Comments by "Tespri" (@Tespri) on "David Pakman Show"
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+secularnevrosis
" Ok...the people being their own lords, sounds horrible. "
How is having commissar or politicians telling you what to do with your life as you being your own lord?
"How do you suppose that having an equal say in the society makes you less in control?"
First of all, you're giving up your freedom to politicians.
Second, even with direct democracy, you will be then forced according to the will of mob. Which means minorities will be discriminated. Aka you have no control on your life, instead you're forced to follow the will of the hive.
Socialism is about living as a hiveminded specia like ant. No freedom to make your own choices, just follow the will of collective like a good worker ant you are.
"Of course you can. "
literally can't. Socialism abolishes private sector, hence there will be only public sector.
"But you must share the profits with the people that are actually creating the profits."
So not only I need to pay them salary, but I also need to share profit? Also notice word you use... MUST. This means you are using force. No one is free to choose in your world.
"No. It gives people the freedom to make profits, as the se fit, out of other peoples work."
They don't profit form other people's work. They pay those people to help them. Those people actually profit from his idea, managing skills and marketing plans.
If something... It's the worker who is exploiting. Since he isn't willing to take risk to do things on his own.
" More freedom to him and less to the others. "
Literally the opposite. Others are free to do what ever they want in their life.
"And still you will get rich of other peoples work, by paying them less than their work output."
Objectively false. Or are you seriously telling... That factory owner, should not only pay their salaries, pay the equipment, pay the resources needed to do the produt, pay the marking. And worker who was hired there on their own free will. Should get 100% of all of the profit of the product he sold?
That is literally what parasites would demand. Basically demand that everything should be paid and done to them while they don't give anything back. You're parasite.
"The money must come from somewhere, doesn't it?"
Yes, it comes from the small portion that business men get from each sold product. The profit margin is actually very small. Usually around 1-3% of the product's value.
"I would help if you defined "wealth". "
Wealth is anything that has value on trade. Anything you can trade for something is wealth. Factory is wealth. Expensive painting is wealth. Car is wealth. Computer is wealth. Jeweleries are wealth. etc...
Money circulates constantly. Therefore one can be rich without you being poor.
"Yup. And then read Das Kapital to understand what he "
I did provide to you his own words from communists manifesto. Exact quote in fact.
"'The workers owns the means of production'."
They all had that. Workers as whole collective owned means of production through government. Since government represented them. They all were socialist countries exactly according to how marx defined them. This is why every socialist country ends up the same and looks like the same.
"It's good that you take the time to read Marx, but I would recommend reading the main publications, like Das Kapital, to understand the context of his other works."
how about you read, wealth of the nations or watch documentary called as Free to choose.
Oh wait... You're so deep in your religious cult that you don't even watch or read opposite views.
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+secularnevrosis
"Too bad that they didn't read Das Kapital then."
By the book, I mean communists manifesto... You know the thing which makes it clear what communists want and how they want it.
" Marx and even Lenin would be turning over in their graves if the knew what Stalin ( Lenin warned about letting him have power) did. "
Both marx and lenin believed in violent revolution and giving state all the means of production.
"No. To abolish class. C'mon you know this."
Nope, they claim to abolish it. By killing, brainwashing and exiling those who aren't communists. However in reality they create new class. Which will be political class.
"The inherent problem with communism rather than evolutionary socialism is that there is first a revolution to take the power from the goverment"
Yet for some reason it's not inherent problem for capitalist. Wonder why.... Also it's not take the power from the government. It's to take over the government.
". But it really never does..hence the various failed attempts to bring socialism in with all that it requires. "
There have been socialist states which weren't taken over by bloody civil war. They have all ended up in same state as the ones which had revolution.
It's not about was violence used to achieve it, but about inherent flaw of the ideology.
"Workers controlling the means of production. "
Through government. Also not workers, but proletarians.
"The corporations and/or nobility work with the goverment to exploit the citizens."
Prove that there is exploitation. Simply stating it doesn't make it so.
" That is one defenition and probably the most relevant and correct."
nope. Term facism means bundle of sticks. It's reference to the idea that individual stick can be broken easily, but bundle of sticks is unbreakable. In other words... It's collectivist belief system. Group over individual.
"If you don't have a free press, transparency and independent journalists."
Yeah and what do you expect when means of production are owned by the government? Or government has any sort of control over them.
"Why do you think that the "free press" does such an abysmal job in the US? Could it be that people with huge amounts of money or their owners supress reporting that goes against their interests...hmmm. I would say yes."
Nope. The media has changed, which lead press to to clickbait like articles instead of following the trend. Now more than ever independent media is flourishing. So Free press is doing great job, it's just not the press giants of the past that are doing good job. Also they don't get paid to not report something. They do it willingly over ideological reasons. I actually know lot of press from USA and lot of them are antifa supporters, which is why they avoid showing them in true light when the news come.
" Funny that the same results are the goals with socialism. "
Yes how funny... That capitalism reaches the goals of socialism, while socialism is incapable of doing it. It's as if... People who were socialist... Had no idea what they were talking about. It's as if... They couldn't understand that the system they advocate to reach certain goal, would actually go to the opposite direction of said goal.
" The means of doing it are different. "
Which is what counts. For example... If I think that mean to cure cancer is to shoot bullet in to the head of the patient. While real doctor would rather operate it by cutting cancer tissue away. Goal is to get rid of cancer... But only one of the means actually work.
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