Comments by "doveton sturdee" (@dovetonsturdee7033) on "Operation Pedestal: The Convoy That Saved Malta" video.

  1. Because of the heavy escort, which included two of the most powerful battleships in European waters, Nelson & Rodney.
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  2.  @shawntheruler7664  Two Italian cruiser squadrons did, briefly, sortie on 12 August, but refused to operate close to Malta without substantial air support, which Kesselring was not willing to provide. As a result, the sortie was cancelled by Mussolini himself. Ironically, when returning to port, two of the cruisers were torpedoed by HMSm. Unbroken. Both survived, but had not been repaired by the time Italy capitulated.
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  3. Sorry, but simply not true. Ohio arrived in the Clyde on 21 June, 1942. On the same day, the US War Shipping Administration informed Texaco that she was being requisitioned. After waiting in the Clyde for two weeks, she was visited by Texaco's London agent, accompanied by a representative of the (British) Ministry of War Shipping, and her captain informed that his ship was to be handed over to British ownership, and his crew replaced by a British one. Captain Petersen and his crew disembarked, and were, understandably, unhappy at the way they had been treated. Perhaps high-handed, but niceties were few and far between in mid-1942. Therefore, contrary to what you might claim, no 'attack' by savage Limey thugs. The original order for the requisition of the Ohio, by the way, came from Franklin Delano Roosevelt. In no way was there any 'act of piracy.' A sister of Ohio, by the way, Kentucky, had previously been transferred in a similar manner, and lost earlier in June, 1942. She wasn't seized by pirates either. As to reading 'Guns of August' presumably by Barbara Tuchman, and 'No Man's Land' by John Toland, both are about the First World War, in which The Netherlands was a neutral country. How exactly did the Limeys bring about the fall of Amsterdam, exactly, and which ships were 'hijacked?'
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  4.  @Mondo762  Ohio had a British crew. Almeria Lykes had an American crew (all 105 of whom were rescued by HMS Somali when she sank) Santa Elisa had an American crew, supplemented by British AA gunners. 28 of her 83 crew were rescued by HMS Penn.
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  5.  @Mondo762  Ohio unloaded in the Clyde in June 1942. She was transferred to the British Eagle Oil and Shipping Co., and her American crew disembarked on 10 July. She was re-fitted with extra bofors and oerlikon AA guns, and had special bearings fitted to her engines, and extra protection added to her steam pipes, because comparatively minor damage to Kentucky had resulted in her loss. Kentucky, by the way, also swapped crews. The transfer of these two tankers to the British was a generous act by the US Maritime Commission as fast (16 Knot) tankers were like gold dust at the time and the US Navy were requisitioning them for use in the Pacific. Incidentally, Santa Elisa was a last minute addition to the convoy. She was actually loading in South Wales for the US when she was ordered to discharge her cargo. I have no idea why, although, without Santa Elisa, there would have been 13 merchantmen in the convoy. Perhaps someone was superstitious?
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  6. Odd that. I always understood that there were three US Carriers at Midway. It seems Mr. Edmondson has discovered a 4th. I know of Enterprise, Hornet, & Yorktown. Perhaps he would enlighten us concerning the identity of the extra one, which the history books seem to have missed?
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  7. Yes. Because the alternative was to have allowed Malta to surrender.
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  8.  @mirkonavarra1517  What part do you think the Italian Navy actually played in it?
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  9. There were no Seafires in operational service in August, 1942. The type was used for the first time during Operation 'Torch' in November, 1942. It was possible to fly Spitfires off carriers, as HMS Furious did on two occasions during & immediately after Pedestal in order to reinforce Malta's air defences, but obviously they could not land back on the carrier.
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  10.  @richardcleveland8549  I believe that the fighters comprising Admiral Lyster's aircraft aboard Eagle, Victorious, & Indomitable consisted of 46 Hurricanes, 16 Fulmars, and 10 Martlets (Wildcats). I also recall reading somewhere that many of the crew of Ohio actually, seeing her name on her bows, referred to her as O H Ten. Possibly apocryphal?
