Comments by "Ash Roskell" (@ashroskell) on "Modern Toxic Masculinity is a MYTH" video.
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Upper Echelon Gamers : As an expression, “Toxic Masculinity,” I believe, is apt, when dealing with some individuals. But, like any personal description of hateful behaviour, or any epithet, it’s nothing. Having said that, as it’s used in the sense you describe, I agree with you. But, your definition is too narrow, for me. There is a, “problem,” to be addressed, around issues of, “masculinity,” which should not be ignored. Do you agree?
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Optimist Prime : Yes, men face a whole slew of problems, very different in nature, to the ones faced by women, which are equally real. Though I agree with those points (stats) in R Peacemaker’s comment, it is not the whole story. I accept Upper Echelon’s points too. But, it doesn’t help to act like there is no problem, either, don’t you think? . . . I hate swearing feminism. But, I worry that the reaction to it, can go the opposite way? In this comment thread, you can see there are a few people trying to hijack this video, to make it sound like he was speaking up for the women haters. Upper E G will find that just as abhorrent as the issue he was discussing, I imagine? Though I don’t, “know,” this, I wouldn’t be a fan, if I believed anything other
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MrCryptonate : Now, that was an insightful comment. Where DID this come from? In fairness, he did explain a whole experiment in gaming, which was set up to show, “toxic masculinity,” which turned out to be faked; as it was a male pretending to be a woman, and people who spotted the fake, were dismissed as, “toxic,” simply for calling it out. But, at the same time, it is highly ironic, to see all the TOXICITY pouring out, from angry men, trying to hijack this video, into meaning something it doesn’t? There’s CLEARLY an issue around, “masculinity,” and I suspect it’s getting worse. If he’s just talking about the phrase itself, sure. He has a point. But, I’m not sure what it does to address any issue? . . .
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Joseph Martin : I honestly don’t think Upper Echelon Gamers is pushing a, “right wing,” agenda? I HOPE NOT? I did see flaws in his argument, which I have addressed to him. But, this is not like Thoughty Two, or one of those Right-Wing-Propaganda outlets, that pretends to be a science and social issues YouTube Channel? I urge you to give him the benefit on this one? Or, at least, site me some other cases, where you see a, “right wing,” agenda being pushed? Respectfully ✌️
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Jade Orion : I really enjoyed reading that. And, I was compelled by your first couple of paragraphs, in particular. The point about arguing with a ghost, as it were, struck me. UEG’s point about the very REAL attempts, by SOME, “SJW’s,” to influence the culture of Gaming, are completely valid, and it is a phenomena that threatens to do serious damage to the culture of Gaming. However, I think your comment tapped into what it was that made me uncomfortable with this video? It needed more balance, and an acknowledgement that there are very real problems with male oppressive behaviour. You can’t read through the sheer HATE, spilling out from angry men, on this thread, and then POSSIBLY say that there is not a real problem, right?
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Katie Elkins : Well it sure was comprehensive, if not an entire, “essay.” I really HOPE he does read it, though. Some excellent points in there. My worry, for what it’s worth: is that we end up in a debate over terminology, whilst failing to acknowledge that there REALLY IS a problem. I agreed with UEG’s video, for the most part, and hope it sparks healthy debate. But, it’s the first one of his videos that I honestly felt was, “flawed,” in seeming to gloss over the very real issues. You only need to read down through the early comments in this thread, and by the time you’ve gotten through 10 or more, it’s APPARENT that there’s an issue with Toxic SOMETHING?! What ever we CALL it, there are angry men, trying to hijack the meaning of this video, into supporting their hate filled agendas. You can’t read this thread and pretend there isn’t a problem, whatever you, “call,” it 👍✌️
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Upper Echelon Gamers : Well, as you can see, I have tried, really hard, to get a response from you, as to my concerns, but it looks like I won’t be getting one? I really hope it’s only because you’re just too busy? But, I would really appreciate a response, to hear you expand a little on the, “actual problem,” and how it should be addressed? You made clear what should NOT happen. But, it’s not clear that you acknowledge that there is, at the very least, a, “problem,” at all? . . .
