Comments by "Cartoon Mo!" (@cartoonmo5976) on "Chris At Speakers Corner"
channel.
-
71
-
27
-
18
-
14
-
11
-
10
-
9
-
Brother Chris, next time a muslim asks where Jesus explicitly said "I am God" you can silence them with...
Revelation 1:1, is Jesus God or the Angel of God that declared He is God in Genesis 31:13 and who was present, conversing and interacting with Gideon in Judges!?!
Revelation 1:1
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His Angel to His servant John,
Genesis 31:11 & 13
In that dream the Angel of God said to me, ‘Jacob!’ And I replied, ‘Here I am.’
I Am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and made a solemn vow to Me. Now get up and leave this land at once, and return to your native land.’ ”
Judges 6:12-14 & 34, 36, 39 & 40
And the Angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon and said, “The LORD is with you, O mighty man of valor.”
“Please, my Lord,” Gideon replied, “if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? And where are all His wonders of which our fathers told us, saying, ‘Has not the LORD brought us up out of Egypt?’ But now the LORD has forsaken us and delivered us into the hand of Midian.”
The LORD turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel from the hand of Midian. Am I not sending you?”
So the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, who blew the ram’s horn and rallied the Abiezrites behind him
Then Gideon said to God, “If You are going to save Israel by my hand, as You have said,
Then Gideon said to God, “Do not be angry with me; let me speak one more time. Please allow me one more test with the fleece. This time let it be dry, and the ground covered with dew.”
And that night God did so. Only the fleece was dry, and dew covered the ground.
John 5:16-18
Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him.
But Jesus answered them,
“To this very day 👉My Father👈 is at His work, and I too am working.”
👉Because of this👈,
👉the Jews tried all the harder to kill
Him👈.
Not only was He breaking the Sabbath,
but
👉He was even calling God His own
Father👈,
👉making Himself equal with
God.👈
John 13:12-14
When Jesus had washed their feet and put on His outer garments, He reclined with them again and asked, “Do you know what I have done for you?
👉You call Me👈 Teacher
👉and Lord (Κύριος)👈,
👉and rightly so, because I am👈.
👉So if I, your Lord (Κύριος)👈 and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet.
Philo was more fluent in Greek than in Hebrew and read the Jewish Scriptures chiefly from the Septuagint,
Philo, consistently uses Κύριος as a designation for God!
Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
8
-
7
-
7
-
6
-
6
-
6
-
5
-
5
-
5
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Hold on Alonzo, you said "methodology to verify sayings", is this an admission that you've got nothing preserved from Al-Lah/mo, only "claimed" verifications of what was supposedly stated/said!?!....
So, your entire preservation is affirmed to be reliant on others, the same others that apply using this "methodology" in your Hadiths, which you all discredit as none of you accept the Hadiths in their entirety, so nothing is preserved, not even the quran, regardless of claim to preserved text, which is easily debunked too!....
So you've actually got nada, Jack to the diddly to the squat! 😂🤣
5
-
4
-
4
-
4
-
4
-
4
-
4
-
4
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Actually Alonzo, I read the King James version from the first word of Genesis to the last word of Revelation, and I understood it clearly!.....
And seen as you claim to be a Biblical Scholar, want to provide the sources of your hilarious attempts at exegesis!...
Come now Alonzo, I'm ready and waiting, "I'm your teacher boy!" 😂🤣
Now, how about you tell us all about Alif Lam Ra, what's this mean, supposedly they're (Alif lam verses) claimed to be letters, but they're not letters, they're words ("Al-Ra"), same with the others, so what do these words mean Alonzo!?! 😂
And can you show me where the Bible makes the claim the quran does regarding being a clear book that explains everything!?!....
Why do you need Hadiths and Tafsirs, prove me wrong, Al-Ra who or what is Al-Ra!?! 😂
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
@northstar1690
You don't know Jack diddly squat about plants!....
A male plant flowers once mature in order to release pollen to pollinate female plants!
A female plant flowers in order to be pollinated, because the plant is mature enough to produce offspring (seeds (children))!
The verse/translation states, "passing the flower of her age", this dictates no longer being in her prime, like say at 40 you wouldn't be in your prime like when you were 20,
The fact the "flower" would be referred to as a virgin, meaning untouched by man, this is irrelevant in regards to age/maturity, so the verse is stating that if a mature woman who has remained chaste but is past her prime and she/a man wish to marry, then there's no sin in doing so!....
So, Nature has just exposed and refuted you!
As does 1 Corinthians 7:38!
Now, 4:3 & 65:4 are explicitly clear, 4:3 uses the Arabic word for children!
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
3
-
FAO Farid!...
Al-Jawab As-Sahih
Sheikh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah
Ibn Kathir Tafsir (Arabic) 3:56
Al-Lah recounted their articles in the Qur’an, and he responded to each group, so they continued to do so close to three hundred years,
وقد حكى الله مقالاتهم في القرآن، ورد على كل فريق، فاستمروا على ذلك قريباً من ثلثمائة سنة،
Farid, your scholars not only affirm the preservation of our Scripture, but also the Disciples/Apostles, and the early Churchfathers, which by default affirms and authenticates their publications/works, aswel as Christianity!
Now, here's what I want you (Farid) to prove to me/us......
Prove that Jesus Christ, Incarnate, with a book called injil, and all the Prophets before His Incarnation, along with Christians, were all around during the time of Moses (7:155-157)!
Show us a single Christian Scholar who've ever made that claim!
3
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Now now, you're not jumping anywhere, you want to try and refute Christianity, well here's your chance, prove 7:155-157 true, there, job would be done, so, bring the evidence, oh, and my argument is academic because it's coming from your scholars, unless you're discrediting all your scholars and declaring there's no academia when it comes to your cult!?! 😂
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
@quintessence3991
Actually, if you look at your initial statement/response, you assert the claim that the Bible proves the Bible,
And what exposes you is the fact you've not corrected anyone responding before I stepped in, so, your assertive claim has been understood correctly as just that, an assertive claim!.....
I never claimed you believe or disbelieve what you claimed, it's irrelevant to my point, so don't try bringing your Wurzle Gummidge's (strawmen) to me!
The only reason you're now trying to wriggle out of it is because you assumed we'd all play your game, jump through your hoops, but I've come along and thrown a wrench in your works, and you don't have any proof to back your claim up when I've challenged you!
Now, while I wait for your evidence/proof, answer the question, are you muslim, why so shy!?! 😂
2
-
In order for Al-Lah to be the "most" merciful, "most" forgiving, "most" just, dictates a comparison, there's others who are merciful, forgiving, just, these are attributes and traits humans aka creation have, so either Al-Lah is comparing Al-Lah with creation, or other gods, either way, this is shirk.....So which is it, humans or other gods in order for Al-Lah to make such claims!?! 🤔 😂 🤣
2
-
2
-
2
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Haha, so Pickthall now is my own personal made up interpretation, and Pickthall/his translation, as an Islamic Scholar, isn't a Scholary work! 😂🤣
So explain to me why his translation is accepted, how about all your translations affirm the wa is conjunctive!.....
And, if I'm so wrong, prove it, simply provide quran verses, scholars/Scholary works, dictionaries/lexicons that state otherwise regarding the wa!
Do you realise how many times the wa is used in your quran, and hadiths, and every single time it is used, it is translated as one word with one function "And, conjunctive!".
So Alonzo, because it would be so easy to prove me wrong, do it! 😂
2
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Do you also realise Alonzo, that you've focused on only the wa, so you don't dispute the praying,
So your only discrepancy is whether Al-Lah is praying alone to another, or whether the angels are too praying alongside!
Now, it's evident and obvious that you've focused on the angels being alongside Al-Lah as that would be shirk, but you've taken your eye off the ball regarding the shirk regardless because Al-Lah is praying to another, who's the one Al-Lah is praying to, remember, your logic, if a god prays that dictates and necessitates dependancy, but your Al-Lah depends on creation in multiple ways!?!
2
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Interesting, your lah commands you all to sacrifice yourselves for your lah, and your lah doesn't even forgive when the shahada has been taken, look at mr pharaoh in the quran, he took shahada, and your lah didn't show mercy, your lah showed mercilessness!
Oh, and your lah even commands Moses to settle in Egypt, so, Israel in the quran includes Egypt, Palestine belongs to Israel, your Lah said so! 😂🤣
2
-
2
-
2
-
Shamsi's fallacy annihilates Islam!....
It acknowledges and affirms that the Divinity of Christ, became flesh, therefore Christ is already identified as God pre incarnation!....