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  11. Convoys after Pedestal were Stoneage, Portcullis, Quadrangle, & Survey. There were also a few independent voyages by fast minelayers and merchantmen.
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  12.  @trumbettier  Clearly, your need to resort to obscenities (or, rather, the same obscenity. Couldn't you at least think up a few others?) demonstrates the true validity of your argument, but, more in hope than anticipation, I feel I should ask you, if the British did not save Malta, where the five merchantmen which reached Malta with 32000 tons of supplies came from? Likewise, where did the November convoy, MW13 (Stoneage) come from? Furthermore, I doubt there was anything in the Atlantic Charter which surprised Churchill, largely because he helped to compose it. I agree, there were aspects to it which he certainly didn't like, but equally the same comment could be applied to FDR. Yes, the British Empire was largely history by 1960. All empires are transient, whether they be Roman, Spanish, or British. Indeed, historians of the future will probably identify the immediate past as the time when the United States began to decline in prestige and authority, with the rise of the next great world power, China. Your post, by the way, rather reeks of hubris. You should be aware that generally follows is nemesis. Odd that you should suggest that the British hadn't learned the importance of air power by mid 1942, when they were clearly well aware of it in 1940. They certainly understood it in 1944, when two thirds of the 11600 aircraft at D-Day were British. Mind you, so were 892 of 1213 warships, two thirds of the troops who landed (British & Canadian,) and 3261 of the 4127 landing craft were British manned. Furthermore, whilst the Supreme Commander was American, the heads of the three armed services were all British, and the naval landings were planned by a British Admiral, Bertram Ramsay. One final thing. How did Churchill 'bait' Germany between the wars when he held no political office of any kind between 1929 & September, 1939?
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  13.  @trumbettier  I should also have written that I read Mr. Buchanan's opus in 2010 or thereabouts, and felt then that his arguments were, at best, deeply flawed.
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  14.  @trumbettier  Brisbane Star did nothing of the sort. She had been damaged and could only make 8 knots, and her captain, Frederick Riley, concluded that she could not reach Malta on 13 August without protection, especially since she had been spotted by a Sicily based Sm79. Consequently, he took his ship into French territorial waters and the aircraft, obeying the rules of war, did not attack. At 1000, Brisbane Star began receiving signals from the Vichy authorities at Hammamet, but ignored them. Around 1700 a Vichy patrol boat appeared and Brisbane Star was boarded by two officials, who insisted that she should be interned. After some discussion, and liberal doses of whiskey, the officials left, boarding their patrol boat, taking a badly injured crewman with them, and even signalling 'Bon Voyage.' Riley kept Brisbane Star behind a series of shoals and sandbars well inshore until nightfall, before continuing on his course for Malta, where she arrived at 1530 on 14 August, a gaping hole in her bows notwithstanding. For most of the last day, she was actually protected by Beaufighters, until she came within range of Malta's Spitfires, by the way. Riley never at any time sought succour from French authorities. He made a considerable effort to avoid being interned, and his ship was capable of far more than 3 knots. It looks like you have been reading wikipedia, rather than a proper account of Pedestal written by a professional historian, of which there are several available. Even wikipedia does not suggest that Riley sought help from the French. That, presumably, is the bit you invented all by yourself. You are therefore, utterly wrong in your facile comments.
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  15.  @trumbettier  My opinion on David Irving, and my views on Brexit, are irrelevant to Pedestal. Buchanan's book might well appeal to those who have a superficial, at best, knowledge of the facts, and/or have existing prejudices which they seek to reinforce. I really don't care what you think about his work as that, also, is irrelevant to Pedestal. By the way, you do know that Churchill held no political office between 1929 & September, 1939, do you? Whatever his own views, he had no influence at all on British governance during that period. In fact, he was widely regarded as a renegade, especially since he had crossed the floor of the house twice.
