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Horatio82
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Comments by "Horatio82" (@horatio8213) on "Did Poland bring on her own Destruction in 1939 because of her Aggressive Foreign Policy?" video.

@ElzariusUnity No they don't. That is why Hitler invade Poland. Because Poland do not want been used to invade USSR and fight war for Germany.
118
@i-etranger The point here is not the Hitler and his decisions, but perspective of Poland. Why not Stalin? Because he literaly was kiling Poles in thousends!
46
@CloneDAnon No just a oportunistic move. In the same time Hungerians did the same. And Slovaks gain shred of independence. Do you heard that Hungary have any deal with Germans? And I remind you that Czechs already brake agreement that was done in 1920. When Poland agree to give away their pretension to this land, Chexh should provide transport of war materials for Poland. And they still did not after agreement. No materials were allowed by Czechs even when they agree to do that. I think Poland made mistake, but was the same mistake done by Czechs in 1920.
46
@CloneDAnon Poland did not have any deal with Germans about Czehoslovakia. If you have it, show that document. That was Polish mistake. But any way coordinated with Germans.
43
@williamoccam3681 That accusation were false. Red Cross in 1920s and even Russian historians today admit that there was no systemic abuse or misstreatment of Soviet POW. Whole that accusation was political ploy to give exccuse for blaming Poles. That was done to take blame from Stalin for Katyń.
40
@IosifStalinsendsyoutoGulag Look at NKVD Polish Operation in 1937-38. If you were Polish official who you would choose? Hitler that did not yet commit any genocide or Stalin, who was kiling your countrymen in thousends?
29
@marcosffontes Sad but close to truth. But in the end Roosevelt sell as with rest of middle Europe to Stalin.
23
TIK have you heard about Soviet ethnic cleansing called Polish Operation done by NKVD in 1937-1938? That was part of Greate Purge. Basicly caused death of over 100 000 Poles living in USSR. One of the effect was destrucion of Polish Communist Party existing in USSR, as most of old communist creating it and living in USSR were exterminated.
22
@i-etranger Some of sources: https://ipn.gov.pl/en/news/4442,Soviet-prisoners-of-war-19191921.html "The conditions of life in Poland in the early post-World War I period, as described by the British Director of Relief: The country...had undergone four or five occupations by different armies, each of which had combed the land for supplies. Most of the villages had been burnt down by the Russians and their retreat (of 1915); land had been uncultivated for four years and had been cleared of cattle, grain, horses and agricultural machinery by both Germans and Bolsheviks. The population here was living upon roots, grass, acorns and heather. The only bread obtainable was composed of those ingredients, with perhaps about 5 per cent of rye flour. In: Derek Howard Aldcroft. Studies in the interwar European economy. Ashgate. 1997. p. 14." Also joint team of Polish and Russian historians after analysing documents they basicly reject notion of any planned and mass abuse of Soviet POW.
21
@davethompson3326 Any documents or shred of any evidence for that? There is no of it. Germans never give any real proposition about that. In reality Poland was not interested in war with USSR. They knew that of they join Germany, they would fight against UK, France and USSR. And even USA in the short future. Poland would end like as a German allied against that coalition.
19
@FriedrichBarb That was just empty gesture. Germany never considered resinging from Silesia and Wielkopolska Province. For Germans that were in their mind those lands belong to them. Seeing what happened with Czechoslowakia Poles has no other way. They knew that they have to fight or Poland would be destroyed and Partitioned just like in 18th century.
18
trainbomb 1) Then why USSR was in that alliance? Simple anwser, it was alliance against Poland and Romania. 2)Oh I can tell you what was Stalin reason. He counts that Hitler will start a war against Czechoslovakia and France, plus UK. When that did not happen in 1939, he help Hitler with starting a war in 1939! He was only interested in spreading communism, not in defendig Czechs. Plus in 1937-38 on Stalins order NKVD killed over 100 000 Poles living in USSR. Read about Polish Operation, maybe then you understand why Polish Government do not want let Red Army to Poland! https://www.jstor.org/stable/27920673?seq=1 https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1078&context=jil Reda that maybe you will unerstand why nobody in Poland belive in good will of Stalin!
14
trainbomb Starving own nation is not genocide? Ok, there is no sence to talk with somebody who deney real crimes.
13
trainbomb " LOL, "Holdomor" was not a genocide. Bs propaganda. Parts of my fam survived that famine. Nice myth though." Why I see a Holodomore as a genocide: 1)Famine was cause by planned extraction grain and livestock from Ukraine, rest of USSR did not suffer that much, but still many other agrarian centers were push int famine, like Kazachstan, 2) so called "colectivization" was forced by state, basicly that was state land grab and recreation of servitude. Pesants were keep to work on land by force. No migration was allowed, 3)most succesfull farmers were targeted as enemy of state, they were first to be robbed from land and treat as a fellons and send to prisons or labour camps, 4)when famine struck in 1931-1932 USSR sell more grain than any time before, 5) when famine strike on Ukraine, USSR government do not stop force confiscations, food was taken from areas that were starving, 6)Any other region of USSR was struck that hard as Ukraine and that proces take 2 years. If Soviet government was interseted in helping Ukranians, why that famine was so long? It was two years? Not months but years! 7) Stalin need grain and live stock to export them and push his industralization plans. He knew what would happen and he still decide to go along with his plans, 8)There is no way to claim that only nature cause famine in 1932-1933. If that was true why grain export was in the same time so extencive? Why other nations living outside USSR do not suffer it in the same time? 9) And argument about so called sabotage.Who in right mind belive that pesants starve themself? Maybe if you do not count that all food wa taken from them by state?.....
