I have, like when she didn't support DAPL protestors, or when she voted to give Trump and the MIC more money for bombs than even the orange clown wanted, or that she has said she will happily take legalize bribes if she makes the general, or that she is dividing progressive support making it more likely a corporate clown like biden get the nomination, or the fact that she has a way of waffling on M4A and her convictions can't seem to be trusted, or the fact that corrupt corporate media seem to have really started liking her while true progressives tend to only get shit on by then, it must be a tribal mentality on my part and not about the substance.
Regarding, "bernie himself constantly goes out of his way to not disparage her and they are very close friends" I fucking love Bernie but I make up my mind about people and don't let others do it for me. It's a side effect of NOT being a sheep or tribal.
Regarding, "are people's memories that short or are most of you all just that young that you aren't old enough to remember much before this last four years politically?" I'm old as fuck with a long memory. Speaking of that I'm not a big believer that people really change. In a related note Warren was a self described republican in the 90s. I don't find that to be common among people I consider to be true progressives... at least not that late in life. Real changes like that tend to only happen when people are younger.
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@calmingwaves3134 Regarding, "when people say they're done" Man do I want to be done with this but nobody is perfect and what you say is so frustratingly terrible.
Regarding, "you made two glaring logical errors. So even if you don't see this, at least this can help anyone who reads this. Data does not let anyone know the future--it is just the closest we have to predicting the future so it's ethical to use it." When did I make this logical error? When do I say we can't make predictions? I'm pretty sure I don't. I've even made them for fucks sake. When I do it's my "gut," when you do it it's "data."
Regarding, "As for Biden starting a war with Russia and it being partly on me--If you put your child on a school bus and that child dies in a bus accident, some people feel guilty, but they shouldn't, sending a kid to school is the right thing to do, if there's no other way, no need to feel guilty, you did the best you could with the information you had." Biden is a warmonger. Biden is poking Russia. Biden is far more likely to start war with russia than trump is. That's information you have isn't it? While you support him? While you enable him and his war agenda?
Are trumps supporters not partly responsible for trump's actions? Or is that privilege only reserved for you?
Regarding, "you did the best you could with the information you had" Everything thinks they are doing their best when they are actually just supporting terrible candidates for terrible reasons.
Regarding, "How?" Well, I don't start with self defeating attitudes. I'm also prepared to lose. If you are never prepared to lose you really don't have any principles.
Vote for something good. Even if you are likely to lose. Or vote for evil. And own their terrible when they win. It's on you.
Regarding, "Your analogy is good if your alternate vote saves all your sons from death." If we ALL die, we die. So be it. Some things are worth fight for. Some things are worth dying for. But you would vote for the guy who is going to kill your first born. And sleep like a baby after it telling yourself you did good.
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@SkillsofAWESOMENESS Regarding, "I can't tell if you're insulting Iowa or the caucus system." Both really. The point I was trying to make is that a system that doesn't always allow you to support the candidate of your choice is not a good system. That isn't a "feature." That's a flaw. As much as I think nobody should be supporting yang I think that everyone should be able to support him should they choose.
Regarding, "the way I see it is, either Yang or Bernie builds up momentum in the early stages and then carry that through the rest of the states." The way I see it a campaign for yang, a person who has zero experience in politics, no record to look at to know if he is legit or full of shit, and should have nobody's support but sadly will because people are idiots, hurts Sanders, the guy who actually has a chance to win the primary because he actually deserves trust and more, and hurts his chances to build that momentum you are talking about. Yang takes support from people like Sanders, not biden, who gets to cling to his bullshit about "electability" because of the help he is getting from yangs campaign who is splitting progressive support in an election where we need be united.
You know about momentum. Maybe spend some time caring about how yang is fucking with it.
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Regarding, "Your NFL example isn't accurate." Yes. It absolutely is. Your original statement is "Their party, their rules." The NFL example is exactly the same. The NFL is their league, it's their rules. They CAN do whatever they want but just because they can do whatever they want that has NOTHING to do with whether or not what they are doing is fair or not.
Let me try to break down why the things you have said are silly in question form. Would it be fair if the NFL let the pats start with 20 points each game? Well the point is that people obviously understand that it is not fair. But if all the things you have already said were true then you would have to concede that it is "fair" if you actually believe the garbage you say.
Ultimately the point I'm trying to make that you don't seem to understand is that the fairness of rules is a completely independent thing from those rules. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able make rules. I'm saying they shouldn't be able to make unfair rules... like they do... like giving the pats 20 points would be.
Regarding, "I said do something about it, act according." I really don't give a flying fuck about this part of your statement. It is just a pathetic way to excuse what they are doing and saying that it everyone else's fault somehow they are not "acting accordingly." I guess if the NFL gave the Patriots 20 points the that just means the Steelers need to "act accordingly" and start a new football league.
Regarding, "Meaning form another party..." I feel like subconsciously you know what they are doing is not fair... and that is why you think people should be starting another party.
Regarding, "What use are DNC rules if their candidate loses?" Like for example if their candidate loses to an orange clown after they did everything they possible could to prop up their establishment shill? Like superdelegates were suppose to make sure "unelectable" candidates don't get the nomination but instead they ensured the unelectable candidate was the nominee?
The fact of the matter is that unfair DNC rules is actually helping their candidates lose. The DNC doesn't care about that thou. You are misunderstanding the purpose of their rules. It isn't about wining. It is about maintaining the status quo.
Regarding, "The problem is the public not the DNC" You say you aren't an idiot but you demonstrate that you are.
Regarding, "And yet it was Trump vs Clinton. Is that a coincidence?" No its not. The party put their thumb on the scale from the start. Sometimes by using the rules unfairly, like when about 500 superdelegates came out to support Hillary before a single peasant was allowed to vote. Like when the election was called on a day NOBODY voted. And sometimes by just blatantly ignoring their own rules. Why do you think DWS was forced to step down?
Keep polishing that turd. Keep pretending it is "fair." And I'm going to keep calling you an idiot.
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Hello regarding, "You don't see a difference between the major parties and third parties?" Yes. Of course I do. I think you are misunderstanding my point if you think I was suggesting otherwise.
Regarding, "It's where the money comes from." Bernie Sanders isn't all of a sudden going to be raising his money in totally different place depending on where he would run.
Regarding, "the Democratic Party refused to fix itself" The party is a dumpster fire. They are not going to all of a sudden change unless they are forced to change. Sanders could force them to change but only if he wins as a democrat. I think you would be wise to help him.
Regarding, "They seem to be actively working against change." Yup. I'm not claiming otherwise.
Regarding, "I'm not giving any support to that party," I guess we think of things very differently. When I vote I don't consider myself to be supporting the party of the candidate I'm voting for.... I'm supporting that person. I care about supporting good people and honestly don't care what party label is on them because the person is forever more important than a party label. That is my point. I love Bernie Sanders. I support him. I don't care if he wants to call himself a dem, green, independent, republican, martian, or other. That isn't what is important to me and don't think that should be important to anyone.
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Hello regarding, "the Democratic Party is corrupted." The "democratic" party is sucks. I referred to them as a dumpster fire. You don't need to tell me the ways the party sucks. I know they do. Again, that isn't the point.
Regarding, "You say that it hasn't affected Bernie's integrity" I didn't say that but now that you mention, yes, I do believe that to be true.
Regarding, "the way he pushes the Russiagate narrative" I think this BS is being completely overblown. I don't think this is, at an important issue and at all an important issue to him. He doesn't call for war with Russia. He has merely said that the activities surrounding their actions be investigated. I consider that to be very reasonable. I do think they fucked with us. I think it is only logical to think they did. They are being accused of the exact same shit David Brock and correct the record did so I don't think it is that unreasonable to think they did. I also think the US fucks with everyone else so I'm not going to act like them fucking with us would be a great surprise. And just because I think they did and I think it should be investigated I hope that doesn't mean people think I want war with Russia. I don't. Not in the least.
But again I think you are missing my point. My points is that if you think Bernie has been corrupted and if you think Bernie talks about Russia too much then DON'T FUCKING SUPPORT HIM. Period. Don't support him if he runs as a Green or Independent. Stop acting like the label is more important than the person.
Regarding, "The Democratic Party..." Again, more shit about why the party is a dumpster fire. It seems clear to me that you are missing my point. Yes the party sucks. We don't disagree on this.
Regarding, "The only way that they are going to be forced to change..." and "he will not be allowed to win the 2020 primaries." So it seems pretty clear that you think and want them to change. I am pretty sure that your do nothing til they shape up approach is not good personally. And even if I thought it was good strategy (and I don't) I personally am not willing to wait. This country needs change right fucking now. Sanders will be allowed run in the 2020 primaries. I'm not going to pretend the game isn't going to be rigged. It is. Which is all the more reason to try and help in my opinion. I also think voting in the primary is one way that you can force the party to change. If you want them to be progressive then vote in it for the most progressive candidate you can find. And if they succeed in forcing a corporate shill into the general you don't owe them jack shit and are right to vote for anyone else.
Regarding, "Bernie is allowed to win the primaries, I might be willing to support him at that point" It would really be nice if you would support him before that because he isn't likely to get to that point without some help. If you want progressive democrats then fight for it. Don't just bemoan how much they suck. And I'm not saying you should be doing so blindly. Do it if you believe in him. If you don't then don't. But don't act like the party label attached to him is more important than the man himself. It isn't.
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@dont90know Regarding, "sure I'm the moron" Well we agree on this.
Regarding, "I can only imagine how angry you must constantly be about everything." Perpetual war, corrupt politicians, income inequality, mass incarceration, kids in cages, deportations, millions without insurance, medical bankruptcy, and more. Yup. I'm pretty much furious when I talk about anything relating to politics. Why doesn't stuff like this make your blood boil? Either 1) you don't really understand the world in which you live or 2) you lack human empathy or 3) you are paid well enough to not care.
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@mosesfilms947 Regarding, "ok he is a politician now" Thanks for clearing that up and being willing to concede the blatantly obvious. Bravo.
Regarding, "he is not a career politician" Because the problem with politicians is that they are all just good people that get corrupted by the system or some shit? Maybe Mitch McConnell was a great person who just got corrupted after getting there with the best intentions. Or maybe it's the type of field that scumbags are drawn to because it's a position that comes with power and money.
Regarding, "You have to look at a person's reasons for running for president." Sure. You know what I don't have to do? Take a person's word for why they are running for president.
Regarding, "If you do some research on Yang you will realise he doesnt even want to be president" LMFAO. Why? Because that's what he told you? Because if he were there to set himself up for the rest of his life he would have just told you and been honest about it right? Someone who is there to cash in wouldn't lie about that. That would be going to far.
Regarding, "he sees problems that are a threatening our country" Does he? What's the problem with our government and our politicians? According to yang they don't know any better. According to yang they are out of touch and just don't know how to help the American people. Yang is full of shit. The problem is that our politicians are bought. They sell their soul and serve the corporations and big money interests because they are being paid, not because they don't know any better or just don't get it. They do get it and just don't give a fuck. Thank god for yang... to come save us from a guy who has proven for decades that he isn't corrupt, isn't bought, has experience, has been fighting the good fight since forever, and has been consistently right about everything since forever even when it wasn't politically convenient.
Regarding, "do some research on him" I've done my research. And I've done it far better than you. I for example know he is a politician and have known it for some time. You know what else my research has produced? No experience and no record. Now why would that be a problem? Well first I want experience for literally anything if possible. I prefer the cashier at mcdonalds and the guy flipping my burgers have experience if possible and those jobs aren't really that important. But I REALLY want it for important jobs. Like if I were ever going to have major surgery (and I have), I want the person doing it to have experience. I don't want it to be their first time using a knife. Because obvious fucking reasons that I shouldn't need to explain they are so obvious.
But it's even more important than that for politicians. Because I really want that experience for politicians because with that experience comes a record. That's how I get to know in no uncertain terms what people do with power when given it. I'm not looking to take politicians word for what they want to do when in office... I want to see it because I know most of them are fucking liars and you should as well because again... it's common sense.
Look at all the candidates running. Look at how full of shit they are. Everyone is pretending to try and be progressive (well, mostly) and everyone is pretending to want M4A. Well the way I know they are full of shit and pretending and pandering is because they have records that I get to look at. Your clown doesn't have it and I'm not in the habit of taking politicians at their word and neither should you.
The best two ways to actually know what a politicians is about is 1) follow the money and 2) study their record. Those things don't lie and your clown doesn't have one of them for me to look at. Way less important than those things are... listening to them speak. And when you do that you should be doing so with great skepticism because again... obvious reasons I shouldn't need to explain because everyone should know politicians tend to be liars.
I beg you. Wake the fuck up and use some common sense.
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@mosesfilms947 Regarding, "no need to be so toxic" Fair point but you really shouldn't have too much trouble understanding where my frustration comes from. This world desperately needs the hope and change that was promised long ago but never came. Not only do we have an entire establishment looking to crush us we have people willing to give faith to a guy who hasn't earned it. I fear for the future and fear America is going to fuck this up because they are really good at it. It's frustrating. I'm admittedly frustrated.
Regarding, "When it comes to policy I prefer Yang the most." Let's say I agreed with this... and I don't. So what. He hasn't earned your trust. Let's say Biden came out with best policy in your opinion... what would that really be worth?
Regarding, "What would u say are types of experiences" There is a reason that being a senator or being a governor is considered the norm for any potential candidate. Those positions are most similar even if there isn't anything that is perfectly comparable to the most powerful position in the world.
Regarding, "and qualities you need to be a leader of a nation." First and foremost trust... and it isn't easy to get from me coming from any politician. I'm rightfully really, really skeptical of all politicians. After that all the obvious stuff... intelligence, empathy, compassion...
Regarding, "The only legal requirements you need to be president" I'm not talking about the legal requirements. I'm talking about my requirements. I'm not talking about who COULD be president, I'm talking about who SHOULD be president.
Regarding, "Thise dont sound like lies at all but substantive solutions." Let's be real... I know yang supporters like to pretend it's about other things but what they really care about is UBI. That's what you are talking about here right? Maybe democracy dollars sprinkled in but it's really about this. It's an interesting idea whose time isn't now. 1) There's zero support for it that I know of. Maybe there is a senator or guy in the house that's for it right now but I don't know who they are. 2) The way yang proposes to pay for UBI is regressive. 3) Without fixing all the other major problems of our society all that money is going to funnel to the top the exact same way it now. 4) I fear that if implemented it would be used as an excuse to dismantle all other social programs.
Regarding, "Have you listened to the man speak?" Um... of course. But I'm not a big fan of words from a politician. Look at how terrible of a conman we have in the WH. It's remarkable anyone buys his BS. But they do. Well there are actually some epic great conmen out there. Obama was one of them. That guy could talk the talk. He had a supermajority and used it to give us republican health care, double our wars, and left the country in such a shitty place they gave the keys to country to an orange clown. And he even had a record. It was how I was duped by him. I looked at him voting against the Iraq war, and thought that because that was partly why he was even elected in the first place it would mean something. I was wrong because he was an epic great conman who had a record even. The biggest lesson I learned from that mistake was follow the money better. I didn't do that like I should have. If I had I would have realized he was selling his soul.
Let's say an epic great talker like Obama was saying everything yang is saying... you would believe him right? But should you really with the benefit of hindsight?
Regarding, "He knows wtf he is talking about" So does any epic great conman. The best lies are rooted in some truth.
Regarding, "just like bernie does" Bernie has earned trust so it's just not the same.
Regarding, "I wouldn't mind Bernie as president but some of his solutions are outdated." No. They aren't. Because the main problems haven't been changing. Income inequality levels are reaching great depression era levels. Perpetual war, millions without insurance, corruption in government and money in politics, the environment, the banks, education, criminal justice reform, the minimum wage and so much more are not problems of a bygone era. They are problems that have perpetual, persistent, and need to be addressed just as much as they did decades ago. And again... without fixing those "outdated problems" all that UBI money is going to go where exactly? In our pocket for a second before going to the richest of the rich.
Regarding, "Yang has a vision for the future that I and millions of other Americans get behind 100%." The only thing that's really unique about his vision is UBI. You really love that vision? Ok. That doesn't mean you should be trusting that guy to carry out said vision.
He needs to run for office, not at the top, and work his way up proving that he is legit with actions and not just words. That's how trust is built and how he should reasonably go about getting people to support him.
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@mosesfilms947 Regarding, "This is the reason why I like Yang, he has got nothing to do with the establishment and there interests." Are you really so sure? What do you think the establishment's game is this primary? In 2016 it was clear... we all fall in line and support the anointed queen. In 2020 the game and their strategy has changed. If they tried a strategy like that and put one person up against sanders he would crush them and they would lose. So instead they are going with a throw anything and everything at the wall hoping something sticks (because they knew how flawed biden was and how he wouldn't stick for most). Their strategy is to have so many candidates that support becomes spread so thin no candidate gets a majority of delegates on the first ballot and force it to a contested convention where they hold all the cards. Harris isn't a threat to take lots of sanders supporters. But she will take some in a huge state like Cal. The same can be said of Bloomberg and the state of NY. And so on. None of them take many votes from sanders but they all take a handful and those handfuls add up.
But let's say you are the establishment trying to plot this strategy. Wouldn't it make sense to try and get someone who can try to effectively take votes from the left somehow? But how can you do that? How could the establishment effectively come at sanders from the left? They can't. At least not with any candidate that is known. So you find someone, anyone, willing to play ball and do their dirty work for them. They need to be unknown and not have a record that could tip off the plan or the game is up. Now I'm not saying with certainty that this is going on but isn't it at least a little bit conceivable to you that this may be the case? Wouldn't that be a pretty good plan from their perspective? So maybe don't conclude with certainty that, "he has got nothing to do with the establishment and there interests."
When I talk to yang supporters and mention that he doesn't have much experience one of their favorites to come at me with is that he did work with Obama. I'm not sure what you think about Obama as you have never addressed him. I clearly do not trust him and that's the person they like to cite for his "experience." To me that sets off a million red flags because Obama is conman and establishment as fuck. Do you agree with that? Or do you still have "hope and change" beer googles on?
Regarding, "He holds the interests of the people and you can hear this when he speaks." No. You can't. Everyone loves to think they can just listen to people and see into their soul. They can't. Just stop. Because no matter how much you think you can... and you may even be excellent at it, you can always be fooled.
I made my living playing poker. It was my job to read people. And I was good at it. Far better than the people around me (for the most part) who were trying to do the same. And still I don't sit here and think that I can just see into a person's soul reliably when they talk. I know that bluffing is forever going to be a thing and that some are really, really, really good at it. That's why even I, a person who read people professionally for a lifetime, don't spend my time trying to read these people. It is not a reliable source of information. So I follow the money and study their record.
Regarding, "Of course though maybe holding a position in office will be a test of character, but that is where people go to get corrupted and greedy." Politics isn't some evil that corrupts people, it's a field that attracts evil people. There are exceptions but if you want to know why so many terrible people are in politics my explanation is far more apt. Warren didn't get "corrupt" after entering politics. She was a 90s republican and a liar before she got in the game.
Regarding, "so it cant be regressive if it is working for other countries" Um... no.
These are what these words mean in the context I'm using them here. Regressive (or regressive tax) = people on the bottom pay a higher percentage of income than people on the top. Progressive (or progressive tax) = people on the top pay a higher percentage of their income than the people on the bottom.
It's regressive because math. I thought that was your guys thing?
Regarding, "TO be honest I dont think anyone wants to have to file for welfare. Would you? I wouldnt." No. I wouldn't want to file and never have. But it should still be there for those that need it and there are people will still need it because it's not like 12K a year ensure everyone is going to be able to get by. Not even close.
Regarding, "It is a system that keeps the poor poor." Those people might stay poor but it's not like it's because of the welfare. This sentence is just nonsense.
Regarding, "You get rewarded for being poor essentially" You go from realizing that no one wants to be having their hand out to calling it a "reward" for being poor practically in the same breathe. Ug.
Regarding, "UBI rewards you for doing pretty much anything." It has NOTHING to do with what you are doing. You could do nothing and you still get it. Therefor it's not a reward for anything. It would be an entitlement. As for whether or not it should be I'm honestly not sold on that. Health care and education on the other hand... well I have no question that those things should be entitlements and those fights are far more important to me. (Note: yang is not what he should be when it comes to health care.)
Regarding, "People will have a cushion to fall back on if things go to shit." That's what social programs are designed for. It that's really the problem you want to address wouldn't more targeted and specific solutions be better capable of addressing this problem? And not a widesweeping entitlement across the nation.
Regarding, "I disagree" You can disagree all you want but UBI does nothing to change the system at large. And the current system funnels all the money to the top. That's a fact.
Regarding, "What is wrong with giving the people money" I'm not saying it's "wrong." But I will absolutely say it's not my priority. Not even close. My priorities are getting money out of politics and ending corruption (number one because it's the problem that makes all other problems impossible to solve), universal health care, ending perpetual war, protecting the environment, providing education, raising the minimum wage, breaking up the banks and monopolies, criminal justice reform (and ending the war on drugs), immigration reform, protecting workers and lots and lots of shit that's really important to me. Just giving people money whether they need it or not isn't on my list of priorities especially if it means putting all of my actually priorities on the backburner.
Regarding, "If Yang doesnt make the nominee" He's not going to be the nominee. And you get one vote to cast in the primary. I hope you make the right choice.
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@chadsimmons4496 Regarding, "so my opinion differs from you, that's me being intellectually dishonest... Got it." We can have our own opinions. We don't get to have our own facts. And it's a fact that the majority of Tulsi's supporters would support Sanders if she dropped out today.
Regarding, "Ron Paul voters." Aren't really relevant to this conversation if they aren't going to support any other dem nominee if Tulsi dropped out. It's about the people that would go elsewhere in the party if Tulsi isn't around.
Regarding, "I sure as heck wouldn't be smearing Tulsi Gabbard" I love Tulsi but I have substantive problems with her including the one I've mentioned. It's my opinion that progressives should be helping Sanders overcome the rigged game, not taking votes away from him. She is taking votes away from him. Not every last Gabbard supporter, but most.
Regarding, "especially while giving Warren a pass." I trash Warren. And among the reasons I give for not liking her include her not running against Hillary in 2016. Her not endorsing the true progressive Sanders when he did run because she didn't. I trashed the shit out of her for running in 2020 because I thought she too would split the progressive vote. It is only intellectually honest of me to have the same objection for Tulsi while Tulsi does the same thing.
Regarding, "Warren has the voters you should be worried about taking Bernie's bubble." I type this as I go and address all the points I see as I go along the way. I've already addressed this. I am worried about Warren's effect. But if you think it's a valid point for Warren why don't you think the same of Tulsi? Or is this merely you trying to be me? As for why I haven't talked about Warren specifically til now... well it hasn't been about her til now.
Regarding, "There are a dozen corp dems splitting that vote." The establishments behavior here and their disregard about splitting their vote can be explained two ways. I think there is truth in both. First: they don't care about splitting their vote because for them it's all about stopping Bernie on the first ballot. Every candidate will steal at least a handful from him especially in their home states. Kamala takes Sanders voters in California, Booker in Jersey, O'rouke in Texas and so on. Secondly the establishment, while trying to act like Biden was their guy, knew exactly how deeply flawed their candidate of choice was. So they threw everything at the wall hoping that one of them would eventually stick... kinda how Kamala has been doing and kinda how Warren, the new darling of the corporate media, has been doing. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually they do coalesce around an establishment candidate of choice.
Regarding, "This is the same conversation I have about Jill Stein "stealing" Hillary votes." I voted for Jill Stein in 2016, in a swing state. Clearly these things are not the same. I'm not saying anyone, even Bernie is "entitled" to anyone's votes. He's not. But progressives should have common goals that we should be working towards. And if you are doing things that works against those common goals, like making it more likely Biden gets the nomination, I'm going to start questioning their sincerity towards progressivism. Jill Stein had every right to be there because she had a lane that hillary didn't fill. If I didn't vote for Jill I wouldn't have been voting for Hillary. That is simply not the same as Bernie/Tulsi. They ARE running the same lane. Then you have to start to asking why and fearing the effects.
Regarding, "It is an assumption. Period." There is plenty of polling done about second favorite candidates. There is also common sense. Bernie and Tulsi are closely aligned. Their voters come from the same pool. Progressives. It is far more than an assumption at this point.
Regarding, "The people who write Bernie/Tulsi...are not splitting anything." These are people trying to have their cake and eat it to. They are trying to show support for more than one candidate when the fact of the matter is that they only get one primary vote to cast. I assume they plan to cast it for Bernie, but clearly they also like Tulsi, as they should, because they are in the same lane.
Regarding, "You included that with Tulsi/Bernie...two different groups of people." How different are they really? They aren't. They are all progressives. The only difference is who they think should be at the top of the ticket. They are all progressives, with similar goals, even if one specific difference persists. And the reality is that if either of them is going to get the nomination the chances of getting one of the two is best if they would be working together from the start rather than opposing one another and splitting their shared voter pool.
Regarding, "Anyway. I'm done with this age old debunked Ralph Nader gave you Bush psychopathy, ingrained in way too many Americans." Because I'm that guy who you think it's ingrained into huh? Meanwhile I voted for Nader. But this time it wasn't like my voting for Stein. That time I wasn't in a swing state. That time I was in a state whose election was decided long before I voted. So I voted for Nader because I liked him and because I wanted to support more than just the two major parties and show my support for more options. Had I been living in a swing state at the time I absolutely would have voted for Gore. Nader did "steal" my vote in a way. But only because I knew my vote wasn't going to matter. And at the end of the day we can determine how many votes were "stolen" and how elections would be different without people in the mix. And no Nader didn't cost Gore the election. But you can't act like him running doesn't affect other candidates because candidates don't operate in a vacuum... they affect the people around them and often times how they affect things is pretty easy to see and predict ahead of time.
Regarding, "The point is the condescension from the Gore side, unable or unwilling to follow their own advice and vote Nader...while assuming "the other" should just fall in line." I'm not telling tulsi and her supporters they need to fall in line. I am trying to give logical reasons why I think they should be supporting sanders and not tulsi. If ultimately they disagree so be it. This is an area where we can have a difference of opinion at the end of the day. But we can't act like Tulsi's campaign doesn't affect Bernie's campaign. Because it does. How important that effect is is what people can have their own opinions about.
Regarding, "Bernie has been saying the same thing for 50 years. Has been on the right side of most every issue during that time." Which is why, among other things, that all progressives, including Tulsi, should be backing him in a world where we know the game isn't fair.
Regarding, "Nobody listened BECAUSE of the "split the vote" concept." I've never heard bernie talk about it ever. But I'm not bernie. And there are plenty of people who understand the concept. Again... joe biden in 2016. If you think he didn't run because of his son you would be wrong. He didn't run because he was clearing a path for hillary and wasn't willing to chance splitting the establishment vote because splitting the vote is a real thing to be considered.