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  16.  @trumbettier  I assume that, by 'intransigent comments' you mean indisputable facts which you don't like. Just for information, the Germans didn't start fitting turbines in their capital ships until the Kaisers of 1912. The British had been using turbines since Dreadnought. Furthermore, the last of the class, Prinzregent Luitpold, was supposed to have been fitted with a diesel engine driving her centre shaft, but never was. This also applied to the succeeding Konig class, which, likewise, were never fitted with the intended diesels and, indeed, resorted to partial coal firing, with 12 of 15 boilers being coal fired. Even the last two, German battleships, Baden & Bayern, had 11 of 14 boilers coal fired. No German battleship in WW1 had a diesel engine. Oh, and the 'enormous fire power' is interesting. I presume you mean the German 11 inch and 12 inch, as opposed to the feeble British 12 inch, 13.5 inch, & 15 inch. Only the last two German battleships, the Baden & Bayern, carried 15 inch guns, in comparison to the (entirely oil fired) Royal Sovereign & Queen Elizabeth classes (10 ships in all) of which the QEs were some four knots faster than the Badens. By the way, the (oil fired) Bismarcks were hardly wonder weapons. Both had outmoded incremental armour, whereas every British capital ship since the Nelsons had adopted the Nevada type, vastly more effective, all-or-nothing system. Bismarck was able to sink a twenty year old, unmodernised, British battlecruiser, but was quickly reduced from a warship to a slowly sinking, helpless, target in about twenty minutes by HMS Rodney on 27 May, 1941. The other two WW2 German battleships, Scharnhorst & Gneisenau, were also oil fired, although the panzershiffs, often wrongly called pocket battleships, were diesel powered, but hardly formidable vessels, as their performance in WW2 clearly demonstrates. There were no British capital ships reliant on coal in WW2, by the way. If Churchill was 'able to stir and keep the drums of war beating' between the wars, he couldn't have been much good at it, given the appeasement policies followed by a series of British governments at the time, could he? He did consistently argue that a resurgent, re-arming, Germany, after 1933, was a threat to European stability. Was he wrong?
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  17. 'shouldn't have sent 4 fleet carriers in the escort' Why not?
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  18. But failed to prevent the re-supply of Malta. By the way, no Italian surface ships larger than MAS boats were even involved.
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  19. It wasn't.
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  20. You clearly know little about Operation Pedestal, and even less about what 'The Narrows' were.
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  21.  @BA-gn3qb  The Arctic Convoy was actually PQ17, which was scattered as a result of an error of judgement by the First Sea Lord, who, wrongly, thought that a strong force led by Tirpitz was rapidly approaching, and that an unscattered convoy would be annihilated. Nobody 'ran away,' the Anglo-American cruiser covering force thought they were about to engage the Tirpitz force, in the hope that they could delay it long enough to enable the (again, Anglo-American) battleship force to intervene. Those destroyers of the close escort with torpedoes joined the cruiser force, whilst the smaller escorts stayed in the vicinity of the scattering convoy. Generally, facile comments such as yours dissolve when the facts are examined.
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  22.  @BA-gn3qb  So, taking four heavy cruisers and four destroyers, supported by two or three older destroyers from the close escort, to engage what might have been one battleship, two pocket battleships, one heavy cruiser, ten destroyers, and two torpedo boats is 'running away' in your world is it? A curious world you inhabit. Feel free to criticize Dudley Pound for his decision, which may have been influenced by the fact that he was suffering from a brain tumour which was shortly to kill him, but please don't accuse the British (and American) commanders on the spot of cowardice. As to 'Pedestal,' which British admirals 'took their warships and ran away' please? By 'ran away' you need to demonstrate that they did this in defiance of orders. Following a pre-determined plan which specifically excluded the presence of capital ships in the Narrows where they would be more of a hindrance than a help cannot be equated with 'running away.' Please feel free to quote from any naval historian who agrees with your opinion.
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  23.  @BA-gn3qb  Is that really the best reply you can offer? Personal prejudice combined with a lack of knowledge always comes a poor second to established historical facts. As you have just demonstrated.
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  24.  @BA-gn3qb  As I rather expected. A cogent, well reasoned argument, full of factual information and supporting evidence. Have you perhaps thought of writing a book?
