Comments by "Nick" (@NicodemusT) on "TDD Isn't Hard, It's Something Else..." video.

It's not hard to do, it's hard to contextualize. I recently started a small vending machine project, and it involves code. I put that code on Github – does this code need to be done with TDD? Given that you are supposed to start with TDD, why would a small python project I built specifically as something to build with my kids need TDD? How much time do I set aside to try and test hardware – like a coin acceptor's inputs for different sizes coins – for a project that is meant for fun? The code is a small, almost insignificant aspect of the project. In other words, a lot of larger projects start from humble beginnings, and they often start in a single script, or CLI that just does something simple. In my experience, most projects don't begin with a thoroughly written requirements document – where beginning with TDD makes obvious sense. I think a lot of this TDD evangelism misses so many examples of cases where TDD from the start would seem pedantic and almost a bit narcissistic.
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In time, you will be proven right. We're in the "we know better era" of application development. They just released a report that agile projects fall on their face 60% of the time. It'll just be a matter of time before we get a report showing almost no difference in TDD and non-TDD if the developers aren't literally brain dead.
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@TonyWhitley you know better. Got it.
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Except this point of view PRETENDS that buggy, test covered software DOESN'T EXIST and that's the crux here. Also, pretty sure Sir Tim Berners Lee wasn't thinking of build tools and TDD when he was thinking about an open web where anyone could publish. The Ivory Tower is thinking this idea of the open web does not matter.
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@vladinosky He will never address anything outside the most plain, practical and perfect circumstances.
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@sheldonlucas4428 It's not that comprehensive, and spends like 50% of it naval gazing about scenarios that no one has any issue with, but with a narrative that he doesn't even address outside of border-line ad-hominem anecdotes.
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@beowulf_of_wall_st you realize that Tim Berners Lee was knighted because of his ideas that anyone could publish on the web? I don't want to live in this world where every single thing needs a toolchain and test coverage. How do I know the code works? Because I've been a developer for 15 years. Further, all TDD suffers from being at least 1 degree separated from the actual code. How do you know TDD is helping you?
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@beowulf_of_wall_st You sound really close to the subject, my friend. You are definitely projecting. Maybe it's time to take a seat. There's nothing emotional about pointing out that the web was not intended for your evangelism. In fact, people are highly regarded for NOT being gatekeepers. What does "do you run your code manually" even mean? You are proposing TDD because it helps you walk through your logic, and yet this is how you talk about code? Illogically? What part of "vending machine" makes you think I am refreshing pages?
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@beowulf_of_wall_st How do you write TDD for a physical object blackbox like a coin acceptor? You want to talk the talk, walk the walk. Explain to me how writing tests that simulate a real world object that relies on PWM to deliver pulses to signal different coin sizes - which can change depending on the amperage delivered to it via cheap chinese components. I would love to hear your deep analysis given how adament you are about this. My guess is you won't have anything to add here.
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@beowulf_of_wall_st My guy – I can't even believe you're a real person. I like tests. I think they are good. I also think there's a lot of examples where testing is pedantic. I think most people agree with that. You have never done anything creative in your entire life if all you do is live in a constrained, limited world view. You have not insulted my skills or anything about me because your shots don't line up with my criticism. You want to paint me like an inexperienced developer because I don't want to write tests while I am hanging out with my kids, making a vending machine? Like you're serious? Give your head a shake. If you are seriously writing tests to test every single thing, then I would counter that maybe you have no confidence in anything you have ever written – the real shame here. The best developers I have ever known do not shame people for not having knowledge, by the way. So there's that.
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TDD evangelism exposes a desire to want anyone who works on web applications to become single-use specialized automatons who can't add any value other than checkmarks on a scoreboard. It's actually a really sad state of creativity. Specialization is for insects. Instead of asking everyone to build TDD-first applications, why can't I ask you to be a better front-end designer? How can you be a developer without understanding how something is designed? Isn't that a bit shortsighted? I mean my favourite artists are singers and song writers - why can't you do more than evangelise TDD?
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@beowulf_of_wall_st that's what I thought. You all love to project this idea, yet as soon as it becomes harder than assert(true) you're out. So much for that hard lined opinion. Washed away by the most basic edge case scenario.
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@beowulf_of_wall_st thank you for letting everyone know you've never worked in hardware. How do you test variances? How about when a bag of chips gets stuck in the machine? You have a test for that? You've lived in a digital reality your whole life and can't fathom the idea that something external doesn't dogmatically fit into your isoteric idea of testing. A test that mimics the variance in a amperage for 12v circuit. You're talking about gigabytes of tests. You're so out of your range here it's actually wild.
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@beowulf_of_wall_st i think you forget that testing code is also just code and can fail, often does. Facebook has almost 100% coverage and it always has bugs. Tell your community college they really need to add an extra year or two to the course.
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@TonyWhitley my uncle wrote RFC/tcp-ip - so excuse me while I'm not even remotely impressed by that. You literally wrote code so dbags like yourself can spend half their life arguing about past achievements like an unhinged Al Bundy-style highschool football story. Eternal L.
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