Comments by "doveton sturdee" (@dovetonsturdee7033) on "Historigraph"
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@wolfbyte3171 Captain Krancke, commander of Admiral Scheer, paid generous tribute to the gallantry of Fegan & Jervis Bay in his account. He also referred to a small freighter, already on fire, which fired at his ship before she sank. This is believed to have been Kenbane Head. He made no reference to any gun battle with Beaverford, only referring to a ship carrying a deck cargo of timber that Scheer caught up with as it fled at speed far to the south of the main action.
The captain's log from Fresno City, another of Scheer's victims, reported "The Beaverford, bearing 110 degrees East South East was attacked and set on fire, distant about 10 miles". It seems Beaverford was attacked around 50 minutes after Kenbane Head, and about an hour before the sinking of Fresno City. There does not seem to have been, therefore, any time for a four hour engagement.
The account of the Beaverford action first appeared in 1944, in the magazine Canada's Weekly, and it was republished in the Evening Standard in London. Quite how, when the convoy was scattering in all directions, a four hour engagement could have been witnessed in entirety, is not made clear.
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Precisely, Prince of Wales (and Repulse) were both sunk by TORPEDO BOMBERS. The Luftwaffe didn't even have an operational torpedo bomber until mid 1942. Similarly, the 1940 Luftwaffe had not been trained in anti-shipping techniques, hence their failure at Dunkirk.
The Germans only had a small number of operational U-Boats in September, 1940. In point of fact, 27, of which, historically, 13 were actually at sea on any one day in September. Moreover, in October, 1940, the Germans sent three U-Boats into the Channel. All three were immediately sunk. The allies had laid a series of defensive minefields, similar to those which had been so successful against German submarines in WW1.
Condors were long-range search aircraft, and had some initial success against unarmed merchantmen. I do not recall reading of any attempt by a Condor to attack a warship, and historically, once merchantmen received defensive armament, Condor crews were forbidden to attempt attacks, because Condors were too valuable, and there were only ever a few of them.
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By June, 1941, the idea of a German invasion was a distant memory if, indeed, it had ever been much more than a fantasy in the first place, given the naval supremacy of the Royal Navy at the time.
By the way, neither the US nor the Soviets 'came to the rescue.' The Soviet Union was invaded by Germany in June 1941, and the US was attacked by Japan in December, 1941, after which Germany declared war. Stop pretending altruism where none existed.
Incidentally, there are many good books which explain the actual facts in some detail. Perhaps you might read one or two some day?
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Let's see. Over 100 Belgian & French divisions either capitulated or surrendered in 1940. Thirteen British divisions were evacuated (along with 120,000 French troops). The French did better?
The British & Canadians then fought & won the Battle of the Atlantic, the Royal Navy won the war in the Mediterranean, the Royal Navy maintained the supply lines to the Soviets in the Arctic, The Royal Navy planned and executed every major Allied assault landing in the west, The British provided 892 0f the 1213 warships at D-Day, 3261 of the 4127 landing craft, two thirds of the allied aircraft, and the British & Canadians provided two of every three men who landed on the beaches on 6 June.
The RAF maintained a constant air offensive against Germany, the Western Desert Force defeated the Italians in North Africa, and were the dominant partner in the Tunisian campaign. The British & Commonwealth armies fought and won the war against Japan in Burma, inflecting the greatest single defeat on Japanese land forces in the whole of the war, Operation U-Go.
You are an ignoramus or a simpleton. Go away.
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1). Good luck trying to lay mines with your seven minelayers, when the Royal Navy carried our nightly destroyer patrols during the invasion threat period. The Germans did install some 150 medium, heavy & super-heavy guns along the Channel Coast. In the whole of the war, these weapons successfully damaged seven merchant ships, totalling 8,000 tons. They even managed not to hit HMS Erebus when she shelled Calais on 29 September, and HMS Revenge when she bombarded Cherbourg on 10/11 October. You think those same guns would deter fast moving cruisers & destroyers? Think again.
2). You don't think that any invasion force needed resupplying, then?
3). That presupposes that you manage to get an invasion force ashore. Moreover, how long do you think Fighter Command, from bases north of the Thames, would take to react?