Regarding, "Tulsi ABSOLUTELY still needs her voice on that stage." Don't get me wrong, there is an argument to be made about benefits of her running. I love another progressive talking about progressive issues. I love her message of peace and about taking it to the MIC. But ultimately I think the downside of her running outweighs the good. In an election where every vote and every delegate matters I would prefer ensuring that Bernie gets every vote that is possible. It's my firm belief that progressives would be wise to be unified from the start. If people don't find the points I make compelling, so be it. But I'm going to make them. The "democratic" primary is far too important for us to fuck it up and I'm bothered by what I see as a very big, very avoidable mistake being made in real time.
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@minniemins2837 Regarding, "I want a vote but I don’t think doing it this way is wise or strategic" FYI I honestly don't take you seriously in the least. I'm only addressing you further not for you but for anyone else who might read your BS.
Regarding, "It doesn’t tell us anything new." It's already telling me things that are new. I thought AOC would fight for m4a. I thought nomiki konst wasn't a hack. But because of force the vote I'm ALREADY learning new things.
Regarding, "It just makes M4A look weak to the public" Meanwhile, in reality, the corporate media is able to portray m4a as "pie in the sky" and "impossible" in part because it's not voted on. Not voting on m4a is BEING weak.
Regarding, "when it loses by" If it loses then anyone who votes against it puts a target on their back. That's why pelosi and corporate twats are willing to fight so hard to not vote on this.
Regarding, "They have every reason to vote yes because it’s guaranteed to fail anyways." For it to fail some people need to stop it. Just because some clowns can find shade is a nonsensical reason to not fight and expose the clowns you can. I also find "guaranteed to fail" really funny coming from a person who doesn't even want to vote.
Regarding, "burn their bridges" So bridges with people whose job is to stop the public from m4a are suppose to be important to me? They aren't. Not even a little bit.
Regarding, " if they are banned from any committees?" AOC literally just got kicked from a committee so playing nice is already proving to be a failure so....
Regarding, "AOC is already getting punished for her recent comments about Nancy." I guess AOC should just act like a corporate dem then. Then I'm sure we can have m4a right?
Regarding, "They will bury her and she will be impotent." I guess AOC better beat nancy to it and become impotent herself then. Brilliant. If she doesn't force the vote she ALREADY IS impotent.
Regarding, "now you have a M4A bill that has failed" And then we can start the process of targeting every single person that helped it fail... and we ALREADY are.
Regarding, "When does M4A actually pass?" I'm not sure. Sooner than if we don't have a vote in the first place that's for damn sure.
Regarding, "How long will that take?" Sooner now that targets have been place on all the people that stopped it from happening the first time.
Regarding, "what are you doing on these comments here to push legislators to vote?" Well I'm not under the impression I'm talking to them directly and changing the world single handedly. I do hope to get the occasional person to sign the petition to force the vote but in all honesty I'm more hear to vent my frustration with people like you who make me feel like I'm living in the movie Idiocracy.
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@brianmattingly3204 Regarding, "no one could be worse than Trump." Trump is incompetent evil in a world with actually competent terrible people. Competent terrible people are obviously worse. Some of them call themselves democrats these days... for example mike bloomberg.
Regarding, "At least with an establishment candidate (yes I know, ew), we can stop the bleeding." Biden is largely responsible for the shit show we are in. He doesn't have a magic wand to make coronavirus go away or give people jobs, or money, or health care. Biden as president only ensures that after his disastrous presidency the "left" will be blamed for the oncoming depression and we can continue the cycle down the drain as the next trump gets to follow him.
Regarding, "we HAVE to stop the bleeding." As if Biden does this. Let's reward a party that rigged it's primary for the guy with dementia. It's more like you are cutting yourself or like you have stockholm syndrome.
Regarding, "It is a band aid. But band aids serve a purpose." This country needs open heart surgery while you offer a "band aid." What could possibly go wrong? That couldn't possibly lead to backlash after the obvious disaster coming down the road.
Regarding, "I am simply not willing to look anyone in the eye whose relatives have died or suffered" What about the record numbers of people Biden has helped put in jail? Who are being put there in blatantly racist numbers? What about the many people biden has helped kill with his warmongering? What about women who accused him sexual assault? What about those people? You just gonna tell them orange man bad?
Regarding, "I refused to vote" Is that what you think I advocate for? I don't. I say vote. But have standards for getting your vote. For example, don't vote for anyone that you consider evil, even if it's the "lesser evil."
Regarding, "That'll be a great argument..." That would be a stupid strawman argument.
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@brianmattingly3204 Regarding, "You want to compare and grade Biden on 50 years of politics, or do what's best for the country." As if Bidens long history of being terrible has nothing to do with a discussion about what is best for the country? Really?
Regarding, "The Covidiot-In-Chief has managed the country even more into the ground as though it were one of his buildings or casinos." As if Biden has is blameless for the shit situation we are in? As if civil unrest in a world where he exacerbated the problem like no other with his crime bill isn't the reality? Trump bad. I get it. Really I do. That doesn't magically make biden not suck because he obviously does.
Regarding, "in another 4 he will have dismantled the justice department even more, installed another Far Right supreme court judge, and installed fascist control, deployed the military on US soil and created a secret police." Sure... all trump needs to dismantle society is 4 more years. Nevermind that biden is the one personally responsible for Clarance Thomas being on the court because of his disgraceful actions toward anita hill. Nevermind that biden happily supports the patriot act and spying on americans. That he and obama watched peaceful protesters have their rights trampled at DAPL.
Just once I'd like a biden supporter try to justify their support by talking about biden. You guys would be so freaking lost if you couldn't talk about how trump is bad.
Regarding, "This isn't about Biden not earning your vote" LMFAO. Maybe Biden can put that on a bumper sticker. "This isn't about earning your vote. -Joe Biden 2020
Regarding, "t's about stopping a Narcissitic Paranoid Schizophrenic from destroying the great experiment we call America." Whatever you got to tell yourself to rationalize supporting a pathological liar, warmonger, and corrupt piece of shit with dementia.
Regarding, "Incidentally NO ONE believes her now" I do. It isn't hard to believe the guy with obvious boundary issues and wandering hands would be capable of such a thing.
Regarding, "not a Single news agency bc she has been disproved" LFMAO. The corporate media buried the story until after he was the presumptive nominee. And "disproved" is utter nonsense. You can say you don't believe her if you want but what you are actually saying is just lies.
Regarding, "But what is worse - 1 (false)...or 13." Anything over 0 is unacceptable. And just saying something is false doesn't make what you are saying true.
Regarding, "you are voting for Trump!" I have as much trouble taking you seriously as I do trump supporters when you say shit like this. That's not how voting works. Trump supporter would say the same except that I'm voting for biden. All of you are morons spouting nonsense to try and rationalize supporting a piece of shit.
Regarding, "No matter what you tell yourself to help you sleep at night." I'm voting for good. I'm not voting for someone that sucks. That's you. Tell yourself whatever you need to to help you sleep at night. I know you will. Trump supporters sleep like babies as well.
Regarding, "You will have helped reelect the most dangerous man in American history." TDS much? He hasn't even been the worst president in my lifetime. GWB still holds that title.
Regarding, "I'd say grow up." I'm old as dirt.
Regarding, "you were willing to stand idly by as America plummeted into the abyss for your ideals" LFMAO. It's like you are hoping america crumbles so that you can be right. I would be glad to be wrong. I'd be happy to not have the next trump after the next obama. But history has shown us where this story goes.
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Regarding, "I can admit my mistakes even though they are rare." LMFAO You can't even admit your mistakes without making another mistake while doing it in the same fucking sentence.
Regarding, "that doesn't change anything else" You think the things you do because you are stupid beyond words.
Regarding, "Most min. wage workers don't work full time, that is the point." Is that how you justify and rationalize lying?
Regarding, "So in the end my point stands." So in the end my point that you, a person who is ignorant of facts, is not be taken seriously about anything, including their opinions. You only get to have a valid opinion if you are not a fucking liar about facts while doing it.
Regarding, "I post many facts on these videos and people like you end up calling me a troll." He calls you a troll because you are a pathological liar.
Regarding, "That is the level of argument you guys have." That is funny coming from the dipshit whose original statement is a brazen lie and then followed it up with more lies.
Seriously... this is absolutely not hyperbole... you are a disgrace to the human race. You make everyone dumber when you open your mouth and the world would be a better place if you just shut the fuck up forever.
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@dumont7478 Regarding, "While he is busy "not giving unnecessary ammo" to the state apparatus, the regime change machine has carte blanche to continue their regime change narrative." And Bernie spending all his time, energy, and political capital focusing on them and saying the things you think he should be saying would have ZERO effect on this. You know what would actually have an effect on their "regime change machine," Sanders being POTUS.
Regarding, "And it even legitimises certain narratives." Again... the narrative < who is potus. What really matters?
Regarding, "Words matter a lot, especially from presidential candidates." While words aren't meaningless, actions > words.
Regarding, "He may personally not try to get involved in foreign military adventurism, but the cia and intelligence agencies will always be pushing regime change narratives to brain wash the populace. And that narrative has to constantly be challenged."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_om-x323Em0
Regarding, "This is why Tulsi Gabbard's foreign policy is so much better." She went to war while Sanders preached peace. Actions > words.
That and her foreign policy proposals are tainted by a blatant conflict of interest. She collects a check from the MIC this very moment. It's like if Sanders collected a check from Aetna while advocating for M4A. Their messages would both still be correct but the conflict of interest is a red flag and reason to question their convictions on said topic.
Regarding, "She challenges the phrasing of the narratives being woven." WENT. TO. WAR. PERSONALLY.
Regarding, "Don't worry i am not taking this disagreement personal." Good. It's not.
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Sir Change regarding, "Bernie is the DNC's outreach coordinator, he gets paid to promote the turd of a party." I'm not sure how you can believe this. Bernie's existence has single handedly killed the image of the party. Because of Bernie far more people are woke to the rot in the party than if he were not around. If he is their promoter he clearly needs to be fired. They lost to fucking Trump for fucks sake. But if you want to think this go ahead. I just think it is beyond fucking stupid.
Regarding, "Bernie's remarks on the BDS movement were morally reprehensible" I already said I didn't know what you were talking about. Seems to me it would have made sense to offer a tiny bit of specifics as opposed to a very general smear that is utterly meaningless without detail. Put a fucking quote up there so that I have something I can actually address.
Regarding, "The Russia baseless accusations" You seriously don't think they fuck with us? I don't even blame them really. But I think you sound foolish to think they don't.
Regarding, "w/o tangle evidence is reckless, like Iraq war reckless." Again, if we go to war with Russia... which we are not... you would have a point. Since we are not you sound silly to conflate the two. But speaking of Iraq Sanders was one of the few who spoke out passionately and accurately about why we shouldn't go to war with them on the Senate floor. If you are not aware of his words it is worth watching. And considering he voted against the Iraq war your choice of this analogy is very curious to very disingenuous. If I knew nothing and read this I would be lead to believe Sanders supported that war.
Regarding, "and avoiding to speak about the one that happened in the party he now promotes" Because of Sanders they were fucking exposed. Sanders is the reason they rigged everything. Americans fucking hate people who are perceived to be whiners even when their whining is justified. Is that the last thing you want him to accomplish... some whining that literally accomplishes fucking nothing except making you feel good. You already know they are corrupt. Everyone should know they are corrupt. And again, if they don't know it now Sanders saying it isn't likely to change anyones mind... some people are just hopeless.
Regarding, "if he doesn't challenge an election process that was rigged and is vulnerable to hacking" This is what you want? You want him to fight a battle he can't win and sacrifice his ability to win all the other battles yet to come. That is fucking stupid. I'm not sorry he isn't falling on the sword for you. He can't change all this shit by himself. Leave that to the lawyers.
Regarding, "There are no political calculations when it comes to addressing the reason we got Trump in the 1st place" It is called POLITICS for a reason. Just "addressing" shit doesn't bring out change.
Regarding, "Because the Democratic Party propped up Trump as the pied piper, colluded against Sanders, suppressed voters, limited debates, all while claiming to be impartial." Yup. You should thank Sanders for letting you know all this even if he isn't straight up telling you personally. I'm not sure how you can realize the party colluded against him and think he is their bitch at the same time.
Regarding, "Bernie owes every person who donated to his campaign an explanation for not calling out the DNC's corruption." As a person who donated to him I want him to continue the good fight for the issues I care about in the best way possible. Pissing and moaning about how obviously fucking unfair the election was ACCOMPLISHES NOTHING. Not only that but, like I've already pointed out, it diminishes his ability to accomplish things going forward.
Regarding, "what good is single payer or any progressive agenda when..." I assure you the millions of people without insurance feel differently than you about this.
Regarding, "our election process is completely untrustworthy" It is fucked up. You know how we go a long way toward solving the problem? Get a guy like Sanders as head of the party. You know how we do that? Not by bitching and smearing him. But the DNC and the establishment appreciates you doing their work for them with your shortsighted thinking.
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Sir regarding, "to use Bernie's popularity to herd the sheep back to the fold" This doesn't seem to be working. Their approval is going to shit. People like me who used to consider themselves democrat are leaving the party. I identify with the Green party far more than the "democratic" party but that doesn't mean I won't support candidates I think are worthy of my vote if they run as democrats. People are forever what is important... not party labels.
Regarding, "As a matter of fact they..." I am not, in any way, trying to or looking to defend the "democratic" party. They are a fucking dumpster fire. Ideally they would just die and be replaced with something better. But I try to be a realist. I do not think they are going anywhere anytime soon. I believe the best way for progressives to proceed is by trying to take over the party. That said we need to be working on a plan B and that includes supporting other progressive parties and not letting the "democratic" party think they can take our votes for granted. Not only that but we need other parties to try and pull the "democratic" party to the left. All of the shit you mentioned the DNC not doing was a result of Hillary "winning" the primary. If Sanders or another true progressive win in 2020 real reform might be achievable.
Regarding, "without addressing their massive failures and corruption in 2016" Does this really surprise you? It is our job to point out that their lawyers admitted in court they don't think they need to be fair. It is our job to make sure they continue to fail until they actually represent us.
Regarding, "I am honestly burnt out w politics" I understand the sentiment. They want us to quit. They want us to give up and just submit. Don't let them win without a fight. Politics is too important. It affects everything else in our lives.
Regarding, "we are suppose to lower our standards bc that's what "reasonable" people do" That is bullshit. That is just a stupid corporate media argument by people who are trying to force you pick between a douche and a turd sandwich. That is what sheep do and I refuse to be a sheep playing their game. I am going to continue to vote for good and be willing to lose. The only wasted votes are votes for terrible candidates yo don't want to win.
Regarding, "the party has done nothing to prove their legitimacy" Again I don't care about the party. That said I do care about the country and think the country desperately needs at least one decent party. I support people. I support Sanders because I believe in him. He has been around a long time and in that time he has fought for the things I care about. I'd support him if he called himself a democrat, republican, independent, green, or martian. That said I agree with him trying to work within the framework of the democratic party. Not as an insider but rather as more of a hostile takeover.
Regarding, "have done nothing to prove to voters that they will reform" They absolutely will not on their own. We must force them.
Regarding, "chooses to take political calculations regarding addressing the very problem with the party" Sadly this is the game that needs to be played. You have to pick your battles. In an ideal world Sanders could rail against the bullshit the DNC pulled. But this is far from an ideal world.
Regarding, "This is nothing to brush under the table bc he is afraid to lose support." Again I am a firm believer that the best way to proceed it by reforming the democratic party from the inside so that he can work to reform the party. Let's say Sanders runs and wins in 2020 as an independent. Then what I think happens is both major parties oppose him, nothing of substance gets done, then after he is gone everything goes back to "normal."
If Sanders attacks the DNC like you want they would be very justified in locking him out of the next primary which they are perfectly capable of doing if they want. He has to at least give the appearance of playing ball to prevent this. They literally can just pick their nominee if they so choose and hold no primaries what-so-ever (not that they would... they would at least try to give the appearance of elections... just without Bernie). That isn't why they are so corrupt. They are corrupt because in their own charter they say they are to be fair not take sides (which clearly they did). But Bernie could not have a side at all if they choose. He has to be careful to not give them an excuse to do so.
Regarding, "otherwise he will lose his job with them." Again, more importantly he would lose the opportunity to take over the company. It isn't about working with them... it is about changing them.
Regarding, "there is no evidence of hacking, None what so ever." The CIA came out and said there was hacking. Did they present a smoking gun? Hardly. Do I trust them? Not normally and not really. Still they are this nations spy agency and they said it happened. Again this is a time when you gotta pick your battles. Do you think a lot would really be accomplished if Sanders instead said, "fuck the CIA, they are lying." I don't.
Again I assume, without evidence, that Russia fucked with us. I assume they do all the time and that this wasn't new but rather same ole, same old. Regardless I do not consider this to be important at all. In a country that has lots and lots and lots of problems this is not really important to me what-so-ever. We are not going to war with them anytime soon. This is just a stupid distraction and unimportant... at least it is to me.
Regarding, "BDS." Human are inherently flawed. We all have biases. I for example admit that I am biased in favor or Sanders. I am likely to give him a pass for something where I might not for someone else. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt where I might not for someone else because I believe in him and trust him. I like to think that me knowing and acknowledging this helps me be critical of him thou at the same time.
As for Sanders I suspect he, as a Jew, is biased towards Israel. That said I have heard him say critical things of Israel as well. "There comes a time when if we pursue justice and peace, we are going to have to say that Netanyahu is not right all of the time,” for example.
Again, I didn't even know what BDS was so, as you can imagine, this is hardly an important issue to me. I care most about domestic issues. On foreign policy I am a peace loving hippie. Sanders record on war/peace has been excellent over the course of his time as a Senator. This comes from a biased guy but I'm willing to give him a pass on some rhetoric that really is not very important (I doubt I'm the only person who has no idea what BDS is), in an area where he is likely biased, and we are not going to be solving anytime soon. I just don't think his comments here are that important but again understand that this is not an important issue to me like it may be for you. And something like this is not going to be nearly enough to get me to change my view of the rest of his record which I consider to be exceptional.
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Your pathetic response is very predictable. I'm sure that if I had pictures of Trump wearing a klan costume burning a cross on someones yard you would find equally pathetic ways to defend him as well.
Regarding, "that is just practical" There is nothing practical about a wall on the southern border therefor your point is bullshit.
Regarding, "Canadians entering the United States generally are not criminals," Mexicans entering the US generally are not criminals. Therefor again your point is bullshit.
Regarding, "If a brown-skinned person commits a crime, calling him a criminal is not "racist"" But going out of your way to only enforce laws based on skin color is. What Trump is doing is akin to saying that mexicans illegally entering the country need to be dealt with while not giving a fuck when canadians illegally enter the country. That is what makes it racist.... only carrying about applying laws to specific groups of people while ignoring others.
Regarding, "If brown people are illegally entering the country, proposing a policy to deal with that problem has nothing to do with racism." It is racist when you, at the same time, demonstrate that you don't give a fuck about white people doing the same shit.
Regarding, "destroying the economy" Immigrants do not "destroy the economy." You think they do because you are stupid.
Regarding, "It's about applying standards of law." No. It isn't. Otherwise he would want a wall with Canada. It is like you are trying to prove my point for me. You don't realize you are thou because you are a fucking moron.
Regarding, "Your argument that he would build a wall at the Canadian border because of "border security" is just laughable." Holy fucking shit do you suck at life. Why would I think that Trump cares about border security? Because that is what he fucking says out of his orange mouth to try and justify a southern wall you fucking mental midget.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/04/trump-border-security-action-500172
I'm done with this. You go ahead and think he isn't a racist for all I care. You can't fix stupid and trying to use logic and reason with people like you is as effective as using logic and reason with my dog.... except my dog is far smarter than you.
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Regarding, "Comments like this are precisely why it's impossible to have a conversation with you people." Comments like yours are precisely why it's impossible to have a conversation with "you people." You are devoid of logic and reason. The arguments you make are all dumb as fuck.
Regarding, "Not everyone who disagrees with you is stupid." You might be brilliant in other aspects of your life but when it comes to this conversation you are clearly a fucking moron.
Regarding, "It is very obviously false." Even Trump knows this isn't false. That is why he brags that he could shoot someone and that his mindless sheep would still support him.
Regarding, "I actually don't literally support..." This isn't about you dipshit. This is about Trump.
Regarding, "no not all Mexicans are criminals." Thanks for stating the obvious after implying they were.
Regarding, "But there is a HUGE immigration problem from the southern border where there obviously isn't on the north." I welcome you to try and prove this bullshit claim when the fact of the matter is that currently there is a net ZERO immigration rate with mexico. This means that for every person from there here entering illegally one is leaving the country.
Regarding, "They enter the country illegally" You claim to care about this but ignore the fact that people enter the country illegal through the northern border.
Regarding, "exponentially more than there are from Canada." Prove your bullshit as if this is more important to the conversation that it is. The fact of the matter is that you shouldn't be caring about this if what you actually care about is people breaking the law. Do you not worry about prosecuting serial killers because they really don't kill that many people?
Regarding, "If there is ever evidence of Trump telling police officers to only arrest criminals if there skin is brown" What he is doing is akin to that. He is telling police officers to care about brown illegal immigration and not giving a fuck about white illegal immigration. You just don't admit these obvious cold hard facts to yourself because people like you can rationalize anything.
Regarding, "I know someone..." I didn't even read this. I don't give a shit about your anecdotes.
Regarding, "Skin color has nothing to do with it. If you break a country's laws you get in trouble. Period." Do you hear yourself? Do you really believe the stupid shit you are saying? Who do you think is more likely to get in trouble? The people being targeted or the people being ignored?
Regarding, "ask local black people" You watch too much fox news I'm betting. Forgive me for glossing over why everything you are saying here is dumb as fuck.
Regarding, " it is about applying the same standard of law to everyone, everywhere." It obviously is not to Trump otherwise he would want a wall on the northern border. But you keep thinking shit. I know you will. And you wonder why I don't want to waste my time talking to you and don't take you seriously.
Regarding, "If there is no illegal immigration problem on the Canadian border" Of course. It's only about "illegal immigration" even thou there is just as much rhetoric about border security. Oh, and again, there is a NET ZERO illegal immigration rate with Mexico currently.
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/
Regarding, " If there is no illegal immigration problem on the Canadian border" So now that you know there is no illegal immigration problem with Mexico?????? Nothing changes... of course.
Regarding, "Your politico link proves or reinforces nothing of what you've told me." That is because you are fucking stupid. Do you really need me to give you direct quotes where Trump specifically talks about the need for "border security?" Because they are not hard to find.
Regarding, "Your last paragraph just further goes to show how impossible it is to converse with people like you." I don't give a shit. I know nothing I say is going to get through to you so I don't try to convince you. I only do this as catharsis because sharing the world with people like you pretty fucking frustrating.
Regarding, "Did you truly think you were going to convince me of your point of view by insulting me and calling me names?" Nope. I know that if you are so fucking dense that you don't realize Trump is a racist by now nothing I can say is going to change that. And the fact that you don't already know the answer to your own stupid fucking question only helps prove my point that you are an idiot.
Regarding, "You are "done with this" after calling me stupid several times, likening me to a dog, then plugging your ears with your fingers like a brat." I want to be. I really do. I know this is fucking pointless and that you are a lost cause but concede that I have a tough time letting stupid go unanswered and with you there is so. much. stupid.
Regarding, "Unfortunately very little progress can be made when so many people in the world argue like this." You go ahead and focus on how I say things instead of what I'm saying. That is the low hanging fruit. You are correct. I should be nice if I were actually trying to convince you but I know that that is a wasted effort. But that doesn't change the fact that Trump is a racist and I've given you a perfectly good reason why.
Regarding, "OH MY GOD, YOU ARE STUPID." I guess I could cry like a bitch about this like you would but I'm not a hypocrite. The bottom line is that I really don't give a flying fuck what you think about me or anything because I think so little of your opinion. I'm not joking when I say my dog is smarter than you but don't feel so bad about it.... my dog is really smart for a dog.
Regarding, "I guess that means I have sound arguments." I have sound arguments because I have sound arguments. That has nothing to do with me being a dick. I am a dick. You don't understand that this has nothing to do with my arguments because you are fucking stupid.
Regarding, "Another brilliant rebuttal. I'm convinced!" Don't kid yourself dipshit. I could write a novel of brilliant insights. I could cite everything. I could take the time to be nice and show you respect that I don't actually feel for you and it makes no fucking difference to someone like you. At the end of the day you are going to be stupid no matter what I or anyone says. Good luck with that. Again I'm going to try and quit this. I really want to. I should. But this is how I'm stupid in my own way. I waste time on hopeless causes like you.
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@keithmcgaffie9963 Your analogy is terrible. It's like you have no understanding of what the words proportionate and disproportionate mean and how they affect statistics and the concepts you are trying to use and dismiss.
Let me try to explain this with a hypothetical situation and random numbers pulled from my butt. There are 4 people, three are white, one is black. One white has 100 bucks. The other 3 (2 whites and one black) have 10 bucks each. Clearly the whites have more and the income inequality gap is large because of the one white guy with lots more than the others. Let's say we then gave the 3 at the bottom 20 bucks each. Has the income inequality gap gone up or down between the races? The correct answer is that it's gone down even thou TWICE as much money went to whites than did to blacks in this hypothetical. It hasn't solved the income inequality gap but it has reduced it because of how proportionate the problem was to begin with and it disproportionately affected blacks.
Now go again and reread everything I've talked about. Understand that, again, all of the problems I've mentioned DISPROPORTIONATELY affect blacks. They stand the most to gain based on proportions if these problems are solved even if they don't eliminated the income inequality gap entirely. This is not debatable because math.
Regarding, "So if the bottom of the stats get the same treatment as the top nothing actually ever changes." We aren't treating the top and the bottom the same with the policies I've mentioned. The guy with 100 doesn't get more, if anything they actually stand to LOSE money in the form of taxes to pay for the money going to the people who are on the bottom. The rich already have health care, education, a living wage, and don't have to worry about going to jail for drug possession while the poor don't have those things. If we give those things to the poor we make a better, more fair world even if we don't succeed in making it perfect.
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@keithmcgaffie9963 Regarding, "ok let me hit you with the fact of that analogy black farmers took three types of major loses these last few years of trump." This has NOTHING to do with the point I'm trying to make. Is there any chance you would be willing to address what I am talking about instead of deflecting to other things?
Trump is fucking terrible and a clown. He is making things worse. I'm talking about ways to make things better.
Regarding, "Three trump did a farmers bailout but guess who didn’t benefit black farmers." I honestly have no idea what you are talking about specifically but I can confidently say it has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about.