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  25.  @BA-gn3qb  I'll do one final post, and then give up on you, as apart from chanting 'Brits. are cowards' endlessly, you really don't seem to know anything. There were 78 Arctic convoys during the course of WW2. 792 vessels sailed to Russia, and 739 returned. Of the 792, 62 (7.8%) were lost. Of the returning convoys, 28 vessels, (3.8%) failed to arrive. Some 4,000,000 tons of supplies were dispatched, including 5000 tanks & just over 7000 aircraft, all but 300000 tons arrived. Throughout this period, the merchantmen and escorts had no, or minimal, air cover, and were operating far from friendly bases, whilst the Germans had battleships, heavy cruisers, pocket battleships, light cruisers and their entire destroyer force, together with a large number of U-Boats and bomber & torpedo aircraft, close at hand. Despite this, one one occasion only was a convoy subjected to heavy losses, and that because a senior officer in London made an error of judgement, rather than due to any failure of the men on the spot. 829 merchant crewmen and officers died. The Royal Navy lost two cruisers, six destroyers, three sloops, two frigates, and three corvettes. 1840 officers and men were killed. I won't bore you with further details of warships which were damaged but survived, as I imagine from your previous posts that you are reaching the end of your attention span. Please feel free, in the light of the above, to post inanely about the cowardly Brits. By the way, I wouldn't need to read anything you might care to write, as I have already had a number of my own published. That's all, please feel free to post further nonsense, but I won't waste any further time upon you.
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  26. Ohio & Kentucky were owned by the Eagle Oil Company (now Texaco) and loaned to Britain because the British needed fast tankers to attempt to supply Malta. Kentucky was lost during Operation Harpoon on 15 June, 1942. Both had British Merchant Navy crews, and the crew of Ohio actually nicknamed her OH 10.
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  27. Your point being?
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  28.  @thundernuns  Yes, I know.
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  29. Her captain, Roger Hill, wrote an excellent book about his service in ww2, 'Destroyer Captain.'
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  30. No. Athough she did take part in a number of Operations in which fighter aircraft were flown off to Malta.
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  31. During Pedestal, she carried 20 Sea Hurricanes from 801 & 813 Squadrons, Fleet Air Arm. 16 were lost when she was torpedoed. The other four (in the air at the time) were diverted to another carrier.
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  32.  @marxfelix3973  Surrender to Italy. Without Pedestal, the civilian population of Malta could not have survived. They were already on the verge of starvation. Lord Gort, the Governor said as much. The date had been set for the end of August, if supplies had not arrived.
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  33. The Germans did build eight U151 class boats in WW1, which were originally intended to be unarmed cargo carrying submarines, as a means of evading the blockade imposed by the Royal Navy's Northern Patrol. The first, Deutschland, mad two successful round trips to the US, but the second, Bremen, was lost on her maiden voyage, probably either to a mine or to a torpedo from a British boat, G13. The remainder were completed as warships, with two bow tubes and two deck guns. Deutschland was similarly converted, but with six tubes, and the boats were numbered 151 to 157, the ex Deutschland being 155. Although impressive as a means of propaganda, and very large by contemporary submarine standards, the cargo capacity was, at 700 tons, relatively small.
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  34.  @mirkonavarra1517  Try again. 13 ships were lost during Pedestal. One carrier was sunk by a German U-Boat, one AA cruiser by an Italian submarine, one cruiser by an Italian Mas boat, one destroyer by Italian aircraft, four merchantmen by German aircraft, three merchantmen by German S boats, one merchantman by an Italian Mas boat, and 1 merchantmen by an Italian submarine. So, five ships were lost to aircraft, four to German U & S Boats, & four to Italian ships. Oh, and the Italian battlefleet remained immobile, an Italian cruiser squadron refused to engage, though two cruisers were torpedoed and never repaired, and two Italian submarines were sunk. The German liaison officer, Admiral Weichold, said that 'a more useless waste of fighting power cannot be imagined.' He was not writing about the British effort. You sure that was a 'huge victory?'