13
@fiatlux4058 Nobody was sent to any concetration camps then. White Russians fought against Reds in Polish-Bolshevik war. After the war they left Poland to West. Any source of your claims?
13
trainbomb Yes communist created puppet state People Republic of Poland. Under strict rule from STALIN and his cronies. You know that Hitler want create a Polish puppet state, but Stalin was against it. And Please, Lenin did not create Ukraine. This land have history and culture with language distinct from Russia. It is existing long before Russia form itself. In reality Kiev was first Ruthenian centrer of culture. Calling that land Litte Russia is manipulation. Russia have no right to dicatate Ukraine anything.
11
@wildylupous There was no deal with Germans. There was an Treaty with Czechoslovakian Government. Bad time to force Czechoslovakians to make it, but in 1920 Czechs do the same. Why you do not wrote about that? Also Hungerians did the same and they take much more. I do not see any criticism of them?
10
@kev492001 Many comentators do not take hostilty of Czechoslovakia to Poland that was present from start of Czevchoslovakian State. It is not like only Poles were in fault there. Czech by whole Mid War tim were hostile to Wrasaw. They used they position in alliance to France and with USSR to damage Poland's international position. They even finance most violent wing of Ukrainian nationalist. Polish government do not have partner to talk in Prauge.
10
@TheWersum Poland was not so cruel to Ukrainians as you put that. Yes there were bad intentions or mistakes caused by nationalistic policy of Polish Government. But on the other side of border Ukrainians were treaten much worse. Starved by Stalin. Treaten as enemy of USSR. Any notion about misstreatment of Ukrainians by Poles could be put in the same policy done also by Czehoslovakia. Which also suppresed Ukrainians as a nation living in their borders. That not is close to colonial politics in Congo. Rather close to German and Russian nationalistic policy from 19th century. And if you want to be fair for historic facts you should wrote that after 1918 new countries were in constqnt war with neibors. All countries push own borders forward. As a example you wrote about Polish-Czech conflict about Cieszyn region. Then why you do not wrote that Czechs take it by force in 1920 when Bolsheviks were on offensive? That is always not mention when people accuse Poland on invading Czehoslovakia.
10
trainbomb This document is from 1971! Today we get new documents, whole archives are open when then most of them were closed. This time (1971) USSR still claim that R-M Pact not contain any secret protocols! Today we knew that was a lie! I will give you example how USSR was commited to alliance with Hitler: In 1939-1940 French communists sabotage war production and provide anti-Allied propaganda. Which was execution of orders from Moscow. French government was forced to disband French Communist Part as a enemy of state! Soviets were in full swing in alliance with Hitler. Whole propaganda was attacking not Nazis, main enemy then were West!
9
trainbomb I give you examples of crimes of Stalin, just like Katyn and Gulags. To way for you that you maybe undertsand how people couldn't trust USSR. As we know today starvation was planed and executed on Stalin order. Yes it was famine, but without natural causes. Strange thing with this famine. In the same time on Polish controled West Ukraine was no famine. No famine in other countries that were neibours with Soviet Union in this time. Strange, really strange. Not mention people like Gareth Jones who was eyewitness cruelty of Soviet regime. You can say what you want but he provide photos to debunk your lie. He was there and see all that. Is example how communist act like nazi and just like them can deney any evidence. Do you claim there was no Holocaust? Or famine in Kazahstan in 1930's? Polish officers killed themself in Katyn in 1940? Or that after "liberation" milions of people were send to camps and prisons as a "enemy of the people"? I do not play victime and never care about that. I just can't stand communist propaganda.
9
trainbomb And if you defend Gulag, why they send also people that were "political criminals"? Nazi took Soviet camps as a example. Forced work, low food rations, political reason of sending people there. Some times you were send there because you were part of nation that were persecuted by communist. Yes communist also send innocent people to Gulag. And you defend them. Do you defend Auschwitz?
9
trainbomb Then read Soviet-Polish Non-aggression Pact (1932): http://www.worldlii.org/int/other/LNTSer/1933/7.html And Polish - German Non Agression Treaty of 1934: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk01.asp Suprise they are basicly the same! Putin lied. What a suprise! Both of Treaties are Non-Agression. Nothing about attacking anybody!
