Comments by "doveton sturdee" (@dovetonsturdee7033) on "Timeline - World History Documentaries"
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@bradmason4706 Ariel has been totally overshadowed by Dynamo. RN Portsmouth Command lifted troops from Cherbourg & St. Malo, Plymouth Command from Brest, La Pallice, St. Nazaire, La Rochelle, Rochefort, Bayonne, & St. Jean de Luz. By the time the operation had ended, the RN had evacuated 191870 troops, and had lifted 310 artillery pieces, 2292 vehicles, & 1800 tons of stores. The popular image that the evacuation of the British army from France ended after Dynamo is completely wrong.
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'Churchill's bombing of Berlin in kind with bombing London. We cannot forget that Churchill was arguably the biggest warmonger of all, here, trying to escalate things beyond any hope of peace, because he knew he had his moat in the channel, and that he could drag the Americans in, with their vaster resources and even bigger moat in the Atlantic'
Oh well, nothing like viewing history with one eye shut, I suppose. Firstly, the RAF bombed Berlin the day AFTER the first German bombs fell on London. Secondly, which wars did Churchill 'monger?' He was out of government between 1929 & 1939, when, in September, he joined the cabinet of a country already at war. Thirdly, within days of becoming Prime Minister, he found Britain and her Commonwealth/Empire alone against an aggressive military power which had already conquered Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Belgium, & France. How much more escalation would you like? Fourthly, how did he 'drag America in?' Certainly he wanted the US to join the war on the British side. Who wouldn't for heaven's sake? But America actually only joined the war after being attacked by Japan and after Germany declared war on her. Unless you think Churchill had a hand in that as well?
Germany's chances of a successful invasion were minimal. Serious preparations could hardly begin unless/until France was defeated and occupied. There would be no point in training vast numbers of paratroopers if they cannot get there, and cannot be resupplied in any case. That only became even theoretically possible after June, 1940, with the result that, by September, the Luftwaffe had just over 220 transport aircraft and around 4,000 trained paratroopers, at most.
'By pass the Royal Navy.' BRILLIANT!!
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@Nate-uf4xk Odd, then, that German historians do not regard the RAF as playing an important part in the Dunkirk evacuation, and Luftwaffe records of the time do not suggest that they found the RAF a major inconvenience. Furthermore, the programmes you cite, are rather less than even-handed in their analysis. I saw 'Dunkirk - The New Evidence' and it was so full of holes as to be almost laughable. Of course, no-one able to present an alternative opinion was allowed anywhere near.
What you regard as unequivocal is far from it. Your reference to the Home Fleet rather suggests that you know very little about the Admiralty's defence plans, which involved 70 cruisers and destroyers, and around 500 smaller warships, within 5 hours' steaming of Dover, with the Heavy Ships of the Home Fleet based at Rosyth, again any potential sortie by the (actually, non existent) German Heavy Ships.
The concept of the 'destruction' of the RAF, by the way, is deeply flawed. Even had the Luftwaffe gained temporary superiority over the Home Counties, remaining RAF aircraft could easily retire to the Midlands, and be rapidly reinforced by new fighter construction. In any case, a Luftwaffe untrained in anti-shipping operations did not pose a deadly threat to the RN anti-invasion forces. Or, so Oskar Dinort, & Wolfram von Richthoven, commanders of the Luftwaffe, said at the time.
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@Nate-uf4xk Nonsense. The RN pink list for 17 September, 1940, which details the operational status of every RN warship from destroyers upwards, states 6 destroyers at Harwich, 1 light cruiser and 19 destroyers at Portsmouth, 2 destroyers at Southampton, 2 light cruisers and 18 destroyers at Sheerness, 1 battleship, 2 light cruisers, and 11 destroyers at Plymouth, 3 light cruisers and 5 destroyers at the Humber, 2 battleships, 1 battlecruiser, 3 light cruisers and 17 destroyers at Rosyth, 3 destroyers at Liverpool, 1 cruiser & 10 destroyers in the Forth of Clyde, 1 battlecruiser, 1 aircraft carrier, 2 heavy cruisers, 2 light cruisers and 7 destroyers at Scapa Flow. Those are just the resources in Home Waters. There were also 10 destroyers on escort duty in the North Atlantic. I haven't bothered listing the forces in the Mediterranean, at Gibraltar, or at Freetown, as it would take too long, but you should add to the above around 500 smaller warships, such as sloops, fleet minesweepers, corvettes, gunboats etc., of which there were over 500 near to the Straits.