And then regarding God's perfection, Al-Lah fails, just two examples are that Al-Lah can't enter creation (even though Al-Lah claims to be in creation and on earth (6:3), and Al-Lah needs another in order to have a son (21:17), and has daughters (Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Al-Manat, so has already created offspring like humans, which is paradoxical! 😂 🤣
2
-
Fao brother Chris (Iceman),
It's interesting that the Shia (source below) admit that there was only the rasm during the time of Muhammad.
Calligraphy, Orthography and Diacritical Marks Used in the Qur'an
The first and second copies of the Qur'an were written in Kufic script at the time of the Prophet. The very basic nature of the script, without diacritical marks, was suitable for the reciters, relators and scholars who had learned the Qur'an by heart, since only they knew the precise pronunciation of the words. Others found great difficulty if they opened the Book and tried to read correctly.
It was for this reason that at the end of the first century after Hijrah Abu al-Aswad al-Du'ali, one of the companions of 'Ali, with the guidance of the latter, wrote out the rules of the Arabic language and on the orders of the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik produced a Qura'nic text with diacritical marks. This, to a certain extent, removed the difficulty of reading the Kufic script.
Several difficulties remained, however; the diacritical marks for vowels, for example, were for a time only points. Instead of a fathah, a point was placed at the beginning of the letter and, instead of kasrah, a point below and, for a dammah, a point above at the end of a letter.
This led to ambiguity. It was not till Khalil ibn Ahmad al-Farahidi set about explaining the maddah, i.e. the lengthening of certain words, the doubling of letters, the diacritical marks of vowelling and the pause, that the difficulty of reading script was finally removed.
https://www.al-islam.org/quran-islam-its-impact-and-influence-life-muslims-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-tabatabai/part-5-order
2
-
2
-
Mark 5:41-42 indeed does state that the "little girl" was "twelve years old" in the Greek!
Mark 5:41
And having taken the hand of the child (παιδίου), He says to her, "Talitha (ταλιθα), koum!" which is translated, "Little girl, I say to you, arise!"
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
παιδίου - 3813. paidion
little, young child, damsel.
Neuter diminutive of pais; a childling (of either sex), i.e. (properly), an infant, or (by extension) a half-grown boy or girl; figuratively, an immature Christian -- (little, young) child, damsel.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
ταλιθα - 5008. talitha
young girl.
Of Chaldee origin (compare taleh); the fresh, i.e. Young girl; talitha (O maiden) -- talitha.
Mark 5:42
Immediately the girl (κοράσιον) got up and began to walk around. She was twelve (δώδεκα) years old, and at once they were utterly astounded.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
κοράσιον - 2877. korasion
damsel, girl
Neuter of a presumed derivative of kore (a maiden); a (little) girl -- damsel, maid.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
δώδεκα - 1427. dódeka
twelve.
From duo and deka; two and ten, i.e. A dozen -- twelve.
2
-
It's as easy as this!....
Injil, Isa Dawah script
Response: prove Jesus Christ was incarnate, with an injil, followers (Christians), and all the Prophets between Moses & Jesus Christ, were all around during the time of Moses (7:155-157)!
Trinity Dawah script
Response: Al-Lah doesn't dispute the concept of the Trinity, only if the Triune concept applies to Al-Lah, but Al-Lah, Isa, and Maryam have nothing to do with the Trinity, so who cares whether Al-Lah is triune or not, 6:78 proves who Al-Lah is!
That's checkmate, debate in its entirety is over!
2
-
2
-
2
-
2
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
@MohammadQasim
Your feeble attempts at countering fail on the simple basis that WE haven't made a claim to have made a report for being assaulted with ketchup, Ibn Fibbin Ketchup Footnote claims HE was, and DID!
This would be, as is proven, accessible by the public, yet no one, NO ONE claimed to be involved in this "report/claim" have any record or knowledge of it, only ibn fibbin ketchup Footnote!....
So, WE don't have to show, or provide you or him with any additional information to disprove ibn fibbin ketchup Footnote's claimed "claim/report", HE'S made the claim, the burden of proof is on HIM, even your post it note scrapbook claims that, or is your post it note scrapbook, your pagan Lah, and your loopy pagan Sabian in error, again!?! 😂 🤣
1
-
4:137 exposes the "all/most forgving and merciful", Al-Lah rejects Muslims indefinately if they disbelieve more than once, and all Muslims, especially the Dawah lot, end up triggering 4:137 and therefore they're all apostates no matter how many times they take the shahada, follow the Sunnah to the letter, etc etc, Al-Lah still rejects them!.....
And this verse & point can put any and all of those doing Dawah in the corner at Speakers Corner, YouTube, and around the world, it exposes and destroys their script, and compels them to have to work with what the Quran actually says, which is what we as Christians are exposing!
1
-
1
-
@toby7936
The point you're missing is that if Al-Lah rejects those who believe, disbelieve, believe, then disbelieve, then there's no forgiveness or mercy, so Al-Lah can't be all forgiving and merciful, it's a paradox aka a contradiction!.....
And all muslims actually reject the Quran because you have been duped into following Taqiyya Bid'ah Hadith and Tafsir doctrines, we as Christians expose your cult based on what your cult and Quran claims, you all reject the Quran when it exposes and embarrasses you!...would you like me to prove it, I'll quote a ref/verse and watch how quick you reject it for what it states!?!....
Furthermore, to strengthen my point, Al-Lah doesn't forgive shirk!....
And I never mentioned anything about the sahaba and blasphemy, but seen as you brought it up.....
If you claim anything against Muhammad, or Fatima (Lady of Heaven) as blasphemous/blasphemy, that's shirk!
1
-
@toby7936
Wrong! And when you say shabah I assume you mean the shahada not the sahaba, well the shahada is shirk too!....So you commit shirk which is unforgiveable in order to be forgiven and receive mercy, that's a paradoxical oxymoron! 😂 🤣
And as for your Tafsirs, seen as you credit them and your scholars so much, watch and read this!....
Al-Jawab As-Sahih
Sheikh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah
Affirms we have the Truth, preserved, it's our interpretation of the text, not the text itself that's questioned!
3:56
Tafseer of the Great Qur’an / Ibn Katheer (d. 774 AH) is classified and verified
👉Al-Lah recounted their articles in the Qur’an, and he responded to each group, so they continued to do so close to
👉three hundred years👈,
then a king of the Greek kings called Constantine emerged for them, he entered the religion of Christianity, a trick was said to corrupt him, because he was a philosopher, and it was said that he was ignorant. He changed the religion of Christ for them and perverted it, added to it and decreased it, and laid down laws for him, and the loyal secretariat which is a low (vile) betrayal, and pork was permissible in his time, and they prayed for him to the east, and they drew for him churches, temples and hermatiges, and increased their fasting ten days for a sin they claim he committed. And the religion of Christ became the religion of Constantine, except that he built for them more than twelve thousand temples, churches, hermitages, and courtyards, and he built the city attributed to him, and the royal sect of them followed him,
تفسير تفسير القرآن العظيم/ ابن كثير (ت 774 هـ) مصنف و مدقق
وقد حكى الله مقالاتهم في القرآن، ورد على كل فريق، فاستمروا على ذلك قريباً من ثلثمائة سنة، ثم نبغ لهم ملك من ملوك اليونان يقال له قسطنطين، فدخل في دين النصرانية، قيل حيلة ليفسده، فإنه كان فيلسوفاً، وقيل جهلاً منه، إلا أنه بدل لهم دين المسيح وحرفه، وزاد فيه ونقص منه، ووضعت له القوانين، والأمانة الكبرى التي هي الخيانة الحقيرة، وأحل في زمانه لحم الخنزير، وصلوا له إلى المشرق، وصوروا له الكنائس والمعابد والصوامع، وزادوا في صيامهم عشرة أيام من أجل ذنب ارتكبه فيما يزعمون، وصار دين المسيح دين قسطنطين إلا أنه بنى لهم من الكنائس والمعابد والصوامع والديارات ما يزيد على اثني عشر ألف معبد، وبنى المدينة المنسوبة إليه، واتبعه الطائفة الملكية منهم،
The first complete copies of single New Testament books appear around 200CE.
If we're to go by Ibn Kathir's claim, then the manuscripts that are dated during/around the time of Constantine I are 1 & 2 Timothy, 1 & 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, and Jude.