8
trainbomb That is BS logic! Soviets did nothing to help Czechoslovakia.They even send delegation to Munich, but in propoaganda scheme they left it to show how they "defend Czechoslovakia" and did nothing after. And I agree that was mass mistake on Polish side. And Czechoslovakia take that land by force in 1920 and brake agreement with Poland about that! Soviets did not brake Pact to 17th September 1939. Poland do nothing to help Hitler to invade USSR! And what Stalin did? He take isolated in August 1939 Hitler and give him assiatance. In other way Hitler would be fighting alone against Poland, France and UK. Polish government knew that they probably will fall in 1939. But they think that USSR wolud stay neutral. But insteed Stalin make a Pact with Hitler and that was probably main reason why UK nad France do not attack Germany in 1939. They knew the whole document days after was sign!
8
@buckplug2423 Oh is much more complicated. Everybody concetrate on Hitler and Germeny. But in reality main player was Stalin. Also after 1918 and gaining independence Pilsudski never want and see sence in alliance with Germany. Rest was just dynamic of European diplomacy. Why Poland whould made Hitler an enemy when even France and UK did not decide to do this before 1939?
8
@TheWersum Land that Russian Empire take from Polish-Lithuenian Commonwealth? That you mean? Or that the Lviv never was a part of Tsars Empire? Or that Lenin give himself a right to decide who can be independent from Soviet Russia and who would not? Al your argumentation is Bad Poles Good Russians. Which is absurd. History is much more complicated. Today Ukraine and Poland maybe are not a friends but they do not want to be again under Russian rule.
8
@alexatlantov4569 You have very strange logi. In one case you wrote: "Russia was attacked by Poland at its weakest moment, i.e. in the middle of the civil conflict, but that justifies Poles how? " But in the same time you claim: "Actually, in 1920 the so-called Reds WERE, in effect, state power. They commanded almost all the territory and the civil conflict was played out mostly on the country’s peripheries, and mainly due to the multiple interventions in the conflict of foreign powers, Poland included. " Reds were in your opinion weak and strong in the same time. For your enlighment you should know that at 29th August 1918 (even before Poland was independent at 11th November 1918) Lenin declare that Soviet Russia decide to annulment Partition Treaties that liquidate Poland. As such that mean Soviet Russia resign from lands taken in that process from 1772-1795. The same day also Lenin declare Finland's right to independece. As reality Soviet Russian did not control this lands, but that still mean Lenin recreate Polish-Russian border from 1772! The same way works Soviet declaration from 1917 that they recognise independent Ukraine. Then Lenin that way legitimise existing independent Ukraine, but in reality in the same time Bolsheviks try to capture power in Kiev. But they failed. That is real genesis war between Poland, Soviet Russian and Ukraine. In the Lenin's and Bolshevik mind they gve independence this countries, but in reality they planned conquest of them right from the start. There was no good will on Bolshevik's sides. They clearly declare that they want connect Russian Revolution with German and Hungerian Revolutions! "How Russia can’t have a claim on its own territory? Poland wasn’t part of Russia, but Ukraine was. It’s populated by Russians, not by Poles so why Poles should have any claim on it?" Because as Lenin declare recognision of Ukraine independent and in the same time send Red Army on Ukraine, just when Germany capitualated in WW1 is real show of true intention of Bolsheviks. And most Ukraine was populated by Ukrainians on the East and mix on the West. Russians were in minority. Then how they could claim that Ukraine was a part of Russia? Culture and language were different. Not without the reason in 1930's russification was one of priority for Stalin. He murdered milions by starvation and place greate numbers of Russian into this part of USSR. The same strategy was executed after incorporation of Western part of Ukraine in 1939-1941 and after 1945. "LMAO! This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard! Revolution was successful only, and only,because it was supported by 90% of the population. That’s why the Reds won the war in the first place. They outnumbered their enemies by a factor of almost 10!!! Whites and Petluras and other separatists were left without soldiers, common people simply didn’t support them. Now, the level of modern brain-washing of the western people is astounding!" I think that rather you are brainwashed. At only free election to under Bolsheviks give them in 1917 only 25% of votes! 25% against 40% for Socialist Revolutionaries! That is so hilarious that your 90% of support si taken from Bolsheviks imagination and propaganda. That is why they liquidate Russian Constituent Assembly and create dictatorship. Way that Bolsheviks won Civil War was simple. Red Terror and that they enemies were divided. Franco win in Spain without majority suport. You call Petrula separatist, when for Ukrainians he is one of fathers of todays Ukraine. Not Bolshevik's puppets. "Excuse me but that’s as to say that in 1994, in Chechnya Russian Federal troops were one of the many sides of the conflict." Indeed Russian Federation use also in fight some parts of anti-Dudayev opposition forces. In the same time at Dudayev side were coalition of different indpendent poltical forces. There were volontueers from whole Caucasus! And Russia lose that war and in the next use Kadyrow's family to pacificate Chechnia. The in that case Russia was one of sides in that complicated war.
8
trainbomb Tottle and his "because droughts and sabotage". You really use old books that from years are proven lack of scientific value.