Regarding, "It’s like if I had three guns and you had one knife when weapons are handed out. Now the next time the weapons get handed out evenly as let says knives now I would have three guns and one knife while you would have two knives who’s have the better chances to hunt for food me or you. Before and after." It's not like that. Again your analogy is terrible. How about we lose them? How about you address the specific solutions I've offered instead because analogies are not your thing. In your analogy everyone is getting something. In the specifics I've mentioned only the bottom are getting something and the top are ones paying for it, ie losing something.
Regarding, "because your example is exactly how barrack made more white millionaires then the norm" Obama was fucking terrible. He represented big money and corporate interests and again, has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about. The ACA was a blowjob to the rich and powerful while giving the peasants crumbs. Universal health care on the other hand would destroy a wealth consolidation machine know as the private health care industry who disproportionately helps rich whites. It would disproportionately help blacks who currently go without health insurance more than whites. This system is paid for by more whites.
Regarding, "the next go around new president hands everything out let say to ten then the white guy is going to be at 50" Which makes no sense because the rich already have the things I'm talking about. I don't know how to make this anymore clear. I've said it before but I guess I'll repeat it. The rich have health insurance, education, a living wage, and without fear of drug possession. They stand to gain NOTHING. They are the ones PAYING for the benefits the poor would be getting.
Regarding, "immigrants" Man do you really, really, really have some misplaced anger towards immigrants. They are not your problem. The rich and powerful, the corporations and the oligarchy are.
Regarding, "But wait here is the other flaws in that now the black guy have to pay taxes as well for immigrants to have healthcare" 1) you don't seem to understand who is to pay for these proposals 2) we ALREADY don't just let immigrants die when they get sick 3) all blacks would have health insurance who disproportionately go without it. Stop acting like their lives wouldn't be improved because of it. They obviously would. Universal systems are cheaper. Canada pays HALF as much per person for their universal system.
You know what, I can't debate this anymore. You can't stay on topic at all and address the specific points I'm making and it's hard to try and address you while you are all over the place instead. Peace.
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Max regarding, "The same Bernie Sanders who stayed silent while obvious election fraud took place," Here is something I don't think you understand about Sanders. He wants to talk about policy. Always. That is his thing. I don't think he would talk about anything else if he could. I'm sorry he is not doing exactly what you want to do but even you should realize there isn't jack fucking shit he could do about it. That is what lawyers are for. Sanders saying anything about this is only perceived as whining and I don't know if you know much about Americans but they fucking hate anyone who is being perceived as being a whiner even if their whining is justified. Even Hillary Clinton supporters had an impossible time justifying her whining in her latest book.
The only thing that he could have done is say something but what would that have really accomplished? It would have made you feel all rosy inside. It may have woken a handful of people but be real... if they are not woke to it already they are not likely to be woke anytime soon. And what would it have cost? A fucking shit ton. Again Americans don't like whiners and he would have lost support especially when the entire establishment comes gunning for him on that. He loses his ability to address what he really cares about... POLICY.
Again you are totally fucking inconsistent with your thinking. On one hand he is a co opted and on the other hand the system is being rigged against him. If he is just one of them then why the fuck do they rig it against him. It makes no fucking sense.
Regarding, "and later endorsed the perpetrator of the crime" Again you are talking about a fucking endorsement and acting like it is his soul. I very much disagreed with Sanders at the time but I understood why he did what he did. He sided with the lesser of two evils. He fulfilled his promise to endorse the democratic nominee that he made when he entered the race. HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE BLAMED FOR TRUMP WINNING! And can you really blame him for that? Not only is he a terrible human being like Clinton but Trump is also straight up OFFENSIVE. I sure as fuck wouldn't want to be blamed for him winning. Fuck he endorsed her and they STILL blame him. Imagine how much easier it would have been had he not endorsed her. And because he did Hillary and the corporate dems only embarrass themselves and make themselves look bad when they try to blame him.
Regarding, "he publicly dismissed the idea that the primaries were rigged" Again you bitch about things that, even if he did them, WOULD CHANGE FUCKING NOTHING. Well nothing other than making you cum and hurting his chances at doing the things he wants to do to help the people of this country.
Regarding, "The same Bernie who formed a covert "non-aggression pact" with Hillary prior to the primaries." Do you have any idea who Sanders is? You say this shit like it is unthinkable and out of character of him. Sanders is all about policy. Sanders desperately wants to win elections on ideas, not by attacking his opponents. Some people, like me, really like that about him. If you want someone who will say or do anything to win then I would think you would love Hillary. It's not like her signing that meant anything.
Regarding, "The same Bernie who urged voters not to vote third party in the general." You know he endorsed Hillary because you cry about it constantly so why is this really so fucking surprising and offensive. How fucking stupid would be if he said, "vote for Hillary Clinton! Or third parties, whatever." Would that make any fucking sense what-so-ever? Obviously not so stop acting silly.
Regarding, "The same Bernie who shunned Jill Stein's repeated attempts at collaboration, or at the very least, open discussion." I'm sorry he doesn't live his life exactly how you wish. He isn't perfect. He doesn't walk on water. But the decisions he has made have rightfully made him the most popular politician in the country. The decisions he has made have put him in the best position possible to bring about the progressive change this country rightfully deserves. I voted for Jill Stein but Sanders didn't owe her jack fucking shit if he didn't want to.
Regarding, "The same Bernie who ignored Tim Canova's campaign against DWS, who then lost as a result." I wish Sanders would have done more. I honestly don't know for sure why he didn't. Maybe he was just tired as fuck after running an incredibly long campaign of his own. But blaming him for Canova losing is fucking idiotic. You sound like a Hillary supporter blaming Bernie for her loss.
Regarding, "The same Bernie who is now actively perpetuating the "Russian's hacked the election" lie." Who says it is a lie? You? The CIA, this nation's spy agency, says they did. Do I believe them? Not exactly. But accusing the CIA of lying is opening an entirely new can of worms that Bernie is wise to avoid. Again doing something like doesn't change jack fucking shit other than making you feel good and hurting Sanders chances of affecting policy.
I would like to add that, although I am skeptical of the CIAs reports, I ABSOLUTELY believe the Russians meddled in our elections. I assume they did before any reports just like I assume the US meddles in everyone else's elections without any reports. If you think they don't fuck with us at all then I think you are being a fool.
Regarding, "The same Bernie who went on tour with Tom Perez to encourage more people to vote democrat." You mean that tour that allowed Sanders to get his message out including talking about medicare for all for example? That tour that only made corporate dems look bad? Yeah, that is something to cry about (that is sarcasm in case you can't tell).
Regarding, "The same Bernie who's wife said on live TV that the media had treated them fairly during the primaries." Yeah, if only Bernie's wife had broken down and cried about how unfairly they had been treated everything would have been different. Again that is sarcasm in case you can't tell. Stop acting so fucking foolish. Try to focus on getting change where you can get it instead of focusing on the battles that are best left not fought. I don't need Sanders and his wife to tell me they got fucked over to know it. Do you? Do you think the people that like to claim it was fair are going to suddenly change their because Sanders wife says so? Of course not. Stop acting like it would change anything.
Regarding, "The same Bernie who also refused to be "drafted" into a new third party." I agree with him. Let's say Sanders did and won the presidency (even thou he would need a majority of electoral votes and not just the most, even thou he would risk splitting left leaning voters), let's say he did. Do you think he would be able to accomplish much? Of course not. He would be opposed by both major parties and then after he is gone they go back to business as usual and nothing changes.
Let's say Sanders runs and wins as a democrat. He could unilaterally enact party reforms such as banning them from accepting their legalized bribes and others. Then all of a sudden we might have a major party that is incentivized to care about their voters instead of their big money donors. Oh and congressional democrats would be more willing to help him make the changes this country so desperately deserves.
If you care about getting vengeance on the party more than you care about getting things done for the country so be it but you are being shortsighted.
Regarding, "if you think voting Democrat = fighting" I vote for good people. People who believe in the policies I do and have a plan to get them done and I honestly don't give a flying fuck about their party label. Only sheep think labels are so fucking important. Democrats, Republicans and you all think way too much about that label.
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@nelsonaddison Regarding, "You're letting your emotions overrule your reason." No. I'm not. You are being unreasonable.
Regarding, "Whether you like it or not, Elizabeth Warren is a power house." Whether you like it or not, Trump is a powerhouse. That isn't an innately logical reason for Sanders to want to run with him anymore than it's a logical reason to run with Warren.
Regarding, "She is an incredible campaigner and debater." You can by how she took 3rd in her own fucking state.
Regarding, "The question you have to ask yourself is; which team do you want her on, because she is going to join a team." She is ALREADY ON A TEAM YOU FUCKING MORON.
Regarding, "I would much rather have her campaigning for Bernie than for Joe Biden." I would much rather have judas eating at our table than others jesus. That's what you sound like.
Regarding, "you have no reason to hate me." I am so fucking exhausted of feeling like I'm living in the movie Idiocracy except that if I were actually living in that movie I'd have a better president than I do now and could get a handjob at starbucks.
You are suppose to be on the smart team for fucks sake but you can't even tell who is on your team and who isn't.
Regarding, "I'm just a guy expressing a valid viewpoint." You are spouting nonsense whether or not you realize it.
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@theamericanjoeshow Regarding, "Why is it that our EC system is only messed up when a Republican wins?" It's not. It was fucked up from the moment the founders made it. I feel this way as a matter of principle. Don't think I have any love of Hillary or the "democratic" party. I don't. (I am a staunch Sanders supporter.)
Regarding, "You never hear about it being messed up when a Democrat wins." Those dems are also winning the popular vote. I'd happily say the exact same things and be equally outraged at the process if a republican won the popular vote and lost the EC but that hasn't happened although there have been times when I thought it might have been a possibility going into an election.
Regarding, "Could I make the argument that if we "Fixed" the EC system that a Republican would never win the presidency." You can argue that it would make it harder for them to win a national election because it would. But it isn't about helping or hurting a political party even thou I despise the republican party. It's about fairness and about what is right and should be. I'd argue the same things if it hurt dems chances.
Regarding, "And in your mind that would be "fixing" the EC system?" Dump it. Popular vote wins. I don't care who you are, where you live, what party you identify with if even one at all. Your vote, as an American, counts equally as much as every other American. It's not hard to imagine. This is the same process we use for every other election. We don't have ECs at the state level when voting for governor or senator to make some votes far more valuable than others. And that is what the EC does at the national level.
For example if you live in California, a state large enough to be a sizable independent nation, have MEANINGLESS votes for president. Seriously... if you live in California you can confidently stay home knowing that your vote for president doesn't matter. If I were running for president I would have ZERO reason to try and win their votes because the EC makes them not matter. And the same people who argue that the EC is necessary because without it only a handful of people's (those people in cities) votes would matter, ignore the fact that this is exactly the same thing the EC does. Because the EC makes only swing states important. Those are now the handful of states that control our elections.
Politicians should be trying to win any and every vote because any and every vote matters the same. It's not a perfect system but that simply is as good as it gets. Taking that and making some votes more valuable than others (which is exactly what the EC does) is not fair and not right, regardless of who it may or may not help.
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@theamericanjoeshow Regarding, "Thank you for putting so much thought into the message you sent to me." I feel super strongly about the EC. This isn't the first time I've been making these points to people.
Regarding, "(just cause a swing state is a swing state, that can change from year to year)" True. Even the example I gave of Cal can be a swing state in the Reagan, excuse me, right election. But the point remains... we shouldn't be controlled by whoever the swing states are at the time. We are all American and we all should be having our equal say in who our president is. And we candidate should be trying to win literally everyone and not be given reasons to ignore large percentages of the population.
I'm old... like really old and I vote. 2016 was literally the very first time in my entire life that I was living in a swing state at the time of the presidential election and got to have a vote that actually mattered. Fun fact I used it for Jill Stein. But it was my choice to arguably have made it meaningless (it wasn't meaningless but that argument can be made). That's not right. But don't think that my position is based only from personal experience. From the time I learned about the EC I was like... wow... that's really dumb.
Regarding, "isn't your idea just making the votes of people in big cities more valuable?" No. They are not. If you live in the city your vote counts EXACTLY as much as a person living in the country.
Regarding, "What I mean is your solution is merely changing the importance from one group of people to another." It's not about this. Really. It's about fairness. Popular vote is as fair as it gets. I don't care what group of people you identify as. I don't care where you live. Those things don't matter. On election day we are all americans and americans all get to have our equal say when voting for our president. Or at least that's how it should be. That's how it is when you vote for governor and senator. There it doesn't matter if you live in the city or the woods and it shouldn't. You all just get your vote because you are all from the same state.
There are all sorts of other ways that our government tries to ensure everyone gets to have their voices heard. California has the same number of senators as Wyoming.
Regarding, "It's a fascinating topic and our founding fathers actually did mention that if we choose a president through popular vote that we would suffer the same fate as ancient Rome." Don't get me wrong I know there are quotes out there along these lines but the fact of the matter is that the EC had everything to do with slavery. It was a compromise between the north and the south and their 3/5ths people. We very well might see the same fate as Rome and think we are on that path already. If we crumple like Rome it will not be because we decided to let the popular vote win.
Regarding, "Do me a favor and check out what our founding fathers said about the topic." I promise you I already have.
Regarding, "And to be fare, is there something you'd like me to research?" I'll include an article but, in all honesty, I'm not that concerned about what the founding fathers (who didn't let women vote among lots of other really questionable things) thought back then. I'm most interested in addressing the world today and what I think is fair today. The best thing about the constitution is that it allows itself to be changed because despite the founding fathers flaws they at least knew they weren't perfect.
Regarding, "And to be fare, is there something you'd like me to research?" Not really. But you should vote Sanders.
And sorry about any typos. This is pretty long and I'm too lazy to go back and proofread like I should.
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Randy regarding, "she’s a real hardass in-session which has always been something I love about her" I don't dislike this about her but I see it as being theater. I'd be more impressed if she got better results and had more of a message that criminals breaking the law need to go to jail but I don't see that from her.
Regarding, "there are instances in her voting record that are contrary to her progressive stance" Like, for example, when she voted for the 700 billion per year department of offense budget. I was baffled by this. Not just because I think there are few clearer examples of votes that progressives should be a clear no, but because her vote was fucking meaningless. I fully expected her to vote no just because of the obvious optics of voting yes. I mean she didn't even think it was a good idea to pretend she was progressive on such an important vote.
Regarding, "I think her rationale behind it is that she wants to be able to work with republicans" If that is her rationale then I question her intelligence. There is zero evidence to think that Republicans can be worked with on anything that benefits the country.
Regarding, "it’s extremely difficult for her to get any legislation passed." Her signature accomplishment was the consumer protection bureau and this was done when dems could do anything they wanted. And in the wake of a possible economic collapse this was the best they could do. Not break up the big banks, not bring back glass steagal, not put at a single crooked banker in jail, this. And as much as it is a good thing it is a pretty fucking pathetic excuse for legislation compared to what the country deserved and needed at the time. It was just enough so that they could say they were doing something.
Warren is better than most but that isn't saying much when you consider who she is being compared to. I do not trust her and do not consider her to be what I think is a true progressive.
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Regarding, "I've only been a Democrat for over 30 years" What you are trying to do here is the equivalent of Trump saying "believe me" before saying a bunch of stupid shit. And being a democrat after how they have demonstrated they hate democracy only reflects poorly upon you.
Regarding, "I get that you Bernie people love pushing this narrative that he was "cheated" out of the nomination but he wasn't." I get how you Hillary supporters and establishment fucks love to push the narrative that the elections were fair but it wasn't. Either you are fucking stupid for suggesting it is or you are being paid to regurgitate bullshit. Either way you suck at life.
Regarding, "the superdelegates have always..." The favorite argument of people trying to justify injustice throughout all of history. It has always been that way there for it is fair. Sorry but the fact that something has been has nothing to do with whether or not it is fair and only intellectually dishonest people think so.
Regarding, "In fact, the media generally went out of their way" Um no. They did not. And the media is specifically told (with a wink and a nod) by the DNC to not cover superdelegates AT ALL til the convention. Still they do it, still the DNC doesn't call them on it, and still the DNC doesn't require superdelegates to not disclose who they are supporting til the convention because THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT.
Regarding, "Clinton finished 2016 with 55% of all votes cast in Democratic primaries to Sanders' 43%." Yup. And if we had free and fair elections you would really have a great point here. But the fact of the matter is that we do not have free and fair elections therefor your "point" is FUCKING MEANINGLESS.
Regarding, "As far as California, Sanders could've won every vote in the primary - 100% - and he still would've wound up short of Clinton's delegate total" That is absolutely not true. You are a fucking liar or, at the very best, incompetent at math. Well, that isn't true. Actually I think you are a fucking liar and incompetent at math.
Regarding, "anyone with basic math skills" Says the guy who has demonstrated they lack basic math skills.
Regarding, "Sanders knew the rules of the Democratic Party's nomination process when he ran for president" Yes he did. That is not the same as it being fair. And that ignores the fact that the "democratic" party broke their own fucking rules. "the Chairperson shall exercise impartiality and evenhandedness as between the Presidential candidates and campaigns. The Chairperson shall be responsible for ensuring that the national officers and staff of the Democratic National Committee maintain impartiality and evenhandedness during the Democratic Party Presidential nominating process." Seeing as how that never happened everything you are saying is fucking garbage.
Regarding, "special treatment" You think I want special treatment? I don't. I want free and fair elections and the DNC made sure I didn't get it from the start of the process to the finish. They considered Hillary Clinton to be their presumptive nominee in March 2015 according to internal memos and worked to make it happen to the detriment of Bernie Sanders.
Regarding, "are short on facts and long on conspiracy theories." That is pretty fucking funny coming from you considering the facts are not on your side. Why was Debbie Wasserman Shutlz fired from the DNC? And who replaced her? You are correct that there was a conspiracy but it was proven to be more than a theory thanks in part to wikileaks.
Regarding, "All it takes is a little research" All it takes is a little research to realize the game was rigged from start to finish. The fact that you don't realize it either makes you an idiot or paid shill working to "correct the record," but either way you suck.
Regarding, "Now go educate yourself about how elections work and stop the fucking whining." Actually I'm whining because I am educated to how elections work in our country.
http://observer.com/2016/07/wikileaks-proves-primary-was-rigged-dnc-undermined-democracy/
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Wow. Just wow. So. Much. Stupid.
Regarding, "You might want to check our intelligence agencies which have asserted that this is exactly what happened." I am quite aware that they have asserted that this is exactly what happened. But I didn't ask for assertions. I asked for proof and you have provided NONE. Those same agencies asserted that Iraq had WMD as well. So. Fucking. Funny. I provide proof and you call me a conspiracy theorist. I ask for proof and you provide none while claiming you hold the high ground. I think I get dumber talking to you.
Regarding, "ample evidence" Holy shit am I talking to Donna Brazile? Is there ample evidence. Ample evidence. Ample evidence. But there is ZERO evidence. You can provide nothing other than the word of people who there is ample evidence to believe are full of shit. And if you are Donna Brazile I would just like to say that you can go fuck yourself even more than if you are just some random dipshit.
Regarding, "one conspiracy has been proven while the so-called "rigging" of the campaign in favor of Sanders has not." I really have no idea why I am wasting my time talking to you at this point. You cannot possibly believe the bullshit you say do you? Again, you have proven nothing. Just saying there is ample evidence is not the same as providing evidence. And if the DNC did not rig things then why was Debbie Wasserman Shultz force to resign? And then the person who replaced her, you, Donna Brazile fed Hillary Clinton debate questions. When the DNC was taken to court their lawyers DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO CLAIM THEY DIDN'T RIG IT. Instead they argued in court that it was their RIGHT TO RIG IT and that the party had no responsibility to be fair. You are a fucking joke but not funny.
Regarding, "And what other party was I going to vote for that wouldn't help Donald Trump in 2016?" I would like to again point out that the candidate you voted for, Hillary Clinton, intentionally elevated Donald Trump. SHE LITERALLY HELPED DONALD TRUMP IN 2016 to try and make herself look good in comparison. And now you want to sit here and talk about how Trump has you pissing yourself so bad you had to vote for the candidate that helped make him the nominee. You are exactly why she did it because she knew that you are such an easy to manipulate sheep that you are happy to vote for evil... just as long as you can think it is the lesser evil. You would have been happy to vote for Trump were he the "democratic" nominee (it is not that hard to imagine, he was a self described democrat not long ago) as long as your bitch ass thought the republican were worse.
Regarding, "Our military..." Our military was already spending as much as the next 7 countries in the world combined but morons like you think they need more because you are epic stupid and happy to support the military industrialized complex. You clearly are pissing yourself about how terrible Trump is but you think giving him more money for bombs makes sense because you are retarded.
Regarding, "so do all the "I won't vote for the lesser of two evils" perfectionist" Only a mental midget like you thinks that not voting for evil is requiring perfection.
Regarding, "And no, you aren't smart -- not in the least bit." Of course you think this because you are a fucking moron. I would hate for you to think I am smart because you have managed to get literally everything wrong.
Regarding, "I don't want people like you trying to influence MY Democratic Party because..." Let me finish this for you. Because you are FUCKING STUPID. I was a lifelong democrat. I voted for Obama twice. You really should care what I think because the bottom line is that if you actually care about winning elections you need people like me to win. But clearly you are not going to get my vote anytime soon so enjoy Trump in 2020. At least I don't get to influence your party and you get to keep your superdelegates. I hope it was worth it.
Regarding, "Women, gays, minorities, religions that aren't Christian -- they all are under attack by the current administration and you need to own up to playing a part in that. My conscience is guilt free." Of course your conscience is guilt free. You voted for Hillary Clinton. The wars she has supported have ended womens lives all across the globe. She opposed gay rights as recently as 2013 til it became politically convenient to flip-flop. She worked to address the "superpredetor" problem by working to lock up a disproportionate amount of minorities. The wars she supported were all in countries with religions that aren't Christian. But your conscience is guilt free because you are a dipshit who voted for a candidate that has worked her entire life against the people you just claimed to care about.
Regarding, "you seemingly need to invent conspiracies" You say this as if you offered a rebuttal to the points I made. The fact of the matter is that you didn't say shit. You just act like saying it is BS over and over that is like proving it is BS. It isn't. Too bad you aren't smart enough to realize the difference.
Regarding, "go fuck yourself for being so easily manipulated and so ignorant of politics" No. You need to go fuck yourself. All you have done is spout bullshit. You literally make everyone you talk to dumber when you talk. You are a disgrace to the human race and you should be ashamed of yourself. It is sad you are not but I'm not sure why I expect more. You can't even do simple math for fucks sake. You probably think 2+2=5.
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Regarding, "A kid in his twenties, that's who." You can't even accidentally say something that is true. I mean you think that considering with how much you say you would occasionally get something right but you don't. I only wish I were in my 20s because that happened a long, long time ago.
Regarding, "no better than the know-nothing Trump voters." Says the guy who would have voted for Trump if he were the "democratic" nominee. Try not lie to yourself about it. Deep down you know it is true.
Regarding, "There's your evidence." Wow. Really compelling. You have an anonymous source and absolutely nothing concrete to point at. Just an article that boils down to "trust us" when I have good reason to be skeptic. But I'm the conspiracy theorist. That makes sense to small minds like you.
https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/
Regarding, "Point me in the direction of voter fraud investigations that have been launched against people who changed votes or tampered with voting machines against Sanders because that's what rigging is." Still you can't say something that is accurate. You don't even possess the knowledge of what words in the English language mean. What you are talking about is election fraud. Those are the words intelligent people use to describe what you are talking about. I think you realize this and are just lying to make your case. Then again it might be that you are just too fucking stupid to know what the words you are using mean. Either way you suck at life.
This is what rigging actually means, "to manipulate or control usually by deceptive or dishonest means." To rig an election.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rig
As for an example of the DNC manipulating or controlling the primary through deceptive or dishonest means here are a couple.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/wikileaks-emails-show-dnc-favored-hillary-clinton-over_us_57930be0e4b0e002a3134b05
And there are plenty other examples of proof of them putting their foot on the scale that doesn't just amount to hearsay like you think is proof.
Regarding, "I didn't want an independent socialist to be my candidate for the Democratic Party's nomination" I hate to point out nuance to you because you are clearly incapable of the type of thinking that is required to understand it but he is a democratic socialist. And you don't have to want Bernie or treat him fair but it also isn't as if you have a charter and your own rules that say you are going to be fair. Do you understand the difference? It really isn't that hard to comprehend and I think that even a moron like you is capable of telling the difference.
Regarding, "the Democratic party isn't socialist either." Weren't they the party that brought about social security. You do realize that was socialism right?
And if the DNC weren't interested in giving Bernie a fair shot they had the right to tell him to fuck off at the start. But they didn't and as soon as they let him run they had a responsibility to be fair and impartial while conducting their primary that uses everyone's tax dollars. But they were not, they rigged it, and all the evidence backs it up. Federal Judge William Zloch, "the DNC and Wasserman Schultz held a palpable bias in favor Clinton and sought to propel her ahead of her Democratic opponent." Um, yeah. No shit. Everyone with a functioning brain knows it.
Regarding, "Goodbye and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. And stay the fuck out while you're at it." Hillary said essentially the same thing last election. Good plan. But you fucks don't share any of the blame for Trump. Too fucking funny. It's kind of my fault for thinking you are capable of saying anything smart. I mean you can't even do simple math or operate a calculator correctly for fucks sake.
Don't be afraid to fuck off. I'm tired of listening to all the stupid things you say and fear this discussion is making me dumber.
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@zevkurtzman8108 Regarding, "your first point is not gonna convince me just by telling me im wrong. That doesnt convince me im wrong, it just tells me that you disagree with me, and displays the type of hubris ive seen from bernie supporters that kind of erks people." I'm sorry for not being willing to give you every detail of every thing going in my head. Yang's health care isn't what it should be, he doesn't support raising the minimum wage but ultimately all that is mute because he hasn't earned any trust from me. I don't just take politicians at their word and that's literally all yang has... words.
Regarding, " i acknowledge the strategic voting point, and struggle with it." So let's not act like I'm just using corporate media propaganda. I voted for Jill Stein in 2016 IN A SWING STATE so I'm obviously not running with their BS.
Regarding, "But that doesnt mean i cant support a different candidate to try to give him a chance before voting starts." Splitting the vote is real. There is a reason Biden didn't run in 2016 and it had nothing do with his kid. It would have been a game changer. Don't pretend that yang's campaign operates in a vacuum. It changes things. And those changes help the establishment whether or not your realize it or want to acknowledge it. Progressives don't get to share votes or delegates in an election that we desperately need to win.
Regarding, "he understands economics in a lot of ways" Does he. I know he claims to as that's his argument to deserve the job but the problem with politicians isn't that they don't know any better or some shit like yang claims... they are bought.
