Comments by "Old Scientist" (@OldScientist) on "DW News"
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Even if there is radical climate change (and that is a very, very big 'if') with the manifestation of numerous tipping points (including permafrost thaw, ocean hydrates dissociation, Arctic sea ice loss, rainforest dieback, polar ice sheet loss, AMOC slowdown, and Indian monsoon variability) the disruption to economic growth and well-being will be minimal. The world's economy will continue to grow making everyone much richer. By 2050 world mean consumption per capita should be $29,100 with tipping points or $29,300 without tipping points. Barely noticeable. Apart from it being approximately double what it is now. By 2100 world mean consumption per capita should be $71,000 with or without tipping points (Dietz et al, 2021).
This is the most fortunate time to be alive in the whole of history.
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@abody499 The Greenland Ice Sheet contains about 2.9 million cubic kilometers of ice (NSIDC). Using the formula M=Vd (and assuming density of glacier ice 0.9167 Gt/km³), the mass of GrIS is approximately 2.7 million Gt.
If we use the figure of annual loss of 270 Gt, we get 0.01%, or 10,000 years, so around 12,024 AD.
The problem is the average figure of 270 Gt (NASA data 2002-2023, 0.8mm/year sea-level rise, so a non-problem). That average value and the data range used gives no understanding of the changes taking place. Prior to 2000 GrIS was not losing mass. From 2002 to 2012 mass loss accelerated, then from 2012 to the present mass loss trend decelerated (85 Gt, 2021). The changes aren't linear they are sinusoidal and are related to the North Atlantic Oscillation, not the the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere.
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@abody499 Antarctic ice sheet (1992-2020) annual loss was 90Gt/yr. It's total mass is 24,380,000 Gt (24380000000000000 tons), so it loses less than 0.0004% of its mass annually, which I think you could reasonably round down to zero. It contributes 0.36mm to sea-level rise per year (that's essentially nothing as well). At the current rate it will take well over ¼ million years to melt, but we are due for two more glacial periods in that time. That ice is here to stay.
There's a bit of a problem with the accelerating ice loss in Antarctica idea. It's not accelerating. If you want to dig down to the actual data, that is. Just so we're clear, I'm referring to the paper entitled "Mass balance of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets from 1992 to 2020" by Otosaka et al, 2023. Can I direct you to table 2, and the text below it?
If we include the APIS in "continental" (although I wouldn't) there's no pattern with a slight loss overall - neglible. EAIS, by far the larger of the continent's ice caps, both by surface and volume, hasn't lost mass. It has gained mass, but again it's neglible. So that leaves us with WAIS. It's only WAIS that's driving the mass loss from Antarctica, and you can see that from the Figure 4 graph. Figure 4 and Table 2 show there is a step up in mass loss around 2007. You might want to call that an acceleration. However there's a deceleration from 2017 or at least a noticeable reduction in the rate of annual ice mass loss for the period 2017-2020 when compared to 2012-2016.
So accelerating then decelerating. The Antarctic Ice sheet is massive and it's never going to melt on the timescale of human civilisation.
Coming back to what we know though about Antarctica, you doomster cult followers have got a problem with Antarctica, haven't you? It's ice shelves are expanding by mass and volume, plus the continent has cooled very significantly in the past 40 years. But a small part (WAIS) of the ice cap is losing mass. Something is making the WAIS melt it would appear, and it cannot be the increasingly colder climate.
Maybe geothermal activity? Or maybe a change in wind direction from the Pacific? There's evidence for both. I don't know, but the climate has to warm for the ice to melt significantly and it isn't.
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@kurtilein3 In reality, "there have been statistically significant positive trends in total Antarctic sea ice extent since 1979." (Fogt et al, 2022. Published in Nature) "since 1979 is the only time all four seasons demonstrate significant increases in total Antarctic sea ice in the context of the twentieth century".
Antarctic sea ice extent was an unusual weather event dressed up as the end of the world. Antarctic sea ice was at a record maximum in 2015. No one mentioned that as part of a climate crisis.