7
trainbomb Want talk about witnesses of history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cef_3sfMIGY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QupijTjTQQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIO6zzP-yb8 or historians.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIOjOcydnf8
6
@alexatlantov4569 I see double standard. When Soviet Russia take Vilnus from Poland insteed give it back to Lithuenians, Bolsheviks start creating own communist junta there. The same happened in Ukraine, where Bolsheviks push Petrula's forces from East Ukraine. You forget tomention that in 1919-21 there was Civil War in Russia nad Reds were only one of the sides in that conflict. Also Lenin declare all treaties, including partition of Polish-Lithuenian Commonwealth as non-existing. Not mention Treaty in Brwts-Litovsk with Germans. Soviet Russia do not had any legaal claims for any part of Poland, Ukraine or other countries that appear in 1918. Any claim was done under spreading revolution, which was rejected by most of population.
6
@fiatlux4058 That were internment camps or POW camps. Just like Swiss or Spanish facilitiess in WW2. And if you sugest w that were concetratoon camps you basicly are using long ago debunk Soviet propaganda. Red Cross international comission went to this camps and find any shred of evidence of abuse or intentcional kilings in that camps. There is even reports about that from this Commision. Sorry but you do not know real situation. Most of deaths there was caused by epidemic that were also kiling Poles. I remind you that Poland was destroyed by 4 years of heavy fighting in WW1. That was the same level of attricion like in Soviet Russia. Famine, dessises were norm in this time.
6
@Melchersson There were some instances of anti-German sentiments. But when in Poland to the 1939 were legal German organisation, in the same timenazi persecuted Polish minority in Germany. Abuse of Germans wasa propaganda myth.
5
Heinrich Dering I am not a fan of Rydz-Smigly but there is no evidence that he order any killings of German civilians or POW. Maybe you think about members of German V column in Poland. Polish citizens of German origin who act as non-uniformed special forces under Abwher control. Because they were attacking Polish Army and were that way breaking international laws of war. As a non-combatants their actions were punished by death.
5
Heinrich Dering You mean when Luftwaffe for a YEAR bomb civilian targets and Allied governments protest and warned Germans that if they do not stop this tactics, they would respond with the same? And in the end they respond. That is typical neonazi propaganda. Not mention there was no conetration camps for German POW. They even were dying in large numbers. This is another lie.
5
@alexatlantov4569 "Are you in second grade? It’s childish. Strongness isn’t an absolute concept. Compared to their enemies in the civil war (like Whites) the Reds were strong,mostly because they were overwhelmingly supported by ordinary people, and that is why they ruled the country and its affairs. But on the international arena the country was week due to the disarray of the revolution and the war. Industrial, agricultural and financial systems were in shambles and needed years to be repaired. As a result the Red army was extremely underfed, underclothed, undersupplied etc. Extreme shortage of munitions was the case. Especially artillery. While at the same time the Whites and the Poles were abundantly supplied by the West,but still disgracefuly lost the war." Civil War take nearly 6 years! For most time that was dynamic conflitc. If Poles want to help Whites they would struck at autumn of 1919. When Reds were in the worst possiable position. Surrunded by attacking Whites and with mass rebelions at rears. Yes Soviet were not loved as you claim. They were on road to disaster. Then Poles stop ofensive, when there was any significant forces of Reds against them. In the same time France and UK try force Poles to attack and finish Bolsheviks. But Pilsudski didn't agree. He prefer wait and do not help Whites, because they were biggest treat for Poland. And Polan also was destroyed by war and German-Asutrian occupation. "1917 only 25% of votes! 25% against 40% for” Lol.This is toooo simple even for a second grader. In 1917 nobody new Bolsheviks that’s why they got 25%. And even 25 is rather much under such light. But the real election started when it was for people to decide for whom,out of multiple sides, to join the fight in the civil war. Most people chose Bolshevik – by then everyone already knew them – and that is REAL and the only one legitimate election. People were free to go to fight for Whites, for Petlura, for Kolchak,Denikin, Wrangel, for whomever they liked, but they chose REDS. You are again in the water, my friend" Not simple, but significant. In only real free election Bolsheviks were only with 25% of votes. AGAIN 40% FOR SOCIALIST REVOLUTIONIST. That is why Bolsheviks disband Russian Constituent Assembly. Bolsheviks like many before and after them recognise only election that they win. Calling civil war an from of election is so stiupd that need comment. Using your logic Franco won because he was choose majority. Or Pilsudski in 1926 won because he was so popular? There is so many examples in history when "good dictator" become ruler because he disband instututions and claim will of the people. Just like Napoleon and Hitler...... Bolsheviks won because they dowhatever they need to do to keep them in power. Unrest like Tambov Rebellion 1918-1921 or Kronstadt rebellion proves that Soviet were hated for their terror and dictatorship. "You’re so incompetent I don’t even have words!!! No,Russia didn’t lose the war. Grozny had been taken at least three times. The problem with civil wars that it’s not enough to win them militarily,you have to heal the deep civil wounds, and that is much more harder to do,and the opportunity popped up only when Kadyrov family came up. What do you think we should’ve done in 1996? To kill 100% chehens? To nuke them? Of course anglo-saxons would’ve done exactly that! But Russians are not beasts. We chose to reconcile, so the problem had been just frozen in 1996, and was solved three years later.It was wise and humane." Taking Grozny? First attack was dissaster. Later operations of federal army were tottaly mockery of warfare, Warcimes, genocide of Chechens. Destrucion of infrastrucure of reoublic. All that only in first war which Russia lose. vidence was that federal army reatreat from republic. Second war was started under false pretence that Chechens commit terror attacks. In reality that was false flag operations done by FSB! Agents of FSB were captured by militia on one of site where attack were done in city of Ryazan! FSB claim that were exercises! How look both wars we can read from relations of brave journalist like Anna Politkovskaya. Murdered by writing truth about war crimes in Chechnia. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/mar/05/russia.chechnya https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/who-really-did-kill-russian-journalist-anna-politkovskaya-9535772.html Russia Army act in Chechnia like nazi, killing civilians and commiting other war crimes. I have chance o talk with soldier frim Russian Army and he said that was genocide and he is haunted by attrocieties he see in this war done by federal army. There is multiply evidence and testimonies from Chechens, Russians that sow how Putin's administration sanction genocide of citizens of Republic. Then do not claim that federal forces act with no contempt for life of civilians.
