Comments by "JLH" (@Kyarrix) on "The Majority Report w/ Sam Seder"
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@Mrlazerpoint I'm not surprised at the two responses. The disparaging comments seem to be consistent with your preferred sense of humor, attacking anyone who disagrees even if done in a fairly mild and respectful manner. Take a step back and ask what message that sends. You watch this channel suggesting that you are ostensibly left leaning. I am too. The difference between us is that I think and try to adhere to the values you proclaim as yours. It's not okay to suggest that Peterson covets his daughter. Sexual so-called humor of this nature isn't funny, it's stupid and intentionally offensive. There is plenty about Peterson and his daughter to criticize, there is no need for the snickering sniggering innuendo.
When you come across something you disagree with, why do you default to a personal attacks? With respect to your comment, I'm quite grown, grown enough to be able to make jokes about Peterson, who is utterly ridiculous and a bad faith actor, without suggesting that he wants his daughter. This kind of humor weakens the point and it makes us look ugly. Why would you assume that I wasn't grown or that I needed to grow up? Because I said something you disagreed with? Do you see the problem with this approach?
When you react the way you did, you portray the left as narrow and intolerant. Anyone disagreeing is to be attacked. The other guy below you was even more direct. He simply said "f you." If I found something funny and you disagreed I might be interested in understanding why. After understanding it I would be free to reconsider or agree to disagree. It doesn't make me hopeful to encounter reactions like yours. We (correctly) view the majority of those on the right as intolerant and narrow minded, unwilling to think and grow. It's disheartening in the extreme to find the same behavior on our side.
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@stupidkitty84 I am militantly indifferent to what you believe or do not believe. You are not a true blue Bernie supporter if you are bashing Elizabeth Warren on the internet. Sanders does not want people to idolize him or lionize him. Not me, us. And Warren is, in substantial part, on the same side we are.
Neither should you be giving money you can't afford. If you are indeed a single working mother of three kids with health issues (and I will do you the courtesy of believing you, something that you have not afforded me) you need your money for the care of yourself and your children. We don't want people to donate what they can't afford. My background? I'm also a woman and an attorney. I understand health issues, I won't go into why but I've had a long hard fight and I'll continue to have that battle.
You attacked me without knowing anything about me. This is how our side tears itself apart. I like Elizabeth Warren. I respect the journey she's made. She grew up Republican and changed her beliefs because of the unfairness she saw. She has worked hard for others and she has done that work with honesty and honor.
She has long been a friend and supporter of Sanders. I would have worked for her campaign if Bernie hadn't been in it. She has a long-standing reputation as decent and honest and that is why I am not going to attack her or assume that she was lying. Not without additional evidence. By the same token neither am I going to assume that Bernie is lying because I don't believe that he is. Where does that leave me? With a misunderstanding of some kind. Life is complicated and things are often misunderstood. I do not believe that Sanders would have said that a woman is not electable as president. At the same time I'm not sure that a woman is electable this year in this country with all of the sexism, stupidity and ugliness that is running rampant. The point is that we were not there, and given that both of these people have reputations for honesty I'm going to assume that it was a misunderstanding and not that either person is willfully lying.
If you had asked me why I concluded this rather than attacking me as a "concern troll" you would have gotten an entirely different response.
Why am I a Sanders' supporter first? Because Bernie has stood for these ideas for 50 years. Because I have lived in other countries where people have healthcare and I believe it is a necessity, a human right. Because it makes me furious that a handful of people have more wealth than half the population of the country, that corporations have a fiduciary responsibility first to their shareholders and not to their employees or to the greater society at large. That this fiduciary responsibility results in people being paid so little that they end up on food stamps even while working a full-time job. There is so much unfairness that we have to fix. Deaths of despair are at their highest ever, our suicide rate is at its highest since World War II. I could go on for a long time as to the reasons I support Sanders and his platform.
That support though does not mandate my attacking someone else who is substantially on the same side. If you need me to attack Elizabeth Warren to prove that I am on Bernie Sanders' side then I would question your understanding of what it means to be a Sanders' supporter. I'm trying to find a way through this after you have gone out of your way to attack me. I am angry at how the media has portrayed Bernie, there are a lot of things that make me angry and that I find frustrating, but that does not lead me to attack Elizabeth Warren in the ugly and often sexist ways that she is attacked.
Edit: I did not sign off on her claims with regard to his supporters. I do not think it is his responsibility. At the same time there is a strain of sexism in the attacks on her that I find abhorrent. Question someone on the substance of their beliefs, disagree with them because of those beliefs and because of the actions that they take. Calling someone a concern troll and all of the ugliness and sneering that goes on is part of the problem. People will never be persuaded to think or to question their beliefs if they are attacked. I know where the anger comes from, I often feel the same way and sometimes it gets the better of me, as it did in my first response to you.
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@DragonMaiden77 I keep trying to respond to your comment and each time I get so irritated that my response becomes heated.
The idea that someone would change their views because they've been humiliated is ridiculous. No one changes their mind because a group of people with whom they disagree mocks them and laughs at them.
