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Turkey is an important country, tiny balkan countries aren't. If Turks spit we will drown. Turkish military is very strong, you can come suddenly one night if we misbehave. Turkish economy is great, it's in G20, Greece is poor. Now it's the turkish century, Turkey is the leader of the islamic world.
That's what the vast majority of Turks believe.
On the other hand, Greeks even before independence, saw themselves as Europeans: they were influenced by the Enlightment, the French and American revolution.The very first Greek constitution was very liberal and democratic. We have some common foods and music with the ottomans (Turks think that the influence was one way: from Turks to Greeks) .
Bottom line: we don't have common dreams, common goals, neither common mentality.
Turks are more similar to Russian mentality, their anti-western rhetoric and dreams of re-capturing their old lands.
If you strengthen relations and trade with Russia you'd be a powerhouse in the region.
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@monke6116
Turkish politics are basically middle eastern politics : islamists vs nationalists.
Which is fundamentaly different than EU politics where it's (christians-nationalists) vs (leftists - progressives)
That's why it seems that Europeans don't get you.
Erdogan has managed to take by his side the nationalists in many aspects and that's why CHP can't win. By European standards CHP is basically far-right.
And the reason for that mess is that Turks are "proud" and they will never admit that there is a problem, and they are pretty ok with not having basic human rights. When someone was accused for "insulting the sultan" for posting something extremely polite on international forum NO ONE was by his side. The "proud" Turks, even the ones living abroad were trying to come with exuses for Erdogan, to protect the turkish image.
And that's even MORE fundamentaly opposite to souther Europe. During our dictatorships Greeks and Portugues were protesting against our regimes abroad, so that we would get attention and help from western democracies. Turks abroad are "turkey is such a nice country, come for holidays"
Europeans aren't stupid, they know what's happening, the only thing that changes is that they consider the average Turk as a proud idiot without democratic values. And they are "oh such a nice country, so polite people" while in their head "for a middle eastern country, what they have is good enough". But Turks remain proud militaristic.
I'm ok with Turkey being .. Turkey. But I don't want more proud turks in EU, posting how great turkish army is from.. Berlin!
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@AhmetErciyas-g1s
What kind of colonial past does Malta have? Or Poland? Or Romania? Or Bulgaria?
Or Finland? Or Denmark? Or Lithuania or Esthonia? Latvia? Slovenia, Chechia, Slovakia?
Even the EU countries who had a colonial past, it's IN THE PAST and nowadays they did something unimaginable : they WILLINGLY surrendered some of their political rights to parliament consisted of many countries and they gave VETO rights even to the smallest and weakest EU countries.
Of course you proved once more that Turks are very anti-western and hostile to anything EU (except the EU money)
I won't even comment on Ottomans, not even Neo-Ottomans.
But thanks for showing what would happen if TR entered EU.
They would discuss any CURRENT issues with their usual anatolian attitude.
"lets make a law against violence towards women"
turks to French, Belgians, Netherlands etc : you were colonialists, shut up.
turks to Bulgarians. Maltese, Fins etc: we don't care about your small country, you are insignificant.
turks in general : VETO this law, until you send to prison the journalist who dared criticize our beloved sultan.
Turks to Germans, Italians :shut up you nazis/faschists.
Even imagining Turks in EU parliament, it becomes a total joke. A tragic joke.
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1. Turkey is the only country that ever threatened Greece with war for the last 40 years. I don't know how barbarians are used to talk to each other, but Europeans tend to take threats seriously. No dear, IT'S NOT NORMAL
2. Turkey is actually at war in Syria and Northern Iraq and just a while ago with Armenia. The fact that Turks even find the time to threaten their only peaceful neighbour while their kids die in the East just shows their obsession.
3. No, we are not close culturally nor in lifestyle. Turkish society is the most violent society I have ever come across.
Turks prefer to be feared than to be loved. People are ashamed to say that they are poor or weak in turkey. Inside the barbarian society, the powerful demand obedience, and the weak obey. When the government is unfair to you, no one, not even your friends, will speak up for you.
Turkish society looks a lot more similar to Russian society.
4. This obsession about "power" shows even in your own comment "we could be really powerful allies". But we don't want to be powerful. That kind of argument could work with russian mentality.
Greeks want to have BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE. We can't even communicate in a basic level.
5. Greece is very happy and peaceful with all the neighbours except the middle eastern garbage on our east.
Albanian, N.Macedonian and Bulgarian army are famously very weak and they aren't even interested in arming themselves: because Greece NEVER THREATENED THEM with war.
Turks are proud that people are afraid of them. I'm PROUD that no one is afraid of me.
Because we are NOT "culturally similar",
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@Himes5564 They have very different mentality, and you can call it bad if you like, but it's still TOTALLY DIFFERENT.
Greece is smal, poor, spoilt etc etc, but it's very different from the islamic world. Happy Umah to you, but don't expect me to be part of it. I'd rather stay poor, small, insignificant and FREE!!!
You decided to be neo-ottoman middle easterners, we decided to be Europeans.
You can maked deals with the neo-tzarists of Russia, since you have more in common.
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@chanell68
I have seen the recent election results, and it's all I need to know.
I'm willing to learn more, I'm watching carefully how Turkey supports and cooperates with their other neighbours. I look at the map, Turkey has borders with Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran, Iraq , Syria and EU.
Are they "Neighbouring and supporting each others", as you say?
If no, then I know I'm the next target.
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@avitalsheva I'm greek, I used to believe that Turks are Europeans, that's why I have travelled several times, I have friends and I learnt enough turkish to talk to people who don't speak english at all (and they are the vast majority). There is a whole world outside the touristic parts, even within Istanbul.
Living in Europe, enjoying the European lifestyle, having European girlfriends is nice and many people say they like it.