Regarding, "I dont mean any of this in malice, just honesty." Be honest... what's the biggest problem with politicians? It's that they are liars who sell their soul. Bernie is not that. And you know as much over decades of him being in the public eye. You have know about yang for what? A year? And UBI? A year? Maybe address all the problems that should have been being addressed for decades (like raising the minimum wage that yang is against) by a guy who you know with certainty is legit, before looking to a guy you just met who only has words. It must be nice for him. When Biden says he's the "most progressive" I get to look and point at his record to know he is full of shit. It must be nice for yang to not have that. That way he can say literally anything like so many politicians do but we don't have a way to check if he is legit or full of shit.
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@DiverDan1000-3 Regarding, "what you are proposing is a calculation you want Tulsi to make." Yes. I want candidates to think of their causes before themselves. Is that a problem or controversial somehow?
Regarding, "Since the DNC and the media has smeared/dismissed her as much as they can, what do you think the chances of these networks would bring her on anymore?" Huh? I think her chances of booking spots on corporate news would be unaffected if she were going on as a candidate they are trying to ignore just as much as her chances would be as Sanders surrogate. She might even have a better chance. Not that this is nearly as important as her effects of splitting the progressive vote in an incredibly close election where every vote and point matters.
Regarding, "The only channel inviting her is Fox." I don't understand how this is being used to try and justify her campaign.
Regarding, "Remember, Tulsi had a real cushy position in the DNC as co-chair...but resigned amidst pressure to support HRC." Probably one of the most endearing things she has ever done to me.
Regarding, "She has a rare combination of courage, integrity and empathy." I think you are right. I question her judgement at times thou. For example you shouldn't need to go to war to realize how terrible war is. And you shouldn't have trouble understanding how important it is that progressives stand together in this moment if we are going to win. She isn't doing this... not like she did in 2016 and should be doing again. It's a problem for me and it makes me question her judgement even though I do think her heart is in the right place.
Regarding, "how would you feel about a Sanders/Gabbard ticket?" I jokingly say I'd vote for Sanders/Satan because I'd for Sanders and anyone he would run with. Far too much is made of the bottom half of tickets. I would have felt far better about it before she announced her candidacy. I would have felt far better about it had she never run. I feel worse about it with every passing state in the primary.
I think Sanders, should he win the primary which is the war that is easily the hardest part of becoming president, should pick someone who is currently supporting him and has his back right now to be his running mate. Someone like Nina Turner.
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@DiverDan1000-3 Regarding, "I like Nina Turner." Good. You should. I mention her because if the unthinkable were to happen to Bernie I think she would be an excellent commander in chief mostly because she demonstrates good judgement and good values.
Regarding, "she has so little experience compared to Tulsi Gabbard." I do value experience but it is hardly the only thing I value. I also question what you seem to consider to be the correct kind of experience.
Regarding, "House Committee on Financial Services
, Subcommittee on National Security, International Development, and Monetary Policy
Subcommittee on Diversity and Inclusion
House Committee on Armed Services
Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Capabilities
, Subcommittee on Readiness." I'll bet without knowing for certain that there isn't a single person on any of these committees other than tulsi you would suggest should be Bernie's running mate... because your idea of what the right experience is isn't what it should be. Furthermore you act like giving peace a chance is something you need to be in a committee to realize. It takes will, principles, and convictions to stand up to the MIC... not committee experience.
Regarding, "Nina doesn't have that kind of experience/insight." First hand experience to come to obvious conclusions doesn't indicate actual good judgement. Warmonger john McCain opposed torture, because he was tortured. Demon dick cheney supports gay rights, because he has a gay kid. Tulsi opposes war, because she went to war. Ultimately people with actual good judgement don't require personal experience to come to correct decisions.
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New regarding, "I refuse to plunge to your level of name calling." I don't care. If you want to call me names you go right ahead. I'm not a snowflake that needs to be coddled.
Regarding, "I’ve always found people that have to go that low are usually lacking in something." I've always found that people who focus on how something is said rather than what is being said do so because they are not good at talking about the what. It's easier to get mad at me for calling you stupid rather than accepting the cold hard fact that what you said was fucking stupid and never should have been said.
Regarding, "you basically stated that because people on the left listen to her she has to be called out." Yes basically. Bravo for addressing what I actually said rather than completely misrepresenting and distorting what I said into things are completely idiotic and have nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.
Regarding, "That would be fine if she had made an incorrect statement and was not Twitting about her own opinion." So stupid opinion's shouldn't be called out? I disagree with your opinion. Your opinion is stupid.
Regarding, "when did Joy Reid ever say she was representing people on the “Left”?" Who cares about what liar Joy would say about who she represents. The fact of the matter is that majority of the people who listen to her would identify themselves as being on the left rather than the right regardless of what she or you might say or what she or you think of as "left" or "right."
Regarding, "And just because people are stating they’re on the “Left” doesn’t mean they are progressives." No shit sherlock. That is precisely why I put left in quotes. Also this is completely irrelevant to the point I was making.
Regarding, "Just like people on the right are not necessarily conservative." Again totally irrelevant to my point. Don't be afraid to stay on topic.
Regarding, "Doel’s whole point in this segment..." Are you talking to Doel or are you talking to me? You asked a specific question of "Why not go after Sean Hannity or Bill O’Reily?" And I answered it. I was not talking about the entire segment and am not interested in getting into that with you. You have enough fucking trouble with one specific point for fucks sake.
Regarding, "If people on the “Left” don’t like her opinions then don’t watch or listen to her, plain and simple." Do you really believe the stupid things you say? Do you think about the shit you say? Is this a principled position of yours that you hold regardless of specifics or is this just hypocritical bullshit? When the KKK uses their freedom of speech to march and spread their bullshit do you say about them, "if you don't like their opinions then just don't watch and listen to them, plain and simple." Is that really what you think and say? Or do you understand the obvious need to call out and correct bullshit like an intelligent human being? I think that it is fucking hilarious that in your first idiotic response to me you thought I hated the 1st amendment. I fucking love it. Not because of what stupid people do with it but because of how important it is to be able to tell stupid people why they are stupid. Because not watching and not listening is not enough. People need to be called out when what they are saying is making the world dumber.
Regarding, "she needs to be called out for not having the same viewpoint as him." Yup. Some viewpoints are not be respected. Some viewpoints need to be called out. Some viewpoints are detrimental to society you need to be saying why. Again would you be crying like a bitch if this were about the KKK and not Joy? And I guess I better be clear because you like to conflate, confuse, and distort what I'm saying and better add that I am not, in any way, shape or form, equating the KKK and Joy. They are not the same in the grand scheme of things. The point I'm making is that they are the same in that stupid needs to be called out even if their particular case of stupid is very different.
Regarding, "And I was referring to the fact that it is Orwellian to not want or ridicule people if their ideology is different than yours." You are an idiot. You know what would be "Orwellian?" Not allowing the expression of other ideologies. That is not the case here. There is a world of difference between calling shit out not allowing it in the first place. There is nothing Orwellian about me calling you stupid. You get to keep on saying stupid things all you want. And when you do I am going to keep calling you stupid for saying stupid things because stupid things need to be corrected. You don't get to just go around and make the world dumber with everything you say and think I don't get to call you out for it. I do and I will.
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@whatmeworry8472 Regarding, "the defense vote is a weak and indefensible argument" LOL. Nope. What is indefensible is voting for that budget. You are quickly becoming really tough to take seriously.
Regarding, "If you look on any candidate from Bernie to Gabbard to Warren you will find ALL OF THEM costed for the defense budget of a certain year in the last 5 years." What? All budgets are not created equal. I'm talking about a specific vote that was indefensible. You seem to allude to something Sanders did that was indefensible so how about some specifics like I've given you. What budget in the last 5 years did Sanders vote for that was indefensible are you talking about?
Regarding, "absurd talking point?" Correct the record is that you?
Regarding, "I can point on Bernie weak voting in some defense votes as well as for any other candidates." Tell you what, I'll throw you a bone. Bernie isn't perfect. I've disagreed with him about things and votes. It happens when you have a voting record as long as his. But he and warren voted differently on this very specific bill. One represents me and the other doesn't. Just because Sanders isn't perfect doesn't mean excuse what warren did. This is whataboutism 101 and it's not ok.
Regarding, "If you are intellectually honest you either give them all a pass or none." If you were intellectually honest you would be ok making distinctions. If you want to be intellectually dishonest you can paint it all with a huge brush like you are doing without bothering to use nuance when nuance is a good thing.
Regarding, "Warren is no better or worse on that." She voted for an indefensible bill that Sanders voted against. Of course that makes her worse. As I type this I can't help but be mad that I've wasted so much time addressing you.
Regarding, "Warren,Yang, Bernie, Tulsi and 5-6 other candidates are for universal healthcare. Saying otherwise is false." May as well include Donald Trump then for fucks sake cause he said he wanted to give everyone health care. Are you including pete? Who supports "medicare for all who want it?" Even though we already had words for what he wants, "a public option" while claiming that medicare for all isn't popular while simultaneously trying to coopt the term because it is popular?
Regarding, "You can’t write Warren is not for universal healthcare with no basis" Wow. I'm so done with you at this point. Her waffling is well document and has been talked about plenty if you cared to listen. Just because I haven't gone balls deep into telling you info that you should already know doesn't mean I have no basis. Here are a couple videos because I've already wasted far too much time talking to you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuhuAZFrRFI&t=38s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS5C4sryhK0
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John regarding, "If you were..." There are going to be winners and losers with every law. I can't think of a single law that everyone is going to agree on or that would be good for everyone. And I'm not trying to ask about you or your family personally. I'm asking as a net plus or minus. On the whole. When everything and everyone is considered. Was the country better with it or without it? I think, although it sucked and should have been something very different, it was a net gain and the country was better off with it than we were without it.
Regarding, "I ask again, what happens when we lose the number one job in the United States?" We will be forced to adapt. Hopefully there will be other jobs in other industries to replace the ones lost.
Regarding, "Will they pick up insurance without an income?" It is pretty difficult for anyone to do much of anything without an income. But it is not as if this is being made worse by the ACA even if it isn't helping. I'd love for there to be single payer and for health care to be considered a right but that isn't going to be happening at the moment when you look at who controls the government.
Regarding, "fraud and duplicitous." I like to call it a blowjob to the private, fuck in the ass, look for any reason to not give you health care if our CEOs can make more money to buy a bigger yacht health insurance industry. But it, pathetically, was an improvement upon what we had before it in my opinion.
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John regarding, "I answered yes for some no for others and you agree." Kinda. Yes for some and no for others is accurate for every bill. I ultimately decide that, on the whole, after everything is considered, we are better with it than without it. (even thou it sucks)
Regarding, "Your second paragraph saying you hope they will find other jobs is naïve at best." I'm not claiming to have all the answers especially on such a difficult question. Society has found a way to adapt throughout history. Jobs and industries die off and are replaced by new ones generally but future automation could change things in ways I can't even imagine. I would like for everyone who wants to work to be able to find a job but again, I'm not going to pretend I have a good answer for you. I don't.
Regarding, "You will see a steady decline in the number of people with health insurance as we continue to destroy jobs." I can't imagine single payer not happening in the future to help address this problem but it just isn't going to happen this second.
Regarding, "Bilderberg Group" Had never heard of them. Looking at it on wiki now. Fascinating in a Dr. Evil kinda way.
Regarding, "it gives the false illusion that more will have insurance in the future, they will not." I think there is a great argument to be made that the country would be better without it because it would speed up a single payer system but hasn't been the discussion I've been trying to have and consider this line of reasoning separate.
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@scrumblybumbles6513 Regarding, "your logic isn't hard to follow" Thanks for conceding your comprehension problems.
Regarding, "you already said in another comment that a Biden Presidency would be better for the next 4 years" Marginally so. But at a great cost.
Regarding, "so your opinions on Biden's policies really don't matter to this conversation" Um. What? If you say so I guess. Let's see where this is going. I don't tend to read everything. More often I try to address substantive points when they are given. Got any of those in this novel?
Regarding, "Your comment didn't really address my main point (that Bernie and his policies became popular due to people being fed up with a corporate dem)" Yeah. It wasn't a very good point that oversimplifies the topic. People like things like health care, and peace and legal weed because they are good ideas... not because corporate dems are bad. These are progressive ideas that get popular in spite of corporate dems who do everything they can to stop the real progress this country needs.
Regarding, "I can infer 2 possible answers from it:" You are making this harder than it is. Good ideas become popular because they are good ideas. Don't overthink it too much.
Regarding, "please say why you believe Bernie and his policies became popular directly after Obama" First I'll try to answer why progressive policies are becoming more popular even in the era of trump. It's simple... they are good ideas that are seeing the light of day more. Support for M4A is inevitable because it's a good idea. Because we get more evidence of it every day. Because we can look at our neighbors to the north and see that they pay half as much per person for their system. And that system covers everyone. And medical bankruptcy isn't a thing. And their infant mortality rate is superior. And their life expectancy is longer.
It's inevitable that it's going to gain popularity despite all the propaganda trying to tell you it's the devil. There is too much anecdotal evidence pilling up. Everyone knows someone fucked over by our health care system.
It's an idea that is going get more popular going forward because it's a good idea. All the how are you going to pay for it bs and the like don't change it. People have the internet now. Knowledge is power.
As for why is bernie popular I'll again try to keep it simple. He has been consistently on the right side of all the major issues, even when that side of the issue wasn't the popular one. The patriot act, the iraq war, gay rights, and more. Bernie LEAD. He's been the same guy since the beginning of time. With the same values, championing the same issues. If people on the right know he is nothing but genuine. That isn't common in politics.
Regarding, "A lot of things can't wait until 2024 dude." Is that the unimportant election when I get to vote my values? But not this time? This time I have to vote for shit? Because reasons?
I don't care who you or anyone thinks is worse. I don't support evil. Neither should you. Obviously.
Regarding, "I honestly have doubts about how fair and free the election in 2024 would be if Trump was reelected." Why would you wait to have worries about free and fair elections til then? If you care about free and fair elections maybe look at your inhouse problems in the "democratic" party. Fun fact: who "won" the Iowa Caucus according to the "democratic" party. Pete Buttigieg because free and fair am I right?
Regarding, "voting 3rd party is absolutely meaningless in the U.S." But voting for corrupt POS oligarchs who are everything that is wrong with our government is very meaningful right?
Regarding, "can you chill with all this moral grandstanding dude?" What you call moral grandstanding is actually understandable outrage at the state of affairs. I doubt it's going to subside anytime soon.
Regarding, "I thought Bernie or busters got all pissy about voter-shaming." I don't speak for all bernie or busters. I speak for me. If you vote for garbage I think you should be ashamed of it. And I'm tired of having nothing but garbage representation. Maybe if people felt ashamed of voting for garbage like they should we wouldn't be in this mess.
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@scrumblybumbles6513 Regarding, "Bernie's policies woulda gotten popular anyway" In a very simplistic way.
Regarding, "it was just a coincidence they gained huge popularity right after Obama" What? M4A and universal health care has been gaining in popularity consistently for quite some time. It was popular when the dems had a supermajority and gave us republican health care. It's just that those dems are really just republicans in disguise doing everything they can to preserve the terrible system.
People knew the system was a disaster back then. But lots of people were dupes who thought the dems had their best interests at heart. But they had corporate interests at heart.
And sanders gets a lot of credit. He used his platform to champion M4A. It helps. Biden uses his platform to demonize M4A.
Regarding, "(if you have it your way)" LMFAO. I'm not a trump supporter dipshit. But don't let that stop you from being an ass strawmanning what I say.
If we had it my way nobody in the entire country would vote for either trump or biden. If we had it my way people would vote for good instead of rationalizing supporting voting for evil.
Regarding, "I just can't justify not voting against that." There are ways to vote against that that don't also include voting for a warmonger who has never found a war they didn't want to fight. Trump is an orange clown and psycho and I trust him more than I do biden on foreign policy because trump has never started a new war (despite his efforts to the contrary). Do you ever think that too is something you should be voting against as well? Perpetual war and war with everyone? While you vote for exactly that and Biden?
I'm just kidding. You justify that. Orange man bad is all that matters.
Regarding, "There's no way you actually believe that the DNC is as fucked on voter rights as the RNC." There you go again caring about who is worse between a douche and a turd. You are just deflecting about the rot in your own party. You claim to care about free and fair elections but when I point to indisputable evidence of shenanigans on your team then all that matter is the that you think the other guys are worse. It's pathetic. Don't claim to care about free and fair elections then just ignore it when your team does it just like team trump does when their team is called out.
Regarding, "Republicans are doing everything they can to exploit coronavirus" Pelosi doesn't want to give the people help because it might give trump a political win. Not that you care.
Regarding, "you're an actual moron if you don't think there's a substantive difference between voting for a viable candidate and an unviable one." Did I say there wasn't a difference? I'd always prefer to vote for a viable candidate if I can. But I don't vote for evil. That's what you do.
Regarding, "Can I ask," Sure.
Regarding, "why do you suck Bernie's dick so hard" You mean why do I respect the guy who is the only reason the 2016 and 2020 "democratic" primaries even needed to be rigged? Well I also appreciate his continued advocacy for M4A. I probably didn't do his contribution to the cause the justice it deserved when trying to explain it's growth in popularity.
Regarding, "he says you should vote Biden you suddenly disagree with him?" LOL. I guess this might be very surprising if you are sheep but shouldn't be. I love Bernie but I don't care about his endorsements very much. I decide who I vote for. Bernie is good. He isn't perfect. And he is wrong about voting for biden. Don't overthink this and make it stupid the way you like to do.
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@scrumblybumbles6513 Regarding, "If the best ideas naturally become implemented" The best ideas do not naturally become implemented and I never said they have.
Regarding, "why is Trump the President?" It's complicated. And seeing as how you started this with yet another strawman argument I don't really feel like getting into it ATM.
Regarding, "the most effective way to vote against Trump is to vote for a viable candidate in opposition with him." Whatever you got to tell yourself to rationalize supporting a POS I guess. The most effective way to vote against trump is to recreate the exact same circumstances that helped lead to trump the first place. Ok bud.
Regarding, "With 3rd party voting you're just throwing your vote away" The only wasted votes are votes for terrible candidates who don't deserve your vote and don't deserve to win. Spoiler alert. You are just throwing your vote away. As are all trump supporters. You are all sheep supporting clowns for terrible reasons.
Regarding, "it's not doing anything to oppose him." I oppose evil. I guess my priorities than just more than orange man bad and for good reason.
Regarding, "You dumbfuck, I know you're not a Trump supporter," Still you act like my ideal world is one where trump wins. And that makes me the dumbfuck?
Regarding, "you did say that Trump was better for the future and that if you were doing lesser of 2 evil voting you would vote Trump." I also say time and again that it doesn't matter who is the "lesser" evil. And that all I really care about is the fact that it's evil right?
Regarding, "if 2 options are bad it isn't wrong to point out that 1 is obviously less bad." It only becomes wrong when you support what is bad. And that is what you do time and again right? Is this where you want to spend your energy? Mindlessly weighing which evils are worse than others so that you can go out and support the lesser evils of this world?
Would you rather vote for a murder or a pedophile? As if this should matter in the least? As if such a question is of any value whatsoever? Which is less bad? Since we are wasting brainpower on stupid questions whose answers shouldn't be of importance. Ultimately you shouldn't care who is worse. Neither should be considered. But why not? May as well pick a side since you care about who is worse all the time.
Regarding, "I'm totally happy voting Biden" I'm really tired of feeling like I'm living in the movie Idiocracy all the time.
Regarding, "Holy shit, you are so intellectually dead." I'm not going to lie this is pretty funny coming from the same person who just said, "I'm totally happy voting Biden."
Regarding, "Pelosi wanted to give MORE than the Republicans" So the lesser evil shit is only for elections huh? So we get nothing thanks to pelosi instead of what republicans put on the table. This is where you have principles and standards. When the bread crumbs are actually on the table? LMFAO What a hack you and pelosi both are.
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@scrumblybumbles6513 Regarding, "I'm not reading another giant wall of text from you." While I am long winded I use paragraphs. That means it isn't a wall of text.
Regarding, "My point wasn't a strawman" Ultimately when you say things like, "If the best ideas naturally become implemented..." It's because that's what the other person is claiming. But if you just an idiot on a tangent that would make sense as well I suppose. I actually think the exact opposite. I think the best ideas do not naturally become implemented. So your question is nonsensical and has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
Regarding, "throughout this discussion you have said that Bernie's policies have become more popular" Which is not saying that the best ideas naturally become implemented. Do I really need to explain in detail why?
Regarding, "Trump is President (in large part) because when corporatism fails people turn to populism" If you want to insist I really don't care. This is an over-simplification of an incredibly complex topic.
Regarding, "you might not know what the word 'wasted' means." What is wrong with me that I'm addressing you? LMFAO. I must be wasted.
Regarding, "Even fucking Trump supporters aren't wasting their vote because they may actually impact the election." They can be impacting the election and be wasting their vote at the same time. You don't realize this because you are about as smart as them.
Regarding, "3rd party voters will affect nothing." I live in a swing state. I matter far more than I should because of the EC.
Regarding, "it is wasted, you are accomplishing nothing" If I'm accomplishing nothing it's only because the corrupt "democratic" party don't care about winning as much as they should. But hey... at least they have John Kasichs vote.
Regarding, "you are 100% wasting your vote." What a useful idiot for the establishment you are.
Regarding, "I've named 5 places where Biden is markedly better than Trump" I don't care. I can name places where trump is better than biden and have (foreign policy). That doesn't mean it's a logical argument to support the orange clown because ultimately they are evil and terrible.
Regarding, "all of these issues will get worse/lead to worse outcomes if left to Trump for another 4 years." The country is going to persist for longer than 4 years and I don't support trump.
Regarding, "it's not the difference between douche and a turd, one is obviously better" So just because one is better than the other that means that they can't be a douche and a turd? So because a murder and a pedophile are not equally terrible in the same ways they can't be a douche and turd either? Or maybe you are spouting nonsense?
Regarding, "Yeah dude, obviously Republicans would have leveraged that into giving less for Covid support in the future." LMFAO I can't believe I ever responded to any of your trash at all.
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@Protectobot regarding, "How do you think Bernie will be able to avoid having the primary rigged against him again?" I don't. I know it will be rigged against him. I know the establishment is going to do anything and everything to stop him. I know the corporate media will smear him. I know the game isn't fair. I have no illusions of fair fight. But you seem to think that all you need to do to for a fair game is run 3rd party. It isn't. Sadly there is no magical way to make the game fair overnight.
As for how I think Bernie can overcome the rigging and why I think he can and will overcome it in 2020 I think I've already done that to a certain degree. I've already told you ways the game has changed from 2016 to 2020.
Regarding, "There were no repercussions." Maybe not directly there should have been but again... things HAVE changed. Thanks to Sanders campaign in 2016 and wikileaks americans are far more "woke" to the corruption in 2020 then they were in 2016 and their shenanigans are going to be harder for them to pull. We should hopefully have a reduced number of superdelegates. I know you want more. So do I. But to get it we need to win and that isn't happening as a 3rd party. The 2 major parties have successfully rigged the game from top to bottom against them.
Regarding, "DWS" and "Tom Perez" Yeah... these people suck and should not be in positions of power in the party. You know how they get outed and we get progressive chair who doesn't suck? Sanders wins as a dem. Sanders winning 3rd party does nothing to address these people. Remember when progressives were purged from the party? Well corporate dems can be purged the exact same way but to do it we have to win.
Regarding, "What's the point of Bernie endorsing Hillary?" 1) Sanders agreed to support the nominee when entering the race and he does what he says. 2) Sanders said over and over and over and over how terrible he thought Trump was. How he would do anything and everything he could to stop Trump. This would be an example of that. 3) If Sanders hadn't endorsed her he would have been effectively blamed for her loss. Don't get me wrong many, including Hillary, tried to blame her. But those attacks didn't stick because of what Sander did. And it was crazy important that Hillary be blamed for her loss and not Sanders. If Sanders were effectively blamed then DNC would have had a perfect excuse for their loss and a perfect excuse to stay the same.
Regarding, "Do you really think the Dem party can be reformed, and if so, how long will that take?" Yes I do and the key is getting the nominee of the party. They pick the chair of the party who pick the people under them who pick the people under them and so on. The party nominee is giving crazy power to practically unilaterally reform the party. This is an example of the type of power they have.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91226631
To be fair they went back on this specifically to benefit Hillary in her run but it gives you an idea of the type of power the nominee has. The reason the "democratic" party is certain to remain a dumpster fire until at least 2020 is because Hillary "won" the nomination.
If it's possible to reform the party it would certainly take far less time then building a 3rd party in our system (which I consider to be impossible at the moment).
Regarding, "How much time does this planet have before climate change destroys the human race?" I don't know. Some days I hope it won't happen for a long time. Some days not so much.
Regarding, "superdelegates" I feel like they are overblown a bit. Don't get me wrong they suck. Don't get me wrong they are their to tip the scales. But they aren't really there for the reason some like to think they are. They are not there to overthrow the will of the voters. They are there to "frame" the election. There are there so that, for example, when Sanders and Hillary were neck and neck early in 2016 the corporate media could put up numbers including the superdelegates to make it look like Hillary was crushing him and the inevitable winner. They are not there to overthrow the will of the voters. I fucking dare them to give the nomination to the person with less pledged delegates. I'm of the belief that the "democratic" party isn't going anywhere anytime soon but that would change overnight if tried to pull that shit. The establishment is corrupt but they are not stupid and that would be stupid of them. Let them do it. It wouldn't be ideal but if leads to a destruction of the party then it would hardly be a total loss.
Sorry if that was long. And sorry if repeated myself. I feel like a talking point machine at times because I just try to address points.
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@carlosatreides5653 Regarding, "My "gotcha" question will never be answered on Youtube." I literally just answered your question but don't let that stop you from taking the concepts out of context.
Regarding, "Let's not be arrogant." Why? I am arrogant. But at least I'm not going to tell you that you are going to burn for eternity in hellfire if you don't buy my book of bullshit.
Regarding, "I'm assuming by your comments of my "fake" deity and my " cult" that you are probably a liberal." I self describe myself as a progressive.
Regarding, "Most of whom have no understanding of politics, economic or religion and is a real cult." Is this your idea of not being arrogant? But I love a good... "I know you are but what am I," I just haven't heard one since grade school.
Regarding, "if he believes that the universe is eternal like our creator then he is trying to disprove it. That's quite clear." You are a moron. He isn't trying to disprove god anymore then he is trying to "disprove leprechauns." If your fragile worldview can't handle the possibility that maybe, just maybe, you believe a book of bullshit written thousands of years ago when people thought sickness were actually demons that's your problem.