Even if we were to ignore these parts of the NT, it wouldn't change the doctrine, belief, faith, that Jesus is the Son of God, came in the flesh, was Crucified for our sins, resurrected on the 3rd day, and declared He is Yahweh, the Son of Yahweh (God)!....As supported by early church fathers, whose writings too, pre date Constantine I!
Constantine I converted to Christianity on his deathbed in 337CE!
The legalisation of Christianity, sanctioning of building churches, the start of the Ecumenical Councils, all happened before his conversion!
Waraqa was translating an injil...
Reference: Sahih Muslim 160 a
In-book reference: Book 1, Hadith 310
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 1, Hadith 301 (deprecated numbering scheme)
Muhammad swore an oath on the Torah in the 7th century....
Reference: Sunan Abi Dawud 4449
In-book reference: Book 40, Hadith 99
English translation: Book 39, Hadith 4434
And Quran claims we have the truth in 2:89, 5:46-47 and 10:29, and that the Injil is the entire Bible, including Paul!........
1
-
@toby7936
Number and Names of the Disciples of ‘Eesa
Fatwa No: 395068
Fatwa Date:2-4-2019 - Rajab 27, 1440
Question
Salamu Aleikum. How many disciples did Isa have? What are their names?
Answer
According to one view, the number of the disciples of ‘Eesa may Allaah exalt his mention is twelve men, and this was reported by Ibn ‘Abbaas may Allaah be pleased with him.
Their names were mentioned in some books of Tafseer (interpretation of the Quran) and books of history.
Ibn Al-Jawzi may Allaah have mercy upon him said in Zaad Al-Muyassar: “Ibn ‘Abbaas said: the number of the disciples (of ‘Eesa) is twelve men.” [End of quote]
Taahir ibn ‘Aashoor may Allaah have mercy upon him said in At-Tahreer wat-Tanweer:
“The disciples (of ‘Eesa) are twelve men, and they are: Simon Peter and his brother Andrew, John the son of Zebedee, and his brother Jacob - all of whom are fishermen -Matthew, Thomas, Philip, Baratho of Amos, Jacob the son of Hilfi, Labaus, Simon the Zealot (or Simon the Cananite), and Judah the Iscariot.” [End of quote]
Knowing their number and their names is not a knowledge that entails any action or belief, so we advise you not to be preoccupied with matters that would not benefit you and entail action.
Allah knows best.
Tafsir al-Jalalayn actually states....
And strike for them as a similitude mathalan is the first direct object the inhabitants ashāba is the second direct object of 👉the town of Antioch Antākya when the messengers namely Jesus’s disciples came to it👈 idh jā’ahā’l-mursalūna is an inclusive substitution for ashāba’l-qaryati ‘the inhabitants of the town’.
Who are the messengers by name and who went to Antioch!?! 😂 🤣
And they're identified as messengers of Isa!....
But in Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs, they're messengers of Al-Lah, so we've got shirk affirmed!...
(Coin for them a similitude) explain to the people of Mecca: (The people of the city) of Antioch, how We destroyed them (👉when those sent (from Allah👈) came unto them) i.e. when the emissary of Jesus, Simon the Pure, came to them and they disbelieved in and denied him;
Tafsir Al-Quran Al-Adhim, by Ibn Abi Hatim (D. 327H)
18050 – Shuayb Al-Jaba’ie said: The names of the two messengers where it is said: (We sent to them two) are
👉Simon👈 and John👈.
And the name of the third is 👉Paul👈.
(Ad-Dar 50/7)
From Shuayb Al-Jaba’ie, he said, “The name of the messengers, who said, ‘When we have sent them two,’ Are
👉Simon👈 and 👉John👈,
and the name of the third is👉Paul.”👈
Darju Al-Darar Fi-Tafsir Al-Aa’yi Wal-Suwar, Al-Jurjani (D. 471H)
By Abu Bakar Abd Al-Qahir Al-Jurjani Ad-Dar (D. 471H)
(The people of the city) Is the people of Antioch. This is narrated by Qatadah and Ikrimah 👉from 👉Tabari👈
👉 in his Tafsir (19/413).👈
And Abdul Razzaq in his Tafsir (2/140). (When we sent to them two) On the reign of E’esa (upon him peace) They are
👉Thomas👈 and👉 Paul👈.
Mentioned in Zad al-Masir (10/7) from Muqatil.
Mu’alam Al-Tanzil Fi-Tafsir Al-Quran, Tafsir Al-Baghawi (D. 510H)
By Imam Husayn Bin Mas’ud Al-Baghawi Al-Shafi’i (D. 510H)
[Quran 36:14] When We sent to them two but they denied them, so We strengthened them with a third, and they said, “Indeed, we are messengers to you.”
(When We sent to them two) Wahab said: Their names are 👉John👈 and👉 Paul,👈
(but they denied them, so we strengthened them) means:
We strengthened, (with a third) with a third messenger, and he was 👉Simon👈. And Abu Bakr read from Aa’sim: ‘so we strengthened them‘ by alleviating, which is in the first sense, such as your saying: We have emphasized and stressed by reducing and strengthening. And it is said: We have overcome their words: from the best of good.
And Ka’ab said: “The two prophets are
👉Sadiq and Saduq👈, and the third is
👉Shalum👈, but Allah added the sending to him, because E’esa (upon him peace) sent them by his command of Allah (and they said) all of them to the people of Antioch,” (Indeed, we are messengers to you).
Tafsir al-Baghawi is generally classified as one of the books of narration-based Tafsir, as it collects and presents many statements from the Sahabah and Tabi’un. The book primarily relies on 👉11 reliable chains of narrations,👈 which al-Baghawi mentions in the introduction to his work.
Tafsir Mu’jama Al-Bayan Fi-Tafsir Quran, by Al-Tabarusi (D. 548H)
It is said: the meaning for what is mentioned (People of the city) this city is Antioch in the statement of the commentators. (When messengers came to it) that is when
👉Allah sent Messengers to them👈 (When we sent to them two) any messengers from our messengers (They denied them both) that is they lied to the two messengers, Ibn Abbass said: They beat and imprisoned them. (So we strengthened them with a third) In other words, we have divided them and increased their appearance with a third messenger taken from the pride, namely strength, and prevention, from which they say that anyone who has been defeated is a usurper. Shu’ayba said: The names of the two messengers were
👉Simon👈 and 👉John👈 and the name of the third was 👉Paul👈.
Ibn Abbass and Ka’ab said: Sadiq, and Saduq and the third was Shalum. And it was said: They were the Messengers of E’esa and they were disciples. And Wahab and Ka’ab said: But rather the Almighty added to them by himself because E’esa sent them by his command (Indeed we are messengers to you) meaning that they said to them, O people of the city, Allah has sent us to you.
Tafsir Zad Al-Masir Fi-Ilm Al-Tafsir, by Ibn Jawzi (D. 597H)
The Almighty said: (And present to them an example) means: Describe for the people of Mecca, for example: likeness. Al-Zajaj said: Meaning: A representative of (the people of the city) represented a similar example to him, as opposed to a proverb, as if he said: mention the village owners to them. Ikrimah and Qatada said: This city is Antioch.
(When we sent to them two) And in the names there are three statements.
First: Ibn Abbas and Ka’ab said:
👉Sadiq and Saduq👈.
Second: Wahab Bin Munabah said:
👉John and Paul👈.
Third: Muqatil said:
👉Thomas and 👉Paul.👈
The (Mufasirun) commentators differed as to who sent the two messengers. The first of them: That Allah almighty sent them. It is apparent from the Quran, and it is narrated by Ibn Abbass, Ka’ab and Wahab. The second of them: That 👉E’esa sent them👈.
👉This may be added to Allah almighty because they are the messengers of his messenger👈. Qatadah and Ibn Jurayj said this.
This is shirk!
Tadkara Al-Arib Fi-Tafsir Al-Gharib, Al-Jawzi (D. 597H)
By Jamal Al-Din Mohammad Al-Jawzi (D. 597H)
13- And (The City) is Antioch.
14- (two) their names are
👉John👈 and 👉Paul👈, (we strengthened) with strength (with a third) and his name is
👉Simon👈, Ka’ab said
👉Allah sent them👈, Qatada said they were
👉messengers of E’esa.👈
1
-
@toby7936
Tafsir al-Jami’ Lil-Ahkam al-Quran, by Imam 👉Al-Qurtubi👈 (D. 671H)
[Quran 61:14] O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, “Who are my supporters for Allah?” The disciples said, “We are supporters of Allah.” And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.
It was said: This verse came down in regard to the 👉apostles of E’esa👈 (peace be upon him). Ibn Ishaq said: 👉E’esa sent them👈 from the apostles and followers of
👉Peter and👉 Paul👈 to Rome,
👉Andrew👈 walked to the land where its people ate people.