But what if your WIFE wants to have the same freedoms and rights as european women? What if your DAUGHTER wants to go out, drink beer and have a boyfriend? You'll see that very often their views change.
I have met Pakistanis, Egyptians and even Afghans who are educated and secular, but they are a tiny minority and don't represent their country. Secular Iranians in Europe, you'll see that they are way more progressive and better integrated.
The difference between Europeans are mostly socio-economic. Poor vs rich. As Balkan and southern and member of the infamous PIGS, I know what you mean.
But the family structure isn't so different. The opinions about freedom of press, aren't so different.
The family of a Slovakian GIRL wouldn't shun them if they date a "westerner".
Generally when I choose my friends, of course I'll judge them as persons and not by their nationality. But when I have opinions about a nation, I look at the opinions, culture and way of living of the whole nation and not from the 5-10 people who I happen to know. Election results are pretty eye opening sometimes. When someone keeps voting islamistic it's not a coincidence.
The last elections were bad for Erdogan. But if you look better, you'll see that he lost many votes to a MORE islamistic party.
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@avitalsheva Of course they'd be angry we messed up, I was angry myself. I was happy that we received help even though at times we didn't even deserve it, but at least we are doing ok now and we'll be able to help another country that might get in trouble.
But we are all part of the European history, we are nations that fought so hard in WW2, we exchausted ourselves and decided to never do it again. Most of Europe had to suffer communist regimes, Greece and Spain suffered civil wars communists vs anticommunists and we learnt to accept each other and live together.. This shaped European identity in the 20th century, and it's taboo to threaten each other with war. We don't do that any more, we learnt to solved our disputes in civilized manner.
Turkey didn't go through that process and formed a very different identity.
Since you mentioned the Greek crisis, in these troubled times it was even more obvious that we are together. For example a Spaniard voting for Podemos was closer to a Greek leftist than a center-right Spaniard. Even now, if a left leaning European criticizes the current center-right greek government, greek leftists will agree with the "foreigners" and don't feel the pressure to support their national government. I've noticed the same attitude in all European nations.
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@umutneo They have public support. In Turkey it's taboo to speak against the military no matter what.
Everyone knows that. The minute the turkish army invades, even 5 year olds will do the military salute and they'll support the invasion. Exactly the same as Russians when they invaded Ukraine. Before the invasion russians claimed that they liked Ukrainians, lived together for long etc etc.
When a nation is militaristic, their government knows that they have full support in every invasion. Has any Turk DARED to speak against the invasion in Syria? Even Kemal has said that "turkish youth won't shed their blood in arab lands" but even Kemalist Turks don't give a sh*t about Kemal any more.
I remember your Sultan saying publicly to a 6 year old girl that if she dies in war she's become a martyr, and the girl was crying. Everywhere in the civilized world that would be called child abuse, but in Turkey it's just normal to raise barbarians. "every Turk is born a soldiers" and sh*t like that.
I know that war needs public support, and I know that turks are more willing to go on war than their government. In fact, Erdogan used to be the least militaristic Turkish leader. He had to change into militarism to gain public support, as Turks always say "don't take him seriously, he is saying that to get votes"
Well THAT'S THE PROBLEM, that the voters want to hear "we'll come suddenly one night" and they pressure their leaders to become more agressive.
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@ruskygelovich5469
EU : rights to the individual, respect to differences and minorities , freedom of speech more important than showing respect to the powerful.
Turkey: kiss asses to powerful people, look down on the weaker, "respect" more importan than freedom of speech, huge social press to abandon any differences from the "average"
Seriously it's the difference between European and Asian cultures.
If you read enough comments from Turks, especially when they interact with nationalities they consider "small" like Bulgarians, Romanians, Belgians etc you will see why it's going to be a nightmare when they'll have to reach a decision withing EU.
Turks will be "shut up your population is smaller than a city of ours". Even their ministers have made public comments with that mentality.
Seriously, don't just imagine theoretical ideas. Look how they behave IN PRACTICE!
Do we need their arrogance, their blackmail and their nationalistic attitude? I say NO WAY IN HELL.
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@TheNoronist
1. Greece, the OFFICIAL STATE hasn't produced ANY maps similar to "mavi vatan". You can't show ANY politician next to similar map.
Turkey on the other hand, not only has a maximalistic goal, but it has "educated" all Turks to believe that this is so rightfull to the degree that we see it on their profile pics.
2. As a normal person, I checked what is the EEZ in other countries. I checked France, Spain, even Qatar. I have never ever ever seen that the islands have zero EEZ. That's only turkish claims in this map.
There are smaller, larger, any kind of EEZ, but THEY ALWAYS HAVE. I checked the EEZ that Greece agreed with Italy, and I don't think that Italy was bullied to agree but Corfy had full EEZ. (don't just believe me, you can google it)
In the mavi vatan map, there is no EEZ for inhabited islands.
In general , you can find Greeks having all kinds of opinions, but Turks are really so set on their opinion, there is no reason to bother.
3. Of course there is no animocity between people. Do you think that I'll beat someone just because he says that some islands belong to Turkey? Stupid people deserve to live on this earth too. You'll be surprised but we can even insult our prime minister and no one goes to prison!
Europeans have been through a lot in history and they behave very differently.
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@bigboss34231 So you just agree with me, that it's not the "offended by history" it's about NOW.
I find it weird that people would be afraid of NATO bases, especially another NATO country which already has NATO bases.
But then again, that's exactly Russia's excuse for invading Ukraine, that "they will build NATO bases"
Germany hosts some 36,000 U.S. troops, Italy around 12,000, Britain some 9,000, Spain some 3,000 and Turkey 1,600.
Germany has the most NATO troops in Europe but no one seems to be offended by that, probably because no one plans on invading Germany 😉
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