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  35.  @mirkonavarra1517  What about Ithuriel? She sank Cobalto, not vice versa. Ohio delivered her cargo to Malta. My source isn't a single one. It is simply the facts gleaned from several books on the subject. Try 'Pedestal' by Peter Smith, 'Pedestal - The Fleet that Battled to Malta, 1942' by Max Hastings, (2014). Operation Pedestal. The story of convoy WS21S in August 1942, 'Operation Pedestal. The story of convoy WS21S in August 1942' by Brian Crabb, and half a dozen others. Just to correct your errors, Eagle was sunk by a German U-boat, Cairo, by an Italian submarine, Manchester scuttled after being torpedoed by a MAS boat, Foresight sunk by Italian aircraft, Deucalion by German aircraft, Clan Ferguson by German aircraft, Empire Hope by an Italian submarine, Wairangi by an S boat, Almeria Lykes by an S boaty, Waimarama by German aircraft, Dorset by German aircraft, Glenorchy by an S boat, and Santia Elisa by a Mas boat. 13 losses. As I wrote earlier. If you choose to claim that losses attributed to German vessels or aircraft were actually the results of Italian efforts, then argue that one out with your former allies.
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  36.  @mirkonavarra1517  HMS Ithuriel was not sunk. She was repaired, and served with Force H until she was bombed in November, 1942, after which she was laid up in Bone. She was then moved to Algiers, where it was decided that she would not be repaired. Ohio delivered her cargo. Feel free to fantasise to your heart's content.
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  37.  @mirkonavarra1517  If you don't need to talk about Pedestal, perhaps you might explain why you chose to do exactly that in the first place? O'Hara has his opinions. He is, however, in a minority where naval historians are concerned. You didn't need to correct yourself about HMS Ithuriel. I had already done it for you.
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  38. Their role was to protect Pedestal from the Italian battlefleet, which failed to put in an appearance. Moreover, the 'Narrows' were aptly named, and were not a suitable place to send capital ships, which would have required protective escorts against attacks by fast torpedo boats at a time when the Pedestal escorts were already rather busy!
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  39. There were also seven light cruisers.
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  40. Sadly, there was plenty of newsreel footage taken, but almost all of it was destroyed after the war. Only around 15 seconds has survived. Unforgivable!
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  41. To follow your argument, Stalingrad must have been a major tactical success for the German Army. The assessment of whether a battle is a defeat or a victory depends upon more than simply counting the corpses.
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  42. HMS Rodney. Nelson was never fitted with a catapult.
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  43. It really is a straightforward question. Who achieved their primary objective? The Allies sought to force sufficient supplies through to Malta to enable it to continue to operate as a base from which supply convoys to North Africa could be intercepted. The Axis sought to prevent supplies from reaching Malta, thereby forcing it to surrender, thus preventing further attacks on their North African convoys. The victors are those who achieved their objective.
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  44. Actually, Sea Hurricanes. The first Seafires weren't used in action until Operation Torch in November.
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  45.  @trumbettier  Yes, you are right. A first in History and a number of published books and articles clearly demonstrate how little I have read. I don't propose to comment on Brexit, because the connection to Pedestal is somewhat tenuous, don'y you think? The ships used for Pedestal were overwhelmingly British, and Ohio, though American built, was British crewed. Pedestal, far from being a disaster was a strategic success. If Malta had not been re-supplied, surrender would have been unavoidable, and the successes against supply lines to Axis forces in North Africa achieved by Malta based strike forces of aircraft and submarines would not have happened. As to D-Day, I have already told you the actual figures. Still, I am sure your blind prejudice will, doubtless, see things differently.
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  46.  @trumbettier  Out of interest, which merchantmen do you think 'headed for neutral ports?'
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  47.  @trumbettier  Does it matter whether he, or anyone else, voted for Brexit on not, as this has absolutely no relevance to the events of August, 1942?
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  48. The RN had included two battleships, Nelson & Rodney, as part of the escort, to provide AA protection and to deal with the Italian battlefleet should it appear. Italian smaller surface units did perform gallantly, but the battlefleet maintained a policy of 'masterful inactivity.'
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  49. Perhaps you don't understand what 'The Narrows' actually means? A very restricted area utterly unsuited for the operations of heavy warships. Aside from that, Syfret's heavy ships were positioned to prevent the Italian battlefleet from putting in an appearance. Why would you think it was a 'Churchill Blunder?' It may come as a surprise, but Churchill really wasn't on the bridge of Nelson, directing the individual movements of every ship.