And 👉Thomas👈 to the land of Babylon from the land of the East.
👉Philip👈 to Cartagena, which is Africa. And Jonas to Daqus the village of the people of the cave.
👉Jacob👈 is to Jerusalem, the house of the holy, and Ibn Talma to the Arabia, which is the land of the Hijaz.
And 👉Simon👈 to the land of the Berbers. And Judea and 👉Bardas👈 to Alexandria and its surroundings.
Allah supported them with Argument. They became visible, i.e. high. From your saying: Any one who is on the wall has appeared on the wall. Allah almighty knows what is right.
Libab Al-Ta’wil Fi Ma’ani Al-Tanzil, (741H)
By Abu Hasan Al-Ma’ruf Balhazan. D. 741
(When we sent to them two, but they rejected them) Wahab said: their names are
👉John👈 and 👉Paul👈.
Ka’ab said Sadiq, Saduq, (So we strengthened them with a third) i.e. we were strengthened by a third messenger, and he was
👉Simon👈 and it is said Shalum. Rather, Allah Almighty added the message to him because E’esa (upon him blessing and peace), sent them, with the permission of Allah Almighty, so they said, the apostles are all to the people of Antioch.
Tafsir Al-Quran Al-Adhim, by Al-Hafidh
👉Ibn Kathir👈 (D. 774 H)
And his statement: (When We sent to them two Messengers, they denied them both) means, they hastened to disbelieve in them. (so we reinforced them with a third) means, “We supported and strengthened them with a third Messenger.” ‘Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahab bin Sulayman, from Shuayb Al-Jaba’ie, “the names of the first two messengers were
👉Simon👈 and 👉John👈, and the name of the third was👉 Paul, 👈and the city was Antioch.”
[Quran 36:14] When we sent to them two but they denied them, so we strengthened them with a third, and they said, “Indeed, we are messengers to you.”
(When We sent to them two Messengers, they denied them both) means, they hastened to disbelieve in them. (so we reinforced them with a third) means, “We supported and strengthened them with a third Messenger.” ‘Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahab bin Sulayman, from Shu`ayb Al-Jaba’i, “the names of the first two messengers were
👉Sham`un👈 and 👉Yuhanna👈, and the name of the third was 👉Bulus,👈 and the city was Antioch (Antakiyah). (and they said) means, to the people of that city, (Verily, we have been sent to you as Messengers.) meaning, `from your Lord Who created you and Who commands you to worship Him Alone with no partners or associates.” This was the view of Abu Al-`Aliyah. Qatadah bin Di’amah claimed that 👉they were messengers of the Messiah, peace be upon him, sent to the people of Antioch.👈
Qasas al-Anbiya’ by 👉Ibn Kathir👈 (D. 774H), Vol. 1, P. 575
Section mentioning the status of E’esa (upon him peace) and his virtues.
And one who believed in The Messiah and believed him from the people of Damascus was a man who was called 👉Dina👈 and was hiding in a cave inside the eastern door close to the solid church for fear of
👉 the Jew Paul👈, and he was unjust and oppressive, with hatred for the Messiah, and when he came to him, he shaved the head of his nephew when he believed in The Messiah and roared him in the country and then stoned him until he died, Allah’s mercy be upon him.
👉When👉 Paul 👈heard that The Messiah had gone to Damascus, he prepared a mule and went out to kill him, and he received it at Kokuba; when he faced the companions of The Messiah, an Angel came to him, and he hit his face at the end of his wing, so when he saw that he fell. He believed the Messiah, and came to him and apologized for what he did and believed in him and he accepted it. 👈And he asked him to wipe his eyes so that God would return his sight to him. He said, “Go to our city in Damascus, at the end of the rectangular market of the East. He called you and came to him and returned to him his eyesight.”
And 👉Paul had solid faith in the Messiah👈 (upon him peace) that he is a slave of Allah and His Messenger.
Al-Lah butchers the event when Paul had his vision! If you dispute or reject this, then you reject Al-Lah's words!
Al-Bidayah Wal-Nihayah, by 👉Ibn Kathir👈 (D. 774), Vol. 2 P.119
When👉 Paul 👈heard that The Messiah, upon him peace, had gone to Damascus, he prepared his mules and went out to kill him, and he received it at Kokuba. And when he confronted the companions of The Messiah, 👉an Angel came to him👈and hit his face with the tip of his wing. 👉He blinded him👈.
So when he saw that himself, 👉he believed in The Messiah👈. So he came to him and apologized for what he had done and 👉believed in him👈,
👉so he accepted him👈 and
👉asked him👈 to wipe his eyes
👉so that God👈 would return his sight to him. He said, “Go to our guest in Damascus at the end of the rectangular market of the east; he calls for you.” He came to him and returned to him his eyesight,
and 👉Paul👈 had strong faith in the Messiah, upon him peace, that he is a slave of Allah and His Messenger.
👉And a church was built in his name👈,
the 👉Church of Paulus👈, famous in Damascus, from the time it was opened by the companions, may Allah bless them, until it was destroyed.👈
Al-Lah permitted Church's to be built in the name of Al-Lah! The hypocrisy and blatant contradiction!
And Isa is the one who is been invoked as Al-Lah!
Al-Bab Fi-Ulum Al-Kitab, by Abu Hafs Al-Hanbali Al-Ni’mani (D. 775H)
(We sent to them two) Wahab said: Their names are John and
👉Paul.👈 (But they denied them so we strengthened them) with a (third) messenger and he is Simon, and Wahab said: The two messengers are Sadiq and Saduq and the third 👉Shalum👈. And 👉Allah added the message to him, because E’esa (upon him blessing peace) sent them with his (Almighty’s) command.👈
And it is said: this verse was revealed regarding the 👉Messengers of E’esa👈 (upon him peace and blessings).
👉Ibn Ishaq said: E’esa sent them👈 from the apostles and followers, 👉Peter👈 and
👉Paul👈 to Rome.
👉And Andrew and Matthew👈 to the land whose people eat people. Thomas to the land of Babylon from the land of the east.
👉Philip👈 to Cartagina which is Africa. And 👉Jonas👈 to Daqsus village of the people of the cave. And 👉Jacob👈 to Jerusalem which is the holy house.
And 👉Ibn Tilma👈 to Arabia which is the land of Hijaz.
And 👉Simon👈 to the land of Barbar. And Judah… to and around Alexandria. 👉Allah supported them with proofs and they became (Dominant) i.e. high, from his saying: I appeared on the wall, that is, I raised it.👈
You can't risk disputing or rejecting any of these names or their publications!
And notice they're messengers of BOTH Isa & Al-Lah (shirk)!
1
-
1
-
1
-
@toby7936
And dont even try appealing to the word/name Al-Lah, Al-Lah is a name not a/the title "god", same as Isa isn't Jesus Christ!.....
1 - Exodus 3:15 - Arabic translation!.....
وقال الله ايضا لموسى هكذا تقول لبني اسرائيل
👈يهوه👉 اله آبائكم اله ابراهيم واله اسحق واله يعقوب ارسلني اليكم. هذا اسمي الى الابد وهذا ذكري الى دور فدور.
Show me where ٱللَّهِ refers to ٱللَّهِ as يهوه (Jehovah)!
9:29 Al-Lah affirms that Al-Lah isn't Yahweh, if so, then Al-Lah wouldn't need to include Al-Lah in the verse, only Muhammad would be the discrepancy!
2 - Where in the Quran does it mention يسوع المسيح (Yasue Al-Masih (Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah))!?!
3 - Where in the Bible is there mention of Esau/Isa the Levite Son of Maryam, nephew of Moses (19:28 & 66:12)!?!....
4 - Where in the Bible does it state Jesus Christ to be known by the name Esau/Isa and to be from the tribe of Levi!?!
5 - How can Isa/Esau be Jesus Christ when Isa/Esau is hanging around with an injil during the time of Moses (7155-157)!?!
Ahmed Deedat - The Choice Vol 1 & 2 - Page 52
Deedat claims Isa is a translation of Esau NOT Yeshua!
Sheikh Ahmed Musa Jibril
Life Of Isa
Page 1
Prophet Isa's Mentioned is noted in 10 different situations in the Quran. There is even an entire chapter (surah) named after Isa's mother, Maryam alyaha salam, as well as his grandparents Al-Imran alayahum asalam, who were chosen over all mankind. This Surat, Surat Al-Imran also reveals the story of Maryam alyaha salam, it outlines a description of her lineage and upbringing. It also relates the pure conception and birth of Isa alayhe salam.