Regarding, "It is an attempt to push the idea morality is subjective so reason your way to pedophilia as the greeks and romans and "know" there is no God just like the communists." This is seriously some of the dumbest shit I have ever read. You are exactly the type of moron that religion needs. Forgive me for not addressing this bullshit more intelligently... or don't. I honestly don't give a fuck what you think at this point.
Regarding, "Well done for doing no outside research." Jesus christ are you stupid. Seriously. I am so fucking tired of you cultists.
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@carlosatreides5653 Regarding, "I never said anyone would burn in hellfire." No shit sherlock. But are you really not a bible thumper? Because that is that particular book of bullshit's position.
Regarding, "You are definitely a narrow sighted person." Aren't the same fucking moron who just got done saying, "Most of whom have no understanding of politics, economic or religion and is a real cult."
Regarding, "Which explains your progressive leanings." Um.. yup... obviously. How can you really not realize what a hypocrite you are?
Regarding, "You are the one throwing around ad hominems." But you haven't? You have zero self awareness don't you?
Regarding, "You use foul language which displays your ignorance of vocabulary." Words are merely a tool we use to express an idea there simply is no better way for me to express my frustration you fucking dipshits in your cult then by using the words I do.
Regarding, "Obviously you do care what I think or you wouldn't have left a 2nd comment." LMFAO. I guess maybe I should have used the word respect. I do care what you fucking dipshits think because you fucking morons are busy keeping the world from progress because of a book of fairy tale from thousands of years ago and your cult has you brainwashed.
Regarding, "Finally, using the name of the deity you don't like, for whatever reason, in order to cast derision on someone." Jesus Christ. I would need to think they exist for me "not like them." I "don't like" Jesus the same way I "don't like" Zeus.
Regarding, "You haven't explained the problem of consciousness by the way," The "problem of consciousness?" There is no "problem of consciousness" unless you are referring to the fact that you arguably are not conscience. And yeah... that really is a problem. The world would be better if you were.
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@LBizKid04 regarding, "Give me one specific claim, with a valid primary source." Forgive me for being lazy as I just don't care enough about this conversation to be specific but the fact of the matter is that, "The gods have lived on earth in the likeness of men," was a common saying among ancient pagans for a reason. That reason being they thought gods were fucking humans.
Regarding, "Why is it hard to believe that certain rules are for specific times?" We are talking about moral law and not the rules of baseball right? Is this how you rationalize the bible's position on slavery? It was a different time?
Regarding, "Have you done the research to check it out," I honestly don't give a flying fuck about the mixed clothes shit and have done zero research into that specific topic. I prefer to stick with what I think are big issues... issues like the bible on slavery, or the god of the bible being a mass murderer. When it comes to the "little shit" which the mixed clothes things is, I prefer the bible's take on shellfish because I find if funny that the bible cares more about making sure people didn't eat shellfish then it cares about making clear that slavery is abhorrent and wrong like a legit holy book would.
Regarding, "Wow, the slavery thing again." Yup. That slavery thing again. It never goes away and I'll never let it go as long as your book of bullshit continues to say what it does on slavery.
Regarding, "are you asserting the slavery in the Bible is the same as, say, slavery that happened in America?" Not "the same" but the differences between the two is a pathetic rationalization to try and justify your book of bullshit's take on slavery. There is no context where saying, "you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you" is ok like it does in the bible and I want to think you would have no trouble agreeing with this if it were not for your cult.
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Regarding, "The answer isn’t voting, because that has failed." The game has changed. More of the country than every is woke to the rot in the "democratic" party thanks to Sanders, wikileaks and others. Is it fair? Nope. And it isn't going to be until winning. And we can beat a rigged game but we need to stand together.
Regarding, "The real answer is voting for a third party." I'd like to believe this but I don't. Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton were not just 2 of the most despised politicians in the country, they were 2 of the most despised humans in the country. Still Jill Stein only got about 1 percent. So forgive me but I wholeheartedly disagree. Don't get me wrong I encourage you to build 3rd parties and support good 3rd party candidates but the best way to get the change we deserve is by taking over the "democratic" party hostile takeover style. One of the reasons why the party is going to suck until at least 2020 is because Hillary "won" the nomination. That is why there is Tom Perez who got to pick the people under him who picked the people under him. Things can change but to do it we need to win. And it isn't going to be easy. The game is rigged. The establishment has lots of dirty tricks but I think 2020 gives us the best opportunity at a getting a progressive since... since a long time.
Regarding, "Parties have come and gone" Not really. And the major parties have rigged the entire system. Do you think it is fair for 3rd parties? I assure you it isn't. You are just trading in one rigged game for a different rigged game.
Regarding, "it’s time for a new party that actual represent the people" I agree that we need a party that represents the people. I agree that neither major party does. But some, like myself, think the best way to get a party that actually represents the people is by taking over the "democratic" party and we could use your help. Your original statement is not only not helping but hurting that cause. You make no effort to differentiate between corporate dems and progressive dems.
Regarding, "Maybe don’t judge me" Look man... I judge everyone. Not just you. And so do you. Try not to pretend otherwise.
Regarding, "open your mind to agreeing a third party is necessary." There already are lots and lots of 3rd parties. They already exist. I wish the game were fair for them. I want ranked choice ballots. I want open debates. I encourage you to build these parties and work to make the game more fair. But this isn't exactly about that.
Regarding, "agree to give a third party more thought" I happily voted for Jill Stein in 2016 and would do so again today if the same election were today... in a SWING STATE. So it isn't like I don't give them thought. It's just that winning is important. It isn't everything but it is really really important. That is how we actually get what we want... by winning. The easiest (not to be mistaken with easy) way for progressives to win (ESPECIALLY at the national level) is by running as a dem because, like it or not, the game is rigged in favor of major parties.
I absolutely will support 3rd party candidates but I think they are rightfully plan B. Plan A is hostile takeover. But we need help. Vote in the primary. Fight to make the "democratic" party better. Fight for a progressive nominee. And if they succeed in getting a corporate shill like Biden, Harris, or Booker then I will be right beside you voting for a 3rd party candidate. But please don't, like your original post suggests, not even try to get a progressive nominee of the dem party.
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Regarding, "more literal than it’s intention." I don't know how else to take it. Not only do you say it but you repeat it... You say, "I personally won’t be voting for any democrats in the future," and "I agree with a hostile take over." I concede you saying both these things in the same paragraph makes no sense to me. To me if you "agree with a hostile takeover" then you would logically say things like, " I personally will only be voting for progressive democrats in the future and corporate dems can fuck off." But I guess that is just me.
Regarding, "I just think that party is far past the point of hostile take over." The key to a successful hostile takeover is getting a progressive nominee. The nominee determines the chair. The chair picks the people under them. Corporate dems can be purged the same way progressives were purged. The nominee is given CRAZY power to set rules and determine the direction of the party almost unilaterally.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91226631
Is the type of thing the nominee can do on their own. To be fair this reform was repealed to benefit Hillary Clinton when she was running. But the point is that this shit can be done and more but to do so we need to win.
Political parties care first and foremost about the people that fund their elections. Make the democratic party raise money from the people and then all of a sudden they are incentivized to care about the people and not their big money donors and corporate overloads like now.
Regarding, "Maybe some individual people in the party are worth the vote," I think Justice Democrats in particular have a pretty good idea. My trust in a politician is directly correlated to how they raise their money and JDs do it right.
That said, I preach the importance of individuals. Good democrats, even if they are not as many as we would like, deserve your support. Your original statement says they won't get it.
Regarding, "expect my opinion of not giving my vote to corrupt people." You are right to not vote for corrupt people. You are wrong to assume 100 percent of dems are corrupt. You need to look beyond a party label and look closer at individuals. Or don't. But realize that is essentially the same as people who blindly support democrats without bothering to examine the individual more closely.
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@CMfuell Regarding, "she still could not be bothered." Because you assume she need think the same way about this as you.
Regarding, "she cared enough about the optics she needed to claim she did in fact vote against it," In your opinion. The average joe doesn't care about this vote the way you do. The average joe just wanted to government to do something during a crisis. Opposing the one thing of substance they were doing, even if terribly flawed, is questionable politically in world where you know corporate dems are looking for anything and everything to attack her with.
Regarding, "when it doesn't even matter" Does it not matter or does it matter a lot? You need to pick a lane and stick to it rather than going for whatever you think supports your argument the best in the moment.
Regarding, "I'm not sure why your sitting here making excuses for why she voted for horrible bills" You have one example. She isn't perfect but she is one of the best we have. If you can't support her then who can you support?
Regarding, "why she won't call out her own leadership when they fail the voters," I think Nancy Pelosi is a straight up demon. But if I worked with her I probably wouldn't go out of my way to point it out all the time like you seem to think would be reasonable.
Regarding, "I stopped caring about the individual in politics a few years back and now look solely at the record and policies." You are looking at a single vote and acting like it represents her record at large. You are acting like there were circumstances that made the vote you question questionable. We were in the midst of a pandemic. People wanted shit done even if you didn't.
Regarding, "Otherwise you end up defending the undefendable" If I'm defending it it really isn't "undefendable." She still isn't taking dirty money. She still is doing far more to move the overton window to the left than you could ever dream of. She saved her state from giving billions of dollars to the richest man in world. That stuff should be talked about as part of her record too. But you ignore it and call her "undefendable."
People aren't perfect. Don't act like it's reasonable to think they should be. Joe Biden is a terrible person. Attack him, not imperfect decent people like AOC.
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strong regarding, "Bernie chose to break his promise to us that he would not concede until the convention." Sander fought and campaigned while all the peasants got to vote. Isn't that what we are suppose to care about? Aren't we the side that cares about the people voting and not the superdelegates and party insiders? He "lost." No the game wasn't fair but ultimately Hillary had more pledged delegates than he did. He can't lobby for superdelegates before the convention and then credibly call for them going away.
Regarding, "not addressing the election fraud, the purging of registered Dems, & now the unending stream of shady dealings that are revealed everyday, has left him looking very compromised." I don't need Bernie Sanders to tell me that he got fucked over because I know he did. And the people that still claim the primary was fair are not all of a sudden going to see the light and suddenly realize how fucking unfair things are if Bernie comes out and cries about the rigged process.
Americans fucking hate whiners even when their whining is justified. One of the reasons he is currently the most popular politician in the country is because he got fucked over and still acted like the class act he is. Him crying about how unfair the process is would have CHANGED NOTHING, and at great cost. Sanders is smarter than that.
Regarding, "He's not as believable as he was last year, as it's hard to comprehend his silence on the increasing dirt being exposed that is/was done by Dems." He is the least important person to bitch about him being fucked over. There is no one that is in a more biased position than him because it was him getting fucked over. Hillary as well with her whining. Even Hillary supporters had an impossible time justifying their fallen queens actions on her blame everyone but herself book tour.
The politicians are the wrong people to be talking about how the process affects them. That is for us to talk about. They are OUR votes after all.
Regarding, "Being associated with Dems will be poison" The party fucking sucks but if I were a gambling man, and I am, I would be willing to be the house that the democratic nominee wins the presidency in 2020. That means that what is important is who that nominee is. It needs to be a progressive like Sanders and not a corporate stooge like Harris, Booker, or Biden.
Regarding, "going Green" I identify as with the Green party far more than any other party. But winning is important even if it isn't everything. And Jill Stein got about 1 percent in 2016 therefor I think this is a terrible plan.
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@n0wheregrrl Regarding, "If only you knew how astonishingly like a Hillbot you sound." Really? I voted for Jill Stein in the general in 2016 IN A SWING STATE and you think I sound like a Hillbot? If you think that you seriously need to think deeper about the things I'm saying because that's asinine and lazy thinking. Let me see if I can help you with that.
First let's talk about motive. I'm trying to get a progressive in the WH. That's where I'm coming from. Does that sound like a Hillbot to you? It's not even about a specific progressive (at least not originally)... it's about getting A progressive there. That's my focus and that's my goal. That's where everything I'm saying originates from.
Don't get me wrong, it does become about a specific progressive for logical reasons I've only started to touch upon, but I haven't even begun to go balls deep about the reasons why I think Sanders is the guy and Tulsi isn't because that's not the point I was really trying to make. I was originally just trying to talk about the legit dangers and pitfalls of splitting the progressive vote because it's a real thing that we as progressives need to acknowledge, take seriously, and not pretend doesn't exist. We don't get to just pass off our pledged delegates to one another, at least not on the first ballot, the one we really need to win, so let's not act like we can shall we?
Another aspect of politics that is absolutely real and we must consider and be aware of is momentum. It's important. There is a reason the corporate media tried to paint hillary as inevitable from day one and is doing so again with biden... because they know momentum is important, real, and they were trying to use it and manipulate it.
In 2016 Hillary Clinton won the first primary, Iowa with 49.8 to Sanders 49.6. That 0.2 difference is so much more important than the single delegate lost (or whatever the exact number may be) because of how it allowed the corporate media to frame the election going forward. In the week until the second primary every article written all got to read "Hillary Clinton WINS! It's already over. May as well not vote." as opposed to "Sanders squeaks out win, Hillary Clinton still leads all delegates (because we are going to wrongly include superdelegates in the total) by a mile." It impacted literally every other primary in ways that had nothing to do with a handful of voters difference. It was 0.2, in a tiny fucking state. But it fucking matters and affects everything that follows it.
So if you correctly agree with me that that 0.2 is important then what about Tulsi's decision to run? Because she certainly is going to be taking that many voters from Sanders and then some and then some and then some and then some and then some... from him. If she weren't running what would you be doing? Supporting Sanders. These candidates don't operate in a vacuum. They affect the people around them. And my issue on this has far less to do with you and your decision, but it's pretty much my biggest problem with Tulsi at the moment. I think it demonstrates bad terrible judgement.
Nina Turner is a progressive I love. I can't think of anything bad to say about her. I think she would be a great president. But if she decided to run against Sanders in 2020 I'd be pissed about it for the reasons I'm pissed at Tulsi and Warren.
I trashed the shit out of Warren for her decision to run (and more but that's another story). Those arguments and my objections to her running didn't just go away when someone I like SIGNIFICANTLY more like Tulsi was making the exact same mistake in my opinion.
Regarding, "We must all unite" Yeah. I am saying this. And I'm not just saying it I'm telling you why it's obviously a good idea. Do you want to win? Do you want a progressive in the WH like I do? Because unity is how we get there. I've said it before but it's worth repeating... we know the game isn't fair already. We really shouldn't be handicapping ourselves like this. We should unite. If you think that makes me a hillbot and you can't tell why my logical arguments are different than the shit they do/did... well whatever. That's very hillbot of you because it's really dumb.
Regarding, "We must all unite behind [pre-selected candidate]" We can debate about who that candidate should be even thou I think the answer to that is obvious but it's honestly not about that. It's about the fact that unity gives us the best chance to win. And we really need to win. This country needs us to win.
Regarding, "no trying to delve up the distant past" Tulsi is so fucking young there honestly is no "distant past" in regards to her unless we go back to her high school days. I brought up the Iraq war, so distant we are still there, and gay rights because she worked with people (not her personally as far as I know to be clear but that doesn't make this fact ok to me) involved in conversion therapy. A particularly offensive and repulsive practice.
And I love the "distant past." I love calling Hillary a "goldwater girl." I'm of the belief that people don't really change and that when they show you who they are we should believe them. I love Sanders in part because of his "distant past." It demonstrates that he is a man of principle and convictions.
Regarding, "while ignoring the present" I guess I'm ignoring the present good deeds of Sanders forcing Amazon to raise their minimum wage, the fact that medicare for all is supported by a majority of REPUBLICANS because of him, and more because, again, it really isn't about him to me. I'm only glossing over their differences because you keep insisting on going there and I try to address direct points.
Or, were you just referring to, "calling out the Venezuela situation for what it was when Bernie was still parroting right-wing neoliberal talking points about it." Like this was some great point that I was ignoring. You are talking about rhetoric, nothing more. Or do you have fear that Sanders is going to go invade Venezuela or some shit? Because that would be a big deal (a wrong conclusion, but it would be a big deal). Or how exactly do you think they would substantively be different when it came to action as commander in chief in regards to Venezuela? Because while words aren't unimportant, actions are what really matters and I have no good reason to think their actions would be significantly different here. Both would stay the fuck out of Venezuela. That's hardly a good reason to think Tulsi is way better.
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@n0wheregrrl Regarding, "Do you expect anyone to actually read through all of that shit every time?" Some of us have more to say than can fit in a children's book. If you don't want to read it then don't. I really wish you wouldn't and it's more for others at this point who are capable of thinking about the things I say more logically.
Regarding, "when you tell me to vote out of fear and not principle" Except I'm not asking you to sacrifice your principles. Even according to you you would be voting for Sanders if Tulsi wasn't running. And that's going to be the case for almost all of her supporters. It's not like she's pulling people away from biden. Do you not think Sanders is a progressive? Because if you think that then you would be sacrificing your principles. But you do. You just think Tulsi's a little better in your opinion. There's a world of difference between sacrificing your principles and voting strategically.
Let's say the general in 2020 has Bernie versus Trump for the major parties and it looks to be close. Tulsi feels fucked over and runs 3rd party, she's polling at 5 percent. You still think she's better but you still like Sanders, just not as much. Would voting for Sanders be sacrificing your principles in that scenario? Or do you at least understand on some level that voting strategically is merely the result of being able to use logic and reason? That it's not all about fear but about being smart and trying to make the most out of the single vote you get? Do you at least understand how her running in that scenario would be splitting the vote? Because the concept isn't just a fantasy to be dismissed outright?
Regarding, "If you like her "significantly more,"" Read it again. I clearly state that I like Tulsi significantly more in addition to all the blatantly obvious context around it.
Regarding, "so was MOST of the Democratic party." You know who wasn't? Sanders. He has been advocating for gay rights as long as tulsi has been alive because that's what a leader does even when they know it's not popular.
Regarding, "Her voting record is unimpeachable." Her voting record on the issue is great. It's why I never use those words. I may use more words than you like but I try to pick them carefully. I respect that her voting record on the issue is great. Still I question her judgement because of her history on the topic. There is a reason I say things like, "when someone tells you who they are, listen" and "people don't really change." Do you disagree with that? Or do you just not want to admit that her history (not voting record) is questionable. Because it is. It leads me to think she thinks they are "lesser than" but deserve the same rights.
Again... I'm so not trying to make this about who is better. This isn't about that. But I'm going to respond if you keep trying to turn it into that.
Regarding, " it's called "manufacturing consent."" Really? You think Bernie is manufacturing consent for war with venezuela? God damn. It feels like you are just trying to reverse engineer things to say at this point.
Regarding, "Tulsi, by contrast, doesn't fall for their bullshit ... like, EVER." She. Went. To. War. But that was 10 years ago... aka ancient history.
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@n0wheregrrl Regarding, "Oh my god, you are an unbelievable idiot. How can one person spew so much verbal vomit and have so little of substance to say?" The irony. Thanks for the laugh dipshit.
Regarding, "it IS also literally EXACTLY the same argument Hillbots" Except it's obviously not the same argument to people with more critical thinking skills than yourself. You are dismissing the valid reasons the things they say are able to resonate with people and not separating out the bullshit they coat it in that I'm not doing.
Strategic voting makes perfect sense. It's why people only tend to vote for candidates running and don't even consider writing people in if I were to use a reductio ad absurdum argument.
Regarding, "I REFUSE to let that kind of thinking guide my voting decisions." In your analogy Hillary is terrible. That is why you correctly wouldn't support her. How the fuck is that even close to your thinking about Sanders and what I'm doing? Spoiler alert: it's not.
This is what I do. Please feel free to tell me what you think is wrong with it and where my reasoning, strategy, and logic go off the rails so much that you think I'm being just like a Hillbot. (or don't, actually PLEASE don't, if you do I figure it will continue to be the same stupid nonsense you've been going with).
Step one... and this is really, really important, it's the step that hillbots always leave out and/or try to manipulate. It's where we obviously are not fundamentally the same. First I determine for myself if I think a candidate is worthy of my support. You know the signs they have at carny rides and shit that read, "you have to be at least so tall to ride." Well I have my own sign for politicians that reads, "you have to be at least this amount of decent to get my vote." Nobody under that line gets considered. At best hillbots can be said to have their own line that reads, "better than trump" when that line needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY higher for lots of obvious reasons, and mine is.
That's why my vote in 2016 was a no brainer to me. Jill Stein was the only candidate running that I thought was above that line so my decision was made for me. It only gets interesting when there is more than one candidate above the line. Then I have something to think about and consider. Then I get to think about strategy. I consider things like who I think is better AND who has the best chance to win (among other minor shit not really relevant). I have one fucking vote and I want to make it count. That's just being logical and being smart... not fear, or sacrificing principles, or the same argument as hillbots because I have step one and my line which prevents me from supporting pieces of shit.
Sanders in my opinion is the better candidate. He also has the far better chance of winning so again I don't really have much to think about at the moment. You on the other hand should. Because even if you wrongly think Tulsi is a little bit better you should realize that the guy with more name recognition and more popularity, who because of the work he's done forcing the corporate media to cover him and isn't facing the same amount of media blackout as he did in 2016 while Tulsi is, has the better chance of winning. If you care about getting a progressive president that should be relevant to you even if it's not enough to get you to support Sanders over Tulsi as of right now.
And it has so much more to do with Tulsi than it does about you to me. You are nothing. Tulsi is important. And it's my belief that what she is doing, despite some clear advantages that I do like and despite the fact that she is the only candidate other than Sanders who I consider to be clearly above my line at the moment, is ultimately making it more likely a corporate shill like biden gets in the white house by dividing progressive support. And that's a problem for me. That's by far my biggest problem with her at the moment. Maybe I'm getting it wrong. I sure hope I am. But none of the bullshit you have said has done anything to convince me otherwise.
Regarding, "I'm so done with this." Thank you in advance for this. I have a hard time letting stupid shit go unanswered.
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@LisaMurphy Regarding, "I like Bernie but Tulsi is a better candidate because she's hardcore against the war profiteering. More so than Bernie." Bernie has been preaching a message of peace for longer than Tulsi has been alive. Sadly she didn't listen to him after 9-11, stayed out of Iraq, and avoided serving the MIC personally. Don't get me wrong I'm glad she seems to have gotten the correct message from her service, but I would have respected her judgement on the topic far more if she didn't need to experience war first hand to draw the obvious conclusions from it. She is showing the same type of judgement John McCain shows on torture and gay rights... they are positions born of personal experience when they shouldn't have needed that personal experience to come to the no brainer conclusions.
Regarding, "I like Yang because he's very knowledgable about business and technology. Big plus for Yang is he's not a politician. Big plus!" How did this type of "logic" work out for trump supporters? Since when did a lack of experience in politics become a good thing? He hasn't earned the right to be legitimately considered in my opinion. I require people demonstrate how they will govern before giving them the highest position in government. You have absolutely no way to know how yang will govern with any certainty whatsoever because he never has. All you have to go off is his rhetoric, which, in all honesty, is one of the absolute worst ways to think you know something about a politician. A record on the other hand tells you what you really need to know. (That and where are they getting the money for their campaign.)
Regarding, "Bernie's been in D.C. for about a half century." And in all that time he has demonstrated the type of judgement I want from our next president. He's fought for politically inconvenient positions, like fighting for gay rights before it was popular, and opposing war with Iraq in the immediate wake of 9-11. Experience is a good thing to me. And I know EXACTLY what I'm getting with him because of how long he's been around and how consistent he has been on the issues. He's the no brainer option in my opinion and I'm lost as to why anyone would support anyone else... unless they are rich as fuck or a corporation.
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@LisaMurphy Regarding, "What has Bernie gotten done as a senator?" First off it's important to note that he is a lone voice of reason in a sea of swamp creatures. Sadly his power as he stands all alone could never be that great. That said he still used the little power he has quite effectively... it's why he is known as the "amendment king."
Or if you want something recent how about the fact that he has pressured amazon to raise their minimum wage to 15 and hour. Or the fact that a majority of republicans support medicare for all because of how he is winning the war of ideas.
Regarding, "Remember his "I'm sick of hearing about her damned emails" moment?" Yup. Clear as day. I could remember thinking... I totally fucking agree. I seriously don't give a flying fuck about her emails. How about we talk about the really important shit like war, health care, the environment, money in politics, criminal justice reform, and about a dozen other things that I did consider important at the time. It is also of note that the most damning shit about hillary and her emails had yet to come out. His answer to that question may very well have been very different had the same question been asked a couple weeks or a month, later. I don't remember exactly when the worst of the worst came out... but I do know it was AFTER he answered that question.
Some of us love that he is so issues oriented. That he focuses on building support for progressive causes rather than trying to tear others down. Some of us love that he wants to make it all about policy. If you want a candidate who is all about focusing on the people running against him you should be supporting trump. That's all trump does... attack.
Regarding, "he also supported her in the general" Did you listen to him during the campaign? How he said over and over and over and over how dangerous he thought Trump was? That he would do anything and everything to stop trump from winning? You want to question his decision here? Ok. I get it. But try to understand how important it is that were hillary to lose that SHE be blamed for her loss... not bernie. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of people trying to blame everything other than hillary, and there have been plenty of people who have tried to blame bernie for her loss... but there's a reason those attacks don't land. There is a reason that the sane blame hillary for her loss. And that's really fucking important.
If bernie didn't endorse hillary she would have absolutley been absolved of any blame for her defeat. And even thou I'd agree with you that his decision to support her was questionable at the time, I can't tell you how happy I am that most people understand that the fault was hers, and that sanders has put himself in a position to finish what he started in 2016 because he did the hard thing... yeah the hard thing. Because if you think he was happy about it you are crazy.
Try to remember that Sanders was the only fucking reason hillary and company even needed to rig the game. Don't be afraid to show some appreciation for this, rather than just contempt because he didn't do everything exactly how you liked.
As progressives we can disagree about tactics to achieve our goals. But just because some have different ideas about to best achieve those goals don't think they are any less progressive.
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Darien regarding, "Bernie has a lot of great ideas" Yes. He does. And all his ideas poll exceptionally well with the public for good reason.
Regarding, "so does rand Paul" Other than slashing the military and legalizing weed I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Regarding, "I am against giving the federal government unlimited power over our lives." I don't know of anyone who wants that. I'm as far "left" as anyone I know but at the same time I want the military budget slashed, I don't my tax dollars going as subsidies to big oil, gas, and other corporations, I want the patriot act abolished, I want a small government that stays out of my bedroom among other "conservative" ideas. Ultimately I accept that we are going to have a government regardless so I want good government. But that is what we all think we want... it just means different things to different people.
To me good government helps make sure everyone in the country has health insurance especially when I know that everyone in the country NEEDS it. There isn't a single person that can do without it so to me a good government makes sure its there especially when I know that when they do it will cost less, provide better service, and serve everyone. Some think that is "unlimited power." I very much disagree.