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Will Godar : It is confusing. I’m probably not helping with this anecdote, but I was in a court house, a few years ago, and I held the door open for a female judge and her entourage. You know what she said to me? “Well, at least chivalry is not yet completely dead, young man,” or words very close to that. I thought, “young man? . . . I’m OLDER THAN GOD?” She and her company all beamed at me, as they walked through, prompting me to give a little, gentlemanly bow, which only added to the small sense of, “comedy,” and she gave a little chuckle. Just one of those tiny, fleeting moments, which made us all a teeny bit happier about life, for one brief encounter. I’ll keep doing me. Those who get pissed about it? I can take all comers, thanks 😉✌️👍
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Dani Langlois : That is truly chilling, if not at all surprising. I know that Upper Echelon Gamers (UEG) is challenging that sort of thing, head on, and I hope he is aware of the video you sited? It will be the next one I look at. In my view, UEG is the most articulate, incisive, even-handed, analytical journalists I have ever seen, period, let alone as a Gaming Journalist. I have to admit to some disquiet, at his venture into the Toxic Masculinity debate; not because it isn’t valid or necessary, as it so clearly is effecting the culture of the Gaming Industry. Rather, I detected a more personal sense of grievance, which I haven’t seen him give sway to before? I could be wrong? But, I couldn’t agree with everything he said. And, if he was to debate the topic with me, I guess I would probably start by suggesting he takes a look at the angry men, trying to hijack the meaning of his content, on this thread? You can’t read the outpouring of male-hate, mixed in with the sound supporters of his views, and those who respectfully disagree with, at least, PART of his analysis, without being FORCED to conclude that there’s a serious issue?
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Upper Echelon Gamers : I would be very grateful if you would respond to this comment, please? : I don’t know how much of this thread you have the time to read, but if you have taken a cursory view, you MUST have seen how many angry men have tried to hijack your video? Some truly hateful remarks are being made, and some of those, seem to want us to think that you share their hate and anger. None of us a re dumb enough to buy that, obviously. But, here’s my question: How can you read all that visceral, malignant, male rage, and not see that there REALLY IS a, “problem,” with the culture? Though I accept your basic premise, I fear there’s a risk that, in spotting and calling out the agendas of various SJW’s, we can end up going in the wrong, opposite direction. We could be arguing over, “definitions,” more than we are about the, “issues?” I’m a huge fan of your journalism, and, as I say; YOU ARE RIGHT. But, you also seem to be overlooking, or setting aside, the fact that, whatever name we call it by, the problem DOES exist. Just LOOK at THIS, your own comment thread, and tell me there aren’t hate filled, raging, juvenile males, who want to hijack your message, and turn it into the very Toxicity that you do not validate? Am I completely wrong? . . . I don’t think so? 👍✌️
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G Conger : I really hope you’re wrong about that? One video, that you disagree with, does not an Alt-Right Conspiracy, make. Not saying you ARE wrong. Just saying, I hope he joins the dialogue? Maybe expands on his ideas? We can agree that his gaming journalism is first rate, right? The best I’ve ever seen, in my view. But, this video talks about a problem, and says what he thinks is wrong. What it didn’t do, is say whether he acknowledges the existence of coordinated, “toxic,” behaviour, or what he thinks should be done to address that. I am willing to extend the benefit of the doubt, until I know more. Aren’t you? ✌️
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Katie Elkins : Well, you won’t get slammed by me. It’s there alright. I understand his point, after seeing what Rock Paper Shotgun, et al, tried to do to Project CD Red, for example; stirring up a lot of unfounded accusations about images they were, “offended,” by, when they had NO context to draw on. And, to see that expand the way it did. I’ve always maintained that a, “popular view,” when based on an obvious falsehood, has to be a coordinated lie. And, I found that alarming. Also, there will always be those who want to turn a thing into something it isn’t; like when a bunch of juveniles get carried away on a live stream game, and start coming out with juvenile abuse. Suddenly, it’s, “an endemic issue, speaking to the toxic culture of gaming?” More like a bunch of unpleasant kids being unpleasant kids, which has been happening since humans learned to talk.
Yet, after all that, there’s always another side of the coin. And, in this case, we’re not just talking about a few kids, saying things they wouldn’t dare say in front of their mothers, for fear of a slap. There is, even here, sparked by this very video, the cherry picking of the sentiments expressed, and hijacking into some kind of, “Anti-Liberal,” pseudo-political agenda. All sprinkled with a liberal dusting of hate speech, misogyny and racism. So, to say, “Toxic Masculinity is a Myth,” is only true, in that very narrow definition, to which he addressed this video; regarding the sinister forces that would either hijack the issue as a way of destroying the competition, or just to prove a thesis, which fits some sort of, “SJW,” view of the world, that activists want us to agree with.