1
-
@toby7936
Are you starting to get the picture, starting to realise, I'm not some ignorant that you can spew this Da'if Taqiyya Bid'ah Deedat/Naik script at and think it'll help you, I've been exposing your cult for years now, and I've done my research, or as Yasir Qadhi likes to call it "a deep dive", so trust me when I say, you need to up your game and do a whole lot better than this, I'm undefeated and irrefutable, and that's not arrogance, that's confidence and fact!....
And I'm still waiting for the evidence and proof regarding Jesus supposedly been incarnate with a written Gospel at the time of Moses, Where's the proof!?! 😂
1
-
@toby7936
Look at you, you're quite the little hypocrite aren't you, appealing to strawmen constantly and consistently......
I never appealed to ibn kathir regarding Paul as the point and benchmark regarding our scripture,
So that's a strawman right there!...
And you've now proven my initial point and case that you Muslims reject your Quran and sources when we Christians are using what they actually state to expose you all amd your cult!
Ibn kathir has rejected the Quran if he claims that the injil was corrupted at the time of Constantine, and he got historical facts wrong, Quran and Hadiths claim in 7th century the injil was authentic, valid, trustworthy, uncorrupted!....
Furthermore, you've rejected a messenger of Al-Lah by rejecting Paul, because as I've already pointed out, the injil is the entire Bible including Paul, multiple Tafsirs, including Qurtubi and Tabari along with ibn kathir and many others all affirm pual to be a messenger of Isa and Al-Lah, and if you reject a single messenger then you reject all including Muhammad!....
So right now, you've just disbelieved multiple times, you're triggering 4:137 and thereby become an rejected apostate,
So who's now right, ibn kathir and you, or the Quran and Hadiths!?!...
Now as for your second response...
1 - I never asked if it mentions Al-Lah, I asked where does Al-Lah refer to Al-Lah as Yahweh, you can't provide the Quranic verse, so your strawman fails, and you've proven that Al-Lah can't be and isn't Yahweh, so Al-Lah isn't the God of Abraham, the prophets/Apostles, our scripture, or us, which 9:29 proves, and 9:29 exposes the contradiction in 5:72, and 5:72 doesn't mention Yasue Al-Masih!....As I said, Al-Lah wouldn't need mentioning in 9:29 if 5:72 was what we are falsely claimed of! 😂 🤣
So that's 4:82 triggered!
2 & 3 - already exposed by 1, with elaboration, you've just affirmed that the Quran gets its genealogy from the Bible, but Bible affirms Jesus Christ, the Messiah, comes from Judah not Levi, and that Jesus Christ wasn't called isa/Esau, and wasn't a nephew to Moses or a Levite, so Isa can't be Jesus Christ!......
Who is Isa!?! 😂 🤣
4 - you've just rejected the Quran again, 2:89 affirms the Bible is a criterion for you to appeal to if in doubt, and you've affirmed that the injil is the entire Bible, including Paul!
And you've just proven that because Isa/Esau isn't a reference for Jesus in the Bible, again, Isa can't be Jesus Christ! 😂 🤣
And the above points refute your defamatory number 5, and expose and prove the point and issues with Deedat's claim (6)!
See how your tap dancing has got you and your cult exposed and busted! 😂 🤣 🤣
1
-
1
-
1
-
@aliakoum2181
Abdool, your desperate attempt backfires as a paradoxical oxymoron!....
If the burden of proof is on Chris for claiming ibn fibbin ketchup footnote is lying on the grounds that there's no proof/documentation of the claim made by ibn fibbin ketchup footnote that the event took place, then by default ibn fibbin footnote is too a claimant and therefore by default the burden of proof Chris requested is justified, valid, and on ibn fibbin ketchup footnote initially,
And the fact you've claimed he doesn't need to prove anything, then neither does Chris, all Chris needs to do is point out the fact that there's no record/documentation to substantiate ibn fibbin ketchup footnote's claim!....
If there's no proof, nothing to support/prove ibn fibbin ketchup footnote's claim, then he's a liar!....
That's all the proof and evidence Chris needs, it's now for ibn fibbin ketchup footnote to prove his claim or remain exposed and outed as a liar!
1
-
1
-
@fatyoutubepanda
That's a strawman, please, for your sake, don't do it!....
I didn't claim Shamsi to be the mastermind!
I didn't claim the source of the incited hatred and violence in the cult and sources comes from Shamsi!
Shamsi got the abdools riled up over Hatun specifically, and incited violence with his own mouth against Hatun, thereby targeting her, he didn't quote a cultlamic source when he targeted Hatun, he spoke of his own opinion, perspective and viewpoint on how Hatun should be treated, and his opinion and view is all good in cultlam, but doesn't change the fact it's his opinion and view which is the incitement and instigation!
So where Shamsi and all these abdools are sourcing such conduct from is irrelevant to the point, I'm talking about WHO incited and instigated the violence against Hatun, which is Shamsi, and thereby Shamsi is the source and cause via his incitement as to why that individual targeted Hatun!.....All the Christians offend because they all expose cultlam in debates, yet it's only Hatun that's been stabbed as a result of Shamsi and his mouth!
Think it through, in a court of law, you think if you publicly started stating in your opinion someone should be harmed, and someone harms the one you publicly state should be harmed, and both you and the one who harmed the person you publicly targeted believe that you have the right to harm that person based on an ideology,
You are still the instigator and incitor on the grounds that there's reasonable suspicion, probable cause, and proven motive based on your statements, and there's no evidence the individual had any intention or pre meditation to act before you spoke, but shortly after you did, the individual acted and tried to do what you incited and instigated!
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Wrong! It's a translation, big difference!....
Go on, prove me wrong, provide the name of the "interprator"!....
And your entire source catalogue is nothing but interpretations!....
Whose interpretation do you recite, Hafs, Warsh, etc!?!
Which out of Hafs and Warsh preserved the quran verbatim in 21:4, did Al-Lah quote mo post statement and that makes mo an Al-Lah alongside Lah, or, did Lah command mo to state the statement, can't claim same meaning, one's a quotation, one's a command, so, which is it!?!
Also, 4:157, who's speaking in this verse, I hear it's Al-Lah, but Qurtubi says you're all guilty of shirk!?!
And still waiting, what/who is "Al-Ra"!?!
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
@quintessence3991
Actually, you came and made the claim that the Bible proves the Bible,
so the burden of proof is upon you, so, come, bring it, Where's your proof!?! 😂
Now, you said you can answer anything if we provide proof, so, just to clarify, are you muslim, would you be able to answer my questions if I can provide proof our scripture is legit, aswel as the early Church fathers, and Christianity in its entirety!?!
1
-
@quintessence3991
Now now, ad hominems are a clear and evident sign one has lost the debate! 😂
You've not actually provided any sort of discrepancy or refutation to my understanding!.....
You admit sarcasm, again, sarcasm is irrelevant!....
You stated what you stated to try and assert a logical fallacy where there's none!....
But you've not stopped to think it through and realise that by doing this, you've made an indirect admission, that you believe that the quran does prove the quran!
And I know you're a muslim, it's obvious and evident by your responses, you reject our scripture, both OT and NT, which by default dictates and necessitates you reject the Torah/Tanakh, but you claim you believe in Jesus, so,
You're not Jewish, not a Christian (Obvs), and you're not an atheist/agnostic.....Because if you were then you'd have no problem stating proudly/confidently you're not a muslim, you're an.....
And the fact you're trying to avoid answering, trying to hide what you are, dictates and necessitates worry and concern that your own sources go against you/Islam, and that I know what you don't!
So, still waiting for your proof/evidence,
And I've offered proof/evidence, just waiting for the answer, are you muslim, don't you want the proof/evidence you're demanding!?! 😂
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
@FormerKafir
Pot calling the kettle....!
Your cult, the doctrine, your incoherent contradictory scrapbook, hadiths, tafsirs, are nothing but Taqiyya Bid'ah pick n mix!
You all try to cherry pick verses from the Bible to claim they're true/authentic/valid when you can apply Taqiyya, but any verses that expose and bust your cult and incoherent scrapbook you then claim corruption, even though your incoherent scrapbook, hadiths, tafsirs, mainstream popular accepted credited scholars, all affirm the authenticity of our Scripture, ibn Kathir even affirms Christianity, and the early Churchfathers, which includes their works/publications by default!
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Haha, you're struggling and desperately clutching at straws now Alonzo!......