5
@fiatlux4058 No at all. Camps were visited by Red Cross and other international organisation. Non of them report abuse or misstreatment in this camps. Red POW and White had the same rations like Polish soldiers, also medical treatmen was on best level that was possiable in this time in country that was devasteated by WW1.
5
You should maybe look on that the Soviet were spreading revolution accusing everybody else that they aggressive against Soviet Russia. Old Soviet lie, accusse the victime of aggression as a aggressor. Just like Finland were aggressive in 1939 against USSR.
4
Heinrich Dering I can say the same about you. Difference between us is that I do not spread conspiracy and neonazi? propaganda.. You bring "warcrimes" but in reality you vision isndistorted by your bias.
4
@Mousoroque Poles go to Kiev at Petrula's call when Red Army was going to crush independent Ukraine. Even when Polish-Ukrainian conflict was still a thing Pilsudski decide to help Petrula. That was only way to prevent crushing Poland by Reds after they crush Whites in Civil War. By the way Pilsudski do not help Whites when was push to do that by France and UK. But in the end it was too late to save Ukraine. And Polish right wing parties do not want Ukraine, they belive in deal with Russia, Red or White. They basicly sabotage Pilsudski project to create confederation Poland, Bielarus, Baltic States to counter Bolshevik march to West. Stalin's action was wrong not because he invade Poland. But because he help Hitler and provide him resources that give Hitler chance to fight with West. How stiupid that was Hitler show Stalin at 22nd June 1941.
3
@CalebNorthNorman Then take a point in that Soviet Russia form peace with Germany. And do not want pay for war materials that were provided by Entante in WW1. Versalies was imposible without Lenin's betrayal of own country. How anybody forget about that?
3
@alexatlantov4569 Lokking on your arguments is no sence to disscuss with you. Example:"“Taking Grozny? First attack was dissaster.” Here again plays either your militarist incompetency or lack of knowledge altogether. There wasn’t any FIRST attack, in the first place. If you mean by that the New Years night of 1995 it was just entering of troops in Grozny without any resistance whatsoever – so… NO ATTACK. It was a trap, of course, coordinated by Chechen separatists together with Moscow, because in those times oligarchs ruled Russia practically directly from Kremlin." Sensing tanks without any real support into town by general Pavel Grachov was example of of conspiracy by "...coordinated by Chechen separatists together with Moscow, because in those times oligarchs ruled Russia practically directly from Kremlin." No comments on that. Because that idiocy do not need comments. Rest of your argumentation is just like listening Soviet propaganda or todaye "news" from Russia. Lenin, Stalin and communism, were tagedy for Russia. Whole civil war could be stopped and another 5 years of desrtucin could never happen. But German agent Lenin want power and that why he start it. Constitution Assembly was not any way created in "fake elections". But if you want to belive that, that is your problem.
3
Many army use biplanes and cavalery.... Wermacht did. But Polish cavalry chargig tanks is a myth. And in contex of WW2 Polish Army was quite effective. Only in 1939 Poland was seen as a weak opponent. After Fall of France or first months of Nazi-Soviet war Polish defence in 1939 is do not look that bad.
3
@daboyz6106 Yes they were different. But both ideology comit genocide and many other crimes.
2
@jamesbeeching4341 "Surely re-aquisition??? The eastern Polish lands were originally part of the Soviet Union!" No they were not. Some of them were part of Russian Empire, but only for 123 years after taking them by Russia in Partition of Polish-Lithuenian Commonwealth. Plus Lviv never was a part of Russian Empire!
2
@simplicius11 Check how much Soviet special forces were operatinga against Poland or Finland. Both countries were forced to create special border units to stop infiltration of border. And fun fact Ukrainian nationalist terorrism was sponsored by Prauge. Poland was responding with support for Slovak independence. And yes Polish internal policy against minorities presented by Ukrainians and Bielarusians was stiupid.