If you think anyone does, you are lacking basic understanding of human nature and psychology. I think the underlying issue is the second thing that you said, that you do not have patience or compassion because there are too many racists out there. Yes, there are. What is your plan then for changing their minds?
The kid is racist, yes. What is your point? That because he is a racist, because this kid has absorbed stupidity from those around him, that he is therefore garbage and should be thrown out? That because of this he deserves whatever ugliness you want to throw at him? I'm trying very hard to be patient with you, and you carry around at least one viewpoint that is wrong and misguided.
We don't crucify people who have absorbed erroneous viewpoints. We educate them. This isn't a seventy-five-year-old, this is a kid who will grow up, get married, have children and live in a community. If you want to change the world and make it a better place you have to educate people, not cause them to double down on their stupidity. I don't think it was in Sam's power to change this kid's mind in one conversation. But he could have planted the seeds. Instead we have half an hour of laughter and mockery that most of his audience enjoyed, but which has the effect of pushing the kid further to the right.
And before you criticize me, I am not suggesting that we do not fight these people. We fight them in every way we can to make the world a better place. But where there are opportunities to change hearts and minds, we do that. We don't sit back smug in our superiority and mock them because all that does is turn people away from us with the net result of worsening the situation. The half an hour of laughter isn't worth it.
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@GodEnderX You are going through a lot of hoops there to make a point that I don't think is relevant to what I said. You said you don't like my analogy but I didn't make one. Perhaps it was a typo or you meant something else? Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease COPD is not "aids" of the lungs. If someone you are answering doesn't know something basic like this they can look it up. I'm very sorry about your father, COPD is difficult for the person suffering and for their family.
Your bender analogy doesn't apply to the situation. Should people have compassion for you? Of course they should. But we have to avoid confusing compassion and excusing bad behavior. If you went on a drug bender that would harm you. Peterson has harmed other people, not just himself. What he has done is far worse than going on a bender. If you went on a drug bender because you were upset about your father being sick, I would have compassion for your situation but it would not excuse actions and bad behavior. For your analogy to apply you would have to do something bad to others while on that bender, let's say you robbed a lot of people to get money for the drugs. I would still have compassion for you and I would want to understand what caused you to do the things that you did. That would have bearing on the punishment. When someone commits a crime their state of mind is relevant. But again, it isn't the point I was making.
I did not say that we should excuse Jordan Peterson for the damaging things he has done. I did not say we should forgive him for the harm he has caused. I think you misunderstood something but I understand why. When I say that the jokes are ugly and should not be made I am not forgiving Peterson nor am I excusing any of the things he has done simply because he is sick. We can have compassion for his situation without in any way viewing him as likable or forgiving the harm he has caused to others. Getting sick doesn't erase that or negate it.
The jokes are wrong because they are ugly. When we mock people this way, the way Michael Brooks frequently does, it taps into the ugliness that lives in us. He does it to encourage the audience to laugh at someone else's expense. This is actually a complicated thing to talk about, it involves psychology and the nature of who we are as people. There is an effect that happens when you laugh at someone else's misfortune again and again and that effect is detrimental to us. When you are led to view others as not worthy of any human compassion, as "other" over time you become more and more callous. The endpoint of that is obvious. That kind of mocking laughter is contagious, it invites the audience to push their better nature away and have a communal sneer at the person who is in that moment the enemy.
I abhor Jordan Peterson. He is intellectually dishonest, a grifter and has caused a lot of harm. The fact that he is sick doesn't change any of that. I put time and effort into convincing people not to buy his books or watch his videos. I have conversations with people about him and I try to explain how he uses psychology and twists it to support his ideology. I lost a good friend to Jordan Peterson's way of thinking. Trust me, I am not excusing or forgiving anything. Having compassion for someone as a human being, saying that ugly "humor" harms all of us is not forgiving or excusing. We harm ourselves when we give in to the urge to degrade others.
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@18skeltor This was 3 years ago, I had to scroll through the entirety of the comments to remember what it was in regard to! I like Sam, I think he is a decent person and well intentioned. I found this video frustrating because you don't change anyone by mocking them.
I'm not perfect, I've mocked people and I have been unkind. Probably too often. It just struck me that someone like that kid, who is still so young is the person you want to try to persuade, someone you won't persuade immediately but who might benefit from the seeds of thought being planted. That's the person you want to treat with a degree of decency and kindness so that they don't double down on their mistaken beliefs.
I understand that it would be a stress reducer to have a fun time laughing but this video struck me as ugly. A crew of people sitting back laughing and mocking someone who absorbed erroneous beliefs from their environment. If we want a decent society, if we want even a chance at persuading people this is not the way to go about it.
As for your comment about following them? This was years ago. Obviously I didn't do that nor would I.
Moreover, you have absolutely no clue as to whether their mind can be changed. The fact that you are so certain that it's not possible puts you in the same camp as they are. One of ignorance and harm. There are plenty of people whose minds are changed over time. Of course it doesn't happen from one conversation, no one thinks it would. The point I was making that apparently eluded you was that rather than plant the seeds, and I hope you understand what that means, they chose to mock him. You don't persuade someone from one conversation but you can create room for questioning. If you think a reasonably intelligent person has no chance whatsoever of ever questioning the things they believe, why are you here? What's the point in anything? That is patently untrue and stupidly nihilistic.