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Aitch regarding, "I don't think he could have switched to 3rd party anyway, and only got the following he did by using the Dem platform." He was absolutely correct to run as a democrat originally but after they actively worked to rig the game and it was proven from wikileaks he definitely could have run with the Green Party (Jill Stein offered him the top of the ticket) and things may have been very, very different but we will never know.
Regarding, "Read WikiLeaks, vote third party, and we'll see you again soon" That's just not his style. He is determined to talk about policy and wants to run an issue oriented campaign always. It is hilarious to me that Hillary cried about him throwing mud when the opposite was obviously true. Many people are pissed that he didn't hit her harder.... there obviously was plenty for her to be attacked about. But he just wanted to talk about money in politics, single payer, raising the min wage, protecting the environment, breaking up the banks, income inequality, ect.
Regarding, "Trump still would have won," I think Bernie would have won the most electoral votes but maybe not a majority. Hillary and Trump are both rightfully despised and Sanders is loved. Even people who voted for Hillary and Trump hated them most the time... they just hated their opponent more. I think that had Sanders run with Jill Stein they win. But like I said I think that should Sanders win in 2020 as a democrat that may very well be the best outcome. I could see a scenario where if Sanders wins in 2016 the establishment lets him get nothing done while in power and then after he is gone we go back to business as usual. Again should he win as a democrat he might be able to turn that pile of shit party into something useful again. I don't see the US having more than 2 major parties anytime soon and we really need at least one of them to not suck for once.
Regarding, "3rd party got his bump the Dems would have had their arms twisted to take on some actual policies" They lost to Trump and they are still not going to really change. You can see the corportists fight it. They are happier to lose to Trump than let a progressive win who might upset the system that feeds them. Even supporting medicare for all is only being done for political reasons. I think the only way that party really changes is if Sanders is able to take the reigns and force them to ban corporate contributions for example. Then all of a sudden we would have a party that might care about the people instead of their big money donors.
I think we have very similar ideas about what we want. Thanks for the conversation about how we might make it happen even if we disagree on some things.
Sorry if I seem like a Bernie apologist. I fucking love him despite him not being perfect. He is about the only politician of power that I think is in it for the right reasons and this country desperately needs change. That is what Obama was able to win on... Change. Sadly we didn't get it and the public was willing to elect a known complete POS like Trump just because they couldn't say for sure how he might govern since he never has.
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@leovolont Regarding, " you didn't hear the same thing I heard was that Bernie blew off Debate Prep and concentrated on getting all his stump speeches down to a minute or 30 seconds depending on the debate situation." Nope. I can't say I heard that Bernie blew off debate prep to try and do debate prep. Now I know you must be a paid troll but I'm going to have some fun with you.
Regarding, "Do I really need a citation when I am pretty sure that if I heard it then you heard it too, right? Let's be honest with each other, right?" I have no idea what you are talking about. But I'm going to assume that you think I'm lying about something as silly as this because you are compulsive liar assuming people think like you. We don't. Some of us aren't pieces of shit.
Regarding, "but again, there is nobody to the Left of Warren, right?" Um. No. Holy fuck. Are your comprehension issues really this bad? I've already answered this question and the answer was no.
Regarding, "I KNOW what all the Policy Wonks say." And still you want to ignore policy.
Regarding, "The Stupid Wonks are for Yang for Krise sake!" But I'm a policy wonk and I support Bernie. Do I not count? Oh wait... you said stupid wonks. I guess you are calling me a smart wonk. Thanks for that I guess. I would be more meaningful if I thought more of your opinion but that was still nice of you.
Regarding, "undo the damage that Bernie does to himself" What exactly are you referring to that would require a ZILLION people to address. It sounds pretty serious.
Regarding, "in the last Election his Grass Roots, probably guys, HURT him." That's probably why he closed a 60 point gap going in.
Regarding, "Going door to door yelling at and insulting people for being stupid, yeah, that really helped." Aren't you the same person who just used the phrase "stupid wonks" two seconds ago?
Regarding, "the best thing Bernie ever did was to Wake Up Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. SHE is now the Personification of the Progressive Movement." I can't wait for her endorsement of Bernie so that your head might explode.
Regarding, "we should give him his Life Time Achievement Award" Are you always this ageist?
Regarding, "If Warren does not pass him I'll hunt you down and give you 20 bucks." No you won't. And if I believed this bullshit I'd probably believe Warrens bullshit as well.
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@BigRob1994 regarding, "the further left you go..." I'm not looking for a discussion about left versus right. This is irrelevant to the topic at hand. The topic at hand is whether or not the corporate media is "left wing." I gave you a pretty good list although not a comprehensive one of what issues are important to the "left wing." Do you dispute this list? Do you want to claim that these aren't the thing the left cares about? Because I AM "THE LEFT" and those are the first things I want to talk about when I talk about the things I care about. So if your claim is true that the corporate media is "left wing" then show me how that is demonstrated when it comes to those issues... the ones I care about. Or don't and concede that your claim is BS. Because not only do they not represent me, but they actively oppose the things I do care about.
Regarding, "To me all of the mainstream is left wing" Demonstrate this claim by showing me how the corporate media represents me... because they don't. I'm "left wing" and go out of my way to trash them constantly. Why the fuck would I do that if they supposedly represent me and my interests?
Regarding, "I get mad about you all taking half of our ideology because you call it left wing." Huh. It is left wing in that those are policy positions the left want. Do you disagree that these are things the left cares about? Because we do. How about you not care so much about the left/right labels so much? That is a bullshit narrative the corporate media loves to use to divide us. How about, instead of worrying about ownership of those issues, we instead work together in the areas we agree on? Instead of you getting pissed about us wanting to end the war on drugs and stop the military industrial complex you instead try to work with us where we share common ground?
Regarding, "Look at it this way..." Dumbest analogy ever. Forgive me for not addressing it intelligently.
Regarding, "I dont think the left is as bad as nazis," Thanks I guess. I too do not think libertarians are as bad as nazis.
Again... please stop with the BS left/right narrative. The narrative that matters when it comes to the corporate media is the haves (big money, corporations, the establishment) and the have nots (the peasants). Realize the corporate media doesn't represent me. If I did I'd be there getting my news (aka propaganda) but instead I trash them and come to places like here for a reason.... Kyle represents me and my interests in a way the corporate media doesn't even come close to doing.
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@wavegodrobsanders539 Regarding, "This could take the form of a direct race-specific initiative like a dramatic reparations program tied to compensation for the legacies of slavery and Jim Crow, and/or an initiative that addresses the perniciousness of wealth inequality for the entire American population, which could disproportionately benefit black Americans" AND/OR AN INITIATIVE THAT ADDRESSES THE PERNICIOUSNESS OF WEALTH INEQUALITY FOR THE ENTIRE AMERICAN POPULATION, WHICH COULD DISPROPORTIONATELY BENEFIT BLACK AMERICANS.
Examples of this might include taking trillions from wall street and reinvesting it into education, education that would be given disproportionately to blacks. And taking money from the richest of the rich to provide health care to public, a public where a lack of health insurance disproportionately affects blacks. And taking money from the richest of the rich and making sure they give their employees enough to live on, like raising the minimum wage with disproportionately affects blacks. And taxing the rich and corporations significantly more in general to pay for social programs. This is stuff I've already talked about. All of these things would help even if none of them is going to level the playing field perfectly in and of themselves.
Regarding, "According to this logic, we would expect blacks and whites with similar levels of education to display comparable levels of wealth." No, we wouldn't. The disparity of income earned between whites/blacks is a COMPLETELY independent problem. GIVING (as opposed to making them pay for outrageously expensive college education at the expense of the rich) college educations to blacks leaves them with more money in their pocket. A LOT MORE over the course of a lifetime. As for trying to make sure that it is the same as whites at the same education level is a completely different problem requiring completely different solutions. And even if we were able to magically make sure that blacks and whites all of a sudden overnight were to make the same at the same education levels that doesn't change the fact that more blacks aren't able to get that education to make that more money equal to whites. THEY WOULD STILL NEED TO BE EDUCATED AT THE SAME RATES TO GET THE SAME MONEY.
Look at the figure 1. Forget for a moment about the disparities between the races and just focus on how much more blacks with a college education make compared to blacks with only high school. It's a lot and it fucking matters to those blacks who have it.
Now, going back to the disparity between the races I absolutely agree that the disparity between the races at similar education levels is a crime. I'm open to ideas about addressing it. (and forgive me for repeating myself, I do that too much) But that is an independent problem altogether.
Regarding, "Black students are more likely to take on student loans and accumulate student loan debt" Unless we do something about it. And if we did it would help.
Regarding, "it could be argued, alternatively, that hard work can close the wealth gap." I'm not saying that, but I am saying raising the minimum wage would help.
Regarding, "Martin Luther King Jr. called for a ‘bank-in’ movement." And MLK was correct in that this would help. That is not the same to thinking it would magically solve all the problems. Things like these are ways to address the problem and attack it from different angles.
Let's imagine a world where hypothetically all cash wealth was overnight magically equalized in the form of reparations. Problem solved right? Wrong. Because that cash then gets put into the system, a system that still favors the powerful and those with the businesses. A system where blacks have less education. A system where the pay gap at equal educations is unbalanced. Jeff Bezos suddenly has no cash but people are still going to keep buying his shit at amazon. Solutions like the one MLK is proposing here is an effort to address one of the many, many, many problems out there. Is a comprehensive solution like the author think NIxon thought it was? Obviously not.
Regarding, "continued economic penalties forced upon black workers" This makes me think of Sanders and AOC's proposal to curb the interest rates of loan sharks and predatory lenders.
Regarding, "But the failure to bank black or buy black does not explain why we have a racial wealth gap of this magnitude" Of course not. There is so so so so so so so much more going on than just this. But if we ever we able to achieve "perfect equality" you would want this going on as opposed to spending your money at the walmarts and amazons of the world.
Regarding, #4 saving. Saving is good advice for everyone. That said it's not like I think blacks are just being dumb not saving money. I understand you can't save what you don't have. But let's say you have an education and are making more (even if it's not as much as whites at the same level) then you hopefully are able to be saving more. And passing that down. Because wealth does create wealth. It takes money to make money.
I'm writing this as I go and before I've read past the headline but the premise is bad because the notion of saving money works with all the other solutions. Of course it doesn't work in a vacuum all by itself. But if you are able to get your hands on money putting some of it away sure as fuck helps. Look at how the rich make so much of their money. They put it in the stock market and let it sit their while they cash in on dividends and don't pay taxes on it like those making their money with elbow grease.
Again... it's not a solution in and of itself but it's a good idea for those with the means. I'm guessing the article is just going to tell me that they don't have the means.
And now that I've read all of #4 I admit most of that went over my head. I was pretty lost there.
Regarding, #5 is dumb at face value. Never thought that or anything even remotely close to it. I'm skipping it.
Regarding #6 as usual they are conflating the solution offered with the problems of attaining the solution.
The mention zuckerburg and bezos because those guys were able to do what the "solution" proposes. So the "solution" is fine... it worked for the rich guys who had access to the "solution." So it isn't so much a problem with the solution as it is the playing field going in to use the "solution."
This is already crazy long and none of the other myths seem relevant to the things I've been saying. I'm also not going back and proofreading any of this so sorry for the typos.
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@NudeSophist Regarding, " Didn't Warren call for open borders?" Huh? Do you think I was advocating for Warren or some shit? Do you think I'm a big fan of hers? I'm obviously not so I'm in awe as to why you are going to try to tell me bad things about her.
Regarding, "against Trump" In all honesty I barely give a shit about the general election. The election that really matter is the "democratic" primary. As much as I think the Bidens of this world can possibly lose to trump the fact of the matter is that trump is fucking terrible. A complete piece of shit like Hillary got millions more votes than him, and that was back when trump had the unknown going for him. Now there is no doubt about how terrible he is. He is a fucking clown and I'd vote for a bag of dogshit on fire before I'd vote for him.
The question people really should be asking is who SHOULD beat Trump, not who can beat Trump. But for those people that are asking the wrong question instead of the right one the answer is still Bernie Sanders.
Regarding, "The way I see it, if your a democrat either you get Tulsi Gabbard to join as Sanders VP or there is no chance Trump won't win. Everyone else is just utter shite." Bernie Sanders/Satan could beat trump I think. The point I'm trying to make is that far, far, far too much importance is put on the bottom half of the ticket. That simply is not what people are thinking about when they vote. We should be focusing on getting him the nomination. Period. And he can be trusted to pick a great running mate. As for it needing to by Tulsi, and I'd be happy as hell with her, why would it need to be her? It's not like he needs to pick someone running against him. I actually think that someone supporting him at the moment and not opposing him makes more sense. Ultimately, again, the bottom of the ticket are just unimportant details when thinking about the chance of winning.
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@cheddarj8086 Regarding, "unfortunately, rn, yes" LFMAO. No.
Regarding, "It gets us nowhere" It does. Literally every step of the way we get to see who actually supports getting m4a and who is full of shit. There isn't a single good reason not to do this.
Regarding, "makes the progressive movement look weak" By forcing the vote? By using the little power they have to actually get something they want done? Doing nothing is BEING weak.
Regarding, "when it hits the house floor and gets absolutely brutalized." Gets absolutely brutalized? LMFAO. What an apt description of the blowback and price that some of these politicians are going to pay for voting against health care in a pandemic. It's a winning position. It's worth the fight. That's why they don't want the vote so much.
Regarding, "all I’m trying to say is this is not a hill to die on." m4a isn't the hill to die on? Let's agree to disagree. If this isn't worth fighting for nothing is.
Regarding, "Many progressives are now calling AOC a snake" Yeah. It's almost like her actions have consequences. It's almost like just talking the talk isn't going to be enough. And that is how it should be. If she doesn't want to be called a snake all she needs to do is the right thing.... the same MFing things she SAID she was going to do. And I don't tolerate BS from anyone. Even less so from a person I actually expect something from.
Regarding, "a backstabbed for not calling for this vote" It is. It's the same thing she said she would do while running. Now she is stabbing us in the back, betraying us, and betraying her word.
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@chrystalmcatee6224 regarding, "you God haters sure are angry" I can't hate something I don't think exists. I'm angry with people like you, who use faith instead of using logic, reason, and evidence.
Regarding, "there are cures for cancer but they have been kept from the public because big pharma" Do you have evidence of your claim? Of course not. Because your cult has you trained to think things without good evidence. But let's say what you are saying is true... then pray to your god for an end to big pharma as if praying works... which it ABSOLUTELY doesn't. There is more evidence that praying for someone who is sick is WORSE for them then not praying, likely because of the psychological stress they feel to get better and prove that praying is doing them good.
Regarding, "I have complete faith in God to serve justice." Of course you do. It must be nice to think there is some kind of karmic justice being dished out in the afterlife where people get to be burned for an eternity as if that punishment is apt for any crime. That you more special then you are... and get to live in the clouds in eternal bliss with your lost relatives. Your beliefs are absurd and wishful thinking.
Regarding, "At the very least do u not believe in karma." No. Absolutely not. Do you have proof of karma? Of course not. But again, you are trained by your cult to believe things without it.
Good luck being a sheep in the future. I know you will. You are exactly the type of nonthinking believer religions need. You use faith instead of logic, reason, and evidence like you should. But tell you what... if faith is so good use it for everything. Use it when cross the street instead of using your senses to cross the street... like a sane person would.
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@LeftIsBest001 Regarding, "Every single day of her Senatorial career, Warren has fought against Big Banks, Big Pharma, Wall Street and on behalf of Americans." In which she has accomplished dick all other than some finger wagging. Meanwhile, she has stated her commitment to taking legalized bribes should she make it to the general.
Regarding, "She's NEVER compromised with Republicans to weaken her stance." She WAS a Republican herself as recently as the 90s. People don't change like that so late in life unless they are pandering and pretending to be something they are not.
Regarding, "She's NEVER supported or condoned the use of torture." She recently voted to give Donald Trump, a person she claims is "unhinged" more money for bombs than even the orange clown wanted. But what could possibly go wrong with that am I right? The department of offense really needed those extra billions didn't they? But it's not torture when you are just trying to kill people so that's different and better somehow.
Regarding, "Yes, I can see how you'd find that amusing. 🤔. Fuckwad." I find your stupidity amusing in a pathetic idiotic sort of way. Fuckwad.
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@My 2 Cents Regarding, " if you think Yang is terrible based off who he endorsed you need to take a hard look at your candidate." Again... this is but one reason of many why he is terrible. And if you want to continue to act like an endorsement during an ongoing election is the same as an endorsement after a primary... I find you impossible to take seriously. You are comparing apples to oranges whether you realize it or not.
Regarding, " I don't know what fictional world you're living in" LMFAO. I have math to back up my "fictional world" claims. Biden hasn't won. Because math.
Regarding, "last time I checked Biden is the one with the 156 delegate lead, black vote, and better polling in southern states." Last time I checked more than half the states have yet to vote, Biden has dementia, Biden has an atrocious record, and Biden is a pathological liar. We haven't even had a one on one debate.
Regarding, "If I'm a sheep for using statistics and common sense I'll happily sport the label of "sheep". But, to each his own. You'll see what I'm talking about in 3 months." I don't even think you are sheep. I think it's worse than that... I think you are disingenuous. And if you think I don't understand that Sanders is behind and things aren't looking good you would be wrong about that just like you are wrong about pretty much everything.
Good luck with your efforts to try and convince everyone that it's over even though more states have yet to vote than have not. Only dipshits think contests are unwinnable at halftime.
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@goblinstrategist301 Regarding, "They're not frauds because they disagreed with one tactic on one policy." They are frauds because their actions don't match their words. They ran on fighting for m4a. They had real power and real leverage. They used it to get nothing.
Regarding, "You guys are watering down the term fraud to the point where it doesn't mean anything." You are defending clown politicians whose actions are proving they are frauds. You should really stop it.
Regarding, "AOC still gets pretty much all of her money from small donors." It's not about this. It's about her saying that she would fight for m4a and campaigning on it to get all those small donors and then betraying them and voting for mama bear and getting nothing for it. She is suppose to be different than corporate dems but she is voting in lock step with them for indefensible garbage.
Regarding, "TYT is still one of the most progressive channels in this country." They are garbage and they are lead by liars.
Regarding, "They were wrong on this singular issue." Not only are they "wrong" but they were actively and maliciously lying. Stop polishing turds like them.
Regarding, "They happen to be right about most other issues." Does that make lying ok? It doesn't work that way. It's propaganda garbage bought and paid for by team clinton. Why do you think they got that 20 million?
Regarding, "The fact that they were wrong on this one issue doesn't make them "frauds."" People whose actions don't match their words are accurately called frauds. Do the world a favor and stop defending POS like them. Thanks.
Regarding, "There's way more important fights than this." This is about m4a. Are you really sure there are way more important fights than this? Stop being silly.
Regarding, "Jimmy is making 90% videos about punching people on the left" He's punching the people standing between the people and m4a. It's about m4a. Stop making it about "left" and "right."
Regarding, "way more corporate media outlets..." Sorry not sorry for wanting to spend all my time attacking fox or whoever you think is the worst. I don't need to think someone is the "worst" to think they are terrible.
Regarding, "Pick your enemies better." Pick your allies better. If you think TYT is you can't be more wrong. If you think AOC is while she votes for mama bear and gets nothing for it while she ABSOLUTELY had the power to get a vote on m4a and didn't then again can't be more wrong. You could be spending your time attacking the people standing in your way of getting health care but instead are here treating me and jimmy like enemies. You should take your own advice.
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@alexs1640 Regarding, " you need to lend me your crystal ball so I can also see the future" You don't. It's not what is important. What's important is people not support evil. The rest is just details for you to get lost in.
Regarding, "You don't know that Biden in 2020 will lead to Trump in 2024" Maybe not. But I can't see any other way the next 4 years play out. Biden doesn't have a cure for coronavirus. Or a plan to give people money, or jobs, or health care. We are entering a depression whether or not you can see the obvious signs. And whoever has the WH will be blamed. Do you even bother to ask how trump got elected in the first place? Maybe figure that out so that might avoid it going forward. Because history is going to repeat itself.
Regarding, "And this whole idea of enabling evil is stupid." Nope. You are just being stupid and enabling evil.
Regarding, "Trump is the bad candidate." Thanks captain obvious.
Regarding, "I swear some of you guys are taking this "holier-than-thou" attitude as if it's beneath you to vote for the lesser of two evils." LMFAO. Yes, voting for evil is beneath me. It should be beneath you. You don't need to be holier than thou to not support evil for fucks sake. I swear you must be willfully stupid when you know what you are supporting is evil and you support it anyway. "Lesser evil" = STILL EVIL.
Regarding, "Are you doing it for attention?" Maybe I'm just tired of having clowns for president. If it makes you feel any better I give the same message to trump supporters. Do you really not understand the point I'm trying to make? It's really not as complex as you make it seem. It's crazy simple really.
Regarding, "The best way to get change isn't to burn our country down." Do you even think about the things you say before saying them? You might think burning the country to the ground is dumb. But it clearly would be change. Voting for Joe "nothing will fundamentally change nothing" biden is not the best way to get change if that's something you actually care about, realize it, or admit it.
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@zach8025 Regarding, "we’ve never experienced such complete corruption throughout an administration as what’s taking place right now." Except for pretty much every president in my lifetime and I'm old as dirt. Trump isn't even the worst president this century. GWB is.
Regarding, "Mitch McConnell started the ball rolling" Really? That ball wasn't rolling a long time ago? Or maybe you are whitewashing terrible people like, for example, newt gingrich.
Regarding, "I find him to be one of the worst bad actors in dismantling democracy." How about pelosi? And DWS? And the entire party who conspired to do anything and everything to stop Sanders from the nomination?
Regarding, "you take a good look at all the criminals Trump has put in place" Yeah. They were criminals long before trump and tend to all be recycled rejects from previous corrupt administrations.
Regarding, "own personal gains" How much is Hillary worth these days? What did she do to accrue all that wealth? The clintons were suppose to be millions in debt while they were in the WH because Bill had to pay for all his lawyers. So how did Hillary become rich as fuck while working in "public service?" Stop acting like Trump is a unique terrible. You do everyone a disservice when you do.
Regarding, "The rampant disregard for the future of our country and world at large." Trump is fucking terrible but you know what I can say about him that I can't about the previous presidents, especially Obama? 0 new wars under trump. I'll bet the world at large appreciates that far more than they give a shit about mean tweets.
Regarding, "The pardons of those who have been tried and convicted for crimes done in association with Trump’s own campaign." While terrible this is nothing new. Scooter Libby.
Regarding, "we have pulled back a whole new era of knowingly, wantonly and, with malice of doing wrong." New era? We were at war with everyone, before trump. Racist cops worked with impunity, before trump. Flints water was poison, before trump. The ironically called "land of the free" imprisoned more of the worlds population and the highest percentage of people in the world, before trump. Corruption was rampant, before trump. Millions didn't have health insurance, before trump. Stop acting like any of this shit is new. There is literally NOTHING new about trump and his terrible.
Regarding, "America today is pitied for what she has become. The world doesn’t respect America." No shit. As if any of this is new. Good for the world. Fuck the US. Who is the greatest sponsor of terror in the world and is the worlds greatest threat to peace and has been long before trump.
Regarding, "The world literally laughed and mocked Trump." I'm sure they won't mock the terrible piece of shit whose brain is rotting in their corrupt head. (FYI I'm talking about biden here) I'm just kidding. Of course they will. As they should.
Look.... I don't care if you want to tell people why trump is terrible. But I care when you pretend this shit is new. It's not. Not even close.
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@zach8025 Regarding, "We obviously differ on what we perceive as blatant and rampant corruption." Which is really sad. It really isn't the type of thing we get to have an opinion about.
Regarding, "please tell me when a Senate Majority Leader said, and followed through with blocking everything by never even allowing bills to be brought before the senate for voting?" Is this where you want to move the goalpost to now? I thought it was all about how trump is a unique evil. Is it now mitch is a unique evil? Mitch was doing this shit BEFORE trump was elected. You are proving my point that the problems were around before trump with this.
Regarding, "Describe to me all the presidents who have not divested?" Pretty much every president in my lifetime other than carter. Clinton and Obama weren't self described billionaires entering office who needed to do this. But both are rich as fuck now. Where did they get all their money?
Regarding, "Put their family in white house positions" Legacies in politics include the bushes on the "right" and the kennedys on the "left."
Regarding, "Which AG got involved with..." You really think this is the first POS AG in history? LMFAO.
Regarding, "Did the president’s bidding..." You really think this is the POS AG who was a partisan hack doing the president's bidding? LMFAO
Regarding, "Lied" This is the first time an AG was a liar? LMFAO
Regarding, "Authorized the attack on peaceful protesters" You must be young enough to have lived through Obama and Biden watching DAPL protestors have their constitutional rights trampled right?
Regarding, "expecting you to be honest" LMFAO. You don't give a single example of me saying anything untrue. I can go on and on but I have real tough time taking you seriously.
Regarding, "hyperbole of past administrations" LMFAO. Yeah... you are impossible to take seriously. I feel bad for you. I think you are well intentioned which is far more than I can say for most idiots on the internet. But you blame the wrong people. Much like republicans blame immigrants or soros and other stupid shit... you blame trump for the shit show that is. All of the rot in this country was around long before trump. But at least now you are starting to wake to the rot. That's why the establishment hates trump. Not because he is sadistic, or evil, or corrupt... but because he gives the ugly policies of the US an ugly face. He gets you pissed off about all the things wrong with the country even if you should have been pissed long ago. They would rather have Obama at the helm. Then when the US expands war, income inequality explodes, kids are put in cages (that started under obama and was only put on steroids under trump), millions go without insurance, mass incarceration and more is happening you just sleep through it while it happens.
Regarding, "the volume of criminals" It's almost like you know I'm right but won't admit it. More is not different... it's just more of the same. If my problem is rice and I don't like to eat it and you give me a plate of it... it sucks and I'm not happy. If you give me more rice... I don't care. Why should I? I'm looking for different.
Regarding, "Maybe you should have gotten off your ancient ass a long time ago" You want to blame me? LMFAO. Really? That's even stupider than trump supporters blaming immigrants for this countries problems. I didn't even know such a thing was possible.
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@Sergio Aguirre regarding, "Public schools are a joke" The biggest problem with public schools is that people like you don't want them funded the way they should be.
Regarding, "You are nobody and have no authority to tell anyone, anything about their lives." I'm sure you think you are somebody, who has authority, and is using it to tell me what I need to think and do.
Regarding, "Freedom is deciding the life you live" There is, has been, and always will be limits to freedom. Those limits are best used when people are using their "freedom" to hurt others.