2
@CloneDAnon Not really. Stalin knew that Hitler was too weak to fight with UK, France and USSR in the same time. He could just sit and wait that Hitler run out of oil. Insteed decide to help Hitler. That paint different picture. A plan of spreading communism across Europe, when Germany and Allied would fight eachother. He played both Hitler and London with Paris. Even with 100% captured Poland in the end Hitler was any treat for Stalin. Wehrmacht from 1939 is not Wehrmacht from 1941.
2
The same you can say about what Czechoslovakia done in 1920.. Zaolzie/Cieszyn were disputed terittory. If Poland were cooperate with Germans would give Poland more than this small patch of land.
2
@troltrolkovic6113 About Gdanssk/Danzig. This city for hundreds of years was Polish, even with domination on German speaking population. And fun fact Danzig in 1939 was only used by Hitler as a negotiation point. Poland just want to o protect own interest in city. And I know how and why Cieszyn region was so problematic. Even communist in 1945 were ready to go to war against Czechs to take it back. But Stalin need freindly government in Prauge then.
2
Heinrich Dering What crimes against Germans? Now you create exccuse for Hitler.
2
Heinrich Dering What crimes? Name one example?
2
@i-etranger Funny I am a Pole :) And I understand how much my ancestores fucked up.
2
@alexatlantov4569 Not mention that Bolsheviks were German agents acting against Russia fighting with Germany... Maybe I am old fashioned but that is treason of own state!
2
@alanpennie8013 I agree. We to many times use hindsight when we talk about history. It is seriuos mistake, because in decision making you use only information you have. In 1939 Stalin was known for his genocidal practice, Hitler was leaving his plans for future.
2
PiousCoding Show that Pact. I know that you cant because it do not exist.
2
@a.f.w.froschkonig2978 If both you neibors want destroy you, you look for allied against that. Did Poland any way in 1939 show aggression against USSR. No they do not. Did Poland do not want to join Germany in invasion on USSR. No they do not. Soviets know that and insted stay neutral, if they want peace. They give Hitler what he want. Way out from strategic isolation that Hitler find himself in 1939.
2
trainbomb was the same like Polish-Soviet Pact from 1932. Why you do not talk about that?
1
@i-etranger "the famine wasn't just in Ukraine, it was everywhere" Nope it was caused by Soviet poliecies and it was only in USSR in this time. . Somehow USSR WAS STILL EXPORTING GRAIN!
1
@i-etranger Hitler demands were send after Poland rejected offer of war against West and USSR!
1
@roberthansen5727 Then show us this document or deal? Pleas where is it?
1
@roberthansen5727 Not the same scale and not the same reasons.
1
@healthmain In reality alll Soviet citizens were prisoners of the system. They can't travel between cities withouit permits. Any decent of oficial policy of government was punish by prison or even death. To be send to Gulag you have to be just declaed "enemy of the people". In 1937-1938 NKVD murdered over 100 000 Poles living in USSR. Just for beeing Polish. You have no idea what you are comparing.
1
@aksmex2576 Soviets just before WW2 killed over 100000 ethnic Poles. 2 YEARS BEFORE HITLER START A WAR!
1
@valcarlin2537 USSR in all characteristics was just Russian Empire 2.0. New name, new menagment and old ideas and ways. Just much moe brutal and inhumane.
1
@colder5465 Main reason for Hitler was that he did not get his alliance with Poland. Yes he hates Slavs, but fiorst he awant use Poland to secure Germany from USSR attack.
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@JWang-qi6lz Kevin you are basicly using old Russian propaganda. Always when Russia want to take over some country they spread lies about history and today situation. Look like Russia grab parts of China, basicly using the same lies. You wrote that Poland today is messing in Ukraine? Did Poland annexed any Ukraine territory today? Did Poland send unmarked and ununiformed forces on Ukraine soil and create rebelion on Ukraine? In both cases no. Putin and Russia did! Then you accuse country that want today help to keep independent Ukraine using arguments of Putin. Guy who invade few countries. Guy who murder reporter and critic of his regime. And again Poland do not invade Soviet Russia. Both side clashes on Ukraine soil. And Polish forces were invited by Petrula's government to defend independent Ukraine from Bolsheviks invasion. Off course Poland did it to defend own independence too. If Poland was interested in action against Bolsheviks, they would attack when Bolsheviks were losing to Whites. Buy they did not! Also if you want talk about aggression and bad faith, ask yourself how it possiable that in 1937 Soviets murdered over 100 000 Poles. They murdered them just because they were Poles. 1937! How Polish government could trust Stalin after that?
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Any independent country between Russia and Germany is "treat" and "nationalistic" because is in a way of creation of empire by Germans or Russians. Polish-Lithuenian Commonwealth were partitioned because it was weakened by 200 years of wars and crisis. Hungary were partioned by Turks and Austrians. Your logic is flawed that Versalies Trety is responsiable for existing of Poland or other Central and Southern Europeans countries. If that was true countries like Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary or Romania would seize to exists after WW2. And Third Reich alliance with USSR was against UK, France and USA in long term, not against only Poland!