It's work to meet someone where they are and to try to offer them information that would allow them to question the things they believe. It's hard work and it can be both thankless and frustrating. It's work that I'm not doing right now because I'm not being particularly patient with you. I get irritated when people on our side, loosely defined, don't understand that we do harm when we cause people to double down.
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@steik6414 Your argument is disingenuous and you aren't addressing the issue - you are sidelining it and minimizing it. I wasn't sure if this was because you genuinely didn't understand but at this point I'm fairly sure that you do.
Your choice of language is the giveaway and the fact that you aren't addressing any of the points I've been making. I can't help you with that but I can decide to not participate any further and I am making that decision.
You are free to continue to argue that it's just fine and funny to make jokes about an individual lusting after his daughter, that there is no harm in, that it's all for the lols, and funny. You can persuade yourself, as you have already done, that this is a valid position and that you "are afraid" you don't understand the issue.
You aren't being truthful. I know that and so do you. It is not a valid position to take. You also seem to think that your language is subtle - please trust me, it is not.
Nor is "absurd" of me to "allow" (allow?) people to vote in elections but to prefer that they not be exposed to a constant barrage of ugly jokes that are demeaning and damaging. It's absurd that you claim to not understand the difference.
I'm going to guess that you're okay with rape jokes too. Hey, why not, it's funny, right? Holocaust jokes okay with you? By your metric why would they be a problem? Everything is fair game, it's only a "joke" - it doesn't do any harm, right?
Wrong. It does tremendous harm. It is beyond the scope of a comment to try to educate you on the many ways in which this does harm. And I suspect that you already know some of them but are engaging in pretense for some reason. People are formed and charged by the things they are exposed to. So called edgy humor about a man lusting after his daughter is distasteful and offensive, it isn't funny - you want to deride Peterson? There is so much about the man that is awful - take something valid and make jokes about it - do not make puerile smirking jokes about him wanting to screw his daughter. It cheapens the discourse and over time damages those who come back for more.
Is one stupid offensive joke a problem? Not necessarily. A constant barrage of it is an issue. Ask yourself where the line is - where your slippery slope takes you. I don't think that you will because your comments aren't made in good faith.
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No, Sam. In this case I think you're wrong. I am no fan of Meghan McCain's, she's irritating and far too privileged and not but she does have a point. Speaking as another Jewish person, someone who has studied their history and the Holocaust, we know that the use of hypnotized in this context is suspect and should never have been said. I'm not sure if Ilhan Omar is actively anti-Semitic, she does have a history of saying things that suggest it. The right wing hypocrisy notwithstanding it's important to acknowledge that there are serious issues with the things that Omar has said. Maybe it was a coincidence that she used a term that mirrors things used against Jews at the time of the Holocaust, but in the absence of anything additional I'm not going to give her the benefit of the doubt. I am going to reserve judgment while fighting my instinct to find her distasteful. She said some things that by any reasonable standard were objectionable and potentially dangerous, and these were the things for public consumption. Like you, I support Israel although not the right wing government. Anti-Semitism is on the rise for that reason it's important to be very careful, there are plenty of people who confuse Jew and Israeli and are happy to have an excuse to exercise their not so latent anti-semitism.
I would really like it if the other folks who present this with Sam would stop the background cackling. You want to make fun of people who are ridiculous, that's one thing but the background laughter makes you seem like a bunch of teens snickering at someone. It's unappealing and distasteful. Overt mockery should be used sparingly.
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Just stop it. Just stop calling them disgusting time and time again, you know what you're doing, you have to be aware that it is a dog whistle for your supporters. You show a grossly overweight unappealing white woman, and older white man and you call them disgusting, you talk about destroying them, you incite anger and rage.
I hear you carefully walking it back, I hear you saying on a political and power level after you have said destroy them and destroy them and destroy them and they are disgusting, you know what you're doing and it is as bad as what they are doing.
They are ignorant, they are afraid, and they are terribly uneducated. What is your excuse for inciting rage against them? What is your excuse for the pious self-satisfied virtue that you are displaying?
Let's be very clear, I am 100% on our side politically, but this display is abhorrent as theirs is. It's very easy to incite rage by showing an obese person eating in a diner and not showing sympathy for undocumented immigrants. If you have to garner support by mocking someone and tearing them down viciously by referring time and time again to their appearance, then you lack substance and decency.
Attack their positions, not their persons. When you do this you turn people off and if you don't, if the people you are throwing red meat to enjoy it, don't you understand how easily they can be turned? Inciting rage and hatred is never the better way forward.
You are so steeped in self-satisfied rage and what you believe to be justified hatred that you don't see these people as human. If you hate them so much how are you different from Trump and his ilk? Dehumanizing people is always going to be a first step towards violence. You've taken this much too far and you are absolutely in the wrong for doing so.
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