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  50.  @steventhorson4487  Why is it irrelevant? The Italian battlefleet, used aggressively, could have prevented Pedestal succeeding, As the German Admiral Weichold, the liaison officer with the Regina Marina, wrote of the Italian surface fleet at the time, 'a more useless waste of fighting power cannot be imagined.'
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  51.  @steventhorson4487  The point was that by the time the Italian surface fleet could have been used, Syfret's battle fleet was not with the convoy. Only light cruisers and destroyers remained. The difference was that the British were willing to accept heavy losses to achieve their goal, whereas the Italians were not.
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  52. One
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  53.  @dubsy1026  There was no Allied shipping through the Suez Canal in WW2, because of the difficulty in passing merchantmen through the Mediterranean. Merchant traffic went via the Cape. A much longer, but much safer, route.
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  54. The British had a number of larger, minelaying, submarines, and used these to transport small quantities of essential equipment to Malta. They were also able to use very fast surface minelayers for the same purpose.
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  55.  @leondillon8723  No, allies working together in a common cause. Just as in March, 1942, the British & Canadians had transferred 34 convoy escorts and a Coastal Command squadron to the East Coast of the United States during Operation Drumbeat. Oh, and you haven't expanded on your bizarre Amsterdam comment as yet.
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  56.  @leondillon8723  General Alexander von Kluck died in October, 1934, aged 88. He actually commanded the German First Army during the early part of the First World War, but retired in October, 1916, after being wounded. His army never entered the Netherlands because the Netherlands was neutral during the First World War, and this neutrality was respected by both sides. Thus, the 'Limey' army never entered The Netherlands either, and the 'Limey' navy never hijacked US ships carrying supplies to the Dutch Army, I don't know what you are drinking, but it must be extremely potent!
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  57.  @leondillon8723  Perhaps you didn't know that the design of the tanker class to which Kentucky & Ohio belonged was influenced by the United States' Navy, and that the vessels were earmarked for use as naval auxiliaries in time of war? As you don't even seem to grasp that The Netherlands was neutral in the First World War this wouldn't surprise me in the least. Oh well. The telegram sent to Texaco by the United States' War Shipping Administration simply stated that Ohio was being 'requisitioned pursuant to the law.' The British government had asked the United States for the services of two fast tankers, and the War Shipping Administration, acting on the instructions of President Roosevelt, made firstly Kentucky and later Ohio available. This was a generous act, at a time when the United States' Navy needed fast tankers for their fleet train in the Pacific, but taken for the greater good of the allied cause in mid-1942. It does, however, give the lie to your nonsensical claim that 'limey sturmtruppers attacked' the Ohio in a Scottish port. As to whether the United States' government reimbursed Texaco, I neither know, nor care. Perhaps you may wish to investigate this matter of American jurisprudence; for my part I can' be bothered. Prior to the First World War, certain medium sized British liners had contract conditions which rendered them liable for requisition in wartime as armed merchant cruisers. Possibly something similar applied to the American fast tankers. Alternatively, you might consider stopping posting nonsense, or at least making some attempt to check your facts.
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  58. That was what supply convoys to North Africa generally did. However, in the case of Malta, there was insufficient time left.
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  59. No. The ships would have needed to go round the Cape and through the canal. By which time Malta would have had no supplies left.
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  60.  @Speedster___  That wouldn't have solved the tanker problem. Moreover, the fast merchantmen weren't in Alexandria, they were brought in from the Atlantic.
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  61.  @historigraph  Sounds like Roger Hill to me!
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  62. 8th Army was not in retreat, as Auchinleck had won the 1st Battle of Alamein in July. The August Arctic convoy was suspended precisely because ther main resources of the fleet had been sent to the Mediterranean for Pedestal. Subsequently, PQ18 sailed on 3 September.
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  63. Unlike Singapore or Malaya, Malta was an island.
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  64. He did write 'Engage The Enemy More Closely' in 1991
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  65. Spitfires were flown to Malta in a separate operation, Operation Bellows 2, from the carrier Furious. 39 Spitfires were embarked, and I believe 37 reached Malta on 12 August.
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