Comments by "Guinness" (@GuinessOriginal) on "Ancient Greeks Couldn't See Blue DEBUNKED Once and For All" video.
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@Aerxis Are you familiar with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis? It suggests that the structure and vocabulary of a language can shape the way it’s speakers perceive and think about the world. If the ancient Greeks and Romans lacked a specific word for "blue," it is plausible that their perception and interpretation of this colour might have been different from ours. Scientific research in the field of colour perception has shed light on the variability of colour perception across cultures and languages. For instance, studies conducted by anthropologist Brent Berlin and linguist Paul Kay have shown that the number of basic colour terms varies between languages. Some languages, including certain indigenous ones, have fewer distinct colour terms than English. This suggests that the categorization and interpretation of colours can differ significantly across cultures.
The presence of blue objects in ancient Egyptian culture does not necessarily imply that they perceived or understood the colour in the same way we do today. The Egyptians might have identified certain materials or pigments that appeared visually distinct from others, without having the same nuanced understanding or perception of "blue" that we possess. Imagine a scenario where a person from a society that lacks a specific word for "romantic love" encounters a couple in a loving relationship. Despite not having a word to define and conceptualize romantic love, they may still observe the couple's behavior and recognize the emotional bond between them. However, their understanding and interpretation of that bond might differ from someone who possesses the specific concept of romantic love. Similarly, the absence of a specific word for "blue" in the ancient Greek and Roman languages doesn't necessarily mean they perceived and experienced the colour in the same way we do. I would argue that it is entirely plausible that the ancient Greeks and Romans had a distinct interpretation of blue that was different from ours, hence why they didn’t have a distinct word and definition for the concept. The sky is the single biggest expanse of colour humans ever see, and not to have a definition or concept of “sky-blue” is telling.
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@metatronyt Metatron, I love your stuff, been subbed for years. However, if you’ll permit me, meaning absolutely no disrespect, I’d like to present an alternative view.
Are you familiar with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis? It suggests that the structure and vocabulary of a language can shape the way it’s speakers perceive and think about the world. If the ancient Greeks and Romans lacked a specific word for "blue," it is plausible that their perception and interpretation of this colour might have been different from ours. Scientific research in the field of colour perception has shed light on the variability of colour perception across cultures and languages. For instance, studies conducted by anthropologist Brent Berlin and linguist Paul Kay have shown that the number of basic colour terms varies between languages. Some languages, including certain indigenous ones, have fewer distinct colour terms than English. This suggests that the categorization and interpretation of colours can differ significantly across cultures.
The presence of blue objects in ancient Egyptian culture does not necessarily imply that they perceived or understood the colour in the same way we do today. The Egyptians might have identified certain materials or pigments that appeared visually distinct from others, without having the same nuanced understanding or perception of "blue" that we possess. Imagine a scenario where a person from a society that lacks a specific word for "romantic love" encounters a couple in a loving relationship. Despite not having a word to define and conceptualize romantic love, they may still observe the couple's behavior and recognize the emotional bond between them. However, their understanding and interpretation of that bond might differ from someone who possesses the specific concept of romantic love. Similarly, the absence of a specific word for "blue" in the ancient Greek and Roman languages doesn't necessarily mean they perceived and experienced the colour in the same way we do. I would argue that it is entirely plausible that the ancient Greeks and Romans had a distinct interpretation of blue that was different from ours, hence why they didn’t have a distinct word and definition for the concept. The sky is the single biggest expanse of colour humans ever see, and not to have a definition or concept of “sky-blue” is telling.
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@Aerxis While it is tempting to assume that the ancient Greeks and Romans perceived the colour blue in the same way as we do, despite the absence of a specific word for it, a more nuanced perspective takes into account the influence of culture, language, and individual perception on colour interpretation.
Research in the field of colour perception has demonstrated the impact of linguistic relativity, suggesting that language and culture shape our understanding and perception of colours. The ancient Greeks and Romans may have lacked a distinct word for "blue," but this absence doesn't necessarily mean their perception and experience of the colour were identical to ours.
Moreover, studies have shown that the categorization and interpretation of colours can vary across cultures. Different languages have different numbers of basic colour terms, implying that the perception and categorization of colours differ between linguistic communities. The blue and white dress that many saw as black and gold shows it can even exist within them. It is entirely plausible that the ancient Greeks and Romans had a different interpretation of blue from ours. Their understanding of colour would have been shaped by their language, cultural context, and individual perception, and the absence of a specific word for "blue" in the Ancient Greek and Roman languages indicates the possibility of a different perception and understanding of the colour.
