Comments by "afcgeo" (@afcgeo882) on "The Car Care Nut"
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Well… you didn’t account for anything else that’s likely to break on a high mileage car, including engine, cooling, exhaust, suspension, steering and HVAC components. A new car would have none of those costs. A head gasket repair alone will set you back another $2k easily.
130k miles doesn’t sound like much to most Toyota owners, but this is a big city car. It’s a Chicago car. That means many times more wear and tear, per mile, than the average. This car is over 15 years old, so major corrosion issues. Things like engine mounts, steering rack, door mounts, seat mounts, interior panels, gear shifter, switches, etc will all have much more wear because this car makes a lot more trips to get to its 130k mileage. An average trip for this car is likely around 10 miles. So those components see a lot more use. An average big city car starts seeing lots of problems around 100-125k miles, even a Toyota.
That means the ACTUAL cost per mile on that Camry is likely to be 4-5 times higher than 5.8 cents/mile.
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I appreciate your opinion, but it’s absolute, mindless horse shit, sorry. Whether you want to call it in Japanese (kaizen) or English (evolution), continuous improvement isn’t a uniquely Toyota concept. In fact, ALL vehicle manufacturers, and all manufacturers in general, use it. Every engineer and developer bases designs on past lessons. Kaizen is a term for “lean manufacturing.”
When someone says “I’ve been working exclusively for one employer”, please understand that that person has only one single perspective and may be exhibiting what’s known as the Stockholm Syndrome.
Look, I drive a Toyota. In fact, both my new cars have been Toyotas. I believe Toyotas are a good value and fit my driving style well. That said, their FACTUAL (statistical) reliability is just above average and they have been getting worse with complexity and cost cutting over the years (as have most other manufacturers).
There are things they do very well and always have (electricals, hybrid drivetrain, metallurgy). There are things they’ve really improved on in the last decade (engines, suspensions and AWD) and there are things they’ve really crapped out on lately (steering, technology, infotainment, paint and transmissions).
Despite all that, having an employee tell us corporate tales of culture is honestly gross. It feels like listening to a cult member. Believe me, Toyota isn’t that special. They make good cars, overall, but they are not industry leaders in anything at all and they’re not incredibly concerned about their customers.
Case in point: although I own a 2021 Rav4 Hybrid and live in NYC where I do frequent short trips (mostly) and have cold winters (relatively), and Toyota’s own recommendation to change the oil every 5,000 miles, Toyota has REFUSED to pay for it via Toyota Care. They simply said they would, if the technician would determine an oil change is needed. 😂 Which is of course impossible without a chemical test or absolute self-destruction of the engine. I had two very long conversations with supervisors on the phone and caught BOTH flat out lying and back pedaling. When I had the service manager listen on the speaker, he just shook his head and gave me a free oil change because Toyota basically said, “Yes, the contract says you’re entitled. No, we won’t pay.” That is today’s Toyota. Three people at Customer Care said this, including two supervisors.
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What a great question! Absolutely, if you aren’t abusing the car/engine, use a good oil (synthetic) and filter then yes, extend those changes (after break-in).
Countless laboratory tests have shown no significant oil degradation even at 15k miles (full synth). In the end, oil cools and lubricates and if those chemical properties are still in tact, and the particulates are low (effect of a good filter), you don’t need to change it. That said, for the first 2 years/25k miles, I’d still do 5k in city or 10k hwy changes, full synthetic, because particulates shed off new engines like crazy during break-in. After that, bump them up. I’d go to 10k city/towing, 15k hwy changes.
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@7aramkeda334 Yeah... you were LIED to. Service managers’ primary job is to sell you services. They’re not engineers or mechanics. They’re literally sales people.
Car manufacturers, decades ago, used to add heavy mineralized oil to speed up the break-in process by having light corrosives in the system. They would basically file down all the imperfections on surfaces. They were supposed to be left in the system, up to 3,000 miles, which is what recommended oil change intervals used to be. During that time, specific break-in protocols had to followed.
That stopped in the 80s and 90s. Today, machined parts are coated in a special lubricant upon assembly, and regular motor oil is added to the system. The machining of the parts is FAR better and the quantity and size of contaminating particulates far smaller. Manufacturers no longer ask for a break-in process because it’s no longer necessary. Just do the oil changes on time and use high quality oil and filters. Don’t skimp on them. Your first oil change at 10k miles will be perfectly good. If you want piece of mind, take an oil sample early and send it out for a test. It’s cheap and enlightening. https://www.blackstone-labs.com/?session-id=wtjb5y55hxmmh3mp3qbd2z45&timeout=20&bslauth&urlbase=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blackstone-labs.net%2FBstone%2F%28S%28wtjb5y55hxmmh3mp3qbd2z45%29%29%2F
Then do a test at 10k miles, right before an oil change. You’ll see how it really is. Don’t trust mechanics or sales reps. Trust science!