Regarding, "no two people will make the same wage." Do you bother to think about the things you say before saying them? People make the same wage all the time. Like currently there are lots, and lots, and lots of people who make the same wage right now... the minimum wage. And even if you got your wish and there was no minimum wage there would still be people making the same wage. Think before you speak and maybe you wouldn't come across so idiotic when you do.
Regarding, ""living wage" is a bullshit term" It means that people should be paid enough to live on. It is a pretty simple, pretty easily understood concept.
Regarding, "Anyone who wants to use governemnt force on regular people to get them to do something is evil." Like those evil abolitionists who wanted to force people to stop slavery. They are the evil ones think mental midgets.
Good luck with your idiotic talking points in the future. I'm tired of addressing you and your BS. I've wasted more then enough time on you already. I'm happily done with this.
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@d-risky4994 Regarding, "so you say Bernie never left campaign mode since 2016" Yup. Because the fact of the matter is that you and everyone had zero reason to think he wouldn't be running in 2020.
Regarding, "I can say that since Tulsi and Bernie are friends that she might have more inside access to his campaign plans, indicating to me that he wasn’t sure enough to let his friends know his plan for 2020" Again you are trying to reverse engineer explanations to come to the conclusions you want. Tulsi actions are far better explained in that she knew Sanders was going to run and she just didn't give a fuck. And the exact same things can be said about Warren.
Regarding, "there is no indication that she is cannibalizes Bernie votes" You are an idiot trying to make explanations that make no fucking sense. In reality comments such as Bernie/Tulsi 2020 and Tulsi/Bernie 2020 are very common and Tulsi/Biden 2020 is nonexistent. You know damn well they are running the same lane. Everything you say demonstrates you understand this reality. You call them "allies" in your original post. But you don't want to concede the fact that she is taking her voters from Bernie because you would then have to concede the reality that her campaign is hurting Bernie.
Regarding, "and *SOME will continue to follow her if she backs out and supports Bernie" The majority of her supporters would back Bernie if dropped out today. That's the reality. Those are the facts. Are you first and foremost a Tulsi supporter? If she dropped out today who would you then be supporting in the "democratic" primary? Please answer those questions and please try to be intellectually honest while answering them.
Regarding, "BUT WHY STOP NOW?" It's like I haven't already given you logical arguments as to why she should not being running and should be supporting Sanders. Oh wait... I already have. Do I really need to repeat all the logical reasons she should not be running?
Regarding, "Her policies are vastly identical to Bernie’s policies" Yup. They are running the same lane, with the same policies, whose voters come from the exact same pool.
Regarding, "she is better at presenting foreign policy blunders" Is she thou? Bernie has been preaching a message of peace for longer than Tulsi has been alive. Bernie voted against the Iraq war. Too bad Tulsi didn't listen to him or she might have avoided going to serve the MIC personally the way she did.
Regarding, "can grow that message larger make her campaign LARGER" Her growth comes at Sanders expense. As I've already stated but you want to ignore the vast majority of her voters would be supporting Bernie if not for her. Because duh. Because facts. Because reality.
Regarding, "SHE CAN RUN ON BERNIES TICKET." Makes no fucking sense and doesn't make more sense because it's written in all caps. It's not like she needs a campaign to be considered for this. I'm actually far more fond of Bernie picking someone like Nina Turner to be his running mate because she is doing the right thing and supporting Sanders and helping him while Tulsi is hurting him, opposing him, and making it more likely an establishment shill gets the nomination.
Would Sanders be better if Nina were running against him? Of course not. Because reality. Because he, and the country, are better with her supporting Sanders and not opposing him. And the same concepts apply for Tulsi.
Regarding, "But we need Tulsi to overtake Warren and/or Harris first" You make no motherfucking sense. If tulsi ever gets this big she has even more reason to keep campaigning, keep opposing sanders, and keep siphoning votes away from him in a world where progressives would be wise to coalesce around the clear leader of the progressive movement.
Regarding, "WE NEED TO KEEP TULSI IN THE FUCKING RACE SO JUST STOP SHOOTING YOURSELF IN YOUR “INTELLECTUALLY HONEST” FOOT AND GIVE TULSI A SINGLE FUCKING DOLLAR" The irony is something. In reality you are shooting yourself in the foot. You and tulsi are splitting the progressive movement, you are making it more likely an establishment fuck like biden wins, and the sooner tulsi gets out of the way and endorses sanders, like she should have just done from the get go, the better. Every dollar I'm giving in this election cycle is going to Sanders because he is our best hope of getting a progressive in the WH. All progressives, peasants and politicians, would be wise to be working toward that goal while Tulsi is siphoning votes from him. Our best chance is unifying. Because duh. Do the world a favor and realize this sooner rather than later.
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@d-risky4994 Regarding, " you’re feelings are getting in the way of reason" The irony.
Regarding, "I very easily donated money to both Sanders and Gabbard" Fine. You know why you pick those 2? Because they are in the same motherfucking lane and you damn well know it. But you want to lie about the fact that they share the same voter pool because of what that reality means.
Regarding, "Because as you’ve said they are in the same lane, on the same ideological team." Cool. Obviously. No shit. But in reality only one of them can win the primary. I can only vote for one of them. I need to pick a side. I don't get to have my cake and eat it to.
Your original post you call them allies. But they are not even if they are in the same lane. The primary is a war where only one gets to win. They are on OPPOSITE SIDES trying to win over voters from the same lane. You know who really is an ally of Bernie? Nina Turner. Because that's the reality that you want to ignore.
Regarding, "Show the country that those who follow the true progressive path are rewarded with support so it pushes out charlatans like Warren and Harris." You want to know one of the ways I determine if people like Warren and Harris are charlatans? I ask myself if I think that what they are doing is in progressives interest. Well Gabbard isn't working in progressives interest anymore than Warren and Harris are when it comes to opposing Sanders. ALL OF THEM ARE OPPOSING HIM.
I've picked my team. I'm on team Bernie Sanders. And as much as I love Tulsi she is taking a knife and plunging it in his back at the moment.
You never answer any of my questions. I don't just ask them rhetorically ya know. There are points embedded in them.
Regarding, "Because while you keep saying that Tulsi voters are stealing from Bernie, I’m saying that donating $1 isn’t voting" The principles are IDENTICAL. Both are ways of showing support. Tulsi isn't getting a dime from me. I was on her mailing list. I sent her an email about 2 weeks before she announced her running and begged her not to run. I begged her not split progressive support. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I thought she was going to read it much less have it affect her, but I have understood the pitfalls of splitting the progressive vote going in. I wasn't just going to act like I didn't think she was fucking over Bernie while she was fucking him over because I want to like her.
SHE'S FUCKING UP. Why the fuck would I want to support that? How the fuck do you think that makes any motherfucking sense?
Regarding, "I’m saying that two ideological allies working to steal voters from Biden, Warren, & Harris" YOU ARE AN IDIOT. How the fuck did you end up on the smart team? It's like you have no fucking clue how elections work and how votes are distributed. I don't know how to make my points anymore clear so that you might understand them.
Regarding, "then joining forces to win the nomination" What the fuck are you talking about? Candidates don't get to share delegates.
Regarding, "Bernie’s biggest weakness is that he believes the other people on that stage are his friends" I am dumbfounded by how idiotic I find the things you say. The guy who calls for a "political revolution," the guy who was fucked over in the primary in 2016, the guy who goes out of his way to call himself an independent, the guy who has been smeared constantly since the beginning of time, the guy who is constantly bombard by "gotcha" questions believes the other people on that stage are his friends? What the fuck are you smoking? As always you have conclusions that you want to get to and just trying say anything to justify getting there. In reality the shit you say makes no motherfucking sense and it is beyond infuriating. I mean, I'm used to this type of stupid shit coming from trump supporters and Hillary/biden fans but coming from an "ally" this type of stupidity makes me want to shake a baby.
Regarding, "he doesn’t smear or attack, even when it is justified... he plays on the defensive all the time" You almost said something that wasn't completely moronic and then you went and fucked it up. Yes smearing and attacking isn't his thing. But it's not about being "defensive." It's about presenting his vision for the future. And you know what? It works. He doesn't need to tear people down because what people crave, even if they don't realize it, is a vision for the future, a plan for things to come, and substantive ways he might make their lives better. If you want a cunt whose who plan is smearing, tearing down others, and attacking constantly you may as well go support Trump because that's all he does. Sanders on the other hand would rather tell you how he is going to improve your life rather tell you why the other person sucks. It's just another way he is different than the average politician and just another reason why he is the fucking man.
Regarding, "There is no way he calls out Warren for her hawkishness." Thank god we had Tulsi on the debate stage with warren so that she could take him down a peg. Oh wait... Warren had a great night overall while Tulsi shit the bed until she had a moment taking down a clown whose name I don't even remember at the moment. Even Warren raised her hand to give the private health insurance industry the finger while tulsi disappointed me so much I wanted to break my tv.
Regarding, "You’re not being intellectually honest by questioning Tulsi’s superiority on foreign policy," Really? Because I gave a couple pretty good reasons why I question her superiority on the matter. First she enabled the MIC personally through her service and secondly her experience preaching a message of peace is nothing compared to Bernie who has been advocating for peace his whole life. The best argument that can be made for her "superiority" is that foreign policy is the only topic she really wants to talk about. Shit even when asked about the gender pay gap she thought giving her military resume would be a good idea when Bernie would have actually answered the question given to him.
Regarding, "Bernie paints his foreign policy in broad strokes, she actually fleshes out who, how, and why." American's don't give a fuck about the details. They want a president who brings the troops home and spends the country wealth on them rather than in foreign lands. They don't give a fuck about the nuances between sunni and shia.
Please answer some questions for me.
If Joe Biden ran in 2016 would that have been a game changer to the election to the detriment of Hillary? Assuming you realize this would have been a detriment to Hillary, how is this situation significantly different than what Tulsi is doing to Bernie?
Would Bernie Sanders be better off if Nina Turner would be running against him instead of being busy fighting in his corner? How is this situation different than Tulsi?
Do you understand that progressives are a finite number of voters? And they only get one vote to cast?
Would Bernie Sanders be better off if Warren were not running? Especially when lots of her supporters consider themselves to be progressives? How is this significantly different than what Tulsi is doing?
Do you understand that candidates cannot give their pledged delegates to one another? That the ability of any individual progressive candidate's chances are diminished when they have to share their voter pool?
As I write these I can already imagine the contrived, terrible answers that you are going to give as you do anything and everything to desperately concoct answers that suit the conclusions you want to come to.
I'm not proofreading any of that. I've already wasted far too much time on you already.
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Regarding, "I'm agnostic" Wow. I would have bet the house you were religious.
Regarding, "abortion is just taking responsibility away from women" So you want to make sure that irresponsible people are raising kids then? I don't find that to be a very compelling argument.
Regarding, "a hypocrite is someone who...." A hypocrite is defined as, "a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings." If my stated belief is that life begins at birth I am not acting in contradiction to my stated beliefs. A hypocrite is not, as you suggest a person who acts in contradiction to YOUR stated beliefs or feelings.
Regarding, "abortion is murder I don't care whether you disagree" I don't actually give a fuck if you think abortion is murder. You can think that all you want for all I care. But at least do so without acting like an idiot about it and thinking that it has anything to do with the death penalty. It doesn't. You know why? Because NOBODY is debating whether or not a convicted criminal is alive or not.
Regarding, "my conscience is clear" I'm not sure why you think I would care about this. I guess, if you wanted to know, not that I'm sure why you would, my conscience is also clear.
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Late term abortions are a minuscule minority of the abortions actually performed and very often done because of fetal abnormality. The VAST majority of abortions are very early in pregnancies and it's not even close. Let's say you wanted to only make late term illegal. Again you are going to be back to debating the line of when life begins.
As a man I tend to differ to women on this issue. Although there are women who are fervently "pro-life" I've met many more that are "pro-choice," and I'm reluctant to want to impose laws restricting their freedom. I want to live in as free a society as possible. I only want people's rights restricted when they infringe on others. No doubt you want to say a fetus is "others," but I disagree. There is definitely a line to be drawn as far as when you want to think life begins and I believe birth makes the most sense. I mean a birthday has been a birthday since the beginning of time because that is when we understand a person is born. We celebrate that date because that is when we, as a society, have decided life begins.
Maybe I'd be willing to move that line but I do concede that I am also influenced by my other world views. I believe that we live in what I consider to be a vastly overpopulated planet. We are consuming at an unsustainable rate and reproducing at an unsustainable rate creating immense pressure on the environment. I think the planet would be better off with lots less people. I'm not about to go killing people that everyone agrees is alive but I think it makes a lot of sense that children are not born to parents who don't want them. I'm not about to tell people they need to have kids because I think, in part, that is not fair to kids to insist they be raised by parents who don't want them.
Let me ask you this... if a women is raped, gets pregnant, and wants to have an abortion is that murder to you? (this is my equivalent of talking about late term abortions... it obviously is not representative of the majority of abortions but does happen) To me and most people this is obviously a clear no. And to me there isn't really a significant difference between that women getting an abortion and any women who isn't ready emotionally, financially, or just doesn't want to have a kid. I'm not about to call any of them murderers.
After people are born I want them treated as well as possible. I'm going to fight for them. But I need to decide when that fight begins. I'm obviously not going to fight for semen. Less obvious is what do about fetuses but ultimately I've decided life begins at birth and that is when I start fighting for them. People who are unwanted when born are at an incredible disadvantage and I see no good reason to insist they start life that way. Please note that I say start because, again, that is when I think it starts.
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Regarding, "Jesus is not what you see on TV" Of course. You, like every other religious nut job, from every other faith has this romanticized notion of what your god is like that says more about you than it does about the nonexistent thing you are talking about.
Regarding, "Jesus is someone that you have to..." This is not a very logical or practical way of doing things for an all powerful deity. I wish you understood how brainwashed and stupid all the bullshit you said was.
Regarding, "the good Lord can only do that if" Wait so your god isn't all powerful then?
Regarding, "you have to seek the good Lord" Why exactly does this make any fucking sense? What would you think if a parent treated their child this way? Did you dad to say to you after you were born, "I'm happy to be your dad but before I am going to be a dad to you you are going to need to find me" as they walked out the door.
Regarding, "everlasting life" You are a sheep who wants to believe in this bullshit because you can't accept the cold hard fact that when you die you are dead.
Regarding, "you might think you are Beyond recovery" I think you are probably beyond recovery. That is very different.
Regarding, "I tell you Jesus loves you" You say this but have nothing to say when I point out that your loving god likes to burn people in a lake of fire not for things like slavery but for simply not believing in them. Even if your god is real then your god is a dick according to your "good book."
Regarding, "have you read the Bible" Yes. That is why I'm able to cite how the bible gives rules for slavery as opposed to condemning slavery. Have you read the bible? Because you don't seem to know much about your fictitious god. Never do you even try to attempt to address me talking about how your bible gives slavery rules instead of condemning it.
Regarding, "are you Jewish" I've already said and made perfectly clear that I'm an atheist. Are you at all embarrassed when you ask questions like this?
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Regarding, "support (Keith Ellison)" How do you mean this? Are you saying this as only being in the past tense? Because earlier you were saying "I cannot bring myself to ever vote Democrat again." So I admit I can't be sure exactly what the fuck you are saying.
Regarding, "He was cheated..." You know why there is cheating? It is because there is a war being fought. I think you would be wise to support the good side as opposed to saying they can go fuck themselves because they are using tactics you disagree with.
Regarding, "So funny that you're watching Jimmy Dore?" Is it really? Do I have to agree with a person 100 percent of the time? I love Dore and I love Sanders but, spoiler alert, I don't agree with either of them on 100 percent of things. I don't even agree with myself 100 percent of the time as I occasionally change my mind even.
I think Dore is right about pretty much everything but I personally think there is value in fighting to takeover the party hostile takeover style. I'm not looking to coexist with corporate dems. I'm looking to kick their asses on the street. I want to purge them the same way progressives were purged. And you know why they were able to purge progressives? Because there were progressives to be purged. As in there are still people fighting the good fight even if they are hard to find at times. And I will support them because I believe in nuance and won't lump all people who are democrats and pretend they are the same. They are not.
Regarding, "The Democrats would rather lose to a Republican, than win with a progressive." You are talking about corporate democrats. Not all democrats. It is an important distinction.
Regarding, "They don't want you!!! Wake up." No shit. I don't want them (as in corporate dems) either. I'm not talking about supporting them. I'm talking about PROGRESSIVES. I support them. Regardless of the party label they wear.
Regarding, "even if Bernie miraculously got the nomination?" Yeah. It may take a miracle since people like you who think they are progressive aren't willing to support him in that battle or, even if he wins the nomination, the battle after.
Regarding, "Do you think Democrats would ever allow any of his policies to go through?" Huh? You act as if this is important to you but I'm not sure, again, why I'd take that seriously. Let's say Sanders did what you want and ran as a 3rd party candidate. Do you not realize that then both major parties would oppose everything he wants and would just try to run out the clock on his administration? Because they would. And don't get me wrong, corporate dems would still oppose pretty much everything a "democrat" president Sanders would try to pass but they would be more incentivized to work with him if he was a "democrat" as opposed to something else.
Regarding, "They at this very moment are mad at Donald Trump for not dropping more bombs on Syria" Except there are democrats like Sanders and Gabbard that are not happy about it.
Regarding, "You say I care about labels?" Yes. You demonstrate it by saying that you would support Sanders as a 3rd party candidate but wouldn't support him as a "democrat." So you obviously do care about that label far more than the person wearing the label. If you think Sanders isn't worth supporting as a dem then don't support him. Period. Regardless of the label he wears. I support him because I support him. The person. The ideas he advocates for. I'd support him if he were a dem, republican, independent, green, martian or other. That is what not caring about the label looks like. You do the opposite. Because you clearly do care about that label.
Regarding, "lets get away from that labels! News Flash!" News flash. Those labels aren't going anywhere anytime soon even if there is a great case to be made that they should. The "democratic" party is suppose to be our party. And I'm going to continue to fight to make it what it should be. That means I am going to vote in their fucked up primary for the most progressive candidate I can find. And if the succeed in getting a corporate shill as their nominee I will tell them they can go fuck themselves and I'll support someone I want to win... like I did with Jill Stein in 2016. But that is rightfully plan B.
Regarding, "Bernie Sanders won his state as a Independent!! Lets see him win the Presidency the same way!" Let's just pretend the entire system isn't rigged against 3rd party candidates. Or better yet. Let's accept that cold hard fact and act more accordingly.
If you think Sanders is worth support then support him. Or don't. You vote for people. Not parties. Or at least you should... but don't.
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The party, in general, is a dumpster fire. We don't disagree about that. You don't need to spend time talking about they ways they suck. They do. I don't disagree about that. The area that we disagree on is is what are we suppose to do about it. How is the best way to bring about progressive change in the future?
I personally think hostile takeover of the party is worth trying. Like I've already said corporate dems can be purged exactly the same way progressives were purged. The party nominee holds crazy power in the party. Power to shape and mold the party going forward. The ability to essentially unilaterally enact reforms. They get to pick the chair. The chair picks the people under them. Who pick the people under them and so on. One of the reasons why the party is going to suck until at least 2020 is because Hillary Clinton "won" the nomination. That is why Tom Perez got the job.
I don't think that should be the only plan in action but that is plan A. Plan B is building up other parties and supporting them if hostile takeover fails. Even if hostile takeover would succeed there is great benefit to having other parties with power and influence. That is important to keeping the major parties "honest," and pulling them to the left... which is where I want policy to be.
Regarding, "I just don't understand the need for popular candidates (especially Bernie and Keith) to attach themselves to a party that doesn't want them?" There are so many good answers to this question and none of them are because they are trying to coexist and live kumbyya (sic) with the corporate dems. It is about making the party into what it should be but obviously is not. That party isn't going to miraculously change all by itself ya know. We need people to force it to happen and those people need our support if they are going to be able to succeed.
I'd love to think that just telling that party that sucks and has betrayed us to go fuck itself is the answer but it isn't. We live in a world with lots of brainwashed sheep. Sheep that have their teams and support them regardless of what they are doing. Millions of people have already decided to vote for the democrat already and it doesn't matter who that person is. That is just the sad reality and we would be wise to accept it and act accordingly rather than pretend that isn't the case.
Then, especially at the national level, there is the electoral college. It isn't good enough to just get the most EC votes.... you need a MAJORITY of EC votes to win. That makes it incredibly difficult for a 3rd party candidate to win, especially when that candidate is certainly going to be splitting the vote with the "democratic" candidate.
Oh and again possibly the most important reason to be a "democrat" is because that is the only way to reform and change the party... from the inside.
Only sheep vote because of a party label. Vote for good people. People who share your values and priorities. I guess you can argue that giving the "democratic" party the finger is a priority. They do deserve it. But that is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
And I'm not saying they are owed your vote. They definitely are not. But there needs to be nuance and there is no nuance when you say things like, "I cannot bring myself to ever vote Democrat again." I have never, in my entire life ever voted for a Republican and have no plans to do so anytime soon. But I also never say I will never vote for a Republican. If Rand Paul were the Republican nominee in 2016 I may very well have voted for him just because of his positions on foreign policy and drugs. Maybe not. But I would have thought about it because the point I'm trying to make is that the person is more important than the party label. Get some good people in the parties and then maybe, just maybe, they would not suck so much. Just a thought.
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@WizardOfWor Regarding, "As I've said before MANY TIMES NOW, Biden isn't even my favorite. How many times must I keep repeating myself? I'm only concerned on what's best for the country in general." So in thought experiment land this =As I've said before MANY TIMES NOW, Hitler isn't even my favorite. How many times must I keep repeating myself? I'm only concerned on what's best for the country in general.
Regarding, "Dude, I voted for Bernie for the Democratic nominee, even though he had a lesser chance of getting the nomination." So... Dude, I voted for Bernie for the Democratic nominee, even though he had a lesser chance of getting the nomination. Vote for Hitler.
Regarding, "I'd never support Satan (Trump) or "Hitler"" Huh? You'd never support Satan, Trump, or hitler? Why am I to believe this? Where is this reflected in anything you have said previously? Everything you have said can be used to rationalize supporting ALL OF THEM. INCLUDING HITLER. Because that's where a lesser of two evils argument goes when you use a reductio ad absurdum argument... which is what I did even though I doubt you understand what I was doing.
Regarding, "I'm living in reality while you're living in fantasy land." I am in fantasyland for trying to address you intelligently. But you are so far gone you can't admit being a hypocrite while it's put right in your face and you can't answer simple questions. Well... I guess you did. Just not in an intellectually honest sort of way. But prove me wrong. What have you said that should lead me to believe you won't support hitler in hitler vs satan? When on the contrary EVERYTHING you have said says you would be all about hitler.
Regarding, "You don't know me at all." Even the things you have said here? They don't count... like... at all?
Regarding, "How do I make everyone dumber?" By, in part, not understanding that I just answered this very question and not being smart enough to realize it. By advertising and advocating for a philosophy that could be used to justify and rationalize supporting hitler and failing to realize that it doesn't while doing. And so much more. Go back and read everything I've already read. I've covered this.
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@WizardOfWor Regarding, "now you're referring to BIDEN as Hitler." No. I'm not. I made it clear that I made a hypothetical situation up. You are impossible to take seriously.
Regarding, "Why don't you explain to me & everyone else who you think we should vote for then, Mr. Expert?" Anyone that you think is GOOD. Anyone that you aren't conceding is EVIL. Being a sexual predator is disqualifying.
I guess I should add that this is you in my hypothetical... Why don't you explain to me & everyone else who you think we should vote for then, Mr. Expert? Vote Hitler. That's you. Because all you are doing and have done is advocate for a lesser of two evils. That's it. And don't you think hitler is worse than Satan? Of course you do... so you would support hitler.
Regarding, "Again, tell me & everyone else who we should vote for that's going to better this country for citizens, the economy, etc.? What other valid options are there as to which we can't re-elect Trump? Name them. And again, don't twist my words to & say that I'm calling you a Trump supporter."
So, in hypothetical, "Again, tell me & everyone else who we should vote for that's going to better this country for citizens, the economy, etc.? What other valid options are there as to which we can't re-elect Satan? Name them. And again, don't twist my words to & say that I'm calling you a Satan supporter."
You advocate for a lesser of evils. That's it. Whether you realize it or not. That's me "twisting your words?" That's you calling you out for your bullshit. Hitler is less evil than Satan. You would support him in my hypothetical. Lie all you want. You would support Hitler.
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@WizardOfWor Regarding, " you NEVER addressed me seriously, intelligently & "nicely" until now." You proved me right by not started. You proved me wrong to ever start. You were always hopeless. This was always a waste of time.
Regarding, "I started to call people names because you & others were the ones who were repeatedly disrespecting me, & I've had enough." Hypocrites always have rationalizations for their hypocrisy. Why what they are doing is different. Ultimately they are just hypocrites. But even some hypocrites are intellectually honest enough to admit it when they are being a hypocrite. You offer excuses and rationalizations.
Regarding, "Once again, you don't know me or my life. Period." Just repeating stupid shit doesn't make it true. You might have noticed this about me but I can be kind of a dick. I wouldn't even try to contend otherwise. It's like you could know something about me by talking about me. I for example know that you are a hopeless idiot. Even after pointing out why this type of statement is absurd you repeat it. You prove you are hopeless and incapable of learning.
Regarding, "You're one of the most nastiest, rudest people I've ever debated. That's saying a lot." OnCe AgAiN, yOu DoN't KnOw Me Or My LiFe. PeRiOd.
Regarding, "If you don't want to debate with people like myself properly & in a nicer way, don't even bother replying, because you're wasting MY time." Your time is less than worthless. Time you spend addressing me is time you aren't busy making someone else dumber. And you are funny to talk to for the same reasons I find flat earthers funny to talk to.
Regarding, "And that's ALL you had to say." It was essentially the exact same point the original poster was making. The one that made your brain melt the same way bidens brain is melting.
You think you are entitled to my time... or my respect. You aren't. You are part of the problem. If only I thought you weren't hopeless. I might have bothered to try to be convincing instead of rude. It's frustrating sharing the globe with people like you. It's like I'm living in Idiocracy except if I were in that movie my president would actually be better than the one I have. Commacho was dumb but he wasn't evil.
Regarding, "The woman accusing him has changed her story multiple times. It's supposed to be "Innocent Until Proven Guilty", NOT the other way around. Not every man is guilty." Biden is a clown but he gets one thing right... if you think he did it you shouldn't vote for him. I think he did it. Your innocent until proven guilty sounds cool but we aren't talking about the standard for him to go to jail... he is being vetted for POTUS. To suggest that my standards for getting my POTUS vote should be the same as my standards for saying he should be in jail cell... is, as is everything you say, asinine.
Regarding, "Not every man is guilty." Look at how comfortable Biden is making women uncomfortable ON CAMERA. It doesn't take much convincing that a person who demonstrates they don't understand and respect people's boundaries might have done such a thing.