The Luftwaffe would concentrate on the heavy ships would they? Firstly, the heavy ships, other than an old battleship at Plymouth, were in Rosyth and Scapa Flow, guarding against a sortie by (actually, non existent) German heavy warships, and secondly the heaviest RN ship sunk by the Luftwaffe in WW2 was a light cruiser.
I find it fascinating reading the entertaining accounts of what the Luftwaffe 'would have' done presented by people who are so sure that they know what 'would have' happened that they haven't found it necessary to bother actually doing any research.
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If you think that, your knowledge of 1940 is minimal. The US in 1940 was not even remotely able to do anything of the sort. Moreover, the US did not 'thwart' the Germans in Europe. The British did that by refusing to yield in 1940.
By the time the US, reluctantly, became involved, German already had plenty of problems dealing with the Soviet Union and the British Commonwealth & Empire.
The US, at most, made victory certain, and ensured that part, at least, of Western Europe, did not fall under Soviet control.
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Actually, in 1942, the British & Americans were fighting the Germans in North Africa, the Atlantic, the Arctic, and over the skies of Germany. They were fighting the Japanese in the Pacific, parts of China, the Indian Ocean, and in Burma, and the Italians in the Mediterranean. Whilst doing that, they were also shipping large quantities of supplies to the Soviet Union.
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@MarkHarrison733 Try again, little chap. German bombing of France began on the night of 9/10 May. By 11 May, the French reported bombs dropped on Henin-Lietard, Bruay, Lens, La Fere, Loan, Nancy, Colmar, Pontoise, Lambersart, Lyons, Bouai, Hasebrouck, Doullens and Abbeville.
After the German carpet bombing of Rotterdam on 14 May, Bomber Command began targets east of the Rhine from 15 May, 1940.
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@garyseeseverything8615 The first monoplane fighter was indeed German, the Fokker Eindecker, of 1915, closely followed by the Bristol M1.
The prototype 109s were intended to have Jumo 210 engines, but as these were not ready, a deal was done with Rolls Royce, which involved Rolls supplying four Kestrel VIs in exchange for a Heinkel He70 for use as a test bed. Two Kestrels were supplied to Messerschmitt. One was fitted into the first prototype, VI, but the second prototype, V2, received a Jumo 210A engine, as did the third, V3, which was the first to carry armament.
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Really? The Luftwaffe of 1940 had had no training in anti-shipping operations, and as a result was very poor at them. They had, for example, failed badly at Dunkirk. What makes you think that a Luftwaffe unable to sink large numbers of supposedly sitting targets at Dunkirk was capable of being any more effective against similar ships steaming at 25+ knots and freely able to take evasive action? It seems almost churlish to ask, moreover, what would have protected the barge trains at night, when the RN could operate, and the Luftwaffe couldn't?
By the way, in the whole of the war, the Luftwaffe sank 31 British destroyers, and no British warship bigger than a light cruiser. In September, 1940, the British had over 100 light cruisers and destroyers in Home Waters, around 70 of which were within six hours' steaming of the Straits. These were backed up by around 500 or so smaller warships, ranging from fleet minesweepers, sloops & corvettes to gunboats and armed trawlers. You don't seem to have the faintest idea exactly how enormous the RN of WW2 really was.
I enjoy reading posts from enthusiastic Sealion 'would haves,' as they are always confident about what the Luftwaffe 'would have' done, yet almost totally unaware of what, historically, the Luftwaffe actually did. Or, rather, didn't do!
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The Stuka, and the Luftwaffe in general, actually failed at Dunkirk. There were 41 Royal Navy destroyers present at various times, of which only 4 were lost to air attack. Of 230 trawlers, 23 were lost to enemy action of all kinds. Of 26 corvettes, sloops, & gunboats, 1 was lost, and of 66 merchant personnel vessels, 13.
Fortunately, the Luftwaffe of 1940 was trained in close support operations on land, but had no anti-shipping skills and, indeed, no suitable torpedo bombers.