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@rodneybooth4069 Dana makes frames to the manufacturers’ designs, not their own. Also, if it had been, it would have been a party to the class action suit “Brian Warner et al. v. Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc”, which it wasn’t. Toyota settled it and paid for the replacements. http://www.toyotaframesettlement.com/
The worst part is that Toyota denied all claims of this frame issue for about 15 years and then fought in court for two more until settling. That’s the real Toyota way.
My biggest issues aren’t design or manufacturing mistakes. Those happen to everyone. My issue is how the company deals with them. My other issue is that if you maintain your Toyota the way the company tells you to, it won’t see 100k on the odometer. My Rav4 Hybrid, according to the company, needs 10k oil changes, no transmission or differential fluid changes and its hybrid battery filter needs no checking or cleaning, though the cabin air filter certainly does. This all while the dealership techs say 5,000 oil changes, 50k diff and tranny fluid changes and constant hybrid battery filter cleaning. All are systems that are CRITICAL. That’s what Toyota is. They even gave their Tundras a sealed transmission. Tundras! They are 4x4 and tow! Did you know that Toyota cheated on EPA fuel economy tests and was caught back in the 1990’s and fined $180 million for not reporting emissions failures from 2005 to 2015? Apparently the Japanese employees knew, but ignored the issue.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/amp35226937/toyota-fine-clean-air-act-violation/
I’m not implying others haven’t. Not at all. I’m saying Toyota’s just as bad.
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@NateTrynaMakeMoney What do you want to see? Reliability figures? Here, READ!
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-us-vehicle-dependability-study
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-us-vehicle-dependability-study
https://repairpal.com/reliability
The reality is that for the first three years of ownership, the reliability percentage (how many cars present some failure) varies from 92% for the worst and 98% for the best brand sold, with the bulk of cars being in the 94-96 percentile. That means they’re all basically the same as it all falls into the statistical margin of error.
The other reality is that because there are countless variables that impact cars, how they’re used and their owners, there are no very long-term reliability studies on cars, as it’s impossible to do AND… you can’t do a 10 year study on a current year car, can you?
So we go by the studies we have, and if you follow them, long-term, you can extrapolate some conclusions - that the car manufacturing world is dynamic and each model varies from another, that if you generalize you’re being stupid and that things change, not every century, but every year.
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@moose354 I think YOU missed the point. He says to do it EARLIER than on time during break-in, but then defaults to Toyota recommendations, which makes zero sense. He was trained by Toyota to pitch their logic instead of relying on engineering and science. My driving is 90% city. I mean REAL city, stop and go. I live in NYC. Every single car I’ve owned before said 3,000 miles (defaulting to organic oil) in city, mountains, towing or dirty environment. My 2005 Camry just said “5,000”. My 2021 Rav4 hybrid says “10,000”. Meanwhile those same cars with those same engines have other distances listed in other countries. Urban driving isn’t even listed as a reason to do more frequent changes in the Toyota manuals. Why?
Toyota capriciously placed arbitrary figures that have NOTHING to do with real world maintenance. Then they said, organic or synthetic oils are the same. That’s a lie too.
The truth is that whatever your oil is, you need to clean the system out soon after getting the car, but you need time to first let the engine shed the extra metal debris. Ideally, 2500 miles, then 5000 miles. Factory oil is organic. I would stick to Toyota organic at those changes. Then, I would do a change at 10,000, but now full synthetic and high grade filter. At that point, I would switch to 10k intervals with top end oil/filter. That’s with city driving.
I ran my Camry ran on Mobil 1 oil and filters for 15 years (after 1 year of 3,000 mile organic changes) and I changed those every 6,000 miles. I had the oil lab tested twice. Once at 6,000 miles, with 50k on the odometer. It was well within tolerances, with low contaminants. Then I ran 7500 miles with 90k on the odometer and again, it was well within tolerances, but getting close to needing to be changed. So... in NYC driving, that old 4-cyl Camry could do 8,000 mile intervals, safely.
Given the nature of my hybrid (that the engine runs only about 50% of the time, mostly when I’m driving faster), there is no reason to do 5,000 mile oil changes after initial break in, with synthetic oil. It’s just money down the drain.
Does Toyota want to get into that so technically? No, of course not. Every person’s experience is a bit different, so they just make up a number from the top of their heads, mostly relying on Toyota Care costs, to keep them down, and to create future warranty claim denials. All manufacturers do this.
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