You're claiming that each of the hypostasis are Triune in order to the 3 Hypostasis to be Triune, that's paradoxically oxymoronic!
Furthermore, your Al-Lah doesn't dispute the concept of Triunity, only whether the concept applies to Al-Lah, but who cares, Al-Lah has nothing to do with the Trinity anyway, and if Al-Lah has nothing to do with the Trinity, then your Al-Lah, mo, quran, are busted!
1
-
1
-
1
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Your question is so flawed it's hilarious!....you're appealing to Modalism like 5:17 & 72, wrong!....
Go on, explain how us saying 3 Hypostasis unified by 1 Divine Nature/Substance/Esscence dictates and necessitates 3 independant Divine Hypostasis being 1 Divine Hypostasis in order to be 1!?!
If there's only 1 Divine hypostasis then regardless of the number of distinct hypostasis claimed in regards to the Divinity, the Divinity always remains as 1 (singular), so it would still be the fact and case that there's one single Divinity (god), Modalists believe in 1 god different modes,
You all believe your god unifies and is one/oneness, so, your logic now goes against you, you cannot claim tawheed/unification/oneness, because that by your logic now dictates and necessitates independant multiplicity, so there's now 99 divinitie attributes and Al-Lah, and your Hadiths affirm these are all independant parts, so, you now have 100 Al-Lahs, oh, but wait, we all have at least one of these divine attributes, so, from Adam to date, every single human hypostasis is another to add to the total number of Al-Lahs,
I'm Al-Lah, your Al-Lah, CP is Al-Lah, David Wood is Al-Lah etc etc!
What a dilemma!
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
@FormerKafir
Also, by acknowledging that "The Father" is God, that proves Al-Lah isn't!
7:155-157, Isa and the injil are around during the time of Moses!
Do you seriously believe Jesus Christ was incarnate on earth carrying a book called injil with Disciples, and Christians during the time of Moses!?!
Do you seriously believe that the god of Abraham is the chief god of Abraham's people, the people of Ur, as 6:78 claims and declared by Al-Lah to be Al-Lah!?!
I challenge you right now to go and search who the chief god of Abraham's people was, and that's the name of your god and who your god is, then come back and show me that god in the Bible as "the God/Our God/the God of Abraham, Moses, Jacob, David, Solomon etc etc".
1
-
1
-
1
-
@FormerKafir
No problem, it states and I quote...
"Al-Lah AND (Arabic wa (conjunctive)) the angels pray".
So, the catch 22, either both are praying to another, or both are co equal, which is it!?!
And if Triunity means plurality, so does tawheed, it's just more problematic for you, because your entire premise depends on the literal hypostatic divinity fallacy instead of the Nature/Substance/Esscence unity that makes the Hypostasis Divine!
Divinity makes God God!
1 Divinity (Nature, Substance, Esscence) unifies 3 Hypostasis, all Hypostasis have 1 same Divinity by default (unification)!
How many Divinities are there!?!
Your Lah,
1 literal "divine" hypostasis!
99 "divine attributes" totalling 100 divinities "unified" into the 1 single "divine" hypostasis!
100 "divinities" in total!.....
Again, Divinity is what makes God God, so, how many gods is your Lah!?!
1
-
@FormerKafir
Also, because our God is Triune (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit) when we pray to one hypostasis we pray to all by default, so that didn't exactly work in your favour now did it!?!
You say the Trinity was made up 400 years after Jesus, well ibn Kathir as just one example refutes you in his 3:56 Arabic Tafsir, henotonky affirms, authenticates, and validates Christianity, but also our Scripture, and the early Churchfathers (their works/publications too by default)!
Even ibn Taymiyyah affirms our Scripture is legit!
So does the quran!
So do your hadiths!
But there's one problem you're still stuck with!......
7:155-157, prove Jesus was in the flesh with a scripture during Moses time!
Prove Jesus worshipped Nanna (6:78 & 36:1)!
1
-
@FormerKafir
Haha, your quran, hadiths, and tafsirs all claim our scripture is legit, your quran claims the injil was with Isa during the time of Moses (7:155-157), prove it!
And because my God is Triune all worship goes to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, if you understood the Trinity you'd have known that, so, seen as you've proven you don't know or understand the Trinity, you're in no position to dictate what the Trinity is or isn't, it's vice versa!
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
@AlonzoHarris235
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and here's why.....
The Triune God is the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit!
If the Trinity is the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, then Jesus cannot be God alongside the Trinity!
Your logic also dictates that the Father would be Triune as a single Hypostasis and the same would have to apply to the Holy Spirit!
So, your entire premise is based on the claim/logic that triunity means that the Father should be Triune, Jesus should be Triune, and the Holy Spirit should be Triune, in order to claim the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are a Triune God (singular/1)!
That's hilarious! 😂🤣🤣....
So, you've now just claimed and appealed to 3 triune gods unified in order to be one triune god, and your version of a Triune god has now 9 hypostasis, which completely contradicts Triunity in every way, shape, and form!
And this is the premise of your entire claim! 😂🤣
1
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Actually, Triunity proves Jesus can pray to the Father, it's not an issue when God is Triune, like I said, it's problematic for you lot!.....
Are you disputing the Arabic wa being conjunctive, you can check any and all academic sources, did hijab get it wrong when debating David Wood, he said....
"Al-Lah AND the angels pray 'FOR' not 'To'!".
He never disputed the wa, he disputed whether it was "for" or "to" in the Arabic!
Go on, say hijab was wrong, and Mansur, admit they don't know what they're talking about!
And that all dictionaries and lexicons are in error!
Bring all the proof if you're confident in your discrepancy/claim! 😂
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
@northstar1690
You don't know Jack diddly squat about plants!....
A male plant flowers in order to release pollen to pollinate female plants!
A female plant flowers in order to be pollinated, because the plant is mature enough to produce offspring (seeds (children))!
The verse/translation states, "passing the flower of her age", this dictates no longer being in her prime, like say at 40 you wouldn't be in your prime like when you were 20,
The fact the "flower" would be referred to as a virgin, meaning untouched by man, this is irrelevant in regards to age/maturity, so the verse is stating that if a mature woman who has remained chaste but is past her prime and a she/a man wish to marry, then there's no sin in doing so!....
So nature has just exposed and busted your fallaciousness, ignorance, and ultracrepidarianism as does 1 Corinthians 7:38 exposes and refutes your fallacy!
Now, 4:3 & 65:4 are explicitly clear, you can marry "orphans", and before you try it, yes, the Arabic uses the word for the prepubescent!
1
-
1
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Oh really Alonzo, the evidence proves different!.....
Ask any of my brothers and sisters here if they agree with me that we are more than happy to discuss every single part of our scripture, answer any and all questions, and if we can't, direct/refer someone to where best obtain the answers they seek, because our God, our doctrine, our Scripture Commands and dictates we do so!....
Go on, try and deny we're Commanded to preach, to study our Scripture in order that we can correctly preach, and answer questions!
It's you lot that run from your own book/sources, doctrine, questions, points/claims!....
And now, you and I can put this to the test, I'm the Christian, and I'm right here ready to go, let's see if you're ready, actually can stand your ground!....
Ready!?!
1
-
@northstar1690
So hold on!.....
You're claiming that Deuteronomy 21:10-11 is our God Commanding/Speaking!?!😂🤣🤣.........
"Matthew Henry Commentary
By this law a soldier is allowed to marry his captive if he pleased. For the hardness of their hearts Moses gave them this permission, lest, if they had not had liberty given them to marry such, they should have taken liberty to defile themselves with them, and by such wickedness the camp would have been troubled."
And your response dictates that if a god, or a claimed prophet made/implemented such laws/commands as you described, would be unacceptable today, as much as the 7th century, as much as the time of Moses because you're disputing the law during Moses' time!
Three words for you!.....
Right hand possession!.....
You've just exposed and rejected your own god, leader, cult, doctrine, and book!
Well done, can you say "apostate is me!". 😂🤣
1
-
1
-
@northstar1690
That has got absolutely nothing to do with my comment!
Now you say the quran honours all the prophets of Al-Lah, and then claim it clears all the prophets of Al-Lah from what's attributed to them in our Scripture......
Interesting!......
Show me one single Prophet from the Bible that's mentioned in both the quran and Bible as a prophet of Nanna (6:78)!
Show me one single verse in the quran that mentions Jesus Christ/Yahweh!
And 22:52 actually dictates and necessitates that all the prophets of Al-Lah were misguided, and the same verse contradicts 39:37, and that triggers 4:82!