Even if he didn't he still sucks. As a person and as a candidate. He, as is the majority of the "democratic" party, is corrupt as fuck. And I don't care to hear your latest corporate media talking points rationalize their suck. Not that I think you would even try to do so intelligently. Just more mindless garbage.
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@prodesu8607 Regarding, "I feel like you don't get what I'm saying." It's more that you don't get what the person asking the question was saying.
Regarding, "I agree that we shouldn't choose politicians based on those things." Go back and listen to the question being asked... that's what we are talking about right? Obama, at least in as much as the question would have you believe, DOES think we should be choosing a politician based on those things. It was the whole fucking question. The point made being, if women were in charge things would be better, not because of anything valid or of any of the things you want to make this about... but because of a vagina. That's it. Nothing more. Don't act like it was about all the other shit you want to make this into. How isn't that sexist as fuck? How isn't that the exact type of mentality that you have a problem with? Imagine for a second if the point being made by Obama was, men have been in charge for good reason, because men being in charge is innately good and if women were in charge it would be bad. That's literally the point he is trying to make but in reverse.
Regarding, " What I'm saying is that it reflects our society in that old white men are vastly statistically over represented in congress in relation to how the country looks like." Realize that isn't the point being made in the question. Realize the point being made was, Obama thinks women should be in charge not because of stats or because they aren't represented... they should be in charge because of a vagina. That's it. That was the point being made. Stop trying to make it into something that it wasn't.
Listen to the question again and the point Obama was making in it. And stop trying to make it into something it wasn't. It was garbage.
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Sandy regarding, "not realistic," We have a Republican President, the Republicans control the house and senate, and the democrats are all corporation sellouts. Nothing that is worth a shit is realistic these days, in part because these "representatives" are happy to use the revolving door to make themselves rich.
Regarding, "they make millions" Give ex presidents 1 mil a year and if they are not happy with that then they can go ahead and not run for the job going forward.
Regarding, "citizens united is the issue" This is a huge part of the problem but it is hardly the only problem with money in politics. Money in politics was a problem before this... after it is worse thou.
Sandy regarding, "public financing" We have it... just not the way it should be.
Regarding, "2 mos campaign" I think campaign season is way too long but this sounds like an over-correction in my opinion. That said we definitely agree it is too long currently.
Regarding, "rank choice voting" This is a no brainer and is desperately needed. I'm not sure it is any more realistic that what I proposed... again you have to consider the powers that be these days. They are not going to let anything good like this happen either. Still I am happy you mentioned it and I'm not going to call it unrealistic other than to make a point about your statement of me being unrealistic.
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@Livemem Regarding, "starting out a conversation by calling me a "dipshit" is not going to make me say, "hmm maybe he's right"" Yup. It doesn't make for a very compelling argument. Ultimately I'm a human being who is crazy frustrated with stupid arguments such as yours. If only trump supporters understood that a presidential candidate needs to have experience and a record and maybe he wouldn't be in office. But here we are and it pisses me off. Sorry not sorry if the truth hurts and I find everything you have to say really fucking stupid. I know this isn't a good tactically but people like you piss me off and I'm venting because you deserve it. I do the same shit with flat earthers for the same reasons and even their stupidity isn't as dangerous for the world as yours is because here we are talking about the upcoming election and the future of the country and the world.
And maybe, just maybe another person who is thinking that yang is a good idea might read what I wrote, not take it so personally, and come to their senses. Truly intellectually honest people, even when being insulted, are capable of compartmentalizing things, not taking it personal, and are still able to listen to substance. But they are rare and it isn't surprising you are one of them.
Regarding, "I have the right to be just as angry at YOU for not understanding why you would stop everyone from getting $1000 a month" How do you know I'm opposed to this? I haven't even talked about it. I'm talking about trust and how and why it is earned. I'm talking about the things you should be thinking about when determining if someone is legit or a snake oil salesmen. Shit... I could come out today running on 2K a month but that doesn't mean shit because I have done as much as yang has to earn your trust other than he doesn't curse like a sailor, not that that has anything to do with trust.
I'm interested in UBI. I really am even if not entirely convinced. But first we need to overhaul the entire system first. We need to make sure that if we gave everyone money it isn't just going to all go to the top the way it already is. But I have ZERO interest in supporting a candidate who has no experience in politics and no record to confirm or deny they are going to fight for the things they claim. It makes no fucking sense in a world where you damn well should know that politicians are rightfully known to be great liars. Especially when we do have a person that has demonstrated that they are going to fight for the things they talk about while in office.
Regarding, "I personally have no problem with Bernie, but Yang just has a better way to get there." I personally do have a problem with Yang. The arrogance to think he has any right to run. The fact that his campaign is splitting progressive support and making it more likely an establishment fuck like Biden wins is unacceptable. I don't have time or patience for his arrogance and stupidity in a world that desperately needs change.
Regarding, "the way you speak to people, you are only helping to drive people AWAY from Bernie's campaign." This is certainly the least stupid thing you have said but I'm human and we are talking about: millions without health care, perpetual war, education, money in politics, the minimum wage, mass incarceration, the environment and so much more. If you can't understand why and where passion comes from when those are the topics I question your humanity.
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@jonsmith9838 Regarding, "bernie would if had to..." So now that I've proven myself correct you think the goalpost should be moved? I used the words mathematically capable for a reason. Did you not understand what those words meant while I was saying them?
Regarding, "Warren had such as much mathematical likely good if not more." I suspect your point is as terrible as the words you used for it.
Regarding, "your acting like she wrong" Because she obviously is. She is right when she says most votes wins. It's just that she only says it when politically convenient. Why aren't you acting like she is wrong when she says the most votes at the end shouldn't necessarily win?
Regarding, "he right when there pulling the same tactics" They aren't the same tactics. If they were the same tactics Sanders would have fought after all the peasants cast their ballots and he had less votes at the end. HE DIDN'T DO THAT. That's what Warren and team anti democracy think is ok. And that's clearly not what he did. Apples and oranges whether you realize it or not.
Regarding, "he knew he couldn't get that" I showed how he was mathematically capable of finishing with HUNDREDS of more pledged delegates going into the very last day. After an entire election where the playing field was being tipped. Even if he thought he couldn't get them he was running through the finish line the way runners are taught to.
No matter all your words the fact remains that: Sanders actions were DURING a primary. Warrens plan is for AFTER a primary. World of difference you are ignoring. I really hope it isn't intentionally and disingenuous. I've given you respect and time I haven't for the other clown. I hope that wasn't me being foolish.
Regarding, "she was betrayed as inevitable because the polls and that she was nearly always ahead even without the superdelegates." You mean exactly like it was for Biden in 2020 while he kept not winning? Turns out Biden wasn't inevitable nor was Hillary. But that's what you are told to manufacture consent for terrible people. Chuck Todd did want to give sanders credit for being one of the top contenders much less the front runner even after winning the first two primaries. This is done for a reason and that reason isn't honest.
Regarding, "he really really had no argument after California." Yeah. No shit sherlock. Remember you said this. The establishment won't have much of an argument if they try to take the nomination from Sanders at a contested convention. Make sure you think and say the same about them should it happen.
Regarding, "not going to give him a trophy for not being insane" Like you are seemingly doing for warren at the moment?
Regarding, "I got my own principles to. think every votes matter." and "think whoever's get the most votes win. that wss true now and true in 2016" Which is what Sanders has been saying since the beginning of time. Superdelegates aren't his idea. He has always been opposed to them. But if they are busy tipping the scale of an election he is in the midst of he is going to fight for them and that isn't hypocrisy.
Regarding, "think the electoral collage suck" Do you? Does that mean that if you ran for president you wouldn't try to win the EC like a sane person? If you tried to win the EC would this statement then make you a hypocrite the way you seem to think Sanders is being hypocritical? Would you instead ignore the EC and try to win the popular vote because that's how you think things should be?
Regarding, "not going to act like that not the system" Oh right. That's what you would do. That's what Sanders does on the topic of superdelegates while you are baffled by it, struggle to understand it, and mislabel it.
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@jonsmith9838 Regarding, "well first off your assuming again." You are assuming I'm assuming. Maybe just address what I'm saying instead of what you think I'm thinking.
Regarding, "assuming that I want to take it from Sanders." I was assuming the opposite actually because you said things like the most votes should win.
Regarding, "and assuming I'm a lady." I was assuming the opposite. I assume people named jon are men. This is also crazy irrelevant and my problem with addressing this is two fold as I typed this, lost it, and am typing it again for no good reason.
Regarding, "i want sanders to win..." Good. That said it's not relevant to the conversation at hand. The conversation at hand is Sanders actions in 2016 and if they are consistent with his words. And they are.
Regarding, "he had no argument at that point because he was massively behind on ever level" He did. Do you even know what his argument was at the time while you dismiss it this way?
Regarding, "he did argue even if Hillary had more delecates the superdelegates job to pick the best canidate. so yes he was talking about going near the end at that point. that's fact." So all you need to do to tell the truth is ignore other facts... He never fought for superdelegates when the primary was ongoing. "near the end" is not at the end. I know you want to ignore the distinction but it matters for intellectually honest people.
Regarding, "bravo he gets a trophy." You dismiss this as obvious and common sense by sanders still it's not the parties plan if roles are reversed. They are dead set on a contested convention, stealing the nomination, and fighting for someone with less votes AT. THE. END.
I'm way done with this. I've wasted far too much time addressing you. You want to reinvent history and make the end a time different than it was.... just like the corporate media did when they called the election when nobody was voting. California is a state large enough to be an independent nation but fuck their votes. It was already over despite not being over.
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Planet regarding, "That old bag should be hung for treason." I don't believe in the death penalty. I'd be happy if she spent the rest of her life in prison thou.
Regarding, "Hillary / dnc cheated the entire primary." There is literally nothing she wouldn't have done to win. And the DNC would have rather lost to Trump than lose to Bernie. (and if you agree with that you must realize that that is because they know Bernie is a threat to them)
Regarding, "To support someone who cheated us of our democracy is too much." and "How could bern support everything he stands against?" and "How could he support the person that cheated us?"
If you want to disagree with actions I can understand that and respect that. What I can't respect is a misguided notion that he did what he did as a "sell-out." When entering the primary he agreed that he would endorse the winner at the end. Sanders is the type of person who will go out of his way to do what he promises he will. That said you can say the DNC broke their agreement with him so he would have been justified in breaking his agreement with them and I would wholeheartedly agree. He didn't. And even if I very much question his decision I don't have that much trouble understanding it.
Would you want to be blamed for President Trump? I sure as fuck wouldn't. He is all the corruption and terrible of Hillary but with the added bonus of in your face racism.
He, pretty much everyone in the country, played the game of who do you prefer? A douche or a turd sandwhich. He picked the douche and didn't want to be blamed for the turd sandwhich. I fucking hated it at the time but I get it.
And forget for a moment what that decision made meant to the presidential election but consider what it meant for Sanders ability to affect policy going forward. Remember that he and I fucking love policy. That is really what it is all about. He doesn't do it for himself. He doesn't do it to be loved. He does it because he wants to make people lives better. And even if you might disagree with his decision the bottom line is that he made an impossible decision because sucking up his pride and doing something I don't think I would have been able to do because that decision was the difference in him being able to effectively push for medicare for all, and increasing the minimum wage, and all the other policies he cares about.
Because he did what he did he is currently the most popular politician in the country and that gives him the ability to fight more effectively for the things we care about. Do you think that would be the case if he didn't do what he did? If he were effectively blamed for Trump being president?
And Hillary and company still tried and are trying to blame him but, because he didn't give them ammunition to do so, even hillbots have an impossible time defending the fallen queen when she tried to blame Bernie.
Regarding, "I can't be ok with a system that gives us trump/hillary." Don't think that I am. That is a fucking joke.
Regarding, "He had the momentum to run 3rd party and do well." You want to question his decision to not do so that is fine. I get that and respect that. Have you seen the movie "half baked?" I wanted him to go to the convention and get up on stage and say, "fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're cool, fuck you, I'm out and running with the green party."
He didn't and we will never know for sure how he would have done in a 3 way race. He certainly would have been fighting an uphill battle although I think he may have been able to win. That said this would have been a yuuugge risk...
Getting the most electoral college votes wouldn't have been enough, it would have taken a majority of electoral college votes to win. If he doesn't win Trump definitely wins. If Trump definitely wins Bernie is definitely blamed and, unlike now, they would have been successful at blaming him. Not only would his career had been essentially over at that point but the movement he started would have suffered a DEVASTATING blow.
And even if he wins he likely is able achieve almost nothing in terms of legislation. Both major parties would oppose and obstruct everything he would have tried to do and they would work to just run the clock out til he is gone and then try to go back to business as usual after he is out.
Regarding, "Supporting lesser of two evils gets us what we got today. That's y we r here. Supporting lesser of two evils is supporting evil. I refuse to support evil." I agree with all this. I happily voted for Jill Stein and will look again to the green party if the dems succeed in forcing through a corporate shill in 2020.
But Bernie in 2020 gives us the best chance we have at actually getting a progressive in the WH. Not only that but winning as a dem, and not as green or 3rd party would be so much better. The nominee of the party has crazy power to reform the party, shape the party, and pick the people in it. Part of the reason the dems currently suck as much as they do and will continue to do so until 2020 is because Hillary "won" the nomination. That is why there was Perez. Then Perez got to pick the pick under him who picked the people under them and so on. But corporate dems could be purged just the same way progressives were recently purged from the party.
Sanders is the best hope for what we want. In 2016 he was down 50 points to Hillary when he started and only lost because he was cheated. In 2020 he will be the most popular politician in the country with the name recognition of a rock star. The establishment knows this. They fear him. You can tell by watching all their actions. If he was on their side they wouldn't be working 24/7 to try to discredit and smear him with every dirty tactic they have.
I literally wonder and wouldn't be surprised if Chris were just shill paid to smear Sanders. Maybe not. Maybe he is just a useful idiot. But if he isn't that is a tactic they will use against him because they will do anything and everything to stop him.
For the sake of the country lets hope they don't succeed.
Peace.
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Planet regarding, "give u specifics" Ok. That's your call but in my opinion that is pretty lazy and weak. I mean, don't get me wrong, I think there is a time and place for insults and no need to justify them (my original comment in this thread was exactly that), but I think doing so is almost never justified.
Regarding, "The only reason I said ur arguments were retarded..." Specifically in my original response to you I think I was not very rude at all. There were no personal attacks at all. The closest that can be said was that I attack an argument of yours and told you exactly why I thought what I did.
Regarding, "I normally avoid personal attacks." You do realize where I got most pissed at you right? "Sounds like ur the hillary fan to me." That is pretty much a personal attack to me. I fucking hate Hillary and did not appreciate you saying that in the least. Not only do I find it insulting but I think that you saying it was not, at all, justified. I had been talking exclusively about Sanders except for one comment about Hillary where I actually insult her. Me saying, "If you wanted a candidate who would do anything and everything to win then I'm sure you loved Hillary and company," was clearly done in a disparaging manner and then you were calling me a Hillary fan. How do you like it when people call you a Hillary fan? Because I am not a fan of that.
Regarding, "I normally avoid personal attacks, stick with issues." Telling me I'm making bad arguments but not bothering to say why seems to contradict this.
Regarding, "death penalty" I'm not looking to debate the death penalty here but the fact of the matter is that I'm opposed to it from a principled position that I think killing people is wrong when there is another option. I make no exceptions to this belief even for the people I think deserve it the most.
Regarding, "this entire debate seems like a waist of both our time" If you don't want to talk that is fine. I am genuinely interested why you would say "a lot of ur arguments are self contradictory" if you feel like elaborating because I am genuinely interested in what you have to say unlike Chris. But if you don't you don't.
Regarding, "Bern did things that I question." Of course. Me too. That is only natural. The guy has been in government for a long, long time so it only makes sense that there have been decisions that he has made that someone is going to question but you need to look at the big picture in my opinion. Even if there have been areas I disagree with him ultimately I think questioning whether or not he is actually progressive or whether he is fighting against corporate democrats or for them is quite obvious. I expect the establishment is going to try and use this area specifically to thwart him. I worry many will fall for the tactic because the public is right to be skeptical of everyone that is a politician.
Regarding, "if he makes it through the primary he'll have my vote." I hope he has your vote before that. I believe that, by far, the most important election in 2020 isn't going to be the general election but rather the "democratic" primary.
Regarding, "If u don't find any of berns actions questionable that's up to u." I'm pretty sure I've given examples of decisions I question of his. I also think it is logical that progressives can agree on goals they want to achieve and have different ideas about the best way to get those things but ultimately we are still on the same team.
Regarding, "Maybe at this point we could at least agree to disagree." Again if you are going to respond to anything I would ask it would be why made that one statement but even if you don't I wish you well.
If you were insulted by anything I said I apologize. I can be a straight super dick at times (see comments to chris for examples) but that really wasn't my intent with you at all other than me getting pissed about being called a hillary supporter.
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Daniel regarding, "But when I said single thing about money, I mean that obviously money, greed and power are incentives for war." You mean something like this...?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1O5vJRSGHY
What the fuck man. I'm here to piss on Maher and you have me defending him. The thing is is that no matter how much I want to piss on him I'm not about to lie to do it.
Regarding, "Those things (one in the same) that exist regardless of religion" Maybe they "exist regardless of religion" but if you think religion isn't interested in money, greed, and power then you aren't paying attention and those that seek money, greed, and power use religion to achieve those goals.
Regarding, "I would disagree on the motive being religious." I never said the "motive" is religion. It isn't. But those wars are JUSTIFIED largely through religion. It isn't the only bullshit they use of course. There is also WMD bullshit and others but religion is one of the ways they are able to justify the unjustifiable. That was what I was saying and it is absolutely true.
If that oil was in white Christian nations this shit would never be happening. PERIOD. Please don't even try to claim otherwise.
Regarding, "It's also important to note that the U.S. does sanctions that are not muslim and are predominantly christian" No. Its really not important. This is not a conversation about countries we sanction. This is about countries we drop bombs in. That is too big of a distinction to make this point "important."
Again to be clear I'm not saying the powers that be care first and foremost about religion. You are correct that it is about money. But the powers that be use religion to get what they want. It is a way they are able to divide people. To make them less important and less than themselves so that when they lose their lives it isn't such a big deal.
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Regarding, "Clearly you're the Maher buff" That's just it, I'm not. I used to watch him all the time back in the day when I had HBO but that is YEARS ago. That didn't stop me from being about to fact check your statement and prove it wrong in less than 2 minutes.
Regarding, "I don't remember Bush saying..." He doesn't need to say it. I'm talking about people who don't question their god committing mass genocide by wiping out the population of the Earth in a flood. I'm talking about people that think its fine that their god burn all the people that don't believe in their god in hellfire for all eternity. These are people that have been trained to think irrationally and they don't require good reasons to kill those people because they are not like them. A few thousand people dying on 9-11 are super important. A hundred thousand people dying elsewhere not as much. Why? In large part because of religion. They don't identify with them so they don't need to be "sold." They just accept it. That is how I mean that it is justified to them. I'm talking about the state of mind of Americans, not about the rhetoric of politicians. But your misinterpretation of my thoughts was fair before I hopefully just clarified my meaning.
Regarding, "I think there are other factors besides..." I am very careful to parse my words. I never say that religion is the only reason this shit happens but rather that it is a huge factor. So huge that at the end of the day it is make or break. It is very often the difference between war and peace.
Regarding, "I think you're purposely misreading my arguments." Do you? I'm not. I think I just disagree with your ideas that Maher hasn't changed and that religion isn't a huge factor when it comes to war.
Regarding, "I'm just saying that they started the Iraq war because..." That is not the only thing you are saying. If that was the only thing you were saying I wouldn't be disagreeing with you about anything. I agree with this. My point is that if Iraq were a christian nation then regardless of all this, war never happens. As you point out Canada has lots of oil. Do you think America could go to war with them to get it in the same way? Because they can't and this is, in large part but obviously not exclusively because of religion.
Regarding, "I just pointed out that Maher scapegoats religion as problem #1, I just simply disagree with that type of rhetoric." I don't remember him making a list and putting religion number one. Rather I do remember him talking about how religion fucking sucks and how it is detrimental to the world. I agree with all this. That doesn't mean that I don't think money isn't the driving force for the military industrial complex because it is. Those ideas can coexist and are not exclusive.
I rail against religion all the time. Hopefully you don't interpret that to mean that I'm also "scapegoating them" and not saying that there are other factors going on in an obviously complex world because I'm not. Save that term for places where it is deserved. For example Hillary Clinton and Bill Maher (I'm pretty sure but don't quote me on him exactly as again I don't really watch him anymore) scapegoats Bernie Sanders, and Russia, and sexism for her loss.
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@sandybathwater8385 Regarding, "I can tell there is decency in him" We have to agree to disagree about this. Lies about being in civil rights, lies about being arrested with mandela, lies about NAACP endorsements, lies about his record and anything else he think will help him politically.
To put it another way, "don't lie to yourselves, chuds, you know he doesn't give a damn about you." Or at least you shouldn't. He has been on the wrong side of EVERY important vote. War, the patriot act, corporate socialism, the drug war, militarized police, repealing glass steagal, and so much more.
Regarding, "this isn't directed at you" Maybe not but I thought I should address it.
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@IMSiegfried Regarding, "Huh? How so?" Really? Do you even attempt to read what I write? Or does acting willfully ignorant really not bother you?
Regarding, "You haven't named one good thing trump has done." It's not about this. It's about who is in the drivers seat to take the WH in 2024. With trump a true progressive is potentially next. With Biden the next trump is potentially next. It really is that simply while you don't get it.
Regarding, " I do not understand your logic." I'm ok with that. You don't seem to understand much.
Regarding, "we have no idea what the board will look like in 4 years." No idea? Really? The virus is ongoing. No idea. People don't have jobs. No idea. A corrupt government. No idea. Were you born yesterday? If so then, and only then, should you have "no idea."
Regarding, "You also think that Biden will be exactly like Obama was 2008." I actually think will will be far worse as POTUS. Obamas brain wasn't melting while he was in office afterall.
Regarding, "it's now 2020 meaning you can't ever go back to where you were before and Biden is not Obama." Thanks capatin obvious. I had no idea.
Regarding, "Trump is.." God forbid a biden supporter didn't deflect by mentioning trump.
Regarding, "Biden at least has a soul." That guy who would say anything for political gain? He has a soul? Are you sure he didn't give it to the devil so that his lies about working in civil rights, about being arrested with mandela, about being endorsed by the NAACP and more doesn't affect him the way it would in any sort of sane world?
Regarding, "Our country is sitting on the edge of a cliff." Thanks to people like Biden. Not in spite of him.
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Joel regarding, "Pence is quiet" Why exactly should I care how loud or quiet a psycho is?
Regarding, "(Pence is) sane." Hahahahaha. Do you actually know anything about the guy you are talking about? The guy is a religious zealot whose priorities include taking away a womens right to choose persecuting the lgbt community. He is at least as bad as trump on ALL important issues. The environment, education, trade, guns, and more he is practically indistinguishable from trump when it comes to policy... that thing I mentioned all that time ago that you have never bothered to address.
And the fact that you don't seem to understand how terrible Pence is only helps prove my case for me. I would actually prefer Trump over Pence because sheep like you are easily put to sleep as long as terrible policy is wrapped in sweet talk.
Feel free to correct me but I'm confident you fucking love Obama don't you. Nevermind that he more than doubled the number of wars we are in, nevermind that he persecuted whistleblowers and journalists, nevermind that he set record deportations, nevermind that his signature piece of legislation was a Republican health care plan, nevermind that his failure helped give us trump... you fucking love him don't you. Because while he fucked over the people of this country he did it while not being offensive.
I need people like you to stay pissed and angry at our government because I know that you are all too willing to go to sleep because you are a fucking sheep easily put to sleep.
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Regarding, "I'm not here to be your scapegoat," I'd ask what the fuck you are talking about here if I actually cared.
Regarding, "I voted for Ralph Nader in 1999" So did I. I guess I haven't brought it because it is totally fucking irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
Regarding, "Fuck Obama" Well... I'm not going to pretend to be perfect. I am genuinely shocked at this. Good for you.
Regarding, "he's quiet so he's not going to piss off every world leader" And why exactly shouldn't ever world leader be pissed at us? THEY SHOULD BE PISSED AT US. And if their priorities are so fucked up that they care more about the president's twitter habits then his actual actions then they are just as fucked up and absurd as you on the topic.
Regarding, "He's sane so he won't say shit.on tv like he can pardon himself" Jesus fucking christ. When I think about the problems this world is facing and the fact that you consider trump saying something stupid that has no real world effects what-so-ever as being important I want to throw up in my mouth. Then you again you immediately discredit your own point 2 seconds later when accurately saying, "NOBODY takes him seriously." Either nobody takes him seriously (which is true, at least when it comes to the sane) or I need to piss myself when he says something dumb. Those 2 things can't coexist simultaneously.
Regarding, "BTW, I'm the founder..." Cool for you. I am amused that you think this makes you saying stupid shit anymore relevant. But it really isn't about that is it. You just want to jerk off to your own ego. Fucking pathetic.
Regarding, "get on board with a man of the people working for real change?" Are you fucking retarded. Literally the only thing I've been addressing is your desire to make Pence president. Is that your "man of the people working for real change?" Because that is what I've been talking about despite your desperate desire to change the conversation from that.
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@tadem3886 Regarding, "i think im starting to understand why so many Bernie supporters fear Yang." Progressives are shat upon by the establishment. They will do anything and everything to fuck us over and stop us from having power. Sanders was fucked over in 2016. Yeah... I fear Sanders is going to lose, fear for the country, and fear for the future.
Do you at least start to understand why trust is important? And why your guy doesn't deserve it? Are you going to try and intelligently address any of the points I'm making? Or are you just going to dismiss them?
Regarding, "My support for yang comes from mainly because of UBI." No shit. Thanks for actually being intellectually honest about it. So many of his supporters pretend like it's about something else but ultimately people are just being bribed to support him, nevermind the fact that you have no reason to trust him and have no reason to think UBI would pass even if he were elected.
Regarding, "There is nothing that Bernie has proposed that would make a more fundamental and immediate improvement in my life like a UBI would." Sanders is about M4A, education, ending war, raising the minimum wage, breaking up the banks, protecting the environment, getting money out of politics and so much more and he can actually be trusted on all these issues but fuck that cause you're being bribed. You might have a future in politics with that.
Regarding, "If Bernie announced tomorrow a policy for 1k a month ubi i would change my support to Bernie" Nevermind. Fuck Bernie. I've seen the light. I'm going to run. I'm offering you 2K a month. Unless you want more. Cause I'll tell you more if you want. And you have just as much reason to trust me as you do yang.
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