But, that level of, “coordination,” exists, among the haters and the far right, and to pretend that it doesn’t, or that it hasn’t infected gaming, is equivalent, in my view, to pretending that there is no such thing as Nazis, or being a holocaust denier. It’s beyond obtuse, to a dangerous degree.
It’s for that reason that I am disappointed that UEG has not responded to any of the comments, after inviting them, on such a hot topic? I know he does, sometimes, respond to people, having seen it. And, though I, obviously would have liked it if he’d responded to me, for the sake of my ego 😉, all I really feel, that I kinda’ need to know from him, is that he acknowledges that, whatever we may call it, there is a problem; there is coordination, and that far right agenda exists every bit as realistically as the SJW one does? I just hope he’s NOT denying that?
I was astounded at the quality of this guy’s journalism and eloquence, when I first encountered this channel. And, I lavished praise on him, in his threads, because he didn’t seem to be getting much appreciation, other than the generalised kind. I wanted him to know, “what,” it was, in specific terms, that people were appreciating, and to know that people understood the value and quality of his work.
So, I have to confess to being a little rattled, by this video. Again, not because I disagree with anything in it, but because of what it, “doesn’t say.” To me, it was kind of like hearing a lecture on German history in the 20th Century, which tells us nothing but positives about what a wonderful nation, people and history, they can be proud of, without ever mentioning Hitler, or WW II. Nothing, inherently, “wrong,” with it, but it leaves you feeling uneasy, as to the, “Why,” of it?
I just feel I need to know, now? Otherwise, it’s going to be in the back of my mind, whenever I’m listening to him talk . . . To suggest that there aren’t right wing forces, working just as hard as the left, to influence ALL aspects of culture would be beyond naive, and possibly sinister. UEG has NOT done THAT, but he did skate around the, “Concentration Camps,” as it were, and he is not engaging with anyone on the topic, after INVITING that. He RAISED the issue, and STATED that he knew it was going to set people off in the comments, right? But, will he take NO responsibility for that? I’ve tried REALLY HARD to draw him on the topic, but . . . Nothing. That bothers me.
You wrote REALLY well, and I didn’t JUST enjoy reading you, I also thought, “I’m not the only one, here, trying to reason out the debate, taking time to respond, after HE INVITED the responses. Some people have done an excellent job, and it seems the least he could do?”
You should think about a career in writing, if you haven’t already, by the way? Sorry for going on again, but this video has obviously gotten to me, and that was some stream of consciousness stuff going on, there.
I guess this is not the sort of issue that people can just, “agree to disagree,” about? And, I don’t want to think of UEG as being the sort of person who would just toss a verbal grenade, like this, and walk off, without even looking back over his shoulder, to see what it’s done? . . . 👍✌️
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Agt.BADASS : “The Great Game Robbery,” would be a more apt title? “How they took your money, then stole it, then spied on you, ruined your life if you told anyone, or complained, and then robbed you again for good measure, whilst kicking you in the balls until you signed a contract to agree that you were happy they were robbing you.” 😁
But, don’t tell them you got that idea from me? I wouldn’t want some FIB lookin’ Private Goons coming to my house to, “Surprise Mechanic,” my ass! 😆
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Agt.BADASS : My, “FIB,” reference was from the Grand Theft Auto games. They have FIB, so they don’t get sued by the FBI, I guess. And, the goons who were meant to look as intimidating as them, but who really worked for a private investigation firm, hired by a games company to scare the s**t out of one of their former fans? . . . That is a reference to SubMato (probably misspelled) who’s story has been covered, a few videos back, by Upper Echelon Gamers. Three recent videos will tell you the whole story, about how the Games Companies are CRUSHING people, for petty, perceived, “offences,” with truly horrible tactics, including the above mentioned bastardry, combined with hunting him down on the web and destroying his livelihood and reputation, in just a few days. It’s a shocking story, and you’re at the best source for the factual account of what happened. This UEG guy, does first rate games journalism and, like the best journalists, covers himself by ensuring he has FACTS, and cannot be later accused of distorting them. Check it out? And tell me what you think? ✌️👍
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