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@StephenYuan 1)Then what with Serbia or Romania, Grecce or Bulgaria, this countries didn't exist much longer than Poland? Poland exist as a state from 966 to 1795. Later you have semi-independent Duchy of Warsaw 1807-1815 and Congress Poland 1815-31. Modern Germany exist as such from 1871 as a country. Your argument as such is invalid. Poles have the same right to recreate own country in 1918 like Germans in 1871. And Holy Roman Empire of German Nation never posses lands that was dispiuted with Poland by Hitler. Silesia was Czech, later Austrian. Wielkopolska was a center of Polish state from begining. Ther is a lot history that you probably do not know. It is any way possiable that imperial politics of Russia or Germany is possiable if there is independent Poland. That is why Hitler and Stalin both want to destroy or control Poland. Today you can see the same imperial logic in Russian policy against indepenence of Ukraine and Bielarus. Putin even suggest that both of this countries should not be independent and should be part of Russian Federation. Old trick from Russian propaganda. 2)And I do not argue with you here, Poland was main target. But other countries like Romania, Baltic States and Finland. Basicly two totalitarian state decide to shape Europe and world. Invasion on Poland was trigger, but in reality UK and France decide to defend own position in the world.
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@StephenYuan Not really. British were very much against strong Poland. They still count on Whites win in Russian Civil War. Also they do not want see any strenthening France position. Also they affraid that independent Poland will weaken to much Germany. That is why Danzing become independent, not a part of Poland. For British diplomacy new countries like Poland, Finland or Baltic States rather weaken Russia, still potencial ally for them. And you tottaly forgett a USA role in creating support for Polish independence. 200 years of imperial European politics was going to the bin by WW1 destroying potencials of great powers like Germany, UK, France, Russia not mention Austro-Hungary. When they lose control, nations oppressed by empiers rise up. For Germans or Russians WW1 was tragedy because cost them epmires, for Poland, Finland, Czechoslovakia and others that was time of regaining independence. Aggressive empiers nee one generation to rebuild potencial. And still they can't suppresse nation states that regain existenze after WW1. "It seems pretty self evident to me at least that Poland's very creation, from what was Germany and Russian territory, was intended by the Western powers was a counterweight to both of those countries. Polish nationalism was, from the very beginning, a pawn in the central european Great power game between Germany, the Soviet Union, and the two headed beast of France and the UK. The geopolitical order that came out of Versailles was meant to check and contain both. UK foreign policy was designed to pit Central Europeans against each other, in order to prevent them from turning their attention in a Westerly direction." That statment tottaly miss the dynamics of Mid-War Years politics. Border wars between new countries were out of control of UK and France. Russian Civil War too. USA were back to isolationism and old powers were too weak to any significant intervention. System created in 1815 was long dead in 1918. To create new borders and international system even winniners of WW1 were forced to observe situation. Greate powers lose way to project power on smaller nations for whole generation. Even winners were to weak to force sides in border wars to just accept any demands of UK or France. When sides of wars were exausted only then Allied could force them to sign peace. Look on situation of Romania nad Hungary. Or Finland and Baltic States. Seeing politics of region as play of UK and France diplomacy is tottaly ahistorical.
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@StephenYuan "It seems pretty self evident to me at least that Poland's very creation, from what was Germany and Russian territory, was intended by the Western powers was a counterweight to both of those countries." And that statment show lack of undertsanding how weak Russia and Germany become after WW1. Break up of Austo-Hungary also was decisive here. And lands you attribiute to Germany or Russia were part of their territory just because they were in big portion taken from Poland in 18th century in partitions. Just take a look onmap from start of 18th century! Plus using your logic any country that regain of indepedence in 1918 was created on someones territory. Which is not true. Nations like Ukrainians or Bielarusians were crash between Poland and Soviet Russia. They lose because they didn't create fast enough civil strucures that occure in Poland and in Czechoslovakia. Army wasn't enough to defend independence.
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@BrotherKramer Oh Stalin knew very well howw eak are Germans and Allied. Not without reason Soviet inteligence was active everywhere. And Operation Unthinkable was optioin only if Stalin do not act with his promises about democratic governments in conquered countries. I think you unerestimated Stalin cunning. He was most ruthless and inteligent lider. Sad that he was so mad and cruel one.
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@Vlad79500 You claims about conditions of Soviet POW in Polish hand were long debunked as a lie. It was done by Red Cross and Leauge of Nation commisions. They stated in their reports that POW from Red Army were keep in condition that were best possiable in tragic situation of Polish State, destroyed by war and occupation. Polish even removed one of the commanding officer who abuse Soivet POW. No war crimes were commited o the large scale on Soviet POW.