So, your quran not only defeats itself, but also it condemns all its claimed prophets!
Oh, and it doesn't honour all prophets, can you provide the names, provide the scriptures, and which prophet went to which nation in regards to the claimed 124,000, and does the 124,000 include the named prophets in the quran, or are they in addition to the 124,000!?! 🤔
1
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Oh really Alonzo, so, you're appealing to hypostatic divinity in order for your claim to stand, as in, you believe that the physical hypostasis is divine in itself, and that applies to Al-Lah by default, so,
Al-Lah has a divine hypostasis, but also divine attributes, so, your Al-Lah is multiple divinities in one divine hypostasis!
That doesn't apply to the Trinity (Trinity (1 Divine Nature/Substance/Esscence that unifies all 3 Hypostasis, and that Divine Nature/Substance/Esscence is what makes all 3 Hypostasis Divine)), I challenge you you to prove your logic and refute the Triune Logic, seen as you've made the claim!
And, 15:51-66 dictates that your Al-Lah is either 3-4,which is it!?! 😂
1
-
@SaadI0I
See how quick your explanation has changed from it was 7th century to the times of Moses and Jesus, however, you forgot about the other verses I've referenced, and they affirm present day 7th century, not as you're trying to claim, so who/what is right, you, or the quran, and also, here's how your Taqiyya has led you to an even worse dilemma!.....
7:155-157 affirms that the injil was from the time of Moses, where the injil is, again, you affirmed it, Isa was, and then there's the fact that there's no mention of Jesus Christ in the entire quran, show me a single verse stating Yasue Al-Masih!
1
-
@SaadI0I
First off, I don't care which or what sect you are, you're Muslim!
Second of all, Google schmoogle!..
Where in the Quran does it mention يسوع المسيح (Yasue Al-Masih (Yeshua the Messiah))!?!....
Ahmed Deedat - The Choice Vol 1 & 2 - Page 52
Deedat claims Isa is a translation of Esau NOT Yeshua!
Where in the Bible is there mention of Esau/Isa the Levite Son of Maryam, nephew of Moses (19:28 & 66:12)!?!....
Where in the Bible does it state Jesus Christ to be known by the name Esau/Isa and to be from the tribe of Levi!?!
How can Isa/Esau be Jesus Christ when Isa/Esau is hanging around with an injil during the time of Moses (7155-157)!?!
Sheikh Ahmed Musa Jibril
Life Of Isa
Page 1
Prophet Isa's Mentioned is noted in 10 different situations in the Quran. There is even an entire chapter (surah) named after Isa's mother, Maryam alyaha salam, as well as his grandparents Al-Imran alayahum asalam, who were chosen over all mankind. This Surat, Surat Al-Imran also reveals the story of Maryam alyaha salam, it outlines a description of her lineage and upbringing. It also relates the pure conception and birth of Isa alayhe salam.
Isa/Esau can't be Jesus Christ, wrong Name, wrong time, wrong tribe!....
Who is Isa/Esau!?!
And you don't respect us or our religion, you've done nothing but blaspheme against my God and disrespect our scripture with your fallacious Taqiyya!
1
-
1
-
1
-
@Michael-ec4qb
4:3
وَإِنۡ خِفۡتُمۡ أَلَّا تُقۡسِطُواْ فِي 👈ٱلۡيَتَٰمَىٰ👉 فَٱنكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ ٱلنِّسَآءِ مَثۡنَىٰ وَثُلَٰثَ وَرُبَٰعَۖ فَإِنۡ خِفۡتُمۡ أَلَّا تَعۡدِلُواْ فَوَٰحِدَةً أَوۡ مَا مَلَكَتۡ أَيۡمَٰنُكُمۡۚ ذَٰلِكَ أَدۡنَىٰٓ أَلَّا تَعُولُواْ
English Transliteration
Wa-in khiftum alla tuqsitoo
👉feealyatama👈 fankihoo ma tabalakum mina annisa-i mathna wathulathawarubaAAa fa-in khiftum alla taAAdiloo fawahidatanaw ma malakat aymanukum thalika adnaalla taAAooloo
Ya-Ta-Miim = orphan, fatherless, become isolated or lonely, solitary, weary, jaded, become widow, become without father
👉before puberty/maturity.👈
yatim n.m. (pl. yatama) 2:83, 2:177, 2:215, 2:220, 4:2, 👉4:3👈, 4:6, 4:8, 4:10, 4:36, 4:127, 4:127, 6:152, 8:41, 17:34, 18:82, 59:7, 76:8, 89:17, 90:15, 93:6, 93:9, 107:2
Sahih International
And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the 👉orphan girls👈, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].
Ibn Kathir Tafsir (4:3)
بِسْمِ اللّٰهِ الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيْمِ
وَاِنۡ خِفۡتُمۡ اَلَّا تُقۡسِطُوۡا فِى الۡيَتٰمٰى فَانْكِحُوۡا مَا طَابَ لَـكُمۡ مِّنَ النِّسَآءِ مَثۡنٰى وَثُلٰثَ وَرُبٰعَ ۚ فَاِنۡ خِفۡتُمۡ اَلَّا تَعۡدِلُوۡا فَوَاحِدَةً اَوۡ مَا مَلَـكَتۡ اَيۡمَانُكُمۡ ؕ ذٰ لِكَ اَدۡنٰٓى اَلَّا تَعُوۡلُوۡا
And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].
وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تُقْسِطُواْ فِي الْيَتَامَى فَانكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاء
And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry (other) women of your choice,
Allah commands, when one of you is the caretaker of a female orphan and he fears that he might not give her a dowry that is suitable for women of her status, he should marry other women, who are plenty as Allah has not restricted him.
Al-Bukhari recorded that Aishah said,
"A man was taking care of a female orphan and he married her, although he did not desire to marry her. That girl's money was mixed with his, and he was keeping her portion from her. Afterwards, this Ayah was revealed about his case;
وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تُقْسِطُواْ
If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly..."
Al-Bukhari recorded that Urwah bin Az-Zubayr said that;
he asked Aishah about the meaning of the statement of Allah,
وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تُقْسِطُواْ فِي الْيَتَامَى
(If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls).
She said, "O my nephew! This is about the orphan girl who lives with her guardian and shares his property. Her wealth and beauty may tempt him to marry her without giving her an adequate dowry which might have been given by another suitor. So, such guardians were forbidden to marry such orphan girls unless they treated them justly and gave them the most suitable dowry; otherwise they were ordered to marry woman besides them."
Aishah further said,
"After that verse, the people again asked the Messenger of Allah (about marriage with orphan girls), so Allah revealed the Ayah,
وَيَسْتَفْتُونَكَ فِي النِّسَاء
(They ask your instruction concerning the women..)." (4:127)
She said,
"Allah's statement in this Ayah,
وَتَرْغَبُونَ أَن تَنكِحُوهُنَّ
(yet whom you desire to marry) (4:127) refers to the guardian who does not desire to marry an orphan girl under his supervision because she is neither wealthy nor beautiful. The guardians were forbidden to marry their orphan girls possessing property and beauty without being just to them, as they generally refrain from marrying them (when they are neither beautiful nor wealthy)."
The Permission to Marry Four Women
Allah's statement,
مَثْنَى
وَثُلَثَ وَرُبَاعَ
two or three, or four,
means, marry as many women as you like, other than the orphan girls, two, three or four.
We should mention that Allah's statement in another Ayah,
جَاعِلِ الْمَلَايِكَةِ رُسُلًا أُولِي أَجْنِحَةٍ مَّثْنَى وَثُلَاثَ وَرُبَاعَ
(Who made the angels messengers with wings, - two or three or four), (35:1), does not mean that other angels do not have more than four wings, as there are proofs that some angels do have more wings. Yet, men are prohibited from marrying more than four wives, as the Ayah decrees, since the Ayah specifies what men are allowed of wives, as Ibn Abbas and the majority of scholars stated. If it were allowed for them to have more than four wives, the Ayah would have mentioned it.
Imam Ahmad recorded that Salim said that his father said that;
Ghilan bin Salamah Ath-Thaqafi had ten wives when he became Muslim, and the Prophet said to him, "Choose any four of them (and divorce the rest)."
During the reign of Umar, Ghilan divorced his remaining wives and divided his money between his children.