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Wrong. In the summer of 1940 the Royal Navy was concentrated almost entirely in Home Waters and the Mediterranean. According to the Royal Navy's Order of Battle, the 'Pink List' of 16 September, 1940, there were 64 destroyers and six light cruisers. In addition, there were 29 destroyers on escort duty, recallable within 24 hours, and 23 with the Home Fleet at Rosyth & Scapa Flow. Only 49 of the 182 in commission were not in Home Waters, mainly being with the Mediterranean Fleet & Force H.
Your Luftwaffe, despite having such 'easy prey' had just failed badly at Dunkirk. Moreover, in the whole of WW2, it sank 31 RN destroyers, and no RN warship larger than a light cruiser. In point of fact, most of the RN's anti-invasion forces were based at Plymouth, Portsmouth, and the Nore, mainly within five hours steaming of the Straits, and RN destroyers patrolled the Channel on a nightly basis throughout the period of threatened invasion.
As to equipment, so desperately short of this were the British that, on 22 August, 1940, at a time when legend has it that Britain was in mortal peril, they were able to send a large troop convoy, Operation Apology, to North Africa.
As to supply by air, history shows that the Luftwaffe was never able to maintain surrounded German armies in the field. In August, 1940, of course, Luftwaffe archives show that, after heavy losses durng the period May-June, the Luftwaffe had only just over 220 transport aircraft in service. Moreover, have you actually thought what, in terms of Fighter Command 'defeat' actually means? In reality, nothing more than withdrawing remaining aircraft north of the Thames, out of range of German fighters. As the British had been outproducing Germany in aircraft, and especially in fighter aircraft, since June, 1940, after a period of rest & re-equipping, Fighter Command could re-engage, in the improbable event of any organised forces getting past the Royal Navy at all.
You are misinformed about the Battle of Crete. The Royal Navy was tasked with preventing the landing of axis forces by sea, and did precisely that. Two convoys attempted to reach Crete from Greece. The first, heading for Maleme, was annihilated, and the second, for Heraklion, turned back upon hearing of the fate of the first. No troops landed by sea until after evacuation had been ordered and the Royal Navy, once again, was obliged to rescue the army.
Had the Germans set off, in their converted barges being towed by tugs & trawlers at little more than walking pace, they would have encountered around 70 destroyers & light cruisers, supported by around 500 smaller warships. Unlike at Dunkirk, when the Luftwaffe failed to prevent the evacuation undertaken by similar ships when they were either stationary of moving at low speed in restricted waters, this time the RN warships had full freedom of action.
It is frequently said that, the less a person actually knows about the facts of 1940, the more the person thinks that Sealion was possible.
You have just managed to prove precisely that. Congratulations!
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@historymusic6331 'Because there's No way The Royal Navy Doesn't Suffer Staggering Losses To Prevent Operation Sealion From achieving Succeed.' Upon what actual evidence do you base that claim? If I had ever played cricket for England, I would currently have a batting average of 83.5. I can make this claim because there is just as much evidence for it as there is for your 'staggering losses' claim.
'Because Kriegmarine and Luftwaffe harassed The Royal Navy In English Channel.' Really? Let's see.
Between 1939 & 1945, the RN ran regular convoys through the Channel and along the ease coast. The FN/FS series ( Thames to Firth of Forth & return) consisted of 3584 convoys involving 104,792 voyages. Total losses, in convoy, stragglers, and out of convoy, were 203, or 0.19%
The CW/CE series ( St. Helen's Roads to Southend & reverse) involved 531 convoys, or 9,097 voyages. Losses from all sources (aircraft, U-boats, S boats, mines) were 31, or 0.34%. These convoys usually consisted of a number of small colliers or coasters, protected by two older V & W class destroyers and two or three armed trawlers.
So yes, the Germans probably did try to harass the RN in the Channel area. They were, however, astonishingly inept at it.
Right, now the Mediterranean. Perhaps you are unaware that the only people blocked in the Mediterranean were the Italian navy & the 60 or so U-boats sent there. The British held both ends of the Med., in particular Gibraltar, a fortress and the base for the British Force H. Of the 60 boats sent, despite Doenitz's protests, to the Mediterranean, how many managed to emerge back into the Atlantic? Actually one, U26, in early 1940.
You seem to like using phrase like 'staggering losses' or 'heavy cost' a lot. Perhaps you should seek to provide credible arguments to support them?
Or, alternatively, you might buy a book or two in order to educate yourself on the subject, and to disabuse yourself of your strange fantasies?
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