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@troltrolkovic6113 You should read about history to have opinions. Not formulated them on shreds of informations. Gdansk/Danzing for hundred of years was Polish city with German majority. Majority that prefer be in Poland than in Prussia. What they show in last years of Polish-Lithuenian Commonwealth. When Poland stop to exist city was part of Prussia and later Germany. But in historic context city was for longer time a part of Poland. Whit German majority or without it. In contex of WW2 Hitler used a city status as a protectorate of Leauge of Nation under Polish supervision, but not under Polish rule as a exccusse to black mail Poland into submision. Poland after building Gdynia do not need Gdansk as a port. But Hitler demands put Gdansk/Danzing into spot again. Polish politician were even ready give up Gdansk and give Germans a free pass trough corridor. But not when rest demands made Poland a satelite state to Third Reich. Not after the same way Germany swallows Czechoslovakia. That was significant role of Gdansk in that situation.
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@troltrolkovic6113 in 1939 that was German city. But Hitler pack all his demands with Danzig case, making whole list not possiable to accept by Warsaw.
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@maximkretsch7134 Eh Soviets never hide their eager push to connect with German communists and pushing communist revolutions arround the Europe. And fights started because Soviets pushed West after reating German Army.
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@colder5465 Funny thing that Poland did not strike Bolsheviks when they were most open for attack? Russian Whites even accused Polse of supporting Bolsheviks by non-actions. Not mention that Lenin made claime that nations have right to slef-determination. As he show later he understand that by only be self-determination when they would be ruled by communists serving Lenin's as ruler.
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Wow? Then whole Soviet-German military cooperation done from 1920's was aim in first place against Poland? Soviet official stance that they support revolution against any government if it is communist revolution! Or that the in 1932 USSR and Poland sign Anty-aggression Pact in fact the same as a signed by Poland and Third Reich in 1934. And both of them had no secret protocols! And claiming that Poland was semi-fashist state is cute in comparision to Soviet Russia murdering in millions own citizens, as claiming that they were liberated......
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@alexatlantov4569 1) It is just evidence that Germany never rejected war against neirbours. Any peace offering was just way to missled them. Just like USSR. Officialy interested in peace, but in reality building army to invade independent neirbours. Poland did not invade Russia in 1918-21. That was war on Ukraine and Bielarus. Soviet Russia give itself right to decide in name of this nations, never asking them about that. Soviets even created Polish Revoultionary Committe in 1920 as a Soviet junta for Poland. And if Pilsudski want to destroy Lenin's regime he would help Denikin in his offensive. But for Poles both Red and Whites were enemies, because both of them weren't interested in letting Poles to create independent Poland. Stalin prove that crushing Polish indepence after WW2. Soviets give enough evidence of their imperialism to not trust them. 2)There is enough evidence. Holomodor. Mass graves of Polish Officers in Katyn, Miednoye and other places.Massive deportations against whole nations before WW2 and after it! Great Purge... It is sad when in one sentence Red Army is named weak because Greate Purge, when in second sentence some claim that there was no Purge.. Trotsky killed himself whit hammer in Mexico?
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@lucioagelvis2134 Not the citizenship but specific conditions of this genocide is important. They were killed just because they were Poles. There are testimonies that people were pick up from telephone books because NKVD run out from Poles in their lists!
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Maybe we should ask question, how Stalin's aggressive policies nearly destroy USSR in 1941-1942.
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Polish-Soviet 1932 Pact :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soviet-Polish_Non-aggression_pact_1932.pdf
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@brucealbert4686 That Treaty was basicly identical as Polish-Soviet form 1932. Both of them forbbid any action with 3rd party against participants of this Treaties. Which mean that Poland keep own part, not joining Hitler against USSR. Polish-German Pact is just use as a disstraction from real meaning R-M Pact. It is classical whatabouthism.
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Poland was proposing earlier to Germans a exteritorial passage to Prussia. Case of Danzig is more complicated, because involved protectorate of Leauge of Nation over Danzing. Whole case of corridor is much more complicated. But after seeing liike Hitler treat Czechoslovakia only idiot would belive in Hitler's proposal.
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@seylaw I will give you logical response that should be clear for you. Any German demands were end of Hitler's plan of expansions. Czechs give him Sudetenland and agree for his all demands. And he still invade them. Poland was to big and to impoortant in Hitler plans to leave it in any portion of independence. Even if they would agree for his demands, Hitler would demand more and more. Look he take Klaipėda/Memel from Lithuenia and claim that is all his demands for Lithuenians, but in R-M Treaty still whole Lithuenia was considered as a German prize. In reality if Poland accept Hitler demands, which most was just a way to make Poland a vasal state to Germany, still there will be a war. But this time Poland would be German's "ally" and Soviet would still attack, but now as an allied of France and UK. In any case Poland was in the way between Hitler and Stalin And any of them want to see independent Poland. Look what Stalin play as a strategic game, any of his "alllies" was forced in the end give him parts of Poland that he can't win i war against Poland itself. Stalin like Hitlker wasn't intersted in peace. Not for that he build biggest army and military-industrial complex in the 1930's world.
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@seylaw That is not the point. Point was that Hiter assurances were worth nothing. Null. zero... After Anshluss and occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1939 any proposal by Hitler was treated as valid. And I agree that Stalin never was interested in pece in Europe and his goal was war and revolution in Europe.
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