The whole of East and West Antarctica is cooling, and has been for 40 years. East Antarctica has cooled by an impressive 0.7°C per decade. Resulting in an overall substantial and statistically significant decline of 2.8°C since 1980. So much for "Global" warming. I am referring to a paper by Zhu et al (2021) that looked at the reanalysed ERA5 satellite dataset. Check out table 4. Furthermore, the Antarctic Peninsula ice has since been shown to be on the increase “The eastern Antarctic Peninsula Ice Sheet has grown in area over the last 20 years, due to changing wind and sea ice patterns.” (University of Cambridge, May, 2022.)
"Overall, the Antarctic ice shelf area has grown by 5305 km² since 2009, with 18 ice shelves retreating and 16 larger shelves growing in area. Our observations show that Antarctic ice shelves gained 661 Gt of ice mass over the past decade." (Andreasen et al, 2023). It is from a paper entitled "Change in Antarctic Ice Shelf Area from 2009 to 2019". They use MODIS (Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer) satellite data to measure the change in ice shelf calving front position and area on 34 ice shelves in Antarctica from 2009 to 2019. Also, as the mass gain (661Gt) was given, you could calculate the volume of the ice gained using the formula: Volume = Mass ÷ Density (assume Density of glacier ice 0.9167 Gt/km³). This would give you (well not you obviously) an Ice Gain Volume ≈721km³. That's how much extra of the lovely white stuff there is around Antarctica. Imagine standing in the centre of this extra ice. It would stretch beyond the horizon in all directions and would be 45 storeys high.
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The IPCC AR6 report, chapter 11 'Weather and Climate Extreme Events in a Changing Climate' summarises the fact that severe weather events cannot be detected as increasing, nor attributed to human caused climate change:
Increased Flooding: not detected, no attribution.
Increased Meteorological Drought: not detected, no attribution.
Increased Hydrological Drought: not detected, no attribution.
Increased Tropical Cyclones: not detected, no attribution.
Increased Winter Storms: not detected, no attribution.
Increased Thunderstorms: not detected, no attribution.
Increased Hail: not detected, no attribution.
increased lightning: not detected, no attribution.
Increased Extreme Winds: not detected, no attribution.
There is no climate crisis.
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And I'm one. The retreat of Himalayan glaciers began before the current warming and was caused by reduced precipitation (Shekhar, 2017. Singh, 2020.). This supported by further work done by Schneider (2014), and Chen (2019). The retreat was due to a reduction in precipitation. Currently, precipitation is half of what it was 20 years previously. Research by Salerno (2015) "challenges the assumption of the main driver [i.e. temperature] of glacier mass changes".
Satellite data shows the glaciers in the Karakoram largely unaffected by current warming. Of 1219 glaciers surveyed, 79.5% were stable, 5.3% were advancing, and 7.6% retreating (Rankl, 2014).
Swiss Alps glacier extents were smaller than 2000 C.E. during the warmer-than-today Roman and Medieval Warm Periods and throughout 75% of the Holocene, or when temperatures were 1-3°C warmer (Schimmelpfennig et al., 2022).
Glaciologists Bohleber et al, 2020 of the Austrian Academy of Science discovered from ice cores that the 3500-meter high Weißseespitze summit was ice free 5900 years ago.
There is “no evidence” that Jostedalsbreen, a southern Norway glacier, even existed during the first several thousand years of the Holocene, or when CO2 hovered near 260 ppm (Winker, 2021).
There is no objective observational evidence that we are living in a global climate crisis. Glacial retreat is certainly not evidence of this.
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@AA-vi1cc There's a bit of a problem with the "accelerating continental ice loss in Antarctica" position. It's not accelerating. If you want to dig down to the actual data, that is. Just so we're clear, I'm referring to the paper entitled "Mass balance of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets from 1992 to 2020" by Otosaka et al, 2023. Can I direct you to table 2, and the text below it?