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@Aerxis You state that my argument is a baseless hypothesis. You should note that my argument is grounded in scientific research on colour perception and linguistic relativity. The influence of culture, language, and individual perception on colour interpretation has been widely studied and acknowledged in the field. The intention of my argument is to present a nuanced perspective that considers these factors in relation to the ancient Greeks and Romans' perception of the colour blue.
You also mention that the biological machinery required to perceive colours evolved millions of years ago and suggest that this implies a shared perception of blue across time and cultures. While it is true that our biological systems are similar, it does not necessarily mean that the subjective experience of perceiving colours is identical across individuals or cultures. Human perception is not solely determined by biology but is also shaped by cultural and linguistic factors.
Additionally, you mention that the ancient Greeks and Romans had words for certain types of blue, albeit not encompassing the same regions of the color space. While it is true that they had terms for specific shades or hues, it is important to consider the overall categorization and conceptualization of colour within their language and culture. The absence of a specific word for "blue" as a distinct category, as we understand it today, raises questions about whether their perception and understanding of the colour were equivalent to ours.
Furthermore, your comparison to the absence of a word for gravity and its implication on how people fell differently is not entirely analogous to the perception of colour. Gravity is a physical force with tangible effects, whereas colour perception is a subjective experience influenced by multiple factors. The absence of a word for gravity would not alter the fundamental physical reality, but the absence of a specific colour term in a language does impact how individuals conceptualize and categorize colours.
Finally, the dress example proves that even within the same language and culture and time period, people can perceive colours differently, in particular blue. This may be related to the fact it has one of the shorter wavelengths, and is subject to the most Rayleigh scattering. It is even plausible that the upper atmosphere was sufficiently different enough in ancient times to produce different levels of Rayleigh scattering that would cause the sky and thus the sea to have a different colour.
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@Aerxis Let's go through the points you've raised and address them one at a time:
The impact of changing skies:
You mention that the changing sky is irrelevant to the discussion because if modern individuals were transported to the past, they would also notice a difference. While it is true that a change in atmospheric conditions might affect our perception of colours, it does not negate the influence of cultural and linguistic factors on colour categorization and interpretation. The discussion is centered around how language and culture shape our understanding and categorization of colours, not how changing atmospheric conditions alone affect perception.
Perception of colour and gravity:
You argue that the perception of colour is similar to our perception of gravity, as both are based on neurons firing after input is detected by specialized cells. While it is true that neurons play a role in the perception of both colour and gravity, it's important to recognize the fundamental differences between the two. Colour perception is a subjective experience influenced by various factors, including cultural and linguistic influences, whereas gravity is a physical force that can be objectively measured and observed.
Language and colour perception in animals:
You mention that animals like octopi perceive colors without the need for language. It is true that some animals possess the ability to perceive colours , but it is important to distinguish between human perception and animal perception. Humans have a complex system of language and culture that profoundly influences our understanding and categorisation of colours. While language may not be required for basic colour perception, its influence becomes significant when it comes to the categorisation and interpretation of colours.
Language influencing colour perception:
You express skepticism about language's influence on colour perception itself and argue that we have no evidence of language directly affecting colour perception. While conducting a conclusive experiment specifically testing the influence of language on colour perception might be challenging, numerous studies have demonstrated the impact of language and culture on colour categorisation, as well as how individuals from different linguistic backgrounds perceive and describe colours differently. This body of research supports the idea that language influences how we perceive and interpret colours, even if it does not fundamentally alter the physical process of color perception.
The dress example:
You suggest that the dress example, which refers to the viral image that sparked debates about the perceived colors of the dress, is not relevant to the conversation. While the dress example might not directly address the influence of language on colour perception, it highlights the subjective nature of colour perception and how individual differences in perception can arise. This example demonstrates that under certain conditions, individuals can perceive and interpret colours differently, further supporting the idea that colour perception is influenced by various factors, including individual differences.
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@rozzgrey801 While it is tempting to assume that the ancient Greeks and Romans perceived the colour blue in the same way as we do, despite the absence of a specific word for it, a more nuanced perspective takes into account the influence of culture, language, and individual perception on colour interpretation.
Research in the field of colour perception has demonstrated the impact of linguistic relativity, suggesting that language and culture shape our understanding and perception of colours. The ancient Greeks and Romans may have lacked a distinct word for "blue," but this absence doesn't necessarily mean their perception and experience of the colour were identical to ours.
Moreover, studies have shown that the categorization and interpretation of colours can vary across cultures. Different languages have different numbers of basic colour terms, implying that the perception and categorization of colours differ between linguistic communities. The dress example shows it can even exist within them. It is entirely plausible that the ancient Greeks and Romans had a different interpretation of blue from ours. Their understanding of colour would have been shaped by their language, cultural context, and individual perception, and the absence of a specific word for "blue" in the Ancient Greek and Roman languages indicates the possibility of a different perception and understanding of the colour.
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