4). 'Sitting ducks?' Like the evacuation fleet was at Dunkirk, when the Luftwaffe totally failed to prevent Dynamo? Do you not realise how inept the Luftwaffe was at hitting ships at sea in 1940? Or that it didn't even have an operational torpedo bomber until mid 1942? Or that in the whole of the war it sank 31 RN destroyers, and no RN warship larger than a light cruiser?
5). Nonsense. The only German parachute division had around 4,500 men left in September, 1940, and the Luftwaffe had only around 220 transport aircraft still operational. With no hope of relief by ground troops, exactly how long do you think lightly armed paratroopers might last?
6). Simply not true. Moreover, what happens to your supply vessels and towed barges at night, when the RN can operate unhindered? Even if not actively transporting supplies, thewy would remain helpless.
7). You have to get your troops ashore first, don't you?
8). See 7). above.
9). See 7).above. Moreover, had you actually seen the final German plan, you would know that the first wave was intended to be around 6,700 men from each of nine divisions. These divisions would lackmotor transport, and most of their divisional artillery. As to Panzer Divisions, these were not included in the first wave, as the Germans lacked anything remotely resembling tank landing craft.
10). Aee 7). above. Moreover, other than your fevered imagination, what evidence you have that Churchill would have fled anywhere.
note: Launching Sealion in July. Good idea. At a meeting on 20 June, Raeder ( I assume you know who he was) stated that the Kriegsmarine had no suitable assault vessels, but hoped to have assembled some 45 barges within the next two weeks. Perhaps you should have added?
11). If all else fails, the invasion force could always cross using Montgolfier balloons.
I don't really know why I bothered to debunk your bizarre wish-fulfilment fantasy at such length, when three words would have been sufficient. Perhaps when you grow up, you will learn this?
THE ROYAL NAVY.
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@gregmackenzie5822 What U-boats? In Septermber 1940, the Germans had 27 operational boats, of which 13 on average were at sea on any one day. Moreover, they avoided the Channel, which was heavily mined and defended, after three boats sent there in late 1939 were promptly sunk. Generally, in WW2, U-boats tried to avoid escorts. Seeking them out as you suggest was unlikely to end well for the Germans.
Which S-boats? The Germans had 13 in September, 1940.
Which other naval forces? In September, 1940, the largest operational German warship was a single heavy cruiser. There were also three light cruisers, five destroyers (based in Cherbourg) two destroyers, based in Brest, and seven Wolf/Mowe class torpedo boats.
The actual probability, once the Invasion barges were detected at sea, moving slowly towards the Channel in unwieldy box formations, would be the arrival of Halsey's combined DF 16 & DF 18 from the Nore (9 destroyers), and Pizey's DF21 (8 boats) supplemented by 8 destroyers, of the Rosyth Escort Force, and of 23 Destroyer Division also based at the Nore, from the North. From the West (Portsmouth) the boats of Creasy's DF1 and Stevens' DF8 ( 12 boats), and the 5 French boats of DF23, would arrive slightly later. After that, boats from Plymouth (DF3, DF11, and DF17, 13 boats) could be expected, and a few hours later the Harwich destroyer and light cruiser force would appear. In total, around 70 destroyers and light cruisers, and this doesn't include the five hundred or so smaller vessels, such as fleet minsweepers, gunboats, sloops, frigates, corvettes, MLs, MTBs, MGBs, and auxiliary minesweepers arriving more slowly.
What did the Germans have available to fight these off? A handful of ships as listed above, and a few R boats, akin to British MGBS.
In all probability an action the naval equivalent of the US 'Marianas Turkey Shoot' of the Pacific war.
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@netrolancer1061 Well, not according to Bob Ballard or David Mearns, who both stated that 'the British' sank Bismarck. In point of fact, by the time she sank, she had lost her main armament, her bridge superstructure and command staff, and her internal communications. She was extensively on fire, listing heavily, and settling by the stern. Hardly scratched, in your mind, I suppose?
In fact, she had been reduced to little more than a practice target after around 20 minutes on 27 May. Still, if you wish to believe that, had she been scuttled, it made her slightly less sunk, then enjoy your delusion.
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