If we include the APIS in "continental" (although I wouldn't) there's no pattern with a slight loss overall - neglible. EAIS, by far the larger of the continent's ice caps, both by surface and volume, hasn't lost mass. It has gained mass, but again it's neglible. So that leaves us with WAIS. It's only WAIS that's driving the mass loss from Antarctica, and you can see that from the Figure 4 graph. Figure 4 and Table 2 show there is a step up in mass loss around 2007. You might want to call that an acceleration. However there's a deceleration from 2017 or at least a noticeable reduction in the rate of annual ice mass loss for the period 2017-2020 when compared to 2012-2016.
So accelerating then decelerating. The Antarctic Ice sheet is massive and it's never going to melt on the timescale of human civilisation.
Coming back to what we know though about Antarctica, you doomster cult followers have got a problem with Antarctica, haven't you? It's ice shelves are expanding by mass and volume, plus the continent has cooled very significantly in the past 40 years. But a small part (WAIS) of the ice cap is losing mass. Something is making the WAIS melt it would appear, and it cannot be the increasingly colder climate.
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As regards flooding, the U.N. IPCC admits having “low confidence” in even the “sign” of any changes—in other words, it is just as likely that climate change is making floods less frequent and less severe. In a study on the climate impact on flooding for the USA and Europe, published in the Journal of Hydrology, Volume 552, September 2017, Pages 704-717, the study found:
‘The number of significant trends was about the number expected due to chance alone.’
‘Changes in the frequency of major floods are dominated by multidecadal variability.’
‘The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concluded (Hartmann et al., 2013) that globally there is no clear and widespread evidence of changes in flood magnitude or frequency in observed flood records.’
‘The results of this study, for North America and Europe, provide a firmer foundation and support the conclusion of the IPCC that compelling evidence for increased flooding at a global scale is lacking.’
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They are using lies to get money. Sea level appears to be rising at a small and steady 3mm per year. It is neither acclerating or decelerating. The trend is linear. Atolls in the Pacific nations of the Marshall Islands and Kiribati, as well as the Maldives archipelago in the Indian Ocean, have risen up to 8 percent in size (Ford and Kench, 2020). 89% of the globe’s islands and 100% of large islands have stable or growing coasts (Duvat, 2019). No island larger than 10ha decreased in size.
As regards NOAA tide gauge data, let's look at some examples from around the world. N.B. All sites show a linear Relative Sea Level Trend: Kanmen, China 2.40mm/yr; Sydney, Australia 0.75mm/yr; Ferandina Beach, Florida 2.20mm/yr; Los Angeles, California 1.04mm/yr; Mera, Japan 3.8mm; Cascais, Portugal 1.32mm/yr. Remember, all linear over many decades, or more than a century. No acceleration (or deceleration for that matter).
Anyway, if you prefer satellite data NOAA's trend was +3.0mm/year Global Mean Sea Level (1993-2022), again linear last time I looked (but hey, it may have accelerated in the last month).
NASA satellite data (1993-present) for Global Mean Sea Level shows a linear rise of 3.3mm per year.
All linear. No acceleration, so no relationship to the exponential increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. It's going to be decades before even your big toe is submerged.
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@Hosni Mubarak Oh great! It's Hos! I got a bit worried after you asked for citations, and I gave you some then you never replied. Good to see you're still in the game. Anyway, I've got some more of those citations you like. Maybe this time you will concede or better still counter my position. Or at the very least respond.
So my position as you can see still remains it It was warmer during the Medieval (Elbert, 2013, 2.9°C above present), Roman (Margaritelli, 2020, 2°C above present), and Minoan Warm Periods (Lécuyer, 2018, 4°C above present). I have also discovered there are numerous scientific papers (sort of a hundred) when taken together demonstrate the Medieval Warm Period was warmer than the present and that it was a global phenomenon. I must thank you for that as your request for citations stimulated me to do more thorough research. Cheers, Hos.
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