When Umar heard news of this, he said to Ghilan, "I think that the devil has conveyed to your heart the news of your imminent death, from what the devil hears during his eavesdropping. It may as well be that you will not remain alive but for a little longer. By Allah! You will take back your wives and your money, or I will take possession of this all and will order that your grave be stoned as is the case with the grave of Abu Righal (from Thamud, who was saved from their fate because he was in the Sacred Area. But, when he left it, he was tormented like they were)."
Ash-Shafi`i, At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Ad-Daraqutni and Al-Bayhaqi collected this Hadith up to the Prophet's statement, "Choose any four of them."
Only Ahmad collected the full version of this Hadith.
Therefore, had it been allowed for men to marry more than four women at the same time, the Prophet would have allowed Ghilan to keep more than four of his wives since they all embraced Islam with him. When the Prophet commanded him to keep just four of them and divorce the rest, this indicated that men are not allowed to keep more than four wives at a time under any circumstances. If this is the case concerning those who already had more than four wives upon embracing Islam, then this ruling applies even more so to marrying more than four.
Marrying Only One Wife When One Fears He Might not Do Justice to His Wives
Allah's statement,
فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ
But if you fear that you will not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or what your right hands possess.
The Ayah commands, if you fear that you will not be able to do justice between your wives by marrying more than one, then marry only one wife, or satisfy yourself with only female captives, for it is not obligatory to treat them equally, rather it is recommended. So if one does so, that is good, and if not, there is no harm on him.
In another Ayah, Allah said,
وَلَن تَسْتَطِيعُواْ أَن تَعْدِلُواْ بَيْنَ النِّسَأءِ وَلَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ
You will never be able to do perfect justice between wives even if it is your ardent desire. (4:129)
Allah said,
ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَعُولُواْ
That is nearer to prevent you from Ta`ulu,
meaning, from doing injustice.
Ibn Abi Hatim, Ibn Marduwyah and Abu Hatim Ibn Hibban, in his Sahih, recorded that Aishah said that,
the Prophet said that the Ayah,
ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَعُولُواْ
(That is nearer to prevent you from Ta`ulu, means, from doing injustice.
However, Ibn Abi Hatim said that his father said that this Hadith to the Prophet is a mistake, for it should be attributed to Aishah not the Prophet.
Ibn Abi Hatim reported from Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Abu Malik, Abu Razin, An-Nakhai, Ash-Sha`bi, Ad-Dahhak, Ata Al-Khurasani, Qatadah, As-Suddi and Muqatil bin Hayyan that;
Ta`ulu means to deviate (from justice).
Giving the Dowry is Obligatory
Allah says;
1
-
1
-
1
-
@Michael-ec4qb
Thanks, I'm over the initial symptoms, just shaking off the aftermath!....
And the info proves child marriage is commanded and sanctioned in the Quran,
So, that's the point, and God would never sanction or command such evil!....
Now the question you could ask is if the opponent agrees that child marriage is wrong, approach it like that, because your intent is for the Muslim to realise this is in their Quran, and majority of Muslims you meet, you ask them that, of course they're going to agree it's wrong, evil,
Then you show them the info, and this proves that Aisha too was a little girl, she wasn't mature for her age as they try and claim, because little girls are being defined as adult women!
There's plenty of Muslims that when they realise they've been misled and lied to, and they in themselves can't ever condone such evil, end up apostasising!
1
-
@Michael-ec4qb
I'd say start with the Quran reference and the Arabic root dictionary, that alone proves the point,
The Tafsir supports the point!
So start with 4:3, you show that, then most likely the hiding behind Arabic game will start, so you then shut that down with the dictionary,
And finally the Tafsir affirms the point,
All in all, you prove the point and what the Quran says, that the Arabic and translation are accurate, and the Doctrine in the Tafsir supports and affirms it all!
There's no refuting it, it's right there, so the Muslim has to deal with that as fact, and assuming they're a decent human being, they will be disgusted, and it's for them then to deal with the issue exposed,
Do they want to follow a cult like this, follow a man like Muhammad who married 6yr old Aisha, consummated the marriage at 9, and both Al-Lah and Muhammad are saying go marry prepubescent orphans!
The only other way it can go is the Muslim actually agrees and is pro child marriage, and then that's an admission to being a risk and danger to children, a paedo-phile!
1
-
@Michael-ec4qb
Brother I've had a thought, now because you mentioned approaching Dawah stalls to debate Muslims, I think it would help to maybe first get a feel for, and an experience of debating Muslims in a comments section,
Now what I'm more than happy to do is, if you find a video and a comment you think would be worthy of debating the statement, I'd happily have a debate with the muslim so you can watch and see, get an idea how to debate them, and then when you felt ready, you could start debating them, and that would give you alot of confidence when then approaching them at Dawah stalls, because you'd have a feel for their script, and be able to easily start exposing it and islam!
1
-
1
-
@Michael-ec4qb
As long as I receive a notification I will always reply, I say that only because I'm only on my mobile, and on the odd occasion, usually if there's a long thread, I don't always get the notification!
I'd say if you at anytime didn't get a response in an hour or two, then maybe give me a nudge comment, and I'm in UK, just so if you're in a different time zone, then you know if it's say really late at night, or early hours of the morning, obvs might be asleep,
They're the only reasons as to why I may be delayed or not responded straight back in an hour or two!
1
-
1
-
@Michael-ec4qb
Here's a nice easy one for you to use brother, you'll have some fun with this one!......
Surah Zilzal tafseer
Hadith related by Imam Suyuti which states:
“When God Almighty wanted to create Himself, He created the horse first and let it gallop till it sweated. Then He created Himself from its sweat.
Abu Hurayra narrated:
It was said, “O Messenger of God, from what is our Lord?
He said, “From water not of earth, nor of the heavens. He created a horse and made it run. It sweated, and he created himself from that sweat.”
How did Al-Lah create the horse that sweat to create Al-Lah if Al-Lah is one, what was Al-Lah creating and what was Al-Lah while creating Al-Lah,
How Al-Lah can create Al-Lah Al-Lah's self and be eternal, uncreated! Was Al-Lah the horse and then created Al-Lah from Al-Lah's own sweat, does this sound befitting for a god that's one, alone, uncreated, eternal!?!
Was the horse not eternal too if it was created before Al-Lah in order for Al-Lah to be created from the horse sweat, who created the horse!?! 🤔 😂 🤣
Now they'll outright reject the Hadiths as false, fabrications, and the second they do, then they've just discredited the entire chains of narration claim as untrustworthy, anything and everything becomes suspect, questionable, and that includes the Quran, because the "perfect preservation" claim is dependant on a flawless chains of narration! 😂 🤣
1
-
@AlonzoHarris235
Well Alonzo, you actually ended up proving that Al-Lah has nada to do with the Trinity because Al-Lah isn't the Father, and you've acknowledged that the Father and the Son aren't one and the same hypostasis, so 5:17 & 5:72 are both in error twice!
And if Al-Lah has nothing to do with the Trinity, then why should we care whether Al-Lah is one or not, or you care if our God is Triune!?!
Are you seriously appealing to the logic thinking you can dispute the Trinity, so that we apsoatsise, and then somehow are going to accept Al-Lah, and believe Al-Lah is a different god and still believe in our scripture, but believe our scripture is corrupted, while your logic is unfounded in the quran/quranic doctrine, because your god in the quran is trying to claim to be our god, and that our scripture is legit in order to believe the claim, that we should be able to find Ahmad explicitly in our scripture in order to believe the claims mo made as your Al-Lah, that Isa was crucified and resurrected during the time of Moses, as a Levite, and this is meant to be Jesus Christ, who had an injil book that no one has ever seen/read, and had followers called Nasara or Christians, and all Prophets between Moses and Jesus Christ were all around during the time of Moses!?!.....
Come on, seriously, you want me to believe either, any, all of this!?!
Ok, no problem, just one small request.....PROVE IT! 😂
1
-
Shamsi lacks the intelligence, intellect, and education to debate us let alone teach anyone about anything but how to be a comical ignorant ultracrepidarian!
When he goes on about our God's incarnate Human Nature being born, well duh!....We're in the image of our God, so our God became incarnate in His Own Image, and the incarnation being His Human Nature, well for His incarnate Human Nature to be, His Human Nature like all humans, was born!....
And shamsi has issue with women's private parts, he refers to birth as unclean, well what does that say about him and his mother, or more so, his fake pagan Sabian born of a Arabian local pagan M to the U to the Tah bicycle (Aminah) who didn't even know who the father of her hell spawn was!?!and the number of times he's said "Your God!" when talking to Christians, just like every other abdool who says the same, they instantly reject quran, their pagan moon god, and their fake pagan Sabian soothsayer! 😂
1